Recently, someone at the NSSF decided to ask the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives about genderqueer firearm purchasing. For example, let’s say an individual walks into a gun store with one of the non-binary drivers’ licenses that are issued in certain jurisdictions.

Legally, on both the driver’s license and birth certificate, that individual’s sex is listed as “X” for non-binary. As the ATF clarified, those driver’s licenses DO count as valid identification documents as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 1028:

…a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government … when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

However, when it comes to the NICS background check, a male or female identification is required on ATF form 4473. There’s no non-binary option “X”, and prospective gun buyers may not leave box 6 blank. That’s because all entries in the NICS database are coded as male or female, and that can’t be changed without a system-wide overhaul. So, FFLs may not transfer firearms to individuals who refuse to identify as male or female.

That said, section 31 of form 4473 permits the licensee to document any additional information they believe is relevant, and that would be the place to note a discrepancy between non-binary sex on the driver’s license and binary identification on the transaction form.

So, now you know.

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200 COMMENTS

    • When it comes to court cases and guns, the courts typically take the default case of “whichever position transfers the fewest guns into private hands” is the correct one.

      The ATF has told me that I, as a FFL, can deny a transfer of a gun to anyone for any reason, and they will back me up. They gave that little pep talk to every FFL I’ve talked to here in Wyoming. Don’t like the looks of the guy because of tats, or the color of his socks? OK, just document why and refuse the transfer.

      That’s the official position of the ATF, and they told me that they would back that up in court. Their meta-position is “if there is ever any doubt about a transfer, the only way you, the FFL, can get into trouble, is to let the transfer go through. Refusing a transfer? You will never get in trouble from the ATF for refusing a transfer.”

      So someone can (and probably will) try to sue over this. I suspect that the new-age SJW agenda will hit a wall here, and hit it hard.

      • “I suspect that the new-age SJW agenda will hit a wall here, and hit it hard.”

        Honestly, I wouldn’t bet on that.

        • Imagine a 4473 with the alphabet soup on it to satisfy the SJW’s.

          It would be completely unworkable. Someone could give you one answer today, and another tomorrow. The fields on the 4473 are there for identification purposes. Giving room to SJW’s to spout their perversions isn’t a purpose of that form, or of the legislation that enabled that form.

          The easiest way to deal with the SJW’s is to say “No.” Most people don’t seem to realize it.

          Kevin Hart realized it – perhaps a week late, but he’s copped the clue.

        • good call. the more americans we can deny gun ownership to with no crime committed the better. A slippery slope is of no use unless one begins the slide down.

          Nice to see the ttag literati take the liberal side and oppose gun ownership to those with whom they have issue.

          hypocrites!

        • “It would be completely unworkable…”

          So what? Microstamping is unworkable but is still the law of the land in Cali. Upheld by the courts and everything.

          Just because it’s batshit crazy doesn’t mean it won’t come to pass. All they need is someone who likes to dress up as a sexually confused squirrel and shit a diaper to go judge-shopping. Just like that, trisexual, trans species furbaby gun rights are a thing and the judge is ordering the ATF to change the forms.

        • “Nice to see the ttag literati take the liberal side and oppose gun ownership to those with whom they have issue.”

          Yes, I have issue allowing mentally unstable people guns. If you can’t figure out what sex you are, I don’t see allowing you (and that’s what we’re really talking about here, we’re talking about the government allowing) to have a gun.

          Every. Fncking. Day. I get to work with Liberals, Socialists and Statists who look at me every single fncking time any dip$hit leaves their gun in a car and a kid shoots themselves with it. Every single fncking time ANYONE does something stupid with a gun. I’ve gotten pretty good at ignoring them or saying “yeah, Liberty is a messy thing when stupid people have it isn’t it?”. Having said that, you think I want “that look” when some LGBTQWTF can’t figure out what their sex is deranged j@ck@$$ does something stupid with their gun?

          Kiss my hairy ass.

        • @CJP

          You are a moron. First of all you say liberal, socialist, and statists but you have your definitions wrong.

          You are a liberal. Liberals are right wing. You have a problem with the left, not liberals. Liberals were our founding fathers, leftist are the demons we have today.

          And I’m not even going to start on the idiocy you spouted after that… The later comments covered it already to a reasonable extent.

      • Are you aware of any cases where an FFL was sued for refusing a sale and the ATF did, in fact, back them up?

        • Nope.

          But then again, I’m unaware of any court taking on a case where they’re going to admit that the FFL can be sued for denying someone’s right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment is a prohibition against the government denying a person their right to keep and bear arms.

          FFL’s are not a branch of the government. They’re private individuals, companies and corporations, who are licensed by the government. If a private individual thinks that someone else shouldn’t have a gun, then that individual/company is allowed to have such an opinion.

          This is the same reason why Facebook, Google, et al are allowed to “de-platform” someone to whom they don’t want to give a platform for speech/advertising/etc. They’re private companies.

    • “ATF is gonna get their asses sued on this one and lose badly.”
      Ever since the dirty, one sided Supreme Court manipulations in United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the ATF has been begging to “get their asses sued,…, and lose badly.” They have avoided controversy and have kept Miller from being revisited, so far, but…, one day they will go too far and have to revisit it and realize the Miller was unconstitutional.

      • “FFL’s are not a branch of the government. They’re private individuals,” WRONG. Just because you don’t get paid by the Government, you are acting as an agent for the government. You are conducting the governments business. All that paperwork isn’t for your benefit.

