Back in 2016 we wrote about Raja’ee Fatihah, an Army reservist who walked into Save Yourself Survival in Oktaha, Oklahoma and announced that he’s Muslim. Why? Because the range had posted a sign on their door declaring the establishment a Muslim-free zone.
He was asked to leave and the American Civil Liberties Union filed suit on Fatihah’s behalf. Fatihah also happened to be a board member of the Muslim advocacy group Council on American-Islamic Relations’ Oklahoma chapter.
Now, more than three years later, the range has agreed to take the sign down and the ACLU has dropped its suit.
Here’s the AP’s report . . .
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — A lawsuit filed on behalf of a Muslim U.S. Army reservist asked to leave a gun range in eastern Oklahoma was dropped on Tuesday, with both sides declaring victory in the case.
Court records show both sides agreed to the dismissal order filed in federal court in Muskogee.
The lawsuit was filed in 2016 on behalf of Raja’ee Fatihah, a Muslim man from Tulsa, against the owners of Save Yourself Survival and Tactical Gun Range in the town of Oktaha. The owners, Chad and Nicole Neal, had posted a sign on the business declaring the range a “Muslim-free” establishment.
“We are pleased that the defendants in this case decided to take down their anti-Muslim sign, and that they affirmed their commitment to complying with the law,” said Heather Weaver, senior staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union, which represented Fatihah in the case, along with attorneys for the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
An attorney for the store’s owners, Robert Muise of the American Freedom Law Center, said he and his clients were prepared to take the case to trial when they were notified of the ACLU’s plan to drop the case. Muise has maintained the sign is political free speech and that Muslims were never banned from the business.
“They’ve made it clear that it was a political-protest sign,” Muise said. “The only reason they even kept the sign up as long as they did is because (the Council on American Islamic Relations) sued them, and they refused to be gagged by CAIR.”
Fatihah is a member of CAIR Oklahoma’s board of directors.
Muise said his clients removed the sign in December. They have since replaced it with a new sign declaring the business is a “terrorist free establishment” and includes a ban on anyone with ties to CAIR and several other organizations.
Weaver, the ACLU attorney, said if the Neals put up a sign indicating Muslims are banned, she expects another lawsuit would be filed.
“If they put the sign back up and refuse to serve Muslims because of their Islamic faith, we will be there, ready to take whatever action necessary to defend the rights of many Muslims in Oklahoma,” she said.
Ok, I’m gonna venture out onto the ole limb here and ask the obvious. Why in the blueberry f*ckmuffins would one go someplace knowing that certain types aren’t welcome there and announce to everybody and the lazy hound under the porch that they are indeed the type not welcome there and then sue when asked to leave? Were you not warned enough that hey they don’t like you and do not want your business or are you just that f*cking dense? Also while I’m screaming at the local clouds about the rain, Why does everyone now a days look for a reason to be a victim and complain? Why are we still suing everything that moves? Why is this line of questioning making me lose my will to live and question my existence?
Islam means “Submission.” That’s what this was all about.
Now, I’m not the gun range owner. I don’t know about his situation or why he decided to submit. All I know is that it won’t end here for them. These types can smell blood in the water. They’ll see this as a victory and it will spur further lawsuits.
It was a victory.
Just as all Christians are not responsible for the killings of Dylan roof or Timothy McVay not all Muslims are responsible for the killings of the fundamentalist crazy Muslims.
If your business wants access to the great market place of the American population you must accept all members of the American population.
Would it be OK for the Muslim doctors at the VA to refuse service to the Christians?
You’re an idiot. No one lauded the actions of McVeigh or Roof. On the other hand, millions of Muslims worldwide celebrated on 9/11. We even have lots of video of it.
I’ve had access to the internet since about 1990. I miss those days.
The VA is run by the government. The range in question is privately owned, thus they have the right to refuse service to anyone. You going to have the government FORCE Christian gynecologists in private practice to perform abortions? If your answer is yes, PLEASE do us all a favor and leave the USA pronto.
Danny, you don’t know me and yet you feel empowered to attack me personally by calling me an idiot. Big man hiding behind your computer keyboard, making statements you don’t have the balls to make in person, you should get up and leave your moms basement and check out the real world.
So like trump, you’re lying about the videos of Muslims celebrating the attack of 911.
Sad.
And yes, many white supremacist, Nazis and KKK members celebrated Dylan Roofs murder and hatred. The same with Timothy McVay, celebrated all across the right wing echo chambers of America.
Miner49er
Libertarians on TTAG and Reason Magazine have been defending racist segregation in business for quite a while now. You need to look in a mirror for a change to find one of these Libertarians.
Well in Ohio it was OK for a muslim (not capitalized on purpose) Dr. to states she would poison all Jewish patients. The main problem is the entire ‘religion’ says that if you don’t convert or pay a tax you are to be killed unless you are female then you are property (face it your wife or daughter would be a sex slave) of any male who has them. The true followers do this. Those who are ‘moderate’ do not follow the religion.
“So like trump, you’re lying about the videos of Muslims celebrating the attack of 911.”
*Snort*
It was on CNN, moron :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXs2JTdJ1uc
I clearly remember video of dancing in the streets and candy being handed out to celebrate the fall of the towers. The dancers weren’t mormon, Hindu or Southern Baptist. The dropped of the screen shortly thereafter never to return. Soon everybody in the media was denying It ever happened.
More verifications of Muslims celebrating 9-11, nit-wit :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=cd52KkFwQWQ
No other religion but islam calls for the death of unbelievers and those of non faith. Islam is a DEATH CULT.
I’ll make the claim in person, Miner. Do you happen to be near NC? If so, name a time and a place. Also, as pointed out by Geoff and others, there were many Muslims that celebrated 9/11. Have you not been paying attention to Iran? Or Pakistan?
You’re wrong on everything you said.
Benjamin McDowell, a South Carolina white supremacist, was arrested on weapons charges in early 2017 in connection with a desire to launch some sort of white supremacist attack “in the spirit of Dylann Roof.” He was sentenced in 2018 to 33 months in prison.
