USA – -(Ammoland.com)- The 10mm Auto, sometimes referred to as the “357 of the Auto Pistol World”, has experienced a resurgence of late. Since its development in the 1980s, the 10mm found sudden popularity only to stagnate and shrink, but now the 10 is back with more pistols and ammunition than ever before. With that increased popularity comes truths and myths surrounding the round . . .
Semi-automatic pistol rounds are generally power-limited. The size and shape of the round must fit into a practical grip. That limits how much lead and powder can be on board. Revolvers don’t have that problem and magnum cartridges have been the mainstay of handgun power since the beginning. But the 10mm promises magnum-like power in a semi-auto platform along with all the benefits of that platform: faster reloads, more ammunition before reloading, ect.
10mm Auto vs. 357 Magnum
There is talk about the 10 being as powerful as the 41 Magnum. This is all talk about pressure curves on a graph where the hottest 10mm met the lowest pressure 41 Magnum rounds. A fairer comparison for the 10mm is the original magnum cartridge, the 357 Magnum.
With that question in mind, it was time for my favorite past time—a ballistics gel test.
.357 Magnum A Brief History
By the 1920s, American law enforcement turned away from their various 32 caliber revolvers then common in service for the much more powerful 38 Special cartridge. Despite being high powered for its day, the 38 Special showed some weaknesses early in the Gangster-era. It didn’t always work when defeating obstacles like steel automobile bodies, auto glass, and surplus bullet proof vests worn by the up and coming motor bandits that used more force than finesse in their crimes.
Higher pressure 38 Special revolvers and larger handguns to handle the round resulted until it was decided to develop a brand-new cartridge, the slightly longer yet much more powerful 357 Magnum. The year was 1935 and it became the most powerful handgun cartridge of its time with a 158 grain bullet traveling at about 1400 feet per second. Magnum revolvers were favored by law enforcement for many years since until they were retired for increasingly reliable, higher capacity semi-automatic pistols. Even so, the 357 Magnum ammo remains popular and is a gold standard of handgun power.
10mm Auto Ammunition
As the magnum revolver was puffing along in the 1980s, there was a desire for a semi-automatic pistol with similar power. Thus the 10mm Auto was born, firing a 40 caliber bullet at the same speed as the 357 Magnum. In the aftermath of the 1986 Miami Shootout, the FBI sought to replace their 357 Magnum revolvers and lower-powered 9mm auto-pistols with the 10mm. It promised more power than the 9mm while being faster to reload than the revolvers in standard service at the time. It was found that the new 10mm pistols were hard to control and the round was downloaded and eventually necked down to make the 40 S&W round.
The 10mm fell into obscurity with few pistols and few ammunition makers producing for the round. But in 2018, demand is higher and the 10mm is finally getting its due as an excellent hunting and defensive cartridge.
The 357 Magnum and the 10mm Auto come in a variety of loadings, but the larger 40 caliber bullet of the 10mm affords it somewhat heavier projectiles in factory loads. The 10 is often found using 180 grain bullets while the 357 uses a 125 grain bullet. Heavy grain bear-type loads range up through 200 grains for the 10 and 180 with the 357, so there is much overlap.
10mm Auto vs. 357 Magnum : The Test
In our head to head contest, I selected the same brand of ammunition with as close to the same weight of bullet as possible. The guns selected are as close as possible in barrel length so as to not unfairly skew the results to one end of the camp to the other. Hornady offer’s their Custom line with a 158 grain XTP bullet for the 357 Magnum and a 155 grain XTP for the 10mm. While the 158 grain weight is fairly standard for a 357, the 155 grain bullet used in the 10mm is slightly light in its typical range.
The test firearms are the Glock 29 Gen 4 in 10mm and the Smith & Wesson Model 27 in 357 Magnum. The Glock sports a 3.77 inch barrel vs the 4 inch barrel on the Smith. This is as close as I could get in factory guns and ¼ of an inch won’t make much difference in velocity.
That was proven true when I fired both rounds through the chronograph on two separate occasions during two test runs of each ammunition. Despite having a shorter barrel, the 10mm was slightly faster.
Hornady Custom 10mm 155 grain XTP – 1345 feet per second
Hornady Custom 357 Magnum 158 grain XTP – 1264 feet per second
*five shot average of shots
On paper with these comparable loads, the 10mm is slightly faster with an 81 feet per second advantage. That is much when we are talking about handgun velocities. But how would that translate in ballistic gel?