      • That is what I say was well. We all have an inalienable right to life, so what does any of these labels of anything matter.

        On all documents where it asks for my race I always put other and write in american. Why? That is the only label that matters.

        • You are trying to claim semantics and it is not.

          Categorizing something and specifying an individual something are are different things. Not necessarily exclusive of one another but different.

    • If you are unable to look down and discover whether you have a dick or not, I don’t trust you to define a target. No guns for you.

      • First of all, there is a MEDICAL condition called “intersex”, look it up. It affects about 1% of those born. So, yes, there needs to be an option.

        Second, just because YOU don’t like someone doesn’t mean YOU get to revoke their second amendment rights.

        Imagine the Nazis saying “if someone doesn’t recognize Jesus as their savior them they can’t be trusted with a firearm”. It’s called othering.

        • Everyone, look! Someone came here just to Virtue Signal, and call us Nazis! Isn’t that CUTE?!

          Please, tell us about all of those poor unfortunates out there, living in the shadows, with two vaginas, no rectum, three penises, five testicles, one, two, or three breasts, 5 X chromosomes, four Y chromosomes, and some left over from a bunny rabbit, that are vainly trying to buy a gun but can’t! I think that I saw one on the cover of the ‘SUN’ some years ago! Is there a support group to which I can donate?

          Please. . .

        • As l’ve been mumbling to myself on a too-frequent basis at the ever spreading fucktardism in our society today: What the hell is the matter with you? Medical condition?

        • If you have such a medical problem, you need to spend your time and money pursuing a surgical resolution before worrying about buying firearms. I think we all know that is not the problem, the problem is nutbar snowflakes demanding national attention by claiming all manner of idiotic “handicaps” which turn out to be my fault, somehow.

        • “. . . just because YOU don’t like someone doesn’t mean YOU get to revoke their second amendment rights.” This is the point, isn’t it?

          The founding generation ratified the 2A granting the right-to-arms to “the People”. The Reconstruction amendments re-arranged the definition of citizenship; thereby expanding the definition of the People. That’s the Constitution folks, and if we want to identify ourselves as constitutionalists then we had better pay careful respect to the principles.

          Perhaps the Constitution grants some power of Congress or state legislatures to strip some rights of citizenship in some cases. If it does so grant power, the extent of that power should be tightly circumscribed. We constitutionalists should be the last to willy-nilly cast-out from the rights of citizenship people who one or another of us imagine “should have guns”.

          Suppose I self-identify as a Leprechaun or a member of the Oddfellows. How is it that I thereby forfeit my right to arms? Don’t you first have to have me adjudicated as incompetent?

          Perhaps those who object to exceptional genders bearing arms should declare themselves to be non-constitutionalists.

        • First of all, nowhere NEAR 1% of the population is hermaphrodite or “intersex.” That would mean that there are over 3.5 million hermaphrodites in the US. It’s much closer to 1 in 1500 or 1 in 2000. Meaning about .0005 of the population.

          Don’t spread lies.

        • These comments are why many people have problems with the rabid pro gun posters. Even a moment of research could show that the intersex condition is a bona fide medical condition that can make gender determination difficult and ambiguous. Here, from the American psychological Association are some examples of what is called intersex:

          “Congenital adrenal hyperplasia, in which overproduction of hormones in the adrenal gland causes masculinization of the genitals in female infants.
          5-alpha-reductase deficiency, in which low levels of an enzyme, 5-alpha-reductase, cause incomplete masculinization of the genitals in male infants.
          Partial androgen insensitivity, in which cells do not respond normally to testosterone and related hormones, causing incomplete masculinization of the genitals in male infants. Penile agenesis, in which male infants are born without a penis. Complete androgen insensitivity, in which cells do not respond at all to testosterone and related hormones, causing female-appearing genitals in infants with male chromosomes. Klinefelter syndrome, in which male infants are born with an extra X (female) chromosome, which typically causes incomplete masculinization and other anomalies. Turner syndrome, in which female infants are born with one, rather than two, X (female) chromosomes, causing developmental anomalies. Vaginal agenesis, in which female infants are born without a vagina.”

          Those who would ridicule others with a medical condition that they don’t understand are as bad as President Trump ridiculing the reporter with cerebral palsy, there is no excuse for such behavior among civilized societies.

          One would question the wisdom of allowing bigots like this access to firearms, I question their worthiness to be members of our society.

        • This has actually been identified as a mental illness. This is an unstable person and should never own a gun.

    • “Gender-confused persons should not be trusted with firearms.”

      What about the species-confused?

      No, I get what you mean. But this is gonna get really, really weird really, really fast. Encyclopedia Dramatica is going to have a fucking field day.

      • I identify as a furdragon, but I’m pretty sure, biologically speaking, a human with a pillar and two stones. No confusion here. 🙂

      • I don’t really have a problem with denying a sale to someone who isn’t certain that they’re human.

        People are welcome to dress up as whatever they want and pretend to be whatever they like in the company of other consenting adults, but if they’re refusing to check a box on a government form some of the screws have gotten loose.

    • Individuals born without actual intersex disorders, i.e., chromosomal abnormalities, no. These are the people who have deluded themselves into believing they are neither male nor female. They have confused most people by having people associate them with individuals actually afflicted with an intersex disorder. They are the rage-inducing idiots who are pressuring the AMA and the APA to remove gender dysphoria from its list of illnesses. All in the name of “social justice.”

