Chinese GLOCK full auto switch (wish.com)
Chinese knock-off GLOCK full auto switch (wish.com)

Over a year ago, we wrote about Chicago police who were chasing down fake GLOCK full-auto pistol conversion kits. Thousands of the things had apparently been bought from Chinese knock-off specialists like Wish.com and similar sites that sold the kits in addition to cheap suppressors and other pirated junk (“EOTech sights,” “Benchmade” knives) that looks kinda like the real thing.

Now a suburban Chicago man has been arrested and charged by the ATF with selling a couple of the full-auto switches from China for as much as $500 a piece…to ATF informants.

In May, the ATF said thousands of the devices had been imported from China and that it had launched a nationwide recovery effort. In the past year, people in Alaska, California, Kansas, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico and New York and Rhode Island have faced similar charges of having machinegun converters.

In September, Goley sold two of the devices for $1,000 to an informant working for ATF and two more later that month to an undercover officer posing as the informant’s uncle for $700 outside a Lansing hotel, according to an ATF agent’s affidavit.

Goley is accused of offering to sell the officer at least 10 more converters at a discount of $275 each.

“It’s gonna go to the people who want to go shoot some people, gangbangers and sh—,” the affidavit says Goley told the officer. “These switches not no joke. Would you be able to get rid of 500 switches?”

The officer said he was interested in buying more.

— Frank Main in Feds: 2 men sold machinegun converter kits ‘for people who want to shoot some people’

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176 COMMENTS

    • I bought two cheap Wish.com sight sets for AR15s that were knock offs. They are OK for a cheap gun but the rear and forward pop up sights have a LOT of side play. This can be shimmed with tiny washers, which is what I will do. I compared them to my LMT and Troy sights today, the Chinese shit is an obvious joke. But, they cost 1/8th to 1/10th of the price and can be made to work for a range gun, so they are OK for the price. LMT and Troy quality is what you would take into a real battle.

      • Yep, people knock China trash but when I can get 15 bipods for the price of one uber fancy one, it’s worth noting. Work boots, if I get nine months out of a pair of American made boots that cost $100, but three months out of the $20 China trash boots, the Chinese ones win. 15 months of use time is much better than nine months of use time for the same $100.

        I’ll admit, I managed to get a pair of boots going passed 10 months now but I’ve babied them and added oils, which increases the time they need to last in order to be a better deal than the China knockoffs because it increased the price.

        There is a time and a place for expensive, high quality stuff, but it’s not often found among the slave class of America.

        • The slave class in America has gotten that way because they buy the cheap Chinese products. Yes, there are products that are not made in the US at all. Depending on Chinese work boots(or any cheap boots) will just leave you with aching feet. People bought cheap building supplies from China and ended up with wallboard that stank, even 20 years later.
          You get what you pay for and the American job that evaporates because of it could be yours.

        • I destroy footware like it’s my job with a step-count of 15,000/day (or more, usually a couple thousand more, but then I kick off most days with a 3 mile hike ~5,150 steps for me, more than most people do in a day) and I have to say;

          If you’re destroying a quality pair of work boots in 9 months then you’re either crazy like me in terms of what you do or you’re not actually buying “quality” boots. A quality pair of work boots (or other boots really) being used for welding, general construction or whatever should last several years at minimum, not months. And really good ones just get re-soled/rebuilt, not replaced.

          Same thing with hiking boots. Killing a pair in a year requires an actual dedicated attempt at it if you bought good boots.

          And you should buy good boots. Cheapos will cost you more in the long run not just in replacement fees but in knee, hip and back surgery.

        • strych9,

          Oh man yes, +1.

          Well made, properly fitting leather work or hunting boots are worth far more than their price at the store. I had a pair of good Rocky hunting boots that lasted through 20 years and a few hundred miles of grouse and deer hunting, until they finally just fell apart. When I learned that model had been discontinued years prior, I nearly sat down and cried. I finally found a replacement, and given my slower pace these days, they will likely go in the coffin with me.

          Good boots (and shoes!) are that important, and for me, that hard to find.

        • Well of course if I bought a $250-$500 pair of White’s boots or some obscenely priced footware, they damn well better be lasting 2-4 years. If I could drop $400 on boots, well, I wouldn’t care how long they last or where they were made because I’m apparently filthy rich and made of money. The only pair that I’ve had last more than two years so far are Danners / rat boots, but those are $350 and the $/time is not there.

          I’m on my feet all day, I destroy footwear, that is life. Maybe when I strike some millions I’ll be able to spend exorbitant amounts of money on work boots, but not until. I use footwear until it literally falls apart around my feet.

          https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/755991595765203027/786745981546659840/045982other.jpg
          Here is what is left of one of my previous pairs of Vibrams before I replaced them.

          • @Arc-TAO

            When I moved to Montana, my Chief mentioned that we received a small price break on purchasing White’s Boots (Spokane, WA)…I have never been sorry for the $$ invested in my feet. I have a 20+ year old pair of White’s Smokejumper boots (never been a Smokejumper, however, this model is perfect for busting along on overgrown mountain trails and rocky, broken ground). Resoled a couple of times and I will probably have them completely re-built someday…they will outlast me.

            Rocky’s and Danner’s are not in the same league.

            BTW…100% Made in the USA by old-time craftsmen.

        • You can’t afford boots that would literally last you a decade or more before being rebuilt but you can afford guns and ammo?

          Just wait until you get some medical bills later on. You’ll wish you took a payday loan at 27 million percent interest for the boots by the time the bills for that are all tallied up.

          • @Strych9

            Amen!

            Feet are like teeth…if one hurts then your whole body hurtz and feelz bad. When I signed up, my Dad (WWII veteran) told me to always take care of my feet…he KNEW what he was talking about!

        • @Old Guy in Montana

          I’ll consider it when I start pulling in better money as my small business expands. Maybe by the end of this next year or the next spring. I’m aware everyone seems to swear by them, be it they actually work as claimed, or people trying to justify spending that much on boots that aren’t made from pure gold.

