“I’ve driven them quite a bit,” Pocatello, ID PD Officer Nick Edwards tells idahostatejournal.com re: the department’s new MRAP. “We had quite a few of them assigned to us in Iraq.” That’s not the money shot for reason.com. Writer Zenon Evans’ attention is captured by Officer Edwards contention that “you can’t put a price on safety.” Which of course you can. But I’d like to highlight the connection between the march of police militarization across America and the fact that combat veterans are filling the ranks of your local po-po like never befo’. Don’t get me wrong. Thank you for your service, ladies and gentlemen but . . .

When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When you’re a combat vet, all criminals may look like enemy combatants. Hence the new police recruits’ wholehearted enthusiasm for tooling up and training like a soldier – to the point where the difference between a police SWAT team and an Army combat unit is more about where the officers billet at the end of the day than equipment, dress, training and tactics.

Reason.com hits the nail on the head by pointing out the flaw in Pocatella Police Chief Scott Marchand’s rationale for buying an MRAP for his town of 50k souls.

Police Chief Scott Marchand gave a peek into his fantasy with his new tool: “This is not just a SWAT ride. What we want to do is get everybody patrol-trained. So, In the middle of the night, 2 o’clock in the morning, you have somebody down, you have an officer down… anybody can get in and get there for the rescue.” . . .

What Edwards means when he says “keeping someone safe” is “police officer.” Whether they’re being terrorized by a no-knock raid or actually losing their life in one, countless Americans in just about every state are not being kept safe by the militarization of America’s police equipment and tactics.

But what the hey, why would someone expect cops care about bookish concepts like “militarization”? A Springfield, Illinois sheriff who just got to whip out his MRAP for the first time in a “standoff” with a man in a trailer dismissed questions about militarization say, “You know, militarization of local law enforcement is something politicians need to worry about, not at our level. We’re worried about protection, safety and security of the people in the county.”

Just as it’s true that “guns don’t kill people,” MRAPs don’t make police departments into totalitarian tools. It’s the underlying culture infecting our public safety officers that’s most concerning, that leads to flash-bang and MRAP-mania.

I reckon it’s time we took a good look at the police hiring process, to make sure that combat vets get the same vetting process as anyone else. If we don’t want the government to wage war on its own people, perhaps we shouldn’t give warriors special treatment when it comes to staffing the police.

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326 COMMENTS

  1. Unfortunately, we’re on the “them” side of the Us vs Them mentality. The opinion of the serfs wasn’t asked for.

    • Keep up the good work Robert. Regardless of those who don’t get “it”, there is no denying that the police militarization of this country is in full swing. Each article that you post proves this point.

      • I agree with the militarization of the police getting out of hand…

        But RF insinuating the vets are vetted (no pun intended) less thoroughly than pure civvies during the LEO hiring process is LUDICROUS.

        As a combat vet, I applied to be a sheriff deputy in GA. I went through the same hiring process as everyone else and 2 months into it, I stopped moving forward because I found other work. If I’d been hired as a cop in the city, I’d have had to go to the same schooling as everyone else.

        Want to know why so many vets are joining law enforcement agencies? Are you ready for this?

        BECAUSE THERE ARE NO F*CKING JOBS!

        I couldn’t find a job to save my life after I ETSed. Nobody wanted to hire me for more than minimum wage. The .gov is terrible at teaching soldiers how to translate military skills into civilian speech and these days, a lot of empoyers are requiring a college degree to push a broom around.

        The cold hard fact is that a lot of vets are joining police depts. because they have no other choice other than to live off of noodles and canned ragu for a few years while going to school and drumming up student loan debt (which is the route I chose to take).

        I just thought I would clarify some misunderstandings that this article seems to be based on. 🙂

        • its the SAME CHOICE the rest of us have , so don’t feel SPECIAL.
          We can all type in caps if we need to.

        • ^ Huh?

          Are you really insinuating that a kid right out of high school should have the same workplace marketability as a vet with combat and command experience who spent 4 years (on average) learning to be a disciplined, trained professional in his or her field?

          If so, I don’t think we have anything else to talk about. Also… I’m not sure what you are getting at with the caps comment. There are a number of ways to put emphasis into one’s writing (you know, since people can’t hear one’s tone). I chose to use caps in order to add emphasis to a critical point. ::shrug::

        • Don’t listen to these punks who have no idea what it means to serve Bear. The pendulum is swinging back in the other direction when it comes to public attitude twoards the military, now that the wars are winding down and the patriotism of 9/11 is dead. It’s swinging back towards spitting on all us baby killers.

        • True.
          And how I despise that.
          I grew up waiting for my dad at the docks in San Diego, only to watch the “hippies” drowning out everything and calling my dad a baby killer.
          I had hoped that patriotism would have lasted. Yellow ribbons, etc. I hung them out for the kids.
          The one guy who was former military we hired was a navy SEAL. (Confirmed).
          What a great guy. Calm, cool… He’s become a really good officer.

        • It was the same post-Vietnam with many, many combat skilled vets who faced hiring departments staffed by those who never served & who regarded vets with contempt. The 1970’s were a bad time. As a VN helo pilot I was able to join the National Guard & survived on drill pay & TDY for years.

          Still, I think I would prefer cops who are vets to cops with no military background.

        • The thing is, is that to be fair you don’t compare a military vet with a new high school grad. You compare a vet with someone who has several years in the job market or a degree of some sort. That person may have marketable skills that someone who spent the last four as a trigger puller may not have. It just depends what that civie has been doing with the last few years. It also depends on what marketable skills a vet learned in the service. An avionics tech is probably going to have a more marketable skill set then a grunt, regardless of who “deserves” it more. So don’t get all upset because a civie gets chosen over you. Chances are they have skills and experience that you don’t, so go out there and play catch up and learn something that will get you hired.

          And being a vet doesn’t make you auto entitled to anything. “Service” is to serve, as in others and your country, not yourself. A sense of entitlement is a surefire way to take the intended selflessness aspect out of it.

        • Actually, the Vet (or at least the combat arms vet) took several YEARS out of his life to serve our country while you sat on your candyass, chasing girls, and “partying down”. So YES you do OWE him.

        • Don’t worry Bear and Brotherhood of Steel, not everyone out there forgets the debt we owe you vets and will do what we can to repay it in full.

        • I’m not going to dismiss your situation, only explain that this is a recurring problem for returning vets from wars since WWI.

          Following WWI, we had a flood of returning vets into the labor force, and a draw-down in economic demand. Result? The “depression” that everyone has forgotten, from 1921 to 1922. It was short, sharp and brief, mostly because the Fed was still a tyke in diapers and the political powers in DC were occupied with other issues. Because the banking cabal and the political hacks weren’t meddling with the economy, trying to “make things better,” the private sector got itself sorted out in a little over a year, and the “Roaring 20’s” followed.

          Following WWII, there was a severe recession from ’47 to early ’49. Things muddled along until the Korean War started, then the economy picked up as we got the WWII debt paid down and when Korea “ended” in ’53, Ike’s administration is remembered for a nice economy and trying to keep us out of foreign entanglements.

          Following Vietnam, there was the 70’s. Those of you too young to remember the 70’s for anything else other than dubious fashion (ie, bell bottoms) and music (disco) should look into the economics of the time. Economists continue to debate how the heck we got rising unemployment and inflation at the same time. Prior to the Carter administration, economics told us “this can’t happen.” Jimmy found a way to help it happen.

          Following the first Gulf War (1991), there was a mini-recession in the early 90’s, which Bill Clinton trumped up to be “the worst economy in 50 years.”

          It is sad to say that you’re not going through anything that prior generations of vets haven’t. But policymakers in DC play the same stupid game, over and over and over and over again. They think they’re terribly smart, but they keep making the same policy mistakes again and again.

        • @Dyspeptic Gunsmith

          You might possibly be the wisest, most consistently knowledgeable poster in the comments section of any website or blog I’ve read my whole life. Seriously.

        • Following Vietnam, there was the 70′s. Those of you too young to remember the 70′s for anything else other than dubious fashion (ie, bell bottoms) and music (disco) should look into the economics of the time. Economists continue to debate how the heck we got rising unemployment and inflation at the same time. Prior to the Carter administration, economics told us “this can’t happen.” Jimmy found a way to help it happen. It was called Stagflation. I graduated in 1975 and the gas crisis was still upon us. Economy was in the crapper before Jimmy Carter. I could not get a real job. I went to college. I really did not like Jimmy Carter. I campaigned for Ed Clark and the Libertarians in 1980..

        • Following WWII, there was a severe recession from ’47 to early ’49. Things muddled along until the Korean War started, then the economy picked up as we got the WWII debt paid down and when Korea “ended” in ’53, Dad came home in April 1946. Jobs and housing were hard to find. Luckily Mom still had her job at GE where she was hired in 1943 to make bomber gun turret motors. Mom was the bread winner for a long time after the war.

        • Just FYI all of us that went to college and didn’t have a trust fund (thank you Republicans for making a college education something only the wealthy can afford these days) wound up eating cheap food. You had Ramen noodles; we had perpetual salad bars at cheap restaurants for entertainment.

          But today being a LEO seems to pay much, much better than it used to. Back in my days (graduate from college in 1981) I never would have considered going into either the military or law enforcement (other than maybe at the Federal level) because the pay sucked and I earned much more as an accountant in industry working for a defense contractor.

          A few years ago I sold my house near the Intracoastal Waterway in Jacksonville, FL to a young guy that had just gotten a job with the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office. His dad had been my neighbor for years. That’s an excellent neighborhood near the beaches.

          Go back a few decades before that and all of the Sheriff’s deputies that I knew in Kentucky had to provide their own cars, and most of them had used cop cars they bought from other departments and lived in mobile homes in the woods.

          Cop pay today is better, and so is military pay. Everyone is much better equipped, too.

          So as Robert says, there is indeed a cost to safety.

          And, once again, conservatives bitch about not being able to balance a budget yet they want a militarized police in this nation and a huge military larger than the next 6 nations combined.

          Even the Republicans in Texas are realizing that the state doesn’t have the $12million a month that Perry wants to spend to send Guards to the border. Good publicity stunt for Perry, never mind that several business groups in the Rio Grand Valley (where most of the immigrant traffic is coming across) have publicly requested that Perry reconsider militarizing their neighborhoods and wasting money.

        • a couple of clarifications here for bear.

          all caps in comments is generally understood to represent yelling.
          We all have the same bad economy. Vets and the rest of us have a tough time in the job market .
          the article is attempting to point out that what is right and proper in combat is wrong in police work , because of the presumption of innocence and the presence of innocents. I recognize that your experience generaly leads to maturity and other good attributes. The reason for concern is that it is the more you simulate combat in police work, the harder it is for people experienced in combat to keep the distinction in mind and not be swept up in old habits.
          The “us vs them” attitude in in police work can lead to bad actors being protected from the consequences of wrongful acts and should be avoided.

          to those who think-non vets should not post about this: What were you fighting for over there?
          I had two uncle KIA in korea, my dad was in the 82nd for 6 years. my ancestors fought in the civil war and the revolutionate war, one died at the battle of shallow ford. You have no right to give any of us crap for expressing our opinion.

        • Job interviewer: “Skills/experience?”
          Applicant: “Killing people.”

          Can anybody in the country tell me what the hell the US is trying to accomplish by assaulting the Middle East? Is there a goal? A Mission Statement? ANYTHING?

          • @Rich Grise, wow…that’s news to me. Can you tell me exactly where in the Middle East we are assaulting anyone?

            • ” Can you tell me exactly where in the Middle East we are assaulting anyone?”

              Uh, Iraq? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Libya? Wherever those guys are coming back from with limbs blown off?

              • @Rich Grise, ah….I see now. It’s great for them to come over here and assault our people first, but we best not follow suit. Got it.

              • “I see now. It’s great for them to come over here and assault our people first, but we best not follow suit. Got it.”

                Uh, no, I doubt that’s what Rich was getting at. I would suspect that rather than engage in circular adolescent logic, he was opening the door to blame globalist greed, a tremendously flawed and corrupt US foreign policy, and the absolute gullibility of far too many voters to keep slurping up the media pablum about the division between Islam and Judeo-Christianism.

              • @BR549, ah….pablum eh? No difference at all between musloids and Christians. Riiiight……..ok. I see where you are coming from.

              • “ah….pablum eh? No difference at all between musloids and Christians. Riiiight……..ok. I see where you are coming from.”

                No, see, that’s the problem; you don’t, and it’s not because of some erroneous belief on your part that I support Islam.

              • Perhaps it’s because of an erroneous belief on your part that there is no difference between Islam and Christianity.

              • @Scot “Perhaps it’s because of an erroneous belief on your part that there is no difference between Islam and Christianity.

                More erroneous thought to cover your own misunderstanding of the topic at hand. There is indeed a vast difference between the two, even as they share a common Abrahamic ancestry.

                The problem is really that too many chowderheads over here would rather pin the conflict’s blame on someone who doesn’t think the same way they do rather than admit they had been duped all along by politicians over here in $4,000 suits. In the case of the Muslims, they have their own equivalent of ignorance and it’s AK47 toting jihadists being led by politically opportunistic clerics leading their frustrated and angry followers down a path of revenge and destruction ……… just as our politicians are doing. And from the sound of your last post, it appears that both sides’ propaganda strategies are working quite well.

              • @BR459

                I’m always amused by people who claim superior knowledge, and that anyone who disagrees with them is ‘duped’ by someone. Usually it turns out that their critical thinking skills have atrophied.

              • Dismiss it as you need to, but it doesn’t change anything. The fact remains that we have two civilizations sharing a common ancestry, yet each one vehemently entrenched in feeling it needs to protect itself from the other. Then, to make matters worse, as I’d stated before, each side has corrupt opportunistic politicians “feeding” off people’s ignorance in order to justify their own illusions of power dominance.

                Look, it’s like this; we’ve got two “brothers” (a continuation of the whole Abrahamic Ishmael-Isaac family soap opera), each one claiming to be worthy of the affections of the parent (in this case, God) and, like combative four year olds tugging on the same beat up toys, are so self-absorbed with their own existence that there is no tolerance for anything that challenges that relationship with what they each perceive to be THEIR “parent”.

                In real life terms, we’re talking the mentality of two self-centered adolescents, who have yet to understand the value of having a brother. They resent having to share toys and always see the other as an obstacle. Unfortunately for them, as long as they continue on with this childish behavior and completely miss the point of what it means to be able to mature within a family context, each of them will be a threat to the others existence.

                While there may be a strong measure of historical legitimacy in Abraham’s existence, it’s fairly safe to assume that, from the writings of other sages along the way, there was a lot of “embellishment” added in order to teach successive generations the ethical and moral lessons necessary to maintain a survivable culture; every culture does it. Without those lessons, BOTH of these “brothers” would still be stealing each each others goats and chopping each other’s heads off ….. or did I speak too soon?

                Any look at the Old Testament shows that it has been a long haul for both sides and is by no means complete. When each “brother” sees the other as also being a part of the same family, maybe THAT will be the time when “Dad” let’s us use the car keys, so to speak; after we’ve all grown up enough to take personal responsibility and stop blaming everyone else for our feelings. Until then, we all just get to practice with relationship partners to learn the same lessons in miniature, like playing with plastic dump trucks in the sand box. Until then, when “Dad” says do not covet, we’d be best to avoid doing so, whether we’re talking about Tonka Toys or oil and lithium.

              • @BR549

                You need to get a better grip on the word ‘civilization.’

                You also need to get a better grip on reality. Your analysis is so far off track it’s amazing.

                Maybe you need a looser tin-foil hat.

              • You haven’t got the faintest clue about what I was referring to, yet in some feeble attempt to conserve your bravado, all the rest of us get to read is your weak-ass referrals to tin-foil hats and my somehow needing to prove your point. The only point here is the one on the top of your head.

                Perhaps if you actually read my post, you might have been able to engage in some form of meaningful dialogue, but since neither of those happened, we can only assume that you’re only here to flick boogers and play with yourself while ridiculing any topic you have no comprehension of. Until such time that you can actually dialogue any legitimate opinions or feelings, might I suggest taking the time to sweep up the accumulation of that orange Cheetos powder that has become matted down in the fabric of your recliner with stale beer.

              • “Perhaps it’s because of an erroneous belief on your part that there is no difference between Islam and Christianity.”

                Well, they are both based on an Infinite Tyrant in the Sky, who is the One True God, who thinks he owns everything.

              • @Rich Grise, one God tells His followers to love one another and treat each other as they themselves would want to be treated. The other admonishes its adherents to kill infidels/non-believers. Kind of a small difference, no?

              • The Talmud (and from that, the Bible) and the Quran all stem from the OT, which was filled with many accounts of the slaughter of pagan tribes. The Amalekites come to mind. Their unfortunate crime was that they happened to be living on the land that the followers of Abraham (an immigrant into the area).

                It would be like some Mexican family moving across the border, snagging a few too many peyote buttons along the way, setting up camp in Toad Snot Arkansas, and getting some fool notion that just because he liked the area, he should stay. The kids grow up to believe that the area is theirs and locals become suspicious when the family starts starts getting a bit too possessive of lands that never belonged to them in the first place.

                After a while, the family has embellished any campfire history lessons to justify the slaughter of other local families who merely attempted to preserve their own family heritage.

                All this is is SSDD. The Spanish conquests, Britain’s hegemonic pursuit of resources, and the US’s despicable treatment of the Native Americans; all writing history according to the victors; completely twisting the truth of what happened to cover up their own justification for the killing of others to satiate their greed.

              • “And, of course, you are one of the few who know the truth, eh?”

