A protester holds a sign Sunday, June 28, 2020, in Seattle, where several streets are blocked off in what has been named the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest zone. Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan met with demonstrators Friday after some lay in the street or sat on barricades to thwart the city's effort to dismantle the protest zone that has drawn scorn from President Donald Trump and a lawsuit from nearby businesses. (AP Photo/Elaine Thompson)

We’ve lost count of the number of shootings that have taken place inside Seattle’s cop-free Summer of Love block party, AKA the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest zone or CHOP. CHOPanistas seem to have a propensity of gunplay and shooting and killing each other.

Last weekend’s activity — three shot, one dead — along with some legal action was enough to prompt Seattle’s Mayor Jenny Durkan to announce that she was going to negotiate with the CHOPanistas in an effort to shut down the oozing sore in the middle of the Emerald City. But it’s still there and no one really expects it to be dismantled any time soon if left up to Mayor Jenny, who’s been a big supporter of the area.

As the AP notes,

Durkan has expressed support for the protest, calling it “a peaceful expression of our community’s collective grief and their desire to build a better world.”

Early this morning, more gunfire broke out with deadly results.

From KUOW:

One man is dead and another in critical condition after a shooting early Monday morning in the Capitol Hill Organized Protest Zone.

This at least the fourth shooting in or near CHOP since Saturday, June 20.

A spokesperson for Harborview Medical Center’s Emergency Department said a private vehicle brought in the first person arrived about 3:15 a.m., and Seattle Fire Department medics brought in the second about 3:30 p.m.

It isn’t clear how many more people will have to be shot and killed before the Mayor will order that the CHOP and be taken down, allowing the city’s police to retake their abandoned precinct building. Or how many more lawsuits locals will have to file to push her to act.

What’s the over/under on the number of months before CHOP is actually torn down and order is restored?

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112 COMMENTS

  1. you can’t negotiate with murders, you incredibly gutless and stupid mayor. You have along with your equally gutless and stupid governor blood on your hands and should be arrested for accessory to manslaughter.

    • Now, hear ye! Hear ye! I am now the leader of CHAZ/CHOP and, it is with heavy heart, that I declare the Zone nul and void! Sadly, CHAZ/CHOP is no more; the experiment has ended! If you would like to continue The Revolution, please vote Biden 2020 and donate to the DNC!…. hold on, Jen Durkin is trying to tell me something…. what’s that?…… well clear them out with bull dozers….. mmmm hmmmm…. well then run them over; I don’t care, but they have to be out of there by the time this hits the news otherwise I’ll never land that V.P. spot….

      Biden/Swalwell 2020

    • Agreed. When a democratically elected government elects to abandon its citizens to the whims of a lawless mob, it forfeits any claim to legitimacy or to the protection of the law.

      Jenny Durkan and most of the city council (if not all) should be handcuffed and thrown in jail…or, since the police won’t do that job, dragged out by their heels and made into a public example. But my money is on all of them getting re-elected. That city is a festering mess of leftist progtards.

    • Absolutely right. You cannot negotiate with hoodlums and murderers. These mayors that allow the hoodlums to take over part of their cities deserve to be run out of town on a rail (after they’ve been tarred and feathered). You don’t negotiate with criminals. These mayors are nothing less than stupid to even consider such a procedure. If it weren’t for all the other people in their “enclaves”, it would serve the mayors right to be stuck in there being shot up. But there are others there who don’t want such enlaves and who believe the laws exist for a reason. They deserve some consideration as well. The mayors need to take back their cities or else get their backsides out of town and let someone serve as mayor who has some guts.

    • As far as I am concerned, if they seceded from the US and from the State, WHY is the Seattle Mayor worrying about them. ALL PUBLIC-FUNDED services [police, water, trash, etc.] should simply be cut off. If they want back in later, have them sign loyalty oaths, just as the Confederate soldiers did 100+ years ago. If not, fence them out from the rest of responsible society, and insist on passports and visas to commute.

  2. well alrighty then… Keep piling them up, pretty soon won’t have to worry about shutting it down just walk in and arrest the last one standing..

    • Still waiting to see if those 10K American Patriot bikers are still going to storm CHAZ on behalf of Seattle’s people.

      • Instead of waiting behind your computer like a gutless wonder you should be waiting in Chopland. It appears the odds are a choplander nutcase will take care of you and save the bikers some gas.