        • @strych9

          No, I can’t afford guns and ammo, that’s why my 80% .300BLK is still an 80% after the few years I’ve had it. Can’t afford the upper, tools, etc, much less the ammo to feed it. I actually just sold my most expensive rifle so I can make ends meet and am trying to offload the optic for it too. But hey, you seem to know everything about everyone.

          I’ve been fortunate enough to dodge the hospitals and big pharma’s scams. I exercise an abundance of caution since I don’t have insurance anymore. Thanks Obama. I pay out of pocket for dental cleanings and it’s actually cheaper than the insurance.

          • @Arc-tao

            Good luck with your small business. It’s a tough time to be a new business owner.

            As far as my White’s boots…never any buyer’s remorse. After they were properly broken in…they were and continue to be the best support and protection for my feet in rough conditions that I’ve ever experienced…period!

            Only one minor downside: they are a bit heavier than a foamed sole, glued upper, Cordura-topped, 8″ pleather boot.

        • If you’re happy sending your money to support a communist slave state…..go for it.

          Don’t expect any respect from American patriots though.

        • Sorry, man, but you lost me completely on cheap boots. As a young adult, I bought a cheap pair of boots. My feet began bothering me, pretty severely, soon after. It took me awhile to put two and two together, but when I did, I switched to a pair of hand-me-down Redwings. Problems disappeared within a few days. Saved my money up, and bought another pair of Redwings that fit properly within a couple weeks. Later, I switched to Wolverines because they are lighter, and more comfortable.

          Never buy cheap shoes or boots, man. I wouldn’t do that to someone I hated. $100 to $150 will still get you a pretty nice pair of boots that will last a year or more, no matter how badly you abuse them. Any time I meet someone with foot problems, I advise them to get good quality name-brand boots or shoes, and quite often their foot pain goes away.

        • I’m not in any way suggesting that I know fuck all about you.

          What I do know, from personal experience, is that shitty footwear will cost you more than you can imagine. Even if you avoid surgery the rehab costs will eat you alive.

          Or you won’t do the things you need to at that point because a single visit costs more than those decent boots and you’ll simply end up disabled at an early age and then you’re really screwed and at that point it’s for life because now you can’t work to make the money you need to get fixed up and all that remains is bankruptcy and government assistance. I’ve seen people do this to themselves in the traded by cheaping out and hurting themselves.

          If it’s truly an issue where you can’t afford it, which it sounds like it is, reply to this and let me know. I’ll give you my email and you can shoot me an address. Go try on some Redwings or get a sizing done for another decent brand, I can give you a list if necessary, and I’ll send you a pair. It’s not a salesmanship or oneupsmanship thing. This will literally fuck your entire body up over time and if you push far enough for long enough you won’t recover from it.

      • Yes, when you purchase products made with slave labor, you get a much better price!

        And the money is really what it’s all about for you ‘conservatives’, right?

        I mean, screw the American craftsman making good products that actually work, when I can save a few bucks I don’t really care about my neighbors welfare.

        Again, you people are pathetic, with no sense of patriotism or American unity, just self interest.

        That explains the presidency of Donald Trump.

        • This rant makes it seem like you believe conservatives and Trump supporters support Chinese slave labor, despite much evidence to the contrary, including specific trade and human-rights policies enacted by the Trump administration. You should read over what you wrote: it says a great deal more about you than it does about any conservative…

        • Miner, you cant be this ill informed. Troll? Trump is American first. Biden was caught accepting $400mil bribe from China through is son.

        • “Biden was caught accepting $400mil bribe from China through is son.”

          Would you by chance happen to have a citation or source for your assertion?

        • Non sequitur?

          Well, perhaps a more clear restatement from another poster will help you understand the issues at hand.

          “You get what you pay for and the American job that evaporates because of it could be yours.“

        • Yeah, right. Walk into WalMart, take a survey, and find out how many shoppers are Ds and Rs. Then take a look at where all of WalMart’s crap is made – mostly in China. WalMart has got rid of most name brand goods, especially in hardware. Today they sell their own company owned brands, made in China, with or without slave labor. It wouldn’t surprise me to find a WalMart subsidiary importing Chinese manufactured guns, and selling them for ultracheap prices. The Uighurs will thank you for employing them.

        • Ya, like the unity of hillary calling half the country a basket of deplorables. Or bejing joe challanging people who disagree with him to fist fight. Btw yes money is important to conservatives because its a means of freedom, even leftist fools like you understand that. Its why your always trying to take it from people who earned it.

    • strych9 I have never had a pair of work boots no matter how much I spent last “Years”
      , I work as a handyman I generally keep the oldest pair of boots for dirty jobs days and newer boots for regular days

      • Then you should invest in better boots.

        My old work boots are still going strong after years and years. Rebuilt once.

      • I buy $150-200 work boots about every two years. I don’t even wear them everyday. The old boots are relegated to around the house yard work until the next two or so years when they finally go into the trash. I hate the way shoe companies constantly change their lineup. You find something that works, and they discontinue it.

        • Try an old-line company and you’ll get far, far better results.

          But be aware, this is like certain other things; buy once cry once. And cry you will. Really decent quality boots have a floor price in the $250/pair range but can go as high as $600+ in many cases. Really good ones will be hand-made to order like Nick’s and will have a floor price around $450.

          However, these companies will off you the ability to resole and rebuild the boot when it’s “worn out” and will do so for far, far less than the original purchase price. Which is how you end up buying a pair for whatever price you paid and keeping them for most, if not all, of your life.

          In this regard it’s similar to how clothes used to be sold. Today that kind of quality costs a lot on paper, but that’s mostly inflation. With, say suits, you’ll always do better spending more than off-the-rack costs because off-the-rack is crap.

        • “Fancy livin.”

          Not to go off on a tangent here [but I’m going to].

          This is not “fancy livin” unless you’ve been paying zero attention to economics for the last 40 years (or historical economics if, like me, you’re not even 40 years old).

          Those boots, adjusted back to 1980’s dollars would be $79.16-$189.99. And you’d very likely still have them today. That’s an entire working life for less than $200 in 1980. That’s quality manufacture right there and, if you make your living on your feet, a damned good investment.