                I never said that, but if it makes you feel better to dismiss my attempts to dialogue on the matter, than you go right ahead with that. Seems to be working well for ya!

              • You don’t have to expressly say it. Your posts drip with contempt for anyone who doesn’t see the world as you do.

                And you aren’t actually attempting to dialog. You assert non-provable things as if they were facts, yet you do not provide any support for them.

              • “You don’t have to expressly say it. Your posts drip with contempt for anyone who doesn’t see the world as you do. …….. And you aren’t actually attempting to dialog. You assert non-provable things as if they were facts, yet you do not provide any support for them.”

                Non-provable? Do you mean like how the Quran is being vilified by forces in this country in order to pursue a political agenda? Here is but one Muslim’s account of Islam:
                http://www.standard-freeholder.com/2014/03/21/vakily-mercy-compassion-are-missing-links

                I bring this issue up (again) because Islam is being attacked by corruption no differently than Christianity and the US’s ideology of democracy. The enemies are not the people of the West …… nor the people of the East, but those who would seek to make fortunes off the misery of others ……. on BOTH sides. Of course, there will always be a plentiful supply of hot-headed neanderthals who will take as much of the official media pablum as it can dish out.

                BTW, I ran across this quote here that I thought was appropriate after having read your distortions on the discussion at hand:
                “I’m always amused by people who claim superior knowledge, and that anyone who disagrees with them is ‘duped’ by someone. Usually it turns out that their critical thinking skills have atrophied.” Perhaps you might try looking in the mirror from time to time.

              • “the Quran is being vilified by forces in this country in order to pursue a political agenda?”

                Perhaps you could actually point to the “forces” (names and links to specific quotes) that are vilifying the Qur’an. I know that there are no-name people who are passing around fake Qur’an quotes, both good and bad, but I’m not aware of anyone of any significance who is vilifying the Qur’an.

                The issue isn’t Islam in general (although polls of Muslims around the world aren’t encouraging), but Islamism.

                That one Muslim says that mercy and compassion are (or should be) the premier characteristics of Islam is ahistorical. Nor does it appear to have much acceptance in the Islamic world today. I’m sure that the Christians in Mosul have a different view. Or tens of thousands of other Muslims who have been killed by ISIS and others in Syria and Iraq.

                I know Muslims who would agree with the person who wrote that article, that “true” Islam is compassionate and merciful (although you should note that even the article’s author appears to believe that non-Muslims have/should have limited rights in an Islamic state). However, none of them have any power in the Muslim world.

                It is true that there are portions of the Qur’an that can be seen as advocating peace, those, from what I understand, have tended to be those portions written early in the Prophet’s career, before he was able to conquer Mecca and Medina with the sword. The later portions of the Qur’an are less filled with compassion and mercy. And some of the Hadith seem to have dropped it altogether.

                ” official media pablum ”

                The media in the US, and the official US government line, is that Islam is a religion of peace, and that it has been hijacked by extremists. As I noted above, the various polls of Muslims around the world aren’t encouraging.

                You’re the one that is constantly claiming that others are duped.

              • Scot,
                Thanks for the civil reply. I understand your take on the discussion quite well. I actually agree with most of it. It isn’t that I don’t trust Islam; what I don’t trust is the clerics political manipulations of the religion. From that standpoint, look how far Bush43 got with all the blind religious right. Those lemmings following him right into the toilet. (Of course, we now have the liberal lemmings following the Clintons (and now, Obama) down the toilet in the next stall. SSDD

                Your history of Islam seems pretty much on target, although it seems interesting that Islam started out as a religion of peace and then became more susceptible to being corrupted as time went on. Perhaps the the Islamic sages had a different spiritual curriculum in mind.

                Whether we are talking Islam or Judeo-Christianity, here’s what I think has taken place; just my view, mind you. I think that both camps probably weren’t that far off in their ideologies to begin with and then, not unlike the whole Protestant-Catholicism rift, differences evolved toward what we are seeing today. I mean even the Baptists, Lutherans and Methodists can’t agree, except to be civil with each other.

                But somewhere, buried deep in the bowels of the OT, was, I believe, this two part strategy. This is what I think happened. For the lesser spiritually evolved in each group was written their cultural history; the gist of what had once been the orally conveyed moral and ethical lessons around the campfire. Those “fireside chats” became an anchor around which the sages could always fall back on to justify their later writings. Whether this was actually a plan or not is anyone’s guess. This would seem to have been even more reinforced with the advent of a “written tradition”.

                In there was the bloodshed I mentioned and, if nothing else, these lesser evolved minds would get caught up in believing that these works were reflective of their hatred and feelings for all those other tribes which had, at some point, done them wrong. So, as a last resort, at least those member who were “a bit slow”, would at least agree that “The Book”, as the Muslims refer to the OT, was the one place where the rules were written down.

                Now we get to the other part; that part where the compassion and forgiveness comes in. That’s where, during the course of an individual’s acceptance of his own emotional responsibility, he realizes that there really is no one to blame except himself for having previously contributed to the ignorance. This is where that guy was at in the link I sent you. I think this is an important distinction to make because it then allows us to not blame ALL muslims; only those who “don’t get it”. But in similar fashion, we have to ask ourselves how many Christians over here are all for bombing the Middle East into one big parking lot and still believing they understand compassion and forgiveness.

                In the end, there really are people on BOTH sides of this divide, who really don’t see the divide at all. They are like the parents at a multiple family BBQ, who are busy laughing and chatting away while the kids occasionally get into a wrestling match over who is going to get to use the swing. As long as no one is getting too rough, the parents just let the kids work it out, but the point is that, during the conflict, the kids involved are locking horns in what appears to them to be a life or death struggle for dominance.

                Whether we are talking about Christianity or Islam, neither one is a religion of peace unless the followers are actually understanding what peace is.

                My two cents.

              • @BR549

                I specifically asked you to support, with specific names and links, your claim that “the Quran is being vilified by forces in this country in order to pursue a political agenda.”

                From the lack of any names or links in your reply, can I safely presume that you are withdrawing the assertion? If not, please provide the requested names and links.

                It appears that you are inviting me to expand the discussion away from it’s main topic by attempting to bring in the previous administration. I decline to take the bait, sorry.

                “Your history of Islam seems pretty much on target, although it seems interesting that Islam started out as a religion of peace and then became more susceptible to being corrupted as time went on. Perhaps the the Islamic sages had a different spiritual curriculum in mind.”

                It would appear that you’re not familiar with the history of Islam. The ‘change’ took place **during the lifetime of their prophet**. It wasn’t a corruption of the prophet’s message by later sages, it was his message, given to him directly by Allah. The many verses in the Qur’an that direct Muslims to spread Islam by the sword, killing all pagans, and treating the ‘people of the book’ as second class citizens with limited rights, have always been in the Qur’an.

                Muhammad’s dislike of the Jews developed after the Jews of his day refused to accept him as the prophet/messiah.

                There is no such thing as a ‘lesser evolved mind.’

                I’m not aware of any serious person who wants to ‘blame all Muslims’ for anything. Unless you want to consider it blaming them to believe that the Ummah has a religious responsibility to rein in their extremists. Which it does not do, there isn’t even really a consensus that they are extremists.

                While it is an article of religious faith that Islam should conquer the world by the sword, it is NOT an article of Christian faith that Christianity should do so. So your attempt to make bombing the middle east into a parking lot a Christian tenet fails (and makes me wonder why you have such an animus against Christians).

                Let me point out that the Romans, who were not Jews, Christians, nor Muslims, totally destroyed Carthage, not because they believed it to be a religious duty, but because they believed (after multiple wars) that it was necessary for their own survival (Hannibal came close to being able to take out Rome). It is largely because of Christianity that that option has, for the most part, been removed from our set of responses.

                The idea that there is no divide is foolish. Your picnic analogy also fails. You keep acting as if international relations, relations between different cultures/civilizations/etc. are just like relations among people in a civil society. Yet “civil society” requires there to be society of which everyone involved is a citizen. (And a properly socialized citizen.) Such a global society does not exist, except in the imaginations (fever dreams) of some people.

              • @Scot, it is easy to see you are a true student of history and a complete breath of fresh air here.

              • Please excuse me. I thought we might be able to have a civil dialogue. I was wrong. All you seem to want to do is justify your own carefully arranged beliefs on the issue(s) and that’s your choice.

                As far as me providing PROOF about forces here vilifying Islam, you’d have to be an idiot not to understand what is going on with the propaganda on BOTH sides.

                Here, we seemed to have gotten off on the wrong foot, I attempt to lay down a few olive branches, and you do what it appears you do best and feel the need to somehow “win” this discussion. Yo, dude, there are no winners here; not as long as everyone keeps avoiding the discussion about greed, corruption and egos. In the meantime, all I had intended to do was discuss the fact that both pathways leading from Abrahamism, if you will, had much larger lessons built into them, yet as long as people remain hopelessly focused on revenge and hatred, they’ll continue to be sent back a grade. And please don’t give me that spiel about Christianity being the only path. It is one of many respectable paths ……… for those who choose to actually follow them. But therein lies the problem. A lot of the followers (it doesn’t make any difference which side) just use religion to hide their hatred behind.

                I’m done here, have a nice day.

              • Generally a civil dialogue includes one supporting one’s own statements when asked to do so.

                Merely repeating, over and over, that something is happening isn’t evidence that it is. Nor is it dialogue of any type. For that matter, if it is as clear as you seem to believe it to be, then it should be child’s play for you to trot out the proof.

                ‘Forces’ is a meaningless term in this context.

                Your original claim was that ‘forces’ were vilifying the Qur’an, not Islam. Please keep your own assertions straight.

                That you don’t appreciate it when I correctly pointed out some of the history of Islam is interesting, but doesn’t change the facts of what happened back in the day.

              • There will always be plenty of people like yourself who need proof that it’s going to rain before taking an umbrella with them. I in no way compare myself to Nikola Tesla, but using him as an example, I can imagine what those around him must have said about him being some fringe level fruitcake for daring to think outside the box. You, son, are still in that box.

                It wouldn’t matter if I did come up with any corroborating data because, in the end, you just want to argue as opposed to sharing possibly contrarian viewpoints. Just as with the Arab/Israeli conflict, depending on whose data you massage, one could make a case to support either side.

                You claim to have read the Quran and you seem to be somewhat familiar with its history, but I’ll tell you what you’re problem is; you try to analyze the Quran through a western mind. We have slopeheads on this side of the pond who see everything and everyone about Islam as being related to Satan and no matter how much one tries to convince them that a large number of Muslims are peaceful and apolitical, they will always see the other as “other”. And the sad part about it is that that same level of ignorance is exhibited over there as the clerics take their own political advantage of our failure in domestic policy.

                We can go over this again and again, but in the end, it makes no difference what I think; nor vice versa. If you still require “proof” of what I’m referring to, maybe someday you’ll find it because I can only lead a horse to water. Islam isn’t the answer, nor is Christianity; they are merely vehicles for their respective populations, like Ford and Chevy, to get from Point A to Point B.

                As one respected person once said, to know Christ is to also know Buddha, Mohammed, Gandhi, and I guess people just have to come to grips with that on their own or ignore it altogether.

              • @BR549, “As one respected person once said, to know Christ is to also know Buddha, Mohammed, Gandhi, and I guess people just have to come to grips with that on their own or ignore it altogether.”

                If you are implying that Buddha, Mohammed the pedophile, and Gandhi are equivalent to the Son of God, you are out of your mind. I hope I’m just reading that wrong.

              • “If you are implying that Buddha, Mohammed the pedophile, and Gandhi are equivalent to the Son of God, you are out of your mind. I hope I’m just reading that wrong.”

                Wrong? You just miss the point, entirely, which from the tenor of your post, doesn’t surprise me. Also, all through medieval times, which was much later than the time of Mohammed, what you are conveniently referring to as pedophilia was common practice of early marriage contract throughout both Europe and the Arab region. If your weren’t so busy trying to justify your hatred, you might learn something about other cultures.

              • @BR549, if you weren’t so busy being a total f-stick, you would also know that pedophilia is a current and common and ACCEPTED practice by musloids through musloidistan. Hint: pull head out of azz and take a look around after wiping the fecal matter from your eyes.

              • Oh, BTW, Ralph said you were ripe to spend some more “quality time” in your bathroom.

                G’night, Mac.

              • I again point out that if it is as clear as you claim it to be that there are “forces” vilifying the Qur’an, it would be child’s play for you to provide evidence.

                Claiming that I would just reject your evidence out of hand, BEFORE providing any evidence isn’t a good dialogue technique. But it is something that those who really have no support for their claims do.

                I leave it to the others who read here to decide if your protestations ring hollow or not.

                Are you a charter member of ‘Strawmen R Us’? You present enough of them, along with poor analogies. (The horse to water analogy is particularly poor, as you have yet to actually present anything objective to support your views. You’ll never get a horse to drink if you only take him to a mirage.)

                You present another opinion as if it were fact at the end of your post. Do you not know the difference?

              • No Scot, some of what I have said has indeed been based on fact, while some of the material has also been controversial for over a millennia. It doesn’t make any difference because that isn’t what I was referring to …. and more to the point, I don’t owe you anything. I was merely suggesting some alternative viewpoints, but you seem to have this burning desire to dismiss my talking points by demanding I give you PROOF. Proof of what; … that Jesus existed? …. or that the Earth orbits around the Sun?

              • This latest post of yours has given me a big smile. Basically it reinforces what I’ve said earlier.

                You evidently can’t even keep your own posts straight.

                You asserted that there are “forces” that are vilifying the Qur’an. It wasn’t a suggestion of an alternative viewpoint, it was an assertion of fact. As a fact, you should be able to back it up. It’s not a question of owning anyone (other than yourself) anything, it’s a question of being able to support what you write.

                Nice attempt to deflect, but all I’m asking for is that you back up your earlier assertions.

                It appears that you want to have your “talking points” accepted as if they were true without having to back them up. How often does that work for you?

              • For some reason, you seem to be incredibly thick-headed. Not sure why that is; genetics, maybe; fear? That’s your problem.

                You like to spend your time parsing my posts for your own selective interpretation rather than address my original points. Then you want proof. If you want proof, that’s like needing a guaranty, so that the paradigm you’d been incorrectly operating under all these years won’t come back and bite you in the ass when you learn to perceive things in a different light; so be it. As for the “forces” vilifying the Quran, Islam, whatever; There are two kinds of people relative to these “forces”. The first is a group who feed on lesser informed people’s ignorance; the second is the body of lemmings that so blindly accept the pablum that is pushed in front of them.

                I know, I know, YOU think I’m being naive. Meanwhile, I’m here thinking that you can’t even address the larger issues because you like to wrap yourself up in stupid irrelevant minutia that bears little resemblance to the discussion at hand. I mean, have you even looked into the whole Mohammed “pedophile” accusation …….. at all? Have you? No, you’re too busy making with the cute remarks and trying to get brownie points by being the dutiful bigoted bobble-headed islamophobe.

                For the same reason that it was culturally acceptable for Abraham to bed Sarah’s maidservant Hagar while Sarah was perceived to be barren, it was also later acceptable, BACK THEN and still in practice up until only a couple hundred years ago, to make marriage arrangements when females had reached fertility. Even the Muslims are having to feel embarrassed trying to cover up this detail, because they find themselves having to deal with it within the context of a modern western morality base. They shouldn’t have to. If Abraham were alive today, he’d have been accused of abandoning his eldest child. He takes no responsibility for his previous actions in creating a potential heir (Ishmael) through then acceptable cultural practices and yet wants the latitude to change his mind, to set things straight with God, once that route becomes convenient. And his way to do that is to just abandon Hagar and Ishmael.

                Thus, while people are so busy arguing over which son gets the birthright, they completely miss the big picture, altogether. If you were ready to understand it, you would.

                In case you haven’t figured it out yet, the allegoric aspect of Abraham was in its being able to illustrate to a campfire full of ignorant goat herders the soap opera of multiple human faults. One of these was that Ismael represented man’s past, while Isaac represented what man had the potential to become. But according to your ditsy interpretation, it’s OK for man to simply abandon any part of his past he doesn’t like to deal with. How convenient. The major lesson we learn with that whole Abraham thing is that without knowing where we came from, like using a compass, we have no idea where we are headed. And these aren’t even MY interpretations. They’re just other people’s leftovers from countless inquiries on the issue. So, if PROOF is what you seek; good luck with that one, because you’ll never find it. You’ll be chasing that unicorn for a good long time. Until then, what you need to do is learn how to use a freakin’ search engine for material outside of what normally makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

                Have a nice day.

              • Wow, another lengthy post, that is basically content free. And you called me names, I am so hurt and crushed.

                Once again, you made a claim, I asked you to support your claim. You didn’t. Evidently you can’t.

                Instead you continue to rant about some weird interpretation of Abraham, which is totally irrelevant to the claim I asked you to support.

                And you say that these weird interpretations of Abraham aren’t “your” interpretations, yet don’t provide an information about the actual sources.

                Once again, you’re making assertions that you claim are easily supportable, yet rather than support them yourself, you evidently want ME to “use a freakin’ search engine” to prove YOUR assertions.

                It is interesting, but not surprising or unusual, that it evidently doesn’t bother you at all that you can’t support your own assertions. You have written about “discussion” and “dialogue” but neither are comprised of one person making claims and then saying that the other person is obligated to prove those claims or the other person is a dunce.

              • It only goes to show that you want me to piece together some form of story for you about how all the little pieces fit together and then reference everything I said so that you can justify spending any time having to later think about any of it.

                Your type shows up on every web site, although thank God I don’t have to be the one showing these people the door. They demand proof for everything they don’t fathom and even after they are presented with references, it turns out that they never read any of the material and just wanted to pull someone’s chain.

