Ask Foghorn: Is .22lr The Best for Self Defense?

1. Nick, I saw that study too, the only fly in the 9mm ointment is it used military shootings as well, this inflated the 9mm number with a large number of FMJ and not JHP numbers. I believe if the military numbers were removed it would drop back down into the same number range as the rest of the handgun rounds. The study reinforces the belief your pistol is only a means to get to your long gun. and when you need to put someone down, a long gun is the way to go.

   • My take was: Bring a gun to a gunfight!

     For all the chest thumping for this or that cartridge, hitting your target counts most, even if you have to hit it more than once. As is, those statistics don’t show much difference between 9mm and the magic 40 S&W. There’s also not much difference between centerfire rifle and shotgun (from the full article). Clearly, a long gun is more deadly and accurate than a pistol. Rule #1: ‘if you’re in a gunfight, have a gun’. Rule #2, shoot until the threat stops, whether that’s .22LR or .50BMG (I’m assuming .50 BMG didn’t skew the centerfire rifle stats too much 😉 ).

   • 15 years ago I was shot in the abdomen with a .22LR from a short barrel Mark II and I came damn close to dying.
     Anyone who was ever shot in the stomach , with anything, knows it is extremely painful. I would not be able to continue the fight or shot with any accuracy thereafter.
     Concealed carry is ONLY about ending the threat and a .22 lodged in a perp’s body will make them flee unless they are on pcp or meth.
     PP is ONLY about making the attacker retreat and not putting a trophy above your mantle. Knowing what it’s like to be shot with a .22 gives me great insight.
     I would only use copper plated 40 gr rounds for carry, no HPs.
     JMHO.

     • I’m curious. What, in your experience of being shot, gave you the stated opinion “… no HP…” for .22’s for carry?

       • .22 LR hollow-points tend not to expand much, if at all, when fired from a short-barreled pistol. The large jump in velocity you get from a .22 LR rifle is a different story.

         And for a round as small as the .22 LR, the deeper penetration from a solid bullet is preferred, since it doesn’t have the momentum of larger rounds, and can more easily deflect off of bone (a rib, for example) instead of passing through and hitting a vital organ or major blood vessel.

         Basically, with a .22 LR, every little bit of extra penetration is more desirable than marginal expansion (and its associated decrease in penetration).

       • 22lr rounds do not expand reliably, or at all, from pistol length barrels. They only expand reliably, at full velocity, from a rifle barrel.
         So JHP is useless and doesn’t penetrate as well as FMJ.

         For the 22lr round to be effective from a pistol sized barrel, it needs to be moving as fast as possible with as much mass as possible.

         If you use hyper velocity 22lr ammo, it can easily penetrate through 13 inches of ballistic gel.

     • why only solid .22 bullets and not the hollow points?

     • I’d load an HP every other one.

       • Makes no sense.

   • I have to wonder how so many military shootings could possibly be counting in the 9mm category. Hardly anyone in the military is even issued sidearms, those that do are not likely to ever fire them in anger, let alone actually hit the enemy, and those that do carry sidearms and have even the slightest likelihood of using them are SOF operators (who would just as likely have .40 or .45, and use hollowpoints) and CID/OSI special agents (who also carry hollowpoints). I would shocked to high heaven if, in the past 16 years of war, there are more than a few dozen verifiable, documented cases of military personnel using 9mm FMJ in battle and actually being able to observe the aftermath in a controlled setting (i.e. the enemy was captured and given a medical examination with forensics applied to verify who fired what bullet into them). Certainly not so many cases as to have a substantial effect on a study like this.

     In fact, if that were the case, I would go out and spend my life’s savings on lotto tickets…

2. This is probably one of the best articles I have read on this subject. Maybe the wife will inherit my Walther P22, I’ll stick with my Glock 30 though.

3. All bullets that miss have the same effectiveness rating on the target:0%

   So it would be in the best interest of the shooter to pick the caliber they can afford to shoot the most of. For Donald Trump a 10mm makes a great choice. For broke people like me, a 9mm is as large as I’m going.

   • Same here! I’m currently eyeing a Sig P938 to have a smaller carry gun because I like my 9mm rounds. My current gun is a Springfield XDs in 9mm. I’ve shot .45 and like it from a bigger gun, but it’s so expensive!

4. Years ago, when I was a medic in the Air Force, we worked on a young man who was shot in the head with a .22 rf. We didn’t know the circumstances, but lucky for him, the bullet flattened on the skull, then was deflected and followed the skull under the scalp to the other side of his head – where we found and removed it. Of course, the bullet took him out of the fight, but I’d rather not rely on a .22 rf for self defense.

   • Hi Ike,

     Let’s not make a general statement like that because you could have people think that a 22 is just going to bounce of ones head, and everything is going to be alright. Do we know what type of gun it was fired from? Do we know the type ammo was used? As for home defense I can tell you right now if it had been a rifle for example (S&W M&P 1522) firing the Aguila Interceptor 40 grain 22lr @1,470 fps he would have been a done deal.

     • Yes I have a S&W MP15-22 and anyone who thinks that won’t knock a man down and keep him down needs to come out to the range with me and see what it can do.

       • +1

         I’ve taken large deer very effectively with a MP15-22 firing HV.

         The manageability and accuracy make me figure it’s definitely a contender, especially since low cost of ammunition allows for more time on the range, and therefore probably better performance in a high stress adrenalinized situation.

   • It’s also important to note that any search for “survives gunshot wound from a …” and fill in the blank with a caliber will come back with crazy stories about people surviving the things you wouldn’t expect them to survive. A woman survived a gunshot wound to the head from a 45, a soldier took a 50 BMG through his helmet and into his brain and didn’t die, the list goes on and on.

5. You left out the single most important chart from this data: failure to incapacitate. That’s what we care about. Not how many shots were fired, not how many people died. Did the shooter end the attack? Did they get home safe at the end of the day?

   http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Failure_to_Incap.png

   .22, .25, and .32 are all miserable stoppers. Now, .22 is much better than nothing. If that’s all your dad can carry, or will carry, go with god. In most cases, the deterrent effect will mean no shots are fired. But in the remaining < 10% of the cases, the mouse gun cartridges often (over 30% of the time) did not stop. By comparison, .357 failed only 9% of the time. (The same as a rifle! Although not nearly as deadly, and requiring an extra .3 trigger pulls.)

   You might get him to consider a .22 magnum. It offers significantly better penetration, which often makes a difference. (.22 mag out of a snubby has the same velocity as .22 LR out of a rifle.) The upside to .22 of any kind is that he'll be shooting it out of a revolver. As long as he cleans the pocket lint out of it once a year or so, it's unlikely to jam on him.

   • You’re right. As I was reading this post I couldn’t help but think: “Okay, but how many of the people shot with .22LR died later in the hospital rather than at the site of the gunfight?”

     • Not as many as you would think. When people make it to the hospital with a .22 wound their survival rates is astounding. Your body’s ability to heal itself from tiny wounds plus the doctors help means they typically survive

       • Great article, thx. BTW, a .22lr is roughly twice the diameter of an icepick, and I wouldn’t wanna be on the receiving end of even one of those ‘tiny wounds’ either.

   • +1 with caveat

     If your old man insists on .22 then at least get it in a swanky chrome revolver that evildoers will think is a .357

     • Or get a revolver because rimfire has a less reliable igntion than centerfire. “Click, bang” beats “click, sh!t, tap, rack, bang” every time.

   • +1 on the .22Mag. IF Wade’s Dad insists on a .22, this is a much better choice. Shooting Times ran an article last year on the .22LR and .22Mag rounds for self-defense, and found (to my surprise) that the Hornaday Critical Defense .22Mag in a snub-nose revolver has the same penetration and wound cavity as a .380. No, it isn’t a .45 or .357, but it beats praying.

     There are bunch of lightweight .22Mag revolvers out there, from the S&W Model 351PD (7-shot), to a number of Taurus and Charter Arms versions. I have one of the S&W 351PDs, and it is accurate (for a snubbie), light, easy to shoot/low recoil, and has a big plus in that the ammo is a lot cheaper than most centerfire ammo. If someone is only willing to carry a .22, the .22Mag would be the better choice.

     • Or take a look at the KelTec PMR30, 30 rounds of 22 mag and plenty light and inexpensive, they can even take a mini red dot optic. Check the forums at thektog.org first, there were some problems when they first came out, but i’m assuming theyre fixed.

       • I agree and love mine but not terribly concealable.

     • +1 on the 351PD. It’s a fantastic little gun, for all the reasons you mentioned. And it has a good, visible fiber optic front sight.

     • The ruger lcr 22 mag is the best one out there. Six shot, and best trigger of all of the 22 mag revolvers.

   • Gunna be honest – I completely forgot that graph. It was sitting in my Excel sheet, but I never popped it in there.

     Updated to include, but I think this is a training issue more than a “stopping power” issue.

   • thugs must laugh at us with our penetration, hp, gel tests, mag capacity, stop power, etc. Thugs know that a white hot tumbling bullet, any sized bullet, will leave a bloody tunnel in their body. A 4″ or 14″ tunnel is all the same to the surgeon patching it up. We’ve all seen security videos of those yo yo yo mutts scrambling like cockroaches at the 1st sight of a clerk’s gun.

   • Get your dad to move up to a 22 magnum then show him the definition of a through and through,

   • Great point Jason. The object is usually to stop the Perp’s aggression and incapacitate them to save your life or the life of someone you care about. Killing the aggressor is really NOT the objective. Thanks for bringing that up. Who cares if they died as long as they did not kill or harm someone else? In fact, it might be better if they did not die but that brings up whole different discussion, doesn’t it?

6. The fatality metric, in my judgment, is completely irrelevant. In a self-defense situation, you are not shooting to KILL, you’re shooting to STOP THE AGGRESSION. If, as a side effect, the opponent is killed, so be it, but this isn’t the reason you’re shooting. Further, getting hit with a round like the .22LR may indeed kill the aggressor, but that says nothing about whether it actually STOPPED that aggression. Someone could easily be shot with a .22LR round, continued with the fight until he killed you, then bleed out and die later — too late to do you any good.

   Also: keep in mind that 9mm is significantly overrepresented in this survey of data versus other calibers (~68 for .25ACP, for example.) And, as Geoff pointed out, military cases with FMJ were included there.

   The study is interesting but to declare that the .22LR is “looks to be among the best in terms of stopping the threat” is very premature without addressing these concerns.