          Now, consider the current price, realize that this kind of insane monetary policy has caused such inflation essentially across the board and then start asking yourself a few questions about why young people today are so screwed up. Why many of them prefer socialism and hate Boomers for instance.

          And now ask yourself how that relates to the 2A.

          One thing Andrew Breitbart was 100% correct about is that politics is downstream from culture. Well, in a lot of ways culture is downstream from basic economics. We’d do well to ponder that. We’d do better if people had done so back in the 1990’s but at this point we’d need a time machine for that so we’ll have to work with what we have.

      • My recommendations are Redwing and Wolverine, with the stronger recommendation being Wolverine.

        I worked concrete for years. I typically got 16 months out of a pair of work boots. One exception – I bought a brand new pair of steel toe Wolverines, and the first week, came into work. A sheet of steel had to be moved, and we couldn’t get any fork lift or crane in where it was needed. About a dozen of us picked it up and moved it, someone lost his grip, and the sheet was dropped onto my new steel toe. I still wore those boots for almost a year, before the cut opened far enough for the steel toe to fall out.

        Good boots pay for themselves.

        • i favor the ‘wings still made in land o lakes; there still are a few models.
          schnees boots are well lasted, read about lasting methods.
          and for total comf heaven, arrow moccasins, double leather sole.

    • To all the replies, as far as boots go, strych9 hit the nail on the head. You’re not buying quality boots if you are going through them that fast. I was in the infantry and wasn’t going through boots that fast.

      As far as tools go, same thing. If you’re trying to justify buying insanely cheap Chinese tools because you go through tools that fast, then either you’re insane or need to learn the same lesson I did.

      I did the same thing when I was younger until I got tired of my stuff breaking or getting injured from shoddy Chinese materials. Go out and get some actual quality tools and you will notice a huge difference. Buy once cry once.

      I get you may not have an option anymore in some areas, to not buy Chinese crap. But when you do have the ability, get the better quality gear and save yourself the headache. I’m saying this from experience.

      • I finally bit the bullet and bought some Jadghund boots for general outdoors activities this year. I’ve been wearing Merrill Moabs for 10-12 years and there’s just no comparison between the two. Jadghunds are on sale now, nearly 60% off, on the Steyr website.

      • My boots did last longer in the 03s as well, but that is likely due to them rarely going through a punishing environment. Walking all over base and maybe training a few months out of the year, sure, they will last a year or more; even longer if you keep them brushed and oiled. Keeping garrison boots separated from field boots may buy you some extra time on them as well. I had plenty of extra pairs back then due to how light the duty load was on them; boots also lasted plenty long walking around Afghanistan. Most of the time, my boots were parked by my bed *cough* rack, while I spent much of the day watching anime.

        Same boots I wore then don’t last a year on the farm. Brush clearing, cutting trees, dragging it all around, hiking around the perimeter to make sure everything is on the up and up, still putting fences in, carrying the posts around, general gardening, working in my greenhouse(s), carrying gravel from a nearby creek for soil mixing, etc. My dog alone puts a minimum of 1.5 miles daily on my boots just walking him to his favorite toilet, often more since its a half mile round trip every time. The two lifestyles aren’t even close.

        This year, I busted out my last brand new pair I had kept and even after babying them with Otterwax (suede boot oil), the leather is already wearing through in the usual places. Put them on in the beginning of March. I need to check Ebay for left boot only / right boot only listings to see if I can get a new pair on the cheap, otherwise it’s back to China. Fortunately it’s going to be another mild winter in the south and dry, so I don’t have to deal with cold water leaking in.

        • I was probably in a different era then, I suppose. We were constantly in the field and ruck marching. We didn’t ever do drill and ceremony, or parade. We were training for combat every single day. But this was 15 years ago. That was a different time. I get what you’re saying because I’ve talked to young men who either recently got out or have gone in, and they tell me the same thing, they spent most their time in classrooms. Anyway, my boots would last roughly a year and a half. Wether issue boots or bought.

    • Boots: After burning through 3 pair of Chinese boots in 6 months (because Walmart was the only place open) I bought a pair of made in the USA Red Wings. The last pair I had lasted 10 years; I expect these will as well, and at $269.00, only cost as much as 6 pair of CCPs.

      Chinese quality control: I used to carry 2 identical lines of product, and by identical I mean produced on the same Chinese production line. The top grade had British quality control; the second grade was produced under Chinese control on the second shift. Yes, an uneducated eye could tell the difference.

        • Pretty much. I used to work with China when I was with the Equivalence Branch of USDA. They said they could meet any quality standard required by a customer, you just had to decide what you wanted. Dishonest people, besides me, thank God, approved China to process chicken for sale in the USA, probably a BIG mistake because they fast tracked it through the Obama/Biden administration. Obviously, the dicks that sold me those AR 15 knock off sights set the standards low and then sold them on the mass market through Wish at a price double or more what they were really worth. I would send them back but the postage to some remote place in bumfuck China is not worth it!

        • Oh no, that Barack Obama opened up America to Chinese chicken?

          Yeah, more conservative bullshit, only if Obama was still president in 2019 would your statement be true.

          In fact it is trumps administration approving Chinese chicken for American boys and girls, just as COVID-19 was just getting started:

          USDA confirms approval of Chinese chicken
          11/07/19 4:26 PM By Bill Tomson
          KEYWORDS APHIS CHICKEN CHINA CHINESE COVID-19 FSIS JIM SUMNER TARIFFS USAPEEC USDA
          Poultry processing
          The USDA is moving to open the U.S. border to Chinese chicken amid final talks between the two countries to wrap up a partial trade pact that is promised to result in China increasing its imports of U.S. ag commodities.

          USDA will publish a final rule Friday that allows China to certify slaughter and processing facilities there to export chicken to the U.S.

          Bloomberg is reporting that China is preparing to lift its four-year ban on U.S. chicken.”

          And the conservative disinformation campaign roll on, ignoring the truth and spreading more lies.

