ATF headquarters washington, DC
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By Lee Williams

Companies selling 80% receivers and other homemade firearm parts have been getting uncomfortable calls and questions from their credit card firms and payment processors. Their ability to process payments could soon end, they’re being told.

Grid Defense, formerly Ghost Firearms, which is located in Daytona Beach, Florida, got a call from their Mastercard payment processor Wednesday.

“We were told we may be violating some of their policies regarding ATF’s new frame and receiver rule,” said TJ, co-owner of Grid Defense.

To be clear, he does not blame their payment processor or even Mastercard. He blames the ATF for not providing accurate and timely guidance. Of course, his biggest concern is what will come next – when will the ATF tell the financial industry that ARs or even ammunition should not be purchased with credit cards.

80% lower
80% AR lower (courtesy Grid Defense)

“The ATF is not being clear about their frame and receiver rule, which went into effect last month, so they’re causing private companies to be confused about their ruling, and it is going to negatively effect this industry,” he said.

“The ATF likes to muddy the waters with confusion, and it’s starting to effect American commerce and the Second Amendment. I hope these large financial companies choose to support the Second Amendment. If they don’t and the ATF will muddy the waters over unfinished receivers, what will be next?”

For his business, the frame and receiver rule is relatively simple, TJ said. The 80% AR receivers he sells do not come with drilling jigs or finishing instructions. As such, they’re considered an unfinished receiver and not a firearm.

“As far as the federal government will tell you – the ways they’ve described the rule – unfinished receivers without a jig or finishing instructions remain fully legal and not a firearm,” TJ said. “Nothing has theoretically changed since the way business was done previously, with respect to the aluminum 80% AR-type receivers.”

Grid Defense has already received several determination letters from the ATF, and recently submitted several more determination requests.

“The ATF is not answering those, which is causing private financial companies to react even though it’s not necessarily the law, because of the ATF’s unwillingness to give further guidance on the matter,” TJ said. “We are fortunate. We believe our payment processor is 2A-friendly and that they are on board with disputing allegations that we are violating the rules. We have worked with them, but we believe Mastercard may not understand it and is not getting the correct guidance from the ATF.”

Grid Defense has reached out to other businesses offering similar products, and was told they, too, are being questioned.

“We can still sell and ship products to customers. We can still do it,” TJ said. “There’s no reason we’re not allowed to take payment processing for them.”

ATF Public Information Officers in Florida did not return calls seeking comment for this story.

 

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103 COMMENTS

  1. “ATF Public Information Officers in Florida did not return calls seeking comment for this story.”

    Thinking SAF’s first call should have been to MasterCard.

      • “You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
        “2. relate to transactions involving…(j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (k) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.”

        PayPal does not define “certain firearm parts or accessories.”

        • PayPal’s absolute horror at the thought of using their services for anything even remotely related to firearms (even holsters, slings, etc) is one of the main reasons eBay, years ago, adopted a firm policy of refusing any listings even remotely related to guns etc. It was PayPal drove that.

          Amazon,same thing.

          There are other payment services, I don’t know their policies but Venmo and Zelle are widely used for person to person transactions, and I use them for payments to me for my business.

          SOME enterprising soul needs to put together a payment service that WILL serve this industry. Whoever does it will reap HUGE rewards.

      • Every website I’ve seen to date that claims to sell firearm-related gear and accepts crypto has turned out to be a scam site.

      • Trust me, MajorStupidity,

        If we were going to essay that forlorn hope of a project, you would be the LAST person (well, maybe second or third from last; dacian the demented and Prince Albert the Ponce need to be factored in) we would choose to do it.

        Let it go, child, we got this.

        • “Let it go, child, we got this”

          Thanks, Pops!

          I have complete confidence in your abilities. But y’all still might want to get a dictionary so that you can properly spell the word ‘receiver’, it would keep y’all from looking so silly.

        • Oh, I am quite aware of how to spell “receiver”, child. And I own several dictionaries (including an Oxford condensed; the full Oxford occupied too much library shelf space). I, like most, occasionally “fat-finger” a word.

          You, on the other hand, are incapable of not looking silly, and unfortunately, a dictionary, a thesaurus, AND an encyclopedia would avail you not; you lack the wit to employ them.

          Have fun being an inept, lying, Leftist/fascist propagandist. It’s “on brand” for you. You are clearly the Kanye West of our forum.

  2. I just received an email from U.S. Patriot Armory stating that they’re still selling Polymer80 “blanks” (what USPA is now calling them in an apparent CYA, instead of “frames”). The blanks only, without the finishing jigs. Blanks must be ordered separately, by themselves, as the sole item in a particular order submitted. Anything else must be submitted in a different order.

