I’ve spent some time in Austin since RF moved down there and have come to love the place. Sure, the majority of its residents’ preening leftist moral narcissism can be exhausting, but by and large, the capitol makes up for it with an undercurrent of libertarianism combined with great music and a fantastic food scene. So all of that said, no one who’s had much experience with the town will really be surprised by the fact that some local MDAers did their best to keep Austin weird (not to mention a little nauseating) Saturday, with a topless protest of a Come And Take It march. And from the accounts, they were every bit as coherent and high minded as you’d expect from a brace of bare-breasted Shannon shills (possibly NSFW photos after the jump) . . .
As Gun Rights Across America’s Eric Reed at buzzpo.com reports,
The women continued to remain topless in front of innocent children that were with today’s CATI group, shout obscenities and racial slurs, while “BAREing” signs that contained vulger sexual messages. See the pictures below, which I obviously had to censor.
At one point in an effort to create an uprising, Jefferson stated “they followed us into a small coffee shop and called us the Aryan Brotherhood. They continually used terms like white pride and white power. Their allegations are obvious nonsense as we not only have many African American members in our group, but also on our walk today.”
Of course, no one is more supportive of topless activity than are we here at TTAG central command. Unfortunately, though, some women lack the self awareness to know when it’s a good idea and when it just isn’t. We’re guessing the CATI members would have traded their guns (and maybe a limb or two) for a supply of bullet bras Saturday.
What these exhibitionist simpletons obviously haven’t learned is that, like wearing Spandex, baring your boobs should be a privilege, not a right. That’s something Shannon may want to communicate in her next membership email. Please. Do it for the children.
Lucky I had a barf bag nearby when I saw this.
I find it interesting that the statists say the same thing about us and our “scary” black rifles.
Am I the only one who finds the irony in all this?
I mean, I don’t agree with their stance but I am pro freedom. That not only includes open carry of firearms but also the freedom for women of questionable beauty to let it all hang out. Not only that, who the fuck died and made any of us the arbiters of good taste or whether someone is “hot enough” to go topless? I don’t like seeing fat old men mow the lawn in tiny shorts either but I have to see that all the time in my neighborhood.
See, the thing about freedom is it doesn’t mean, “Only the things I like or agree with are protected activities.” Freedom means freedom. Period. Just like freedom of speech applies to all the comments I see below further solidifying the Left’s characterization of gun owners as ignorant, hate mongering red necks. ::facepalm::
I think the article I am commenting on comes across exactly like the articles that the statists write: mean spirited, off topic, and spending more time demonizing the opposition than talking to facts.
Come on everyone – we are better than this.
And as an actual Austinite who identifies as “Libertarian” with a huge gun collection… I have a message for Dan:
——————————————————————
If you’re going to keep writing derp like this, please kindly just stop writing altogether. Your veiled mysogyny in a badly written hit piece like this is doing as much hurt to the firearms community as the bros who take pics with their rifles at the ready in Chipotle.
——————————————————————
+many
I think I love you. Thank you. You win the internet at least for the rest of this week.
No problem.
I just call them like I see them. I also try to remain as impartial and logical as possible.
Railing at the statists for calling our open carry people nasty names and basing arguments purely on how they look but then doing the same thing ourselves is obvious hypocrisy. I mean, there have been entire articles on this site about how the statists love to characterize gun owners as insecure racists with tiny penises (which they definitely do – and often)… but then we get articles like this one saying, “Those chicks are ugly and have ugly boobies!” Really?
I understand this is a blog, but it is the most popular firearms blog on the web. There are a lot of people on each side of the debate who consider TTAG to be the voice of the firearms community. I believe we can do better than this.
I had no idea TTAG was that central to the firearms blogging community. In that case all my long verbose ire goes double.