Dakota Reed, a white supremacist from Washington state, was arrested on threat charges in December 2018 after ADL alerted law enforcement about his violent threats and fantasies, including shooting up a school or synagogue or “pulling a Dylann Roof.”
Jeffrey Clark, an active white supremacist from Washington, D.C., was arrested on weapons charges in November 2018 after his own family members warned law enforcement that he might become violent. Clark was an ardent admirer of Roof and even used a Gab screen name— “DC Bowl Gang”—that was a reference to Roof’s bowl-shaped haircut. Clark claimed there are only two kinds of people: “those who know Saint Dylann Roof did nothing wrong and those who hang.”
Elizabeth LeCron and Vincent Armstrong of Toledo, Ohio, were arrested in December 2018 on multiple charges related to a plot to blow up Toledo bar in order to cause mass casualties. The couple was fascinated by mass killers, including Roof. LeCron created a Tumblr account called “CharlestonChurchMiracle” and even corresponded with Roof by mail, telling him to “be strong.”
Miner – all anyone here has to make a JUDGEMENT on are you words. Your statement makes you as a moron. Perhaps with effort you can work your way out of moronland. Or you just stay a demtard.
I believe in freedom of association, so on principle I had to stand with the shop owner. Though emotionaly I was sympathetic to Fatihah. But when I found out that Fatihah is not only a member but a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood associated CAIR, and my sympathy for Fatihah was much diminished.
So, in other words, a few white supremacists commit acts of violence and are rightfully condemned for their actions. Yet, thousands of examples of Islamic terrorists committing acts of violence and your rush to defend Islam and it’s followers. NEVER ONCE speaking ill will towards that religion. You won’t condemn them when they commit acts of violence, nor will you recognize that there were many Muslims that celebrated 9/11 and many other attacks. What is this twisted fetish for Islam? Also, interesting that you completely gloss over my offer to meet in person when you criticize someone else for “not having the stones” to do so.
He took the sign down because he is a small shop in a small town being sued by multiple large organizations with a lot of money. If he won at the first level they would keep it going until they found a left wing judge that would rule in their favor.
It was a setup from the start. Article I read said the “soldier” drove from Tulsa (maybe an hour and a half one way) just to walk in the door and announce he is a muslim so he would be asked to leave.
Grounds for a lawsuit now days.
This lawfare, using the law to force people to conform to their demands.
Because Muslims are in the federal protected group (religion, sexual orientation, etc.) they can exert power, and they do.
Many in numerous groups do things just because they can. Right and wrong have nothing to do with their decisions to blame and sue. Thanks to the media and their sympathizers they have a louder voice than they deserve. Any privately owned business should have right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Why would any person want to go where they are not wanted/welcome and then try to force the hand of the owner? Answer, because they can and then swoon in the publicity.
Because anyone should be allowed access to the services that someone is providing to the public? One thing if you are literally only providing services to a very tiny select few. If you cut hair only for your friends and some neighbors, rock on, you shouldn’t have to take on some rando client. But if your business is open to the public, then you need to accept anyone unless you are doing something wrong. “what you are” isn’t doing something wrong. Walking in to your store shirtless and no shoes on might be considered wrong (though maybe not for a beach side business). Being a woman. Or black. Or a Muslim isn’t “wrong”.
Would a black woman want to get their hair cut by the local hair salon run by an obvious racist, misogynistic A-hole? I am going to guess probably no, but if that’s her only reasonable choice or she has to drive half an hour to the next town over, or maybe the other hair salon in town charges 50% more, then the discrimination obviously does hurt her.
The point is, for a long time now we decided (at least the majority of US society) that it isn’t okay for businesses to discriminate against a person because of the color of their skin, gender, religious beliefs, ethnicity and most of the states because of your sexual orientation.
Sometimes it is only the harm of making someone feel like crap because you are racist/homophobe/anti-insert religion/misogynist/whatever. Which makes you an A-hole. But plenty of times there are real harms from it. And some of it to is if you allow it, you go from one A-hole discriminating to “oh, its okay to do that? Okay well I am going to ban ‘insert group'”
Not to defend segregation or anything but this guy could’ve said something to the effect of “you said muslims and well not to tell an old family secret or anything but my mother was French and I’m a Scottish druid.” and got in with no problems or he simply could’ve kept his religion to himself and gotten in with no problems, also how did they know he was muslim? Did they ask or did he just volunteer that information? I can see the issue if they ask every customer their religion (sorry dude that’s between me and my deity or deities), but if they don’t ask why tell? Seriously Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
They went in specifically because they weren’t welcomed. Their goal was to build a legal case. My guess is that Raja’ee wasn’t even a gun owner and had no interest in actually using the range. Just wanted to get the ball rolling on the court.
As an Army reservist, I suspect he had at least a little knowledge about firearms. Whether he owned one or not is not relevant. I started shooting well before I bought my first firearm. Gee, that’s why ranges have rental guns behind the counter, doncha know.
Mark N.
Muslims wearing American military uniforms have murdered their fellow soldiers, American civilians, and committed other crimes . If you would like a list of links I can provide that for you?
The sign shouldn’t have been there anyway. If you’re going to refuse service to *anyone* don’t state the obvious by singling out a particular group. What gnashing of teeth would be heard had someone put up a sign that stated Jews weren’t welcome there. Looking at Fatihah he doesn’t “look” Muslim, ie – no beard or other distinguishing clothing that might single him out. While I don’t know how he presented at the range he likely (wild guess here) didn’t present as Muslim and probably identified only once he saw the ignorant sign. As none of us were likely present when this all went down we’re all speculating but it is foolish to support something so shortsighted and ignorant.
Yup, just another “bake-my-cake” type throwing his weight around. Still a stupid thing for the business to do, since there was no way they were going to prevail. Like putting up a sign that says “not wheelchair friendly” or something; lawsuit bait for professional troublemakers like this CAIR guy.
