Yesterday’s shooting in an Antioch, Tennessee church ended when 22-year-old usher Caleb Engle (above) struggled with the gunman, causing the killer’s pistol to discharge into his own chest. “After the struggle, Engle exited the sanctuary, got a gun from his vehicle and guarded the shooter until police arrived,” tennessean.com reports.
A Somali refugee named Emanuel Kidega Samson (above) began his homicidal rampage by shooting and killing 39-year-old Melanie Smith. The murder occurred in the church’s parking lot as she exited the church.
Presumably, someone inside the church would have heard the gunfire and could have prepared to defend the parishioners from the ensuing attack.
In case it’s important, Mr. Engle, the brave soul who who went hands-on with the killer, was licensed to carry a concealed weapon. What is important: as far as we know, neither Engle nor any of the people inside the church were armed at the time of the attack.
In the aftermath of the shooting, Nashville’s Police Chief promised to help any church or organization that wants to prepare a defense against a similar attack. He danced around the issue of an armed defense.
Regardless of the way this particular incident went down, the fact remains that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. (Not to coin a phrase.)
As always, the blame for this horrific crime rests squarely on the killer’s shoulders. But once again, it should have been a defensive gun use.
struggled with the gunman (above), >
Maybe should be
struggled with the gunman (below),
or just remove the second (above)… reads funny
I work for a defense contractor and we have the obligatory no weapons signs on the doors. It is our corporate policy not to allow weapons in our buildings. It is also our corporate policy not to have any plan to deal with an active shooter scenario; other than calling the cops that is.
One of the many reasons I was happy to rarely work at my company’s HQ. We have a “no weapons” policy so retarded that customers have a hard time shipping us ammunition related product samples for testing. I had to explain to our legal genius that .22LR ammunition is actually less dangerous than the gigantic rolls of Lithium battery material we get on a regular basis.
Curious – If you don’t mind, what type of business is that?
No need for specifics, just a general overall outline…
I work for a major supplier of industrial automation equipment and components. In a lot of cases, you need to test the desired process with the customer’s parts to make sure the components behave the way you expect them to. This means that over the years, I have had stuff in my lab ranging from prototype glass for unreleased cell phones to linked 40mm grenade rounds (inert in that case).
Maybe you actually work for a “surrender contractor.”
Nice work by Mr. Engle (and he’s a Packers fan – go Pack!). Did the fact that he had to retrieve his gun from his vehicle indicate that his church had a “no guns” policy? As to the idiot shooter, I hope the courts throw the book at him and give him the max penalty under law. Does Tennessee have capitol punishment?
The feds can take this over and make it into a death penalty case. Will lead to interesting theater. Black alien from Somali kills a white woman and President Trump gives him the needle. The US and UN progs will come unhinged.
Why is “refugee” a permanent thing in the US? “Refugee” would be a temporary thing until you GO HOME. No Us residency, No US job, certainly NO CITIZENSHIP. Adult male GTFO and go fix your cesspool. We’ll even give you an AR.
“Capitol punishment”. Yes, I laughed. In New Zealand, we currently have a hung Parliament, after a general election. That is, neither side has a majority, and an ageing megalomaniac with a grudge has the casting vote, and he is drawing out the process. I have offered my services if someone decides to take the term “hung Parliament” literally.
Oh, look, it’s Dylan Roof with a tan. I wonder if we’ll see the same level of outrage?
Even if he rode to the church on a confederate statue waving the Confederate battle flag, you would not hear about it.
Naw, this was the “black power” kind of racist. The left can’t burry him fast enough.
“Somali refugee” a/k/a Obama-imported-jihadist?
More likely Clinton. Billy Bob brought in a swarm in the 90s
He was what, 27 years old?
And came here in the first Clinton Administration?
Does he even remember Africa?
The attacker would have been about five or six years old when he came to the United States.
Does anyone know if the church is designated gun free?
Churches of Christ are usually highly independent of each other. To the degree that there is no central organization that dictates policy or even religious doctrine. If this particular group (which I speculate) follows that tradition, then the gun policy would be up to the local leadership. But for a group that small, I would score high odds that there was no official policy at all, and this was an atypical event that was completely unplanned for and outside the dreams of possibility.
Ideas have consequences.
The idea that we live in a completely “civilized” society is a deadly one.
