Ask the FFL Mailbag: The ATF’s Backlog and Legally Dealing With AR Lowers

1. I worked at the IRS. When production was down and a department started falling way behind, they would dump thousands of unprocessed tax returns into nearby dumpsters. Happened in Philadelphia. Another time an individual person who was also falling behind took returns home in order to catch up. He burned them in his fireplace.

   I never saw any of this, but it was pretty much agreed to as fact inside the dep’t. whan I was there.

   • Your comment seem unrelated to the article, plus is 100% BS. Thanks though, good first comment.

     • Did similar stuff in the USMC. People would outright forge their transcripts and certifications to get caught up on annual training bullshit.

       Screwing over paperwork and sweeping punishments under the rug is common practice.

       • Yeah, for that situation where it’s essentially just CYA busywork I believe it. With the IRS and ATF people are expecting something tangible (a tax return or a ‘tax’ stamp) so no, they’re not throwing away dumpsters’ worth of forms.

2. “If A DEALER does the activity of removing the stock, installing an arm brace and indicating the sale as a pistol – and the Form 4473 indicated it was a pistol at time of transaction, the activity would look on their bound book as follows:”

   No, it wouldn’t, because, as you said above, it remains a frame/receiver until it has an upper attached. It would be no different than changing the grip on the lower assembly at that point. It should still be recorded as frame/receiver in the disposition block.

   • If you read further, he is explaining what it would look like. He then addresses why that would not actually happen.

     You can describe an illogical act and wait a paragraph to tear it apart, and that’s what he did.

3. I just got a suppressor out of jail and took 13 months FYI
   Still waiting on two more, I hate to say it but it is what it is

   • I just received mine also. 11 months from purchase. I was a little impatient towards the end. Can’t imagine waiting another 2 months. Would be even worse for a second one now that I know how super awesome they are!

     • Try waiting 23 months. That happened to me on my 2nd muffler.

   • My FFL said ATF promised to bring wait times doen to 3 months in 2019, at least for suppressors. I’m not holding my breath, especially if they have to wait for FBI. He also said the neat scannable submissions don’t really speed things up. They sit in the same pile as all the other apps, and they save a couple minutes of keyboard entry once they get to the top of the pile. Luckily, my FFL has a range and let’s me use my items on the premises while waiting for the stamp.

   • That attitude is why we all have to put up with this crap…

     The “EEYORE” mentality…whelp, it just is what it is…

     I like how a company like Magpul will produce 30rd mags and willingly thumb their nose at a State Statute like Colorado’s ban on “high capacity mags” by flooding the market with contraband but no company will just flood the market with cheap mufflers and thumb their nose at ridiculous federal bans…

     Where’s all this civil disobedience we’re supposed to be all about???

4. The second question is the same one I asked “ask an FFL” a while back and got into a deep and long winded conversation about.

   This is my understanding.

   The short version is.

   Form 4473 has 3 slots available. Rifle, Pistol, Any other firearm.

   If its not a complete Rifle, and not a complete Pistol, it gets the box Any Other Firearm.
   Hence the TAC14’s and such. But also any firearm part that has a serial number. Now.

   So, in the above scenario, you aren’t buying a rifle or a pistol, just a “completed” lower. There is no need for the dealer to do anything. You just buy it, then you can put a brace on, or stock, whatever you want. ONCE it is connected to a complete UPPER, it then becomes a complete firearm. Then it depends on local laws if you can have a pistol, etc. Whole new conversation as state by state varies.

   Seems in both my question and this one the FFL answering has gotten hung up on the terminology when somebody says “file a form 4473” or “register using a 4473” etc…

   I believe most of it is habit and that a lot of people don’t know where their 4473 goes after they fill it out and leave their dealer.

   The real question is, does swapping parts on an AR15 really match the definition of “manufacturing firearms”.
   I believe NO, as you are not changing the specifications of the weapon. The parts are made to spec.

   Example. Nobody would arrest a dealer for mounting a scope to a firearm.

   So why would you arrest a dealer for “manufacturing without a license” for adding a floating hand guard.

   Or… Adding an extended butt support, Adding a pistol brace…

   Thoughts.

   • As I recall (it was a few years back) when I filled out the 4473 for my suppressor, it was listed as “any other firearm”, which busted me up, since it is clearly NOT any manner of a firearm at all.

     The idea that there are no limitations on how long this can take, well, that’s just wrong. “Shall not be infringed” makes very clear the limitation, and ALL this crap is unconstitutional.

   • Good grief!

     You really need to read up on ITAR.

     Accurizing is one of the many things covered.

     • The “I” in ITAR stands for INTERNATIONAL.

       Maybe you are the one who needs to read beterrrrerrrrr….

     • ITAR doesn’t supersede the COTUS.