      • I have met many transgender folk, and am one myself.

        People confuse the information far to much. Virtually all of us aren’t deluded into thinking anything, it is simply a preference.

        It’s like this… I don’t like root beer so if I had another choice to drink something else I would. I don’t like root beer so much I’d rather drink from the tap even though it could be harder as I’d have to get a cup rather than just pop the can tab and sit there.

        It is a preference and in no way is it a delusion. We see what genitalia we have and we know what that means. Think for a second, if we didn’t know what we had none would seek medical intervention, just as a woman might seek a breast enlargement as she’d prefer it the other way, or a man goes to the gym to get cut.

        And to clarify something, for me the most important things are the first and second amendments and my guns come before my being transgender so for everyone’s best interest, particularly the POTG, stop being dicks and be happy to have the political support. Particularly when that ally throws a big wrench in the disarmament complex agenda.

      • That is seriously fucking disturbing. To think that there are humans who want to normalize and encourage such illnesses shows how far we have truly descended as a group. Don’t treat the illness and don’t call it as such. We need to celebrate it. Holy hell.

      • Now seriously, how is cutting off a perfectly good set of genitalia because you ‘identify’ as the opposite sex any different than cutting of a leg because you ‘identify’ as an amputee? And if you’re a doctor that enables the one you’re some sort of hero and if you’re a doctor that enables the other you’re guaranteed to lose your license and you’ll probably end up doing serious jail time. So how is a penis different than a leg?

        • One is longer than the other? One is used in bipedal motion, the other, impregnation. If ya don’t know the difference, you probably should not, 1) procreate, 2) vote, 3) should not own a gun.

        • ‘One is longer than the other?’

          Well personally, my nickname is tripod, but I suppose for some…

    • That’s the type of statement the gun control zealots use, calling us mentally defective. Whatever happened to the idea of personal freedom? However, while I feel people should be free to identify as whatever they please in their social circles, when it comes down to legality and identification I (and it disgusts me to say this) side with the ATF here.

      • And that’s the big issue here: identification.

        NICS, for those who haven’t used it, can return one of three results to an inquiry of a person’s identifying information on a 4473:

        – “Proceed” – the firearm can be transferred. The FFL records the “NTN” number on the 4473, the customer gets their gun, everyone is happy.

        – “Denied” – the firearm is NOT transferred. The FFL records the NTN number on the 4473, the customer goes away without getting a gun. The ATF and FBI are happy, the FFL is out a sale, the customer is presumably pissed off.

        – “Delayed” – the firearm cannot be transferred until after the “Brady transfer date” which is ‘x’ days later, if the FBI’s NICS database hasn’t returned any further status update before said date, and if the FFL wishes to transfer the gun. The status is recorded on the 4473, and the customer gets a gun… but…

        It is the “delayed” status that gives FFL’s heartburn, because the FBI/NICS can come back after the gun has been transferred and say ‘this is a person who is denied access to firearms.’

        Guess who is supposed to go get the gun back? The FFL. We have local FFL’s who are in the retail business (I don’t retail guns, I only work on customer guns) who have given me a heads-up that “Mr./Ms. So-n-so came back ‘denied’ after a two-week wait… and now I have to find a way to get the gun back…”

        The local LEO’s are of no assistance in this matter. (the local LEO’s won’t even check firearm serial numbers against the theft database any more for local FFL’s). Most local FFL’s I know no longer will transfer a gun until they get a clear-cut “proceed” status from NICS. Once the LEO’s said that they wouldn’t bother going after a prohibited party in possession of a gun, the FFL’s washed their hands of the issue. The FFL is stuck with all the liabilities here, and no power to undo the transaction.

        OK, so what does this have to do with SJW’s and their little intellectual perversions? One of the ways a prohibited party could probably game the NICS system long enough to get a ‘delayed’ out of NICS to buy a gun through a FFL is to play the “Heinz 57 Genders” game on a 4473. Get some state to issue ID with a new gender, then go apply to buy a gun. The FBI, after doing a bit more manual research, would/could probably come back with a ‘denied’ status eventually.

        The ATF takes a dim view of giving felons and prohibited parties a gun – if a FFL has it happen enough times, and the ATF will likely not renew your FFL when it comes up for renewal, or they’ll pull your FFL if there’s a crime committed by one of the people who gamed the system to get a gun through said FFL. In today’s environment, the FFL is probably open to civil litigation for transferring a gun to a prohibited person if that gun is used in the commission of a crime.

        What people need to realize here is that the NICS system has holes in it already.It seems as tho every other week, I’m getting an email telling me that NICS is down or has some issue that will prevent use during certain hours. Start down this road to “Today, I identify as a Kenmore Washing Machine” and most ID databases will become even more riddled with holes.

        I, personally, would like to see NICS and the Brady Act go away, but that’s probably not going to happen. I’d like even more for GCA ’68 to go away, and as a result, I wouldn’t need a FFL at all. But that’s not likely to happen either.

        • I doubt that would ever happen intentionally or unintentionally. Not because NICS is good or anything (because it ineffective, not to mention unconstitutional), but because it is a pain to get an ID’s gender code changed. It takes months of work to get a simple name change in my area let alone a demographic coding so this simply isn’t feasible, especially when you’d need a fair amount of money, money better spent by the SJWs on something that would actually do something against gun ownership with better certainty.

          And if you are saying it is a criminal just trying to get a gun, just buy one off the street. If a recent TTAG post is right that is where basically half come from anyways, and it would be cheaper. So again not gonna happen.

