Red flag laws have been a hot topic around here as of late and they’ve been served with an occasional side of domestic violence. On December 2nd we ran an op-ed on a mental health care worker’s opinions on red flag laws; on December 11th we posted a news story – Scared Wife Fatally Shoots Husband After Years of Unreported Abuse – with mixed results in the comments section.
Today we’re taking a look at it from a different angle. I’m giving you guys the first look at a full-length podcast done by Polite Society Podcast on the realities of domestic violence and red flags laws. The podcast was scheduled before the aforementioned DV piece ran on TTAG.
It’s just over one hour-long and this is the unedited version, put together by host Paul Lathrop specifically for you. (The first two segments will air tonight on the Polite Society Podcast and the other two will run next week on the same show.)
Why is this unique? Because it’s my story, one I have never shared publicly. Only a handful of highlights are mentioned in the podcast because time limits are real, but it’s enough to give you a look into how domestic violence happens – and how it can happen to anyone. Your sister, your friend, your daughter.
Many, if not most abusers are master manipulators and it becomes a case of the frog in the pot of soon-to-be-boiling-water. Abuse is a slow burn you’re caught in before you realize what is happening. Abuse is a slow-working poison you’re dosed with in the early days under the guise of caring and support.
Some women get out faster than others; some women get out and stay out while others repeat the cycle with the same man, often to the point of death. It can be infuriating and enormously frustrating when you’re on the outside looking in. I, myself, become incredibly frustrated with women who don’t leave quickly or who return knowing the fisted cards they’ll be dealt. So I stop, take a deep breath, and force myself to think – and to remember.
Regarding red flag laws I won’t keep you in suspense waiting to listen to this podcast to find out what I think of them. They’re trash. They have no place in a democratic society. There is no due process, they violate the Second Amendment, and they are all too easily wielded against innocents and even used as tools by abusers to disarm their prey.
I don’t care if it hasn’t happened in your state yet or is called one thing in your state and another in whatever state, this is your problem. If you are a law-abiding gun owner, red flags laws are your problem. Sitting back and waiting to see what happens is not an option.
To those who have commented on domestic violence posts claiming the abused person potentially planned to shoot their abuser, shame on you. Scenarios like that rarely play out outside of Hollywood. Do people lie? Of course, but as with the case of the battered woman who recently shot her husband in self-defense there is almost always significant evidence of abuse.
Should you take seemingly unsubstantiated claims with a grain of salt? Yes. But when you are dismissive and belittling you give credence to the shame and embarrassment of women who are afraid to speak up because, after all, who would believe us? Always force yourself to stop, listen, and consider that your perception of reality may be wholly inaccurate.
To those who do not understand how someone can feel trapped, cut off from all help, and be drowning in an ocean of shame, well, I hope this podcast helps explain it.
After more than a decade, my story is now out there. It is not who I am but it did affect me in intimate ways I would not wish on anyone. I’ll answer polite questions in the comments section. It is my heartfelt desire that doing this podcast helps someone – male or female – who is currently trapped in an abusive situation. If you’re reading this, reach out for help. It’s out there. And if you are out of it and are now a new legal firearms owner needing help with firearms training to protect yourself and your children there’s help for that as well. Please feel free to reach out via email (you can find mine on the About Us page).
Please take this in the spirit in which it was given: seriously and with the intent to help others.
To listen to the podcast in its one-hour entirety, click the audio file below. Segments one and two are myself and Belle McCormack, a good friend and firearms instructor at Firearms Academy of Seattle, discussing our own experiences and the challenges of leaving. The third segment includes Karen from Rachael’s Rest talking about how to leave. Fourth segment I discuss red flag laws and we wrap up the hour:
Red flag laws are just the beginning unfortunately. Technology will allow the authorities to identify targets and tailor the GVRO to suit.
these laws are a big step towards their end-game…and we have the POTUS to thank for it!
Trump didn’t create those laws, he’s just being an idiot when he supports them.
That said, has anyone actually tried to sue over these laws yet? They’re obviously violation of proper due process. The 2A is enumerated right and can’t just be rescinded with a court order. If any other enumerated right was violated in this manor the ACLU would be screeching like a banshee about it. But because it’s the 2A I suppose the public are just supposed to go along with it.