        • Golly princess Haz is one of the good guy’s…have a cookie. Calm down😏

        • Ya know, Debs…I kinda like you. You’re funny.

          I hafta go to work and, you know, support my household. If this happens in my back yard, in an area of Los Angeles County where I can reasonably form a plan to be part of a corrective effort…sure. I’ve participated in peaceful protests before (including televised ones) in which I’ve made my voice and presence known in support for our liberties.

          But CHAZ is in Seattle, like one and a half thousand miles away, so…you do the math on the gasoline bill for that trip. Besides, I don’t see you marching up to one of ‘ol Rapper Raz’s checkpoints and demanding an audience with the Warlord to bitchslap him into compliance.

          Thanks for playing, tho. Be sure to collect your door prize on the way out.

        • Debbie is the biggest doofus in this comments section. At least pwrserge made an effort to seem like he had a point and evidence.

        • Thank you, All Hail!, but note that you kept me waiting here for 25 minutes. I *do* expect a lackey to be more timely in his presentation.

          Here’s your cookie. Next time, if you tip your little hat while you’re cranking your toy organ grinder, you might get two.

    • The CHOP security team, of mostly white men with ARs and AKs, opened fire on two black 14 and 16 year old males. They shot one of the kids in the head as he tried to drive away from the CHOP security chasing them and shooting at them. They mag dumped into the white jeep they claim was stolen from the CHOP.

      The security team says the kids were doing drive-bys in the CHOP. They claimed the kids were shooting when the security team shot back. They claimed the kids were trying to ram through barriers to run people over in the CHOP. There’s a problem with that story. There appears to be no guns on the kids, no casings, no gun powder residue, no victims and the windows of the Jeep were up when the security team dumped a mag into the jeep while chasing it around the CHOP.

      The evidence on scene appears to show that a man with an AR-15 fired at the vehicle as it was driving away, then he ran up to the vehicle and fired into the right side windows before firing some rounds into the front windshield at head level. And it seems the CHOP team cleaned up the crime scene before homicide could investigate the shooting.

      What it looks like to me is two kids stole one of the CHOP’s security teams Jeeps and went on a joy ride around CHOP. Then CHOP’s security team went on the hunt and opened fire on them once they found the kids. The kids tried to escape the CHOP in the Jeep. The CHOP security kept firing and firing until the driver was dead.

      I would say this looks to be another murder by CHOP’s security team. CHOP residents claim their security team is ex military. I don’t know military guys that would behave like that. Sounds more like LARPers trying to be the police.

      When the security team was told to go home there was about 2 days of peace in terms of no shootings and no black males being killed. The other day the city came in to take down all the barricades, but they were stopped by CHOP. It looks like more barricades were put in. Then some of the CHOP security team returned to CHOP seeing it wasn’t taken down like planned. No surprise, now that the security team came back, another shooting happened within 24 hours and another black kid was killed. That’s at least 6 shootings when CHOP security is around and 5 black males shot out of 4 shootings with victims.

      Looks like the security team of white guys are the ones starting the violence. Very odd it’s only black males being shot and killed in CHOP when CHOP has very little black people there.

      Why doesn’t BLM say anything about these facts? Why do they hide the identities of these white shooters and claim it was white supremacists that shot these black people in CHOP?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u-oMwo82FY

        • I know. These white boys playing warlord are going to go to prison one day for murder. There’s a bunch of people who know them. There is a reporter named Omari that knows who these guys are but he doesn’t film their faces. Omari better stand up for his black brothers being killed by CHOP security because his soft body armor isn’t going to protect him from murderers trying to cover up their crimes in CHOP.

          If the cops are not allowed to do this…

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkY6FjqWp00

      • Don’t care anymore than I care about the excuses people make for why communism didn’t work all those times.

        CHOP or CHAZ or whatever is lawless. It can either handle it’s shit or it cannot. Spoiler alert: it cannot.

        • It’s still America and those kids were Americans. You can’t allow those communists to execute people and not be held responsible. America is supposed to be a place of justice. So, you should care.