      • Isn’t a “garbage trigger” the factory standard on Glocks and every other striker fired centerfire handgun?

  3. I’m still looking for a ceramic Glock…

    But, seriously, you do business with the CCP ur gonna get burned (excepting, of course, the Biden Family of pedophiles, dopers and domestic abusers).

  4. In the convergence between unconstitutional laws and unscrupulous people trying to make a buck, it’s hard for me to have sympathy for either side.

    The article headline is: ” Feds: 2 men sold machinegun converter kits ‘for people who want to shoot some people’”

    Well, in England they’re down to “2 men sold knives ‘for people who want to stab some people’”

    Bad intentions by a few aren’t a reason to strip rights from everyone.

    • To be honest, you can buy full auto firearms all day long if you can afford the price and can pay the $200 tax stamp per item and pass a long federal background check. Same with silencers. I have 4 silencers that cover all the calibers I will ever need. I hated paying $800.00 extra in tax stamps but I sucked it up and paid it. I want to teach my younger son how to shoot without losing the last of my hearing so it is worth it.

      The price of the $200 tax stamp for class 3 weapons has remained the same since the ’30s or ’40s when it was started to control gangs with machine guns. That would be at least $5000.00 in our current, very devalued money. At $5000 dollars per gun, only guys with extra cash and a high degree of interest in owning one would ever try. This class 3 stuff has been controlled for a while, don’t get too excited.

      • And that is where ATF and government have shot themselves in the ass, metaphorically. In 1934 the tax was set at $200 because almost no one could afford it. It was designed to restrict NFA ownership to rich people and government goons. But since they have also been inflating the currency all this time it eventually got to the point where $200 was doable for many people.

        In the 80’s converting your semi auto rifle for $200 was becoming quite a popular thing. Government tried to derail that with the Hughes amendment ending the addition of new full autos to the NFA registry, which drove the price of the guns themselves up beyond most peoples means.

        But again, the currency continues to inflate/de value. So today a <$10,000 MAC or Uzi is within a lot more people's reach. Tons of people have also been paying the $200 for suppressors and SBRs and SBSs. Then binary triggers came along, and bump stocks. Then someone figured out pistol braces, and non shotgun/non rifle firearms to slip through the cracks in the regulations. So those who could afford a <$10,000 MAC or Uzi or a $200 + the fee for a gunsmith to chop it SBR/SBS could still have some fun-ish toys.

        Now the lumpen proletariat, the poors, the deplorables have discovered the fun and utility of NFA-ish items. They have tasted it and they want more.

        Add to that Uncle Sham insisting on molesting the middle east for oil and rare minerals driving the training thousands of US citizens in the use of select fire weapons, short barreled weapons, and suppressors which are now common among regular infantry. Thousands of young men and women came back from the sand box over the last 30 years with experience with such forbidden fruit.

        They, and we non military non criminals, are now asking the obvious question; Why shouldn't we have access to these things? Criminals don't obey the laws and government goons are always exempted from them. That leaves us regular people stuck in the middle with only our rights being abridged while both sets of the wolves who prey on us have free reign.

      • The tax stamp isn’t the issue. The issue is that the supply of legal full auto weapons is absolutely fixed, so a battered rattletrap POS machine pistol will cost you upwards of $7k and most rifles are $15k or much higher.

        • Not to mention the 9-12 month or more wait…EVERY time you buy one…ridiculous…
          And they are over-the-counter in many other advanced nations…

      • As I have said before. The rich, criminal or law abiding, will always have machine guns. The government can’t ever make them to expensive for them to buy.
        And the “gun community” will not support “Machine gun ownership for poor people”. Which is what the bumpstock really is. The Sten Gun was also a cheap machine gun. It got people killed it was so bad. But at $10 a copy it’s what the UK could afford in WW2. And over 2 million were made. As always you train with what you have. And make it work. Until you can afford something better.

        The “bullet button” in California was also a way for regular people, to have a gun with similar features, compared to guns outside of California law. It also made guns more expensive in that state. So you train with what you have.

        It has never been about the gun being full auto. Its always been about preventing the regular person from having one. And regulating guns so they are more expensive to buy. Under Obama thousands of free full auto long guns were sent to civilian police departments everywhere. Those departments didn’t have to spend their limited budgets on expensive select fire weapons.

        Even the communist colleges and universities that want you to not have one, have made sure their school police have full auto weapons.

        ‘A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.’

        The best way to keep your state free is to make sure the people have better weapons than the government does. But Obama made sure the police who couldn’t afford them, got them. For free.

        You on the other hand get to pay the $200 tax stamp.

  5. Offer a ‘too good to turn down’ price, and make him a seller.
    Go back again and again, and buy more, more, more, now he’s a high volume distributor.

    But, if left alone, would he have ever sold a single one, or were these crimes totally manufactured by the government’s agents?

    • If $500 is your “too good to turn down” price for something that can land you in federal prison for years, I think the problem is your decision making.

  6. How many people have been shot with full-auto Glocks in the US in the past decade?

    More full-auto Glocks would probably save lives: when the gangbanger is driving by shooting one-handed out the window, the first round will go vaguely in the direction of the target, then muzzle rise will empty the remaining 16-17 rounds far over the heads of nearby bystanders.

    • That is a pretty cynical view. Most likely, innocent bystanders on the 3rd and 4th floor of the apartment building would be shot through their windows (you can just imagine, right?) so I still agree with the ATF on this one.

      • WTF “agree with the ATF”? You are apparently agreeing with the unconstitutional actions of the US government in 1934, all of whom are dead now. They knew it was unconstitutional, hoped to get away with it since “it was only a tax”. It is easy to see, today, that it was NEVER only a tax, it was trying to sneak an unconstitutional law past the people, so as to increase government control over all of our lives.

    • muzzle creep will send them left or right of the intended depending on whether the perp is right or wronghanded.

      • I fired a full auto earlier this year. Didn’t like it. Too much muzzle creep/climb and wasted ammo.

        • Yep. Full-auto weapons, at least without bipods, tripods or other stable mounts, are for suppressive fire, not more efficient killing.