I see no problem with women going topless. Men are allowed to be topless, so women should be allowed also. Nudity does not need to become moral issues. We were all born naked. If you are around topless people long enough you begin to not care.
http://gotopless.org/topless-laws
wait a min…i think you are trying to make a point
That needed to be included in the title…. I was unprepared and might need a new keyboard….. forget NSFW how about not safe for standard stomach
Geez…at least find someone who isn’t hideous to go topless! Where’s my eye bleach?
And there goes my freedom boner for the day.
Ha ha nice
Dumb Austin hippies, it never gets old
I should have know they weren’t going to be attractive boobs. Damn.
It is very rare for the people who show up at topless and/or nude protests to be anyone you want to see naked.
IMO, if the activists on the other side have to take their clothes off because nobody’s paying attention to their issue, it’s just another sign that we’re winning.
MAKE IT STOP I DONT WANT TO SEE ANY MORE TITS
That right there is a line of text rarely seen on the Internet.
Rarely? I believe that is the first time I’ve ever seen that statement spoken.
GRANDMA??? Oh snap.
Where’s the eye bleach.
To quote Ron White from his Blue Collar Comedy Tour “alright baby, you can roll those back up now”
Aaaaaahggggg!!! My eyes, they are burning!!!! Jesus, what the hell is wrong with this people, and gun owners are the crazy ones? BS
Yikes. The women of Walmart go topless with signs.
Boobs or guns? I refuse to make that choice.
This is America, and I will have both.
… Just not these particular boobs. They look like the Remington R51s of the boob world; they were great back in the day, but now they need more work before they see daylight.
Nice.
Comparing those to the R51 is a little insulting to Remington. I’d say they are closer to a homemade grease gun thats been in a river for the last 20 years.
I don’t think Remington deserves much after the R51 debacle and of the quality issues many current guns in their lineup have.
Ha. Nice one about the grease gun. But the R51 really does suck that bad. I handled 8 or 10 at the gun store I work at before they got recalled. Every one of them was a complete and total POS.
See I look at the R51 like the smoking hot drunk girl you brought home on your 21st birthday… well at least until you wake up the next morning and realize that 10 was really a 2.
F*CK WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Is it still considered topless when they have nipple-hair pasties?
They took my advice from Colorado…
Arghhh! You could have warned us. It might take YEARS to get that outa’ my memory…and I’m a big fan of boobs…
2A is not a bra size. 🙂
There goes their modesty.
That mean the guys have to do pantsless open carry?
If I saw them I’d shout “No one wants to see your gross ugly old tits! Put a shirt on, have some self respect!”
Personally I think it’s great! Not that I’m wanting to look at the “C” grade flesh here, but that they did something soooooo over the top stupid. If the “mad mothers” would keep doing that at every open carry protest that would be wonderful. Number one, it would bring even more attention to the open carry movement. (Who by comparison would look very conservative and normal.) Number two it would show the world just how crazy/stupid the anti-gun whiners really are.
“Never interrupt your enemy while he[she] is making a mistake.” ― Napolean Bonaparte
MDA Moms protesting in this fashion (pun intended) can only help our cause. Let’s hope they do it more often.
Bob, I think the actual quote is: When your enemy is digging his own grave do n ot interrupt him.
And why should we, she’s already got two shovels
EVERYONE CLOSE YOUR EYES AND REFRAIN FROM THE HORRIBLE SIGHT OF THESE MOMS!
oh, but my trying to post pictures of Shannon wearing a one piece bathing suit get my comments stricken
BTW – when do we get to see Shannon post a pic of the twins??
Mr.Diggler – The difference between Rape and Rapture…
…is Salesmanship. So give Shannon a jingle…OK?
I guess some don’t understand the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, not bear breasts!
All women have the right to “Bear Breasts”, only some should “Bare Breasts”.
Hey guys, what goin…MOTHER OF GOD
Isn’t that against the law there? It is in my Texas city.
Either way, it’s common for lefties at the Capitol to bring their own children along with obscene signs they’ve made, and sometimes they even make their little girls hold the signs. At an abortion protest, one sign held by an elementary school-age girl said “If I wanted the government in my body, I’d f-ck a senator”. I’m not sure why they think that’s helpful in persuading others to their cause. That’s child abuse.