It furthers the wrong ideas that we are basically “safe” and “secure” at any given time.
Now I know statistically that any one person is very unlikely to get assaulted or robbed or potentially murdered, but that precludes the fact that it *could* happen at any moment.
And Evil has the upper hand always because the person deciding to do the heinous act has already thought about it and planned it and prepared for it. So if you’re walking around thinking you’re “safe” then you haven’t done any mental or physical preparation to even be able to successfully react.
Ideas have consequences.
Spot on.
I add two facts to your analysis Punisher:
(1) While your odds of attack any given year are fairly low, your odds of attack at some point in your adult lifetime are disturbingly high — on the order of one in four depending on your particulars.
(2) While the odds of an attack on any given year are fairly low, the consequences of an attack are disturbingly high. Classic risk management therefore requires that you act proactively to reduce the magnitude of the outcome should an attack occur. That means you should be armed which greatly reduces the risk of a severe (as in severely injured, permanently disabled, or murdered) outcome from an attack.
No doubt Mr.Engle did not believe he would need his EDC at church. He made that bet and fortunately did not lose the farm on it. I’ll not criticize him too much for needing to go out to his car for his weapon (Did anyone else there have that option?), but I reckon he’ll never be without it from this day forward.
Lesson learned.
Yup, big mistake.
So, the question that remains unanswered – If the Islamic terrorist shot Mr. Engle in the chest during the struggle, why did Mr. Engle then have to retrieve his gun from his car in order to hold him for the police?
What happened to the first weapon?
A “DGU” would not have stopped this attack anyway.
An innocent person was and is still dead. A “good guy with a gun” still didn’t stop this from happening like the many of the erroneous claims people like you said.
It’s easier to run or fight back against a nutbar armed with a knife, baseball bat, section of pipe or a brick than with a gun. It’s even easier to fight back against said nutbar when a group of people can simply overpower him while armed with these same implements which have killed far less people than a firearm.
More people have died from being shot dead then being stabbed or having a bone broken.
There have been far more incidents caused by nutbars with right-wing beliefs than some random putz with a chip on his shoulder or some gangbanger trying to gain cred or some lowly drug dealer trying to peddle his crap.
No matter how hard you still deluded yourselves to think our “rights to own guns” are far better than what happens in the rest of the world. Then you are nothing but a snowflake sheeple than refuses to see reality.
These incidents do not happen on a daily basis in the rest of the world no matter who you try to twist it, It doesn’t.
Why are you pro rape?
And why are you pro-murder?
Why are you also racist, a bigot, a sexist and fascist?
Why are you pro-genocide against the american people who wish to be free and not armed slaves of your false demigod the gun lobby.
See I can turn your words around to.
Rape is a horrible thing, But incidents like that are far less of a problem than the numerous men, women and children that die everyday because people like you believe that our country is safe if we give evey, tom, dick and jill a gatling gun, flamethrower or a bangalore missile to protect us against the “evils” of a peaceful society.
Now I know why you nuts need weapons, You hate educated people and freedom. You fear the peoples rights to life, The thought of people not kowtowing to your extremist views scares you.
Since that was too much for you to handle, I’ll ask a different way.
In many of the countries and regions you cite, the rape rate is far higher than that of the United States. Take England, for example, which has a rate 600% that of the U.S.
Why is it acceptable for you to diminish the ability of a woman to protect herself from a rapist? Why is it ok for you to make it easier to rape?
Please try to form a comprehensive thought, and answer the actual question.
As Much as it would be nice to see a society with out this kind of Hate, disarming your population has never brought about the kind of Nirvana you desire! Man has Sin, no matter what you give them or take away from them they will always use what ever they have available to kill murder and destroy. All that History has taught us is disarming your population has only ever led to Tyranny or Genocide.
You Know what is funny the Second Amendment never mentions Guns!!!! And i wasn’t even about guns!!! it was about the God Given right to defense of life with whatever technology we have available to us!
And Another thing Stop using the Word Patriot like you are trying to show Support of our founding Fathers!! From what your are saying you are a Freedom Hating Comme!
I’m sorry JWT- it called you a racist and a bigot, therefore you have lost the debate. I think we all should now hand our guns over to the local constabulary to be destroyed.