Don’t care to engage you on that question. And, I don’t intend to read any more comments on this topic below.
What I intend to do is to say is that anyone who is a U.S. citizen, or, otherwise legally in the U.S. should never be discriminated against like that sign clearly suggested. It’s simply un-American.
Retire your prejudices. This is America and America is still free.
If Muslims are allowed to continue to use our own laws against us we will cease to be free and will be under sharia law.
You mean like the Negroes (thats’s what they were called back then) did in the 1950s and ’60s? You know, by sitting in the front of the bus, going to restaurants with “No Negroes” signs posted? Or even worse, trying to attend schools and colleges that were “Whites Only.”
You make no point relating to my comment and current events. I wasn’t talking about the 50’s and 60’s, I was referring to today and Islam’s world goal of Islamic rule under sharia law and death to all infidels. They want to circumvent our constitution and replace it with sharia.
Can you explain exactly how this Muslim used our laws against us?
Is your problem that he wanted all the same rights and privileges accorded any other American citizen who has served his country honorably?
So the ugly American resurfaces, thanks Trump!
So can you explain how he served his country honorably when he’s on the board of directors for an Islamic terrorist front group? And it’s time to seek professional help, your Trump derangement syndrome is flaring.
@Mark N, I don’t remember so-called “Negroes” knocking down any of America’s tallest buildings or crashing a plane into the Pentagon. Black people were victims, not perpetrators.
Having said that, discrimination in public accommodations based on religion is illegal. But free speech is not illegal, even when it’s insulting to Allah.
What part of ‘we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone’ don’t you understand?
Wouldn’t the use of our own laws be…democracy and not Sharia? Not the sharpest knife in the drawer are ya, Pm? Damned if you do and damned if you don’t – using US laws against unjust practices is Sharia but refusing to assimilate and accept the laws is insular and “an attempt to institute Sharia.”
Well, well, I didn’t know I would hear from Archimedes today. Look at it like this…I’ll try to dumb it down for you. In WWII its estimated that 7% of Germans were Nazis or Nazi sympathizers. How’d that turn out for over 6 million people? Fast forward to today, where there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Conservative estimates are that of that number 10-15% are radicals, who want us dead. Do I need to do the math for you to show how many want to take over our country? If I put 1000 M&M’s in a bowl and said 1% were poison would you start eating? There’s a war going on and I pity you if you’re too ignorant to realize it.
America is still free as long as we agree with you. Discrimination is a basic human right and your definition of freedom is not very free. We are free to associate or we are not
You want to use government guns to make sure we are not.
The amount of exclamation points in their sign leads me to believe it’s an establishment you don’t want to frequent regardless of your religion.
In case you were not aware of it the Constitution protects all American Citizens. You cannot pick and chose which Constitutional Rights you will obey or claim other groups are second class citizens with less Constitutional Rights than you have.
The US Constitution, and particularly the Bill of Rights, was written to enumerate the inalienable rights of people that are to be protected from government infringement.
The Constitution does nothing to protect the inalienable rights of the people from infringement by other people.
Public accommodation laws and anti-discrimination laws are actually government infringement on the freedom of speech, religion, and/or association of sole proprietors and closely-held corporations.
Bingo.
Sorry Adolf but the Supreme Court has ruled otherwise and its up to them to interpret Constitutional Law. You lose. No discrimination. Its that simple. Now what part of this do you not understand.
“and its up to them to interpret Constitutional Law.”
That’s not a power explicitly granted the Court in the Constitution. It was made up doctrine in Marbury v Madison. It’s an unconstitutional power wielded by the Court.
http://constitutionality.us/SupremeCourt.html
John said “That’s not a power explicitly granted the Court in the Constitution.”
You live in your own fantasy world of meaningless quotes. The Courts have ruled time after time against discrimination that both private and public groups have been guilty of. I don’t have to list the obvious ones but it does prove your rant is pure nonsense and has nothing to do with Historic reality. The Court Rules, their decisions stand and become law and you cannot do a damn thing about it. You may wish for a Storm Trooper type of country but that is not what America is all about and never has been all about. Yes change sometimes come slowly but in the end the Storm Troopers always lose. Women got the right to vote, McCarthy was exposed as the maniac he was, Women sued and won the right to be admitted to “White Racist Good Old Boy Clubs” along with Racial and Religious Minorities that had been bared from joining for decades. Women reporters sued over equal pay and won, Women sued and won to interview Athletes in locker rooms. The list is miles long and the Far Right lost every time. I even remember when the Far Right sued over ordinances banning out houses too and when they said no one would ever use Freeways and they were too expensive to build. The Far Right lost every time.
“You live in your own fantasy world of meaningless quotes.”
What I posted are facts. Argue with reality all you want. Also, you are making argument on points I did not raise or comment upon. Reading comprehension is important. Seriously, you rant like some loony leftist twit.
He did it on purpose so he could sue. Its was SJW’s do.
Maybe they could put a mounted hog’s head at the entrance and have a hog hide entrance mat with a sign as to what it is.
One range somewhere has a plate of bacon on the counter and requires customers to eat a slice before using the range.
“Range Rules” I could get behind…
I know, fuck Jews, am I right?
That’s no worse than “fuck Muslims” so yes, right.
Because some hostile alien religions should have special protections.right?
“I know, fuck Jews, am I right?”
Wrong.
I would cheerfully offer a waiver to anyone who self-identified as being Jewish, with no problem, whatsoever… 🙂
Now I see why the gun that went into the synagogue in Pittsburgh, fueled by the hatred I see right here in these comments.
Some folks need to re-read the constitution’s prohibition against discrimination on the basis of religion. Not only the first amendment but also the clause that says there can be no religious test for any public office or office of trust.
Yep, go ahead and Slurp up some more of that pigs ass, I’ve raised hogs and I ain’t eaten none of it. And anyone who wants to follow the Commandments of the Old Testament will not eat pigs ass either, just backsliding Christians are the ones who want to munch big chunks of hogs ass.