                That’s where you come in, because you’re looking for the free lunch program. Sorry, the kitchen is closed. When you get hungry enough, out of necessity, you’ll figure out a different way to get the information you’re asking for …….. who knows, maybe even by actually LOOKING IT UP! I literally have probably 2,000 links that venture into this area and sometimes the topic at hand is about something else entirely. So, if I happened to give you those links, I can surmise already that you’d scan a few pages, get impatient, and then criticize me for not giving you the information, when at least a part of it was there all along.

                If you’re interested in this at all, you can make it happen. You don’t need me. Then you might hit me up some time in the future and say, “Hey, …….”, but I don’t do free lunches.

              • I think that you would have been better off if you had stuck to your earlier statement that you were done.

                As it is, you have once again written a lengthy post, with basically no content, just a lot of invalid ad hominem.

                And you continue to be unable to back up an earlier claim. Generally it makes sense to ask for proof of things that should be provable.

                You have, repeatedly, asserted that your views/claims are easily provable, that the evidence supporting them is just everywhere. Yet, you continue to be unable to present this evidence, wanting me to support your claims.

                Here you’re pretending that I’m asking for ‘information,’ when what I’m asking for is for you to support your own assertions. You’ve even set up *another* strawman, claiming that I wouldn’t read what you present. Problem with that is that I did read the only link you’ve so far provided, a link that talked about the compassion and mercy inherent in Islam. After reading it I pointed out that, while I’m sure the author of the article linked believes what he wrote, a cursory examination of what is happening in the world today would lead one to an opposite conclusion. The Islamic State has killed Christians, forced them to convert, etc.; they’ve also been engaging in genocide against the Azidis. Both Sunni and Shia have been engaged in killing each other. The Baha’i have been persecuted by Muslims. And so on. That one, or even 10,000 Muslims believe that the center of Islam is compassion and mercy doesn’t change the facts on the ground. Or the history of Islam.

                I expect your next post will be full of additional attempts at ad hominem, and void of any support for your claim (the claim I initially asked you to support) that there are “forces” that are vilifying the Qur’an.

                Oh, that one can find hundreds or even thousands of web sites based on a particular idea doesn’t make the idea true. It’s another example of the argumentum ad populum (an appeal to numbers).

              • Your fifth paragraph pretty much says it all; only part of which had any validity, and you continue to miss my point, which despite your intellectual show of force, all you’ve continued to show me is that you’re still a free lunch candidate.

                See, the breakdown we have is that I still believe that there are a large number of Muslims who love western culture but don’t want to return to the Middle Ages. They want a foot in both worlds and be able to practice their religion and hope to hell that they don’t get politically pressured in the process to having to support some errant cleric’s agenda. But then clowns like you come along and remind these people every day why the path for freedom and democracy is such a facade. Like many conservative voters over here who tried to distance themselves from that idiot Bush family, they had no place to go except out in the cold. Same thing with these people. They’d probably feel much more comfortable with Islam-lite, but with your level of intolerance, you only invite more of what you complain about.

                Oh, and you forgot the Sufis.

              • Again a meaningless post, which fails to respond on point.

                If you can’t support your earlier statement, why do you keep posting?

                And why do you continue to set up strawmen?

                There may well be a “large number” of Muslims who love western culture, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t an equally “large number” of Muslims who want to destroy western culture. Since I’ve never claimed that there are not many Muslims who love western culture your point is irrelevant.

                Let’s try again. Please provide support for your earlier statement that there are “forces” that are vilifying the Qur’an. You claim the evidence is everywhere, so it should be easy for you to provide it.

              • “Please provide support for your earlier statement that there are “forces” that are vilifying the Qur’an. You claim the evidence is everywhere, so it should be easy for you to provide it.”

                You’re right, it is everywhere, but as I said before, THE KITCHEN IS CLOSED. No more free lunches for you. If you were paying any attention AT ALL to the spectrum of news sources, you wouldn’t still be waiting to serve up this dish on a platter for you. Since you are apparently only following some “See Dick Run” version of cherry picked news sources, it isn’t my job to change your paradigm. If you want the info, it’s everywhere; you just have to get off your ass and start questioning what you’ve been relying on for news.

              • 🙂

                In other words you can’t provide support for your own assertions.

                If you don’t consider it your job to change someone’s “paradigm” (you must have an advanced degree in something) what on earth are you making unsupportable assertions for? Don’t you intend with your posts to change “paradigms”?

                You’d be more successful at changing the “paradigms” of those that read here if you were to actually support some of the bowb that you post.

              • While you try to defend your viewpoints from your wobbly podium, your buddy there, El Mac, has shown his intellectual spots with his use of the term, “Musloids”. The two of you remind me of students in geometry and trig class who justified not doing their homework because they couldn’t possibly imagine ever having to use such nonsense in the real world. From the standpoint of an adolescent, I suppose that would make sense not wasting one’s energy is such fashion.

                Meanwhile, the other students were dutifully doing the assignments, as required, trusting that the reasoning would later follow. Now, assuming that I was a teacher (I’m not, any longer), why would I waste my time with students who clearly had no desire to see the world beyond bubble-gum and comic books?

                Islam is only becoming as strong as it is because the West is in moral failure. This, not surprisingly, is a similar reasoning that the West uses to vilify Islam, with the politicians and leaders on BOTH sides pointing the fingers of blame at each other over moral irresponsibility. It’s the same description that Margaret Mead gave when discussing the motives of the Borneo cannibals justifying eating the members of neighboring tribes.

                Anthropologist author Robert Ardrey once stated that “a society is defined as a group of individuals competing for conventional prizes through conventional means.” Clearly, when we find that we no longer share anything in common with another group, it becomes too easy to vilify them and justify our plunder of their resources. Such was the plight of the Native American. And this is nothing different. We’ve been after Middle East oil ever since it was speculated that the reverses were out there as far back as the late 1800s. By 1911, the Brits were in and the stage was set for the near total failure in British diplomacy, when it greed to convey functional control of all the lands out to the Mediterranean Sea to the Arabs, and it wasn’t until several years later, when Britain made the Balfour agreement, that it totally ignored its previous agreement in exchange, of course, for zionists Walter Rothshcild and chemist (and producer of large amounts of acetone for Cordite explosives) Chaim Weizmann pushing the “Promised Land” mumbo jumbo.

                The problem, here, is that both Islam and Judeo-Christians are “people of The Book”, and both are of semitic origin, as descendants of Noah’s son, Shem. Thus, what we see today is each side pretending the other doesn’t exist, with the Jews, in particular, co-opting the term anti-semitism to mean anti-Jewish, when in fact, it means anti-Arab, as well.

                This was why I had continually used the analogy of two immature adolescents continually wishing that their sibling would just drop off the face of the planet and allow themself to be the only child left standing, waiting for the affections of the parent; in this case, God. And every time anyone from from the outside has anything to do with anyone from inside that house, they always have to deal with the family dysfunction. Whether it be alcohol, drugs, emotional or physical abuse, infidelity, who knows what; that addiction to conflict permeates every relationship in the house.

                I know, I know, you’re still looking for PROOF, so that you don’t have to waste your time looking into avenues that upset your worldview. All I can say is that, first, you need to learn trig before calculus will make any sense, and right now, you seem to still be struggling with your times tables.

              • You continue to amuse.

                I’m not responsible for anyone else’s posts or opinions, nor are they responsible for mine.

                That you find it necessary to once again make a feeble attempt at an ad hominem attack reinforces the idea that you really can’t support your own ideas. One generally engages in informal logical fallacies because they have no real argument on their side.

                As it sits, you initially made an assertion, which you’ve been unable to support. Additionally, you’ve made what appear to be several odd historical comments and claims, which I have addressed factually. So far you have failed to even address any of my factual arguments about the history of Islam, or about the present day facts about Islamism, much less refute any of them.

                Making snide comments does not count as refutation.

                You continue to make somewhat long posts, as if to deflect from the original issue, which was your failure to support your claim that “forces” are vilifying the Qur’an.

                The historical inaccuracies in this last post of yours, both with respect to American Indians, as well as to the Middle East, put paid to your pretensions of knowledge.

                “both Islam and Judeo-Christians are “people of The Book”, and both are of semitic origin,”

                There is no such thing as a “Judeo-Christian” people (one can speak of a “Judeo-Christian culture” but not a people). Nor is it a religion that one could properly compare to Islam. Nor is it proper to say that Muslims or Christians are “of semitic origin.” There are Muslims and Christians of all ethnicities and cultures. The grammatical comparison of Islam with “Judeo-Christian” and claiming that Muslims and Christians are of semitic origin also argue against your pretensions.

                Your supposed theological arguments are specious at best.

                I’m not the one that is so entombed in a world view that I can’t actually present facts to back up my points.

                Once again I expect that your next post will not be on point, and that you will still fail to present evidence to back up your own assertions.

              • Your last post had me shaking my head. How could someone pretending to be that well educated not understand rudimentary basics in cultural development, religion, or for that matter, virtually anything we have been “discussing”, and I use that term loosely?

                You keep accusing me of avoiding giving you some magical PROOF about the material I present. There is no proof of anything. I can already discern from your lofty posts that even if I discovered the Holy Grail or a cure for cancer, you’d be in the back of the class throwing spit balls, still demanding for proof. I feel sorry for you. You are looking for guaranties so you won’t waste your time looking into some new subject area; too worried, no doubt, about having to expend any effort as you are forced to alter your pathetic world view, and then, like a broken record, continue to fixate on my statement about “forces vilifying the Quran”.

                That box must be getting a bit cramped about now; …….you know, the same one you’ve been living in all this time.

                By the way, thank you for proving my point.

              • Thank you for confirming my expectations. And for continuing to fail to address or refute any point I make.

                Proof is not magical.

                You asserted that there are “forces” that are vilifying the Qur’an. You evidently can’t point to any of those forces. Not asking for a cure for cancer or the Holy Grail, just for you to support your assertion.

                If you can’t manage to support something that simple (after all you have said that evidence to support your assertion is everywhere), why should anyone pay any attention to your attempts at deflection?

                So, I still predict that you won’t respond on point, won’t specifically address any of the points I’ve made in earlier posts, and won’t provide any support for your assertion.

              • “So, I still predict that you won’t respond on point, won’t specifically address any of the points I’ve made in earlier posts, and won’t provide any support for your assertion.”

                And from that statement being true, I suppose you now consider yourself psychic …….

                Again, for some reason you seem either incapable of seeing the larger picture or too lazy to use a search engine, but all your handicaps aside, and as much as you seem to still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, there are evil people on both sides of this political divide, who have no problem helping to convince gullible followers within in each of their own camps to either strap on explosive vests or sit back in their recliners and vote for someone who supports bombing innocent civilians. We weren’t the first and will no doubt be the last.

                Obama is merely a political puppet, a smooth talking (suave to many) narcissist with no country, no family (that matters), and no real past. He was “allowed” to get into the White House for precisely those reasons. He is rubbing the faces of our conservative population into the dung heap of jihadist hatred and he doesn’t mind using the Quran to help divide this country.

                Then, we have the Alinsky group of Constitution haters of which Hillary is just one. Her narcissist womanizing hubbie is right in there with her; willing to sacrifice everything this country once stood for, if for one more chance to be in the political spotlight.

                But not to sound overly right wing, the Bush family is right in there as well concerning the deceptions necessary to pull off NAFTA and this whole globalist takeover. Bush41 was a well oiled salesman, but he couldn’t quite squeeze NAFTA through on his watch, and isn’t it amazing how, rather than refuse to sign NAFTA for ideological reasons, Clinton was so quick to make it happen.

                The spread of this European, Anglo-Saxon dominated globalism model is a threat to the Arab world, even as the Saudis have been more than willing to cave in through their membership in the Carlisle Group. So, they aren’t immune to their own people sabotaging their own culture, either.

                The Military Industrial Complex, and this goes without saying, NEEDS a conflict SOMEWHERE in the world in order to thrive …… and look where we are now? The globalists are all busy posturing themselves for their newly acquired seats at the dinner table while the civilians in the trenches have all been led to believe that this is a war on ideologies. It isn’t. The only things challenging a peaceful coexistence are the power elites playing chess with innocent populations, by intentionally using propaganda to mislead the people about what is happening and who is behind it. If the vast majority of people understood the true nature of the conflict, there would be no jihadists or ignorant Billy-Bobs; there’d be a raft of clerics hanging from nooses in Mecca as well as corrupt politicians hanging in front of the Capitol Building.

                War is what happens when diplomacy fails, and look at the self-serving bozos we’ve been offering to go negotiate ……. losers, all. They couldn’t negotiate for a ham sandwich. And behind them, again, are a darker set of forces that have been hiding within Bilderberg. There’s the Rockfeller’s Frankenstein creation, the Trilateral Commission, and the half century older Council on Foreign Relations; ALL of them in the business of keeping wealth in the hands of the wealthy ……. at any expense.

                Now, if you’re asking me to name dates and places, and provide specific quotes by these very same people, I’m sorry, you’re just going to have to do some legwork yourself. This information is all out there and you do have to sift through it all in order to find an answer that works for you. You won’t find any truth in any one place, although I tend to revere former Asst Treasury Sec Dr. Paul Craig Roberts’ articles a lot. Former HUD commissioner Catherine Austin-Fitts has been a wealth of information.

                What you have to do is start connecting some dots and stop waiting for other people to do it for you. I haven’t even gotten into the down and dirty here, because there’s so much of it, and quite frankly, what typically happens is that when you try to explain this stuff to the average boob, they just shut down because there’s just too much information that contradicts their former paradigm and they are forced to wrestle with how they had managed to live so long and not understand what was going on right underneath them.

                So, it’s time to dust the Dorito chips off your lap there Scotty. It’s a big world out there.

              • Wow, many of the tinfoil conspiracy ideas in the world seems to find a comfortable home in your head.

                It was nice of you to admit right up front that your rambling, meaningless post was neither on point, nor relevant.

                Do you some how think that posting line after line of foolishness makes that foolishness less foolish?

                You haven’t “even gotten in to the down and dirty” because if you were to do so outside of your little echo chamber, where people actually think about issues; no one pays any attention. Reality contradicts your paradigm. You will, of course, continue to believe that logic and reason are optional, which is rather sad.

                I again note that you are incapable of presenting any evidence that your statement that there are “forces” vilifying the Qur’an is true.

              • At this point, it is quite obvious that if I actually went to the trouble to give you a list of peer reviewed articles, you’d still find a way to avoid dealing with the issues. And while you’re STILL wondering WHY I have been resilient to your demands, it’s exactly because of your attitude ……. which, quite honestly, was apparent from the start.

                I noticed that you paid no attention to PCR. Hmm. That tells me a lot; especially that when confronted with any path to the truth, you’d rather stay in your warm little cubicle.

                It’s a shame, all that education and you still can’t see the forest.

                Sleep tight.

              • As you’re particularly incapable of responding on point to a simple little request that you provide support for a statement you made, the idea that I’m going to play your deflection game is ludicrous.

                “PCR”? Does that explain who is vilifying the Qur’an?

                It was your assertion, you support it. It’s not my job to look for support for your assertions.

              • No, Scot, PCR (Paul Craig Roberts) was just one of perhaps a hundred some odd whistleblowers who signed up to work in government with good intentions, but who have become totally disgusted with how our government has been taken over. PCR is only one, mind, and you are so stuck in your fantasyland that you couldn’t even brave it to step out in the sunshine for one minute to possibly challenge yourself.

                You are also a bit too free in tossing the tin foil hat and conspiracy theory monikers around, because what people are quickly learning is that there is far more truth to the theories than not; at least enough for intelligent people to start asking some very serious questions. You, on the other hand, would rather live in a box.

                My statement about the Quran being vilified was merely the politically flip side of what Muslim leaders are encouraging with respect to attitudes towards Christians. All phony attempts by Obama to use the Quran to divide the people in this country aside, I still stand with my comment that people who understand the Quran and don’t cherry pick sections of it to bolster some political argument, see it as a religion of peace. The fact that, as political tensions challenge the feeling of security of individuals in both religious camps, people become more susceptible to following their agenda-driven leaders’ control usurping efforts.

                Good day Scot.

              • @BR549, the koran and musloidism ain’t anywhere close to being a religion of peace. Piece of crap perhaps.

              • Mac, that’s what happens when people cherry pick what they need to reinforce their own argument.

                The one good thing that happened when I lived overseas for a while was that I realized that other people can reach the same logical place by taking a different path of reasoning. The Quran turned out to be exactly that, although I didn’t live in the Middle East, and I think that is what might be causing so much confusion among people who don’t understand it. Taken in that context, though, it explains perfectly why so many Muslims around the world are NOT picking up AK47s ……. and why those who do seem to have the same loose screws that many mal-adjusted Christian warhawks do. I realize, of course, that there have been a number of authors who have bailed on Islam, but I believe that they were bailing on the political baggage that too often accompanies that religion. That I won’t deny and it mandates that we can’t ignore the problem.

                I’m not going to engage in the same idiotic nonsense that I had to deal with in Scot’s total state of denial, but I will say this; I was once in your two guys’ shoes and felt the same way about Islam. That was until I later came to understand the darker, globalist-driven forces that are still using the ignorant to foment resentment against anyone who thinks differently. Once I understood that, it wasn’t Islam that was the problem, it was evil people, all too similar to the same evil people we have over here, only the ones over here don’t share the cultural differences as the ones we are quick to vilify.