        • What I think most people are missing, is that an FFL can refuse to transfer a gun to anyone, they are a private business. That in no way diminishes a person’s rights under the 2nd amendment.

      • I agree. I’m transgender and I still on my 4473s list my biological gender. It isn’t a big deal and doesn’t matter… unlike that shiny new Henry and accompanying wheelgun… that DOES matter!

    • I know my gender, yet I seriously believe you doubt yours.
      But, I bet you appendix carry a 1911 with a round in the chamber with the hammer down. You may think you have bigger balls.
      I hope that, for your sake , not mine you preserve “Positive evidence of sex identification.”
      However, your doubts will eventually become reality.

    • There’s a reason why Johns Hopkins stopped doing gender/sex change operations. I think it had something to do with the patient being no happier afterwards. It wasn’t a cure-all for what was troubling them.

      • In fact, the rates of suicide among transgendered people is astonishingly high, and it is high pre-operative and it is high post-operative.

        • I’m transgender and I’m not an SJW moron so I’m not going to hide facts.

          This is completely accurate. 44% suicide rate pre-op, 42% suicide rate post-op.

          Violent crime committed by transgender folk is still no different from average, and suicide can be done with or without a gun (a large portion of transgender suicide is done without a gun so there) and shouldn’t prevent gun ownership.

          Also transgender people have a 6% homicide rate by age 40. Not to mention trans folk are 26 times more likely to be victims of physical or sexual assault than the national average.

          So yeah drop bigotry and teach a tranny to shoot, you just might get an ally!

          Yes I am a transwoman and a DIE HARD 2A absolutist. Go cry that all your perceptions are fooled! FWAHAHAHA!!!

    • Amen, if you don’t even know if you’re a boy or girl, you’re not smart enough to own a gun.

  3. In states which require a picture gun owner’s ID card, can a Muslim woman have the picture taken while wearing a burqa?

  4. Nice. All the LGBTQXYZ+++ folks on the abolish the ATF bandwagon now? This is a macro-aggression if there ever was one. Literally Hitler.

    • If we get the LGBGT community on board and then let PETA know about all the dogs BATFE puts down, we might finally get the momentum we need.

      • Judging by the comments so far….. that ain’t happening. It’s too bad. We roar about civil and constitutional rights until it’s time to acknowledge them in others.

        • You don’t have an constitutional right to be legally recognized as a fox, an apache helicopter, or anything else you are not.

        • JWM
          So are we suppose to lie to make a tranny or gay person feel better? I don’t care what kind of sex a person engages in. The sexually Liberated are socialist progressive in their political orientation. They need guns like everyone else. But the sexually Liberated totally trust government. They can complain about police mistreatment all they want. But at the end of the day they believe in the goodness of government and the police.

          People who lie about their own biology are not a friend of Liberty. Because they will use the power of government to force others to acknowledge them. The sexually liberated love to use government power to rule over free people. They don’t like free people.

          The sexually Liberated are wearing strapon dildos, well fitted for public attire. When they protest against gun civil rights at Austin Texas University. Anywhere the sexually liberated have political control, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, etc, you lose your gun civil rights. And the rest of your civil rights as well are restricted and taken away.

        • Stuart and Chris. You have a right to live your life as you see fit so long as you are not hurting others. Smoke weed, engage in sex with multiple partners of any sex. Strip naked, cover yourself with crisco and bark at the moon.

          Freedom is messy. And frequently chaotic and even ugly. But the reason freedom is so rare in human history is because folks simply won’t let others live and mind their own business.

          If freedom dies in this country it will not be at my hands.

        • Being given the illusion of freedom – because you are not… you have limited freedoms and are privileged for being born on certain soils – and trying to force a mental instability as a right to identify as a banana or a semi-truck are entirely different things. This is an example of taking it too far. The government is to blame for allowing it to get this far so people like you can call it freedom. It’s a mental disorder. Being gay is one thing, being a poster child for plastic surgery because of mental issues and screaming at people to accept them is entirely different. Get real. By your statement, we will have a President who identifies themself as a time traveler from a distant galaxy but in reality, all they did was chop their penis off and surgically implant breasts while making a meal 3 times a day out of feminine hormone pills because of too much porn hub in their pre-teens.

          Check that mental illness shit at the clinic and deal with it to prevent chaos, like we have now where grown men can enter a woman’s bathroom because they wear a dress. It’s fucking sick.

        • This. There’s a lot of talk about civil liberties until one side or the other doesn’t like the liberty that BOTH SIDES are absolutely entitled to.

        • So, b.d., you support the .gov’s right to run our lives. Nice to know. Next time I see you ranting about cops and statism I’ll remind you of your support for big brother.

        • My wife and I have shared bathrooms for over 50 years, hasn’t hurt us a bit. WTF is the uproar over unisex bathrooms, and who does not have one or two at home? You have a problem with your wife or daughter using a unisex bathroom, go with her to keep her safe.

        • JWM
          The welfare industrial complex was created by Liberals and the Left. And sadly, many Libertarians have come to like it as well. Because all of them hate the church. They hate freedom.

          John Stossel has done programs on how the Atheist/ Socialist, of Europe replaced PRIVATE CHARITY, with government hand outs. You are correct. Freedom is very messy. That’s why the three L’s need to stay the hell out of the homes and bedrooms of single mothers. And everyone else. Let them solve their own problems by meeting a man who will take care of her and her children. Instead of the Nanny State that so many Liberals totally support. That was why there is a church. For private individuals to come together to solve their own problems. Using there own private resources.