    Yesterday someone I’ve known for many years told me to my face that Trump is “poison” and “toxic for America”. Nobody’s perfect, but the AFT wasn’t in rabid dog mode during his presidency.

    • That’s because under the ATF rules as written now its not a firearm if its sold without the finishing jig.

      • It’s because we are living in leftism world where if something is accompanied by something else it is magically changed into something else. So an 80% lower becomes a receiver not when it is machined into one, but when it is sold with “tools.”

        Just like the Sig silencer/compensator attachment on their barrels that the ATF went after them on, and that stupid judge ruled in their favor. It’s a silencer because it has a part in it, that “might” be used to make a silencer. Never mind that it silences nothing. So it doesn’t become a silencer when it is finally made into one, it becomes a silencer simpler because it has one part in it that looks like something inside a silencer.

        • and I’ve got a five gallon bucket with a few hundred washers dumped at ramdon into it. I”m sure at least a few score COULD be assembled, along with other parts not in the same bucket (not even on my piece of dirt) into a suppressor. Are BATF going to come round knocking up my door to arrest me for having a “silencer” that is not registered?
          Maybe I should head over to my local fsterner suppier (the largest in the state) and put in a chit for maybe five cartons of washers that would be well suited for assembly into silencers.

          These clowns at BATF (perverts would be a more accurate term, I believe) are no longer legislating against realtiy but against their own fantasies. Never mind they have NO authority to even be legislating.. but legislte they do, in abundance, and an abundance of stupidity.

    • “Yesterday someone I’ve known for many years told me to my face that Trump is “poison” and “toxic for America”.”

      Dims aren’t the only ones who navigate life based primarily on “feels”.

      Yes, Trump is toxic. He lost in 2020 because his negatives were so high (same reason Hillary lost in 2016). If he runs again, he will likely lose again…causing severe damage to his political supporters. Trump could actually take down all Repub candidates. Worst of it is Trump can serve only one term (wonder if he understands that?).

      Right now, Trump seems to be signaling that his would be a revenge presidency, with no consideration of the aftermath. And though Trump has seen many of “his” candidates win in primaries, should those candidates win in the general elections, they likely will be out numbered in the House and Senate. As before, Trump has virtually zero “coattails”; the political elites will not defend/support Trump’s agenda (should it be more than revenge).

      Yes, barring an amazing “star” politician (hopefully not taken from any current/then current office), I will vote for Trump.

      • “Yes, barring an amazing “star” politician (hopefully not taken from any current/then current office)…”

        And here’s the star, with high approval numbers and very little ‘baggage’ the Leftist Scum ™ can attack. National/International experience as US ambassador :

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBGcz_ExIR8

        • “Sounds like this forum is infiltrated and trying to sway potential voters 🤔”

          Nope. If Trump runs, there is likely no viable alternative for Repubs. Trump is light years more acceptable than a Dim. Point is, understand who/what you are voting for. Trump, like all humans, will disappoint on something. Better the disappointment not be because his supporters were naive.

        • If you haven’t made up your mind and picked a side by now, you have bigger issues to consider. The differences could not more clear.

      • Trump champions exactly the political agenda I want, but he’s a loose cannon, rolling around the deck, firing indiscriminately (metaphorically speaking). Give Trump credit for waging warfare against an overwhelmingly entrenched political system populated by big government tyrants. It’s understandable that his brand of political warfare tends to be slash-and-burn with no prisoners taken. I admire that approach, but I think it alienates too many low-information, fuzzy-headed voters. I hope he decides to take a lower profile; but yes, I, too, will vote for Trump if he runs in 2024.

        • “Give Trump credit for waging warfare against an overwhelmingly entrenched political system manned by big government tyrants.”

          I do give Trump credit. Thoroughly enjoyed watching him play smash-mouth politics with the Dims and media. Will enjoy it again, if Trump wins. But I have no illusions Trump will turn things completely around, and go out on high note.

        • Thoroughly enjoyed watching him play smash-mouth politics with the Dims and media“

          Of course, that’s what politicians do.

          Unfortunately, we needed a statesman who represented all Americans, not just the crazy conspiracy theorist “poorly educated” folks.

        • MajorStupidity,

          “Unfortunately, we needed a statesman who represented all Americans, not just the crazy conspiracy theorist . . . ”

          Yeah, and instead we got Senile Joe, the serial child molester, and his criminal, crackhead son.

          I’m curious to see your answer. Name the most recent “statesman who represented all Americans”. If you have the guts to respond, your answer will be a laugh riot.

        • “demtard election FRAUD“

          As the former Attorney General of the United States of America said, that’s just “bullshit”.