I lined up a Clear Ballistics 10% ordinance gel block and got to work. The block was covered with four layers of denim, which is an FBI protocol. The optimal performance of a round is 12-18 inches of penetration to consider quartering shots, bone, ect. I started by firing the 357 Magnum round from close distance to assure a square hit. It zipped through the sixteen inch block. I needed to double up.
I added a second block, which caught the follow-up projectile. The 10mm had no such trouble as it was stopped in the first block.
The 10mm round expanded to .70 inch, flattening out impressively, and stopping at the 16 inch mark. The first five inches of its wound tract opened to an inch and a half before abruptly terminating into a straight path until the bullet came to rest.
The 357 Magnum’s smaller 9mm bullet mushroomed slightly to .54 inches and traversed 22 inches of gel. Both 357 Magnum tracts showed inch-wide cavities out to the first nine inches of the block.
The 357 Magnum over penetrated and did more damage further on than the 10mm, however the 10mm round dumped its energy into the first block with respectable damage just inside the entrance wound.
The 357 Magnum’s smaller diameter will make for an inherently longer projectile or higher ballistic coefficient. This allowed it to penetrate deeper despite its lower velocity. The greater penetration was also aided by the lack of deformation of the hollow-point due to that slightly lower velocity. The 10 performed as advertised and its extra velocity helped to flatten out the projectile.
So Who Wins?
We could go on to test a variety of different loadings of 10mm and 357 Magnum, but in this head to head taking into account as many variables to the experiment as possible what can be concluded is that both rounds live up to their respective reputations with much overlap between them depending on what load you choose.
After shooting both rounds through the chronograph, I was convinced that the 10mm would outperform the 357, given its velocity advantage with the same weight of bullet. What we got was a bullet that nearly doubled in diameter and violent expansion without overpenetration. The 357 exceeded the recommended maximum of eighteen inches.
However, it appears that the 357 Magnum’s damage was greater for a longer stretch of the wound than the 10. In the big picture, the 10mm will throw a slightly heavier bullet at the same speeds that the 357 will launch a lighter grain bullet. We can see in this head-to-head that the 10mm retains a very slight advantage in terms of energy, but the 357’s overall longer bullet gives it the edge for penetrating power.
The 10mm vs. 357 contest isn’t Mayweather vs McGregor. It is nearly too close to call—nearly. Like with any boxing match, there is more to the story and the opponents that is sometimes not taken into consideration.
It appears time is the 357’s best friend and why I give it the edge in the contest. You can find 357 Magnum revolvers readily—new and used. Any big box store that deals ammunition is bound to have 357 Magnum defensive ammunition. 10mm ammunition is hard to find and when you find it, it is often more expensive per box than 357s.
Many common 10mm loadings are weakly loaded compared to the round’s true potential and many off the shelf brands are seldom more powerful than the 40 S&W. Despite increasing demand, 10mm pistols are hard to find and they tend to cost a premium when found.
However, if you choose the 10 you gain the inherit advantages of automatic pistols, greater ammunition capacity and simpler reloads. No matter what platform you choose, I doubt you will be disappointed. Did I miss anything? Let me know which round you would choose in a 10mm Auto vs. 357 Magnum head to head?
About Terril Hebert:
Terril Hebert is a firearm writer native to south Louisiana. Under his motto-Guns, Never Politics-he tackles firearm and reloading topics both in print and on his Mark3smle YouTube channel, where he got his start. Terril has a soft spot for ballistics testing, pocket pistols, and French rifles. When he is not burning ammo, he is indulging his unhealthy wildlife photography obsession or working on his latest novel. Scourge of God, published in 2017. See more from Terril on youtube under Mark3smle
Like I said, 2018 is “The Year of the 10mm!” TM. 😉
While the cartridges are similar in power the is no comparison in the capacity and weight categories. The G29 holds 10 + 1 and accepts the G20 15 round mags. The highest capacity in a 357 mag revolver is 8. The G29 is also much lighter. There are lightweight 357s but they aren’t as much fun to shoot and are still bulkier than a semi-auto.
You do realize that not everything is about ammo capacity don’t you? Many of us expect to hit our target with the first few rounds, and don’t really care about the 15th. Plus, the ammo capacity issue was already mentioned in the article, more than once, so why do you feel the need to call attention to it, yet again? Are you feeling a little bit defensive about this perhaps?
It’s not like everybody doesn’t ALREADY know autoloaders carry more ammo, in most cases. Is there ANYBODY out there that thinks that revolvers hold more ammo than semis? Its just that many do not care, even though it seems to be the foremost issue FOR YOU. That is fine, care about whatever you want, but others do not share your passion for capacity.