          Liberals have been sending single mothers to jail because they have sex with a man, when she is on welfare. Conservatives were correct. The Welfare System needs to be destroyed. But Liberals like telling people who they can and can’t have sex with.

          Interesting how so many homosexuals and the sexually Liberated who support the Welfare Industrial Complex. Especially the Homosexuals and the Sexually Liberated, WHO HAVE NO, children.

          These bigots have always hated how people use freedom. Its none of their business. Poverty and crime are worse because of these disgusting enablers. They are racist hypocrite pigs.

          “Good Intentions” with Walter E. Williams 27 minutes long. I’m old enough to have seen this when it was originally broadcast on PBS. One of the last times PBS had anything good to watch.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5TS8QUJWXo

          “Walter Williams: The State Against Blacks- Full Documentary” 55 minutes
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pomvHeQdATc

          “1938 Walter Williams: Suffer No Fools”‘ 54 minutes long
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZGvQcxoAPg

        • You don’t have an constitutional right to be legally recognized as a fox, an apache helicopter, or anything else you are not.

          Oh heck, my kids wanted to grow up and become dinosaurs.

        • If a person could buy a gun as easy as a hammer, and in the same place, as was the norm in times pre-guncontrol, no identification, gender or otherwise, would be required and any restriction on the purchase would be the choice of the seller. Freedom!

      • I have to know. What in hell did you just say? What foreign language is it? Is it something us OFWG POTG can learn before we leave this mortal coil?

        • “Dude, you totes need to stop mansplaining to the AMAB and AFAB communities! Totally not crunchy!”

          Translation to what I will call “Old Fogey”aka “English”: “Hey man, you totally need to stop explaining things in a high handed patriarchal manner to the Assigned Male at Birth and Assigned Female at Birth (transsexual) communities! It’s totally not acceptable!”

          Hope that helps!

        • “Translation to what I will call “Old Fogey”aka “English”: “Hey man, …….”

          Thank you for that. I didn’t even want to search the net for what I was reading, but I was curious.

  6. I’ve said for a long time that this was going to get interesting in terms of the law. I mean wait until we start hearing about the trigenders need for special forms.

    I bought a dump truck’s worth of popcorn for when the Furkin/FurBaby rights movement kicks into high gear.

    Even California politicans are going to rue the day when the Bigender, Polyamorous, Pansexual, Dragon/Foxkin Furbaby AFAB/AMAB Policy Coalition (BPPDFFAAPC) raises holy hell in Sacramento to get a bunch of legislation passed only to turn around and yell “GENDERFUCK!” at the politicians.

    And yes, every single one of these words (except BPPDFFAAPC, I made that up) is real and means something in the queer community. There’s a whole dictionary of this stuff online.

    • “Intersectionality” is a game of Calvin Ball refereed by Heath Ledger’s Joker.

      Nobody wins.

      Nobody’s MEANT to win.

      The objective is for everyone to lose, in the most humiliating and degrading fashion possible, preferably at their own hands.

        • It’s in many more places than just America. The whole world is full of mentally ill who somehow obtained power or wealth.

        • Just like the deep South for the first nine and a half decades of the twentieth century.

          West Virginia was an impoverished shithole until it turned purple a decade ago.

          there seems to be a pattern here.

        • Now that was funny! However, sadly it’s somewhat close to the mark. Though most are just greedy, corrupt politicians.

    • “If you have a penis and you think you are a woman, the science is settled, you are mentally ill.”

      What if they refer to it as, and I *quote*, “An unusually large clitoris” ?

  9. They want to know my height, weight, place of birth, age, etc. Are those subjective too?
    I’m 5’10” tall and weigh 250 lb., but I identify as a 6’2″, 180 lb. person.

    • And how about ethnicity? Shouldn’t that be subjective as well?

      It doesn’t matter who your ancestors were and what physical traits you inherited from them, you can be any ethnicity that you FEEL like being.

    • As much a rational sane person would understand and agree with this, it is becoming criminal not to agree.

    • I’m transgender and I agree. You have no duty to do that. And there is no power given to the government that says I can’t pursue happiness however fleeting it may be since it doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights.

      Everyone has a freedom of speech (at least sorta as the leftists and rich (Bloomberg and Google) are winning and we’re losing our rights (no I’m not socialist)) so say what you like, and I can always just say something right back. The existence of hate speech is a lie, but polite etiquette is respectable but not necessary or required. That is the glory of freedom.

      Oh and as its been mentioned more than once already, not all transgender folks are pro bathroom bill. I’m not. I know several others who aren’t either. And even if all were in support of those bills the argument that is often used against them is ridiculous… “A man in a dress is in there with your daughter”… Well if that man in a dress wasn’t in there with your daughter they’d be with your son, so is it really any better in the asinine trope you’re attempting to portray?

      And if one did pass it wouldn’t matter. 4% of the population is gay or nonconforming and .6% of the population is transgender or non-specified. And that is rounded up. It is borderline a rounding error. Not one person would likely ever notice.

      Not trying to support or denounce just pointing out, it doesn’t matter.

      • And I really do mean HEAVILY rounded up.

        Trans folk are about 1 in every 1000 people.

        (should have been more specific)

  11. BRAIN TWISTED ,FUR-TRADERS AND POOP-POPPERS ARE MENTAL FREAKS THAT SHOULD NEVER—–NEVER HAVE A FIREARM OR A CCW, NUF-SAID.