          And you’ll be sure to donate to trumps PAC, he will need the cash for his bug out stash, I understand food is expensive in North Korea.

        • “Nothing about that has changed since Jan 2021“

          Well, there are over 800 militant insurrectionists who have been charged with federal crimes, and quite a few have either pleaded guilty or been convicted in court and are now serving lengthy prison sentences.

          Personally, I’m enjoying the fact that it looks as if the Georgia Felonies will actually be prosecuted first, Trump in the Georgia state pen is a precious thought.

        • MajorStupidity,

          And all us cool guys ALWAYS trust and believe our benevolent gummint, and all its highly qualified, trained, and honest minions, amirite.xi

          What did Fauxi say about masks? “Oh, which time?” you might ask, but you won’t. “Fauxi handled AIDS, COVID (and now monkeypox) BRILLIANTLY!! All hail St. Fauxi!” “Scranton Joe’s ‘Inflation Reduction Act’ is gonna REDUCE INFLATION!!”

          There is nothing too stupid for a Leftist/fascist to believe, or at least pretend to believe, particularly if it advances the authoritarian power of the state.

          Your pathetic, slavish, worshipful love of “government” is only one of your many moral and intellectual flaws, but it sure as hell is one of the stupidest.

        • MajorStupidity,

          “Whatever…”

          OOOHHH!!!! Sick burn, dude!!!

          Next time you venture such a breathtakingly meaningless response, give me some warning. It took me almost a microsecond to grasp how utterly vapid and pathetic that response was.

          You’re slipping, MajorStupidity. As you sink daily deeper into your pathetic TDS, your once-slender grasp on reality has wholly disappeared. Nowadays, other than DNC talking points and pathetic attempts at snark, you are literally grasping at straws. And not grasping any.

      • Sam,

        I guess you’ve looked at all the evidence and determined the 2020 election was not stolen.

        Interesting that we have come to different conclusions.

        • “I guess you’ve looked at all the evidence and determined the 2020 election was not stolen.”

          Not at all.

          Fact: If someone can get the case to court, and if the decision is that the election was stolen, there is no means by which an election can be overturned.

          Moving on, my comment is based on the next presidential election is not subject to fraud sufficient to steal the election. If we are in a condition where presidential elections can be stolen as a matter of course, then Repubs can just fold the tents, and Trump becomes a cipher (along with all other non-Dems).

        • LifeSavor,

          Do I believe there was extensive f***ery committed in the 2020 election? Yep. Has anyone proven it? Nope (granted, no one has been allowed the opportunity). Was there enough from EITHER side to influence the outcome? I dunno . . . and neither do you.

          I have my opinions, but we all know about opinions and certain body parts. I would love to see a REAL investigation, and even trial if the evidence supports it, to examine that very issue. And in our current system and environment, the chances of that are slim and none . . . and Slim just left the building.

          But Sam is also correct that there IS no Constitutional corrective procedure for such an instance. As much as I find it embarrassing and repugnant, Joseph Robinette Biden IS the President of the United States. All two and a half functioning brain cells of him.

          Love it, hate it, but dem’s de facts, Jack.

      • Regardless of who the Republican candidate is, they will be worst ever after the media goes after them. Jesus could be the one and they would trot out he spoke to the devil and colluded with him.

        • “Jesus could be the one and they would trot out he spoke to the devil and colluded with him.”

          That would be a natural response.

        • Well you know, the fact is according to the holy scripture, Jesus created the devil and all the evil we see here on earth.

          Thanks, thanks a lot…

        • MajorStupidity,

          I have a new, totally amateur, diagnosis of your mental state. You are a bizarre form of mental masochist. If it were JUST “leading with your chin” on matters of religion, you’d be pathetic. But you KEEP leading with your chin, even after the tenth or twelfth knockdown.

          No, you absolute @$$clown, JESUS did NOT create Lucifer. Jesus didn’t exist until well after Lucifer being cast out of Heaven, and becoming Satan. God did, in fact, create Heaven and earth. Jesus was BORN, you complete drooling moron. Born of a miracle? Yes. Born of woman? Yes. Son of God? Yes. One of the three faces of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit – maybe you’ve heard of it???). Yes.

          You REALLY aren’t very good at this, MajorStupidity. In fact, when it comes to theology and theological debate? You flat suck greasy puppydog nuts.

        • “JESUS did NOT create Lucifer. Jesus didn’t exist until well after Lucifer being cast out“

          So Jesus is not God, and he is not the author of the Bible?

          Fascinating, I’ve talked with many Christians who do not share your particular brand of religious delusion.

          Regardless, the ‘Lord’ claims to have made evil in his holy book of primitive taboos.

          Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

          So Jesus is not Lord, I’m glad we got that cleared up.

        • Oh PUH-LEEEZE, MajorStupidity,

          Do not compound your idiocy with childish illogic (and further display your COMPLETE ignorance of history and Christian doctrine and dogma). If you knew WTF you were talking about with respect to Christian doctrine, Jesus is “the son of God, born of woman”. Also conceived by a miracle. Upon his death, resurrection and Ascension “he ascended to the right hand of God, where he rules with him”, becoming, AGAIN, mushbrain, one face of the Triune God. (Shit, shortbus, I learned this in Sunday School when I was about 8 – for a self-anointed “intellectual”, you really don’t know very much, do you???).

          BECAUSE Jesus was a man, born of woman (Mary) . . . he did not exist until his conception (did you learn that in basic Biology, say about 8th or 9th grade???). After his birth, sacrifice, and Ascension, he is and remains part of the Triune God (there is a more complex and meaningful definition and explanation of the Triune God, but I won’t waste it on you – “pearls before swine” doesn’t even come close.). JESUS did not create Lucifer, nor cast him down. God did. When that event occurred, Jesus had not been born, so no, Jesus did NOT create Lucifer, OR cast him down.

          Don’t try to be clever, child, you aren’t very good at it.

        • @Lamp,

          Jesus “emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.”

          Paul goes on to summarize Jesus’s mission and eventual place in heaven, above all. “And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”.

          – Philippians 2:7-11

      • As a former Bump stock owner I will vote for President Trump if he runs again. And any republican who runs, “will be made toxic”, by the media and the democrats. Gov Ron Desantis is right now being made toxic to low information voters.

        • It isn’t the media, but rather Governor DeSantis’ engaging in human trafficking of illegal aliens for political purposes that is causing folks to have second thoughts about his suitability as a candidate

        • MajorStupidity,

          What do you call Senile Joe’s over 70 clandestine, late night flights around the country, transporting illegal aliens, pudding brain??

          If you weren’t such a BLATANT lying, propagandizing partisan POS, . . . you’d still be stupid.

        • “What do you call Senile Joe’s over 70 clandestine, late night flights around the country, transporting illegal aliens, pudding brain??“

          So what would you have the government do with unaccompanied minors at the border, sending the children back over the border alone does seem like a typical Republican conservative value.

          So apparently you don’t follow any of the stuff that your lord Jesus taught, something about “what you do for the least among you you do for me” seems to have gone over your head.

          “Those encountered at the border who have been allowed to remain are, by and large, unaccompanied minors. They typically are taken first to facilities near the border and then transferred to the temporary custody of the U.S. Health and Human Services department, which eventually places the children with family or sponsors in the U.S. If family members or approved sponsors are not able to arrange transportation, the federal government pays for transportation, including flights.”

          https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/mar/16/tyler-kistner/claims-biden-secretly-flying-immigrants-us-cities-/

          You know, just parroting the extremist Republican conservative talking points is not a path towards truth.

        • MajorStupidity,

          “So what would you have the government do with unaccompanied minors at the border, sending the children back over the border alone does seem like a typical Republican conservative value.”

          So, what would you have Ron deSantis do, when the Dims in Washington constantly prate about, and raise money off of, our “immigration crisis”, but steadfastly refuse to actually do anything about it??? Senile Joe (or more accurately, his handlers; Joe can’t decide which type of pudding he prefers) flies your beloved “unaccompanied minors” (they are unaccompanied, mushbrain, because EITHER their parents abandoned them or died en route) and other illegal aliens, all around the country (but largely to red states, and he’s been doing it for almost two years), without notice to, or coordination with, local authorities (which might enable local authorities to be prepared to offer services to said “refugees”).

          But that is typical of you lying Leftist/fascists is to bleat PUBLICLY about your “empathy” and “compassion”, open the border to get more voters (and don’t EVEN come back with that bulls*** about how illegal aliens “can’t vote”, you lying fraud, because we all know they DO – which is why you lying Leftist/fascists oppose voter ID), and then leave the border states to deal with the problem YOU created.

          And then you “pay” for all of it with OPM – namely, mine.

          “Charity”, you pathetic @$$clown, is VOLUNTARY giving. Taking OTHER PEOPLE’S tax money to virtue signal isn’t “charity”, you idiot, it’s a silly, faux-Robinhoodism that Christ would have scorned. The story of the Widow’s Mite, IF you had the wit to understand it, would be instructive on this point.

          And then you top it off with the BLATANT hypocrisy of decrying DeSantis sending your beloved illegal immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard – a place acknowledged by everyone to be the paradise of rich liberal idiots, and a self-declared “sanctuary city”, which . . . then turns around and ships them off to a military base, rather than ACTUALLY taking them in and extending REAL charity.