Repeat over and over: DISAPPROVAL IS NOT HATE. Now grow up.
Bacon shaming…that’s a new one, for sure.
you clearly missed the part in Acts where it stated that there were no more dietary restrictions for Christians. Then again I strongly suspect that you haven’t read the Bible. I also strongly suspect you never raised any pigs based on your disdain of them. I have some suspicions you aren’t of any Abrahamic religion, but if you are its not the oldest one or the middle one, possible the newest
“Some folks need to re-read the constitution’s prohibition against discrimination on the basis of religion. ”
You’re a liar or a damn fool.
1st amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Everything about this is the government can’t , not the people .
And doing so is indentured servitude which is also unconstitutional.
What you refer to is a subordinate statute.
The only thing the Constitution prohibited from the people was alcohol and that was repealed quickly.
“Some folks need to re-read the constitution” – you for example. For thousand and first time: Constitution lists powers of and restricts the government. Private business can discriminate against anyone. Not that it is a good idea. But it’s not against Constitution.
Miner, a video of Muslims celebrating the 9/11 attacks was posted. Take a break from diflection and distraction and admit you’re wrong.
That’s definitely a more creative way to accomplish their claimed goal.
If everyone brings their dogs, that should do it. No sign necessary. Muslims are taught and raised to hate dogs, especially black ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjUFV2idv4Y
Please post the proof of your claim from the Quran.
I already did. It’s given in the video.
Mohamed, piss be upon him, was a profiteering sociopath with narcissistic tendencies who spouted self-serving hate and nonsense. (Proof of that can be found in the Quran and the Hadith(s) explained throughout the videos by Acts17Apologetics and ApostateProphet, peace be upon him.
Any muslim who claims that islam is a religion of peace and tolerance either doesn’t really know squat about the Quran and the Hadith(s) OR is a liar.
If you don’t want to watch videos, feel free to browse http://www.answeringmuslims.com/
Welcome to america. Bigotry is finally being made illegal.
Thought control, you like that don’t ya?
“Welcome to america.”
Learn to capitalize America properly, dumbass…
👍
👏👍
So is a restaurant sign proclaiming ‘no shoes, no shirt, no service’ bigotry? Grow up.
No, a sign that says “No Jews, No Muslims, No Catholics” that would be prejudicial. Think harder when coming up with an example.
Here is the thing: you have the right to refuse service to anyone because of WHO they are, not WHAT they are. If it is something you are born as (race, religion, color, creed, national origin, or sex), well, you can’t do anything about that. You could argue that you can change religion but, well, Europe had a few wars about that and it didn’t work out too well so let sleep dogs lie. Basically if it is something that you ARE and can’t change, then you can’t discriminate.
Now if it is something you believe then you aren’t protected. I could walk into my business and ask everyone who is a Democrat, Republican, wear the color purple, or likes vanilla ice cream over chocolate to pack their stuff and go. This is doubly true in an at will employment state. Hate my favorite football team? Fired. Drive a Honda? Fired. Member of the Nazi party? Fired. Communist? Fired.
The issue at hand was two fold in this case. The store said it was a “political protest” sign and wasn’t actually enforced. However, the Soldier was asked to leave. They can’t ban a Muslim any more than they can ban Jews, women, people from Italy, or people of Northern European ancestry. Their workaround, which does work, is banning specific organizations, in this instance CAIR. You can ban any civil organization you like. I could ban the KKK from my store if I wanted to.
As to why he did it? Well, it is American an a free country. Why do people do political protest by open carrying in a Starbucks? The answer is simple: he knew it was bullshit and he couldn’t sue until he was denied service.
“They can’t ban a Muslim any more than they can ban Jews, women, people from Italy, or people of Northern European ancestry.”
I’m pretty sure there are certain exceptions to this statement based on which group has preferred victimhood status in the eyes of the political establishment.
Only because those types don’t fight for their place the way Muslims/blacks/gays/etc do. There’s no professional OFWG version of CAIR out there making trouble for black barbershops full of assholes or Mosques full of bigoted jackasses. So little interest in exposing those groups even, that much of society wrongly believes that those groups are not openly bigoted. I myself have been charged extra for being white at a fried seafood joint, yet I did not refuse to pay, I did not holler, I did not throw my food across the counter, I did not hire a lawyer, I did not call my congressman, I did not burn the building down, and instead merely glared back at the cashier while paying and resolved to never return; everyone gets what they want.
It’s hard to even imagine such restraint from any of these protected groups these days, where a forged slur on a receipt is enough to ruin the reputation of an anonymous white person.
Doesn’t change the fact this gun range is run by fools…but they should be free to be fools, and like-minded fools should be free to reward their own. That’s how this freedom thing works.
“I myself have been charged extra for being white at a fried seafood joint, yet I did not refuse to pay, I did not holler, I did not throw my food across the counter, I did not hire a lawyer, I did not call my congressman, I did not burn the building down, and instead merely glared back at the cashier while paying and resolved to never return; everyone gets what they want.”
I had one of those a number of years back here in town. When she smiled at me when she told me what the total was, I glanced up at the menu a moment to verify the price, paid and got my change. I smiled right back at her, and then started laughing at her. I kept right on laughing as I exited the establishment.
By the time I got to the door and my laughter was getting louder, she wasn’t smiling at me anymore, in fact, she looked kinda *pissed*.
Right back at ya, lady… 😉
So we are not really free unless we give up our right to not associate. Your way is just tyranny with a smile
You do realize, don’t you, that the protected classes, among which are sex, race, religion and national origin, were defined by statute fifty years ago, right? You can “associate” with whomever you like, EXCEPT when you are a public accommodation, i.e., a business open to the public, as was this range. Make it a private range then you can discriminate all you want.
Yup, the ivory-tower set enjoy a highly discriminatory lifestyle, hopping from country club to night club to association gala, all of which discriminate against whatever they care to, often rather openly.