  13. Oh, the huge manatee!!!

    The ATF must be forced to fix this terrible transgression immediately. Until they can treat all genders fairly, how ever many dozens there may be, they should cease and desist infringing upon those who’s genders they do accept. Re-assign all employees from all sections to this task. Rip out all the old computers. Shred all the old forms and rule books. Buy gender friendly computers and write new gender accepting software. Write new rules for everything, fixing all gender specific language and requirements.

    Re-purpose the entire ATF budget to get this done quickly. Until then we must, in the name of fairness to all, suspend all regulations created by the gender-dysfunctional Old ATF.

    By quickly I figure on “Govt Bureaucrat Speed”.

    So, around twenty years later, with any luck, with all of us gun folks grandfathered in on whatever the hell we felt like buying in that time, by golly the ATF will be back in business!!!

    Yes, if you look for it, there’s a silver lining to every little black cloud.

  14. I am in reality a 6′-3″ person that is 62 years old and weighs north of 350 pounds. I would like to identify as a 6′-6″ 35 year old marathon running former track star with a super model wife and a $100,000,000 fortune. Can I do that in today’s society? What if tomorrow, I want to be the Viking God of War? I really don’t see any difference from wanting to be female even though I was born a male. No limits and no restrictions, right? These new societal rules make my head hurt.

    • ‘…and a $100,000,000 fortune.’

      HA! Try ‘identifying’ as rich and see where that gets you! (My money is on prison.)

        • Obviously, you are unfamiliar with the Holy Bible. This was in the Old Testament and, even then, it wasn’t God’s design. Christ made it abundantly clear that from the beginning, God made one man and one woman.

        • I held a marriage ceremony in my home between an AR-15 and a bump stock. They loved each other a great deal. But the government refuses to recognize them. Very very sad.

          I hope someday they can March together in a gay pride parade protesting their love and affection for each other in government defiance.

    • JWM
      I have Vickers manual from WW1. Complete with range cards from France if you need an overhaul. It was my great uncles.

    • It’s not about defending themselves… it’s a question of mental stability that allows you to purchase firearms.

        • Did you have to pass a background check or a criminal record check to obtain a legal firearm? Sorry, but the mental issue is coming too. No matter how invasive it is for us “normal” people, it is there to stop the crazy people who would rather make an issue over what they identify as instead of simply coping with a two box choice in order to defend themselves. Check one, defend yourself. Not that complicated. Unless you are in one of those states that don’t give a shit about your right to defend yourself, then to that I could say, does this argument really even matter? Try to look at the bigger picture. Mental issues. You are either a male, or a female. Birth complications aside, your birth certificate will still say one or the other. Science… Biology… Only two sexes in the human genome. We are not asexual creatures. If a Whiptail Lizard or Komodo Dragon all the sudden gains the ability to talk and fight for equal rights, then we can talk.

        • Common sense would tell you that the purpose of someone like this purchasing a firearm would be suicide.

        • Larry. Suicide is the right of the individual. The .gov has no business in forcing folks to stay here. I know the issue is much more complex than this. But, bottom line, the individual controls their life and fate or the .gov does.

        • I’ve already said it once earlier, transgender suicides rarely involve firearms.

          Violence to trans folk is common, so should self defense by transfolk.

          Mental illnesses should only prevent firearm ownership if that illness has proven to be a problem for that person in the past when it comes to violence.

          Suicide should be legal anyways. Should have stuff put in place to help prevent it like the suicide hotline but shouldn’t be outlawed.

  18. Sex is a biological fact (developmental disorders and chromosomal abnormalities aside). Gender is something humans made up to limit socially acceptable behavior based on sex. The continued existence of this nebulous and arbitrary concept of gender serves no useful purpose, is harmful, and is inherently discriminatory. To “identify” as this or that gender is to restrict one’s own social freedom to explore a whole host of thought, speech, and action; you’re virtually shooting yourself in the foot.

    • ehhh wrong. Gender is a scientific (and as you said, biological) fact. Gender, is sex. It’s just a definition of it. Not a social construct. Marriage is a social construct.

      It’s okay to be confused, but when you are wrong, don’t make yourself look like more of an ass by forcing your opinion to be factual.

      • No, you’re the one who’s confused. Gender and sex are not synonyms – they never have been – although they are often confused because of people’s aversion to using the word “sex.”

        And a word of advice: accusing people of being “an ass” just makes you look like one, especially when you’re showing your ignorance by “correcting” them.

        • Sorry but D.B is correct. Sex and Gender are the same. Just because you wish something to be one way doesn’t mean that it is. Its like looking at a rabbit and saying it’s a dog. No matter how much you kick and scream and demand it’s a dog, it’s still just a rabbit

        • Actually you are all right. Unfortunately both gender and sex have a lot of definitions. Open a dictionary. You are all right. You’re all wrong.

  19. WTF, possum is not a fan of the LGBQT whatever community and would not sell a gun,a knife, or anything, to any one having anything to do with it.. flame on, it’s still America and I have my rights too, yah know. I don’t wanna hear, rights for me and none for thee, I said “I would not sale”, what u do is your business.

    • I must apologize for my above comment, that was very human of me. My comment should have been more directed to why a person would want to flaunt their preference or challenge to gender. It is in my opinion that while filling out a 4473 or when dealing with the Feds, is not an opportune time to” Hear Me Roar”, The repercussions are never good..

