Statement from Polymer80.com

1. The BATFE, NSA, FBI and…….. may not be looking for you now butt give them a minute the drones have to be refueled.

   • Heh heh heh…. you said “butt”.

2. What, are they French? Surrender before the border is even breached?

   Can at least wait to run when can see the dust cloud approaching, or the whites of their eyes.

   • I think they are being cautious and I don’t blame them.

     • Yep. Their money, their skin, their choice. Everyone else is just a gawker, tourist, rubber-necker, lookie-loo, armchair quarterback.

3. When judges talk about a “chilling effect” on constitutional rights, this is exactly the kind of thing they’re talking about. “We don’t believe what we’re doing is illegal. But we’re afraid to do it anyway, because the government might decide to drop the hammer on us whether it’s legal or not.”

   • Precisely this. If people are afraid to do things because of “what might happen,” it’s irrelevant whether it’s actually illegal or not.

     I don’t fault their decision. People’s livelihoods are at stake, and it sounds like they’re going to work towards getting their products back on the market.

   • Correct. This is about as classic “Chilling effect” as could be.

4. WHAT????? PROACTIVE?? Why not tell the BATFE to SUCK ONE!!! I would have NEVER took down a prodict that is LEGALY PRODUCED, just to make BATFE happy!!! Stand up for your rights people, or they will take them from us!! I call BULLSHIT on this one!!

   • Give me a break.

   • When you have a business in a similar situation, and you have the opportunity to demonstrate the courage of your convictions, please let us know.

     • So, you guys are allowed to bust on people who commment, but if we do it to you…we either get FLAME DELETED or some generic statement about how we should personally email you guys. F’N hypocrites.

       • Yes, clearly, there’s a double-standard going here. Since I very obviously moderated the half-dozen other people that said basically the same thing I did, while leaving my comment in place. Oh wait, I didn’t. Because it’s not a flame, it’s a counterpoint. I know it’s hard for you to tell the difference when viewed through the lens of your rage.

   • Another keyboard kommando.

     You’re awfully brave when it’s someone else’s business and livelihood.

   • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNlgIY9QKw

   • The way things stand, what is legal [to produce] is determined by the BATFE and that determination can change at anytime. Rule of man is now the rule as we see more and more everyday.

   • I’d love to see how much chest puffing you’d do if your mortgage or your freedom were actually on the line. Even if Aries is found to have done NOTHING wrong the legal costs and long term ramifications of this could be STAGGERING.

     Stake your livelihood on running a business and you’ll see just how much pucker factor even the I.R.S. can induce, much less the A.T.F. jackboots.

     • ARES. Their business name is Ares. Is that overly-grammatical?

   • Sure, its not his money, his livelihood…but David is still right.

5. Just a general comment: it’s easy to call bull when it’s not your livelihood on the line.

   I think their decision is an unfortunate one, but I see why they might do it. That said…

   At the moment I don’t own an AR-15 rifle. I find the idea of building my own interesting, though. And if I do take that route, I’ll probably start my parts search somewhere else. Maybe at Ares if they’re still around.

   • No way, if you don’t draw a line in the sand and say NO Fin WAY!! There going to come and ask for more of your RIGHTS be taken!! The gun industry is trying to fight back against oppression! This only will work if we all stand together! They got into the industry to make GUNS and GUN PARTS, they new the RISK!! They should not fold under this amount of BS PRESSURE!! Just tells us all that there more interested in MONEY than being a GUN OWNER, or supporting the greater cause! And beleive me when I tell you, this isn’t going to make the BATFE stay away for long.. Just wait till the next BUMP in the road!! I would have had more respect for them had they just closed there doors, and said we can no longer operate under these TYRANTS!!!

     • Small point:
       There
       They’re
       Their
       Knew
       New
       Choose wisely.
       It’s the ghost of my mother at the dinner table.

       • I screw up the possesive, contractive, plural apostrophe’s/apostrophes’ all the time.

     • Bless you for rejecting the advice of terminal cowards.

6. No win situation for this company. The ever-zealous Internet keyboard commandos will, and as we see here, already are savaging them.

   And on the other hand they risk losing their business.

   And as I have said before, who wants crappy plastic in their AR lower anyway?

   • Well it’s easy to be brave when it’s not you on the line.

   • What about the $1000 bet, Great White Grub?