5. Hopefully this person writing in for answers from the communist state of new jersey knows that he can not legally own a silencer in the state. otherwise just by possession even with appropriate paperwork he is committing a felony by state law. So hopefully the trust and nfa forms are for a different state then new jersey

   • “Hopefully this person writing in for answers from the communist state of new jersey knows that he can not legally own a silencer in the state.”

     Did you read the name?

     “Mr. Richard F. of Fort Lee, New Jersey writes in with a couple of questions. The first has to do with our recent article on ATF Error letters regarding Form 4 submissions:…”

     Mr. Richard F. of Fort Lee, New Jersey…

     Mr. Richard Feder of Fort Lee, New Jersey, who knows Roseanne Roseanneadana :

     This “Hank, the FFL” isn’t doing his credibility much good impersonating an old imaginary SNL character from back when SNL was actually funny :

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYGtXIqDa0

     • A. You cannot own a silencer in New Jersey.
       B. You cannot own an AR pistol in New Jersey.

       ‘Hank’ should have informed this guy both activities are illegal in the this state. No further information needed.

6. Months ago I contacted an agent of the BATF in Portland, Oregon by telephone. Reason:
   I have the opportunity to take back my late great uncles 1952 vintage 12 gauge Winchester Model 97 “hammer” pump action shotgun: 28″ modified choke barrel, Standard Grade. I haven’t seen shotgun since the 1970’s and would very much be elated to have it returned to my family. Unfortunately it’s in the hands of an elderly widow in Germany who is approaching 90 years of age. Anyway after telephoning the BATF in Portland, Oregon the agent instructed me to contact my FFL dealer in Klamath Falls Oregon by them calling in and requesting a No. 6 form. I was hoping to get the Winchester Model 97 shipped back into the United States before Christmas Day 2018.
   Well…nothing has happened? Why is this taking so damned long? I guess I will have to
   wait for Christmas next year in 2019 to receive shotgun, if I ever do! Thanks be (no may
   their legacy of political deceit, abuse, and corruption be damned) to Lyndon B. Johnson:
   the worst president of the United States, and his rotten treasonous lieutenant then in the
   U.S Senate, the late Thomas Dodd (D) of Connecticut, and their malevolent vindictive
   deceitful anti-gun class warfare and signing and framing of the oppressive socialist 1968 Federal Gun Control Act into federal legislation 50 years ago (1968)! GCA ’68
   never was about fighting or reducing violent crime, making our streets safer, morality,
   decency, public safety etc. No……it was always about “people control!” Also attempting
   to criminalize private American gun owners. On the net:

   JPFO, Inc. at http://www.jpfo.org. JPFO, Inc. is “America’s Aggressive Civil Rights Organization” and remains non NRA affiliated.

   • Let’s celebrate the 51st anniversary of the GCA by having it overturned by the Supreme Court (one can hope😌).

     • Lets hope so.

7. I hope today’s FFL EXPERT is better than yesterday’s Mental Health EXPERT.

8. For the record, my Form 4 took 6-1/2 months.
   Mailed in Feb, received in August.

9. Silencer or Suppressor?

10. Dude wants to know if he can put an sba3 on a built ar lower after he buys it. How is it not obvious what he wants to know. He is a consumer with minuscule knowledge of the minutiae of an FFL’s job. I know because I buy guns and have no idea about manufacturing and logging them, I don’t care. When I buy a lower the guy at the counter always says something like you can make it a pistol or rifle, but if if it was a pistol then you have to wait blah blah. Cabelas dude said that a guy that was 18 couldn’t buy a lower he special ordered because it could be made a pistol and that’s why he had all this nice and expensive seekins stuff in the glass. So FFL always says some weird stuff that probably belongs as a longer more in depth conversation thus confusing average Joe. Is it legal to make a weapon that was once a pistol into a rifle and is it legal to make a rifle into a pistol? If he makes a lower into rifle then changes his mind and slaps a brace on, is it legal? After he leaves the store. He just wants to dabble in the ar pistols not read a thesis on FFL digest.

    • legal or lawful. In a genuinely free country you should be ale to do pretty much whatever you want unless you actually CAUSE HARM and then you are liable. Be that Harm theft, vandalism, assault, murder, manslaughter. Every politician that ever votes for an increase in taxes should be charged with theft on a massive scale. one of the reasons the founders of the US went to war was taxes which were a minuscule amount compared to today. Yes it was only one of many but that was amongst the reasons and why they turfed the load of tea into the sea

    • It’s been my experience with FFL holders, like war veterans, the ones who talk the most, know the least.
      You can ask the same question to 20 FFL’s and get 20 COMPLETELY different answers!!!