Have a cup of coffee brother! Regardless of what the article says the G29 is lighter than the revolver. Capacity is a nice bonus. And it is slimmer in width. You can enjoy whatever you like. I am not trying to convince you otherwise.
Cordially, Texican
The 10mm is not that difficult of a round to control and even more so in an all metal frame.
I hope u never in a mob situation with your 8 rounds
This is exactly why I often carry two pistols with me , particularly if I foresee a mob effect situation occurring . It’s my PMR 30 and my 357 Black Hawk and I always carry an extra 6 and an extra mag for the PMR , so 72 covers me until I can get to my truck .
I have taken a serious look at the new Ruger SR 10 mm , and let’s just say I way past the petting stage .
@ Kenneth
“Many of us expect to hit our target with the first few rounds . . . ”
Check the stats on gunfights and you might find that (although a hit might be scored in the immediate opening of a close-quarters gunfight) another hit might not occur for the next five rounds, and, thereafter [barring fatal hits] a gunfight devolves into an exchange of Lead (Pb).
Sorry. Should have compared a 125 gr or 135 g loading as well.
158 grain 357 loading are generally under powered compared to 125 loads.
158 g 357 are toward the heavy end. Factory 180g 357 are pretty pathetic in the velocity department.
Looking at one shot stops – the 125 grain 357 cant be beat , only equalled.
The FBI move to 10mm was a knee jerk reaction. Then when agents could handle the recoil of the 10mm, they had em down loaded. S&W said “we can get those velocities in a short 10mm” and the 40 was born.
Now, officers dont qualify well the 40, so the FBI decided new bullet technology has made the 9mm the perfect caliber.
Until the next Miami shootout ……. same as it ever was .
‘158 grain 357 loading are generally under powered compared to 125 loads.’
Most of both loads are under powered. That 1400fps is still a full pow er 158gr load from a 4″ ba rrel but most loads have been dropped down to 1200-1250fps. Similar downloading with the 125grs.
The Remington 125 is still pretty hot (not the Golden Saber).
Federal seems to go back and forth on hot vs not.
Hornady 125 defense gets over 1325 on my chrono.
I do ha e some Geco 357 158 that goes 1400 out of a 4 inch bbl.
The easy solution is Corbon or Buffalo Bore but that gets pricey.
Rolling your own, it is no problem to get full velocity for practice.
That Rem load is my zombie apocalypse rou nd. Either UMC or the HTP ca n be found pretty cheap. Cheap enough to use for practice am mo. For the full pow er stuff I would prefer a 140gr since I don’t think you’ll get good penetration at all with the 125 at higher velocities. But nobody makes one of those loads so I use Double Tap 158gr SJHP for my primary self defense rou nd. Even from my 3″ GP 100 I’m probably getting over 1300fps, at home it’s probably 1500fps from the 6″. Still a buck a rou nd though so I’ll do a cylinder and move on to the cheap stuff at the ra nge. Underwood and Atomic make some hot loads a little cheaper but I’ve never used them.
I think they made the Golden Saber load for people who bought airweights or LCRs and found out that even the modest loads kick like a mule.
Guv. Buffalo Bore was making a 140 grain copper load for the magnum. Have they quit?
You might be right, but they’re probably even more $$$ and I’m kind of partial to SJHPs. They also make a low recoil round in 140gr. but that’s pretty mild.
They Golden Saber load was developed to give 1250-1300 from a 4 inch bbl and not produce the donut fireball the 357 is famous for. It works pretty well but you can get 1200 or so from a Snub 357 with the Remington 125 SJHP.
My old go-to, do-all load was the Winchester Silvertip 145 HP. It gave good velocity and accuracy in 4 to 6 inch barrels. It was also the most accurate load in my Marlin carbine and hit around 2000 fps. It is impressive on deer.
On 125 penetration, i have killed three deer with the 357 in a revolver. The 158 JSP slid through both sides. The 158 JHP opened and went all the way through. The 125 SJHP opened and looked like a bot larvae under the skin on the opposite side. YMMV.
On deer or anthing lesser animal, i dont think it matters – 125, 140, or 158. On bear, I think i want a 158 and probably a cast bullet.
Sounds about right on the deer. I’m assuming those are broadside lung shots? Ran ge will make a big difference as well, especially with the 125gr.
On bear I’d want 180gr hard cast. If I had to face a grizzly with a .357 I’d want a 200gr.