   • I disagree that you are “not shooting to kill.” If the perp survives, then he gets to tell his side of the story, which will always be different than yours. Dead men tell no tales, as they say. Probably the one thing George Zimmerman has going for him at the moment.

     • I don’t like either term. If you want to use “shoot to kill” or “shoot to stop”, fine. One sounds menacing, the other sounds politically correct. I choose “shoot to live.”

       If I’m shooting an attacker it means I’m doing so to save my own life. Whether he dies or is wounded doesn’t matter to me as long as the threat has passed and I’m alive.

     • His point is that you’re shooting to make that person stop what they’re doing right the fvck now. Not two hours later in an alley or hospital. You want to incapacitate that person immediately. Killing them is a distant second to surviving.

       Also, how most self defense laws are written (at least the ones in Ohio that I’m familiar with) you aren’t actually given the authority to execute someone. Your authority isn’t to kill them, it’s to use force to make them stop attacking you. Force that just happens to be deadly.

       That’s what got that pharmacist in trouble. He shot the one goblin to the ground. Then came back and pumped five more into him with a second gun while he was on the ground and no longer a threat. Your authority is strictly to make them stop.

       • No. What got the pharmacist into trouble was not shooting the guy multiple times initially to insure his death. Had he not stopped, then came back, he wouldn’t have caught any heat. This whole debate about the .22lr always goes nowhere. People need only look at the FBI ballistics report on the subject. It determined shot placement was, by far, the determinant factor in putting someone down. A .357 to the arm won’t stop an attacker, and a .22lr to the heart will. It’s that simple. The people who talk trash about the cartridge, oddly, never volunteer to stand in front of one and prove everyone wrong. It’s a simple matter of physics. We know the ft-lbs in the cartridge, and the resistance of flesh and bone. A .22lr to the chest has the same “knockdown power” (a term specifically debunked in the FBI report) as a .45 to the chest. Stand in front of one, or move along.

     • @Joe grine: That’s the reply of someone who has never been properly trained in defensive use of firearms and is hotheaded and delusional. Kinda like Jerome Ersland of Okla. City shooting fame. http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-pharmacist-dead-robbers-accomplices-life-prison/t/story?id=14053802

       • Sorry….a 20 yr military veteran here and I gotta agree with Joe. You are authorized to use lethal force and all he is saying is that when you do use lethal force…..well…. make sure that it’s lethal….. Pump whatever number is necessary into the attacker while the attacker is still on his feet and still facing you (because then he’s still a legitimate threat) and then you’re ok with the law. You can’t chase them down and kill them and can’t stand over them and finish them off but it is ok to pump 4 into him while he’s still facing you or in close proximity. Dead bad guys therefore can’t linger around and bend the truth…..

7. A long running argument for bigger bore has been they stop a charging assailant better. Only in the movies since all that energy usually leaves the rear and doesn’t reliably stay in the target.
   Bigger bangs are harder to control and get a second shot off. One and done isn’t guaranteed in any scenario.

8. A very interesting piece. Thank you for writing it. I was a bit surprised to see how effective 38spl did in comparison to some of the bigger more powerful calibers.

   • See my question. .38 sp is a popular choice for armed citizens, who only pull their gun and shoot when the BG is right on top of them. Same with .22 and .380. LEOs may fire their 9mm or .40 at distant or moving targets, so I’m not surprised the fatality/hit rate is lower.

     • You have raised a good point. The quote below from for some of the criteria selected for the study might be of consideration:

       “If the person shot was in the act of running (either towards or away from the shooter), he must have fallen to the ground within five feet.

       I also excluded all cases of accidental shootings or suicides. Every shot in this study took place during a military battle or an altercation with a criminal.”

       It appears that the study is for close range shootings which is fine to consider. I am curious how the findings might compare with distances of 10-20′. Either way, I’m grateful for the study and the article here.

     • I wonder how many .357s were actually .357 chambers shooting .38spl. More accuracy from the heavier frames and (maybe) more experienced shooters?

9. I saw this study and would like to see a breakdown of shooting scenario. How many shootings were self-defense in the home, how many were gang or crime-related and how many were cops? 9mm and .40 fare poorly in this survey, but they’re the overwhelming favorites of LEOs and criminals, both of whom are notoriously bad shots (Criminals may also just shoot wildly without intent to hit their targets.) On the other hand, a .22 is most likely deployed in a real self-defense situation at close range.

   • I thought the same thing. .22 and .25 are frequently used in murders because they’re small and relatively quite so they don’t attract a lot of attention and they’re easy to hide and cheap to replace.

     Also, in the case of a pre-meditated murder (like one with a .22 or .25) one could possibly get very close to their target before firing and thus increasing not only their accuracy but also the lethality and one shot stop percentage.

10. One thing to note about getting your CCW and using a .22lr is that some states have a minimum caliber requirement to qualify. I know in Texas you cannot qualify for your CCW with anything smaller than a .32 caliber firearm. I believe you can carry whatever you want, but you mus qualify with a .32 or better. I don’t if the laws have changed in TX or not. (been a couple of years since my CHL and I haven’t renewed yet) I do not know if other states have the same restrictions, but I do know that TX does.

    • You definitely can’t qualify for a CHL using a .22LR pistol. Also, if you bring a revolver, your permit will only be valid for use with revolvers, so you should bring a semiauto of some kind so that your permit will be valid for either semiauto or revolver.

      • They told me I could not use my 22 in class for HCP, but 38spl ok, and no restriction on my license re: revolver or auto (Tennessee). Must vary by state.

    • No limits on qualification in SC. You can qualify on any type of handgun, any caliber. I qualified on my 9mm, though. I wanted to be sure I could qualify with my own gun!

11. My problem with .22LR as a defensive round is based on the sheer number of FTF and other malfunctions I’ve experienced in .22LR pistols (revolvers not included in this). I had a malf on every other magazine on my uncle’s Wather P22, and have heard that most other semi-auto .22’s aren’t any better (and many have worse reputations than the P22). I would never recommend carrying a semi-auto .22 based on that fact alone, though a revolver may be ok if that was the biggest round the person could effectively shoot. Where concealment/portability isn’t a concern, if it came down to it you can bet your sweet ass that I would trust my life to my Ruger 10/22 rifle out to 75 yards or so. But for close range work, I’ll keep my Sig SP2022 with 16 rounds of PDX-1 that has never had a malfunction of any kind, and leave the small caliber mouseguns in the safe for plinking.

    • I agree with this, the rimfire round is not the most reliable even with modern ammo. I would choose centerfire every time because of this, when your life counts on it a FTF is a deal breaker for me.

    • Sounds like you might have a bad mag. Pay attention to which mag is in the gun when it jams.

      I’ve got a Ruger 22/45. Maybe I got lucky, but mine only jams on duds or if I don’t clean it once per brick.

      • “mine only jams on duds” This is the reason not to trust your life to .22. I have yet to have a dud 9mm or 5.56 in my entire career.

        • I have had far more bad centerfire rounds than 22lr rounds. and i have shot a LOT more 22lr.

          i have had many sideways, backwards primers. badly seated bullets, missing powder, excessive powder, etc.

          i have a nice little collection of bad commercial centerfire rounds.

          centerfire rounds are far more complex to manufacture… more to go wrong…

        • Maybe I have been lucky, I have had a ton of jams with the M16A2 and the M4…but that is do to the piss poor design and not the ammo not going off. .22 I seem to get a dud every 3 or 4 hundred rounds, cycle it back threw for another strike and 50% of the time it still fails to go boom.

        • I have never had a dud centerfire round. Then again, I don’t buy Tula, Wolf , or garbage.

          • IMHO, there is nothing wrong with Wolf or Tula in an AK. The problem with steel casing in the AR is that the tolerances are so high, after firing the steel cartridge does not contract as fast as brass, therefore the problems with ejection. I only use brass cased ammo in my ARs.

            I do not know what the hoopla is about .22 or other rimfire cartriges. I have run thousands of rounds of the really cheap bulk stuff (Remington Thunderbolt) with maybe 2 or 3 duds. Sometimes there are feed problems due to the lead only (not even copper plated) bullet. If the gun is cleaned with Jbore (I cannot say enough good about this product) I have eleminated virtually all FTF problems.

        • I have never had a 22 fail to fire, but have had 22LR auto pistol fail to fully eject, too often. If I used a 22lr for defense , it would be a 9 shot revolver, never an auto.

12. if I shoot a guy with a .22 and he runs away to later expire at home or the hospital that wouldn’t convince me of .22 being a good choice and the stats don’t tell me anything about how often that happened. Similarly I can’t tell if a baddy would have died from the first of many shots that hit him, again something that I’d consider likely and given the prevalence of 9mm and .40 used by those who appear to be better trained with their guns and more likely to shoot more than once for good measure something I’d would want to know. My own conclusion is that these statistics aren’t really all that conclusive.

    • “He runs away”

      That right there is the best possible outcome for a DGU…..so whats the problem with .22? You shoot, the threat leaves you…

      • … to go and get treatment at taxpayer expense, and to go victimise someone else later on.

        Better for the taxpayer and the rest of society for the crim to be deaded.

13. Is there a graph showing the average number of rounds to cause fatality by calibre?

14. “And, because I have nothing better to do today, we’re going to open up that whole can of worms . . .”

    Oh sh!te. Putting my seatbelt on.

15. I have just a couple of questions.
    Regarding the statement “And, because I have nothing better to do today, we’re going to open up that whole can of worms “;
    What brand and caliber of worms?
    Where do you purchase your cans of worms: I can’t find an online source.
    Why were the worms canned and, does PETA know about this wholesale worm torture?
    (Apparently you aren’t the only only one who has nothing better to do today!)

    • Bob, more concerning are the guys who will bring silliness to the discussion by telling us that they’ve gone beyond the ordinary worm and are using centipedes or some other non-sense.
      Best place to buy worms is:

      JD’s 24 Hour Drive Through Pawn & Gun Auto Parts Discount Pharmaceutical Adult Gift Bait & Tackle Discount Cigarette Outlet.

      Here’s their latest sales promotion:

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HO5XYegBla8

      Tell JD that Dave sent you.

16. I’ve read this study before. It has a lot of information in it but there’s still a lot of variables not accounted for.

    What percentage of each shooting was criminal/leo/armed citizen DGU?

    What percentage of the lethal shootings were immediate stops/dying later in the hospital?

    What percentage of the non-lethal shootings succeeded in stoping the threat?

    What percentage of the shootings that had multiple shots had trained shooters shooting 5-10-15 rounds until the threat was on the ground? What percentage of the multiple shot shootings had shootees in a chemically altered state of mind?