          Why is it impossible for you to tell the truth, or deal with reality, MajorStupidity???? Is it because you are a lying, Leftist/fascist propagandist, or are you REALLY that stupid??? Inquiring minds want to know.

      • Sam,

        My list of conservative/libertarian candidates that would be (on platform, policy, and philosophy) better than Trump is nigh on to endless. As others have noted (you included) Trump excelled at playing smash mouth politics (albeit in a somewhat ham-handed way), but there are others who do it as well, or nearly as well, without all the drama that comes along with the Trumpster. Got LOTS of choices I prefer over Trump . . . strange thing, not a SINGLE one of them is a Dimocrat or “independent” or “social democrat” or “Progressive”.

        Not a fan of the man (including one incident where I had actual, direct interaction with Donnie T., sufficient to convince me he was an arrogant putz). If my alternatives are DJT or ANY current Dimocrat/Leftist/”social democrat”/”Progressive”/”independent”??? I vote for DJT with a smile on my face and a song in my heart.

        • “sufficient to convince me he was an arrogant putz”

          And that is exactly the sort of leader the crazy right wing conspiracy folks wanted, someone willing to mirror their fears and anger.

          When you have crazy beliefs, you really appreciate someone willing to stand up on the microphone and tell you you are right and your failures are not because of your own ignorance or fear, but rather the mysterious folks who are holding you down.

        • Oh, cry me a f***in’ river, MajorStupidity!! You carry water for the single stupidest man EVER to infect the White House – the senile, corrupt, drooling moron of a child molester that we are inflicted with today.

          So, just to get this straight, you prefer a senile husk of an idiot president (who was an idiot BEFORE he was president) over a guy who does mean tweets. Does that about sum it up??

          You are literally too f***ing stupid to breathe air.

      • “Trump could actually take down all Repub candidates“

        Just the ones who continue to support his traitorous ass.

        • Those that project accusations on someone else, they themselves carry those same beliefs!!!!!

          It is clear that you are all in on turning the USA into a “MARXIST” nation..

          ALL in on voter fraud if it means keeping out your enemies!!!

          And “NO” 800 people have not been charged, the vast majority are being detained without bail and without charges!!!!

        • “And “NO” 800 people have not been charged, the vast majority are being detained without bail and without charges!!!!“

          I’m sorry, it’s actually over 900 arrested and charged:

          “Since supporters of then-President Donald Trump swarmed the US Capitol on January 6, 2021 — forcing Congress to go into lockdown and damaging the halls of government — at least 910 people have been arrested and charged with crimes.

          The FBI is seeking the public’s help to identify people who took part in one of the most documented crimes in US history.“

          A searchable database is available here:

          https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1?amp

          Really, you should avail yourself of a more accurate news source then what you’re currently using, reciting their propaganda makes you seem rather silly.

        • MajorStupidity.

          If you were not the complete, total, lying partisan @$$clown that you are, and IF you believed in concepts like “innocent until proven guilty”, you would recognize that “arrested and charged” equates to “guilt” as you equate to an intelligent person.

          We all recognize both the totally political nature of the Feeble, Boring, and Ignorant’s jihad against “all things Trump”, and the fact that (other than the pending “Proud Boys” trial, which does include this allegation) not ONE single 1/6 defendant has been charged with “insurrection”.

          You’ve got a few people convicted of such HEINOUS crimes as “parading”, “illegal entry”, and similar crimes against humanity. Most of the “convicted” pled guilty . . . mostly to avoid further systemic and ACTUAL torture.

          You really suck at life, doncha, MajorStupidity? If it wasn’t for lies, you’d have nothing to say.

          Your spiral into complete TDS dementia accelerates by the day. At this point, literally your ONLY argument, on ANY topic, is “But TRUUMMMPPP!!!!”

          As invited above, go eat a bag of dicks, you lying propagandist loser.

    • After years of lies and concocted schemes to overthrow a legitimate duly elected POTUS and after the last 2 years of sleazy dirty diaper democRats and Jim Crow Gun Control joe insanity the last thing anyone has grounds to do is criticize POTUS DJT for a damned thing. To attempt in anyway to do so is futile and a colossal sign of stupidity and outs people who do not deserve to be given the time of day.

    • Hahahaha, the wife went out to lunch with around a dozen co-workers yesterday. One person in the group stated she thought Liz Chaney would be a good president. 🤪

      • Liz Cheney proved the Peter Principle when she advanced past PTA Chair. Both of Dick’s daughter are insane.