Well if that was correct ( which it is not) then years ago women who sued all Men’s private “good old boys clubs” would not have passed Constitutional Muster (which it did) and Women reporters going into Men’s changing rooms after a game would also have lost their law suites against discrimination ( which they did not) The list is long in both private and public law suits.
You are right about one thing. Being muslim is something that you can’t change, just like your race. Well, theoretically you can, but then you’ll have to be put to death as an apostate according to islam.
Well, I’m glad I took the time to read your whole comment before I replied 😀
This was a reply to a thread that apparently got nuked for being too edgy.
Apparently the higher ups here don’t appreciate a little bit of history. I’m not being defamatory in any manner just stating what has been written down in the history books.
Just another example of the ever widening swath of capitulation…
Do we really have “patriots” arguing that people should be excluded from places simply because of their chosen religion? You don’t get to pick and choose which portions of the Constitution and Bill of Rights you are going to enforce. Anti-gun folks stereotype gun owners as ignorant, close-minded bigots. Don’t make them right about you.
A true reading of Islam and a true reading of the First Amendment would exclude Islam from its protections. Islam sanctions warfare against non Muslims. It’s holiest act is Jihad. The First Amendment doesn’t not protect warfare or murder as a religious practice.
They should all be deported.
Tell that to the various Popes who engaged in religious warfare for a few centuries in the Middle East, and then against the Protestants for a few centuries more. And that is just a start.
Religious practices that were abandoned centuries ago are not modern problems. If a sect of Christians demanded refuge in America but they insisted on keeping the tradition of burning witches and heretics at the stake, I would demand they be denied entry for the same reason Muslims should be denied: murder is not a protected religious practice. If these hypothetical Christmas were admitted to the country anyway and they continued this tradition, they would be put away for murder and the judge would cut down any attempt at a 1st Amendment defense.
As it is, how many men-at-arms do Christians keep in the field to battle religious enemies? Few, if any. How many men-at-arms do Muslims have? Between ISIS, Al Qaeda, Al Shabab (they are actively recruiting in the Midwest btw), Boko Haram, Hamas, and others I can’t name off the top of my head, they have had many tens of thousands of men combined and a global support infrastructure worked by men and women who believe in their cause just as fervently as the front line fighters. Even if Jihadism is a minority belief, the numbers indicate that it is frighteningly common.
Mark N
You don’t have to travel to the other side of the earth to find religious Warfare and discrimination. Historically it’s right here in the United States.
There are plenty of white Mormons who have been murdered because of their faith. Their bodies are strewn all across the United States.
In fact the only pogrom that has ever happened in the United States was a pogrom against the Mormons. For over 100 years you could legally kill a white person in America as long as it was a Mormon. Based on the Mormon execution order. Signed by the Governor of the state of Missouri in the 1800s.
So please stop with this finger pointing is self-flagellation. And learn some American history for a change.
“Even if Jihadism is a minority belief, the numbers indicate that it is frighteningly common.”
I have heard estimates of practicing Muslims that have no problem with Jihad could be as high as 10 percent.
10 percent of 1 *billion* practicing Muslims is… 100 million.
Where this becomes a problem is that the 10 percent, while 90 percent of them would never be motivated to engage in Jihad themselves, since they believe Jihad is justified, they may well keep quiet about Jihad plots in their midst.
Yeah, that’s a *problem*…
I agree. Its kinda like the “good” cops who turn a blind eye to the bad cops.
Mark – you perhaps refer to popes that were in the habit of defending the West from the predation of the Muslims invaders?
yes they may have but what is not taught about that is what came before that. 400 years of moslems taking over europe and enslaving the predominately christian people of those countries. Those people that were being enslaved asked for help and the crusades started. Medina around the time Islam started was Jewish….. within 5 years of mohamed and his followers going there and claiming asylum it was no longer a jewish city or region. Mohamed and his followers had converted, killed or enslaved all jews in the region.
BTW Islam still follows that same model today. Any muslims that dont follow the koran to the letter (eg good moslems) they hate with just as much vehemence as they do any who dont follow islam at all.
@Danny I agree, as well. Cops are not our friends and should always be viewed as the enemy. I know that may be extreme and there may be some decent people that happen to be in law enforcement, but those same cops will lie, cheat and steal from you and will happily cover up other cops actions if they were given a choice. Government employees shouldn’t be armed.
In this particular interpretation, the entire religion of Islam is not protected by the 1st, because it is inciting violence. You’d have a long winded court battle about it, and depending on the judges, possibly win.
If you want to believe in 1000 year old dogmatic literature, go for it. It shouldn’t be banned, or not protected by the 1st. All speech is free speech. People who live through emotion of an old book (written by men, mind you) cannot be swayed. This includes Jews, Christians, Buddhists, all of them.
The Christians are responsible for much more killing and murdering than anyone will admit. Just check in with devout Catholic Adolf Hitler or Russian orthodox priest Stalin.
Most religions are just people control and greed machines, with no redeeming value to civilization. We’ve made the progress we have in spite of religion not because of it.
Hitler wasn’t Catholic.
Saying Hitler was Catholic and Stalin Orthodox demonstrates your historical illiteracy. Further, even if true, it doesn’t mean their faith were the inspiration for their friends.
Mein Kampf also shows a bizarrely racialized interpretation of Christianity:
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. . . . And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. …Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. …
– Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922“
Guess you’ve never read the old testament and all the depictions of murder, rape, and slavery condoned by god. And the genicide perpetrated by god himself.
*genocide
Not equivalent at all, no matter how you spell it. The Bible records Bronze Age history and myth.
Islam commands its adherents to do all that stuff — the killing, conquering, and subjugating of everyone who isn’t them — right now.
I would respond, but Ing already did it for me.
Part of the reason why I left Catholicism and became agnostic was because morality is supposed to be as eternal and immutable as God. It’s obviously changed at some point, which is a contradiction, rendering it not real.
‘We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone’ is NOT bigotry, it is a policy. Don’t like it? Then don’t patronize said business. There; I fixed it for you.
If you do it because of their choice of religions, it’s bigotry, dummy.