Domestic violence cuts both ways. Perpetrators are approximately 57% male and 43% female. There are over 2,000 domestic violence shelters for (only) women, and for men? One. Men often suffer in silence.
What is your source?
Reliable and accepted data says 85% of DV/IPV victims are women and 15% are men. In terms of murders, the number of men who are killed in domestic violence situations (whether they are perpetrators or victims) is so small that no reliable data exists.
Let’s use reliable info when debating so we don’t look like crazy loonies.
I don’t have the info on hand but the last data I saw on the subject had the vast majority of male victims being victimized by other men. But who knows what data is reliable these days.
So you just made your numbers up, then?
Cool.
How does the world look through progressive lenses?
No, your mother told me those numbers last night.
Call me ignorant, but, any man being physically abused by a woman is simply a wuss. The average man is by far much stronger then the vast, vast majority of women. It’s not sexist or wrong to say that. It’s biology. Yes, there are a handful women who could whip plenty of men, but they’re either in MMA or body builders. They represent like .01% of women. When women abuse men it’s psychological abuse.
@New
Often true but not always.
Women who abuse men – from what I have seen from helping men get out of these situations – tend to choose men who are traditional “good guys.” In other words, men who are conditioned to never lift a finger against a woman no matter what she does. Yes, the men are generally much bigger than the women. But they are also men who have such an aversion to possibly hurting a woman that it often extends to not defending themselves against physical attack.
I have worked with men who have been stabbed, hit with lamps and golf clubs, had guns pulled on them. Broken fingers, hands from being hit with a blunt object and protecting their head. I had a fellow who was missing half of a limb because the woman ran over him in his own car. Women using cars to try to hurt or kill men is not uncommon. I’ve had men whose exes tried to ruin their careers with false reports, stalking, sabotaging new relationships, sharing their private and personal information.
Most abuse is psychological before it’s physical. The common theme is making the victim feel like they are to blame for what’s happening because they are an inadequate partner. Men often don’t report abuse because people don’t believe someone smaller than they are can actually hurt them. But they can. And how.
Yup. It shore is quiet around here anymore, no more busted windows, screamed at, clobbered cussed and kicked. It was worth the car and three nights in jail. BTW she set me up, started a big fight, bit herself, tore her clothes, give herself a couple slaps, all the while screaming at me to stop while on 911. … That DV No Gunz For Life is a B.S. gun grab
I once met a nice girl about a million years ago and we had exactly one date.. wherein she told me she chased her ex husband with a car. I asked if he was dumb enough to run in a straight line like they do in the movies. She started laughing and said “yeah… what a dumbass!”
@RGP
Oh yeah. Those kinds of dates. Those are fun aren’t they.
I guess my best one was the one where the guy turned out to be a felon. When I politely declined a second date, he threatened to buy a gun. I still remember the following text exchange.
Me: I wouldn’t do that, if I were you.
He: You $%#%&, where do you get off saying that?
Me: Aren’t you on probation, dear?
He: $%$^$^#&#&^$^$
Me: I’m just saying.
He stopped texting me after that.
Of course, the real reason I was so calm about it was that I was sure he was a horrible shot, given how much time he had recently spent in the clinker…
…Nothing like Social Engineering Projects operated by SJW/LibTARD-Globalists….The whole world had gone insane…My grandfather and my other relatives who fought in 2 major world wars are rolling around in THEIR graves for sure!
DVROs and GVROs are procedurally similar but not the same ball of wax.The latter are what are generally referred to as “red flag” laws, not the former. Most if not all states have extensive experience with DVROs, few have any significant experience with the latter, which is why they are potentially subject to abuse, as a nonthreatening uncle in Florida learned when his nephew bragged that he could get into uncle’s safe in order to carry out a school shooting. The massive difference between them is that a DVRO will issue upon an allegation of the commission of a crime (domestic violence), while the latter may issue on the allegation that there MAY BE a crime, or a suicide attempt (which is a crime in some states, not in others). One punishes actual crimes (of which there is usually some evidence, such a prior police reports, bruises ,, cuts, etc.), the other punishes thought crimes.