    What percentage of the one shot stops were people surrendering after being shot but not actually being incapacitated?

    I like this study a lot for other observations but I don’t think it’s conclusive enough for a question like this. I’ll just stick with the Glock 17 and shoot as accurately and rapidly as I can.

    • Well, when you find all that data, maybe you could spend the countless hours to compile a study. Unfortunately, this type of data is not recorded often and certainly difficult to research and compile. We have to go with what we have and this presentation is pretty much that.

17. Really great article Dan, and the comments are excellent. This really showcases the TTAG site for what it can be at it’s best.

18. My two cents: The .22 is an option, but not one I’d use. As many other commenters have noted, there are issues with the data in terms of what it really says. It can all be completely true and still not give a solid picture of the lethality of a cartridge. My thought process is thus: Based on my experience in hunting deer and the military, I trust that enough testing has been done to determine optimum balance between firepower, controllability and lethality. No one uses a .22 rimfire for either of those two pastimes (though my grandfather swore he used to shoot deer with a .22 rimfire long).Can a person be killed with a .22? Certainly, as this data well bears out. Is it the most efficient way of stopping an imminent threat? I doubt it. If a .22 is all a person can/will carry, then it beats pocket knife, I won’t knock it on those grounds, but if we’re comparing it to other modern firearms, loaded with modern civilian ammunition, I’ll stick with my 9mm/.38sp+p.

19. Most folks don’t want to get shot, even with a 22lr. Don’t underestimate a 22lr, I’ve put down 1000# plus cows with the 22lr round. I often carry a S&W 317 especially around the farm. However most of the time my carry gun is a 38spl or 9mm which I feel are much better suited to the self defense roll. The gun you have is always better than the gun you don’t have and a trained shooter with a 22lr should be respected. I think the one thing the study points out is that a shotgun is better than a handgun in a gun fight.

20. I have a Walther P22 and I love love love that pistol. It’s affordable to shoot so I take it out every chance I get and put three to five hundred rounds through each time I hit the range. My comfort and accuracy with the pistol is my highest priority. I also use it as a conceal carry. The thing I think is often overlooked in these “which is the best caliber for carry” conversations is that…

    1. I think a high percentage of Bad Guys would be surprised, perhaps even to the point of abandoning their bad guy activities by the mere SIGHT of ANY pistol. “I’ve chosen my victim poorly. Time to move along.”
    2. All pistols go BANG, even 22s, this fact may also gently persuade an assailant to hit the f-‘n road, post haste.
    3. When someone is shot, I don’t think their initial thought is going to be “it’s only a 22. I still have time to finish my attack / robbery before I bleed out” I think their first thought is “I’ve been shot! Holy S–! I bet he has MORE THAN ONE BULLET in that gun, and I’m sure more are coming my direction.”

    That all being said, I also plan to add a 9mm that I can carry to my collection, probably my Walther’s bigger brother, the PPS since it fires and handles so similarly to my P22.

    • Get a P99 or the new PPQ, I love walther pistols, and have had a P99 QA 9mm for the last 2 years and have put over 2k rounds through it. I love this gun. I do really want the new PPQ also though. They have made a few changes to the trigger(lowered the pull about 3.5 lbs), and the grips which make it even nicer from what I’ve seen and read. Just my 2 cents but, the PPS is to blocky and doesn’t compare.

21. I’m not saying it’s the ideal defensive caliber, far from it, but it’s no mouse fart either. I’m saying people drastically underestimate the power of small calibers in contact shooting. To get an idea of the force and penetration, take a phone book or a boot or a pig skull, or whatever you feel like testing, and drive an ice pick into it as hard as you possibly can. Make sure you use all of your weight and jam it in there hard enough that you feel the shock of the impact through your whole arm and shoulder. Take note of how deep you get. Then shoot it with a .22 lr. Compare the experiences and learn that the .22lr has more potential for penetrative power then your whole body does.

    -D

    • That’s what she said.

      -D

    • Hi Don,

      You’re are correct. Getting shot by a 22lr is not going to tickle that’s for damn sure. Check out my own test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj7_KjuKT8k

    • There is a video on you tube of a guy firing all nine shots from a Taurus .22 pistol completely through a 2 X 4 at about five yards. Don’t know what ammo he was using, but all of the shots went through at that distance. I think that would pretty much do some damage to a human body if you hit someone a couple two or three times with it.

22. like any other round it comes down to the type of defensive round you choose. If you going to load your pistol with 50 rounds for 99 cents target loads, then you’re in trouble. I would never want to be on the business end of a .22 load with CCI Mini Mags Hyper Velocity Hollow Points (my personal favorite), or Stingers. I too, have considered a 22 revolver or semi auto loader with either round for personal carry, but it would be strictly from an economic standpoint. I’d much rather carry 38 +p or 9mm +p.

23. “And, because I have nothing better to do today, we’re going to open up that whole can of worms ” hahaha love it.

24. I knew someone in high school that was shot 3 times from close range in the head with a .22lr handgun(two rounds entered the skull and one did not) and was able to escape under his own power. He was a little slow getting jokes and all, but got good grades and everything. Sorry, but I will never trust my life to a round that can do that.

    And with the high rate of not incapacitating displayed here, why would you want to give the bad guy more of an opportunity to possibly shoot back? Sure it has a very slightly higher rate for killing, but has a much higher rate of not doing shit. Yeah, that sounds like an awesome trade off.

    • I member watching a Mas Ayoob video on the internet where he made the same point in his typical brusque, yet avuncular, manner. This is not verbatim, but it was along the lines of: “I could shoot Mongo in the head with a .22 and he might drop dead. On the other hand, it might just bounce off and piss him off.”

    • And by the same token my uncle was shot point blank with a 20 gauge shotgun in the stomach and managed to make it to his car and to the hospital.
      NO caliber is an automatic kill without good shot placement.

25. I’ll stick with the “big three,” 9mm, .40 and .45…

26. One word: jams.

    My buddy recently bought a brand-new Ruger Mk III, a highly-praised target pistol. I have made that gun jam more times than every other firearm I have ever shot, COMBINED. I don’t care if HK made it, I would never trust my life to an auto in 22LR.

    That leaves revolvers, where there is no reason to carry less than a .38 Special. If you can’t handle the recoil from a .38, you probably don’t have the strength to present and accurately aim a handgun at all.

27. I am sick and tired of hearing this damn argument. Whenever someone I know starts on this, I ask them a question that goes something like this:
    You are about to be dropped into the middle of a hot war zone, think Liberia or Sierra Leone circa 1999-2001, and you must survive for 24 hours (for whatever reason, the locals are very intent on killing you). You may bring one gun with a full load of ammo carried on your person. Your choices for the gun are either a Ruger 10/22 with 50rd mags (I dunno if those 50 rounders actually exist, pretend they do) or an AK-47 with the regular 30rd mags. Which do you choose?
    If they answer with the Ruger, I walk away shaking my head. Oddly enough, 0/20+ Afghanistan/Iraq/Iwo Jima/Vietnam vets who heard this question answered with the Ruger.
    C’mon people, pressing a .22lr into combat.defensive service is like saying your garden hose will be effective for putting out a house fire. Sure, it can theoretically work, but wouldn’t you prefer to have a legit fire hose?

    • so you face them with an fantastically unrealistic self defense scenario and ridiculous choices and expect a reasonable answer. i’m the one who would walk away shaking my head at your question.

    • uh..yeah.
      When Im actualy in a WAR zone with armored, experience soldiers then maybe.
      Too many people have been killed by 22’s for me to think the caliber is worthless.

      In REAL self defense scenarios most of the time the gun only needs to be seen to stop the bad guys. Dont get that much in a combat zone.

    • No one is getting dropped into a war zone in this conversation. This is about living a normal routine life with ability to carry. I typically carry a kahr cm 9 or ruger lcp 2 but since i’ve never had to (and hope i never do) use them, i would most likely be fine with a ruger lcr in 22lr or 22mag and feel just as protected.We are not Frank Castle (the punisher for those who dont know) and if we were then yes we would all be armed for bear! many above say the same thing. stopping the threat even if it simply means they ran at the site of a 22 is better than just letting them have their way. just my 2 cents.

28. Nice write up, Nick! There of course many variables, but I was pleased to see how well the .380 did, at least statistically.

    • This is exactly what I was thinking. And there were a LOT of comments before this one.

      I was looking at the same data and thinking- 25 and 32=crap. But that sig p238 .380 which is concealable, and EASY to shoot is not looking all that bad.

      The lowly .380 is moderately comparable to the .45 ACP. Deaths-about the same. Rounds- slight edge to .45. NOT incapacitated- similar. The edge in all these stats goes to the .45, but an average trained person (not an expert) might be more likely to get in a fairly accurate double tap with a 380 than a 45. I know I can.

      Hitting what you aim at is crucial.
      This has been very helpful- all comments for and against.

    • This is a speculative reason for the .380s dominance. I do not believe females are being adequately represented. My wife when choosing her firearm for CC could not handle anything accuately larger than a .380. In addition, most women do not carry on their person. In a formal or work setting it is usually their purse. In a casual setting they may use a fanny pack. Also, as a maxillofacial trauma surgeon of 30 years in both the military and civilian settings, the .22 was the most common caliber and was extremely difficult to locate and extract. When shot from the neck up, virtually all the investigative reports stated that the assailant was stopped immediately. If shot in the chest, pneumorthorax or cardiovascular damage was sufficient to incapaciate the perpetrator. Gastrointestinal shots were extremely painful and stopped the perpetrator in short order unless they were on amphetamine, ketamine, PCP, or heroin. Single shots to the extremeties did not stop them immediately, but multiiple shots caused shock. I can get off 11 rounds of my .22 accurately in under 7 seconds. I cannot say the same for my .40 cal Beretta.

      • And this is why it’s SO important to practice and to try out different guns and calibers before purchasing. I personally love my 9mm and have become pretty accurate with it. But the most powerful caliber is no good if you can’t hit anything with it! I think, especially for women, it’s crucial to find the right combination of gun and caliber. I hated shooting my Dad’s .45; it was a smaller .45, and the recoil on it almost knocked me on my butt! However, someone let me shoot his .45 1911, a nice large gun, and it was a sweet shoot. Nice and smooth, very little perceived recoil…too bad it’s too big for a concealed weapon!

29. Colt Commander .45 acp
    Glock 21 .45 acp
    Taurus PT 92 AF 9mm
    NA Arms .22 mag
    What I carry is based on my clothing. That I carry is given. Argue what you will. If you can’t conceal, if you don’t carry, you’re unarmed.