The 135 Gold Dots are low velocity bullets and will come apart at higher velocities. The petals get pulled right off.
One (for lack of a better term) failure of the test was the bullet weights used. For the .357 magnum a 158 grain bullet is the heaviest standard load for the cartridge, in 10mm a 155 grain bullet is a light load for the cartridge. A better test would be a 158 grain .357 magnum vs a 180 grain 10mm, both are heavy for their cartridge.
The author could also benefit from learning the difference between ballistic coefficient and sectional density. BC is the one to use for external ballistics, not terminal. SD is the stat that mostly determines penetration. He should also research the date that “surplus bullet proof vests” became available on the market. Despite perhaps sounding good in his next novel, it wasn’t in the 1930s.
But this is a repost from another site, so its unlikely that he will even see these comments, much less care.
There are a lot of 180gr factory loads in .357 and even a few 200gr. Sectional density wise though that 155 is actually lower than a 125gr .357. .357 allows for much higher SD bull ets so for a woods gu n where bears, cougars, etc might roam the .357 would be a better choice.
“The Glock sports a 3.77 inch barrel vs the 4 inch barrel on the Smith.”
It sounds like you aren’t accounting for the difference between autos and revolvers in how barrel length is measured. Revolver barrel length does not include the cylinder (chamber). Autoloader barrel length does include the chamber. It would be more appropriate to either remove the case length from the autoloader’s barrel length, or add the overall cartridge length to the revolver’s barrel length, in order to provide an accurate comparison of barrel length between the two pistols.
In mid length bar rels you’ll find you get pretty similar velocities between an autoloader and a revo lver of equal lenth. Shorter barrels favor rev olvers and longer ba rrels favor autos because you lose more from the cylinder gap in longer barr els. Yes the revolv er is longer overall, but for carry I find that my 3″ GP 100 carries a little better than a 4″ semiauto. The sight radii are about the same as well.
Rifleman762,
As Governor Le Petomane mentioned, the cylinder-barrel gap on revolvers complicates direct comparisons of barrel lengths between semi-auto pistol and revolvers.
I have heard that gases which escape through the cylinder-barrel gap generally negate the additional length of the chambers in the cylinder. So, if you had a revolver chambered specifically for 9mm Luger, you would generally measure the same muzzle velocities when you fire the same cartridge out of a semi-auto pistol whose barrel (which includes the chamber) is the same length as the barrel on the revolver (which does not include the length of the chambers in the cylinder).
Yup. Exactly.
If he would have gone with a G20, it would have been a better comparison.
Exactly. Forget some vague argument about trying to get equal barrel lengths (when the barrels aren’t measured the same!) Instead, compare an equal-size gun to an equal-size gun. A G29 will blow the doors off a 2″ or 2.5″ revolver that’s the same size as it. All day long, and twice on Sunday, and will do so with double the ammo, and it’ll be easier to shoot accurately than the lightweight revolver too.
Full power load vs full power load would make for a better test than Hornady’s anemic loadings…
“..and the round was downloaded and eventually necked down to make the 40 S&W round.” WRONG! I stopped reading right there. 10mm and .40 sw are the EXACT same diameter, there is no neck down case, period…thats why I can use the same projectiles when loading. Nice article, apparently no one bothers proof reading these.
10<40. Math 101.
Try again Momma1913: 10mm is the same diameter as 0.40 inches.
(Notice the different units of measure, millimeters versus inches.)
But 10 is less then 40…
lolololololol. made my day
Momma, what a f’in IDIOT! Lmfao. Apparently you failed Math 101.
.357 is NOT 9mm either. .38/.357 use a .357 diameter projectile, 9mm uses .355. That two thousandths of an inch is enough that a 9mm slug in a .357 won’t even have rifling marks on it. It also won’t have much velocity as most of the expanding gases will blow right by the projectile, instead of being trapped behind it to accelerate it. Overall, my impression of this author is: as a scientist and tester, he makes a good novelist…(maybe). Novels don’t need accuracy, only imagination, and he seems to have plenty of that.
It is close enough. The 9mm cy,inder in my blackhawk is just as accurate as the 357 cylinder.
Velocity doesnt seem to suffer either.
And it does leave rifling marks.
Maybe he should know that for a 38/357 the SAAMI bullet diameter is 0.358 +0.000/-0.003 and the lands are 0.349 +0.004/-0.000 and the Grooves are 0.355 +0.004/-0.000. Bullets are meant to be squeezed down the grooves, not the lands. The issue with 9mm bullets in a 357 revolver is that you can potentially get blowby along the grooves, but it depends on your barrels groove diameter.