The Texas Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to have a law forbidding women to be topless in public. It was part it the equal rights amendment movement and part of the reason most of the Supreme Court was replaced in the space of a few election cycles.
IIRC there is a nuance, namely that such behavior is allowed when it is part of political expression (say a protest) as opposed to having topless dancers at the park
The “nuance” is not that it must be a political statement, but that it can’t be with the intent to arouse sexual interest. So, for instance if you’re hustling, then you can’t do it. But if you’re sunbathing, you can. It’s up to a jury which is which, so I wouldn’t want to push the envelope if I were a woman.
Yup…it’s legal in Austin. Part of the old school hippie “keep Austin weird” before that became trendy. Whatever floats your boat.
I think a compromise can be had…keep your hands off their guns and they’ll keep their hands off your breasts.
The implication that “innocent children” will be harmed by the sight of boobs is exactly as preposterous as the notion that children will be harmed by the sight of a gun. I think we can do better than MDA.
While it’s hilarious how nasty these protester’s boobs are, I fully support normalizing the open carry of boobs, in hopes that some much younger, much hotter ladies will eventually feel comfortable joining in. As of now, I believe Austin is the only place in TX where you won’t be arrested for it though.
^^^ This right here!! This article is the epitomy of the pot calling the kettle black!
Yup. It’s kind of nauseating how some of our pro 2nd amendment brothers and sisters can have so little self awareness. :/
No. In Texas topless women are constitutionally protected across the entire state, so long as they are not topless for prurient interests.
Good to know, I’ll start spreading the word. 🙂
It’s one of the few nice things Ann Richards’ administration brought us. It was part of her drive for the Equal Rights Amendment.
(Sung to the tune of Turkey In The Straw)
Do your boobs hang low
Do they swivel to and fro
Can you tie em in a knot
Can you tie em in a bow
I never knew the name of that song!
Is there any actual evidence that these topless grannies were actually associated with MDAFGSA? Or are we just making that assumption based on I.Q.?
“What these exhibitionist simpletons obviously haven’t learned is that, like wearing Spandex, baring your boobs should be a privilege, not a right.”
Wow. And you want them to respect our Rights? Come on, you can do better than this. What else should be “a privilege, not a right”, and on what justification?
Can we atleast agree on the right to make obvious jokes that nobody could possibly confuse for an actual opinion?
This is laughably gross and proves once again how ineffective MDA is….and where is Shannon Watt’s bare chest in all this? These women must have husbands who chose castration over vasectomy and for apparently good reason.
First guns, now titties?
Why can’t MDA just leave the stuff I love alone???
These women are embarrassing. They say they are feminists but they set women back. Using your breasts instead of the strength of your argument is weakness. And again, embarrassing. I’m embarrassed for them and I’m embarrassed they are part of my gender.
You may share a gender but not a species, assuming your not of the bovine variety.
Looks like the Chipotle Ninja virus has become airborne, gone over and infected The Mom’s camp. Shannon’s got to be beside herself over these optics. You can’t fix stupid.
But then again, maybe the Koch brothers are hiring false-flag counter protesters? What a concept.
I think the 2A marchers had better-looking uppers…
Also, all you guys on here making nasty comments about these women’s breasts and the fact that they don’t give you boners, are disgusting, frankly. These women are an embarrassment, but you all are just being foul and dishonorable as well. Seriously, have some class, men. You don’t have to sink to their level. Nobody cares about your stupid boners.
I agree. Most of the comments have been childish, bordering on stupid. The whole idea of going topless may have been silly, but as an attention getting stunt it obviously worked. It also seems to have brought out the sexist, stupid side of a number of commentators on TTAG (although some are funny).
Thanks! It means a lot not to feel alone here.