        • Really.👍
          If I was there I would’ve asked if she thought Scrooge McDuck is paying his ‘fair share’ in taxes. 🤔

      • At this point, James, I don’t think Skanky Liz could get elected as freakin’ dog catcher, anywhere, even IF she switched parties. The right hates her because she’s a lying opportunist of a backstabbing scumbag, and the Left hates her because she “voted with Trump 93% of the time”. She’s screwed no matter which way she tries to jump. Her best hope is an “analyst” gig on CNN/MSNBC or a slot on VOX or Slate or The Dispatch or HotAir.

        Literally NOBODY likes that unpleasant, unaccomplished harridan.

  3. “We were told we may be violating some of their policies regarding ATF’s new frame and receiver rule,”

    1. A credit card company has no legal means or law to back them up on them saying that.

    2. A credit card company can not legally decline a payment if it does not exceed the card capability unless there is a law prohibiting it. There is no such law prohibiting the sale of the “80% receivers and other homemade firearm parts” if they are in compliance with law and what Grid Defense is selling is in compliance with law and the ‘unlawful’ ATF rules as written currently. (Unlawful ATF rules because congress never gave the ATF authority to make such a rule – and that’s going to court too – what the ATF is doing now is based upon presidential executive order which is not law nor does it have the force of law)

  4. You may be overlooking that MasterCard apparently has been in contact with the ATF, or that corporate counsel advised that the confusion over definitions presents a disaterous potential civil and criminal liability.

    “1. A credit card company has no legal means or law to back them up on them saying that.”
    – – Protecting themselves from possible legal liability (even criminal liability) is a valid reason for not doing business with a customer.

    “2. A credit card company can not legally decline a payment if it does not exceed the card capability unless there is a law prohibiting it. ”
    – – You may mean cannot deny a charge against their card. Either way, any business has the legal “right” to avoid triggering liability for accepting the purchase.

    • There is no legal liability if there is no law against it. This is a ‘preemptive’ thing based on ‘perception that it could be possible’

      • “There is no legal liability if there is no law against it. This is a ‘preemptive’ thing based on ‘perception that it could be possible’”

        Yes. Exactly what lawyers do; make sure nothing happens.

  5. Never mind the Second Amendment. If instructions are not included that violates the First Amendment. The whole entire thing discriminates against the DIY population. At the current rate of stupidity perhaps purchasing a nail gun, drill, hammer, skil saw, lumber, etc. will be next? Never mind the instructions needed to assemble and use products safely.

  6. Reaching new levels of Kafka.
    The emperor just decides when something is illegal now with no consistency in definition or application.

    We’re about 5 years deep into a dirty war and getting deeper everyday.

  7. Maybe MasterCard can help sue the pants off of the ATF, then.

    Since they won’t, maybe someone with standing needs to sue the pants off of MasterCard, and we can all contribute to their legal fund.

    • If I were MasterCard I’d simply refuse to change the MCC. They can do that you know. A credit card company can categorize any company under what ever the company tells them is their primary business. If that primary business is ‘household goods’ then its ‘household goods’ even if they happen to also sale firearms along with household goods and there is an argument to be made that a fire arms are also household goods.

      There is no legal requirement that a merchant has to claim they sell firearms as their primary business to get an MCC, for example, sporting goods stores don’t and they just call it sporting goods even though firearms are included under the sporting goods MCC. There was already an MCC for this purpose, its 5941 which is ‘Sporting Goods Stores’. This MCC includes but is not limited to:

      Backpacking Equipment
      Bait, Tackle Stores
      Billiard Tables – Sales
      Camping Equipment
      Cutlery – Sporting Knives
      Exercise Equipment
      Fishing – Equipment, Bait,
      Tackle
      Golf Equipment
      Gun Shops <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< firearms/ammunition and related sales
      Hiking Equipment
      Hunting Equipment,
      Supplies
      In-Line Skates Shops
      Pool Tables – Sales
      Rollerblade Shops
      Scuba, Skin Diving
      Equipment
      Skateboard Shops
      Ski Shops
      Skin Diving, Scuba
      Equipment
      Surfboards, Accessories
      Trekking Equipment
      Windsurf Boards,
      Accessories

      The creation of this new MCC is purely for forcing the credit card companies to act as government agents by proxy to get around the prohibition of creating gun registries

  8. The credit card companies can and will work with the federal government to stop the purchase of items the federal government seems unfit for sale.
    They did it in 2007
    Constitution be damned.

  9. @Geoff “I’m getting too old for this shit”
    “You haven’t seen a freak-out from the Left like you will if she runs…That’s our strongest potential candidate, and would make a *solid* VP pick if DeSantis gets the ‘nod’…”

    Thinking Nikki Haley’s star burned out awhile back, like before she was banished to an ambassadorship. Those are for party donors, and diminishing politicians; too long out of sight.