I saw the same mistake in a different article.
“Necked down” may sound fancier, but what you mean is “shorter.”
This threw me as well. I believe “cut down” would be the desired parlance.
Or ‘shortened’?
‘We could go on to test a variety of different loadings…’
This is the problem with these types of comparisons, they cherry pick one load and leave you dumber than before you read it. First, neither of these loads were full pressure loads. There’s lots of neutered factory loads to choose from and none of them will tell you jack about which is a better cart ridge or even what the differences are.
10mm has a slightly lower case capacity than .357 but runs at a slightly higher pressure. The trade off is just about even with ligh ter bull ets but with heavier ones the .357 fairs better. To make a fair comparison you don’t want bu llets of equal weight but bull ets of equal sectional density. A 155gr 10mm bu llet has a lower SD than a 125gr .357, so selecting a 158gr .357 is just plain stupid. It has an SD just slightly lower than a 200gr 10mm. In this case they’re comparing a self defense load to a low recoil hun ting load.
Bottom line is that 10mm is almost a .357 and nowhere near a .41 mag num when full pressure am mo is compared.
^ So ^ much ^ this ^ up ^ here.^
Both calibers really shine when you shoot them out of handguns with longer barrels. A 10mm Auto pistol with a 5-inch barrel and 10+ rounds of full power 180 grain loads (muzzle velocities about 1,340 fps) is one heck of a self-defense platform. A .357 Magnum revolver with a 6-inch barrel and 7 rounds of full power 158 grain loads (muzzle velocities about 1,540 fps) is also one heck of a self-defense platform.
You could give the edge to 10mm platforms with single-action triggers which would increase accuracy during rapid fire. And you could give the edge to .357 Magnum revolver platforms because of superior reliability.
Both platforms are excellent in my opinion.
All of my re volvers shoot single action if you pull the hammers back.
I completely agree when it comes to self defense. If you want a hard hitting auto go with 10mm, if you want a hard hitting rev olver go with, well go with .44 mag num, but then ‘hard hitting’ has a little different meaning when it comes to revol vers. Although, if you’re worried about a single stack 9 mm or a 5 shot .38 not being able to get you out of trouble you should probably start worrying more about getting struck by lightning. If you’re worried about a 10 or .357 not getting you out of trouble you should worry more about getting struck by a meteorite.
Anyway, .357 does have an edge as a woods g un because it works with higher SD bul lets. I think the heaviest 10mm rou nd you c an get is 200gr and that’s almost exactly the same SD as a 158gr. .357. You just lose too much pow der space with the 10.
Thank you. Why,or maybe how, does 10mm run at higher pressure? does that mean the case (chamber?) can handle higher pressure and so a more energetic powder can be used? or is it another factor?
The 10 has a case capacity of 24.1 grains of water and has a max pressure limit of 37,500psi. The .357 has a case capacity of 26.2 grs H2O and a max pressure of 35,000psi. I suppose that the 10 requires a slightly thicker case. I believe the industry standard is for firearms manufacturers to proof their weapons at 30% above those pressures.
Just for comparison, a .308Win has a max pressure of 62,000psi and a case capacity of 56gr H20.
Thank you for the clear explanation, and I learned a few things from our various comments here. I didn’t know the volume on the 10 and 357, and though I understand what pressure is I hadn’t known that. I’m always amazed looking at a 9mm and. 38 special at the efficiency or performance of the 9.
9 mm is probably the most efficient ro und in terms of both cost of production and space.
Chose 357 for several reasons, not the least of which the gun choices available for the 2 rounds. Also the ability to swing between mild and wild loadings with no barrel or spring changes. The real beauty in the 40/10 is that they were developed for modern semi short barrel service pistols. In a barrel shorter than 3″ 357 magnum is on the ropes against 40 s & w. In 2 inch barrels 40 is actually more powerful and significantly quieter. It’s a shame almost no 40 cal snubbies exist.
.40 cal snubby does exist
Walther PPS, S&W Sheild, XDS .40…to.name a few short barreled .40s
Double Tap claims 1425fps and 563ft/lbs from their 125gr .357 load when shot from a 1-7/8″ S&W. You’d probably need 16″ of barrel to get that out of any .40S&W load.