I’m educated and armed, so much for your blanket statement. “DGUs are and will always be a myth.” Is out and out bullshit. People defend themselves with guns on a daily basis, they don’t make the national news however. Get out of your bubble and you might realize that.
And before you label me as some knuckle-dragging, toothless troglodyte you should know until recently I was a pro-gun control, staunch liberal…and then I was mugged by reality.
“Why are you pro rape?”
Maybe it’s the only way he can get some.
(snicker)
You’re full of poo!
And Your full of bovine excrement along with trying to troll and derail a thread.
This is supposed to be about how one again a “DGU” failed to stop another one of your anti-american gun-worshipping lunatics from causing trouble on the rest of us freedom-loving americans.
DGUs are and will always be a myth.
I’m proud to stand for america and fight against the systematic oppression of the “people of the gun”.
@ AmericanPatriotsAgainstAmericanHatingProGunners
You need to learn to spell before you come here and troll, otherwise, you’re just another laughable blowhard! Well, you’re that anyway. DGU is not a myth as you foolishly attempt to assert. Of course it won’t prevent tragedies. A gun in the hands of a good guy will usually be a response, just as a fire extinguisher doesn’t prevent fires, it’s a tool to respond. While a true DGU happens, it’s the exception rather than the rule.
Humans are violent and nothing will ever change that for as long as we walk this or any other planet. Humans are a product of our environment. For as long as we have inhabited earth, we have had weapons, be it a rock, club, or a cutting – stabbing instrument. Firearms became the replacement for close range weapons such as knives.
Here is the fact of the matter, guns aren’t going away! Human violence isn’t going away. You aren’t going to stop suicides committed with firearms. If people want to kill themselves, they are going to do it. Get over it.
To sum all this up, be gone with your idiotic rhetoric.
“I’m proud to stand for america and fight against the systematic oppression of the “people of the gun”.”
That you for standing with us against our oppression. Also, America is capitalized.
I don’t often use vitriol, but you are an idiot. I would gladly say that to your face but I am sure you rarely come out of mom’s basement.
I have multiple DGUs and arrest reports to prove them. Too bad my facts get in the way of your rhetoric.
Damn, Ms. Watt left the gate open again and one of her talking heads slipped out. Someone better round it up before it hurts itself.
You needn’t worry… as a hydra, we know what happens if she loses one of her heads…
Somebody’s missing their dog chip.
Yeeah! I love it when you show up, you recycle the same buzzwords and talking points every time and are just so lovably typical. I wonder which commenter you actually are, because my thought is that you are one of our regulars costuming and lampooning as the typical left-leaning, gun-hating, Europe-loving hoplophobe, giving the rest of us a good laugh and practice at dealing with the real hoplophobes. If you aren’t, then all the better because it proves that such a stereotype exists. God bless you AmericanPatriotsAgainstAmericanHatingProGunners! God bless you!
“Bless your heart.” is what we say about people like concerned in “flyover country”.
Born and raised down South, sian. Bless your heart is definitely an appropriate response!
This reply took me a bit, I had to stop laughing first.
Citations Please. Specifically to your claim:
“There have been far more incidents caused by nutbars with right-wing beliefs than some random putz with a chip on his shoulder or some gangbanger”
This is such BS I can’t even. I just want to hear what you base this on.
You want to make a point, then make your point. I am all ears. Think you can manage without a personal attack?
You still think that thousands of people are murdered in mass shootings on a daily basis and that New Vermont is a state. Why should anything you say hold any weight?
Even the most basic (FBI SUPPORTED) data shows that DGUs take place at a rate between 10 and 100 times that of firearm assaults.
We get it, you hate freedom because it is scary.
Take your shit elsewhere.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
I’ve been waiting and hoping for someone to show so clearly, with such eloquence and passion, that the People of the Gun are absolutely correct to be concerned about the mindset and intent of the Progressive Left.
By the way, you’re right in a way, that an innocent woman (although being white how innocent can she really be, amiright?) could well still be dead even had she been armed.
Simple fact is, we don’t know how long the guy took to draw, aim and fire. At least I will admit I don’t, since I wasn’t there. So I don’t know whether she or someone else would have had time to do anything.
That being said, without being armed there was no chance at all, unless one puts one’s faith in the poor marksmanship of a bad man. Personally I’d rather not.
In this story:
– The “good guy” stopped the “bad guy” once he grabbed the “bad guy”‘s gun.