30. Thanks a lot Nick, I appreciate the objective response!

31. An old saw says that more people are killed by .22s every year than by any other caliber. Wonder if that’s true. But I do know that hogs are put down for slaughter with .22s to the head, and the Russians performed executions with a double tap to the back of the skull with a .22. The .22 has enough power to enter the skull, but not enough to exit–so it tends to spend its energy rattling around inside making scrambled brains. .22s have been used for a very long time in assassinations, both due to their low report and their effectiveness in killing head shots. At bad breath range, a .22 pistol is effective as a self defense weapon, and that is the range at which it is most likely to be employed. In home invasions, we are talking a max range to target of 3 or 4 yards, so for an elderly or disabled person, .22s are a viable option. And the premiun rounds, minimags, velocitors, and stingers, penetration at these ranges will be substantial. On top of which, the BG isn’t too likely to know what it is he is being shot with, only that he’s hit, and thus highly motivated to get the heck out of dodge.

32. I am calling BS on this. The .22 caliber gun fight has a higher percentage of fatalities, combined with the fact that the .22 has the highest percentage of non-debilitating shots is telling.

    A man shot once with a .357 has a greater probability of going down, even if the injury is non-lethal. A man shot with a .22, however, will not be incapacitated. He will keep coming–and coming and coming until enough shots are fired to put him down for good.

    The purpose of a defensive round is not to KILL, it is to end the threat. If the .22 LR was good at that, all the world’s armies would be using it.

    Of course, the .22 is easier to control. Hitting a target with ah .22 is better than missing it with a .454 Casull.

    • Everything you said disagrees with the scientists at the FBI who put this to rest years ago. Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement. They were quite clear all common cartridges are lethal, and there’s no such thing as “knockdown power.” I’m going to go ahead and consider their information more reliable than yours.

      • I thought it was wound track and penetration.

        Knock down power is a myth? Well there’s definetly a measured ft. pound of force at the point of impact. Get shot in the vest with a .22 and compare it with getting hit in the vest by a .44 magnum. The 44 will actually knock you down. It’s hard to return fire when you’re getting ‘knocked down’, even if you’re not getting penetrated.

    • Actually, even in combat the purpose of shooting an enemy is seldom to kill the opponent, but generally to injure and force expenses and risks taking during rescue.

      From my perspective, most people, even those who hope vehemently for, will never have the need or the chance to brandish their firearm without spending thousands of dollars in attorney fees, some time in jail or most likely both.

      I may be cynical, but from what I see happening all around it seems that not even police officers can get a clean legitimate use of force with no consequences. I believe that there hardly is a black/white situation from the perspective of a jury, and I personally would much prefer to flea a scene, than having to shoot (harm anyone in any way) and also find myself in a court of law, spending 1000s to prove that I had to save my life, and running the risks of being jailed.

      Also, after a real gunfight there are emotional consequences to consider (and eventually social). Shooting, injuring and worse off killing someone would chance one’s emotional well being in unpredictable ways, while the social consequences are easier to foretell. Most people who were friend before a shooting in self defense will change their mind.

      While I understand that shooting a gun can be fun, and that in some rare events it is probably better being in jail than dead, I believe that any choice of caliber should be a matter of personal preferences only, and the effect of a gunshot aimed at anyone are not only in terms of physical damage to the perpetrator, but to the defendant in emotional social and legal terms as well.
      What an irony. Spending few cents on a round could cost so much in a courtroom, emotionally, socially, and that is if you make it out alive from a gunfight in the first place!

      Good Luck.

33. I don’t care if he’s using a 22 or a 45, your dad needs to aim for CENTER MASS! That is too fundamental to overlook.

    Human heads are not cow heads. I’m a vet, I’ve shot a lot of cows with a 22. They were sick, head down, not moving…pretty easy. Just 5 nights ago I had a farm call…llama with heart failure and had not stood for 3 days. All I had was a 45 and a 38, he got the 38 hoping it would be quieter. I tell you what…llama heads move all over the place, not an easy target. I’m guessing that’s like a human head, guessing. Look at the pro boxers, even they miss with a punch sometimes.

    Long story, but aim for center mass.

34. After first reading the results of the referenced study, I switched my primary/daily carry gun from a Kimber Ultra Carry II in .45acp to a S&W Bodyguard in .380acp.

    I carry an extra mag at all times and YES I strongly believe in the double tap.

    So far during my life I’ve had to draw my weapon on 3 occasions but have yet had to fire a shot. Thank God!

    I also believe that the sole purpose of a handgun is to allow you to get to your shotgun or battle rifle but, like they say, a gun is way better than no gun when a spontaneous confrontation occurs.

35. many times this turns into an emotional discussion rather than a factual one. as noted, there are gaps in these studies. my sole argument is to have a gun of any caliber that works for you. to me the question boils down to this: is it factually true that a .22 is used successfully, over and over, for home and personal defense? i say yes based on the sheer number of documented cases. also, the sheer lack of cases of failure strengthens the argument. ten minutes of searching results in hundreds of examples of successful cases, but i can not find cases where a .22 failed. i would like to read such a documented case.

36. Most gun fights are within 20 yrds. Any caliber gun can be lethal within that range. Lot of people (Leos or Vets) will tell you that in a fire fight most of your rounds miss. (I forget what that is called) just from the stress of the situation. Like a lot of people posted any gun is better than no gun. Just ask the lady who used the paint gun on a home intruder.

37. I carry a Ruger 357 SP101 with my reloads (158gr LRN @ ~1000FPS) as my main CC gun. Theyre toned down from a 357 magnum to a bit more than a 38+p so the wife can handle the gun.
    As a backup I carry an NAA mini revolver with the holster grip in 22 magnum.
    I was absolutely staggered by the NAA in 22 magnum at the range. Accurate enough to do the job and the ballistics of these Hornady Critical Defense rounds is really surprising out of that 1-5/8″ barrel.
    Im not fearful at all carring the 22magnum alone when I need to…on the golf course, for instance, when I dont want all that weight of the Ruger screwing my swing up.

    I’d personally be very comfortable carrying a 22 magnum for self defense.

    • Why use LRN and not JHP in the SP101?

38. Woman Uses .22 Pistol to Shoot & Kill Invader
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJte6Sic44

    • Bunch of interesting .22 videos in there, some DGUs, another a slo mo of a .22 subsonic having no difficulty penetrating through a hardball.

39. Heres my carry guns…

    http://gunrights.web77.org/images-site/guns.jpg

40. Interesting story of a .22LR bouncing off a skull and the “legal” ramification for the shooter:

    http://www.theodoresworld.net/archives/2008/01/post_24.html

    • Unless the peson has a titanium plate in his head, a hypersonic round like the CCI Stinger or Velocitor round nose will NOT fail to penetrate a human skull…guranteed!

41. good story….we should not over look the end result tho. the attack was stopped. so the .22 was obviously enough.

42. i think 22’s figure so heavily in the stats simply because they’re more 22’s out there than any other type, probably combined. also the man going to carry that 22 is an older, experienced hunter. less likely for him to get flustered under stress.

43. Sorry for the late comment but ran across this while surfing the web and enjoyed the comments and responses immensely. Great comments from many perspectives and all pretty valid instead of hyperbole that often accompanies this exact subject. Here are a couple of interesting facts that were made known to me during my military service in Vietnam. Let’s apply some facts here that were considered by the military experts of that time as the best combat round. NATO 5.56mm or in short .223 caliber or simply put, a 22 round with a heavy grain bullet and a larger center fire cartridge propellant. The whole purpose of this decision as it was made clear to me, was to reduce the battlefield enemy count by incapacitating the subject rather than killing him. In doing so, the subject was completely incapacitated and stopped from participating in the fight and it took one or two more enemy soldiers to tend to him effectively removing two or three soldiers from battle. The moral here is, a high velocity .22lr is nothing to sneeze at. Pick your rounds carefully to get the best penetration for carry, all you give up is a percentage of ballistic energy, the round is sound and the decision to use it was well considered. 22wmr goes a long way to close that gap as well. Fire a Kel Tec PMR 30 once and you’ll see what I mean.
    Conversely, officers were issued what at the time was just called a Colt 45, or just 45. What is now the venerable, famous 1911 that carries the elitists opinion of the optimum defense weapon. During the time of my service, well seasoned field officers would actually leave them behind in favor of extra rounds of .223 ammo.
    I’ve seen .223 hits, they’re not pretty and very random as to direction once contact is made. A 22lr may not completely emulate this but given the right ammo choice it can get close. 22wmr even closer. Key holing is a good thing at close range and that’s what you get with a .22. That said, I’ve seen 50 cal FMJ machine gun rounds go through a human target in a non vital area and the target didn’t even realize he was hit, until far later when the skirmish was over. So this debate will go on but the reality in my opinion is, bring the right ammo to the gun fight regardless of what your shooting.

    Thanks for your indulgence!
    Tom

    • I am also a Vietnam vet, although in the Air Force Medical Corp ARRS as a non-combatant. The 5.56 M-16 was a horrible failure for many reasons. It was ill suited for the combat environment and the JCS who approved it had a very flawed POU. The NVA did not have a “no man left behind” philosophy.

      Some studies indicate that the failure rate exceeded 50%, much of it having to do with the use of ball ammo and the carbon fouling it caused. Many M-16s were issued without a cleaning kit, or were not used properly.

      In Afghanistan, SOGs have gone to the 6.8 SPC M-16 and .45 cal sidearm.replacing the 9mm M-9.

44. What do you know about .117HMR compared to the .22LR ?

45. Something else I would add,
    Ammo has changed significantly through the years, and considdering the CCI mini mags ,it is understandable that the .22 capability is better than it might have been 30 odd years ago or more.
    I have watched other tests done demonstrating the penitration on a board according to military specs, and what is determined capable of killing , and that was impressive as well .
    Thanks for your input . be safe .

46. Most of the FTFs in rimfire firearms have to do with the feed ramp or poor quality ammo. My Walther P22 used to choke on anything but CCI Mini-Mags until I took it to the gunsmith and he told me about the problem with the feed ramp which is too narrow. Ruger corrected the problem. Now when I get a new firearm, I polish the ramp with #6 sandpaper and then use a dental polishing cone and my Dremel. After every outing at the range I thoroughly clean the entire gun and use Jbore which works wonders. Exercising this protocol has resulted in virtually no FTFs. The other problem is with the mags. Many times the lips get bent in the manufacturing process. Simple adjustment with needle nose pliars usually corrects the problem.