Average weight for a .40 S&W round is 165-180 Gr. Thats a LOT heavier than 125 Gr. Now, one of those 125 gr OATH ammo .40 s&w pushes over 1350 fps…and its a light load. Also, Double tap claims almost identical numbers for their 10mm loads. 1300-1450 fps.
Another ballistic idiot camp heard from….do a little number checking next time instead of commenting out of your ass.
Speaking of commenting out of your ass, if you’d have perused the comments here you’d know that a 155gr 10mm/.40 bu llet has a lower sectional density than a 125gr. .357 bull et. When comparing different cal ibers you need to compare similar sectional densities rather than similar weights. And yes, 10mm is similar to .357, hence the whole point of the article. .40 on the other hand is a significantly weaker r ound than .357. And with the right load, those .357 snubbies ca n produce some awesome results if you can handle the recoil and muzzle blast.
Comparing the 10mm Auto and the .357 Magnum is like comparing the 454 Chevy and the 460 Ford. Which of the two engines is most powerful depends more on the builds of the individual engines (i.e. which intake, cam and heads etc.used) than on the basic designs of the two motors. With the two cartridges the difference depends more on the individual loads compared than the cartridges themselves.
As 10mm gains traction 40s decent will accelerate as people with have the choice of capacity and ease of use over power and versatility with the 40 just kinda floating in the middle being just ok. With at least every type of pistol variant having at least one version of a 10mm cost and choice will cause 10mm to replace the 40 as one of the big three.
“Descent”
Normally I try to avoid being the spelling/grammar Nazi but I do have to make an exception when said mistake forms a completely different word. The only one I truly can’t stand is when people type “loose” when they mean “lose”…….
“Loose” is the opposite of tight whereas to “lose” something means it is lost. Not that I’m assuming you would make that mistake… I’ll show myself out.
I’ve mostly capitulated. When professional sign companies use the apostrophe for plurals, there’s just very little hope one can muster
I do wonder how long it will take to devolve back to a series of grunts and whistles. If the vocabulary of the current generation is indicative, I give it maybe 4 generations.
” When professional sign companies use the apostrophe for plurals, there’s just very little hope one can muster”
Preach it.
I *barely* escaped High School, and the practice of “When in doubt, just add the ‘apostrophe s'” makes my skin *crawl* when I see it.
My skin has been a-crawling a *lot* recently…
Agree, same thing screams in my ears like Fergie singing the national anthem when ppl use “then” when it should be “than”.
Improper use of there, they’re, and/or their gets me revved up.
First, choose whether you want to carry a revolver or a semi-auto.
Second, choose a cartridge that will most likely meet your needs.
As mentioned, there are so many options in bullet weights and powder charges that direct comparisons are a waste of time.
Ta-da. Everything you need to know about this comparison, right ^ there.
Totally.
I believe it’s .357Sig vs .357Magnum that you are supposed to be doing. More on 10mm vs .41Magnum please. Something that is never measured is the advantage of a wider bullet. The circumference alone opens up a greater bleed flow resulting in quicker deaths.
ding ding ding. no idea why we are comparing a larger caliber to essentially a high speed 9mm (yes yes, slightly different diameter). .357 SIG is in fact the “.357 magnum of semi autos”. but lets not get in the way of the 10mm love fest that seems never-ending.
The .355 Sig is nowhere near as powerful as .357mag.
If penetration is as written, I know which one I would prefer to carry for defense against bear. Deeper the better.
Good info and a good read to be certain. I disagree with .357 being the winner based on gun/ammo availability and price. We are comparing the .357 vs 10mm head to head. Sure it may be more expensive for the guns and ammo but in that case 9mm must beat both since guns and ammo can be had for cheaper.
The one debatable point is that the 10mm wound channel was significantly wider but the .357s was longer (keep your dirty jokes to yourself). However over-penetration is a real concern so maybe this is still in the 10mms favor. The tipping point is the 10mms higher capacity and quicker reloads which would make it the winner in my humble opinion.
Full disclosure: I carry 9mm so I have no dog in this fight. However, I did just help my buddy who lives in Alaska pick up a Glock 20 for when he is snowboarding through bear country. If you are going to pack a magnum revolver might as well grab a .44… just saying.
Hard cast lead bullets from Cor Bon or Buffalo Bore would give better penetration in the magnum. And the revolver won’t jam if the bear has you down and you have to fire at odd angles and in contact with the animal.
Soldiers and cops need the semi. Outdoorsmen need the revolver.
But I’m not king of the world. Yet. So carry what suits you.