– That same gun didn’t shoot up anybody else in the congregation, once the good guy got hold of it.
– Meanwhile, the “good guy’s” gun didn’t shoot anybody; still hasn’t.
It seems like who’s holding a gun matters more than the gun being there. More, that the guns in this story did some good when the right guy had them. I wonder how many would be alive and uninjured if this guy who stopped a mass shooting with his bare hands had had better tools on him, like a gun?
I’d be delighted if you can find a way to keep guns out of the hands of whack-jobs who shoot up churches. Also nightclubs, army bases, and schools. If you can do that, maybe reach out to Jewish community center, outdoor community meetings and congressional baseball practices.
I haven’t seen a law or policy proposed yet that would do that, thought I have seen plenty that would leave this GG with only his hands, and the whack-job’s gun, to protect his congregation. When a whack-job can shoot up kids and plant explosives on an isolated island in a country where civilian guns are banned, banning gains us what?
“A “DGU” would not have stopped this attack anyway.”
I think you need to look up the definition of “stop”.
Hey, Anti-Free troll (your handle says it all),
Go back to HuffPoo. Your kind is not wanted here.
Unless, as was suggested, you are a foil to provide rhetorical practice in dealing with the inanity of those that actually think the way your sock puppet does. In which case…satire on.
Umm, American(traitor)patriot.etc.
A DGU , according to many studies,, in this case by the CDC authorized by Obama, happens any where from hundreds of thousands to 2 million times a year.
Just Google “CDC study on gun violence” and it will come up on the first page.
AmericanPatriotsAgainstSelfDefense …,
“An innocent person was and is still dead.”
She very well might have survived had she been armed.
“A ‘good guy with a gun’ still didn’t stop this from happening …”
That’s because THERE WERE NO GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS ON THE PREMISES. The only reason that the casualty count was not far greater is because the attacker freakishly managed to incapacitate himself.
“It’s easier to run or fight back against a nutbar armed with a knife, baseball bat, section of pipe or a brick than with a gun.”
NOT WHEN YOU ARE UNARMED. A fit male attacker (as in this case) with a steel pipe will easily incapacitate a fit male counterattacking defender with one blow. And an average female defender or an average male defender age 60+ has ZERO chance of fending off a fit male attacker with nothing more than a steel pipe.
Your claims are so wrong on their face I can’t believe it hasn’t been called out yet. No, fists, bats and knives don’t kill fewer people than guns every year. Basic research would reveal to you that fists and feet alone kill more people than firearms every year, not to mention the sundry other items that top guns on the kill tally. Furthermore, this wasn’t a good guy with a gun situation. This was a good guy without one, who got one after the fact. He did so because guns are effective. Basic research also shows that people who resist attackers with guns as opposed to other means are less likely to be injured. So you go ahead and fight an handgun armed attack with a brick, you idiot. Tell me how that goes for you. Also explain why, since guns are so ineffective against armed attackers, that our police force to a man is equipped with one for the purpose of defeating armed assailants.
Please go on, I’ll wait. I hope instead though you utilize the time to realize you how stupid you actually are.
Don’t feed the troll people. Ignore him and in a couple of days he’ll go away. There is nothing to be gained by engaging these sorts. Their goal is attention, good, bad or otherwise. If it makes you feel better just sharpie AmericanPatriotsAgainstAmericanHatingProGunners on the bottom of your silhouette targets this weekend.
Let’s be honest here — it should have been a visa denied and a deportation implemented.
But who will open all those Sudanese restaurants?
Lets see; black shooter, white victims. Should get the same press treatment as a white shooter with black victims right? I’m not holding my breath.
I’m surprised many people are missing an important detail I noticed in the Washington Post story on this incident (I don’t know if this info appears elsewhere).
Quoted from the article:
“Engle told Ramey that he approached the shooter thinking he had his handgun on him, but he realized that he didn’t and instead engaged in a hand-to-hand struggle.”
Wait a minute: He *thought* he was carrying. But *wasn’t*. And didn’t figure this out, apparently, until about to take on the bad guy. This whole incident could have been a *lot* worse than it turned out.