47. I would like to make several comments. First, most shooting are DOMESTIC and happen in the kitchen with small caliber “Saturday night specials” (Jimenez, Lorcin, Raven, Phoenix). It is ususally the wife shooting the husband in a domestic dispute. In effect you are talking about the person being 3 to 10 feet away, so a center mass or head shot usually results in a fatality.

    I have been shooting since age 8 as a military dependent, enlistee, and commissioned officer in the Air Force Medical Corp. Although I was a non-combatant, I participated in marksmanship competition throughout my service.

    I grew up on the .22 and have great respect for the caliber which is the most widley used and produced round in the world. As a former maxillofacial surgeon, I have treated my share of gunshots with small caliber arms to the face. Anything from the neck up is usually fatal and will certainly stop an attacker almost immediately.

    Shots to the torso are almost as disarming since the bullet usually penetrates the lung causing a pneumothorax or the cardiovasular system. Abdominal shots are not immediately lethal but are extremely painfu and will at the very least slow the attacker enough for the victim to escape.

    Shots to the extremeties, unless they are very superficial, will result in the perpetrator to go into shock, again allowing the victim to escape.

    Women seem to have been left out of this discussion. When choosing a CC firearm for my wife, I let her try all caliber I have, which range from .22-,40 cal. The largest she could handle without recoil apprehension was a .380. That may be the reason it came out as #1 as far as self-defense calibers. We decided on a Ruger LCP .380 she carries in her purse or in her pocket or fanny pack when she is not at work.

    I personally have a Bersa Thunder .380 for my CC. I could not find a 9mm, including the so called ultra-compacts that I could wear comfortably 8 hours a day 5 days a week. For home defense, I have a 12G Mossberg 500 with 00 buck and a .40 cal Beretta. For practice at the range, it is either my Walther P22 or Bersa Thunder 22.

    I am not trying to provoke an argument, but I cannot see the logic of a “seasonal” caliber. In other words carrying a .380 during the summer and a larger caliber during the winter. However to each his or her own.

    • +1 for Doc Rod from a 20yr Critical Care Flight Paramedic who has owned, fired and worked on victims shot with most available calibres on the US market.

      There was an officer wearing a vest who was shot with a single .22 round that found its entry point high on the mid axillary line of his chest wall near his left armpit… he was in cardiac arrest before we arrived at the scene. There is now a small memorial in front of the home where he was shot.

      That officer had a Tazer, mace, .40 Glock, compartment mounted shotgun and AR-15 in the trunk of his patrol car – an arsenal which proved to be useless when he asked a teenage driver of an SUV to get out of his vehicle. That single shot was fired point blank during a struggle and found its way through his lung and shredded his left descending aorta. Point made…

      My personal stock:
      Mossberg 500 12G with mix of (2).00 buck and then slug/.00 buck and .40 Glock for home protection, Lady S&W .9mm (say what you want, its thin, compact and fits easily in the small of my back without being noticed) for daily CC protection, Henry .22lr Survival Rifle in a bug out pack and Mossberg 715T for family fun, my daughter to gain proficiency with and target practice/hunt small game/defend.

      She is an excellent shooter and looks pretty bad ass firing an AR-15 style rifle… that said, whatever BG comes into our home will be met with SOMETHING, which is better than nothing and I’m pretty sure they will turn tail if they survive the first few rounds. Because she is properly trained, my 9yr old with our .22lr 715T is more effective than I am empty handed and I’m no slouch.. but I can’t punch a bullet defending myself.

      • Thank you for making my point about the .22 although it was a rather sad story. A year ago I wrote a blog called “The Caliber Myth.”

        If you look at the stats, there is virtually no significant difference in the mortaility rates with shots from handguns. On the other hand there is a difference in morbidity.

        If you really want to stop/kill someone, nothing beats the long gun. Even the lowly .22 travels at about 1400 fps out the barrel of a rifle. The shotgun beats everything hands down.

        There is a problem with every form of defense and recoil apprehenion is the weak link with the shotgun. I personally have no problem with a shotgun, but if I did I would use either the 5.56mm or 7.62X39mm with a muzzle brake and recoil pad. The other option would be to go to a smaller gauge such as the 20 or even 410.

        The M-16 or AR-15 are excellen urban warfare rounds. In the forest or jungle I would prefer the mud gun (AK-47) in 7.62x39mm.

        As far as I am concerned, the big calibers .308 and greater are only good for sniper work, or in my case deer or boar hunting. Boar are especially tough even when using an AK. I have a AR-10 20 round in .308 I use for that type of hunting.

        For deer, I usually use my Savage 110 in 30.06. I have failed to bring on down using that caliber.

        For CC, I use a Bersa .380. To say that it is nothing more than a 9mm short I personally believe is an underestimation. When I was looking for a CC handgun, it came down to the .380 and 9mm.

        The .380 was the perfect caliber for me. It was very accuate with virtually no recoil. On the other hand, the 9mm ultra-compacts were a bit snappy for me and were uncomfortable to wear 8 hours a day, 7 days a week.

        For target practice, I use my 40 year old Ruger Mark I, my Walther P22, or Bersa Thunder 22. I can spend the whole day at the range without breaking the bank.

        As far as SD, the .22 would not be my first choice, but I would rather have it than nothing at all. Also, do not rule out edged weapons for SD. I carry my KBAR and have seen films of how effective it is, especially if you do not want a noise signature.

        All in all, there is too much emphasis on big bore caliber handguns for self defense. For offense it is a different story. NATO has adopted the 9mm and LEOs the .40 caliber per SAMMI because you are often shooting at a distant and moving target.

        • Been waitng on your comment on the 17 HMR.
          I have read some of the comments from those in Alaska using this round on small game .
          Head shot are a must , average zero range is about 100 yards .
          Now some reports say the round is dirty and requires a lot of cleaning ,but I haven’t fund that to be true in my marlin bolt acton .
          There is now a new manufacture that makes a semi auto on an AR platform, but they are saying they get misfires and that is normal . I never had a mis fire in my gun, but I haven’t shot thousands of rounds through it yet either.
          Because of the very flat trajectory and fine accuricy , I reason that as a last resort survival tool , defencively I can touch any one capable of touching me up to 300-400 yards .
          That round can be carried by the thousnds,compared to every thing else.
          And for things up close and personal a .357 mag revolver .
          I met man that had been caught poaching back east ,whom had successfully taken deer with the .17 hmr
          I don’t know the range he was shooting from, but it really does’t matter , in a survival atmosphere . it worked.
          Have you any expirence with the 17 hmr ?
          What are your thoughts?

          • I have shot the .17 HMR but did not find it much more effective than the .22LR. It did have a better trajectory and distance, but in effect it is an expensive, necked-down .22 that has an unsupported platform.

            The gain over the .22 is nominal IMO. The nice thing about the .22 is the versitility. My Marlin bolt action .22 tube action will accomodate .22 short, long, LR, and WMR. 22s also come in shot shells, 60 grain sniper rounds, and a host of other configurations.

            My favorite handgun caliber is my Bersa Thunder .22 and Ruger 10/22 .22 rifle. I also have a Mossberg 500A and Remington 870 shotguns which are excellent bird guns.

            If my only choices were been the .17 and .22, the .22 would win hands down. The .22 is also an “international” caliber and an be found anywhere in the world. The Israli Mossad uses the .22 with the Beretta 70 and 71 for their sky marshalls. El Al airlines now even allows veterans of the Israeli Defense Forces to carry on their planes.

            As you have probably noticed, since the Israeli govenment implemented these protocols there have been virtually no hi-jackings.

            As I mentioned, I can get off 10 rounds of .22 in the time I can get off 2 big bore rounds with more accuracy. Even if I just get 7 hits out 10 it will definitely put the person down.

            I can see some specialty uses for the ,17 but it is not a round I have in my arsenal.

    • 1st thing: best discussion on the issue of .22 and SD/HD ever, IMO. And thank you for your thoughts Dr.Rod, in particular.

      When choosing what gun and what round one will choose, a crucial issue that must be considered is over-penetration. In an urban household, in which you might have spouse/kids/neighbors present, a .22lr or a 12 gauge loaded with, say, #2 or #4 birdshot makes sense. (I recommend having a look at “Gunblast” on youtube where a pork shoulder is hit with some birdshot. It appears that birdshot is not just for the birds.)

      RE: the humble .22, a fellow on youtube named “tnoutdoors” has posted some really interesting tests in ballistic gel. He really does a respectable job with all of the many calibres he tests. The mini-mag and velocitor out of a Ruger 10/22 are pretty impressive. The results essentially mimic that of a .380.

      Also of interest are the ballistic gelatin, slow-mo vids from “brassfetcher”…again, available on youtube. The Velocitor is featured, (among many others), both from a pistol and a rifle. Very interesting indeed…

48. Does anyone remember what caliber President Reagan was shot with by John Hinkley? It was the lowly .22, despite being surrounded by Secret Service, Hinkey got 2 shots off. One missed and the other richocheted and hit Reagan in the chest causing a pneumothorax which nearly resulted in this death.

    • Hinckley got a lot more than two shots off. He got off six shots and wounded four people, nearly killing both Reagan and James Brady. Of course, Brady was permanently debilitated, leading his wife to become one of the most tenacious and well-known supporters of gun control in the nation.

49. Wonderful points altogether, you just received a emblem new reader. What would you suggest in regards to your publish that you just made some days ago? Any certain?

    • I apologize but I am not certain which post you are referring to.

50. Thank you all with your comments.After 4 open heart surg. and removal of my sternum due to infection,with a heavy and obviosly broken heart I must part with my Ruger M-77 in 30-06.Ialso have a pacemaker.I have the med O.K. but must keep recoil on shoulder to a minumum.So .22lr it will have to be.The most important thing I’ve learned hear is it’s better than nothing.Also 2x center mass,2x head and watch and be ready for jams.Did I miss anything?

    • Just be sure to use high quality ammo. like CCI mini-mags and make sure the lips on your clip are not bent and you will have few, if any jams. A .22 is deady lethal. The person getting hit does not know what caliber they have been shot with and unless they are really high on something they will usually tuck tail and run.

      • Thanks DR.ROD just picked up a ruger 10/22 as it felt better than the marlin 60.I feel its a fine plinker.In the hell of N.Y. they will take your app for a pistol permit but the wait as we speak is14-16 mos.Also a 10 rd. mag limit.This place even put in a law that you cant buy a soda over 16oz. and if you put a cupcake in you kids lunch they take it away from him and send a letter that if you do it again they will call child welfare.Lots of drugs and crime though.We do got the best in that.