People don’t often consider the possibility of FTF in a close contact defensive situation ala George Zimmerman. It can also be applied to a wild animal attack. Also not considered by people who have limited experience is the very real possibility of limp wristing a glock 29 one handed shooting loaded with very hot ammo or the 2 finger magazine as some might do with CC. There are certain situations where higher capacity is a big plus but those situations exist almost exclusively in the realm of hypothetical.
My understanding of the zimmerman/trayvon shooting was that zim’s weapon jammed with the first shot. Had he needed a follow up……..
While I agree that overpenetration is a real concern, I’m also convinced that in real life you’re not going to get the kind of penetration in flesh that you do in gel. I’ve heard it takes 4″ of gel just to replicate penetrating the skin. I also read an article a little while ago about the FBI tests and there was a quote from the guy who headed up the tests where he pointed out that the FBI had something like a 20% hit rate in actual combat so they didn’t put too much weight behind overpenetration since 80% of the ro unds don’t even hit.
Accuracy matters more than almost anything else. But it’s not as fun to argue about. 😉
Accuracy also becomes much, much more challenging when somebody is shooting at you.
For defense against humans, this .357 load overpenetrates. It would have been interesting to see what a 125 grain bullet would do.
If i need a semi auto with that kind of stopping power i will just get a deagle in .357. No need for a new cartridge. Dont care about the weight.
Honestly, the .357 performance is lackluster in that ammo. Looking at Buffalo Bore they get 1485fps out of a 158gr .357 Magnum in a 4″ L frame. The Hornady stuff is weak sauce. Looking at Buffalo Bore’s 10mm they rate their 155gr at 1275fps out of a 3.8″ Glock. Probably the same as yours. The hottest stuff I can find for Underwood in terms of it being shot in a 30 second google search is 1448fps from a 4.5″ gun. Overall from a ballistics stand point they’re pretty evenly matched, and I wouldn’t feel under armed against 2 legged critters with either as well as a huge preponderance of 4 legged ones at threat distances. This also says nothing about barrel length either; Where you’ll end up finding the weakness of 10mm to .357 magnum is as the barrel length goes up due to running powders like H110/296 with a long barrel.
Where 10mm falls apart from me is I’ve known a person or two to blow them up, and the brass life seems to suck. Yeah the caliber, capacity and fast reloads are awesome but it seems like a lot of guns are plagued with reliability issues in this caliber. It also says little of the versatility in a .357 magnum hand gun and being able to shoot powder puff .38s to full bore 200gr slugs.
The biggest takeaways here are we are blessed by a burden of awesome choices, and check ammo manufacturers carefully because not all rounds by the same maker are created equally.
10 vs .357. First world problems.
*This*…
357 SIG is usually referred to as the “357 of the auto pistol world”.
meh, 10mm probably has more relevance than .357 Sig ever will. .40 S&W people will be making fun of the obscurity of your caliber.
That said I wish that 9X23 or similar was more popular. Enhanced firepower, 9mm capacity still.
Buy a Glock 29 and a 9×23 dillon barrel, best of both worlds right there! 9×23 should be the standard 9mm!
Somewhere in the Northwest United States, Yankee Marshall frantically records a video debunking these findings by using false equivalencies and circular reasoning.
In three months he will then will go on to change his carry piece to something other than .357 and explain why everyone is an idiot and he has made the best decision (he might even cite this video as to why).
He did go bastard child there for a while and carried a .40 S&W Rhino. Talk about chasing the beast in a way that will get both the revolver and semi auto people to have angst with you. Assuming you care of course.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with either one of these rounds.
So quit worrying who’s is bigger, pick one, become good with it, carry it and call it done.
Talk about useless diversions of time.
You sir, are clearly a man comfortable enough with his masculinity to be completely unconcerned with the possibility that his neighbor’s dick might be a quarter inch longer than his.
How hard is this?
If u want a wheel gun, take a 357.
If u want a semi larger than a 9, get a 10.
Fk40.
Well, I’ll take the .357 in my revolver out to the woods, along with my Henry Big Boy in same. Don’t think I can do that with 10mm.
I would be interested in a 10mm carbine that feeds through the pistol grip though.
Hi-Point has a 10mm carbine now.
I used to have a HP .40 carbine, and liked it well enough.
Kriss Vector CRB is a very cool 10mm carbine that uses Glock 10 mm mags. I love .357 and 10 mm and have multiple guns in each cartridge. So, you can do pistol/revolver/carbine in .357 or 10 mm.