              • @BR549, our experiences are world’s apart. I stood in the rubble of 9/11 in NYC less than a week after it happened. I was in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I would not walk across the street to piss on a musloid if he were burning to death. I’ve seen their “culture” up close and personal. I’ve seen their pedophilia. I’ve seen what they do to their women. And I’ve seen what they do to us.

                You like ’em. Fine by me. But like the line from JW, “don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining”.

                BTW, the unholy koran makes for some fine field expedient toilet paper. So I guess there is a use for it.

              • Thanks for your civil reply and thanks for your service. I did mine during Viet Nam.

                I’d just like to point out that, even during the time of Jesus, the practice was rampant in many places. Ancient Greek (I presume) art depicts an adult fondling a male youth. It would also make sense that their version of consent might also be skewed from how we view it today. Anyway, if the practice was abhorrent during the time of Jesus, why is there little to no material on the topic in the Bible. I believe that’s because they probably had some way to engage in the practice respectfully within the two cultures and that actual pedophilia was considered a very self-serving disrespectful act; even back then.

                I don’t pretend to be an expert on the matter, but it certainly makes some sense that we might be judging past practice by today’s standard. As for your experience over there, it reminds me of the abuses that the Catholic Church pushed onto many young kids over here. A number of Muslims I know are embarrassed about the accusations against Mohammed ……. but again, that was a different time and the reason we aren’t hearing about it in the Bible is because it probably wasn’t considered a big deal.

                Look at Leviticus 20. It details every taboo in the book, including having sex during a woman’s menstrual period; even women having sex with animals, yet not one mention of what we, today, refer to as pedophilia. The following article is bent more at criticizing Islam than defending it, but I still find it interesting in that, despite all the negative commentary, it provides a good insight into the cultural differences I spoke about.
                http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2013/10/was-muhammad-pedophile.html

                Looking at it another way, we’ve had issues with incest and who knows what other activity in this country for years, even among people supposedly aligning themselves with Christianity. The point I’m trying to make is that people will do whatever they want and then find some way to justify it, whether they are well-bred and wealthy or dirt poor Appalachian hillbillies with missing teeth ….. not unlike people you probably ran into over there.

              • “I’m not going to engage in the same idiotic nonsense that I had to deal with in Scot’s total state of denial, but I will say this; I was once in your two guys’ shoes and felt the same way about Islam.”

                You have no idea how I feel about Islam.

                And it is you, with your anti-Christian bias, who seems to believe that the West is run by Christianity, and who ignores the widespread support for Islamism among Muslims, that is in denial.

              • Anti-Christian? …. Anti-Christian? Hardly.
                What concerns me is the hypocrisy in BOTH camps. I thought you would have picked up on that by now. You seem to like cherry picking and distortion so much that we thought we’d just let you run with the ball and make an ass of yourself ……. again. You didn’t disappoint us.

              • Ah, you’re a Snowden fan. Got it.

                Anyone who talks about the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers deserves the tin-foil hat comment. Oddly enough I haven’t seen any of the conspiracy theory group actually do anything to fix the problems, they just rant about them. And complain about others.

                “My statement about the Quran being vilified was merely the politically flip side of what Muslim leaders are encouraging with respect to attitudes towards Christians. ”

                Oh, so it was something you just made up, supposedly to make a point. It’s still false, as is the false claim of equivalence between Islamist leaders (now you’re the one making claims about “Muslim leaders” without distinguishing between Islamists and others), and any leaders in the West.

                “I still stand with my comment that people who understand the Quran and don’t cherry pick sections of it to bolster some political argument, see it as a religion of peace. ”

                You can stand by your incorrect comment, but the only way that anyone can see Islam (not the Qur’an, the Qur’an is a book, not a religion) as a religion of peace is to cherry pick sections of the Qur’an. And to ignore the many non-peaceful Muslims, and the polls of the Islamic world that indicate that even many Muslims who do not engage in violent jihad agree with the goals of violent jihad.

                You ignore the fact that Islamists engage in violence against Jews, Christians, and other Muslims in the name of Allah and Islam. You also seem to confuse Western Culture/Civilization with Christianity. And act as if the conflict is a religious conflict. Outside of the United States, much of the Western world is secular, not religious.

                But, as you’ve admitted that you just made up your claim that “forces” were vilifying the Qur’an, you’re free to go, as you indicated you were going to several days ago.

              • Why am I not surprised that you have to continually twist what I say around in order for your bigotry to come out smelling like a rose?

                Go back to sleep, Scot.

              • Why am I not surprised that you can’t actually point to anywhere that I’ve twisted what you say? As in, “This is what I said….” “This is what I meant…” and “This is how you distorted it…”

                Thank you.

              • @BR549, The unholy Koran is satanic at best. As for your description of OT battles, yep, that’s war. Fortunately for us, we live now under the new covenant as described by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus, in the NT.

              • Sorry, El Mac, but I have to disagree. My guess is that BOTH the Quran and the NT were attempts to escape the bloodshed espoused in the OT. I’m no specialist on the Talmud mind you, but it seems that the Jews are still plagued with the same problem the others face; that whatever peace-love and flowery, compassionate language they all have, in the end, when it comes time to actually PRACTICE their religions and these people are forced to make actual choices about their behavior, too many of the practitioners in each camp are still opting for duking it out. In that sense, none of these religions has really done a whole lot to promote peace and a love for fellow man.

                The “Thou Shalt Not Covet ……” part sounds all nice and everything, but when it came down to Abraham coveting land that other tribes happened to be living on (I realize the Ten Commandments hadn’t been written yet), everyone seems to turn a blind eye. I forget the historical expression for the practice, but it refers to resetting the clock of legitimate ownership AFTER a conquering people has moved in to take possession of someone else’s land. In the area of the Levant, alone, we had, in no particular order, the Greeks, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Assyrians and others, who were guilty of the same practice. People’s had been occupying the Levant for over 80,000 years (it was a transmigrational corridor going back to the Neanderthals). Why should anyone think that the land belongs to them? It belongs to ALL of them.

                I would argue that as long as anyone is still attempting to justify ownership of that area, they are missing the boat on their own respective religious text, and that goes for BOTH sides. I believe the Promised Land was an advanced state of mind, not a plot of sand with a goat on it.

                On another note, the actual practice of following these religious texts appears to have become corrupted through centuries of self-justifying behavior by the politicians of their time. While we may have attempted to distance religion and politics, the Muslims either didn’t or couldn’t. The Quran is not a satanic book filled with hate. Many of its passages have direct corollaries with passages in the Bible, even the parts about compassion and forgiveness. So, if we have hot-heads over here who can’t practice compassion and forgiveness, why should we expect them to have to comply? They are both spiritually immature brothers in the same family of Abraham, and because we happen to see life through a different lens, we start pointing fingers of accusation (intolerance) at them whenever they do something that culturally doesn’t make sense to us.

                Where we are right now is that Abraham’s family would be diagnosed as dysfunctional and the kids are ruling the roost. They take things that don’t belong to them, have no concept of boundaries, are disrespectful to their “parents”, and want to eat what they want and go to bed whenever they want. That last part refers to not taking care of themselves or being willing to listen to authority about how to do so. All of these “rules” of the family, were set down as societal preservation measures and just look where we are now, ………. on the verge of wiping mankind off the face of the planet, with each side still blaming the other for what is happening.

              • @BR549, “My guess is that BOTH the Quran and the NT were attempts to escape the bloodshed espoused in the OT”….i didn’t need to even read any further. Sorry bro, you lost me right there. You know what they say. About horses and water. Good luck amigo.

              • Have you ever actually read either the Q’uran or a history of the life of their prophet?

                That you can, evidently with a straight face, that “BOTH the Quran and the NT were attempts to escape the bloodshed espoused in the OT,” would indicate that you haven’t.

                For that matter that you see that the Old Testament “espouses” bloodshed in general would indicate that you’re not that familiar with the entire Old Testament, just certain select portions of it.

                Odd that you seem to blame Abraham for a practice that has been universal among humans and throughout history until very recently. For that matter, it’s odd that you think that anything that happened when Abraham was a live has any impact on what happens today.

                The idea that any particular plot of land belongs to ‘everyone’ that might have an historical claim on it results in that plot of land (and anything else you apply that meaningless idea to) belonging to no one.

                You speak of authority. Who or what, in the context of the Middle East conflict is an “authority” (one that has power to give orders)?

              • “new covenant as described by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus, in the NT.”

                Can you explain the mechanism where becoming dead is a step on the path to eternal life? Are the zombies the resurrected corpses of the True Believers that get called up when Gabriel’s Trumpet sounds?
                >;->

              • @Rich Grise, I really wish I had the skills to help you Rich. I really do. But I don’t. But I will pray for you brother. That much I can do.

              • “I really wish I had the skills to help you Rich.”

                How very magnanimous of you 😉

                But, help me do what? (I can’t really respond to these things any faster than they show up in my email…)

              • “one God tells His followers to love one another and treat each other as they themselves would want to be treated. The other admonishes its adherents to kill infidels/non-believers.”

                Yabbut:

                “The spectrum of the Spirit Polarity goes from Lucifer on the extreme left to Ahriman on the extreme right, with your spirit and my loving Light, of course, in the center. Lucifer is warm, earthy, sweet and sexual, and often mean, brutish and demanding. Ahriman is cool, mental, astringent and rational, and quite detached and judgmental.

                “While Lucifer is sly, Ahriman is clever, and they both hate the Mother, but for different reasons. In a face to face battle, Ahriman will always outwit Lucifer, and yet Lucifer will sometimes win with sheer force of ill intent and ‘dirty tricks’.
                — http://www.godchannel.com/redemption.html

                If your God is so loving, howcome he condones mass murder of human beings?

              • Ah, so you believe that it’s all subjective and relative.

                In that case, what are you doing going along with the idea so often expressed in this forum that there is an actual right to keep and bear arms.

              • “In that case, what are you doing going along with the idea so often expressed in this forum that there is an actual right to keep and bear arms.”

                No, I believe the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. And the Constitution guarantees freedom from religion, and does not authorize foreign adventurism or nation-building.

                Hope this clears things up. (your little anti-2A snipe isn’t really worth noticing.)

              • Rich,

                The First Amendment says that Congress may not pass any laws concerning the establishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof. It says nothing about freedom ‘from’ religion. The states could pass such laws until SCOTUS used the 14th Amendment to incorporate the 1st against the states.

                By improperly stating what the Constitution says you’re just reinforcing the idea that you don’t believe in subjective truth.

                Constitution doesn’t prohibit “foreign adventurism or nation-building” either.

                My point wasn’t anti- the Second Amendment, it was just to point out that with your lack of a belief in objective truth, you really have no place on the pro-gun side, you’d fit much better with the antis.

              • “Constitution doesn’t prohibit “foreign adventurism or nation-building” either. ”

                It doesn’t authorize them. You seem to think the government is some behemoth that can do whatever it wants except the 10 things in the Bill of Rights. The opposite is true. Without the Constitution, the government is nothing. The Constitution authorizes Congress to do 18 things, called the Enumerated Powers.

                That’s supposed to be the extent of it.

                Have you ever actually read the Constitution?
                See it here: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

                Maybe learn something!

              • While I’d prefer it not to be true, Congress can pass any law that is ‘necessary and proper’ to achieve one of the enumerated powers. And the test is only that there be a rational relationship.

                Your analogy about my neighbor would work if 1) there were no legal system in place; 2) there were no police; and 3) my neighbor had killed some of my family and stated his intention to kill more of them.

                That you don’t understand why the analogy totally doesn’t work isn’t surprising given your evident world view.

                Murder still has an actual definition, and you’re still misusing it.

                Pretending that you engage in rational discussions isn’t useful.

              • How many must die to slake your bloodlust for revenge? 10,000? 100,000? How much revenge is enough?

                Notwithstanding the Xtians took first blood in the Crusades, 800 or 1000 years ago.

              • @Rich Grise, you condon the murder innocent men, women, children, from many different nationalities and religions by the musloid radicals on 9/11? http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Terrorism/Victims-of-the-September-11th-2001-attacks If so, I can’t help you.

                As for Christians drawing first blood during the Crusades, that all depends on your point of view. If you side with the musloids that invaded the Holy Lands and threatened western Europe via Turkey and Spain, then you are correct. If you side with the Europeans that wanted to resist that hostile takeover, then you are dead wrong.

                Me not being a musloid tend to side with the Europeans of old…

              • “condon[sic] the murder innocent men, women, children, from many different nationalities and religions by the musloid radicals on 9/11?”

                Of course not, you nincompoop! But my Christ, man, it was almost fifteen years ago! Get over it! There are people dying at the hands of your idols who weren’t even born when those Saudis Super-Bobbitted the towers. And the original perps died in the attack!

                Will your bloodlust ever be slaked?

              • “WTF are you talking about?”

                I’m still ranting about the criminal insanity of the senseless murder being perpetrated by the American Administration. The only rationale I’ve heard for it is the resources, but shit man fuck, it’d be a million times cheaper to just BUY the resources!

              • Murder has an actual definition. You’re misusing the word.

                And if you haven’t heard any other rationale for a forward defense, you haven’t been listening, or are sufficiently biased that it would be futile to try to explain it to you.

              • “forward defense”

                Man, that’s some rationalization!

                That’s like breaking into your neighbor’s house and gunning him down as an “advance defense” against him attacking you.

                I believe you are too ill for me to carry on a rational discussion with.

              • @Rich Grise, please be specific. I can’t answer or respond unless you are specific, what murders??

              • Historically inaccurate.

                The Muslims took the first blood when they conquered the Christian kingdoms that existed in the Holy Land prior to the Islamic invasion. The Crusades were a belated response.

                It’s not revenge. A proper response would have been what Rome eventually did to Carthage. Hopefully they’ll have learned not to do this sort of thing, but since we’re being nice about it, and have citizens like you who evidently don’t care when the US is attacked, I’m not sanguine about their education.

        • @Rich. Afghanistan = Lithium deposits, Iraq = Oil, Kuwait = Money (for protection). If anyone were to look into the resources of any nation the US has invaded/”liberated”, you will find where the money trail ends.

  2. @RF, oh good grief bro….really? Here we go again…. (it must be ratings week for you)

    • Weblogs don’t have ratings week. But you do sound like you’re having that time of the month.

    • People like to talk about a slippery slope, and it’s true, this site is starting to become more and more like infowars, and less thetruthaboutguns.

      • And you don’t think “An MRAP for every town” is a part of a serious slippery slope? What about when they need 50 cals mounted on them? What about when the cops start using drones? At what point are we allowed to become alarmed?

        • Actually I agree with you. I do not heart police militarization at all. But this article, and many of the comments, are an extreme over exaggeration of the realities of Vets returning to the work force.

  3. Honestly what can be done to combat this dangerous and unconstitutional trend of law enforcement tooling up like a bunch of mall ninjas With the sense to match?

    • I’d like to see who wins a battle of chicken between an MRAP and a D10 Cat on a bridge. I hope those giggling pukes in the MRAP have gills.

      • My old man used to have a Cat D5 some years ago. A D10 is a monstrous thing. I see your MRAP and crush you into tiny little souls of pain….

        Tom

  4. Why the hell does Pocatello need an armored vehicle??? How often do they have an officer down situation at any time where they need to send in something like an MRAP?

    • I have no idea. I’ve spent substantial time in Pocatello and you could just about lay down and take a nap on Main Street.

      The area is 75%+ LDS, and just about as Republican. The town has lots of desk jobs, but the surrounding areas are intensive agriculture, depending on what their groundwater situation is now. You can probably count the homicides in Pocatello in any given year on one hand – usually with unused fingers after you’re done.

      The cops there need a MRAP about as much as they need a blimp.

      • The problem is that such machines need maintenance and repair.

        Many police departments have run into this sort of issue when acquiring new fangled military tech. It is asinine how expensive they can be for a small city like pocatello to maintain. Sometimes such machines sit idle, unused, because departments cant afford to operate them.

        • Most departments can barely afford to maintain their fleet of squads let alone an MRAP. I remember at one point working for an agency where because of budget issues there was contention over who would pay for new uniforms after the agency switched uniform colors.

          • @DM, which is what I’ve said all along. These MRAPs/scary trucks to the weak minded, will end up being a static display.

  5. Well said. Cops and soldiers should have very different mentalities. Making the police into an effective military force should be terrifying to us

    • I think you just hit on it. Cops and soldiers need to have different mentalities and a lot of soldiers that are returning and becoming LEOs are not switching gears as they switch to new uniforms. This is apparent in the more aggressive tactics being utilized by law enforcement that can be seen in the increased use of no knock warrants, increased use of excessive force complaints and the purchase of all of this decommissioned military hardware.

      I think returning soldiers have the ability to be some of the best police officers out there but I think they need to be retrained to think and approach situations differently. The truth is that departments across the country are failing to set the appropriate agendas for how their officers (vet and non vet alike) should think and behave when on the job.

  6. So, In the middle of the night, 2 o’clock in the morning, you have somebody down, you have an officer down… anybody can get in and get there for the rescue.” . . .

    As if that’s actually happened. It sounds more like Marchand’s wish than his fear.

    I can save myself from bad guys. Who the hell is going to save me from cops who think they’re Rambo and I’m Taliban?

    • That thing is just a great big hammer looking for a nail.

      What’s wrong with just speeding to the scene in your regular patrol car (that you are already in) when you get a call for an officer down. If I was the “officer down” I’d want the back-up there faster rather than bigger.

      Makes no sense to me.