      • And I give a shit becaaauuusssse?? It’s just another day (or night) in a shithole wanna-be third world country.. I didn’t create CHUMP, I don’t condone CHUMP and I could care less what happens in CHUMP.. As far as the 14 and 16 year old “children” who were shot? Parental responsibility comes to mind.. Were these homeless kids? What was a 14 year old doing out at that time of night? Do their parents live in CHUMP? If YOU are looking for someone to blame start at the feet of the Democrats that gave us the inner city “projects” and created the economic incentives that moved black fathers out of the home, the same people that took prayer out of the schools and made it nearly impossible for parents to discipline their children and told 11 year old kids to “go home and teach your parents, because you are smarter than them” (under normal circumstances that would be enough to get you labeled a pedophile).. Don’t want your kid shot at thee A.M. then keep his dumb ass at home and teach him NOT to do dumb shit… Why won’t BLM turn in the shooter(s) because they are using them, they need them to take the fall when the whole thing goes south so BLM can walk away with “clean” hands, that and the fact that the only black lives BLM really gives a shit about are their own…

      • Are those rhetorical questions, or do you want answers?

        Because I have answers. You’re probably not going to like those answers, but I will answer your questions if you’re actually asking them.

      • Looks like the security team of white guys are the ones starting the violence. Very odd it’s only black males being shot and killed in CHOP

        Could it be that the white people in CHUMP are NOT doing stuff to get themselves shot? Or maybe the white folks are too smart to get CAUGHT doing stuff that will get them shot… OR those ANTIFA guards are really White Supremacist racists (there are no black members in Antifa) that has infiltrated so deep into the BLM that they have been given a free pass… Or as I said before they are “useful idiots” who will be thrown under the bus to ensure safe passage for the BLM leadership… I’m sure there are definitive videos and/or photos that make identification easy enough…

  4. the only way this will stop is for marshal law to be instituted by the federal government. the mayor,the governor, the washington atty.gen. all are guilty of support for this insurrection . THERE IS NO BACKBONE IN ANY OF THEM.the people that pay taxes in washington and seattle are fed up with this communist takeover.our city council is feeding the antics fools ,they support any anti-American idiot that is for free rides on everything that the rest of seattle works hard for. TIME FOR A MAJOR CHANGE IN CITY GOVERNMENT..

    • What, exactly, is “marshal law”?

      Is that, like, some set of codes created for post WWII Europe by the lesser known cousin of George Marshall, Tom Marshal?

        • Medieval Siege warfare seems more appropriate. Surround the C-Zone. Cut off all utilities and block all cell service. Allow no one in and arrest all who leave. Sit back a watch the fun. Simple tactics that have proven effective for centuries. Requires no bloodshed unless those surrounded start it.

        • Medieval siege warfare you say? I’m in!

          Where shall I pull up the trebuchet to launch dead cows infected with anthrax inside CHAZ?

          What’s that? The tart who claims to run Seattle says I can’t? Where, exactly, is the law that says I can’t?

          If I can’t launch large rocks, dead cows and flaming pitch balls into their communist paradise, then where’s the fun in any of this?

        • “What’s that? The tart who claims to run Seattle says I can’t?”

          It’s Seattle, so I suppose a “Watery Tart” applies…

          DG is *on fire* today, has he taken up day-drinking? 🙂

      • Marshall Dillon of Dodge City?

        Or Marshall Raylen Givens of Kentucky?

        So many Marshalls …. so little time ….

      • “Marshal law” is too common… My favorite misspelling of martial law is actually… marital law. A close runner up would be maritime law.

    • Ah, but if Trump institutes martial law in even a piece of Seattle, the military is responsible for all of the governance in that area, including such mundane municipal issues as garbage collection.

      I pay taxes for a military that kills people and breaks shit. I don’t want a military that performs “nation-building,” and that’s what they would be doing if Trump declared martial law here.

      What we want is for this situation to descend into madness and chaos, and the sort of chaos and mayhem that the press cannot easily ignore. That would discredit the memes and wet dreams of leftists all over the country.

      • Agreed, Dyspeptic. Seattle is an experiment. We all need to see how it plays out so that voters can make an informed choice on support for this kind of Communist “utopia” or a civilized society based upon some semblance of law and order.

      • How is it nation building when all of Seattle is part of the good old USA and was illegally taken and occupied by criminal elements? I would love to see how many of these anarchists are illegals and not US citizens.