          Your typical thug isn’t likely to carry around a big bagful of magazines, so he’s probably less dangerous with a full auto machine pistol than with a semi-auto.

        • Heavy belt fed bipod with proper position it can be remarkably accurate especially in solid ten shot bursts in minute of bad guy(s). For other options it has uses just not always as practical/efficient. With that said I am pretty sure you are way closer to the kinds of ranges where you can have fun with the above rentals than I am short of reenlisting.

    • And safely into the potentially occupied buildings behind them…………. brick can help but windows and more modern construction may be an issue with sufficient volume of fire/people present at wrong time/place.

      • That’s pretty much the same danger with full auto or semi-auto. You can mag dump a Glock with a 17- or 31-round mag in a few seconds shooting semi-auto.

        Even if you keep it to controlled bursts, that’s not really a lot different than emptying a semi-auto shotgun loaded with 000-buckshot, except the shotgun will pattern better.

        There’s no safe way to conduct a drive-by shooting. And I note that drive-by shootings are already illegal. Why do we need to criminalize specific tools? Maybe you’d rather they showed up at night with baseball bats, machetes and chains and just beat some people to death. Seems to work pretty well in South Africa and Zimbabwe. With the victims disarmed, the strongest and the most ruthless rule.

        “God created men, Col. Colt made them equal.”

        • Reasonably sure the full auto options are likely to have a more elevated angle of unintended impacts but yes firing into a crowd for one intended target that may or may not have been sufficiently identified is a problem in general regardless of weapon used.

    • Not if they turn the gun sideways like most gangstas do. The Chinese warlords figured that one out with their C96 Schnelfeurs.

    • Given how many bystanders get shot during drivebys I think a more cynical idea would be to give gangbangers more training so they can actually hit the people they’re aiming at. Less kids shot, less (rival) gangbangers survive.

  7. You can bitch all you want about the ATF, but they deserve a big pat on the back for finding this bullshit and getting it off of the streets. The biggest problem was that he intended to sell to people that would do great harm to other people, with innocent people getting mowed down in the cross fire. Please try to give credit where credit is due. The politicians are the ones that cause the problems, generally NOT the ATF and FBI agents just trying to do their jobs.

    • “The biggest problem was that he intended to sell to people that would do great harm to other people”

      BS. He would have sold them to anyone willing to pay for it. You don’t need a full auto pistol to harm people. The ATF and FBI have become a joke.

    • Was it the ATF who did the real leg work, or did they just piggy back on the the local police, who had already been investigating them for a year?

      • I’m assuming here, but:

        Customs and ATF tracked the contraband from the country the Bidens work for.

        Local LE verified that yep, John Doe at the address Customs gave them was the recipient of the contraband.

        ATF sent a Confidential InstigatInformant to entice him to sell them and ramp up the severity of the charges, you could say piggybacking on local LE’s legwork.

        Local LE piggybacked on the ATF manufactured selling action with a few buys of their own.

        Meanwhile, all Customs/ATF had to do was get a search warrant for the giggle switches, seize them, and refer him to the US Attorney’s office, a year ago without wasting time and money on all the other bullshit.

      • ATF was certainly heavily involved given in the international connections. Chicago PD kinda has their hands full right now, anyway.

      • But the law does. Until there’s a case that properly applies Miller to mean civilians can own the same arms as the military, the current laws stand.

        • Actually, I believe the Court stated exactly that as part of the Miller decision – that arms of specific use to the military are protected by the 2A.

          Miller had an “unregistered” SBS. The court claimed that short-barreled shotguns were not in use by the military (notwithstanding they were used during trench warfare in The Great War), and thus, they were ok to be burdened by a $200 stamp.

        • More accurately, the prosecution claimed that, with the defense not even putting in an appearance.

          The court said, effectively: In the absence of any evidence that a SBS has military purpose, we find the 2A doesn’t protect it.

    • Wrong. The ATF is an unconstitutional agency filled with people who hate gun rights, gun supporters, and the American Constitution. The FBI is filled with political cronies who are beholden to the demands of the globalist deep state – they’ve been corrupted since the days of Whitey Bulger and have only gotten worse with time. Anyone dumb enough to join these agencies of foul corruption will be pigeonholed and ignored or corrupted themselves.

      The mask slipped under the Clinton Administration with Janet Reno, Ruby Ridge and Waco. Nothing has changed since then, because the institutions were never gutted of the traitors within. There was no job done here that the Chicago PD could not have done themselves – if they weren’t all in bed with the gangbangers and the corruption that is Chicago. I’m sure that the upstanding future astronaut the ATF arrested could have been arrested on charges for something legitimate, and not related to an unconstitional law that infringes in the rights of all citizens.

      // Stolen Authority is not Legitimate // Do Not Comply \\ Following orders is never an excuse \\

      • “The mask slipped under the Clinton Administration with Janet Reno, Ruby Ridge and Waco.“

        I can’t believe you people, attempting to revise history to serve your delusional narrative.

        Historical facts are historical facts, and there are multiple records proving what actually occurred regardless of whatever right wing conspiracy theory you attempt to propagate.

        Ruby Ridge was not a tragedy perpetrated by the Clintons, they weren’t in the White House then, did you sleep through American history class?

        Ruby ridge occurred on George I’d watch, it was the culmination of 12 years of Republican control of the ATF under Reagan and Bush.
        And Waco was just a continuation of the same jackbooted thug ATF policies that Reagan and Bush instituted.

        • Ruby Ridge was a coverup by the Clinton administration. And the Waco attack ordered by Clinton and coverup was ordered by the Clinton administration. Get your facts straight.

        • “Ruby Ridge was a coverup by the Clinton administration. And the Waco attack ordered by Clinton”

          Are you serious, would you try to convince us that Democrat Bill Clinton worked hard to cover up the Republican George Bush’s administration’s murder of American citizens?

          Your grasp of American history seems somewhat flawed, let me provide you a timeline that may help you understand the situation.