    • ‘I can save myself from bad guys. Who the hell is going to save me from cops…’

      Exactly. If I wake up to the sound of my door being kicked in in the middle of the night my first thought will not be a home invasion, it will be that the police has the wrong address. If a criminal or a gang of criminals invades my home and I open fire, those criminals fortunate enough to be still alive are likely to flee. If on the other hand I open up and it turns out to be a SWAT team they will return fire with their fully automatic weapons spraying bullets all over the neighborhood and after depleting their dozen or so 30 round magazines I will be shot once or maybe even twice (as well as my wife, dog and a few of my neighbors). Furthermore, should an actual criminal violently invade my home in the middle of the night I might lose my life because of the hesitation I must have out of fear of the police. I am therefore officially more afraid of the police than I am of the criminal.

      • I agree. The police will take a half an hour to show up because they cannot find the right address. So they are not very effective. The SWAT teams would be deadly at the wrong address.

        • ‘The SWAT teams would be deadly at the wrong address.’

          There’s no ‘would be’ to it. They routinely get the wrong address and innocent people (and dogs) die every year because of it. Not to mention it’s anyone’s guess how many meth pipes have been planted to cover up their mistakes.

  7. a college boy who skipped thedraft cause his folks could afford to pay his way to school called me a baby killer back in the day. Now a new generation of men that served their country gets slammed by another non hacker.

    Wonder if your father, a man that survived the death camps, would have taken such a low swipe at combat veterans as you have with this article?

    • Wonder if your father, a man that survived the death camps, would have taken such a low swipe at combat veterans as you have with this article?

      Not knowing his father I can only take a guess. But given the fact that he was a holocaust survivor I suspect he may applaud the fact that his son speaks out against a culture that unquestioningly canonizes certain blocs of society for no other reason that the fact that they ARE part of that bloc.

      When there is a distinction made between certain “classes” of United States citizens, we have a problem. When that distinction involves the tools and tactics of war being used by one class against another, we have bigger problems. That’s the road we’re traveling and Farago is simply pointing out that it leads right off a cliff.

    • Sounds like you will see your insecurities anywhere. I’m pretty sure “thank you for your service” was in there somewhere. By you making this about yourself you may have in fact just made yourself seam more pedestrian. Not trying to be rude but the Anti-gunners see their conclusion anywhere also.

      • “Thank you for your service, ladies and gentlemen but….” More like a slap to the face. He has never worn a uniform so he can jump off a cliff. This is the guy who couldn’t stand the anti-gun heat up in New England and beat feet to Texas. Apparently when the going gets tough; RF tucks tail and runs. Wake up people; your fearless leader is just another sheep behind a keyboard.

    • Low swipe? So police militarization is a good thing? So the attitude that everything is fair game as long as the cops goes home at might is a good thing? So Pocafvckingtello Idaho just turned into Fallujah? When the hell did that happen?

      How did you get so warped?

      • That is pretty funny! I am very familiar with that region of Idaho and seriously this is a place that needs Andy Griffith not the Army Rangers. Underage drinking, some drugs, and some random violent acts. Not exactly the ripe area for roads riddled with IED’s

      • You know, Ralph, I’ve spent lots of time in eastern ID. The people there are so very nice – they’re nicer and more polite than Canadians, for cryin’ out loud.

        The idea that the local 5-0 needs any armored vehicle is absurd to anyone who has spent time in Pocatello or Idaho Falls. They’re such rock-ribbed Mormon communities that if anyone wanted to find a dangerous criminal, all you’d have to do is check in with the congregations at the local Wards on Sunday morning and before picnic time on Sunday afternoon, you’ll probably have them cuffed and stuffed.

        Mormon communities are so quiet because everyone keeps an eye on everything going on. If the cops want to know “where do we find Mr. X?” all they have to do is ask. Folks will likely drive the cops right over there. Want to know where your kids were this afternoon? Just ask the neighbors. They’ll give you a minute-by-minute breakdown of what your kids were doing – and with whom.

        I get the feeling that most of the pro-cop posters here have never been in serious LDS country in the west. And by “serious LDS country,” I don’t mean Salt Lake City. Eastern Idaho is serious LDS country, as is northern UT from Nevada to Wyoming, western Wyoming from Evanston up to Afton, eastern Nevada through southern Utah.

        When I go hunting in some of these communities, I’ll check into a hotel by about 4pm and before dinnertime, everyone in town will know there’s a couple of “gentiles” who drink the evil fire water, staying over to the local hotel. Of course, I never get a straight answer to my question “Why does your hotel even have ‘evil fire water’… unless you’ve got a regular trainload of us gentiles passing through here?”

        One of the usual answers I get is “Well, we don’t rightly know, but we’ve heard tell of a bunch of Jack Mormons around these parts…”

        • Sounds like that Twilight Zone episode where a traveling salesman with car trouble winds up in an isolated town where everyone & everything is eerie-creepy & he is treated like an intruder. Later they erase his brain of any memory of having been there & send him on his way.

          I’ve heard of the Mormon Intermountain Corridor.

    • Wow jwm! Glad to see you back! I remember seeing you all the time in the comments (you know how you get to remember the regulars) and suddenly I feel like you haven’t been on TTAG in several months.

      • Yea – Apparently he had a brain transplant while he was gone. I would imagine RF father would not have enjoyed the sight of gestapo patrolling the streets (Gestapo = secret state police). When I look at a police officer in gear fit for Ridley Scott’s “Alien 2” I feel a bit of a connection between those with police operator syndrome and the brainwashed follow-any-order police Gestapo of WW2.

    • Riiiiight.

      How dare the son of holocaust survivor speak about heavy handed government action…..

      Didn’t really think the logic all the way through on that one did you son?

      • combat vets liberated the death camps and stop the killing was the point I was making.

        Thanks for your service, but…….

        Sounds a lot like… I support 2a, but…..

        Police are over militarised. No argument. But we voters keep allowing the mayors and councils and chiefs free rein to push that agenda. Don’t blame the vet looking for a paycheck for the failure of we citizens.

        • I blame the vet for his mercenary behavior and the lazy, stupid citizens for their ignorance and apathy. Both are culpable.

        • The police are purchasing the equipment based on their budget (and the MRAPs are very cheap). If the police are vets – and the vets are buying the equipment – who is to blame again?

        • @Michael B. Don’t blame the vets, blame Daryl Gates. Also read Rise of the Warrior Cop.

        • >> combat vets liberated the death camps and stop the killing was the point I was making.

          Funny you should mention that. The combat vets who liberated death camps in WW2 also executed quite a few guards in those camps who surrendered – no trial, just lined them up against the wall and shot them. Now I won’t argue over whether this was a moral thing to do, but it was definitely a very un-cop-like thing. I don’t want cops performing extrajudicial executions on apprehended criminals on the basis that their crime was “sufficiently heinous” or some such.

    • Surprised no one said it yet–is it just too obvious? I have to guess that a man who survived the death camps would be pretty damn leery of “cops” kitted out indistinguishably from soldiers. Those weren’t soldiers guarding the camps, they were part of the national internal security apparatus (read: cops).

  8. “Thank you for your service, ladies and gentlemen but . . .”

    Thanks… but no thanks.
    I grew up on a farm, so I know the true meaning of ‘service’.
    Those who mindlessly thank the brainwashed tools of of the Powers-That-Be without ever once bothering to think through the implications of their actions are little more than well-trained herd animals.

    • Brainwashed tools? Just exactly how long do you think this country would remain free, and the most powerful, capable, and influential country in the world if those “brainwashed tools” no longer existed?

      We are not currently actively fending off attacks on our country, but the mere existence and presence of our military is an EXTREMELY potent deterrent.

      Once upon a time, military service was viewed as one of those most honorable and selfless things a person could do. It’s a shame so many anti-American pieces of shit ridicule and disrespect our armed forces nowadays.

        • Because I’m sure you were very anti war in March of 2003…. Just like no one voted for Nixon the second time around

        • When was this the case? If you’re going to say something like that, let’s see a time span. Because from the Whiskey Rebellion to our current deployments all over the world I think you’d be hard pressed to find a couple of decades where there weren’t what we could call “questionable” uses of military in there.

        • I extremely anti war in March of 2003 and I wasn’t alone. I actually laughed as C. Powell when he gave that ridiculous WMD presentation to the UN. I guess you believe everything you read in the paper.

      • Thank you for reinforcing my point.

        “Just exactly how long do you think this country would remain free..”

        Free??
        Dude! Are you really that freaking blind?
        The USA hasn’t been a free country for decades.

        “We are not currently actively fending off attacks on our country, but the mere existence and presence of our military is an EXTREMELY potent deterrent. ”

        Ah yes… because because nothing says ‘deterrent’ quite like slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians.

        “Once upon a time, military service was viewed as one of those most honorable and selfless things a person could do.”

        Of course it was… the brainwashed masses have always been present throughout history-
        which is why history continues to repeat itself.

        “It’s a shame so many anti-American pieces of shit ridicule and disrespect our armed forces nowadays.”

        The real shame is that the majority of the population will forever lack the wit and/ or the wherewhithal to recognize that the military (as well as the police, the BATF, DEA, NIH, FDA, DHS, FBI, CIA, NSA, TSA. etc. , etc.) are nothing more than useful idiots in the employ of those who seek to usurp our liberties.

        • Yes. Free. Whether you choose to recognize it or not, the people of The United States of America still enjoy more freedoms than anyone else, anywhere else on the planet. There’s a reason that the United States is the number one destination for people to emigrate to.

          Let’s do a little exercise. Pretend for a moment that the United States Military suddenly didn’t exist anymore. Exactly how long do you think it would be until a place like North Korea, or China, or Russia, Iraq, or Afghanistan, or possibly some combination of the aforementioned, attacked the United States?

          Most people who serve in the military, at least our military, do so because they feel it’s the right thing to do. A country as capable as the United States has a moral and ethical obligation to help those who cannot help themselves, whether it’s to defeat an insurgent army or to provide humanitarian relief after any one of a number of disasters, natural or man-made.

          Our military is NOTHING like the TSA, NSA, ATF, or any other government agency who operates within our borders. Those agencies depend on interaction with people in the United States to stay employed; the military does not operate in the United States.

          You clearly have very little, if any, real world knowledge of the way our military men and women think. If you did, you would change your tune drastically. They do not serve the President, the Senate, or any other government entity. They joined to serve the citizens of the United States, and citizens of other countries when and if they need it.

          The men and women who serve in our Armed Forces are putting their lives on the line for you, every single day. The main purpose of our military is to protect the citizens of the United States. Their presence serves as a deterrent, and that is the most obvious way in which they protect you. But they can’t just stand around and do nothing all day, waiting for someone to attack them. Other people in other places need help too; but I guarantee most, if not all, of them would be called away to defeat whatever piece of shit attacked. But their lives are still at risk doing their other duties.

          For you to not only not appreciate their willing sacrifice, but to ridicule and openly disrespect them for it? That is the lowest you can go. Like it or not, this country NEEDS our military. We would not exist without it.

        • @Alaskan

          Let’s do a little exercise. Pretend for a moment that the United States Military suddenly didn’t exist anymore. Exactly how long do you think it would be until a place like North Korea, or China, or Russia, Iraq, or Afghanistan, or possibly some combination of the aforementioned, attacked the United States?

          Honestly, I don’t believe any country would ever invade the United States. The losses would be astounding. Imagine invading a country where there are more than guns than people and every 20th or so person has 25 rifles to hand out to his neighbors and has a stockpile of thousands of ammunition. Where every rural citizen would and likely has the means and experience to be an exceptional sniper.

          North Korea – despite what you hear on the news North Koreans are starving to death. They are dying. The country can’t even take care of itself.

          China – What would China produce or sell if they invaded the US?? Think of all those millions of Walmarts (National distribution center of China). We are china’s best customer and their greatest consumer of cheap plastic junk. There is no benefit to china attacking the US.

          Russia – Russia has little interest in attacking or invading the US. What would they gain from it? Russia and the US don’t want to trade nukes. Instead we like to harass defenseless third world countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Russia and the US have zero interest in attacking each other… which brings us to….

          Iraq and Afghanistan – third world countries. Goat herding, camel riding, shepherds. But sure – lets imagine them jumping into their fancy jets and transporting their… weapons of mass destruction over to the US to attack.

        • @Alaskan

          Most people who serve in the military, at least our military, do so because they feel it’s the right thing to do. A country as capable as the United States has a moral and ethical obligation to help those who cannot help themselves, whether it’s to defeat an insurgent army or to provide humanitarian relief after any one of a number of disasters, natural or man-made.

          I don’t want to serve in the Military because I feel it is the wrong thing to do. You would think that a country as capable and full of moral and ethical people would feel obligated to do something to help all those people being slaughtered abroad (american’s included) combating insurgent forces (insurgent * adjective – a rebel or revolutionary – i.e. a freedom fighter). We like to drop some bombs and blow up mosques, churches, town homes you name it or shoot cameramen from warbirds all in the name of “humanitarian relief.” Blow up some kids? That’s collateral damage folks. They aren’t kids – not even people – they are “collateral damage.” Nevermind we have no business being there in the first place as we play global police officer. Here is your citation Iraq!

        • @Alaskan

          Our military is NOTHING like the TSA, NSA, ATF, or any other government agency who operates within our borders. Those agencies depend on interaction with people in the United States to stay employed; the military does not operate in the United States.

          The NSA, TSA, FBI, and CIA provide information for and work closely with military forces. The military exists from and is based in the United states. Don’t pretend they are some foreign object. Don’t pretend for a moment they would question an order to patrol US streets or issue curfews. In fact, the Delta force was dispatched at Waco during the siege. The US has no problem assassinating US citizens without due process. Furthermore the topic of the post is the militarization of police. You state the military does not operate in the United States. It appears the two are certainly in the process of convergence yes? Why else would a small town of 5000 need a MRAP? Maybe they need tank mounted 50BMG’s next. Javalin Rockets? Whatever makes those cops safer yea?

        • @Alaskan

          You clearly have very little, if any, real world knowledge of the way our military men and women think. If you did, you would change your tune drastically. They do not serve the President, the Senate, or any other government entity. They joined to serve the citizens of the United States, and citizens of other countries when and if they need it.

          They did join to serve the citizens of the United States. They did join to serve the citizens of other countries when and if they needed it. However, in the end – they served the president, the senate, and US corporations and billionaires. They performed their dirty work and made them money at the order of their superiors – and many were injured and died for it.

        • @Alaskan

          The men and women who serve in our Armed Forces are putting their lives on the line for you, every single day. The main purpose of our military is to protect the citizens of the United States. Their presence serves as a deterrent, and that is the most obvious way in which they protect you. But they can’t just stand around and do nothing all day, waiting for someone to attack them. Other people in other places need help too; but I guarantee most, if not all, of them would be called away to defeat whatever piece of shit attacked. But their lives are still at risk doing their other duties.

          They are not putting their lives on the line for me. I never asked them to go there. I don’t want them to go there. They are aggressively invading a foreign sovereign nation on the other side of the planet and blowing up mosques and splattering small Muslim children – wasn’t my moral choice. I do realize we are getting fuel at a great price compared to other nations. I think a lot of backs are being scratched in congress for this kind of thing. Also, we have a large military filled with employees. Yes – employees. We also have a lot of jobs that manufacture military weapons. What would all those soldiers, colonels, majors, and career military personnel do if we asked them to get a real job and stop blowing people up on the other side of the planet all under the guise of “acting as a deterrent.” What would all those military manufacturer’s, engineers, drafters, machinists – what would they do if they had to stop manufacturing MRAP’s? They would have to get a real job and get pulled off of the cushy government contract teats. Why do you think the police are getting MRAPs for a mere $1000 each? Because they are subsidized by your and my tax dollars and we stopped blowing people up on the other side of the planet for one minute.

        • @Alaskan

          For you to not only not appreciate their willing sacrifice, but to ridicule and openly disrespect them for it? That is the lowest you can go. Like it or not, this country NEEDS our military. We would not exist without it.

          I have no disrespect for them. I feel bad for them. My uncle was a lieutenant colonel in the Korean war. He retired just shy of being a colonel and had no interest in the military ever again. My neighbor and close friend was killed by a TBI while over in Iraq. I do have disrespect for the industry however. I don’t see anything noble about aggressively invading sovereign foreign nations on the other side of the planet, installing governments loyal to ours, and call it defense. Honestly, this country does need our military nevertheless. – after all we love oil and we like it cheap. Without our standing army (in some other country of course), we might have to ride a moped/scooter instead of transporting our one self in a giant gargantuan SUV or king ranch truck. We might have to fix something instead of throwing it away and buying a replacement (from China no doubt). We might have to get off our bottoms and go turn a lever on a machine or use our back muscles instead of clicking a button on a mouse. We might have to lose weight, get off the diabetic medication for one second, and go do something laborious. We have to maintain our way of life – at the expense of many others elsewhere. But who is complaining right? MRAPS… lovin it.

      • New flash.

        Our “freedom” is just a fortunate side effect. My cows probably think they have it pretty good.
        I keep away predators, and make sure they don’t starve…

        We are tax cattle in the eyes of the government. The level of “freedom” they give us will always be just a fortunate side effect of the most economical methods of tax cattle humans.

        If we didn’t have governments we wouldn’t need soldiers.

        • @Richard, “If we didn’t have governments we wouldn’t need soldiers.”

          Winner! Perhaps the dumbest thing I’ve read in some time…you might as well believe in leprechauns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow too.

        • That last line just sealed the deal as far as your irrelevance in this conversation. Not that the rest of your post made any more sense.

          Our government does not “give” us any freedoms at all. Sure, many in government like to think they do, but they simply don’t. Our freedom is bestowed upon us by God, and regardless of what the people in government *think*, the fact of the matter is that they exist to serve We the People.

          And yes, without governments we wouldn’t need soldiers to protect us, because every person would BE a soldier, fighting for their survival.