Warning: I think the Washington Post paywalls many articles:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/gunman-opens-fire-at-nashville-church-killing-at-least-one/2017/09/24/e88f65dc-a156-11e7-b14f-f41773cd5a14_story.html?utm_term=.6551eb7b95fe
Hmmm…haven’t heard that.He was just absentminded?!? Tons of armed folks,po-leece and ornery church folks full of righteous indignation st my church. Carry on…
Mr. Engle is a 6’5″ man who took on an armed bodybuilder. And I’ll wager that he doesn’t kneel in shame when the National Anthem is played.
And he owns a real dog. Not a purse rat. A real dog.
Ralph, I must say you’re on a roll today. This and the “…it shoulda been a visa denial…” are gold! Keep ’em coming.
Actually, I like to think of this militant kneeling fad as a form of “taking a knee” to something/someone superior that deserves respect. Like when the Queen says, “Take a knee” when she’s knighting somebody. So even though the foolish, militant, overpaid professional athletes and owners of the NFL and NBA think they are being defiant, they really aren’t. They are on the floor recognizing the Anthem in their own juvenile way. Now, once they realize that, they’ll be back on their feet. Or stay sequestered in the locker room (unseen where nobody will care what they do) until the Anthem is over.
Sudan, probably what is now South(ern) Sudan since the split in 2011, not Somalia. (Northern)Sudan tends more Arab and Muslim. South Sudan runs black and pagan or Christian.
But it does show why we should have shut our borders to ALL immigrants in 1800. There is no reason for the US to have any Sudanese or Somalians residing here.
Does anybody know why the “good guy” went to his car to retrieve his own gun AFTER he struggled with the “bad guy” and shot him with the “bad guy’s” own gun? In other words, why didn’t the “good guy” continue to use the “bad guy’s” gun in this situation?
This is a great question. Could be multiple answers for it. Out of ammo, gun jammed, gun unfamiliar, gun was handed to someone and second gun was retrieved and brought to bear….
I’ve always imagined I would retrieve attackers gun in scenarios like this. If I shoot a guy carrying an AR or AK or shotgun, I’m upgrading my weapon.
Other reasons he might have decided to retrieve his own gun instead of using the attacker’s gun:
1) The attacker’s gun is evidence, with the attacker’s fingerprints and DNA on it, and he didn’t want to contaminate the evidence with his own fingerprints or DNA.
2) Fearful of how it would look if the police rushed into the room to find an armed man standing over an unarmed man who’s bleeding from the chest! Feared that cops might shoot first, and ask questions later. On the other hand, the same thing could’ve happened after he got his own gun from the car, so that’s not a likely explanation.
3) In some states (including my state of NJ), if you took the attacker’s gun away from him, suddenly you’re in possession of an unregistered handgun, which means you’re now a criminal. It’s a stupid law, but in NJ the law is so bad that if you see a gun lying on the ground in a playground with kids around, and you pick it up to keep it away from the kids, you can be arrested for felony gun possession because NJ makes no exceptions for being a good Samaritan! A similar situation did happen in NJ, and prosecutors were debating whether to charge the good Samaritan with a felony for keeping the gun out of the hands of children!
4) The good guy’s gun was better and more powerful than the bad guy’s gun. This is likely, considering the bad guy accidentally shot himself in the chest and not only lived, but apparently was able to walk away (in handcuffs) under his own power!
Amazing that the WaPo said he stopped the threat with own gun!!! (He didn’t exactly.)
Am I hallucinating?
So, a black man – a Somalian refugee, nonetheless – shoots up a church and the media is focused on Anthony Weiner crying. But a white dude shot up a black church and it was “racists, racists, everywhere!”
I hate the media.
Another Muslim Roach on a Jihad, Just another Dupe for the Illegal teachings Of the Imam who has misspoken the word of the Prophet, a perverted guidance taken from the Hadith, Allah knows those are words from the Adversary and are not of the Quran 47:25,26
“struggled with the gunman, causing the killer’s pistol to discharge into his own chest.”
We need classes on how to make the killer’s pistol discharge into his own head.
Anyone else notice how this story is getting NO airtime?
Not on yahoo.com, not on any news channel; If it wasn’t for this site, I (in Germany) wouldn’t have known it happened.
God damn google and their support for the democrats.
(Google media, Inc. the largest media conglomerate on Earth was Obama’s number 1 financial backer during his re election campaign. Making getting unbiased news from pretty much anywhere impossible.)
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