7. This makes me happy:

   We currently do NOT have an active customer list

   For the life of me I’ll never understand why any business especially one on the govs shitlist would retain a database of customers. At least encrypt it if you’re going to keep it.

8. Yeah exactly, there business, to make firearms… In these times you know what your getting into! If you cant stand the heat, get the hell out the kitchen!! I was over in the sandbox with the 82nd, I was wounded 3 times fighting for our FREEDOMS, until an IED took my left eye and 3 fingers on my left hand! I was over there fighting TYRONY, and come back to the states a changed man, only to find our country being led by the same BULLSHIT TYRONY. This time by my own commander and chief!! Made me throw up a little in my mouth!! So to all these small and large gun companies, STAND AND FIGHT, OR RUN AND BE RUN DOWN!!!

   • Yeah exactly, there business, to make firearms… In these times you know what your getting into!

     But their business was NOT to make firearms – at least they didn’t think it was. That’s kind of the point.

     • Darn fine point.

9. E. We are cowards and the ATF has intimidated us through their actions and we will now hide in a corner like good subjects.

   Screw the ATF and anyone who works for or supports them

   • +100,000. I’m generous today.

10. I too fought for our freedoms. 3 tours in Iraq and 3 in Afghanistan. The word you are looking for is Tyranny. I do not blame them one bit. I have been working to start my own company and I can say I would do the same thing. It’d be a hard pill to swallow, but it’d be swallowed. At least this way their employees can continue to feed their families. Were they to continue unphased they would end up just like Ares. They’re not giving in to anything. They are trying to PROTECT customers privacy and 2A rights.

11. Two comments:

    1. Obvious troll is obvious.

    2. “Proactively work” = We didn’t do what we should have done before going into production and now we are trying to fix our mistake.

    • When did a letter from S&T become a requirement? Probably a 20/20 hindsight good idea, but when there is only a materials change from different, yet comparable, products that are already selling?

      • These manufacturers are all trying to get close to the line that separates “gun” from “not a gun”. The penalties for crossing the line are huge. Getting a letter is, AFAIK, free and gives the manufacturer and their customers legal protection from the ATF. What would you do?

        Again, my issue with EP/Ares is not that they made these and sold them. It’s that EP/Ares told customers that they had ATF approval when they didn’t have the approval.

12. Sorry for mis spelled shit, as I said now twice, I was shot and was blown up…My vision is bad..I don’t need you guys schooling me about grammer! I have a problem seeing and typing!! A 155mm shell attached to a pressure plate activated IED exploding sending shrap metal at 5000 plus FPS will do that to a man!!

    • Thanks, your explanation is understandable. But I didn’t see where anyone criticized your for spelling and grammar. It’s possible I missed that, however.

      I’m very sorry for what happened to you. It never should have happened, but that’s just my take.

13. I have to say that I have been largely disgusted by the responses to the Area Armor ATF raid, and the businesses involved in selling polymer 80% lowers (such as Polymer 80). Regarding the ATF raid, many have commented with the idea that Area “knew” they were going to be raided by the ATF and should have erased their customers data. That’s idiotic. Area obtained a restraining order against the ATF in order to protect against a raid. Further, the ATF has a penchant for making up rules as they go along. If Fast and Furious has demonstrated anything, it is that the ATF cannot be trusted and is not being held accountable. That is a truly scary thing, folks. Not only does the ATF make rules and gives definitions regarding legality of firearms and components, but they also enforce the rules.

    The polymer lower construction issues that the ATF is after – or at least using as an excuse – doesn’t even need to be a law anyways. I have no issue with responsible citizens making their own firearms. That’s about as close as we can get to the 2A in modern times – the freedom to build your own firearms without a bunch of unnecessary government oversight.

    Polymer 80 doesn’t want to be raided by the ATF. They are withholding some of their product in an effort not to be raided. In turn, they are being vilified by keyboard commandos on this website. That’s just stupid.

    I simply cannot fathom why many are not doing more to support those who are under the radar of the ATF (and probably the NSA, DHS, and maybe even the TSA and EPA SWAT). Most of us here are probably already on a list. Some are saying to fight, some are saying to run and hide, and many are declaring that they will never do business with Areas because their information may become compromised. Grow some freakin’ stones, people.