        • So your in favor of anarchy? Hmm… Wonder how long you’d last in that shitshow. I know all those people in MadMax looked like they just loved thier lives.

    • I’m going to apply the same logic to you that you apply to us ok? Well since your a ignorant uneducated hick farmer- it’s your fault all these illegal immigrants are swarming are borders because you dumb farmers are the ones that are hiring them to do all the hard work your lazy butts don’t want to do. Farm work is where the vast majority of these workers go, so obviously it’s your fault. You have no idea what service means because you simply watch all them Mexicans do that hard work. Now tell me, does that feel good mr all American farmer?

      • BOS, trolling the boards again? I’ve noticed your MO; lay down ridiculous statements, then run to the next forum when called out.

        • Hahahahaha, Yes Paco, I go running to the next forum as if there is any physical reason…. Good God you are indeed stupid. Please explain to me how my post was trolling? I was providing mr brown owl of an example of his behavior in a different light. I’m glad I make you so mad that my name sticks out in your mind. Do you dream about me too?

        • Lol Bos, shills like yourself are flat out too ridiculous to take seriously, let alone piss anyone off.

        • So your telling me illegal immigrants do not do half the farming in this country? Because I dare you to do some actual real research into it, or even simply drive out to find the illegal immigrant shanty towns that are all over this country, and ask them what they do for work here.

      • For the most part, Farmer in the Mid-West do not use Mexicans. We reserve the manual labor for our children. Kids love the farm! Really, my kids have worked for PB Stewart and I worked on the farm as my family generations before me. I think kids are better when they do farm labors. It builds a sense of work ethic, pride, responsibility, and maturity in them.

    • I REALLY hate to admit it, but, based on this thread I conclude that the libtards may be right in their belief that there ARE a large number of morons that own guns.

      Police does not equal Militarized popo
      Militarized popo does not equal US Military
      Very very little of the US Military are combat forces. Too damn little, if you counted up the number of combat
      arms companies (Infantry, Armor, Artillery) you would/should be disturbed..
      If you are not a combat arms vet your opinion of the US Military is of not really relevant you don’t know diddly about the subject. (or would you like to have that sugar coated).

      MRAPs were not purchased because there was a valid combat requirement in the US Army/USMC. They were shoved down the throat of DOD by anti military libtard pansies out to prove “I don’t support the war but I support the troops” (see also drones/model airplanes). That would be the same idiots that voted to destroy our enemies post 9/11 when they, temporarily, had a brain and then spent the next 10years denying they declared war. If the Army needed MRAPs (or armored cabs for trucks or armored HMMWVs) they would have bought the useless POS during the Cold War.

  9. RF- You certainly make some great points. I think that there is a serious problem with our law enforcement culture. How do we fix such a thing? I can’t offer too much in the way of ideas besides this spec ops officer attitude come from the top. The people in charge make patriots out to be terrorists and the media takes the molehill and makes a mountain.
    There is one warning I will throw out to leos that love the new “toys” to combat “terror” or whatever- You know that “live by the sword, die by the sword” saying? Yes indeed this applies here. You want to step up to a new level of fighting? Self fulfilling much? Push for a police state and you will have the appropriate resistance. And yet so many people still want to take our guns away…

    • How do we fix such a thing?

      We can’t. The police have to do it. They have to remember why they’re on the job. And it isn’t to drive around in Beatcats and MRAPs. It isn’t to make 2:00 AM no-knocks raids and kills dogs. It isn’t to be urban Rambos. Until they figure that out, they will continue to be highly suspect.

  10. “If we don’t want the government to wage war on its own people,”
    I think it is to late. I think this is coming. What do we do about it? I have no clue. But, I do not think we can stop it from starting.
    Just my 2 cents worth.

  11. JWM: the folks who survived the death camps knew all about police militarization. They called them the S.S. and Gestapo.
    Please take a glance at what Gestapo is the abbreviation for in the article below
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo

    Geheime Staatspolizei, “Secret State Police”)

    Sorry to let the self righteous wind out of your sails, but, do clue in to some history.

  12. RF, I totally agree re: police militarization and the us vs them mentality. But “thank you for your service but…” Is in the same category as “I support the second amendment but…” Just sayin’.

    • That’s not a valid argument.

      You’re trying to make a point by comparing it to something it isn’t, just because they have something in common.

      Part of me feels the same way as you, and I totally understand where you are coming from… but that feeling is not an argument. It has no true logic or reason behind it.

      One of the biggest problems with our police force is the soldier attitude.
      I think it’s safe to say that mass hirings of soldiers to become police is related to that.
      So…. (as much as it *feels* wrong) thank you for your service, BUT.

  13. Jwm, he is no longer a soldier, no one here is going to be shooting rpg7s at him. This isnt iraq, its the usa

  14. “You can’t put a price on safety.”

    The only people who say that regularly are people in law enforcement and fire protection who pay the price with other people’s money.

    I work with cops and firemen from multiple municipalities and departments. I have much more respect for the work they do than your average gun blogger. But when they want something, they just say, “We need it, this is how much it costs, cut the check.”

    They never give a thought to the resources they consume or the fact that those resources come from the citizens they’re hired to protect.

    • I was thinking largely the same thing. Anyone who says “You can’t put a price on safety” is almost certainly a government employee.

      This is because, in the private sector (where we expect results), a price is put on safety all the time. Why do so many farmers and ranchers die on the job? Because they can’t afford the delay or equipment for safety. Why do so many commercial fishermen die on the job? Because there’s no amount of money that will buy safety on the high seas in bad weather. Same deal for lumberjacks, heavy equipment operators, power transmission linemen, etc.

      We in the private sector have to deal with high risk and limited budgets all the time. No one gives us a flag-covered funeral when we snuff it on the job. No one is going to give us a lavish death benefit on the public dime. Nope, the only thing that our survivors are going to hear is a knock on the door from the IRS, expecting to collect the inheritance tax on our estate if we’ve done well.

      • Haha. This was by far the very best post within the comments section of this article… and so true! I’ve already copied and archived it for future use later.

      • I am a Foundry Engineer and it can be a very dangerous and dirty place to work. I do not get any lauds and honors. I think your post is really true about over glorification of the police and military. Not all people in the military are SEALS, most are in a logistical support role. Yes, the private sector does work on a human life injury cost benefit basis.

  15. A bit more for JWM:

    Membership of the Gestapo
    In 1933, there was no purge of the German police forces.[25] The vast majority of Gestapo officers came from the police forces of the Weimar Republic, members of the SS, the SA, and the NSDAP also joined the Gestapo.[26] In 1939, only 3,000 out of the total of 20,000 Gestapo men held SS ranks, and in most cases, these were honorary.[27] One man who served in the Prussian Gestapo in 1933 recalled that most of his co-workers “were by no means Nazis. For the most part they were young professional civil service officers…”[27] The Nazis valued police competence more than politics, so in general in 1933, almost all of the men who served in the various state police forces under the Weimar Republic stayed on in their jobs.[28] In Würzburg, which is one of the few places in Germany where most of the Gestapo records survived, every member of the Gestapo was a career policeman or had a police background.[29] The Canadian historian Robert Gellately wrote that most Gestapo men were not Nazis, but at the same time were not opposed to the Nazi regime, which they were willing to serve, in whatever task they were called upon to perform.[29]

    For the above wiki article
    Policing is not the same as being in a war zone.

  16. OK RF. I am the eternal cop supporter but you do have me thinking. Yes it’s a disturbing trend. Ex-military are being hired across the country because they have the defined skills. So why are the skill requirements the same in Pocatello, Pascagoula and Sheboygan? The concerning part is nationwide the PD’s are gearing up for serious trouble and the trouble is going to come from within their own communities. So with whom do they plan to engage and why?

  17. I’m not a fan of the militarization of the PDs…but, to make such a gross generalization that troops who become cops are itching to get kitted up and get their fight on is just pure BS. The guys/gals that serve, joined for a variety of reasons…service, family, school money, lack of options, broke up with girlfriend/boyfriend…you name it…they are a cross section of the best and worst the country has to offer and everything in between. And when they get out, some become cops, some go be EMTs, game wardens, firemen, air traffic controllers…lawyers, doctors, non-profit volunteers…moms and dads…and they don’t feel the need to go all operator…

    Do some bring the operator mentality with them…sure, just like some Chipotle Commandos do…

    This generalization is BS and insulting.

    • I think the catch phrase to your post is ” some”…and from my experience, “some” is always enough to make things either go really good.. or really bad.. My bet is the later, but only because the majority of the country is seeing it that way too.. don’t forget, that police, in their quest to fight crime and catch criminals, is only focusing on 1% or less of the total population, yet the other 99% are subjected to the training, and the suspicion…. thus changing public opinion, and adding public distrust of the police.

      • Some is not all, nor is it most, or majority. Vets join the PD for the same reason civilians do…because they want to. They’ve become police officers for years…

        I’ve spent a fair amount of time around military and LEOs. In my opinion, the vets tend to be pretty level headed LEOs.

  18. The way I see it, the only way to clip these cowboys spurs is to refrain from funding them in this way..Initiatives to clip funding for the militarization of the police needs to be implemented.. Here in WA state, in my neck of the woods, we have a ” safety tax” that voters will be voting on in Aug, it essentially raises the sales tax to further fun police.. voting NO means no gas for the MRAP im hoping people get it.. and vote that way, the train they parked inthe park for the kids to play on needs an MRAP to keep it company.

    • They get these MRAPs for 500 dollars or so (or was it 1500?) through the military. Your taxes at work.
      States have no say in the matter of funding.

      • they may get the MRAP for chump change, But you can bet it’s local money that keeps it in service,.. no funding.. no gas, no insurance, no nothin…. the feds aint gonna finance drills, and training.

        • Don’t forget the government purchase order to the manufacturer when the MRAP was built. I love paying half a million per truck. After all – what better use of my tax dollars – right?

  19. What do the LEOs here have to say about us vs them mentality?
    I know most cops aren’t bad people but it’s kinda hard to be a friendly neighborhood cop behind an armored car and a megaphone.

  21. Look at the numbers of vets that went into law enforcement after Nam. And after WWII and Korea.

  23. I like that you’ve kept the theme of “blame the operator, not the tool” theme. Like you, I’m not terribly worried about the tools, just the same as I’m not worried about the tools being used by bag guys to hurt good guys.

    The tools, in this case armored vehicles, can be dealt with.

    What worries me is the mentality of the PDs that are getting these damn things, and the culture and the mindset that drives some cops to want to use them inappropriately.

  24. You guys are looking at this all wrong.

    These guys are your local guys. They live in your town, or nearby. They take orders from the Mayor or the Sheriff, people you elect, who also live in your town. They are not Federal officers, They don’t take orders from the Secretary of Defense, US Attorney General, or President Obama. In fact, as State officers, they don’t answer to the Feds at all. This is decentralization of power.

    In respect to Idaho, or any other place where Andy and Barny should be – its more complex than that. A place like Pocatello has all kinds of problems you wouldn’t think of in rural America, and everyone is armed. People go off the rocker – and they go to the cops to commit suicide. Deal is they want to take a few cops with them on the way out. Wouldn’t you want a big bullet proof truck if you had to deal with that? Never mind the meth labs, hate groups, angry-shooting-my-neighbors-will-solve-all-my-problems nutcases. Those deputies and officers do a pretty good job keeping this under control.

    Do not think that Homeland Security, Justice Department, Treasury Department, the Army, Navy Seals, or SF soldiers are your first line of defense against bad-foreign-actors of any time at home. Since September 11 2001 local police have fought the war on terrorism on domestic soil. They guys that defuse bombs are all local officers. The guys that deal with anthrax, dirty bombs, are all local officers. The guys who put down suicide bombers in the US are all local officers. Don’t say that stuff doesn’t happen, it has lots. We have done a pretty good job of not sensationalizing it.

    Soldiers fight wars over seas to project the power of the United States. Their fire tactics are centered on artillery and air superiority. Recently, that had to change. Those door to door, dynamic entry and urban warfare tactics you saw in Iraq and Afghanistan came from domestic US police operations – not the other way around. The modern US soldiers in urban combat tactics, techniques and procedures were born in domestic SWAT operations. Police operations is much more complex, demanding, and requires critical decisions made at a much lower level than military operations.

    BTW: the big-armored truck came first from police swat operations. It was then adopted into the military – where it was massed produced, modified, improved, and is not readily available for local agencies at government surplus.

    And a final note: Your local officers have wives, kids, family and at the end of the day, and although their job is different than most of yours (for those of you who have jobs) like anyone else who works for a living, they have a right to go home. So yeah, way to go Pocatello. Good job on re-utilizing something we paid for, that would otherwise become scrap metal.

    • Sorry you are looking at it wrong. I will not be alright with officers morphing to operators. No matter what you tell me. If you honestly think these new toys won’t be used against patriots then you need to wake up. “but Bundy had IED’s”. There I just read your mind.

    • Totally bogus post. Pocatello has had one murder a year since forever. It’s more peaceful than El Mac’s bathroom.

      • @Ralph, you do know about bathrooms I’ll bet. Spend your play time in there don’t ya?

    • No one is forced to be a law enforcement officer. It’s a choice. And because it’s a choice, there is some understanding of the risks and rewards. Additionally, law enforcement is not forced to continue this line of work if they feel the job is too dangerous, especially in consideration of being able to “go home at night”.

      As far as how career mortality stacks up annually, here’s a non-definitive list.

      1. Fishermen 116 out of every 100,000
      2. Airplane pilots and flight engineers 70.6 every of 100,000
      3. Farmers and ranchers 41.4 of every 100,000
      4. Mining machine operators 38.7 of every 100,000
      5. Roofers 32.4 of every 100,000
      6. Sanitation workers 29.8 of every 100,000
      7. Truck drivers and delivery workers 21.8 of every 100,000
      8. Industrial machine workers 20.3 of every 100,000
      9. Police officers 18.0 every 100,000 cops will lose their lives each year

      If you fear for your life while on the job or feel the odds of getting home at night are unacceptable, please consider a career that better suits your expectations. I will certainly think no less of you. You do have a choice.

    • And a final note: Your local officers have wives, kids, family and at the end of the day, and although their job is different than most of yours (for those of you who have jobs) like anyone else who works for a living, they have a right to go home. So yeah, way to go Pocatello. Good job on re-utilizing something we paid for, that would otherwise become scrap metal.

      We all have families – so lets take that common denominator out.

      We paid for? We as in the taxpayer right? A half a million per MRAP. But yea sure – that was a good buy.

    • I was thinking they might make nice, climate-controlled, self-propelled bear/hogproof deer blinds. Cabelas or Bass Pro got these, yet?

  25. Combat veteran here. Hiring vets isn’t the issue. Training and funding are the problem and the solution. Cops, just like soldiers, do what they are trained to do. Train them to respect the constitution and the rights of the people and that’s what they’ll do. Maybe not all of them, but a vast majority. The other thing is teaching cops that their main job isn’t to get home safe at the end of their shift. Their job (as i see it) is to protect the citizens of their community and to enforce the law within the confines of the constitution. If doing that means sacrificing their lives, so be it. If they want a job where they get home safe every night, they should go be a fvcking librarian. The other side of the coin is funding. Everything from SUV’s to MRAP’s and SWAT teams to flashbangs. Pay for less Hoorah and more patrol officers with sidearms and shotguns riding around in cruisers and you’ll have a lot less wanna be operators kicking in the wrong door and a lot safer community.

    • I agree. My uncle was a deputy sheriff and was a B-26 and A-26 combat pilot in WWII. He did fine on the force. Quite frankly, I knew a lot of combat vets from WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam; and for most the last thing they wanted was a militarized anything.

  26. When the howls of protest get loudest, you know damn well you’re hitting close to home. Shining a bright light on corruption is the best purpose of journalism. Keep it up, Robert.

    As some of the veteran officers have pointed out in other threads, the employment of former military personnel in police departments is having a marked influence on police culture. I won’t go so far as to agree that these new hires are necessarily combat veterans because the vast majority of ex-military were in support roles and not getting shot at. That said, when former soldiers decide their in-country military roles are superior to the traditional police roles of their more veteran colleagues, both they and us have a serious problem.

    Free societies don’t fare well when the police start defining their fellow citizens as “civilians” and start seeing themselves as ever-on-guard “watchers”, always mistrustful and standing apart from their own people. Nonetheless, this is what happens when you have a new generation of police officers who directly transfer their military experience and values into their police work. With this happening, is it any wonder that we’re observing an increasingly militarized police?

    Why this is happening is an interesting question. Just being ex-military does not automatically imply an inability to separate one set of roles from another. But if police training does not specifically focus on delineating these differences and subsequent police doctrine and management doesn’t emphasize these differences, it is no wonder we’re observing increasingly militarized police practices. As our military downsizes, more and more ex-soldiers, combat experienced or otherwise, are going to show up in police work and, unless police departments begin reforming themselves, we’re going to see increasing examples of excess, militarization, and, ultimately, corruption. If that happens our country is likely to see a relationship between citizen and police emerge that we’ve never before experienced. That won’t be a good thing.

    • The problem:

      ” . . .A Springfield, Illinois sheriff who just got to whip out his MRAP for the first time in a “standoff” with a man in a trailer dismissed questions about militarization say, “You know, militarization of local law enforcement is something politicians need to worry about, not at our level. We’re worried about protection, safety and security of the people in the county. . .”

  27. It’s a screening and training thing. Current recruits are either veterans who miss the action because they didn’t get enough, veterans who never did Jack so this is their chance to be an “operator”, or lastly dudes who never got to be in charge or do something fun/exciting military. They al watch the wire and the shield and think that’s how it is. Being the policeman is about knowing your neighborhood. The wire actually did a good job of pointing out this fact later in the series.