          November 3, 1980 Republican Reagan elected president

          November 3, 1988 Republican Bush elected president

          August 21–31, 1992 Federal marshals and FBI action at ruby ridge

          Ruby ridge occurred after the Republicans under Reagan and Bush had controlled the administration for 12 years.

          February 28, 1993 – April 19, 1993 ATF, federal marshals, FBI, Texas Rangers attack Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas

          If you are math challenged, let me help. The Branch Davidians were attacked one month after Bill Clinton took office.

          Do you really believe that Bill Clinton was responsible for Ruby Ridge and Waco?
          Do you really believe that the Texas Rangers, on orders of Bill Clinton, attacked the Branch Davidian compound?

          The federal agents that attacked both Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian compound were the culmination of 12 years of republican domination of the federal law enforcement apparatus, carrying out the jackbooted thug policies of Reagan and Bush.

          “It was noted that the Ruby Ridge incident and the 1993 Waco siege involved many of the same agencies (the FBI HRT and the ATF) and some of the same personnel (the FBI HRT commander).”

          It is both sad and hilarious there’s so many conservatives who want to rewrite history in order to somehow elevate Reagan and Bush to sainthood.

    • Got this off the streets? Pat the ATF and FBI on the back? Keep in mind the higher-ups at the ATF think the exact same thing about all guns in the hands of the citizenry in the United States. They are the enemy, and so are you because of your attitude.

      • Ruby Ridge started out as an ATF entrapment scheme…the kind of stuff they still do today…Waco was more of a publicity stunt to gain funding and justify their existence…the FBI/HRT was sent in to clear up the mess they had created in both cases…but still managed to screw things up royally….

    • Geez a new troll(or an old one with a different moniker)…and this whole bs affair took place in the southern suburbs. I feel soooo safe now. Where the f##k were you fed a-hole’s during BlackLootersMurder week??? Didja see the dude on the EL with a takedown rifle shooting a wall? Apparently for chits & giggles…

    • All of these responses to my previous email are pretty angry and irrational. Try to keep those opinions to yourselves because we already had full auto weapons available 80 or 90 years ago and had good reasons to limit them. Semiauto is what is useable for hunting and shooting sports and that is what we should try to keep without more restrictions. Including full auto into the argument is irrational suicide.

      • Try to keep those opinions to yourselves

        Shut up and don’t disagree with me, he explained.

        We did not have “good reasons” to limit them. It was an unconstitutional power grab back then and it remains so. The number of civilians killed with machine guns was tiny. They used a couple high-profile incidents to generate emotion and provide cover for their civilian disarmament efforts, just like they do now.

        As if it hasn’t been said enough, the second amendment is not about hunting and shooting sports.

        • The NFA was also premised on Prohibition violence, which by definition was over because Prohibition ended in December 1933 and the NFA came into being in July 1934.

          Realistically, it was actually passed because of the assassination attempt on FDR by Giuseppe Zangara but that’s another story.

        • sometimes those “civilians” were just workers pushing hard for a union…it wasn’t just the gangsters who bought up these things…after the union contracts took hold many a Thompson found its way into the lockers of local pd’s…some are still there today….

      • Good reasons to limit them?

        The GCA was a handgun ban.
        The stuff we now think of NFA items was either an afterthought (full autos/silencers) or loophole closing on the handgun ban (sawed off shotguns/short barreled rifles).

        When the handgun ban was removed from the handgun ban bill, we were left with the ‘hey why not ban it’ regulations on full auto and silencers, and the totally stupid bans on short barreled guns which left the factory as long guns. Due to the inherent stupidity of the law which you illogically insist on praising, it was rarely enforced before 1968.

        • some truth there…the only reason I bought my first house around that time was because the guy agreed to leave the MP40 he had hanging on the wall as a war trophy….

      • “All of these responses to my previous email are pretty angry and irrational.”

        Not to mention, most of them are total BS from armchair commandos who’ve never cooked a cuppa coffee in a canteen cup with a ball of C4 but they sure are deadly operators if you ask them.

        Welcome to TTAG, where rumor, conspiracy theories and religious delusions hold sway over truth and reason.

      • Please name one law that has kept criminals from obtaining what they want, including full auto guns. None absolutely none my right will be limited because others misuse things. Your entire arguement is invalidated when applied to anything else like drinking, gambling and so on but guns so that makes it right. It doesn’t work that way, never has and never will. The problem is you are too dumb to listen another Minor69er er… Miner49er.

      • There is no good reason to keep select fire weapons from general use. The Act was stupid, solved nothing and made it prohibitive for regular people to afford.

        Just because a few people used them for immoral purposes does not overrule the majority who did not. That type of argument you are using would say that no one could have any item because a few used it in a immoral way.

        • the prime thrust for NFA was that most police departments were outgunned by the bad guys…but they revealed their true intentions by trying to add handguns to the mix….

      • Gerald! Are you taking stupid lessons? Nobody is naturally that stupid, you have to be really trying. Exactly *what* “good reasons” did we have 90 years ago to infringe upon the people’s right to keep and bear full-auto arms or barrels shorter than an arbitrary length? Just identify one or two which couldn’t be resolved by putting 200-300 criminals in prison forever, and leaving the law abiding still in possession of their Constitutional rights? Out of 300 MILLION!!!

    • “The politicians are the ones that cause the problems…”

      And how do they do it? By creating an unending stream of laws for the alphabet agencies to enforce. And by creating that abusive bureaucracy in the first place. This whole country has Stockholm Syndrome.

    • This is not the first time the communist Chinese government, using a “civilian” front company, has tried to supply full auto weapons to criminals.
      President Trump is correct. China is our problem.

      from 1996
      “In releasing the first details of a sting operation that led to the arrests of seven suspects Wednesday in the San Francisco Bay Area, federal officials told a spy-thriller tale of arms-import deals gone wrong, money buried under a potted tree and the payment of hundreds of thousands of dollars to illegally import 2,000 AK-47 rifles with a street value estimated at $4 million.”

      The guns were already in the country. Ready for distribution.