Procedurally there is little difference between them; both issue upon a sworn affidavit or affidavits detailing the elements of the particular statute. Both issue after a judge reviews the affidavit for its legal sufficiency. Both result in the issuance of a temporary restraining order that has a specified lifespan of anywhere from 10 days to three weeks, during which time the subject of the order must be personally served with the order and an evidentiary hearing scheduled. Both result in the seizure of firearms by the police, and the order itself specifies that the person subject of it is legally bound to turn them in or(or in some places, to a FFL). The subject can request a continuance, the person seeking the issuance cannot. In both, the person or agency seeking the order has the burden of proof at the formal hearing, usually by at least clear and convincing evidence, of the facts alleged in the application and affidavit. The subject has no burden or proof, and is entitled to be represented by counsel, to introduce evidence, and to cross-examine witnesses.
In the case of DVROs, the foregoing procedure has been held to accord due process of law, and given the similarities, I suspect that the GVROs, when a challenge is raised, will also be held to comply with due process requirements. To suggest that taking a person’s firearms prior to the formal hearing is a violation of due process is a nonstarter. For example, a person accused of a crime (such as DV, burglary, robbery, rape, murder) can be deprived of both liberty and property, including firearms, money, vehicles, bank accounts, etc., pending a hearing on the criminal complaint.
To add to the equation, many if not all states already have a procedure for the involuntary detention of a person who is deemed, on probable cause only, to be a threat of harm to him/herself or others. (In California it is called a “5150”, and it can be issued by a police officer or a mental health worker. It only lasts 72 hours, but it can be converted into an involuntary admission to a mental health facility after a judicial hearing. Some states have much longer authorized holds prior to a formal commitment proceeding.) States and officers have a lot of experience with mental health holds, and the fact is that a person who is acting out in a way that is a danger to himself or others is far more likely to be the subject of such a hold than a GVRO. A GVRO is a last gasp or back up in the event the police refuse to act. And yes, Virginia, they are constitutional and comply with due process requisites.
So from my view, the real danger of GVROs is the potential for abuse by family or the police, and expanding their availability to coworkres, employers, or teachers, is entirely misguided. But spouses/significant others are far more likely to use a DVRO than a GVRO if there is actual or threatened violence against the person seeking the order or others, and 5150s for mental illness/ serious suicidal depression. From what I have read, the GVRO statute in California, which has been on the books for a couple of years now and was, if I recall correctly, the second law of its kind in the country, has so far seen very limited use. They are just more “feel good” legislation that accomplishes nothing existing laws do not already cover.
Reads as though you may means the recent case in VT, rather than FL, where an entirely innocent relative had their guns taken away illegally.
http://www.addisonindependent.com/201812police-school-officials-avert-middlebury-middle-school-shooting
Any man, and i mean any man. who physically abuses a woman is a low life. They should forfeit any right to the 2A. Long before it comes to such a situation, should get out. If they don’t, tough shit. You belong in prison.
So then, “Shall not be infringed” is not an absolute after all?
I agree with the sentiment, but no. Even a scumbag gets his 2nd amendment rights…..but so does his/her spouse 🙂
Scum has no rights.
There are people who argue that terrorists like Awlaki have the right to due process while they continued to kill people in Yemen because he once lived in the U.S.
You lose your rights to things when you use those things to endanger others. I would add that anyone with DV, spousal abuse, pet abuse, or similar issues is already banned by Lautenberg and it has stood Court scrutiny
The simplest answer is to leave the dirtbags in prison, where they belong, for extended periods of time. Plus the state gets more free labor.
But what if they are not guilty? And if they are still amisdemeanor charge , no guns, never ever? Either make Battery a felony or make Domestic Violence a felony, at least one would have the option of getting it expunged. The Luatenberg act is bull sht
Abuse exists as well as unscrupulous partners and lawyers. Too much scope for abuse.
Some quick examples in Australia (I have personally interviewed / know these people) in two murders. Both by females, one who shot sleeping husband and one who used an axe 25 times on sleeping boyfriend. Both were acquitted while claiming self defence. I haven’t come across a case of male who has claimed similar self defence.
One local lawyer in small town filed a domestic violence, child abuse and sex tourist complaint in every (over 200) divorce case he did. The combination of state and federal laws meant father was out of house with bank account and passport frozen. Usually lost job and ex wife could take everything. Complaint of improper conduct were dismissed by Bar Association.
As I mentioned above there are plenty of genuine abuse cases but without fair hearings red laws are dangerous.
RCC: do you have a link for that story about the small town divorce lawyer?