The anti-gunners would love to quote a lot of people on this forum and sadly they would be correct.
Nowhere in the constitution does it say private citizens have to trade with or allow on their property people whom they don’t want to. As I said below that notion came in title II of the 1964 civil rights act.
I imagine the the issue is title II of the 1964 civil rights act. Though I myself would not exclude paying customers for any reason other than harm to my business and or customers, I posit that people have a right to associate or not as they see fit and just because money is being exchanged shouldn’t change that.
Man, this place’s comments section is like an overwrought caricature of gun owners as seen through the eyes of Nancy Pelosi.
Grow the fuck up.
You first. How old are you; twelve?
His comment was spot on, Clark.
The tragedy is that you don’t have to be a Nancy Pelosi to realize that some of these people make her comments and or beliefs correct. What better ammunition to use against decent Gun Owners because it shouts “You see, just read these people comments, do you want people like these owning dangerous weapons”? When you really think about it even decent gun owners are frightened to read such Storm Trooper comments. It takes one back to “The Night of Chrystal”. Tribalism at its most gross, obscene and dangerous.
I’m no fan of moose-lims but this is BS. My son knows some patriotic and “good” Muslim’s from the army(and he speaks Arabic). I’ve had a Muslim doctor(so have my kid’s). And nearby Eagle sports& gun range(Oak Forest,IL) is Muslim owned. They seem to be quite patriotic Americans. Oh and I need no azzhole remarks. The 2nd Amendment is for everyone…
I absolutely agree. I have no problem with a Muslim who practices a watered down and peaceful form of that religion. A patriotic American is a patriotic American.
The problem with Islam I have is that if you follow the Koran as written, and truly follow Mohammed’s teachings then there is no way you can live a life and have a world view compatible with western values.
Islam as taught by most terrorist imams is not a “corrupted” form of it as the left would have you believe. All the evil that stems from Islam comes from teachings and practices taught by Muhammad.
You beat me to the azzhole remark. What part of ‘we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone’ don’t you understand?
The part where its illegal. You know that little sign you put out in the window of your shop doesn’t have much if any real legal validity right? You just do it to fool yourself and any customer ignorant enough to take it at face value. Its like the sign that says “we don’t dial 911”, well then you’re a fool. You can bitch about it till your blue in the face, and guys here have,… for years, makes no difference. It’s over, nothing more to be said about it. Refuse service at your own legal peril.
So all the killing ordered by Jehovah in the Bible is A OK? It makes no difference if your imaginary sky daddy says it’s OK, killing other people and taking their land is wrong whether it’s the land of Canaan or the land of Palestine or the land of the Cherokees.
No justice, no peace.
In your case: no brain, no commenting.
Jews and Christians left the Bronze Age behind when the Bronze Age ended. Read the Koran: Islam commands its adherents to kill, invade, and conquer NOW and forever.
Islam wants you and me crushed; we either submit to their sharia law or we die. It’s a poisonous political death cult that only looks like a religion.
Yes, there are good Muslims…I know some myself, people I’d trust with my children and my life…but they’re outliers. Any Muslim who is a good, peaceful human being and doesn’t support forcing everyone to live under Islamic rule is that way despite Islam, not because of it.
Islam requires that it be the *only* law — which means that it wants to end the Constitution itself. The Constitution doesn’t protect treason and sedition.
Treat individuals the way their individual behavior warrants and groups the way their group behavior warrants. Many Muslims are not our enemies…but their religion is.
“Islam wants you and me crushed; we either submit to their sharia law or we die.”
Close, but not *quite*, Ing.
There is a third option, paying the Jizya (tax).
“Jizya is a per capita yearly tax historically levied on non-Muslim subjects, called the dhimma, permanently residing in Muslim lands governed by Islamic law.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
So, it’s convert to Islam, or pay, or the sword…
Paying someone who hates me so that I can exist as a second-class citizen definitely counts as being crushed.
yep and through the entire history of islam the jizya has been set so high as to mean borderline starvation for those that refuse to convert so in the end the result is the same…. convert or die
I have literally lost respect for most of you in this comment section and will not partake in TTAG after this. All of you sit hear and preach 2nd amendment this and 2nd amendment that. You praise people who walk the streets in “protest” openly carrying their AR’s just to piss people off because they can and it is their protected right under the constitution. And piss on any privately owned business that doesn’t allow firearms because “shall not be infringed”. But this guy goes in and expresses his 1st amendment right and all of a sudden he’s the bad guy? Deport Muslims? Are you freaking serious. You are literally being the stereotypical scumbags that the media portrays. If you did even the slightest bit of research then you would find that Islam is a religion based mostly on love and respect, and that the actions of the few do not represent the intentions of the many. You would also find that Christianity, throughout history, has been one of the most violent religions known to mankind. Maybe you guys should read a book every now and again and educate yourselves
LOL. This is not Quora where you get paid for creating controversy.
You bullshit with these delusional jag offs for free. Who’s dumber? And before you ask,… yes,… I am getting paid.
Hmmm…good point.
Why thank you my good man.
You’ve obviously never read the Koran, studied Mohammed or the history of how Islam started and grew. Nothing loving or peaceful about it.
Lots of shameful things in the history of Christianity, but the history of Islam is filled with far more violence, slavery, child abuse, child brides and more.
It’s not even about the religion’s past; any religion that’s been around for more than a couple hundred years has some nasty crap in its history.
Just look at what the religion does RIGHT NOW.
Islam commands its adherents to kill and conquer right now. And forever. It demands nothing less than the destruction of our nation and our entire culture.
Based mostly on love and respect? Tell that to the women living in Muslim countries. Grow up.
“If you did even the slightest bit of research then you would find that Islam is a religion based mostly on love and respect, and that the actions of the few do not represent the intentions of the many.”
Absolute rubbish! Islam is certainly NOT about peace and tolerance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBGn9KHX50k&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ng4s1Mcn4c&t
Wait? You ever had any respect for any of these guys? Why? Its just a bunch of bitter old fat white guys bitching about a world they no longer understand in between beer runs and government provided dialysis. One day hopefully they’ll be able to get both at the same place,… Walmart.