      “The sting began in December 1994 after a Customs informant tipped the agency that Hammond Ku, a Taiwanese resident alien living in Soquel, Calif., had several thousand Chinese-manufactured weapons in crates labeled from Polytech and Norinco stored in his warehouse.”

      https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-05-24-9605240246-story.html

      The Clinton’s and the Biden’s have always been very friendly with the communist Chinese.

      • “from 1996“. “federal officials”

        You do realize, that was the very Clinton administration that cracked down on the illegal arms coming into America from China.

        That was Clintons FBI and ATF at work, preventing the Chinese communist from infiltrating 2000 AK-47s into the United States.

        All that, and getting a BJ from Monica in the Oval, Clinton is the Man!

    • Gerald! Dude! That is a HELL of a trick, reading the minds of people whose NAMES you don’t even know! If I were less trusting, I might think you were full of shit, just making stuff up based on your idiotic liberal upbringing, without giving a moment’s attention to the lives and accomplishments of the millions of people you are insulting.

  8. Would probably save lives in the Windy City. A 2 second mag dump with a hand gun (held at the requisite 90 degree angle) pretty well insures you won’t hit whatever you were aiming at.

    • Most of the time, I don’t care if they hit what they’re aiming at.

      I don’t want them to hit people they’re NOT aiming at.

  9. The Chinese are biding their time, collecting our pennies, building armament-bristling artificial islands, ships, subs, and missiles, and waiting for the time to strike us militarily. They’ve said so themselves.
    Mao once said:

    “China can absorb 300 million casualties in a war with the US.”

    • Back in the mid 70’s in a class on Communism. We did a calculation about the population of China and it’s ability to make war. If you lined up the Chinese population 4 abreast and marched them into the ocean at military cadence. You would never run out of people.

    • They can’t defend those artificial islands.

      They are only a few meters above sea level. They can’t dig deep to protect command posts. They won’t survive one stealth concentrated attack.

      The first wave destroys the targeting radars. The clean-up waves pound it into more sand…

      • Pretty much correct, send over some fast movers to get them to light up their shit and then a couple flocks of ARM and they’re blind.

      • Yeah and the US couldn’t defend West Berlin from an armor attack, either. It didn’t matter because such an attack would be the start of a wider war. A war that neither side would get to limit.

    • “China can absorb 300 million casualties in a war with the US.”

      Unfortunately for China we can inflict that on them with a quickness.

      Unfortunately for us the Chinese can inflict casualties we can’t sustain but require a slightly longer timeline to do so.

      Their tech is crap but they do have a lot of ready-made corpses. Our tech is far, far better but we don’t have the meat-bags to match them.

      A slug-fest between us gets interesting pretty quick and I don’t think either side actually wants that. We sure as shit don’t.

    • Mao may have made a comment like that once. He would not today, considering the loss of 300 million would occur on the same single 24 hour day when every industry in the country was wiped off the face of the earth. “Survive”, maybe, if you consider starving to death in the stone age to be surviving.

    • Yup. Really difficult to control. Got to shoot one down in Las Vegas at that machine gun rental place after a 3-gun match. Set it down after one mag. Laughed and thought, these things are only good for a rental place. Out in the desert.

      • I have an 18C. The first time you shoot it, the very high cyclic rate surprises you. After a couple of magazines, keeping every round in a silhouette at 15 yards on full auto is no challenge at all. At 25 yards, you need to pay attention, but it’s very doable.

        • “I have an 18C.”

          An actual 18C, or one of those rear slide plate conversions?

          And if so, how did you get around the government-only use limitation?

        • Thanks for that info. It certainly seems reasonable that accuracy would be terrible for the first few magazines fired. But like with most things, practice is key. Your stated accuracy is impressive, all things considered.

          I’ll bet most folks here have not seen this video clip from Twin Peaks – The Return.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYsSQw_EwBo

          The couple inside the van are a contract killer team who mess with the wrong guy. Black humor to be sure. But I’ve wondered about that scene; pure Hollywood or is it relatively realistic?? My first thought was that they probably used blanks in the auto pistol, but watching a few times it looks like the muzzle is flipping a great deal.

        • Actual 18C. I have all the licenses for everything including destructive devices and an FEL. My business is audited annually, or at least I am most years. At this point, I would have to go out of my way to commit a crime purchasing or owning a firearm or explosives.

        • one of my TEC-9’s is full-auto…and it shoots all over the place…can’t hit a damn thing with it… (unless you’re in a hallway!)….does tend to scare the hell out of people, though…even the shooter….

    • You need to 3D print or have Wish make you some of those stocks for these for sure. If you’re going for one NFA violation why not two? I realize the laws around this are crap but man what a silly way to think you’re gonna make a few bucks. You may as well rob banks.

  11. It’s not alright with me when it comes to passing laws that concern inanimate objects based on the premise of what criminals can do with them.
    Firearms are always singled out while other things that criminals misuse get a complete pass.
    If Big Brother did not have the thought of rounding up citizens one day and putting them in cattle cars citizens would have full auto just like Big Brother has. No law abiding American should be in denied the tools needed to defend their freedom should criminals or tyrants happen by.

  12. I just want to say one more thing. Back in the day those full auto Tommy guns were heavy and the fire was controllable. Criminals were mowing down each other, innocent people, cops, and federal agents on a regular basis. I do NOT agree that full auto weapons should be approved for civilian use because we already know that immoral people will use them without licensing and control. Class 3 licenses are readily available at a fair price if you want a full auto and can pass a background check. Pump action and semi-auto should be allowed without restriction.

    • Homicide rates in the US in the 20s and 30s during prohibition were about 8-9 per 100k, about the same as high crime periods from the ’70s through the ’90s. You’ve seen too many gangster movies. The homicide rate has a lot more to do with current events than it does the availability of guns of any kind.

    • The use of machine guns by mobsters is exaggerated, like school shooting are today. The hysteria for “assault weapons” bans actually worked back then and resulted in the NFA. The St Valentine’s Day Massacre was 7 gang members executed by another 4 gang members impersonating cops, and the use of Tommy guns was incidental. Today, that’s a typical weekend BBQ shooting in Chicago, and nobody cares. Criminals continue to use machine guns and other weapons even with bans or prohibitions.