  28. Surprise, surprise, surprise.
    ‘Alaskan Patriot’s’ last reply to me (21:24) showed up without a ‘reply’ link at the end of his post- so here’s my reply.. wherever it ends up:

    “Yes. Free. Whether you choose to recognize it or not, the people of The United States of America still enjoy more freedoms than anyone else, anywhere else on the planet. There’s a reason that the United States is the number one destination for people to emigrate to.”

    Free?
    The War on Drugs.. the War On Terror.. the NDAA.. the Patriot Act.. militarized goons at virtually every level of government bureaucracy… the highest incarcaration rate of ANY country throughout known history.. asset forfeiture.. highway robbery… dozens of SWAT raids occuring on a daily basis… thousands upon thousands of laws and regulations insuring that no one can possibly make it through the corse of their day without violating several insane and arbitrary statutes.

    You, sir, obviously have not the slightest frigging clue as to what freedom actually means.
    Let’s do a little exercise. Pretend for a moment that the United States Military suddenly didn’t exist anymore. Exactly how long do you think it would be until a place like North Korea, or China, or Russia, Iraq, or Afghanistan, or possibly some combination of the aforementioned, attacked the United States?”

    Does the phrase ‘armed populace’ (AKA militia) mean anything to you?

    Most people who serve in the military, at least our military, do so because they feel it’s the right thing to do.”

    Yeah.. so what?
    That doesn’t change the fact that they are useful idiots doing the dirty work for the vermin that wish to rule over us.

    ” A country as capable as the United States has a moral and ethical obligation to help those who cannot help themselves, whether it’s to defeat an insurgent army or to provide humanitarian relief after any one of a number of disasters, natural or man-made.”

    Really?
    And your basis for this assuption is?

    “Our military is NOTHING like the TSA, NSA, ATF, or any other government agency who operates within our borders. Those agencies depend on interaction with people in the United States to stay employed; the military does not operate in the United States.”

    Which rock have you been hiding under?
    The military has been conducting joint operations with federal, state and and local law enforcement agaencies since at least the early 1990’s.

    “You clearly have very little, if any, real world knowledge of the way our military men and women think. If you did, you would change your tune drastically. They do not serve the President, the Senate, or any other government entity. They joined to serve the citizens of the United States, and citizens of other countries when and if they need it.”

    Once again… useful idiots.

    “The men and women who serve in our Armed Forces are putting their lives on the line for you, every single day. ”

    This is delusional nonsense.
    I’m sure many (if not most) military members actually believe this crap- but such is the nature of brainwashing.

    “The main purpose of our military is to protect the citizens of the United States. Their presence serves as a deterrent, and that is the most obvious way in which they protect you. But they can’t just stand around and do nothing all day, waiting for someone to attack them. Other people in other places need help too; but I guarantee most, if not all, of them would be called away to defeat whatever piece of shit attacked. But their lives are still at risk doing their other duties.”

    Son, you have obviously swallowed the state propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

    “For you to not only not appreciate their willing sacrifice, but to ridicule and openly disrespect them for it? That is the lowest you can go. Like it or not, this country NEEDS our military. We would not exist without it.”

    Ah, well… as the old saying goes:
    You can lead a horse to water… but you can’t make him think.

    • Yeah it would seem like a great idea until the PLA hits the beach and invades America. Sure, we’d fight them off. We would win eventually- after about 3 million Americans have died…. You talk allot of talk but no nothing of what war on your own home soil is like.

      • The pla invading america? How many times did they throw you at the wall?

        The issue is that this vet seems to think that hes back in iraq, please tell me what exactly that this will be used for? In a small peaceful little town? Cops deserve the scorn they get, whether its pumping lead into fido, no knocking the wrong house and shooting the homeowners, or shooting a random truck over 100 times, throwing flash bangs in baby cribs, shooting at a suspect 30 times and hitting 9 innocents, stapling their cheek and demanding their pension, fighting against anti gun bills untill they get a carve out, causing hit and run collisions, hundreds of negligent discharges, sometimes killing other people, or putting people in choke holds and killing them

        Tell me, why do you like cops so much?

        Same question elmac and alaskanpatriot

        • I’m glad I made you so mad. You totally missed my point, this punk burrow owl who probably couldn’t even pick up a 50lb ruck is trying to say that we don’t even need a military. Regardless of your position on Iraq Would you argue that? Because according to his all godlike farming abilities he would be able to fend off an onslaught of tanks with his combine. And I wonder if his farm uses a crap ton of illegal immigrants to do all the real work like half the farms in this country do.

      • I am sure the PLA will invade any minute now since they really have no decent amphibious capability. I doubt if their lord and master Wal-Mart, and other cheap labor seeking corporations would be very pleased either.

    • Burrow, keep in mind the military is an extension of the powers that be. At the same time it is dangerously naïve to think the country doesn’t need a military. Even the founding fathers had this foresight. We are now seeing the powers that be bypass the Posse Comitatus Act by militarizing the police.

  29. When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When you’re a combat vet, all criminals may look like enemy combatants.
    Complete horseshit any cop using that is lying.
    Believe it or not us conbat veterans arent retarded we dont see criminals as combatants.
    I despise police militarization but your constant belittling and generilizations about combat veterans (see wield the shield article on the Marine corps) is disgusting. Im not looking to be called a hero or instantly earn respect just because I am a combat vet. But the ignorance here is no different than the anti gun politicians saying things like “Ghostguns.” and “The shoulder thing that goes up”

    • Agreed. And I would hope nobody here would fall into the trap of scapegoating combat veterans simply because they’re combat veterans. That’s a cheap shot anyway you look at it. However, after previous wars, when returning veterans joined police forces their integration into traditional police roles was more successful than what appears to be happening now. Even in the 60’s cops were still cops, despite all the name calling. Now something’s changed.

    • ” … we dont see criminals as combatants.”

      That’s not what we are concerned about. We are concerned about the “us versus them” mentality that so many LEO have with all citizens. We see the results of such an attitude all across the country every day – innocent law-abiding citizens that are murdered, beaten, and robbed by the LEOs. And they usually are able to do it with impunity as the “Brotherhood” helps cover it and excuse the offending officers from Justice.

      Where does this attitude come from? Maybe Brotherhood of Steel can tell us. Or maybe one of the other brotherhood veterans. Or maybe one of the LEO brotherhood commenting here.

      I’ve seen it in action here in my small American town. My own son was ripped off his front steps and thrown to the ground by four of our local Police. They were giving him the usual “Stop resisting!” spiel (he wasn’t) as they massaged his kidneys with their knees, gave him the elbow tendon and tissue elasticity test, and of course, the obligated neck vertebra stress test. Thankfully their fun and games came to an end when the neighbor and his wife came out with the camera.

      My son’s crime? Well, there wasn’t one … a written one anyway. They were at his house for “Suspicion of careless driving.” He had driven up an Alley Nazi’s alley at over 4 MPH and the Alley Nazi called the police. No harm, no damages, no speeding. Just some old wind-bag’s hurt feelings. What got my son thrown on his face and beat up was his refusal to answer questions the police put to him. And his insistence of getting his coat from the house as it was quite cold outside.

      Yeah, that was all worth a beating. Yeah, some of the cops were Iraq vets.

      The last good cop was probably Serpico. Yes, he paid dearly for being a good cop. But, If you LEO reading this aren’t actively holding your bad brothers accountable for their crimes and f%#k-ups, insisting to your chiefs and sheriffs that the bad get held accountable and thrown out of your departments, then you aren’t good cops. That’s why our LEO departments are going to hell in a hand-basket … and why we hate you.

  30. If I remember correctly, the ACLU report found something like around 65℅ of the “sorties” these get rolled out for are drug-related, the vast majority of them either no drugs or weapons are found to be present at scene.

  31. I’m a combat vet and I totally agree with the sentiment of this article. Policing is a dangerous job, as in -it’s inherently dangerous, that’s why it’s called service, we are giving a piece of ourselves back to the people of the US and our communities. I personally think MRAPS for domestic policing is a misapplication of tax dollars, even if they are over stock. Police have the right to protect themselves, I get nervous when SWAT begins procuring MRAPS because it’s not like there is a militia with the funding to procure MRAPS. They will surely be very effective at stopping rifle fire, they’ll also be really effective if they are ever misused against citizens of the United States. I guess they don’t have any more lethal potential than the old armor vehicles that rural swat teams use. More concerned that they employee them lawfully and constitutionally rather than the fact that they have them. Troubling to think about.

  33. Seriously?

    Nice attack on veterans that stepped up when most of the nation decided to step into the Apple Store. Having experience in life and death situations matters more than learning about community oriented policing from a text book. They’ve shown how they’ll react when the time comes, unlike untested, poorly trained, and scared civilians which more than likely never had to handle any serious confrontation in their lives let alone make a quick decision which consequences under stress.

    GFY

    • That’s completely uncalled for, regardless of one’s stance on this issue.

      • I agree. “Let’s hope something really bad happens to him because his opinion differs from mine.”

        Ridiculous.

    • Come on man! Don’t give an anarchist another reason to feel like a martyr. Feeling like a victim will give this guy a chubby ; )

      Due to the fact that most people ignore anarchists or treat them as a novelty, our revolutionary heroes tend to be bitter individuals. Their only joy in life appears to be moralizing and guilt-tripping. This is their primary recruitment strategy. After they make you feel like shit, then they lay the utopian scenarios on you and hope you won’t notice the gaping flaws.

      All of this works best on college kids who are just finding out that the world is unfair and that governments are often dishonest and dangerous (duh). People experiencing a lot of frustration towards state and/or capitalist institutions are also open to their influence. Trust me on this one. I briefly wrote for an anarchist website, though I never identified as one (I did–and probably still do–have strong Left-Libertarian leanings). Animosity clouds the mind, so I almost bought into their black and white thinking for awhile. As the anger faded, so did my brief interest in anarchism.

      Wrapping up, other than the campus, the only place you usually find these folks is on-line. They are a slim minority that thinks everyone else is insane. That’s why they don’t win too many friends. Well that and their theory is full of holes.

    • @ g00djake:

      Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say,
      ‘What should be the reward of such sacrifices?’ Bid us and our posterity
      bow the knee, supplicate the friendship, and plough, and sow, and reap,
      to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war
      to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love
      wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the
      animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your
      counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
      chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our
      countrymen.”

      – Samuel Adams,

  35. I’m a USMC veteran and an active LEO. Small towns don’t need MRAPs. I frankly don’t give a sh!t if they give LEO / retired vets “good vibrations” or not. I thank veterans for their service, but that doesn’t make one to celebrate wasting taxpayer money or the militarization of police.

  36. There are zero valid reasons for any local/state police force to have MRAP’s at their disposal. The funds would be much better spent on additional training for LEO’s. Yeah, MRAP’s are cool, but they’re also tools. Where does it end, are cops going to be tooling up with Browning M2’s and TOW missiles next?

  37. First, “Thank you for your service, ladies and gentlemen but . . .” sounds as disingenuous as “I support the Second Amendment, but…”

    Second, “When you’re a combat vet, all criminals may look like enemy combatants” sounds a lot like “When you’re a combat vet, you may have PTSD, so no ‘assault rifle’ for you.” And, no, you’re not off the hook with your CYA insertion of “may”, any more than Feinstein was.

    Militarization of the police is a problem and an MRAP in B.F.E., Idaho is but one manifestation of it. That problem is one of policy, however, not personnel. To make such sweeping and offensive generalizations against veterans, the VAST majority of whom have never even seen either an enemy combatant nor a minute of direct action ground combat in their entire careers, is an affront unheard of from any but the most vicious-minded of gun grabbers.

    There is no elevated cause for concern in veterans, regardless whether combat experienced, becoming police officers than there is for those same men and women becoming private firearm owners or…gasp!…concealed carriers.

    You laid a serious egg here, TTAG, and owe your readers and our veterans a, shall we say, clarification?

    • ^^^^^^^ these are good points. And not all combat infantrymen who move to law enforcement think law enforcement is a job that is the same as being an infantryman.

  38. I’m guessing most people can agree that small towns are about as likely to need an MRAP as much as down town LA needs a combine harvester, and I can understand how a militant mindset among our nation’s LE officers would be a bad thing, but under what circumstances WOULD it be appropriate to procure an MRAP? Are there other police vehicles that could do their job just as effectively or are there actual regions of America where one of these might actually need to be deployed? New to the idea so just thought if ask.

  39. Sorry, I KNOW this is gonna offend some people, but like many others, I am so tired if hearing the whining about officer safety. And yes, the whining from military vets. Yes I was in the Marine Corps, to answer that question first. There is no draft for military or LE. You got what you wanted. Nobody asked you to do it. In the case of the military vets, I know some of you folks were kids right out of High school. You were recruited. But you made a choice. Volunteering to do something is fine. Expecting to be treated as special because of it is foolish. Actively persueing a career, then crying about the dangers of the job is just attention seeking. Look up the OSHA numbers for people killed or injured on specific jobs. Is there an oil field worker memorial in D.C? Or a coal miner shrine? There damn should be. How about when some convenience store cashier gets killed working the overnight in some rat hole ‘hood gets killed? How many times do you hear or read comments like “he/she knew the risks but they needed the money…or “he shoulda known better”? Worst part is that in many cases that person was unarmed and defensless because of laws enacted based partially at times on LEO safety. And for all you folks that get red in the face when someone says this country isnt all that free…wake up! People are constantly in here ranting about 2A rights. Well the reason the gov’t has the ability to enforce those laws are a result of all the OTHER freedoms we’ve list. Taxation being the main one. Thats the only way they can keep growing the LE community..taking your hard earned money to hire train and over-equip more cops. Of course they arent going to hire the brightest folks who may ask “Hey why do we need armored vehicles” or question anything at all. Just follow orders and youll get your pension which is funded by more tax dollars taken from the “free-est” people in the world. You know, the ones you issue bogus tickets to during random “safety” spot checks. Because all the really free countries always had those.

  40. The Idaho officer is exactly right, if you need to rescue a downed officer this is what you’d want. Would you prefer we walk up in our dress uniform? Should we go back to using a revolver or better what about a cap and ball? Should we use horses or just walk? Be realistic, there has been a need for armored support for law enforcement since the thompson and bar were available.

    • “Would you prefer we walk up in our dress uniform? Should we go back to using a revolver or better what about a cap and ball? Should we use horses or just walk? ”

      No.
      I’d rather see you thieving vermin step out of your government clown suits and try to make a truly honest living. Fat chance though. Chances are, the vast majority of you would still end up suckling off of the public teat in one way or another.

  41. Are police departments having MRAPs really a big deal? I can understand concern over police having access to drones because those can be abused highly to spy on people in all manner of ways that they should not. But MRAPSs are more just to give police a way to stay protected when moving up to a building with very dangerous people inside. At worst, police might drive the MRAP for things that it isn’t really needed, but it’s not going to make much difference to the people inside. If a SWAT team wrongly busts into someone’s home, whether they have an MRAP outside or not I don’t think will make much of a difference.

    • @Kyle, please don’t introduce logic and reason into the argument. The infowarriors will get restless and wet themselves.

    • Are police departments having MRAPs really a big deal? I can understand concern over police having access to drones because those can be abused highly to spy on people in all manner of ways that they should not. But MRAPSs are more just to give police a way to stay protected when moving up to a building with very dangerous people inside. At worst, police might drive the MRAP for things that it isn’t really needed, but it’s not going to make much difference to the people inside. If a SWAT team wrongly busts into someone’s home, whether they have an MRAP outside or not I don’t think will make much of a difference.

      1) Are police departments having MRAPs really a big deal? At a half million dollars each? Yes. I don’t want to pay for that crap. The MRAP’s should be hosed down with cosmoline inside of a military warehouse until they are needed. Selling half million dollar equipment (on my dime) for $1000 dollars each to LEO’s means that the Military will make new contracts for more machinery again later at another half million each. This is a colossal waste of taxpayer’s dollars.

      2) If a SWAT team wrongly busts into someone’s home, whether they have an MRAP outside or not I don’t think will make much of a difference.
      If the swat team having an MRAP outside doesn’t make much of a difference – how about they just go ahead and not have a MRAP outside.

      3) But MRAPSs are more just to give police a way to stay protected when moving up to a building with very dangerous people inside.
      At half a million each? Sure. As long as those cops go home safely. Absolutely. The rest of us in private industry (with higher rates for fatalities) will continue to work hard and pay for their well earned MRAP entertainment.

      Additional educational reading:
      http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/robert-farago/annals-police-militarization-cops-get-bad-reps-mraps/#comment-1903331

      http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/robert-farago/annals-police-militarization-cops-get-bad-reps-mraps/#comment-1903442

    • “1) Are police departments having MRAPs really a big deal?”

      No, not at all.

      Although I read a lot of people here are veterans, I don’t read there are many Law Enforcement. Clearly the people in this discussion know very little about LE.

      You can’t think of these things as half a million dollars each. You have to put them in the perspective of hand me down trucks from the military; and cosmoline or not, they won’t be used again. because that is just the way the DoD rolls (or the way the current president sees it).

      No one complained they were too expensive when they were sent to protect soldiers from roadside IEDs and ambushes.

      But then the general consensus on this list is apparently soldiers lives are more valuable than cops.

      • In the fog of war and the DoD’s cooked books, it was difficult at the time of these machines’ actual deployment in the Iraq War to assess their utility and cost effectiveness. However, in the years since, with more data available and a less chaotic environment, the assessment of MRAPs in battle has become a very hotly debated topic in defense circles. Type in something like “MRAP worth the price” in google for a primer on the debate.