“I have literally lost respect for most of you in this comment section and will not partake in TTAG after this.”
Since you identify yourself as, and I quote, “captain fudd”, a fudd won’t be missed.
Bye, Felica-fudd.
Don’t let the door hit ya, where the good Lord split ya! 🙂
So sad one of the great Human Beings on this forum is leaving us. We decent folks need you as a fellow arrow to help keep the world civilized. Do not give up the fight. Jump right down their throats as you did today. Remember the line from a favorite Bogart Movie that the resistance fighter against the Nazi’s Paul Henreid made “Welcome to the Fight”. Thanks for kicking the Storm Troopers right in the balls Captain, I salute you.
really? i think you need to carefully and deeply study the history of islam and the koran itself. There is little love, tolerance or respect unless you are a devout moslem in the koran or in the history of islam 🙁
In saying that i have known some lovely muslims who i would trust and respect but they did not follow islam in its entirety
“Bullshit, it’s my fcking range and I can choose who shoots on it.” That’s what I’d tell them and if it came to not having that right I’d close the SOB down. Let them Mooselims build their own range and run me off of it. I’d bet the ULCA wouldn’t help me one bit, because, well we all know the reason why the because. That cat drove from Tulsa to Oklahoma City just to stir sht I’d reckon. And I’m saying right here, I’ve got no use for Mooselims, is that pedudice? You damn straight it is. And then
Hahaha oooohhh, wow! How many ya got in ya pal? 9? 10? Do you keep your can bag inside or outside your trailer?
It’s really none of government’s business. Government ought not discriminate but that shouldn’t limit the individual’s right to association; or not to associate in this instance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw
Obama is fighting like hell for his people! The man is indefatigable!
I know that in a gun store you can refuse service to anyone for no apparent reason and it’s legal. I would imagine gun ranges would have the same latitude. But it probably wasn’t a good idea to post a sign beforehand. Which is probably why the ACLU backed down after they took the sign down.
He could of had a BLT on the counter. Works like garlic.
I’m glad most posters here are intllectually consistent unlike demoRats and the general consensus seems to be that private businesses like this shooting range or social media platforms or internet service providers should be free under market principles to refuse products, services or content hosting to anyone they damn well please.
Haaaa for Raja’ee Fatihah…he still can’t go in he HAS a know/admitted connection with CAIR a KNOWN funder of terrorists!
It’s laughable that the racist ACLU is fighting for muslim rights, but not black christian civil rights. The Southern Poverty Law Center has been outed as a racist law firm. And the ACLU is just as racist. They are VERY SELECTIVE in taking a case and not taking a case.
If banks and media companies refuse service to the gun business, why is that different???? I was told on TTAG it’s ok to discriminate.
Did you know that there are black owned companies in the firearms business? Just as there are women owned, Jewish owned companies in the firearms business?
AND they have faced historical discrimination because of who they are. I don’t see the ACLU rushing to sue to help these discriminated groups?
I’d like to ask the Jewish homosexual atheist communist lawyers at the ACLU why they have never brought a case against any racist gun control law?????
The white Libertarians Liberals and the Left, the three L’s, have ALWAYS supported race based discrimination. They just each do it for different reasons.
Wow your all over the place with that one buddy. The ACLU represents African Americans as plantiffs in anti-discrimination law suits all the time, like literally all the time, have for decades. I would venture to guess that over 90 % of discrimination against Christians that has occurred in this country has been perpetrated by other Christians. Christianity was the characteristic at odds, race was, because organized Christianity has actively promoted racism for most of its history. But yeah the aclu is pro gun control everyone pretty much knows that, they don’t make much attempt to hide it
Chris T is black you idiot.
Huh? Can someone help me understand this? American soldier. Muslim. Might be called on to fight terrorists. Sits on board with known terrorist ties….
Exactly. Too many people on here can’t see the forest for the trees.
During the GWOT, DOO recruited piles of mooolims because it needed native speakers of various 3rd world barbaric languages. AND gave them undeserved security clearances AND freaking US citizenship. Moronic. Short AND long term BS.
No one has yet mentioned that Americas’ first international war was against “musselmen”. The US refused to pay tribute to musselmen and the practice of boarding US merchant vessels and enslaving the crew. NO musselmen should be in the US, much less in any position in our governance. In my (not humble) opinion any one that claims to be a musselman is by default anti-American. I refuse to accept the idea of “good” musselmen.
Historically large swathes of the American population have said effectively the same thing you just said about Muslims about 1) Germans 2) Irish 3) Polish 4) Italians 5) Jews 6) Chinese 7) Mexicans 8) Puerto Ricans 9) Japanese etc, etc, ad nauseam. All of those demographic groups are still hear doing essentially the same things with their lives that you are on a day to day basis. What does that tell you about your world view? Ever stop to consider that maybe just like those that said the same things in the past your, oh, I don’t know,… wrong?
I understand your comment. I would suggest that, except for the Jews, the rest were at least Christian. Islam is the Devils religion. If a muslim renounces islam he can be put to death by other muslims. Christians do not practice this, nor do Budda, Hindu or many others. The europeans fought 700 years to drive them from europe and back to the middle east. Must we do it again? Please read mohameds writings. Well, not his, cause he couldn’t write. Oh, and ask the women how the feel about FGM, and child brides. Or gays tossed from buildings. Or the 37 executions in Saudi Arabia including on crucifxion this week. (mostly fellow muslims). Get off the multicultural BS.
Chinese and Japanese immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century were not predominately Christian in any sense we would define it today, but regardless. There are dozens of types of “Christian” all of which have hated and killed each other at some point in history. Ever stop to consider that’s exactly why people come here, to get away from all that bullshit. The founding fathers never said “except these people, except those people”. Ronald Reagan never said “except these people, except those people.” He said we were the last great hope for freedom on earth. America is a great culture, based on principles of god given human equality set forth in our founding documents and the most powerful nation in human history. We should not hesitate to show the world our generosity for fear of being seen as weak. We should fear that accepting others will some how change that, when for 231 years it has not ? Where is your faith in America my friend?