    • “Class 3 licenses are readily available at a fair price if you want a full auto and can pass a background check”

      A “fair price”? No. The phenomenally high price of fully automatic firearms is purely the result of artificial scarcity created by the government.

      The going rate for a transferable full auto Colt AR15 is $20-30K.

      Please educate yourself before you run your mouth further.

      • To be fair, he did state that the “license” was a fair price, which depends on your definition of “fair price” for an SOT.

        So… technically speaking, you’re both correct. The license is cheap compared to the gear it allows you to acquire (outside dealer samples that you don’t actually own).

        Hope you’re recovering well.

    • “Class 3 licenses are readily available at a fair price if you want a full auto and can pass a background check. Pump action and semi-auto should be allowed without restriction…”

      So, open the machinegun registry and let people buy them at market value as long as they can pass a federal background check? I’d be alright with that.

    • You really don’t know how a Class III license works do you? Just having the license does not allow you to buy machine guns. Usually at a minimum you need to have a law enforcement letter stating they want to buy full auto weapons from you and then you can purchase new autos at a cheap price. You can transfer full auto weapons easier but it’s the ones already in circulation you might get a little break with post sample weapons as far as price. Then when you give up your license you also have to give up the guns. Not to mention you have to have a place to conduct business, be willing to have the ATF inspect your facility with short notice and so on.

      • got that right…having a Class three license was a much better deal back in the day than it is now…and it only cost $200 a year….

    • Gerald, I disagree with your analysis. What makes your opinion more valuable than mine? How about we just follow or change the Constitution (pick one), then I do what I want, and you do what you want? It could be, like, you know, FREEDOM???

  13. As a person who has used multiple types of full auto weapons (door gunner in choppers 50 cal & m60’s + B A R’s & assorted grease gun types) I can say with confidence that the majority of the time it’s a wast of ammunition but can be fun. Spray & pray, great for suppression but accuracy kinda go’s away, unless anchored down in some way. Like I said, they can be fun but I couldn’t afford the ammunition,

    • Nordneg, thank you for a response learned by actual use, fifty something years ago I used M16s gen 1&2 and 50 Cal browning machine guns, if you absolutely NEED one then you probably already have one. To me they’re just a waste of ammo that’s in short supply.

      • watched a little gatling chew up a “donated” 400 rds at Knob Creek…took only a few seconds…not very practical for the average guy…..

  14. How can it be that in the peoples republik of chicago, ruled by beetle juice, a citizen (subject) would ever be able to get something this evil! Gasp!

  15. Meh, no fan of the NFA here but this guy was knowingly selling these things to lowlifes to enhance their criminal capabilities.

    A pox on all involved in this particular case.

      • Grabbers say a lot of things.

        That said, I rather doubt that anyone from Bushmaster (or even Anderson) has ever said “It’s gonna go to the people who want to go shoot some people, gangbangers and shit,” in reference to their corporate sales policy.

  16. Ha ha ha ha.
    China can’t sale the U.S. guns
    The U.S. don’t want you to have guns.
    China does.
    What The Fuck.
    Oh Suzy Q

  17. Before 1968 you could get a machine gun delivered to your home mail box. Ammo included. That is how many people got them. And we didn’t have machine gun massacre’s every week. Before 1968, a 16 year old could walk into a gun store and buy his, or her, own long gun. With their saved up baby sitting money. Or their paper boy route pay check. What changed in our society has been the throwing out of old morality standards. And the ended of enforcement of laws that protected the greater society.

    It’s no big deal that criminals have guns. It never was. That’s why they are called criminals. They will use a base ball bat if that’s what happens to be handy.

    The wide spread ownership of full auto guns has never harmed American society. And owning tanks, a howitzer, or a bazooka, has not harmed society either. In fact the civilian police have never had such weapons. And we were a very peaceful country, with thousands of civilians who did in fact legally possess such weaponry.

    These criminals in Chiraq have all committed serious enough crimes that would have had them locked up for many years. But the government has decided to not prosecute them. But if they try to get a full auto weapon, that will get them locked up. But not rape, not murder, or trying to murder someone. Not armed robbery WITH A gun. No or very little of an investigation will be done.

    No machine gun for you. Only for “responsible” rich people. Like the rich white man who shot up Las Vegas. Killing 80 and wounding almost 600 people. Rich people like him can always afford a private machine gun collection.

    • I will say this… I think we would have machinegun massacres now. Particularly school ones. There is a particular sickness that has grown in modern American society on that front. Would it be worse than Virginia Tech, Columbine, etc? Probably. Maybe not by much. But I think we’ve definitely changed since ’68.

      • You are the victim of selective media propagandizing. The homicide rate in the US is a little lower now than it was in the mid-60s, when people were getting mail-order machineguns (and it wasn’t the machineguns making the difference. Like always, most people are murdered with handguns, knives and blunt objects.)

    • Chris, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong, and I’m also pretty sure that if you were correct I would have bought a machine gun in 1968 by mail order instead of the Python I DID buy. I believe you’re thinking of prior to 1934 (NFA as opposed to GCA).

      • still remember all those adds for 20mm anti-tank guns back in the 50’s that were in all the comic books…usually $199 and $2 a rd…although, some times for half that…remember “Thunderbolt and Lightfoot”?…i’m told that was based on a real event…….

    • you could still get them delivered to your front door…[and left there!] …in the 80’s…if you had a license….

    • you’d be surprised how many politicians own at least one mg….they seldom start out rich…but usually wind-up that way…

  19. so…if he is young and black..he will plead out and get probation and community service…watch and see…
    back on the streets until he actually kills somebody…the Chicago way
    because strict enforcement would too harshly affect young brown and black men

  20. More (machine) guns equals less crime. Now if you would just stop emptying the jails and prosecute violent felons, crime would go down even more.

    • btw
      After reading all the comments its interesting to see just how many so called defenders of the 2A, really don’t support private ownership of machine guns. But they do support the government having them.

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