The Kriss rifle is here: https://kriss-usa.com/rifles/carbines/vector-crb-black
Just my opinion, but I don’t see any advantage of a pistol caliber carbine other than they can feed the mag through the grip and shorten the rifle by 4 inches, otherwise you might as well have and AR instead. So that puts the Kriss out. Plus it’s about twice the cost of what I’d actually pay. The hi-point’s probably a little too cheap (and ugly). Maybe if Beretta started making a 10mm CX4, that would work.
KelTec has a SUB-2000 foldable carbine that uses Glock 23 mags. .40 for handgun and carbine. I like that.
My .357 usually slings 125s GDs at 1695fps. They expand to .96″ (max) 6 pointed stars and stop between 11.5″ and 12.5″ in clear gel. It is a very different load than Terril’s. I also have 200gr hard casts that don’t expand and sail through 30-35″ of gel for different circumstances. The load can change the gel results wildly. .357 vs 10mm is a matter of taste more than anything else. If I knew for sure that I was going to get in a gun fight I”d probably choose a high capacity 10mm though.
Just get a 460 Rowland conversion for the 1911 and your done. I’ve got one on a XDM .45. WOW!!! (and you can still shoot .45) So you can open black holes then close them sucking the target into it.
I really want a Ruger PC 10mm carbine.
10mm for me, finding a do it all gun led me to a delta elite over a 44 mag. the reload time and follow up shot time are a huge factor to me. with the penetrator rounds going through bullet proof glass like butter theres no worry using it as a bear gun. hollow points for urban carry.
It’s fair to say that they are both relatively powerful pistol rounds. More than enough for social work, and I wouldn’t feel undergunned with either against a bear in the lower 48.
There are a few points that I didn’t see anyone bring up though. If I remember correctly, at one point very popular company known for revolvers had the SAAMI pressure specs changed because their revolvers couldn’t handle a steady diet of full power .357 loads. This caused commercial ammo to be loaded a little lighter than it used to be. Some revolvers are made to handle handle the older spec hot rounds, but I wouldn’t recommend using them in a S&W.
Another thing is recoil. I remember hearing that people had a hard time qualifying with 10mm due to recoil, and that’s why it was abandoned by the FBI. I don’t remember hearing anything like that with .357 magnum. My Colt may not hold 15 rounds with 15 more a fast reload away, but there is less felt recoil than with any polymer .40 (not even 10mm) that I’ve personally fired. I can put accurate shots downrange pretty fast in double action, but then again I’m used to revolvers as well as semi-autos. On the other hand, if I think I might need that many rounds instead of a more effective bullet I’ll take a semi auto, or a rifle, or just not go do whatever would require that kind of firepower.
Both the 10mm and .357 magnum have their own strengths and limitations, so which one is better for you depends on what you’re using you pistol for. I chose the .357 mag for versatility (gotta love the option of snake shot and having fun at the range with cheap .38 special rounds), it’s power potential, reliability, soft recoil, and because it’s a beautiful and very well made gun from the days when the revolver was king.
Well boy’s , nothing like a good old ‘ caliber war ‘ to get your blood flowing .
Oh , by the way , this is America , home of the free and land of the buy as many guns as you want .
I have several firearms that chamber the 357 and each have a special purpose and place in MY HEART . Each one is justified by ME as having a legitimate function for ME .
I also own a few 10’s and I’m seriously considering the new Ruger SR 10 , because I think it will make ME happy .
Buy em both fellas .
Not much has been written about reliability. I carry either a revolver in 38+P, or an autoloader in 9MM+P. I can count on the 38 to be more reliable, that is: not to have a failure to eject, not to have a failure to feed, and of course, who ever heard of a “stove pipe’ in a wheel gun. I didn’t mention missfires, because is can happen on both type of weapons, however, my carry 9 is DA/SA and I have the option of re-firing without the need of racking the slide again. Does your striker fired autoloader have that option?
Admittedly, a revolver takes longer to reload, but I stay away from areas where I might encounter a large force of gang members.
I also carry a mousegun in my pocket 24/7
Ok, so, everybody go with the 40 S&W.
Because it’s ‘snappy’.
357 Magnum isn’t what it used to be. 1264 fps is weak for a 158 grain bullet. The original load was a 158 grain lead swc at well over 1500 fps. Current ammo is loaded to around 33,000 psi. The original 10mm load was a 200 grain bullet at just under 1200 fps, but that load was beating up the guns pretty good. In reality the 10mm and 357 Magnum are ballistic twins from a handgun with the hottest loads being about equal. I like them both.
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