      • Amen

    • Depends on how the receiver was intended to be or was reported to the ATF. For example, with the appropriate NFA form, a chopped Mossberg 590 Shockwave (firearm) can become an AOW or SBS, but a chopped Mossberg 590 shotgun only becomes a SBS, even though the receivers are physically and functionally identical. A rifle receiver can’t become a pistol, but can be a SBR with a NFA form. A pistol or undesignated receiver can legally be configured as a pistol or rifle (stock, 16″+ barrel, and 26″ overall length). Without a NFA form, you aren’t allowed to have a stock attached with a barrel combination that is less than the minimum barrel or overall length. Without a stock, you can put on any length barrel since a pistol has no maximum length. A pistol can become a SBR with a stock and NFA form.

11. For what it’s worth – I’m still waiting to take poessesion of my transferable FNC.

    That I bought on March 6, 2017.

12. What I understand is, is that what the serial numbered part comes into the FFL as is what it has to go out as. If the customer purchased a finished lower (with stock) and it shows as a ‘rifle’ lower on the FFL’s paperwork, it’ s a rifle. He can put a 16”+ barrel upper on it and be done, or he can go through the paperwork to legally convert it into a SBR; but it’s a rifle and converting it into a pistol without jumping through the hoops is, legally, just like converting any other rifle to a pistol: bad karma with the ATF.
    If he had purchased a finished pistol lower (with a pistol buffer tube) , it shows on the FFL paperwork as a pistol, the customer has a pistol.
    My question is, if you buy a stripped lower- never before finished as either a rifle or a pistol and in your FFL’s logbook as ‘other’ (since it is neither a rifle nor a pistol when it comes into his shop and goes out the same way)- and you do a pistol build on it, do you have to notify the ATF that it’s now a pistol? What about state laws for pistol purchasing?

    • I agree – the tricky part is was the item sold as a frame or was it sold as a rifle. IF it is a frame, do as you like within the definitions of “Rifle” and “Pistol”, but if it’s a rifle, that’s what it is…

    • Correct, the 4473 doesn’t ask what is all attached to the frame or receiver.
      It doesn’t know the color, the grips, the mag well flaring, etc…
      It simply asks if its a pistol, rifle, or any other firearm.

      For the who knows how many times its been said, the ATF designed that form that way for a specific reason!!! Too many “dealers” try to read too deep into it.
      ANY firearm you buy, the ATF only cares about the receiver, as it is the only traceable part.

      For example, here in PA (varies from state to state), you can buy a lower receiver, build it as a pistol, order a complete pistol upper, snap it together and have a pistol.
      Here’s the catch, you now have a pistol you never had to send in a pistol form to the Pa State Police for.
      Loophole? No… Why? Because the Pistol form is for pistol transfers, no transfer took place.
      The ATF know this, it is clear, as they also address the fact that a rifle lower and pistol upper together make an SBR, but apart they are just parts and yet, nobody goes to jail for “manufacturing firearms without a license” for snapping uppers on lowers.
      If people don’t stop digging into this I fear we will soon see a ban on AR’s because of their ability to easily convert to pistols or SBR’s without paperwork or gunsmiths.

      But by all means, keep writing letters to the ATF asking if making SBR’s at home and shouldering pistol braces is legal. Eventually, you’ll get your answer…..

13. The author is simply wrong in a couple of ways, with respect to fitting a frame up as a pistol for a customer.

    1) The book entries would show it coming in as a frame.
    2) when you make it into a pistol, you book it out as a pistol TO YOURSELF
    3) Then you make an entry booking it into yourself as a pistol.
    4) then you book it out as a pistol to the customer.

    The second error has to do with manufacturing vs gunsmithing. The ATF has said that if you do this kind of work in a speculative manner. In other words, you buy it, make the pistol and then offer it for sale. Its manufacturing.

    If you take a customer owned frame in for transfer and then do work on it. Its gunsmithing. This can be found in several ATF FAQs.

    Finally, a lot more shops are changing from an 02 FFL to an 07 simply because of the freedom it affords. Particularly in less gun friendly states that have specific carve outs in their laws for manufacturers that they don’t have for dealers.

    • You’re missing a step.

      For it to be a pistol, it would require a complete pistol length upper receiver. Without that, it is still just a receiver so the listing on the 4473 does not change.

      You’re right though, huge difference between gunsmithing and manufacturing. One of the biggest things is if you’re putting serial numbers on parts.

      • There is no “pistol length” upper requirement. A receiver without a stock and a 20″ barrel is as much a pistol as with a 4″ barrel. “Pistol length” uppers just mean they are not legal for rifles, but are ok for pistols, SBRs, and machine guns.