    What’s my dog in the fight? I’ve purchased incomplete lowers from Ares. I just made another purchase a few days ago. I don’t have a tons of disposable income, but I’ll make every feasible effort to support organizations under the thumb of federal government thugs who couldn’t care less about the 2A or property rights. Perhaps that puts yours truly under the ATF radar. So be it. I’d rather have the .gov know about me and millions more like me who will not immediately comply with every asinine order handed down by government goons.

    I’m not even a 2A absolutist. I’d love to be, but I just can’t get behind fighting for 2A rights for felons such as murderers, rapists, wife beaters, and child molesters. They can roam the earth – because they’ll probably get let out of jail early anyways – without any voting or gun rights. The law didn’t stop them in the first place and it probably won’t stop them on their next crime. Those of you who know me already know that I’m against every other BS infringement including mag limits, “may issue,” bullet buttons, mandatory training, and universal background check.

    So if we can’t support businesses who are quite literally under the gun, will we support each other? Are we about the cause of freedom, or are we about looking out for #1?

    • Let me ask you a question: What’s the difference between Ares and Tactical Machining?

      Also, “under the radar” means they *can’t* see you.

      • Tactical Machining begged the ATF for a determination letter. I believe TM has an FFL as well. I get it. First I have to get permission from the government, then I can exercise my right. Ah. So much better.

        /sarcasm

        I really hope you aren’t trying to imply that Ares deserved the raid. The dimpling and / or complete machining to 100% and then back down to 80% – if indeed that happened is the process – is what the ATF is (allegedly) concerned about. I guess I just don’t consider that the crime of the century. I’d rather go after a drunk or reckless driver. Maybe arrest someone on a murder warrant, or find a thief. Priorities.

        My lowers were aluminum, because I don’t yet trust the strength of a polymer lower. Thank God my 80% lowers received government blessing.

        • Companies like TM have been around a long time before Ares, and will be around a long time after Ares is gone. Ares had options in how they wanted to run their business and they decided to have bad customer service and questionable billing practices. Ares had options in how to respond to the ATF and they picked an apparently amateurish response that resulted in them handing over far more information than the ATF requested.

          Including your information.

        • @Shakey,

          If you’ve ever filled out a 4473, its likely the ATF has your information as well. Also, I sold the lower for cash while it was still in its original 80% status to someone else in a parking lot at a gun show. Thanks to the NSA, the ATF may probably also know that I don’t like them very much. The IRS knows almost to the penny how much I’ve spent on guns, ammo, and range fees last year. It’s a lot.

          There are advantages to millions of Americans being on the radar. The ATF and the Feds cannot have their will with everything because they know that people such as myself can only be pushed so far. That’s actually one of the purposes of the 2A.

          Perhaps you think I am ignorant by doing business with Ares, but the fact is that I took an intentional risk in doing so. They took a risk by not immediately caving to the ATF. Hopefully they will have their successful day in court. I will continue to support Ares and companies like them. I will also lend my support to pro-gun, pro-concealed carry, pro-2A causes. If you want to be like one of the CT gun owners who immediately complied with the ridiculous new laws that is up to you.

        • @Accura81 – Setting aside your PAs and obvious rear-covering comments:

          Do you understand that Ares had a number of options, some of which could have protected their customers, and they decided instead to pursue the option that would get them the most press, regardless of the customer impact? Do you know Ares fired their original lawyer?

          I’ll continue to spend my $$$ on stand-up businesses and groups effectively fighting for our rights. You can back these jokers if you want.

        • I agree wholeheartedly. I cannot see where Ares Armor did anything wrong. Because, as far as I can see, they didn’t.

14. It is odd…I never wanted an 80% polymer lower before. Now that I know it is giving the ATF a hissy fit, I want like…a hundred of them. On second though, buying a hundred of them would no doubt get my dog shot! Nevermind.

15. Sorry, NOT SUPPORTING ANY BUISNESS THAT DOESNT SUPPORT THE 2nd A!! Or civil liberties and BASIC FREEDOMS!! Ronnie Barrett said it best to the NY CITY SWAT TEAM when asked to supply the with 50 BMG snipper rifles. “do to the recent SAFE ACT, Barret Firearms can not sell the city of NY any weapons platform that an ordinary citizen can not purchase” Thank you Ronnie Barrett!! I understand that some of you feel bad about what happened to Ares firearms. But there back in business after 1 day post ATF RAID!! Even made a joke about the ATF’s BS RAID!! That’s a company that stands up to the ATF. Not one that closes selling of a product because they don’t want to get envolved in the fight for all of our RIGHTS!!! That would have bin like me telling my CO,” im gonna sit this one out chief, don’t want to piss off the terrorist on this one!!” I call a big BS on there choice to quietly remove their product from the market without a FIGHT!!!!!!