    As for De Santis, Florida isn’t a safely Republicrat state. De Santis is the anchor that keeps it from slipping full blue. It is this cannibalizing of state governors and state house members. Replacements are not a sure thing, and not a guarantee of future results.

    As for VP, the Palin experience could repeat: Palin had star power greater than McCain, which created conflict that could not be overcome.

    The Repub bench is not encouraging for 2024. It may indeed become necessary to sacrifice Florida in order for Repubs to win a presidency. Such is even more likely after 2028, if Trump wins in 2024.

  11. ATF fumbling, mumbling and stombling could be the result of taking speech lessons from FJB. Trunalimunumaprzure forever!

  12. I think that as an amusing aside we should have our lib friends take a piece of fence tube and glue a template to it and inform them they just made a firearm.

  13. Someone once told me never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence/idiocy.

    That’s it. The ATF is just incompetent. Right???

  14. The ATF’s goal is to make it as difficult as possible for the average person (who is not very mechanically inclined) to be unable to succeed in making a home made gun that will eventually end up being sold to criminals and nut cases. The ATF’s intention is honorable so let us hope they succeed admirably. Remember no Constitutional Right is unlimited, especially when it aids criminals and nut cases in getting weapons and using weapons of mass destruction to commit horrific mass murders.

    The Far Rights demented and childish idea that having an unregistered gun is going to let them own any future restricted or banned weapons is as laughable as it is asinine. Neanderthal Man was a genius compared to the Far Right’s mentality.

    • dacian the demented dips***,

      You have a real problem with projection, doncha champ?? Look, dacian the dumbass, just because YOU are a thumb-fingered idiot who is more likely to stab himself with a screwdriver than repair a wall socket doesn’t mean that is true of the rest of us. I’ve done several “home built” rifles, and all have functioned quite well.

      As far as what the ATF allegedly is attempting to do (and from whence cometh this “knowledge” of the intentions of the ATF, dacian the denented? Did Chimpman tell you this before he flamed out??), all I can say is (i) it is NOT within their legal authority to make ANY such determination, and more importantly, it’s NONE OF THEIR F***ING BUSINESS.

      Go back to your serial onanism. You might not be very good at that, but you couldn’t POSSIBLY be as inept at self-abuse as you are at history, logic, rhetoric, argument, policy, politics, economics . . . come to think of it, what ARE you allegedly “good” at, dacian?? ANYTHING???? Nah, didn’t think so.

    • Not everybody lives in the city…

      I live in the country and every year at family reunion we have a shooting contest, and at the end is a free for all…So it sounds like a war zone… Never once visited by Sheriff..

      Only visit was a few years ago we had a visit by the new neighbor, he shoots on his own property and he came to see what was going on..Since then we let him know when its going down…

      My county is now a second Amendment sanctuary county…

    • So why are not leading from the front against “NUCLEAR WEAPONS”, not hiding in your basement!!!!

      It is perfectly legal to own tanks and APC’s…

      It is perfectly legal to own cannons!!!!

    • Technically felons can purchase black powder weapons, and there is “ZERO” background checks on these types of firearms..

      They can be shipped directly to your front door!!!!

      • JRM,

        If you are going to start cataloging all the myriad inconsistencies, stupidities, and blithering idiocy of current “gun” laws and regulations??

        We’re gonna need a bigger blog.

  15. Along with clarifying ATF specifics of rulings, I would be interested in understanding damages caused prior to changing. In no way am I pointing figures. Clarify is good for all.

  16. @LampOfDiogenes
    “An amazingly concise and accurate summary of the legal mind. I hoist my glass to you, sir!”

    Blind squirrel moment, I assure you.

  17. Once again it is either LEGAL or it is iLLEGAL.

    Either way it can be challenged in court.
    Slowly the ‘winds of change are gaining strength and the fact that the Pro-Gun lobby refudes to co-operate with even the mildest changes to gun control legislation on the flimsiest of excuses is responsible for quickening the pace of change.It will I think result in gun controls much stricter that the other wise would have been.
    Mark my words politicians of all persuasions will soon, with an eye on the ballot box be lining up to declare their support for stricter gun controls > Those fools who say they will NOT give up their guns on pain of death may wel have to prove some time soon. No doubtbhat tghefe will be afew but watch the others run for cover. It’s not too late toco-operate and to advertise the fact that you are doing so. At the same time tgnose ontghnese columns who are getting up to 30% o commision of the useless and unnessessary ‘stuff’ they promote might come clean about THEIR intentions and their rewards as well.