        Civilian use of these weapons of war, particularly in a decidedly non-chaotic, non-war-torn place like Idaho, mandates deliberate and sober-minded reflection which local law enforcement officials, unlike military commanders, have the luxury of entertaining. If serious professionals in the field can debate the cost effectiveness of these vehicles in war zones, then certainly there’s room for debate in the context of domestic deployments.

    • I suppose you also enjoy paying for all the illegal immigrants health care and pay check on burrow owls farm.

  43. There’s a difference between using former military hardware in law enforcement and using former military people in law enforcement. Hardware can’t change what it is our what it does, people are much more versatile. If soldiers can come back and train to be project managers or firefighters or whatnot without bringing excessive force into those jobs, then they can do the same in police work.

    The problem, as always, is accountability. Get that right, and the training and tactics will fall in line.

  44. I’m entertained by you sky is falling people…don’t you realize that you sound EXCATLY like the anti-gunners? “Why do they NEED those”? Oh my gosh, cops with big scary trucks! There will be bloodshed! We need to be terrified!

    Seriously people, it’s the same way we are treated by the gun grabbers…stop and think about it.

  45. It’s a bit simplistic to write off veterans as simply going into attack mode. Much has been made of the trend of police departments adopting military style tactics and equipment. But what often goes under the radar is the opposite is also occurring. Over a decade of fighting unconventional war has led to an emphasis on COIN. It’s no longer a case of what a former SNCO I once knew referred to as “kicking in doors and shooting people in the face,” there’s a much greater emphasis on building relationships with indigenous populations. There’s a lot of cross over in principles with community policing.

  47. Got to love the badge bunnies who come running to knock every post involving cops as something it isnt.

    This blind love of an institution, any institution be it cops, military, clergy, Amurica!, whatever is ridiculous. We’ve moved past the middle-ages here people. Time to let go of collectivist fiction like patriotism, nation states and warrior worship. Or don’t. I don’t care. It’s your life. Just keep your nonsense in your yard.

    • So is your solution some sort of anarchist utopia? Please explain how that would work.

      • Given your Mad Max comment above I don’t really want to waste my time trying.
        It is whatever you think it is and I’m sure it’s horrible and frightening.

        • So you don’t have an answer. Thought so.

          Enjoy your illegal immigrant paradise.

        • Umm.. given his comment history, it’s a pretty safe bet that BS is way too close the bottom of the Bell Curve to have even the slightest hope of understanding the definition of ‘anarchy’.

    • “Badge Bunnies”, I love that one. I may have to borrow it from time to time. Thanks

      My other favorite was “Holster Sniffers”.

      • I first heard the term shooting IDPA with a bunch of cops. It’s their derogatory description of women who are into cops just because they’re cops. Their groupies if you will. Since then I’ve heard it in other tactical courses where cops are present and seen it peppered all over cop-centric forums online. They love their badge bunnies on or off duty. Willing or coerced.

        • Kinda reminds me of the women who will date no one else except firemen. Nothing against them, mind you, but what does it say about the women? Are they unconsciously looking to be rescued from this evil plane of existence? Emotional rescue? ??? ???

          But back to the badge bunnies; what level of suppressed sociopathy are we talking about there?

  48. @Erik one interesting thing I found while studying the eastern front this year is how German police officers were many times loyal to whoever was in charge. Weather it was the Weimar, Nazis or the allies. It didnt matter because they had a job to do. A simplification of their thought process is “just doing my job”.

    • Not just German. Among the men who rounded up Jews in occupied Holland were Dutch cops. Among the men who rounded up Jews in occupied France were French cops. The usual opponents of the French Resistance were not the Gestapo and the SD, but the French Milice–paramilitary French cops. When he was calling the shots in occupied Japan, McArthur mostly kept the same Japanese police apparatus that had operated during the war in place, because he knew they would continue to keep order no matter who was ultimately in charge. Some cops joined the French and Dutch Resistance, obviously. But for the most part, the local cops kept doing the same things they had done prior to being occupied by a foreign power plus, to some extent, additional duties imposed by that power.

  49. You know what really causes an us vs them mentality? Sweeping genrilizations about people with a similiar background.
    I can say from an infantrymans perspective the majority of us would never follow an order to act against Americans. Sure some of your die hard careerists will follow any order but those guys are few and far between.
    The majority of us become disillusioned with the upper echelon of the military and take everything they say every order every speech with a grain of salt. You wanna talk bi partisan? Marines hate every politician equally.

    • +10000000

      Yes sir. And I love to wonder, if any of this police state stuff/ door to door confiscation were to come true, I wonder who they think is going to train, lead, and support their rebellion? Washington and the continental army’s leadership was made up of all former British officers.

  50. Maybe MRAPs are not necessary, but they are a nice tool to have. In the department I work for we were able to approach a residence using our armored vehicle without getting hurt. The gunman inside was armed with an AR-15 and could have taken out several of us on the approach. He fired at the vehicle multiple times to no avail. A month later, a nearby city had another standoff with a murder suspect. They had two officers down who they could not retrieve since they were right in front of the residence where the suspect was barricaded. Again, the MRAP proved its worth when it allowed officers to approach and get in the line of fire while the wounded were evacuated. This isn’t Saving Private Ryan, it’s insane for you to expect for officers to approach these scenes in patrol cars. The only thing that is going to happen is create a more complex situation after assisting officers become casualties as well.

  51. I dont have a problem with vets being cops. Just like with non vet cops..some are good guys and some hotheads. It has nothing to do with any training. It has to do with how a person is wired.

  52. The militarization of LEOs is a result of the Feds in the 90s – ATF, FBI, DEA, etc and the Waco, Ruby Ridge, war on drugs mindsets. Not some recent phenomena. The Feds have been driving that through grants and transfers. PDs would be stupid not to apply for free stuff.

    The same goes for MRAPs. They are surplus. They were a stop gap rapid prototype program to fill a urgent need. They were meant to fill the gap between HUMVEEs and the procurement of the replacement system. They are bought and paid for. They are costing more money to maintain than to retire. That is why they are bring surplussed. While they may be bright shiny toys for now, the O&M costs are going to quickly add up and these local agencies that thought free was good will be turning them back to DOD who will demil and scrap them.

    There is no vast conspiracy. They offered up cool toys for virtually nothing..who wouldn’t take them. But like a boat or plane, they are money sucks and the novelty will soon wear off.

    • You got that right. I’m a paid shill. And you know what? being a payed shill is gooooooood. I get paid by the government to sit here and argue with your fat ass all day while I sit on my ass…. Its a wonderful life. You should look into it as employment.

      • You’re right, being a paid shill would be cool, but unfortunately your posts are borderline circus material, meaning you’re just an unpaid troll.

      • @ BoS:
        “I get paid by the government to sit here and argue with your fat ass all day while I sit on my ass…. Its a wonderful life.”

        TRANSLATION:

        You’re nothing more than an ignorant, loud-mouthed welfare queen who has nothing better to do other than hang out in mommies basement and parrot the .gov talking points while waiting for the monthly recharge to show up on your EBT card.

    • “Way too many shills….wow.”
      No kidding.
      shill=useful idiot
      Sadly, the same patterns continue to repeat themselves over and over again throughout the course of human history.

      Also, addressing your coment @ 11:47:
      I wholeheartedly agree with your first statement… as for the rest of your post, I have to say that I disagree with your premise. (Albeit for reasons that go well beyond what may be deemed appropriate to discuss in this particular forum.)

  54. I have a big problem with the trend toward militarization of police and sheriffs’ departments across the country, but I have a much bigger problem with it happening in Pocatello, under the “leadership” of Chief Scott Marchand, in particular. As has been mentioned in earlier comments, Pocatello is basically a sleepy town in the Mormon corridor; there are very few homicides, and only a slightly higher number of situations that present a serious threat to officer safety. After the FMC elemental phosphorus plant closed up shop, Pocatello miraculously lost its reputation as the meth-cooking capital of the Intermountain West literally overnight.

    Chief Marchand pines for his glory days as SWAT commander, dressing up in black pajamas and kicking in the doors of meth labs (except for when — oops! — the meth lab turned out to be the house next door). So what’s a gung-ho guy like Chief Marchand going to do with a gently-used MRAP now that he can’t count on a weekly meth raid to relieve the boredom? No matter how little the MRAP cost the department to purchase, and even ignoring the high maintenance costs, how can such military equipment be justified to any competent and *reasonable* citizen and/or tax payer? Just how many times, in the entire history of the department, has that “0200 officer-down” call gone out? We can discuss what-ifs all day long, but until we get down to real-world brass tacks it’s all just conjecture.

    What if the Hell’s Angels drove M1 Abrams tanks into downtown Pocatello tomorrow? Wouldn’t that be terrible?!? What ever would their brave police chief do to save the honest and god-fearing citizens of Pocatello from such an onslaught? We’d better get the police department equipped with Hellfire missiles strapped to the hardpoints of several surplus A-10 Warthogs (I hear you can get them real cheap since we pulled out of Iraq). And right away! I think I heard the pitter-patter of Abrams tracks just now….

    There is no reason for a police department better known for protecting and even promoting corrupt bad actors than for staving off paramilitary invasions to purchase and deploy an armored vehicle on the taxpayer dime, no matter the low cost. It is much more a matter of principled liberty than it is of expense, and I, for one, think it’s high time Chief Marchand was reminded that he serves at the pleasure of the citizenry. Maybe we could talk about the need for armored vehicles again if Marchand could finally show some day that he’s running a competent and professional department, free of at least obvious rotten apples… a department demonstrating a compliance rate with its own policies and procedures higher than the 10% estimated under oath by the chief just prior to Marchand. Even if such a day were to magically eventuate — which is unlikely to the point of near impossibility — my answer to his request would still be an unequivocal “NO! Do your job! Be a police officer!”

  56. “But I’d like to highlight the connection between the march of police militarization across America and the fact that combat veterans are filling the ranks of your local po-po like never befo’”

    Please RF, tell me how many combat vets that are straight infantry have tons of marketable skills after their term is up and are thrust into civ life. Getting on with a LE dept allows for one to continue to be in a field somewhat similar to what their mil experience is and have a comradeship with their fellow employees. While the GI Bill is a great asset, some don’t want to go back to school filled with retarded younger gen kids, and for others the hurdles just to get the VA to cover school can be a royal PITA and might be deemed not worth the trouble.

    “When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When you’re a combat vet, all criminals may look like enemy combatants.”

    Are you really retarded or just trolling? This isn’t Iwo Jima, Okinawa or Khe Sanh and current generation servicemembers are upheld to pretty stringent ROE’s in country. We can’t just start burning through belts of ammo at will and if in hindsight the situation at hand seems shady then there will be investigations and the military has no problem throwing young men under the bus, and that is something we all have in mind. So please, if you really don’t know jack shit on the matter how’s about you just sit down and stfu instead of trying to hold out this nation’s defenders as your future “oppressors”.

    • “Please RF, tell me how many combat vets that are straight infantry have tons of marketable skills after their term is up and are thrust into civ life. Getting on with a LE dept allows for one to continue to be in a field somewhat similar to what their mil experience is and have a comradeship with their fellow employees.”

      I’m reminded of those years I was in service, in the AFQE years before ASVAB, when one could get into the Air Force with a mere 40 on one of four tests. Below that, they sent you into the Army, but armed with only that 40, your chances of becoming either a Cook or a Security Policemen were pretty much guaranteed, depending on whether you had some emotional screw loose or not. Of course, after four years of “professional training”, these Einsteins were then considered ripe candidates for civilian LE employment and sure to understand the US Constitution in all its complexities. [s]

      • So some people were allowed to slip through the cracks. Please show me an example where the selection and vetting process leads to 100% satisfactory applicants, you can’t because there’s always going to be a dumbing down of the standard to a degree, it’s just a fact of life. Next time have a real rebuttal when you decide to pitch in.

        • Oh that’s cute, an elementary school yard insult how original. Like I said, maybe you should have something of real substance next time you jump in.

    • >> Please RF, tell me how many combat vets that are straight infantry have tons of marketable skills after their term is up and are thrust into civ life. Getting on with a LE dept allows for one to continue to be in a field somewhat similar to what their mil experience is and have a comradeship with their fellow employees.

      Which is precisely the problem. LE should not be treated as a field “somewhat similar to mil experience”. A soldier’s job is to kill people. A policemen job is to prevent people from being killed. They’re as far apart as may be. Confusing one for the other is what’s contributing significantly to all this mess.

      The solution to jobs for vets is, well, creating jobs for vets (government-sponsored if need be), not trying to shove them into positions which they don’t handle well.

      >> This isn’t Iwo Jima, Okinawa or Khe Sanh and current generation servicemembers are upheld to pretty stringent ROE’s in country. We can’t just start burning through belts of ammo at will

      The thing that didn’t change in the military since Iwo Jima, and that will never change for as long as there is a military, is that military does have the “us vs them” mentality, and the notion of “war on X” – where X is designated by one’s superiors. A police is not there to wage war – it’s there to maintain peace, law and order. The mentality, tactics, ROE etc are all vastly different, or should be.

      • A soldier’s job is not limited specifically to kill people, even my brothers in arms who had much tougher areas than I spent just as much if not more time rebuilding communities and trying to increase rapport with the people than they did actively engaging Taliban/muji/AQ. And even just generalizing “soldier” the majority of people in uniform today operate in support capacities, sure sometime people get pulled from their primary jobs to help pull security but the fact of the matter is that their main mission is NOT to be the manning the font lines. So really engaging in open combat while important isn’t the main focus for our guys on the ground, it’s nation and community building which shocker is a lot like the duties a LEO is supposed to perform.

        “The solution to jobs for vets is, well, creating jobs for vets (government-sponsored if need be), not trying to shove them into positions which they don’t handle well.”

        This is just outright insulting, no one is “shoving” vets into jobs, and many vets just absolutely excel in the outside world because they have better drive and a better level of maturity and responsibility than the rest of their peers. While active I was an infantryman and since I left duty I’ve worked in sales, customer support, public works, and now I’m workin as a fleet manager and every job I’d held I had zero prior experience and in some cases outlasted others in my company who had prior exp and should’ve known the job better than me. I literally don’t know a single veteran who wouldn’t be fuming at this ignorant statement.

        “The thing that didn’t change in the military since Iwo Jima, and that will never change for as long as there is a military, is that military does have the “us vs them” mentality”

        In some cases yes, Korea vets probably still hold a hatred towards Japanese, Norks, and Chinese, a lot of early OIF vets have a burning hatred for islamists/muslims because of their cowardly methods of combat. But even my generation which consists of just slightly pre-surge era, we don’t generally hold that hatred towards the entire race/religion/group of people, we just hated the cowards who wouldn’t come out to fight like men while we genuinely got along with other villagers in our AO. So overall there is no “us vs them”, it’s a “we’re here to help, but if you wanna throw down then bring it”, if you haven’t spent time in the military in a fighting unit you probably wouldn’t recognize the difference but there is one. As far as mentality, tactics, ROE’s being different, in some areas they are and in some areas they’re similar, and in others the military has more restrictions placed upon it than your local PD.

        All this effort will probably be for naught as I’m fully expecting a “nuh uuuh” and some other childish/uneducated retort. So enjoy your day and know that when you aimed for the mark, you missed it terribly.

  57. Wow people, I read most articles on this site and this is the first time I’ve ever seen comments like this.

    MOST of you are acting like 5 year old children. Just because YOU feel your opinion is right doesn’t mean it is. Everybody here is a supporter of the 2nd but a lot of you come across as 1st killers.

    GROW THE F**K UP!

    No wonder nothing can get done in this country…

  58. It’s because of these bullshit accusations that Vets can’t find jobs. You disenfranchise the 1% of America you owe your freedom to.

  59. In closing and having known and been raised by a lot of vets, I really do not see a big problem with them. There are good and bad vets, like anyone else. Most real combat vets would really prefer to not have a militarized anything.

  60. ” . . .Getting on with a LE dept allows for one to continue to be in a field somewhat similar to what their mil experience is and have a comradeship with their fellow employees.”

    And, as veteran police officers have noted in other TTAG threads, the numbers of former military veterans who are reluctant or not required to distinguish their military experiences from their roles as police officers are becoming an increasingly visible component of the nation’s police forces. That this change in the makeup of police forces is concurrent with increasing discussions of the “militarization” of the police doesn’t seem all that coincidental.

  61. Hmmm, lemme see, things are SO bad that U.S. LE/regulatory agencies MUST be upgraded to at least 11B specs & maybe even 18B, 19D, or 19K. If that’s true, then local/state & maybe even the Federal govt had best notify the public that the CONUS has become a bona fide war zone & invoke 10USC311 Sect. (b)(2) then start handing out M4s/M203 equipped M16A2s/M107s/M249s/M240s w/ their ammunition/accessories as well as M67s/M18s/Javelins. If, however, the situation’s not as dire as LE/govt officials/politicians/the press would have people believe, then equipping every local/state/Federal LE/regulatory agency in the country to imminent military invasion levels would seem unnecessary. Unless, that is, something’s been done (Jedi mind control/its tech equivalent) that would conceal the obvious signs of warfare (destroyed buildings/vehicles, bomb/shell craters, numerous unburied animal/human corpses & parts of same strewn everywhere, massive infrastructure disruption & its consequent societal effects, etc.) from the overwhelming majority of the American people & leave a select few unaffected to try & stem the tide of widespread mayhem as best they can.

    Those are the only options I can come up w/ for why local/state/Federal LE/regulatory agencies would feel the need to become para-military units, perhaps others attending here can do better.

    Cassandra (of Troy)

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