        • Thx0538 – sorry about your tough issues and the loss of your favourite calibre.

          I love my Ruger 10/22. A couple of things: CCI is the best (velocitor, stinger, mini-mag) as far as I’ve used; Ruger 10 rnd factory mags are THE most reliable, & you can get a tri-mag adapter for 30 rnds at the magwell (25 rnders are hit & miss in my experience of using 3 diff. brands).

          Good shooting!

        • Excellent choice for a long gun. The 10/22 is accuate and extremely reliable. Your money was well spent. May I make a recommendation for a handgun? I bought a Walther P22…expensive piece of junk. I then bought a Bersa Thunder .22. Mags are expensive but this thing is built like a tank and very accurate. Looks almost like a PPK. Price at Bud’s Guns (online dealer) 275 USD.

    • NB: a volquartsen extractor claw can’t hurt. Cheap, easy to install, and is an improvement over the factory extractor

51. Retired USAF Security Police. Have a Taurus 38 snubbie for home defense. Beretta Neos 22 4.5 inch barrel for practice. Also have NAA Pug 22 magnum for carry. Awesome little gun for up close personal protection. When I shoot the Pug mini mag at the range it sure gets alot of attention. You don’t need a cannon for personal carry. Practice, practice and practice!!

    • The Taurus ,38 snubby is an excellent hand gun. With +P ammo, it has she stopping power of something between a 9mm and .40 caliber but it is very snappy using that ammo. It is also a bit more difficult to conceal than a .380 or ultra compact 9mm. My preference for CC is my Bersa Thunder .380 using JHP +P ammo. Nice thing about revolvers is they never jam and with a speedloader, it takes just a bit more time than swapping out a magazine. Very good choices you have made for self defense handguns.

    • The NAA magnum is a kick butt little handgun. Do not let the size fool you. It will drop a perp in short order and is a true pocket pistol. No need to stuggle to get your piece out of a shoulder or IWB holster. It may well be my next purchase as a backup piece.

    • How you doing Dr. Rod? I would highly reccomend that little Pug as a back up piece! More accurate than many want to acknowledge! In the military I fired and carried M-60 machine guns, 203 40mm grenade launchers, AK-47, AR-15. The M-16 was prone to jamming. Wasn’t that impressed! With just a bit of practice anyone can master the Pug. Best wishes!

52. Assault weapons (misnomer concocted by the media to make them sound ominous. They are really military or battle rifles) ban right around the corner. Quomo of NY is point man on the State level. the Obamanator wants to have it in place by the end of January. In addition there will restrictions on amount of ammo you can buy. Do not delay in getting your reloading equipment NOW!!! The tax may raise the price of a brick of .22 from $25 to $250 so stock up now men.

53. Good article overall.
    My daughters shoot a P22 because of the small grip. No problems with CCI ammo. A .22 @ 1200 fps or hollow point at 1600 fps will do plenty of damage. For accuracy I’d take my 8 year old daughter over 90% of the guys at the range shooting their cannons. At 30 ft all daughters can put 10 in a 10 inch diameter pattern in under 10 seconds. Anyone that thinks the little. 22 won’t neutralize is invited to stand in front of them. You won’t be standing very long.

54. I tried to find some extra high cap magazine for my Ruger P89. Everyplace is sold out!!! Buds guns is completely sold out of inventory. Even Luckygunner Ammo is out of .22lr. I had a suspicion that Obama would try a gun ban in his 2nd term. However, my belief pressure is being put on him by the global elite. Something is coming down my friends. I personally believe it is going to either be another terrorist attack or something to do with the economy resulting in massive civil disorder.

55. This has been a very interesting discussion. Let me suggest a few points.

    First, it may be possible to criticize the study by Ellifritz by saying that it does not prove that the .22 is of comparable effectiveness for self defense compared to larger caliber firearms. However, I think it is fair to say that, based on the data alone, one cannot make a convincing argument that most of the other calibers are significantly more effective than a .22.

    Second, considering the legally defensible fact that the purpose of a defensive weapon is to cause the assailant to break off an attack or to neutralize an immediate threat, the one statistic that is most relevant is missing from the study, namely the percentage of incidents where the assailant continued an attack after a weapon was pulled by. Lacking the data we can only speculate, but my speculation is that there is probably not a lot of difference between the calibers.

    Third, according to anecdotal stories, most incidents never result in either an attack or a continuation of an attack, or a shooting once a weapon is pulled. It seems that the sight of a gun is usually enough to deter the bad guy. That alone would tend to equalize the effectiveness of various calibers. Of those that result in a shooting I would bet that there are probably at least a high a percentage of hits from the .22 caliber weapons as the higher caliber weapons, if not more, and I would also bet that once a person is hit it is almost always enough to cause him to break off the attack, pretty much regardless of the caliber of weapon used to shoot him. To put it in simple terms, in cases where a gun is pulled by one under threat, there would seldom be cases where the assailant just kept coming. This, of course, is speculation, but in the absence of data, speculation and anecdotes are about the best we can do.

56. Can anyone tell me briefly why a few commenters say Military police shootings with 9mm FMJ’s would skew the statistics in 9mm’s favor? Other than the category would have more ‘professional’ shooter’s than the others?

    I’m a novice but I’d think it would do the opposite.

57. Here is a thought about misfires with a .22 caliber. When carrying a .22 caliber weapon for self defense just buy whatever ammo the competitors in biathlon events use. They can’t afford misfires in competition, so their ammo is going to be very reliable.

    If cost is a consideration then practice with the cheap stuff and carry the good stuff. One box of the good stuff will probably last many lifetimes in a concealed carry application, considering that most people will go a lifetime and never actually fire a shot in anger with the weapon they carry for self defense.

58. The wound from 8-9 shots .22 LR is very similar to a the wound of a single blast of 12 Gage OO Buck (without the recoil, blast, and noise)

    SW Model 617 10 ea .22″ holes 40 grains @ 1200 fps +/-
    12 Gage OO Buck 8 ea .33″ holes 53 grains @ 1200 fps +/-

59. FYI, with my being a 5’2″ woman, my 22 revolver fits nicely in places without a holster; doesn’t seem to draw any attention, even when guys are looking for a CCW. It’s my best “piece of mind” when I am out late. I liked this article, b/c now I have a response when friends find out I’m only carrying a “little 22” and snicker.

    • Thank you to whoever opened this can of worms. Great article!
      When I was a teenager, I golfed. I took lessons. I bought a full set of great clubs. . I practiced at the range.
      I got pretty good.
      I went golfing with a guy who only used a Driver, a 7 iron and a putter.
      He handily played better and scored better with fewer ‘bad shots’.
      I asked him why he only used 3 clubs.
      He said “it’s easier to sling the golf bag and carry my clubs and The 3 clubs he carried were the only clubs he liked and could use well.
      KISS. Do you like your gun? Is it fun to practice with it? Do you rabbit or bird hunt? Do you like taking your gun to the range, for fun?
      Hats off to the practical clear thinking lady with the gun she likes in her purse!
      She will be able to stay safe.
      Your handgun too big for cc?
      Get a purse, backpack, briefcase, clutch. If you’re a hobo, get a better knapsack on the end of your stick and try to use the stick on the bad guy before you shoot him!

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62. The biggest problem I have with the 22 as a defensive cartridge is not its power, it is its reliability to fire. Rimfire ammunition is statistically more susceptible to misfires than centerfire. The first priority in any defensive gun is that it work when you need it. Click when you should have heard bang is a very loud sound.

    • I keep reading comments about .22 caliber ammo producing a higher percentage of misfires than center fire ammo. I would be very interested in seeing the statistical studies demonstrating that contention.

      In the thousands of .22 rounds I have fired I don’t recall ever having a misfire, with one possible exception where I tried firing an unfired round I found at the range that had a primer strike mark on the round.

      I figure that of all the many variables in a self-defense situation, the chances of a misfire are among the least of your worries, particularly if your firearm has not been altered to lighten the force of the primer strike.

63. Great article!

    The more I read the endless debate over the best caliber/bullet weight, the more my eyes glaze over. As a correctional officer and community supervision officer, I worked with thugs for over 15 years and came to conclusion of that none of them are gonna stick around to take a second round of any caliber. Nor did I ever meet the methed-out, roid-raged, body building, psychotic, undead, sex-offending biker dude that I keep seeing released on all the gun forums by the guy trying to convince us that we all need to be packing a tricked-out Kimber in .45acp

    Having years of personal experience working with thugs (some of whom were mentally ill and who did have serious drug addictions) and watching video of the 1981 Reagan assassination attempt, I’m convinced that my two NAA .22wmr mini revolvers are all I’m ever gonna realistically need. I’ve got a stock Pug and a basic model with over-sized grips. Why two? One if for the New York reload.

    Hinckley dropped a police officer, a secret service officer, and a press secretary with one shot each from a short-barreled pistol chambered for .22wmr. They were instantly taken out of the fight, although none were killed. He also got the President, but luckily that round ricocheted before it hit him. Had it been a direct hit, and Reagan did not have an alert security detail that hustled him into the limo and rushed him to the hospital, then he would have also dropped like a stone and expired in a matter of minutes.

    The .22lr (and it’s larger cousin, the .22wmr) work just fine for self-defense. Knowing what I know today, I regret buying any guns other than my Bersa .380 Thunder and my .two NAA minis. The Bersa is used for CHL qualifications, and the NAA minis are my daily carries. My other three guns (a Taurus Model 85, a S&W 640, and a VZ-82) sit in my gun locker. I gave my LC9 to my oldest son. That’s a lot of money wasted on guns that don’t give me any real advantage over my two NAA minis.

    Then there is all the ammo. I can buy a box of Hornady Critical Defense .22wmr for dang-near half the price of a box of WWB .38spcl FMJ. That means that for $14, I can train with the same ammo I use for self-defense. If worse comes to worse and I can’t get hold of any of the dedicated self-defense stuff, I can still use plain old Winchester .22wmr for $10 and that is still gonna be an effective – just not as effective.

    When it’s all said and done, I’ll just happily go about my business with a .22 revolver and feel 100% confident that it will do the job. I’ll let the bullet heads endlessly argue the merits of their bigger bore favorites, and laugh at outlandish scenarios that they continually play out in their heads. I’m secure in my manhood, and I know that determination, proficiency, and shot placement trump all other considerations.

    • “Nor did I ever meet the methed-out, roid-raged, body building, psychotic, undead, sex-offending biker dude that I keep seeing released on all the gun forums”

      Hilarious! And so very true.
      I think a magazine full of CCI Stingers will work perfectly well 99.9% of the time.