I lurked for awhile before I commented. When I commented the first time, I was surprised by how I felt comfortable and at home (despite the occasional misogyny that pops up here.) But then I see the long list of comments here and it just feels hostile to me. I know a lot of men don’t “get that’ and feel like I’m somehow trying to infringe on their rights to say things. That’s not my intention. (I haven’t said anything about anybody’s “right” to say stupid demeaning bullshit. I’m merely appealing to class and integrity, here. Basic ethics and honor.)
There’s really no way to make someone who isn’t empathetic to women living surrounded by men who act like apes the second shit doesn’t go their way to explain it. What I do know is that often online when men saying demeaning BS about women is challenged, soon after that rape threats fly. (Not saying that will happen here, just pointing out the progression that often happens to serve to silence any woman who doesn’t like this behavior and finds it alienating.)
Even if it’s online, women feel threatened by that and men do it to make them shut up. It’s an intimidation tactic and it’s shameful. I hope it doesn’t go that far here because I would like to believe that most of you guys are pretty decent and just not thinking about how alienating some of these comments are, both to the women who lurk and comment here and to women in general. (The MDA women most likely aren’t lurking here so the only women who can be offended by it are the women on your side. Think it through, guys.) I mean this shit makes your daughters, wives, grandmothers, sisters, the women you care about feel like shit, too. They just rarely speak up because women have long known what happens when they speak up. Best case scenario they just get yelled at and demeaned personally.
Suck it up, buttercup. Men will be men and, no, that doesn’t mean anyone wants to rape anyone. Speaking purely for myself, I suggest you go clutch your pearls elsewhere if you can’t handle some slightly randy comments without getting the vapors.
Just because we all agree that guns are great and we’ve all a God-given right to them, doesn’t mean any given gun owner is someone who’d be a pleasure to sit down with and have a beer. Case in point: the hypocritical, hypercritical woman who cries about men riffing on some past-their-expiration-date mammary glands, but who herself has no problem dismissing those men and their “stupid boners.” Good grief.
No, I’m not going to “suck it up.” YOU suck it up. I’m going to call men out on this bullshit at the very least online. Women shouldn’t have to be made to feel this way and demeaned and be afraid to speak up.
If you think this is what “men are” then I’m deeply ashamed for you. Men are worthless if what “men are” is a mouthpiece of degrading women and treating them like a sack of shit.
And it IS stupid when you get distracted by your boners and the fuckability of any random woman in an issue as important as your 2A rights. Seriously, grow up.
No, I’m not going to “suck it up.” YOU suck it up. I’m going to call men out on this bullshit at the very least online. Women shouldn’t have to be made to feel this way and demeaned and be afraid to speak up.
If you think this is what “men are” then I’m deeply ashamed for you. Men are worthless if what “men are” is a mouthpiece of degrading women and treating them like a sack of shit. (Note that I didn’t say men are worthless only that if men think that this is what “men are” they are because seriously??? WTF is wrong with you?)
And it IS stupid when you get distracted by your boners and the hotness or lack of hotness of any random woman in an issue as important as your 2A rights. Seriously, grow up.
“The MDA women most likely aren’t lurking here…”
You can count on them reading EVERY word here.
…to use at _their_ convenience.
Sorry for the sort-of double post there. I went into moderation for the F word, so I rewrote my post to not include that word. It ended up passing moderation anyway, but I didn’t know where the boundaries were with language here because I’ve seen shit and stuff pass muster. I’ll try to avoid the harsher language (*F*) in the future.
@cowgirl: First off, you must be new if you don’t think the “f*ckability” of any given woman isn’t one of the first three things any given man considers when presented a woman he isn’t familiar with. Respectively, women consider whether any given man would be a good provider. Welcome to the difference in sexes and what our respective differences entail.
Secondly: Are a lot of the comments here boorish? Absolutely. Are they unnecessary? Most certainly. Should you have expected exactly what you got when you read the article prior to the comments? Derp… Jon and I have had our disagreements in the past, but he is absolutely right on this one. Bad behavior isn’t being excused, but boys ARE boys and let’s be frank with each other and agree that women’s conversations often aren’t better. You have a 90+% majority of men on this site which has topical discussions on the f*cking internet. Newflash, the internet is where everybody lets their dirtbag side hang out.