    • A couple points.
      1. P80 isn’t backing down. They are concerned that their product, as defined by a recent ATF decision, may be considered a legal firearm. They are temporarily suspending production until they receive confirmation that their product meets the definition of an 80% lower—after which their stated intent is to go right back to selling almost-guns to the public.
      2. There is a world of difference between a distributor defending themselves in court, leaving their store front open, and making certain public statements vs. a manufacturer continuing to sell products they suspect the ATF will judge illegal. You are effectively comparing a car dealership fighting government oversight vs. a car maker building an out of compliance vehicle. The two aren’t even remotely similar and carry very different penalties and implications for the parties involved.
      3. We are talking about the ATF, a federal law enforcement entity here. This isn’t a couple good friends talking smack about the governor in their back yard. These people both write and enforce the rules (a rigged system that needs to be burned to the ground and salted in my opinion.) This is potential federal criminal charges if they screw up.
      4. Regardless of how we all feel the law should deal with the manufacturing of firearms or parts there of, the reality is that the ATF runs the show. If you make, sell, or purchase firearms, you have to play by their rules. I sure as hell don’t want to deal with the metric ton of paperwork involved with the making and selling of guns. These people are trying to stay in business—a state that they will not be able to maintain if the ATF shuts them down. They are taking proactive measures to keep themselves in business, 80% lowers on the shelves, and their customers happy. I applaud them for their foresight and willingness to stay in the 80% lower market after everything that has happened.

      Save the anger for the ATF, not the put upon people who are trying to walk the straight and narrow.

      • “They are concerned that their product, as defined by a recent ATF decision, may be considered a legal firearm.”

        Damn! That’s scary!

    • David says:
      March 20, 2014 at 11:27

      Sorry, NOT SUPPORTING ANY BUISNESS THAT DOESNT SUPPORT THE 2nd A!! Or civil liberties and BASIC FREEDOMS!! Ronnie Barrett said it best to the NY CITY SWAT TEAM when asked to supply the with 50 BMG snipper rifles. “do to the recent SAFE ACT, Barret Firearms can not sell the city of NY any weapons platform that an ordinary citizen can not purchase” Thank you Ronnie Barrett!! I understand that some of you feel bad about what happened to Ares firearms. But there back in business after 1 day post ATF RAID!! Even made a joke about the ATF’s BS RAID!! That’s a company that stands up to the ATF. Not one that closes selling of a product because they don’t want to get envolved in the fight for all of our RIGHTS!!! That would have bin like me telling my CO,” im gonna sit this one out chief, don’t want to piss off the terrorist on this one!!” I call a big BS on there choice to quietly remove their product from the market without a FIGHT!!!!!!

      YO David……
      There is a big difference between a business that does not support 2A and a business being prudent about the 2A products they sell being legal and the details of customers not being seized in relation to those products and/or activities.
      If a business does not keep or maintain customer lists and details -there would be none to seize. Cash Is King!

      Polymer80 is No more and No less a 2a company than Ronnie Berrett’s,
      Each one is trying to protect their mainstream customers.
      Ares could open for business 1day later because the ATF acquired (seized) all the data they were seeking at this moment.

      Bullies are bullies
      Give me your lunch money… No! I’ll beat you up…. No, you can’t take it! it’s my money! thump…………thanks buddy…. see you tomorrow……………

16. I think I see what’s happening here. The whole ATF/Ares thing is allegedly about how the lower is manufactured (filled in vs. molded around a plug), right? Anyone want to bet that Polymer80 is making theirs using the “illegal” fill-in technique, and now that they know the ATF has deemed that particular manufacturing method to be the crime of the century, are trying to dig their way out of a potential legal nightmare?

17. I think these guys should be applauded for keeping their customers from getting their doors kicked in at 2am. It’s one thing to stick your OWN neck out, shouting F the BATFE. It’s another thing to stick other people’s necks out. If they have a chance to avoid attracting attention to their customers, I for one am glad they have the wisdom to take it.

    • Yeah, me too.