      • Agreed. This is what the Seattle politicians want- for someone else to do their job for them and then take all the blame.

        Screw em. If they want help, let them ask for it. In public.

      • All governance in that area includes arresting people and then finding something for them to do – like cleaning up trash and fixing all the damage…….

    • Um … it’s “martial law.” As in, rule by the military, derived from Mars, the Roman god of war.

  5. Undoubtedly more white nationalist terrorism. Couldn’t possibly be one of the peaceful protesters. They were to busy shooting, smoking, selling and snorting dope to get violent. Just ask mayor dipshit.

    • Those white nationalists are getting tricky. This time, they disguised themselves as 16-year-old and 14-year-old black boys. The truth will come out when the 16-year-old is autopsied and proven to have been a 30-year-old member of the Aryan Brotherhood.

  6. I wonder what the annualized murder rate would work out to be for CHAZ/CHOP/whatever. There can’t be very many people in it.

      • Um, their Math is off by several orders of magnitude. How many people were murdered so far in CHOP/CHAZ? I believe it is two, yes? Two murder victims in a population of 200 people — equally important over the course of one month. (That is critical since per-capita murder rates are over the course of an entire year.)

        So, extrapolating the current data for CHOP/CHAZ, they are on track to produce 24 murder victims over a 12 month period. (Two murder victims per month x 12 months == 24 murder victims per year.) And now for their annual per-capita murder rate: 24 murders per 200 people equates to 12,000 murders per 100,000 people. That annual per capita murder rate is a paltry 199 times higher than Venezuela’s annual per-capita murder rate.

        This, ladies and gentlemen, is the “utopia” that Progressives are desperately hoping to facilitate/realize across our entire nation. I will take a hard pass on an annual per-capita murder rate of 12,000 murders per 100,000 population.

        Note: CHOP/CHAZ has actually only existed for something like 22 days, not one month. If they have any more murders before their one-month anniversary, their annual per-capita murder rate will be significantly higher.

        • “How many people were murdered so far in CHOP/CHAZ? I believe it is two, yes?”

          Counting the newest one, that make’s 3 (and counting…)

        • Yeah, methinks Geoff is correct. But don’t worry, it’ll soon be four. And that’s just amongst themselves. No entry has yet been attempted to retake the area.

        • Oh wow, there has been three murders in CHOP/CHAZ: that means they are on track for an annual murder rate of 36 per 200 residents occupiers.

          Thus, their annual per-capita murder rate is 18,000 per 100,000 people which is 300 times higher than Venezuela!

          And, as before, this data is actually only over the course of 22 days I believe. If they have any more murders before the first month has passed, they will be on track for an even higher annual per-capita murder rate.

          Of course Progressive advocates will scream and cry — blaming moderates, conservatives, and libertarians for the astronomical murder rate. And the reason that Progressives will blame moderates, conservatives, and libertarians? Because those groups did not allow a full-enough expression of the Progressive utopia: if only we had a much more extensive resourcing of their utopia, the murders would magically stop happening.

  7. Cut off electricity, water, and food. Don’t let any of them leave. Add some cameras and put it on ppv.

    • “Thunder Dome Live” – Last one standing gets to go home!!! To mix movie metafores, “I’ll buy that for a dollar.”

      • So what? The U.S. government doesn’t recognize The ICC’s authority over U.S. citizens, so we’re good to go.

  8. Good, they are going to need to fettalizer. I’m glad some of them are being good communists.

  9. Good.

    The faster the bodies pile up, the more rapes that are committed, the sooner this silliness is discredited.

    • “The faster the bodies pile up, the more rapes that are committed, the sooner this silliness is discredited.”

      Those weren’t ‘rapes’, they were merely “clumsy passes” (at knifepoint)… 🙂

    • It was two kids…

      No justice, no peace! CHOP police are criminals running the streets.

  11. I hope it keeps happening. The commie scum are killing each other off while showing the world what they’re really like.

    WIN! WIN!

  12. Don’t care. Let’em do it.
    Let CHAZ/CHOP serve as an example of what happens when these fringe lunatics who believe themselves infallible takes over.

    There is conflict coming and its naive to think otherwise.

  13. How could Durkan negotiate? Who is the leader/warlord of CHOP? Even if one if chosen and an agreement met, how can a bunch of anarchists be expected to follow it?