64. The 22lr is on par with a 12g shotgun to incapacitate someone in 1 shot? Sometimes you just have to look at the numbers and call bull#$#%. There is no way a 12g and a 22 have the same stopping effect on someone. If it is, that is not from being wounded, that is just someone incapacitated from laughing to hard to continue the attack after you shoot them with a 22.

65. A hog leg may be to big and to slow, first good placed hits are the best answer to end a fight. Better than that , Run if you can, be alive to fight another day. Peace be with all.

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68. Worked as a deputy sheriff and as armed security at the local medical center , had a chance to see quite a few shootings , especially with the .22lr , Dr. Rod is right most wounds to center mass caused death in most cases and some of these were at the scene of the shooting , as for the head shots if penetration was acquired , mostly through the face the perp was killed and most of these were also at the scene . A lot of folks seem to under estimate the .22lr , if most the autos jam stay away from them , get a .22lr or .22mag revolver . I got my wife a Charter Arms Pathfinder in .22lr with the 2 inch barrel , it is the same size as my DAO undercover , and only weights 19 oz compared to 16oz for my .38 , she has no trouble putting all six shots center mass in less than 4 seconds , center mass is where I have always been trained to shoot because these shots do the best in stopping a perp from continuing the fight . All I can say is if all I have is a .22lr handgun then I am still well armed ,because your best weapon besides your brain is what weapon you have with you along with training with that weapon until it is second nature that you know your and its limitations . Be prepared and ready . Keep your powder dry .

69. Oh , I did forget to say that her Pathfinder is somewhat personally customized for her , I sent the PF in to Charter Arms , and had them install the DAO hammer , it is the same one for the Undecover .38 special a, plus her favorite color is green , and they happen to have the full combat grip in green , she really loves the little .22 lr especially it being customized for her , hey she always buys me firearms for Christmas , so I wanted to fix something up nice for her . My next firearm for her is a Ruger 10/22 , stainless with a green stock , I think she will like it too . Be prepared and ready . Keep your powder dry .

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73. CAVEATS FOR 22LR CONCEAL CARRY SELF DEFENSE: To me it MUST be a quality 22 REVOLVER ( NO semi’s ) with 8 or more cylinders…..&…….MUST be quality copper or copper washed solids ( NO HP’s – CCI Velocitors come to mind as 1 good example of a “MUST be” ). These caveats would make me very confident with a 22lr concealed carry handgun, absolutely.

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75. I carry a Walther P22 everyday, I own much larger calibers, but find them to heavy to comfortable carry. I’ve come to believe that shot placement is the key, and that means practice. .22lr allows that. Also most if not all of the “whacko’s” I’ve seen on recent shoot outs have been wearing body armour, it will be a head shot that will bring them down. I’d rather hit with a .22 than miss with a .45

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78. I LOVE this discussion! It hits me right between the hambones. I hope I’m not weighing in too late.
    Risking TMI, I’m going to give a little background. I’m a 62 year old average American male. I hadn’t shot anything other than a .22 revolver in my Boyscout days. But with the government we’ve been saddled with and what is going on in our streets, I started thinking seriously about self defense a couple of years ago. My wife’s attitude was “I don’t want a gun in the house unless we both know how to use it”. Hot damn!! So we went gun shopping.

    We talked to several nice people at the gun shop (including a woman) who all pulled out semi autos to sell her for a first time ever gun. My wife does commercial sewing for a living and has had three hand surgeries – couldn’t even jack the slides. Finally a nice young guy came over who turned out to be the gunsmith and recognized the problem. He pulled out a sweet little Ruger .22 LCR and my wife said the words I never thought I’d hear her say: “That’s the gun I want!”. I wasted no time in completing that transaction.

    I took a different path. I had in my possession a “Deutsche Werke” 7.6 mm semi auto my Dad took from a German prisoner in WWII. I had the same gunsmith clean and test fire it for me and we both took a CCW class before we ever fired the weapons. One of the coolest things I’ve ever done! With all the years and use this gun has seen (wish it could tell me its story!), the slide works like butter on a hot day. It’s a blast (pun intended) to shoot, but because of me being a newbie, a cumbersome magazine release, and no safety, I don’t feel comfortable with this gun as my SD weapon. So I’ve been thinking about another gun – doesn’t everybody?

    Again, due to my newbie-ness I’ve been thinking of a smaller caliber weapon, but with a little more authority. So my search has been narrowed to either a Taurus (model 941) .22 magnum, a .32 magnum, or possibly a .32 L. (I’m looking for something with a modest recoil that will increase accuracy and that my wife can shoot.) I can’t quite yet get a handle on the availability of the .32 ammo, although I see it’s mostly available wherever I look, albiet a little more expensive. However, .22 ammo, especially the heavier and HP rounds, are nowhere to be found (as of end of January, ’15). What the hell is going on? Is it temporary or will .22 ammo be scarce in the foreseeable future? Would I be better off getting the .32 just for the availability of the ammo? OK, I’ve nailed myself to the cross – ready, aim, fire!

    • sounds like a Keltec PMR30 might be in your future

      • Looks pretty sweet, but I think my next purchase will be a revolver.

        But what about the ammo situation? After my previous post, I did some research and saw all the conjectures and opinions about what’s driving the shortage. I saw numerous writers assure us that we were on the cusp of a great release in anxiety and therefore, a big reduction in demand and lower prices. All of those articles were written in the summer of 2014. Here we are in the middle of the winter of 2015 and it’s no better. I guess you can never give our “community-organizer-in-chief” enough credit concerning his ability to manufacture unease and discontent. The real question is; will it get any better and when?

        • I think it’s going to be dribs-and-drabs with 22LR for quite a long time.
          EG/ CCI is apparently still waaaay behind on orders…like a year!
          And it’s worse here in Canada than in the USA I hear.
          22WMR seems more available though.

          Let us know what you buy. (You lucky Americans have so much more choice in handguns. Yes, that’s envy you hear…)

79. You folks in the Great White North may be envious of our gun laws, but right now it seems as though your government has bigger balls than ours. See if you “hosers” can hold down our northern front if you can, cause we don’t seem to have the will to fight our way out of a paper bag – at least until the next election. (God save us from the Hil-da-beast!) 🙂

    I will let you know what I buy. Went to the closest location for a Taurus dealer today – they had closed their doors! The next two closest locations are actually pawn shops! Not sure what that means…

80. Went to Walmart today and asked for ANY type of .22 ammo. The sales clerk just started shaking his head. When I asked if any was on its way, he just said maybe once or twice a month…

81. This article and subsequent posts remain timely and relevant going on three years. Congrats to you Leghorn! Nice job.

    As a civilian concealed carry defensive solution, a small 22LR semi-auto is your best choice … as long as you do what you’re supposed to. Tune it yourself or have a gunsmith fluff and buff it for you; run 300-500 rounds through it to wear it in; keep it clean and lubed; find out what ammo it likes best (hint: try 40gr CCI Mini-Mags); learn what you can do with it out to about seven yards using crumpled Weaver stance, point-shooting, and standard NRA aimed-fire techniques; get comfortable wearing it; make sure it stays absolutely-always-completely concealed whenever you carry; learn to stay alert to your surroundings and especially other people’s behavior; and figure out how to take a lot of crap from yahoos without losing your cool, if you aren’t already tempermentally gaited that way. Notice how most of this applies no matter what you carry!?

    Incapacitation at close ranges has very little to do with caliber. At close range, muzzle velocity = terminal velocity. Muzzle energy varies proportional to bullet mass times the square of velocity. Bullet cross-sectional area varies by the square of the radius. This is just junior high math. When you crunch the numbers, depth of penetration turns out to depend on just what you would expect it to: more energy spread over smaller area penetrates deeper. In terminal ballistics, this is sometimes called “energy density”. Stay with me …

    Because a 45 has twice the diameter of a 22, it has four times the cross section. To get equal penetration it needs 4x the muzzle energy as a 22. If you run the numbers for various handgun calibers, taking into account projectile grain weight and diameter, and real muzzle velocity (don’t believe the numbers on the ammo boxes … use a chronograph or get your data from those that do) you get a big surprise. Energy density does not track caliber! In fact, the energy density (think of it as penetrating ability) of various common handgun/ammo combinations really doesn’t have that big a spread, and the smaller calibers fare quite well overall, particularly with slightly longer barrels and/or hotter loads. As a matter of fact, 40 grain CCI Velocitor 22LR launched by a target pistol with five inch or longer barrel is quite amazing, penetration-wise. But I digress. Even a 22LR pocket pistol with 3.5″ barrel is plenty deadly enough. Because, stay with me …

    The probability you will hit something to incapacitate an attacker is not determined by the diameter of the bullet. It is determined by the size group you can put into a zone that represents an attacker’s chest, neck and head at the distance you are shooting from. A 45 caliber bullet has an insignificantly higher probability of hitting something vital than a 22 caliber bullet. Not twice more likely because of twice the diameter, nor four times more likely because of four times the area. Insignificantly more likely, because no matter the caliber, you have to hit something that counts. When the experts say, “shot placement is priority one” they aren’t just blowing smoke. That’s what the statistical science says, too. And that’s partly why we’re trained to double tap or squeeze off a short string. Under duress at short range, you might have a vital hit probability of 15% per round … if you train. Finally, stay with me …

    Negligible recoil, minimal muzzle flip, light weight, reasonable capacity in a concealable size, quick reloads, cheap practice ammo, and penetration equal to or better than other calibers all argue in favor of the 22LR being a very good defensive solution. In my opinion, and I’ve been studying this for a while now, it’s your best choice. Just be sure to train with the cheap bulk ammo and spend the extra nickel per round on the good stuff in your carry magazine(s). Practice clearing malfunctions at the range never hurt anyone either. Good habits stay with you in crunch times.

    May God spare each and every one of you from ever having to shoot anyone, AR

82. A friend of mine looked at the article and commented that the results might be skewed from point blank attacks by the mob who apparently like this caliber and small weapon size to do execution style kills. I think he has an interesting point.

    To me it seems the trade-off might be rounds for size. If I can get 8 or 10 rounds into a small revolver of .22 caliber but only 5 rounds on a .38, I might be in an advantage. If I can get 30 rounds into one rifle magazine, in a home defense situation, I can fire rapidly and hit just as well. This might be a very good option for a weaker defender who isn’t ready to handle the shot gun.