You progs just LOVE you BD equivalency theories. Islam and Chicomland are at war with the US. Much of the US has figured this out. What is you’re excuse for being an ignorant fool?
You had better go to Hamtramick, MIchigan as the “old White People” elected an all Muslim council to run the city and they turned out to do a better job than the corrupt fake Christian Politicians that infested the town before them. Surveys taken show the people support the Muslims running the city 100 per cent. Now talk your way out of this one.
The ranges I have belonged to charge a membership fee and could be considered private clubs. You can’t make a private club admit people who don’t agree with the clubs isms. No matter that universities attempted to force Bible clubs to admit atheists and let them run for club offices. It would like having a Habib wearing receptionist at the Jewish Federation at 2100 Arch in Philadelphia.
Thanks for the reference to Jefferson’s war with the Barbary pirates. The illiterates and contemporary apologists seem to forget the US fought Muslim pashas, beys, and emirs of Northern Africa because they were intentionally stealing ships, cargo, and ransoming American citizens. Muslims are compelled by their religion to lie, cheat, steal, and kill. All things being equal, their intended victims should be free not only to refuse association with ((THEM)) by choice, but to defend their persons against ((THEM)), as well.
On the issue of the sign banning Muslims from the range on the basis of religion, by law, it is illegal.
Use large, black dogs instead. I know by experience.
What is NOT illegal is keeping large, black dogs on the premises and within the business itself to deter those who aren’t welcome. Let ((THEM)) come come in and b*tch about that instead and you will know ((THEM)) for what they truly are.
Yes, the American government did oppose the Barbary Coast pirates who were intercepting American ships and taking their cargo. But what was the cargoes the American ships were hauling from Africa to the USA? It was the slave trade our military was protecting, and that’s not a good thing to be proud of.
WRONG and BS troll. The African slave trade source was moooslem slavers. At the time of the Barbary war, the transport was on euro ships. The moooslem/Barbary “pirates” seized the ships and held hostage crews from ANY country who they were not afraid of or who did not pay them tribute.
What 1/2 assed school taught you your particular brand of stupid? NO knowledge of history but all kind of run off at the mouth.
More to the point, why is a member of the board of directors of an anti American terrorist support group (CAIR) in the Army Reserve?
For the same reason activist minority hyphenated “Americans” get elected to the House of Representatives.
Their presence is intended to eventually mold and change policy for those they represent. Given enough time and a numerical majority in a democratic system their purpose will become obvious.
@side show bob; I did mention Hindus and Buddist religions. Our founders dropped the ball on a few things. Most glaring is the lack of term limits. Islam is not a religion that will assimilate, it refuses to change to the local culture. The Chinese and Japanese have assimilated as did the Jews, Irish, er al. As I said above READ the qouran. Or look at Europe now. The real world is a harsh place, deny the threat of Islam at our peril. Then get back to the rest of us.
You must live in a cave. Everywhere you go you can see that Muslims have assimilated. They run convince stores, they are doctors, lawyers, nurses, postmen etc, etc, and they run an entire town in Michigan called Hamtramick and the old White Folks elected them. I would say that all this is very successful assimilation. Decades ago they said the Irish, the Italians, the Japanese, Chinese and the Latino’s could never assimilate. By the end of the first born generation they all did 100 per cent. That is a very good record and every one should be proud America does this best and makes this possible. Its because we have fewer and fewer people that discriminate against them anymore.
I will concede that SOME have assimilated. But I will also give as an example the Rep. from Minnesota. I will also give the example of Europe today. Perhaps a second or third generation has assimilated. In their own teachings the have a system of conquest from within. I.E. cair, and the original article above. This is using our system of laws against us. I will also give the example of the unending strife between Israel vs. the rest of the arab middle east. Also the so called “honor” killings that no longer make it into the national news. Or the fact the FBI are “watching” certain mosques and Imams. Or the Fort Hood shooter or etc. NO to muslims.
BS Vlad. They had TAKE OVER communities in Mich and Minn. NOT become Americans.
Who voted to allow them in to the US or a community? NO ONE. Unilateral acts of the deep state progtard dems. The dems need a steady flow of undesirable into the US to maintain their hold on gov’t.
Neiowa said “They had TAKE OVER communities in Mich and Minn. NOT become Americans.”
They were voted into office by “the old white people”. Now what part of this do you not understand. Should we send you the voting records? Nahh you would come up with some wild Right Wing Conspiracy Theory as when Trump claimed millions of illegal Latinos were voting against him. Sane people only realize when they hear such rants how dangerous the Far Right Has become. But in the end as usual the majority of voters are level headed good Americans that will prevent the Far Right from destroying America and its cherished values of freedom of religion, freedom from discrimination and separation of church and state and the right to free speech. All hated and loathed by the Far Right.
You are an idiot.
They don’t assimilate AT ALL!!
Every major Muslim community in the West live in their own ghettos of their own choosing.
Sweden is the rape capital of Europe because of Islam.
The incest rate in the UK is rising because of Pakistani Muslims, documented fact.
Western Europe had become a total s*ithole because of Muslims with their African counterparts. All experienced terrorist attacks attributed to Islam. Poland and Hungary have had 0 attacks. You want to know why? No Muslims!! Hmmm what a coincidence! Keeping out people prone to terrorism and allowing them to remain high-IQ and white=safe, high trust society to live in.
Islam is a cancer to humanity. May all the vermin followers rot
Charles Parker said: “Islam is a cancer to humanity. May all the vermin followers rot”
I would like to take you to Arlington National Cemetery and to the graves of Muslims that fought and died for the U.S. I would then grab you by your neck and slam your face into one of their headstones and afterwards be forced to wash with soap and water the stench you left by touching their sacred graves.
What this range should have done is only sell targets that are likenesses of Mohammed
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