“To those who have commented on domestic violence posts claiming the abused person potentially planned to shoot their abuser, shame on you. “
Haha yeah because women are not capable of premeditated crimes, right?
I know two guys here in Seattle that both their exgirlfriends called the Sheriff and made false reports on them about physical abuse and death threats while holding a gun. It cost them both a lot of money and time to clear that up.
Shit flows both ways, a woman’s word shouldn’t be taken as fact just because she’s a woman.
I never said it should be taken as fact. False reports are absolutely made.
But society at large is not amenable to dealing with domestic violence properly. As I said, take it with a grain of salt but take the time to listen. Belittling someone’s experience speaks to your own thought processes, not theirs.
Frankly, if the guy was a legitimate wife beater, I’m not real shook if it was planned. Odds are that attempting to leave would result in danger, violence, or death.
DrunkEODguy (your handle made me snicker)
You are absolutely correct about the likely results of leaving. It’s dangerous to leave. People seem to forget that.
Physical abuse by the female towards the male happens – the male usually does not report it and suffers in silence. I have seen some of these hormonal women go off on their partner and hurt him. I guess that crazy equals great sex, because the men stick around.
Yes, I have seen males smack females with fists and they usually got hurt much worse by me. But as I beat down the guy, the girl friend was yelling for me not to hurt him – that was years ago…I can’t abide people like that and I will not hang with trash – now that I really know the difference.
Sadly, these people gravitate towards the same type of person next time – I will be glad to stand guard while the woman gets her things so she can leave, but they almost always go back to the same situation – you can’t fix stupid.
Happened to me, guy kicking his girlfriend, I went to work on him, she jumps on my back and starts digging at my eyes
Kat,
Thanks for putting yourself out there like this. It takes a lot to tell your story. Especially to a large audience that is predominantly male like TTAG. Especially in an interview format.
I’ve helped so many people escape these kinds of relationships. I have thought a lot about how as a society we can teach our young people what they need to know so that they will never end up in that situation. People heal from abuse, like you did, like my clients do. But it’s hard and it takes a long, long time for some folks, depending on how long they were in the tunnel and how deep that rabbit hole got.
If there were five books I would have every parent read in order to help their child avoid the worst kinds of people, it would be these five.
The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker
The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout
In Sheep’s Clothing (Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People), by George Simon. Dr. Simon also has a number of articles online about character disorder on his website, which is here:
https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/
Regarding abuse specifically, the most definitive book is still Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. Although this book is written by a man who based his writing on his work with male domestic abusers in a treatment program, I have found from working with survivors that if you just change “he” to “she,” there really isn’t that much difference. Male clients of mine have also found this book helpful to understand their abusive fathers.
The last important book is The Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes. Betrayal bonding is basically the thing that keeps people from leaving, and causes them to return again and again. It’s basically the same thing as Stockholm Syndrome. The book contains a number of exercises that helps the survivor understand the nature of the traumatic bond that holds them to someone they know is bad for them.
So that is the cognitive part. Treatment wise, my opinion is that people who have escaped need trauma specific treatment, as it’s very common for survivors to have some form of traumatic stress syndrome or even full blown PTSD. I practice EMDR treatment, and have found that it greatly speeds up the process of recovery and moving on for survivors. It’s not the only thing out there but it’s one of the most, or perhaps the most, clinically researched and generates good results for the vast majority of people in the shortest period of time. Talk therapy can actually make a person feel more upset by bringing up the traumatic events without processing them to desensitize the ugly memories.
Good, comprehensive psychiatric treatment may be needed if a survivor is so deeply depressed that they cannot care for themselves or their children. That is generally short term, lasting no more than 6 to 12 months, just til they can get on their feet and get to the next place in their lives.
If survivors are having struggles with family members or friends who don’t understand, I will ask if those people will come in for a session with the survivor so I can explain to them what’s going on and how best to support the survivor in their journey of recovery and redefining their lives. That usually goes pretty well. It’s hard for someone in the middle of it to put the pieces together for family members or friends, so having someone else explain it can really help.
Your daughter is super cute and you’re a brave lady.
Used to be that people were part of a community
When folks found out that a husband was abusing a wife, they beat the shit out of him.
Then they told him if he did it again they would really hurt him.
Only know of a couple of wife abusing husband cases, they were much more calculated than the wife beaters.