14. In CANADA, all things AR15, from ‘frame’ to completed ‘firearm’ – no matter what – is classed as “Restricted”.
    Ownership requires a license classification of ‘R.P.A.L.’ – Restricted Possession Acquisition License.
    This means, as I own several AR15’s in various forms,
    #1 – I need to be a member in good standing at a registered GUN CLUB.
    #2 – I can ONLY, for the activity of Target Shooting, I take them to and from the range or for repair to a registered gun smith.
    #3 – this trip CANNOT be deviated in any way – “I cannot make a side trip to any other location, as long as I have this Fire Arm in my possession – away from my home.
    In general THIS IS IT……
    I cannot HUNT in CANADA with an AR15 Fire Arm in ANY configuration..
    In this regard, American’s are lucky, so far, that an AR15 can be a rifle for hunting purposes.

    • Americans are lucky, unless they live in state, county or town that banned “assault weapons”. Then no shooting club membership is going to help them and they are completely out of luck.

15. How times have changed. A few years ago I purchased three silencers; one for a .380 rifle, and two for a couple of pistols in .22 and .45 plus an internally silenced Ruger .22. All together in one purchase. Six months later I had all of the above in my procession. In the process even talked to an ATF rep who said my paperwork was in the hands of one of the less competent employees (a woman) and said he would take them over and process them himself when I called to check on status. Can’t imagine even getting through to talk to someone today.

16. What’s so hard about this?
    Somebody buys a lower from you, I don’t care if it’s stripped, assembled, or complete with rifle stock.

    You 4473 it not as a rifle, pistol or shotgun, but as other.

    The customer takes it home, takes off the stock, puts a pistol upper on it, and now it’s a pistol. As long as he makes it into a pistol before ever making it into a rifle, and as long as he never makes it into a SBR without first paying the $200 tax and receiving approval, he’s all set.

    • The hard part is that it seems nearly 97% of FFL holders seem to grasp that.

      • *Don’t grasp that.

        Why can I not edit?

        • My edit was gone elsewhere too. WTF???

    • If the receiver came from the manufacturer with a stock, I would say that it cannot be a pistol since inclusion of a stock means it “was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.” To not be intended to be a rifle, the manufacturer could also included pistol-only parts (brace or pistol tube) (US v. T/C), or not include anything. If someone else added the stock, it wouldn’t be a problem.

17. I was mostly a firefighter/cardiac medic/fire chief for my 34 year career. I was called on many times to serve as the acting City Manager or the acting Police Chief. Never went to the academy but I was considered a pretty good administrator. During my numerous times as the acting Police Chief we had cause to run dozens of people through the same system the FBI/ATF/NFA uses… the NCIC computer database. We always ran full backgrounds on people and not just for the current state they lived in. It took more time to enter the information about the person in question and enter your user ID and password than it did for the check to come back. Adding the fingerprint factor does add time but we got fingerprint checks back in a week or so if it was a priority case. Gun stuff might take longer because it’s not necessarily a crime in progress.
    I have no idea why it takes ATF so long to get Form 4’s back to people although I hear at the range directly from my friends who are doing the process that some of them are getting Form 1’s approved in 3- 7 weeks.
    I have an SOT and was talking to one of the two women I talk to most of the time that work in the area that I need and I asked them if they take applications and put them in a box marked with a 10 month out date that says “Do Not Open until *****” She laughed and said no and she gets asked the “what is the status of my ***” a lot and she does not have a good answer for most people. She stated that after she reviews the form for clarity and correctness and runs the initial NCIC check they often have to wait a while for the fingerprint check to come back good but even then she said it didn’t take 10 months. Personally, I think they are all trucked to the warehouse at area 50 whatever and are stored next to the Ark of the Covenant box…
    Get an FFL and a SOT, make an honest effort to advertise and “be in the business” as it is against the ATF’s policies for a person to have an FFL and a SOT simply to buy guns for themselves and a few of the same friends. I know at least two FFL’s who lost their licenses for only transferring to themselves or the same few friends. I know another man who was advised by the ATF/FBI to get an FFL or stop selling so many guns. He did and life was good for him until he moved away from his licensed premises, dropped his FFL, later moved back “home” and started selling what they consider too many guns again and he has been advised that he appears to be “in the business” and needs to have a license. He is going blind now and not selling guns… I think I’ve had too much coffee….. Later

18. When I bought my first AR-15 lower a few years ago, I called ATF NFA branch. I told the guy I was buying a “stripped” lower. He asked if the lower had ever had any parts or stock on it. I answered, no, whereupon he informed me that it was a “virgin” lower. He said also that I could make it into a pistol or rifle, and could in the future convert the pistol into a rifle. But not the other way around. If the lower has a buttstock at any point, it’s a rifle.

19. Serious question….Why are Form 1s taking 2-4 weeks now if electronically filed?

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