If you have a bone to pick, pick it with the author and the publisher. I personally found the tone of the article far more distasteful than the protester’s actions. That said, I had a pretty good idea of what i was getting into about three lines in.
Lastly: I was just in Austin recently for my bachelor party. I am sorely disappointed that it was an old hag that opted to loose the girls on society and not one of the (countless) remarkably good looking young ladies I ran into all up and down 6th St…
Matt,
Look, I’m married. I have a very visible wedding ring on my hand, so ANY man who treats me as a prospective F*ck will be roundly told to get out of my face. You guys are not Neanderthals or animals but you seem to insist that you are.
I think people are WAY too sex-obsessed in general. If you can’t look at me without thinking about whether or not you’d like to bang me, maybe you need a handler. Holy crap. How hard is it to not think every woman exists to please your boner or offend it?
I just want to be treated like a person and spoken to with respect as a person of equal intelligence and value. I don’t want my sexuality to have anything to do with anything. And I don’t run around dressing provocatively or using my sexuality for anything, but I steer very clear of any man who can’t simply treat me like a person.
And I don’t sit around considering whether or not a man would be a good provider. I can provide for myself, thanks. I don’t need a “provider”. I need (and thankfully have) a grown adult partner who isn’t living in the stone age thinking he has to “provide” for me.
Bad behavior IS being excused and you guys aren’t possessed. Be gross pigs in your own private spaces, like the locker room. Men have spent centuries keeping that shitty talk more private among themselves. This is not the locker room. This is a public space, and women come here too whether you like it or not.
Talk in public like a Neanderthal and someone will shame the shit out of you. That’s just life. I don’t care what percentage of people here are men. What you’re basically arguing for is “men are shitheads, deal with it.”
If men are really that terrible, why should any be surprised if I don’t like them, don’t trust them, and don’t want to be around them?
I actually seem to believe men are better than you do, because if I thought you all couldn’t help it I’d just pat you on the head and say “bless your heart”. But I actually think men CAN be better. They just choose not to because they enjoy being assholes. Well, I don’t enjoy it and you’ll hear my displeasure loudly.
Hey Cowgirlup. Sorry to hear you are feeling grief over comments. I personally agree with you that there are poor comments and having given up a long time ago on expecting every comment to be smart and considerate just skip over to the smart and considerate comments. I hope you will be able to comment in the future and add some good points to the discussion. I expect that you don’t agree with my viewpoint about calling out people, but I personally would rather try to focus on trying to add smart and real comments to the conversation that relate to the core topics of this blog. It isn’t that behaviors are excusable but I would rather pick what I talk about that react. There are a lot of intelligent things to contribute and when I can I try to communicate that and try to get a better message out. I know that isn’t what you were looking for but it is what I try to do, and usually the TTAG comment have a lot of smart and considerate and worthwhile of reading comments. Actually a lot more than a lot of other places where the comments are dismal. Certainly Misogyny is wrong but so is Misandry. I feel uncomfortable with the generalization of “Women” are like this or that, and with the generalizations that “Men” are like this or that. Especially when those characterizations are meant to be marginalizing. I especially don’t like when those characterizations are cast onto gun owners, Men and Women in an attempt to marginalize them and reduce them to some sort of sub human for the sake of making an ad hominem attack.
Hey CT Resident,
Yeah I get it’s a lost cause, but it pisses me off because I WANT women to feel welcome in gun spaces because frankly if we don’t get more women on our side, the 2A tide could end up turning against us. Right now there is a lot of pro-gun legislation and there are a lot of women coming over to guns, but some of them are going to turn right back around and leave again after seeing some of the shit a lot of these men seem to think is okay to say publicly about women. It’s alienating and holy crap, this is NOT the hill I want 2A to die on, and I can’t understand a man who would fight for the privilege to be an asshole with no restrictions on an online forum (or elsewhere in public) when it so harmfully colors the way women are going to feel about the whole gun culture in general. How hard is it really to NOT be a douche in just a few limited times and spaces?