18. I don’t blame them. It’s their business and their decision. I’m just sorry I can’t have the plastic paperweight now.
    BTW we had nice word for acting this way back in CSSR. “Predposranost”. Litterally ” pre-chickening (with brown stained pants). It means not doing what we really want to do or stopping doing it before it was forbidden by kommies because “they would forbid it anyway”.

19. It is a matter of the process on how the polymer is built. Is it built to function as a firearm/lower and then plugged/molded inside with a different polymer compound that is fixed into the trigger well that makes one have to drill the plug out. According to ATF, once something is made into a firearm it can not be unmade. This is the issue.

20. [quote comment]
    Shire-man says:
    March 20, 2014 at 10:34

    [This makes me happy:

    ” We currently do NOT have an active customer list”

    For the life of me I’ll never understand why any business especially one on the govs shitlist would retain a database of customers. At least encrypt it if you’re going to keep it.]

    +1
    Here! Here! I AGREE.

    From the TV show “Hogans Heros” Sgt Schlultz, ” I KNOW NOTHING!”
    (IF) Nothing kept– nothing to get / take (or Know)!

    I desire and should be able to do a Legal Mail -order purchase (where) any and all of my personal and purchase info is “confirmed safe” from ID THEFT perpetrated by ANY and ALL parties.
    The Best and SAFEST WAY to ” Confirm that personal and purchase data is Safe from ID theft” and beat ANY breech/ capture of records or data—is DON”T KEEP and/or STORE contact, purchase and billing info.
    ARE YOU LISTENING TARGET !!!!
    ORDER/Purchase> PAID> SHIPPED> DELIVERED > PURGED/ shredded
    The 1960’s TV Show “Mission Impossible” …. Mr Phelps heard the details of the mission, then the tape self- destructed………… minimizing any Potential compromise or Loss of information.

    I will not do any business with a company that has NO REGARD for their customers privacy and protection.

    Loran Kelley….POLYMER80.com I “Salute” Your diligence and care !
    I Encourage you….. TO CONTINUE NOT to KEEP, STORE, MAINTAIN by Any Means of storage available- ANY/ ALL customer information that may be compromised in ANY WAY at ANY Time by Any One!

    I look forward to dealing with you for anything I might need.

    to;
    You guys that are bashing the holding up of product sales by Polymer80.com, while POLMER80.COM seeks some determinations / approval of product, either you are not buying Product anywhere anyway , you’re Too Oblivious to care, or YOU Got BOATLOADS OF MONEY TO DEFEND AGAINST Any and All potential BOGUS and FRIVOLOUS assaults against companies (selling believed legal products) and their customers. Customers are at risk if lists/ databases are Kept/ Maintained by any company and thus taken /stolen.

21. Ok guys, I just read every comment above about the EP Armory’s 80% polymer lower and the ATF raid on Ares Armor who distribute(s)(d) it. Of course Polymer80 has been drug into the discussion as well. I, for one, am very grateful to Polymer80 for not keeping a customer list. You see, I bought a polymer80 chunk of plastic as a decorative paperweight. It took a few weeks to get the item, and it turns out the SHTF with Ares literally while I was waiting for my Polymer80 paperweight to arrive in the mail. Well, I looked at my new paperweight and thought that I could modify it to make it better. So I went out into the garage that night and by 2:00 AM the next morning I had drilled, with my cheap Sears drill press, that chunk of plastic into a part that just happens to fit together with a bunch of other parts to be a fully functioning self defence device. Now, the questions about these 80% polymer paperweights is that they’re manufactured first and then part of the inside is filled with a contrasting colored plastic that can be simply removed with a dremel drill, or magic, and presto it’s done. Well, not so. During the drilling out of the unwanted plastic in the center, which is red, I expected to see only red shavings, but oh no! On the sides, in the middle, through out all of the red center were large pockets of black. It seemed to be riddled with black pockets throughout. The finished product “milled” out at least 25% black shavings along with the red. There is no way that they injection mold a complete lower and then just fill it with red plastic. That “milling” procedure is cutting a complete fire control pocket, and without the jig and proper tools you couldn’t possibly have a clean pocket. I built that lower myself out of a plastic paperweight. It’s legal to manufacture your own firearm for your own use and it doesn’t have to have a name or serial number. It’s a one-off part that I fabricated myself. So screw the ATF. They’re just making up “laws” as they go, and I for one say “screw their “laws””. They’re not valid. And that’s all I have to say about that!

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