    • Prince Albert the Poncey, Fake-Brit, Fake-Military Wanking Poofter,

      As I’ve told you before, you lack even the most RUDIMENTARY understanding of the US Constitution, justice system, or firearms. You are a bleating @$$clown.

      Go mourn your Queen, or bow down to your idiot “King”, NO ONE on here gives a flying fornication at a rolling deep-fried breakfast pastry WHAT your opinion is. You are a troll of VERY low quality.

  18. @LampOfDiogenes
    “…there IS no Constitutional corrective procedure for such an instance.”

    One reason “stolen”, or not “stolen” is if little interest to me is that Trump could have amassed 100mil votes, and still end up losing. Why do all the people infuriated about popular ballot fraud not understand that the Electoral College (whose votes are not determined by popular vote counts on election night) determines win/lose. Now it is true that there is a tenuous connection between popular and electoral voting, but the EC vote is what counts (as Trump figured out in 2016, defeating Hillary).

    The looming danger is the national compact being circulated, where states agree that electoral votes will be assigned to whichever candidate wins the popular vote. When the appropriate number of states sign onto that compact, the EC will always reflect the popular vote. And the risk of failing to repeal the EC through amending the Constitution is avoided.

    • Sam,

      Ooh!! You found one of my “trigger” topics!

      When I first heard about it, I was actually worried about the (unconstitutional) National Voting Compact. As a concept, I despise it; it’s an idea ONLY a Leftist/fascist idiot could love (why am I betting dacian the demented and MajorStupidity BOTH support it??), Watching its actual progress, my tentative conclusion is that the states likely to actually sign on to the Compact are . . . states that were going to vote “blue”, anyway.

      While the idea sucks greasy puppydog nuts, my (tentative) conclusion is that the National Voting Compact movement is “a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

      • “…my (tentative) conclusion is that the National Voting Compact movement is “a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” ”

        You could be right. However…

        I would never put money on the Dims to fail to circumvent the Constitution. As of June 2022, it has been adopted by fifteen states and the District of Columbia. These states have 195 electoral votes, which is 36% of the Electoral College and 72% of the 270 votes needed to give the compact legal force. And there is no time limit on getting it passed. But, at the moment, the popular vote remains a nothing burger in electing a president.

        • Sam,

          As usual, you are not wrong. IF the Dims flip a significant number of states “blue”, those new “blue” states may opt into the Compact. The issue of its constitutionality remains open – IF a formerly-red-now-blue state (i) opted in to the Compact, (ii) participated in a Presidential election after the opt-in, and (iii) had a popular vote for (just as an example) Ron DeSantis, and then awarded their electoral votes to Senile Joe because of the Compact, I would expect an immediate challenge from the Republican Party (including that state’s chapter), the RNC, and quite probably, a number of Republican voters from that state.

          The outcome of that case would, of course, depend entirely on the make-up of SCOTUS when the case was decided. The only rational outcome is that it was a “back door” way to amend the Constitution without following the specified procedures. No rational lawyer thinks that would survive an objective analysis by even a quasi-objective court. There is a specific procedure for amending the Constitution; they haven’t followed it (or even made a serious attempt to do so).

          But the states that HAVE adopted the Compact are almost exclusively already blue states, or at least bluish-purple. The remaining states aren’t likely to sign on any time soon. If we get to the point where we have enough states signing the Compact to “activate” it? We’re already f***ed. At that point, it’s either revolution, or kiss your rights goodbye.

  19. What’s the end goal here? It’s the same as the fossil fuels industry. The dems aren’t getting much money from them anyway, but their opponents are. It’s killing multiple birds with one stone. But they can’t do that, you say. We needs guns for the military! Yeah, we also need fuel. After they completely destroy the industry, they will “bail them out.” That’s when they nationalize it. That’s the end goal for both oil and firearms.

    You don’t think they can do that? Look how fast they moved with fossil fuels. Is the firearms industry more powerful than the oil industry? Their only saving grace is the 2A. They’ll keep working around that until they no longer have to.

  20. @LampOfDiogenes
    “The issue of its constitutionality remains open…”

    The constitution is pretty clear on selection of Electors:
    Article II, Section 1, Clause 2:
    Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

    The SC ruled in the past, that the feds have standing to sue to protect the integrity of the process for choosing Electors, but only as regards to fraud (in choosing electors, not popular vote outcome) and corruption. The NVC is an open process, and states is purpose and process. It cannot rationally be declared corruption or fraud. The means by which state legislatures pass legislation to join the compact might be vulnerable to legal challenge.

    An entertaining proposition is what happens to the execution of the compact if a state legislature votes to overturn legislation that allowed joining the compact.

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