83. A few years ago I took a CCW class. After the class we went to the range to “qualify”. The vast majority of people carried a semi auto in the 380 or 9mm class. What struck me was how poorly those folks actually shot. Many of their shots totally missed the target! They blazed away as fast as they could pull the trigger. A few women were using .22 target pistols and were putting their shots dead center. Amazing. So I look back and have to say those women using the .22’s were much better off than those blowing lead downrange and half their shot missing. Think of the people they would be endangering with those wild shots. It’s not the cartridge, it’s where you put them that counts.

84. I grew up shooting a .22 shorts only Remington 241 semi-auto at running jack rabbits mostly on wheat stubble on flat ground. Until I started wearing glasses I could kill 90% of them that got up inside 100 yards. No one I hunted with but dad and one neighbor ever beat me with Long Rifles or anything else, they could beat me with a bolt action shooting .22 shorts.

    Shot placements the thing. I sure wouldn’t carry a .22 if I had anything else. I do carry a Kel Tec .380, S&W 649-2 38 Special and CZ-75 P-07. If I need a accurate shot in anything but bright sun the snub nosed 38 with Laser Grips comes out because these old eyes have trouble with sights in bad light.

    Red

    “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.” – Thomas Paine

85. Ok here’s the thing on a 22 LR that most people don’t consider…it is used by most people to put down animals for slaughter. I myself have shot a 2000 pound Charolais bull in the head at 5 feet…he hit the ground like lightning struck. Slug did NOT penetrate the skull, but again he went down. Lastly the Reagan assassiation was conducted with a .22 LR EVERYONE HIT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE FIGHT BY HINKLEY. The president almost died from a ricochet!

    Hit what you aim at and you’ll live another day…

86. Others have alluded to this, but those charts are WILDLY misleading and virtually useless. This is due to a variety of factors, but a few off the top of my head:

    1. The shotgun mortality is going to be the highest since shotguns are almost always going to be deployed at very close range. When was the last time you heard about a drive-by shooting with a shotgun or a stray buckshot barrage hitting an unintended target? By nature, anyone shooting a shotgun will be doing so at very close range. This is going to increase the mortality rate big time.

    2. As far as the normal bullets comparison, these numbers can’t be trusted because of the different types of people/situations that use certain types of ammo. The sample is never going to be accurate unless all variables are controlled. Certain types of ammo are going to be more likely to be used by the police/military, others by gang members, and still others by marksmen. There is simply no way to make an accurate comparison without controlling for the variables of what kinds of people typically use the ammo and how those people typically use the ammo.

    At the end of the day, like all tools, a gun is only as good as the person using it. Getting the drop on someone (offensively or defensively)–and connecting a shot (or shots) to the proper area–is always going to trump everything else, including caliber.

87. Situational awareness, tactical proficiency, anyone??? Martial buzz words or phrases to be sure, but paying attention to what’s going on around you, combined with practice/practice/practice, and maybe a bit more practice, can go a very long way towards maximizing your chances of survival in a lethal force encounter. As a former grunt repairman (medic & PA), I can’t overstate the value of being able to run 3-5 miles either. Someone very maturely mentioned being able to swallow a mega dose of yahoo/redneck BS earlier; there is a fella in our county alive today because this doc decided said fella’s insistence on acting the fool didn’t warrant the death penalty. Just thought I’d mention that to remind all of the level of care and responsibility we MUST exercise when we choose to carry.

    Keep yer powder dry and your wits about ya’
    Stevie D.

88. This is ridiculous! Your seriously claiming a .22LR will not penetrate the human skull? This is what happens when people have too much free time on their hands, and allow their ideas to replace facts. If a person was shot eight times in the head with a .22lr, and it did not penetrate? Either the guy was very lucky, Or this doctor is full of something we all are full of after eating lots of navy beans. We are talking about a projectile moving at or above 1000fps. That is going to penetrate any skull. I agree the .22LR is not the best choice for self defense. Because in a situation were you need to shoot, most people no matter how good they are, will not be as accurate as they were at the range. So a bigger and harder hitting bullet makes much more sense. But any bullet made can penetrate the human skull. The .22LR has been used many times during assassinations because it’s quiet and easy to hide. It was a .22LR from a Iver cadet that killed Bobby Kennedy. And I think everyone will agree with me that RFK was shot in the head and killed.

    • 22 with subsonic shorts is a favorite weapon of the mob. First shot goes to the back of the head then two more in the heart. Makes little sound.

89. I have various handguns in .32 and 9mm. However, I also have severe cervical stenosis and shooting large rifles/shotguns is bad news. I opted for a couple of Henry lever action .22 magnum rifles as a backup/home defense choice. 11 shots as fast as I can work the lever and I can work the lever pretty fast on them Henry’s. Works for me.

90. I wouldnt want to get shot with anything from a slingshot up to a 338 nonetheless i still carry my .22 because i simply love it . I feel you can keep on target , with no recoil and put 10 bullets into center mass game over as for penetraton a .22 solid will go clean through 1/8 inch STEEL it surely will go through a skull

91. I recently changed my EDC gun from 9mm to 22 LR (M&P 22 Compact). At 75 the arthritis in my hands was just making it impossible for me to maintain accuracy. I tried 380, but not much better. With the 22 I can get 5 rounds into a 2 inch group at 25 feet in three seconds. I feel quite secure with the 22 because I know that accuracy and speed of rounds on target are determining factors in a gunfight.

    I did four tours in Nam. Two as Marine infantry then two off when I went to recon school. Then two more tours in recon doing lrrps and special missions. The special missions were usually to take out a NVA officer. Accuracy was critical cause you don’t get much of a chance to hang around after the first shot is fired so a lethal hit was what it was all about. We did not use a rifle or M1911. We used Ruger Standards in 22LR and went for a head shot. The gun was so relatively quite the foe did bit hear if go bang because of the background noise in his area. The Standard was the predecessor to the Mark1. The Standard was very accurate when compared to a M1911 and much quieter. There is no question a 22LR will penetrate a human skull, and we did not have the great ammo that is available today. Illegal can ricochet ff the curved parts of the skull so we shot for the side of the skull, the eyes, the forehead. We always arranged a trip for the target to visit his ancestors.

    I have shot almost 3,000 rounds of Mini Mag RN and HP through my M&P 22 compact. Have not had a single failure to feed, fire, or eject. The good ammo is the key to reliability. No bulk ammo for me. That is the stuff failures are made of.

    Enough said. My personal experience gives me confidence that the 22LR will get the job done if you can get the rounds in the right target space.

92. There is only one thing to say about the 22lr debate…. go ask Archduke Ferdinand how WWI started…. Oh, that’s right, you can’t, he was assassinated with a 22lr to kick off the war proper…

93. I ALWAYS have my NAA 22 LR-HG unless I’m in my underwear.. Even with a tucked in shirt it looks like a pocketknife in my front pocket. Its accessible, comfortable and concealable I oftentimes forget im carrying it. I get over 12″ of ballistic gel penetration out of the short little NAA barrel with 36 gr CCI .cphp and the oversize handle helps keeps them in the 8 ring and the bull if I go slow.

94. Very interesting data. Thank you.

    This old coot finally traded down to a .22LR pistol for two reasons. First, my arthritis finally made operating my Glock 26 slide very painful and almost impossible. Second, I moved to a tropical climate (shorts and with no beer gut I tuck in my t-shirt). No open carry allowed. So I have a 13 oz. 8+1 pistol with a flip-up barrel! Love it. Practice regularly. Feel safe (and comfortable) carrying it virtually everywhere. I sure as heck wouldn’t want to stand in front of it.

95. I just got done watching biathlon in the Olympics… didn’t see a single misfire of the .22 caliber rifles they use. They wouldn’t be using .22 caliber rifles in biathlon if failure to fire statistics were as bad as some on this thread are suggesting.

96. One point often missed in these stats is that they are based on “hits”. I have not seen stats that included misses. Trained police hit 10=20% of shots fired. With my 22 I can almost always make a single hole with 11 rounds. Maybe a flier but still in the X ring. 90% of all gun fights will be at 10 yards and 80% of those at 5 yards. And these are “or less”

    If someone enters my house while sleeping I won’t have glasses or ear protection. I won’t be even close to a perfect stance. Likely shooting with one hand. Either hand I can manage all in the 10 ring at house distances. No recoil so I don’t have to reaquire the target. I can drop all 11 rounds into the bad guy.

    I am talking strictly home defense. I also have a Glock 40 or 10mm handy and an AR fairly handy. Use the handgun to get to the rifle.

    I also have a suppressor on the 22. If I fire the Glocks in my bedroom my wife and I will have permanent hearing damage up to being deaf for life. Tactically it is nice to hear if you have more than one opponent. So 22 first and if time to reload that is enough. But I can switch up from 10mm to AR with a little time.

    For carry when not at home I carry one of the Glocks when it is cool enough to conceal with a vest or coat. But when it is 110 out I wear cargo shorts and a t shirt. I have a cargo pants holster for a Baretta bobcat in 22 and several spare mags. Not ideal but comfortable and invisible.

    Don’t knock the 22. With CCI mini mags the little Baretta will penetrate 5 or 6 full soda cans. Good enough. Energy is mass time velocity squared. So a few hundred FPS adds a lot of energy. I can rapidly place 8 rounds in 5 inches at 10 yards all day long. Again no recoil to force me to reacquire the target. Prefer to carry a 10mm just can’t do it in a t shirt and shorts.

    Everyone is different but the main points are you have to hit the target and shot placement counts. Caliber is secondary.

97. Whatever you use, EMPTY THE MAGAZINE IN THE JERK! Police are notorious for emptying their guns in people, why can’t you? Why shouldn’t you?

    .22? Would you let someone shoot you with it-NO!
    -gut shots will get their attention, especially if you use a full magazine! Learn anatomy. Their are lots of vitals to choose from (sarcasm added).

    All jests aside, if you can avoid a fight, do so. If you can’t, make damn sure you win it. Shooting someone is ugly business, so if you are going to do it, do it right, and don’t play the nice guy and get yourself killed. Guns hold multiple rounds for a reason, so use them.

    Being willing, being trained to shoot, and being able to overcome that nervous fear leading up to shooting an A-hole will go a long way no matter what gun you have. Let’s all hope and pray that we never have to pull the trigger on another human being.

98. James Bond was reluctant to give up his Beretta 418 .25 ACP (before he was issued his Walther PPK 7.65mm) for a reason. 😉

99. This is why it is important to know the range of the Wi-Fi booster you have decided to take home. Most come with a 300 feet average range increase while others even have thousands of feet range increase. Of course some have as little as 100 feet range increase.

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