    • They have a council of people. They don’t want leaders. That’s why they are so unorganized. They should go back to calling it CHAZ because it was much better during those days.

      • Yea, well, that “anarcho-syndicalist commune” stuff rolls off the tongue real well during struggle sessions and film scripts, but somehow it fails to translate into actual results.

  15. I look forward to seeing transtortation companies refusing service to cities like Seattle.
    Because that is what happened to Detroit in the early 1990s. They went from over 7000 police officers down to less than 1500. The hijacking of truck loads in broad daylight was a daily occurance.

    It happened 8 or 10 times in a 24 hour period. And Portland Oregon. You are next. Only this time we all will get to watch it happen. Because everybody has a camera phone.

    But will it really matter since we are told “you have insurance”???

  16. Yet another dead CHOPanista – a pity and a terrible thing; however, putting it in perspective and comparing it to the blood bath and body count in Chicago & New York City…

    BLM? Over 60 people were shot more than 16 fatally over the weekend in Chicago. At least 20 people were shot, seven fatally, in Chicago over the 24-hour period that began around 4 p.m. Friday, June 26. One of the weekend’s fatalities was a 10-year-old girl inside a home on the Northwest Side when she was shot in the head by a stray bullet. A one-year-old boy riding in the car with his mom was also shot and killed Saturday. He and his mother were driving back from the laundromat when a car pulled up next to them and opened fire.

    A Chicago man Laroy Battle,19 allegedly shot and killed two teenagers for asking how tall he was. The victims commented,because,since Battle is quite tall,and they asked him how tall he was and they hoped to be that tall someday. Jasean Francis, 17, was shot in the back, chest and left hand. Charles Riley, 16, was shot in the back and left leg and both teenagers died. The boys got permission from their mothers to walk to the store and buy candy.

    Defund the Police?[275 retire] 11 people were shot in New York City in eight separate shooting incidents between 5:30 p.m. Saturday and 5 a.m. Sunday. There have been 59 shootings since Monday 6-22, and those resulted in a total of 81 people shot in the 59 shooting incidents; shootings surged 358 percent over what they were a year ago; there were 55 shootings June 14-20, 2020, compared to 12 for the same week in 2019.

  18. First rule: WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORIST!!!!!
    Second rule the bitch ain’t a watery tart. She’s a full blown TWATWAFFLE!!!!

  19. Evil is evil, no matter what name you put on it!

  20. At this rate Choplanders will be extinct by the new year…that’s a very good thing.

  21. “Durkan has expressed support for the protest, calling it ‘a peaceful expression of our community’s collective grief and their desire to build a better world.’”

    Agreed! That’s one way to build a better world — one dead Antifa at a time.

  22. uncommon_sense says: June 29, 2020 at 12:54

    This, … , is the “utopia” that Progressives are desperately hoping to facilitate/realize.

    __Actually, it’s just part of the FOUR PART plan: It also just happens to be part of the core theme and plan of the 2020 Democrat presidential campaign. You can thank Soros and his Marxist-Leninist comrades in Russia and China. Most remain clueless
    about the FOUR PART plan and continue to be victimized.

    1: Demoralization – Marxist-Leninist ideology has now been pumped into the soft heads of at least three generations of students. Demoralization is important because it robs the targeted population of its ability to process valid information. To take a recent example, the New York Times’ 1619 Project argued that American history actually began with the arrival of black slaves in North America and the Revolutionary War was fought by the colonists to preserve slavery. The 1619 Project is now part of some school curricula. Another word for demoralization is guilt. Americans are routinely compelled to feel guilty about their society and national history. Guilt is the most powerful force in left-wing politics and academia. People will not accept the radical expansion of punitive government power unless they feel guilty and deserving of punishment.

    2: Destabilization – The fundamentals of the targeted population’s economy, political system, and culture are attacked, while the demoralized population can not mount much of a defense. A demoralized population becomes willing to believe the worst criticisms of its own society, while learning to see defenders of that society as their enemies, while avowed enemies become natural allies. The defenders are held to strict standards, while anything goes for the most strident critics. The American Left has destabilized entire segments of modern society after demoralizing them. They see enemies everywhere, while no pro-American authority can be trusted. A destabilized population becomes obsessed with hypocrisy as the ultimate political sin. They believe the best ideas – individual liberty, sovereign rights, capitalism, even the rule of law – are presented insincerely by sinister powers who seek to exploit and manipulate them. The precious resource of goodwill disappears from society as everyone comes to believe their neighbors hate them and cannot be trusted. Demoralized people lose faith in their nation, history, and ideals; destabilized people lose faith in each other.