      • My thoughts exactly. Check a box, defend yourself. End of discussion. All this “roaring” does is question their mental stability which is a HUGE issue when purchasing a firearm and the reason some states have a waiting period and other infringements on our 2A. But overall, If you can’t look at your DL or birth certificate or down between your legs and put aside your selfish motives for your right to bear arms, then why the fuck should anyone care? Stop causing problems where there are none.

        • Agreed. Tick the box and walk out with your gun. If the box bothers you that much buy and extra box of ammo and use it on a target that says ATF. See if you can keep the shots in the hole in the A.

          Or better yet… Build a ghost gun and say “Up yours, ATF!!”

      • That ruling was absurd. A small private business should have freedom of service or refusal. Money is money but hey it should be their choice to accept or refuse customers.

  20. I’m gonna sit back and watch this legal fight without really feeling strongly. That said, I find the ATF’s motivation of ‘not wanting to bother ‘ as being legally precarious.

  21. Leave the religion out of it. It’s a mental disease… same as religion. Well, to be fair, you’ve allowed yourself to be manipulated in to hypocrisy, so maybe religion is just an IQ thing.

    • Religion is not an IQ thing or a mental disorder (nearly all the brilliant men in history were religious), but you’re right, bring religion into it and all the panty-twisters like you come out and start blabbing about a flying spaghetti monsters or some ridiculous nonsense like that. Best come up with an argument that even people who think man is the supreme authority in the universe can agree on.

  22. No exceptions. Either join the fight to repeal the GCA and Brady Bill or get lost.

    No. We won’t give you special treatment.

  24. according to the new drivers license rules for you license deemed as federal compliant Id it has to have a total description I know had to My birth cert. bills showing address ss card and my wife even had to have our marriage license because of name change and all this has to be done in order to be compliant and certified US ID so it has to have sex on it

  26. Tough chit weirdos. Check a box-get a gun. Duh…if I have to you shouldn’t get special dispensation.

    • Yeah, complaining on a box to check is ridiculous. The ATF doesn’t care for anyone’s “feelz”. If it did, it wouldn’t exist.

      Like I said before: check box, get gun, get extra ammo, go shoot ATF posters at your range, go build ghost gun, say “Up yours ATf”.

    • I’m rooting for transmultiwhoozit. I really want the ATF to look dumb. Or dumber than they normally look.

  30. In H.G. Wells the Time Machine, there’s an often ignored part at the end where the time traveler jumps millions of years into the future and comes across some short kangaroo like creatures he believes are the descendants of the extinct human race. I believe he wasn’t far off on that prediction.

  31. I think i remember Christ saying something about loving them… Kinda hard to do while rounding them up and throwing them into camps. All this talk by Christians about rounding them up and putting them in camps is an excuse for the lazy and selfish Christian to not do as Christ commanded and did.

    Homosexuality is neither a disease or mental illness, it is the natural result of unbridled lust, no more, no less.

  32. The second ammendment does not mention any restrictions based on gender; binary or otherwise.

    If a law abiding American wants to buy a gun – they should be able to do so, regardless of their religion, gender or sexual preferences.

    If you disagree with this – you are a hypocrite and really no better than Dianne Feinstein.

    • Aside from a very tiny percentage of people with genetic abnormalities, everyone is born with either a penis or vagina. Check the box containing your birth organs. Done.

      This is a total non-issue, and there’s literally no reason for anyone to get offended. It has nothing to do with who you are now, it’s about who you were when you were born.

    • So check a fucking box and be done with it. They had to do it for a SSN, a DL, a birth certificate, among THOUSANDS of other things. Even Google asks you that shit. If they had asked for a “prefer not to say” option, then the background check would do it’s thing and find out for them. But nope… it’s gotta be made into this huge issue about nobody accepting their mental issues. Fuck outta here with that hypocrite shit. Stop complicating “limited freedoms”.

  34. I thought we were talking about the Sex of the gun.
    My Webley is definitely a Male. My 32 pistol I am not sure about.

  35. Good… there is a question on the buyer form that asks the question about being mentally unfit ( like anyone is going to say , ya I’m nuts) so that question alone disqualifies them from buying a weapon… since doctors themselves have a word for it, something like gender disphopia or something like that… in real words thy means their stupid crazy…

  36. Awwww shit now there goes my AR’s defense that it self identify’s as a bolt action rifle with single round magazines!

  37. Simple solution. Do away with all paperwork for a gun sale. No boxes to check, no one gets their tit or any other appendage in the wringer.

    • Now that I can work with… but society has progressed beyond the capability to do so and our government is far too big to let you be so free. Why? Because they would be fucked… again. Don’t you know? Only they can possess the weapons to kill innocents when they identify them as a threat and portray them as domestic terrorists through manipulation tactics and the “facts” spread to the media.

      I am all for “Give everyone a gun”, but I am also not for the crackhead that lives somewhere around my neighborhood who served a prison sentence for manslaughter to an innocent person because he needed some soda at the corner store and got off through some bullshit legal fault in “providing evidence” able to possess a firearm.

      It’s a no win scenario. Society is a shitty thing and so is evolution and self awareness. So I’d rather integrate mental background checks for stuff like this since they cannot simply check a box by looking between their legs and choosing what is more important. If they had said, can we have a “prefer not to say option” and allowed the background check and other checks to figure it out for them, I’d be all for it. But screaming about not being accepted for their mental issues is not going to win this battle.

      • The dude you speak of shouldn’t be let out then. If he/she/they/etc can be let out, then they can have everything else that you and I are entitled to. Either too bad or not bad. There’s no more middle ground. Will this require massive justice system overhaul? Yes. Will it be easy or cheap? No. If you can be let out, you can have a belt fed and hand grenades, an eight ball of coke, and dress like whatever sex you think you are or feel you are, and you can pay for sex or charge for sex.

        The issue starts at morality, and grows from irresponsibility and bad parenting.

  39. My prediction is that the government comes to a solution requiring EVERYONE to get an additional document from some Federal institution to explain how drivers license gender is to be used on 4473s that:
    1) raises money for the government
    2) takes time to get and
    3) makes it more difficult for EVERYONE (binary gender or in transition or at Transition 0) to Buy a gun which is at minimum like a waiting period

    Courts will let it stand because it is a fee

  40. How about we just change the law to add a checkbox for “None of your g-dammed business!” to this and every other question of the form?

  41. Why should the government care what sex and gender people are? Remove that field from this and all other forms and identification.

    Problem solved.

  42. This would be a good case for the Nutty Ninth Circuit.
    Hey, we now have a non binary sexual orientation that is fluid.

  43. Good on the ATF, for once! I don’t care WHAT you THINK you are. Your body tells the tale, even if YOU choose NOT to BELIEVE it. Tired of stupid people that believe they can define their own gender.

  44. AAAAAAnd this is why we cannot have nice things.

    The correct answer is “constitutional purchase,” the ATF has really no business determining who can own guns. Even felons and pot smokers have the right to self defense. Forget the fact that most people (over 65%) in NICS are in there for “unlawful illegal immigration” or non-violent offenses. ATF does not even follow up on NICS denials anyway.

    We cannot have nice things because “gun people” insist on bringing other cultural war issues with them. The correct answer: why does the ATF care what gender you identify with? Because of a software issue? Unconstitutional, get real people.

    Anyone who identifies as X, Y, Z, LGBTQ, or whatever, I will be more than happy to show them how to defend themselves and figure out a way to get them the means (legally of course). Because the right to self defense should apply to all humans, not merely the Republicans. Maybe when people get that, NRA will have enough members to actually beat back gun laws, which in the end hurt minorities the most, same as it ever was.

  45. The SJW’s are right! Its sexist transphopic etc. yadda yadda yadda.
    We should eliminate 4473’s immediately! For the LGBTQXYZABC community!

  46. Another thing. If you do not have a Carry Permit in a State where they substitute for NICS, GET ONE. Otherwise, if you think your name is similar to a Bad Guy’s name or is very commen, put your SSN on the form so NICS can distinguish you from the Bad Guy. After all, the Government already know your SSN, so not putting it on may get you a DELAY, or the dreaded DENIED.

  47. When I sell a gun in my store, I personally sign the 4473 as the transferor — nobody else. It’s my ass on the line. So if a potential buyer refuses to answer any question, I’m going to decline him or her or it, and I don’t give a sh!t who it offends.

  48. The apathy of the common American is immense, especially if they’re asked to take sides in a politically incorrect scenario such as the one being discussed here, IE: gender. The common answer when asked if they think gender is fluid is; if it doesn’t concern me then I don’t care. No rational thought was put into that answer. Some sort of vague ideology about how freedom to be is paramount and how everyone deserves to be considered as whatever they feel like they are (whatever choice is fashionable at the moment).
    But that’s not how the Constitution/BOR reads. We only have the right to pursue, not to have. Abnormal/mentally ill people that like to think science doesn’t apply to them can pursue that dream all they want, but point-of-fact is that the government is NOT obligated to legalize it like they have/are trying to.
    Being whatever you think you are IS a God given right since mind control is outside the scope of modern science, but it is NOT a right that should be protected by the government, because that particular mental illness is not spelled out in the bill of rights.

    • I disagree on something.

      The answer should be “it doesn’t oppose enumerated rights and as such falls under the ninth amendment so the government has no business dealing with this topic and everyone should feel free to do whatever”.

      So actually it is listed. Read the ninth amendment, which basically in part says that just because something isn’t specified doesn’t mean citizens do not have the right to it. You cannot have one amendment from the Bill of Rights without the other nine.

  50. All the shrill drama queen (pun intended) p|$$ing and moaning about the ATF getting sued and “losing badly” for offending some poor “Gurl” trying to buy a gun is absolutely hilarious. The cold hard truth is that a myriad of Federal statutes and case law make it virtually impossible to prevail in any lawsuit against the Federal Government, and even a plaintiff prevails after a lengthy and costly legal battle, when the Feds are defendents in a lawsuit, immunity and tort limits means they never “lose badly” monetarily.

  51. Complete Proof that they want to know exactly who is keeping guns and what kind of guns. Guns aren’t supposed to be being registered. This proves that is exactly what they are doing. This is bigger then how people self identify. It’s about power and control.

  53. I think everyone was missing the main point on this article anyways.

    The point seems to be just to inform others, like those who have the non-binary code, that they just have to check a box that coincides with their birth certificate so that the 4473 doesn’t give a false denial.

    This was never meant as a “look at the crazies” article. Those that asked the ATF were trying to help the fellow citizens get a gun without running afoul of ridiculous rules and forms.

    Though a secondary point may have been to show that gun control laws, even supposedly “common-sense legislation” like background checks, do disproportionately negatively affect minorities.

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