    3: Crisis – has the obvious benefit of panicking demoralized, destabilized people into abandoning their legal protections and constitutional ideals. During the coronavirus panic, people who brought up those ideals were treated like lunatics. The pendulum swung the other way with blinding speed during the riots. In the span of one week, the right to peaceably assembly went from a crazed defiance of common-sense lockdown rules to an urgent matter that utterly transcended the deadly pandemic. Suddenly, angry political demonstration magically cured the coronavirus, or made the projected wave of sickness and death into a purely secondary concern. The more subtle benefit of a crisis is that it tends to de-legitimize aspects of the existing system that have already been softened up by the long process of demoralization and destabilization. Those who control the organs of public communication have the power to decide which aspects of the system are supposedly indicted by the crisis. For example, the dominant media Left will go to great lengths to avoid painting the coronavirus as an indictment of the bureaucratic Big Government that grew over the past few decades, and it will not discuss the failures of left-wing mayors and governors. During the riots, the media is completely uninterested in discussing the incompetence of left-wing officials who allowed violence to rage out of control with deadly consequences. Somehow the lesson of wanton violence that killed people and destroyed countless livelihoods became “let’s get rid of the police altogether.” The threat of a crisis is essential for terrorizing the middle class into accepting a political agenda that is actively hostile to its interests, which leads to the fourth stage of subversion: the offer to make the pain and fear go away by accepting political domination.

    4: Normalization – the fourth stage of subversion – After a crisis, with a violent change of the power structure and economy, you have a so-called period of Normalization that may last indefinitely. Normalization is a cynical expression borrowed from Soviet propaganda; it also happens to be the core theme of the 2020 Democrat presidential campaign. Lockdown Forever enthusiasts, who only a few days ago were hammering out passionate arguments that American businesses must remain shuttered for weeks or months to come, and anyone who dared to question their dire warnings was a selfish monster willing to kill other people’s grandmothers to pad out their 401k accounts. In the blink of an eye, Lockdown Forever went from the vital engineers of a politically useful crisis to inconvenient obstacles for the new crisis, nationwide riots. Most of the lockdown gurus sensed this shift in the political winds and quickly trimmed their sails, hammering out new screeds that claimed protesters are probably immune to the coronavirus somehow, or even more incredibly, that another outbreak would be a small price to pay for righteous political activism: Dozens of public health and disease experts have signed an open letter in support of the nationwide anti-racism protests. “White supremacy is a lethal public health issue that predates and contributes to COVID-19,” they wrote. These are the same medical activists who were shrieking in March that the coronavirus could kill millions of Americans if lockdowns were not imposed immediately, and just a few weeks ago, left-wingers were obsessed with calculations that showed COVID-19 is exceptionally deadly to the black community. But suddenly the risk of millions of deaths, 70 percent of them purportedly likely to be black Americans, means nothing compared to the vital urgency of protesting against “white supremacy” and “systemic racism”.

    • Well, the mayor is a white woman, the people getting shot in CHOP are black males and it appears the shooters are white males. So… Maybe she is proud.

  25. Why the rush? This is Seattle. LET THEM LEARN.

    As for the zone itself, it’s not hurting the rest of the US. Much like when the Bundy bros held up in some wildlife refuge, there’s little point in trying to dig them out from their BLM\Antifa clubhouse. Monitor it and charge them for whatever crimes you can; arrest them when safe.

    Maybe once the inhabitants and owners stop virtue signalling and start publicly begging for help the police can go in and bring order back. Until then, let them stew in what they’ve created.

  27. how stupid are these people? If they want to end this mess all they have to do is to shut off the water and the electricty and those clowns will leave.

  29. They may be running low on ammo there in chump. Maybe the city should drop off a few boxes each night.

  31. Father of CHUMP shooting victim call’s for the National Guard to clear em out… No one asked him where he was while his minor son was out doing dumb shit at 3 A.M….. When DID personal responsibility become a non-thing…

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