You’d think I was calling for their penises in jars. Damn.
And I definitely don’t feel grief over everybody’s comments. People aren’t required to agree with me, just don’t be a jerk about it. Lots of people have debated/discussed with me and been perfectly normal/nice. We’ve agreed on some things and disagreed on some things but I appreciate the discussion. Others just decided to call me names or tell me to chill out or just behaved like your standard stereotypical dudebro only proving my points. Um yeah.
I don’t totally disagree with what you’re saying with regard to picking one’s battles. When I made my first comment on it, we’d had about 10-15 of these jerky comments and nobody had said anything against it and that irritated me. So I spoke up. I didn’t call anybody specifically out because it’s not necessarily just “one isolated comment” or any one individual person. It’s more death by a thousand papercuts. It was just the unchallenged volume of it. So I challenged it in general. Then some people debated me and some people decided I was hysterical and a real boner killer (whaaaa). And some people agreed and defended me.
I don’t know why it had to be such a big deal, but of course it did because bitch (that’s me!) can’t keep her mouth shut like a good little woman. Nope!
I agree with you re: misogyny and misandry. I try not to lump “all” of one gender into this or that, though when confronted with a LOT of crappy behavior from one group or the other, it can be easy to generalize. Often I just decide I frankly don’t like “people” with some exceptions. Mainly I just don’t like that people can’t manage to be decent to one another and stop trying to control each other.
Cowgirl, don’t be too quick to write it off as a lost cause. While there may be some element of truth to what some of they guys are saying about men’s … um … baser nature, you are just as right to call us out on it. It’s part of the balancing act between Mars and Venus that helps keep us civilized. So sure, men can be idiots at times, but at least we’re also smart enough to usually recognize the value of a good woman.
Just don’t do what some have done and pack up and go away. Been enjoying your posts on TTAG.
Hey Raul,
Thanks! I appreciate it. And if I didn’t believe men could do better, I wouldn’t waste my typing energy. 🙂 I do understand their frustration at groups like MDA and some types of feminism. I feel that same frustration. My anger is mostly at those in power on the left who are using women for their political goals and strategies. Though I guess I’m also equally irritated at the women who fall for the pandering. But there are still lines of honor one shouldn’t cross. (This goes for both genders.)
Thanks and I’m particularly glad you added that last. One if the things I had considered noting, but didn’t was that women are just as bad. Consider the vitriol spewed by women at some of the lady hunters and shooters in recent months.
One of the things I’ve found as a student of people is that is the tendency of dehumanizing our enemies – often subconsciously. It has much more to do with our fallen natures than any particular fender or racial bias.
Raul,
Women can be just as bad, definitely. PEOPLE are often assholes, but most of both genders are reasonable and can be reasoned with. There are a LOT of men I think are wonderful and a lot I think suck. And the same for women. It’s still a challenge sometimes to get out of that thought pattern where it’s one “group” that is bad and to just take and deal with people on an individual level.
I think if more of us (me included, sometimes) could deal with everyone as individuals and not whatever “group” they’re in, we’d be a lot better off.
I have noticed the women spewing hate at women hunters and shooters, and I really just don’t understand their mentality at all. Feminists “claim” they don’t want gender stereotyping and that there are no specific “boy things” and “girl things”. If that’s true, why do they think guns are so terrible and icky? If a man can bake a cake, can’t a woman shoot a gun? Sometimes it seems like they circle back around to sexism against themselves without even realizing their doing it. It makes me embarrassed for them.
With regards to the whole “both genders” should be honorable thing, I really think women are not socialized heavily in being honorable. I’m not saying they are taught to be dishonorable, but honor isn’t a huge “thing” for women. I think it should be. Just as I think greater empathy should be emphasized for men. I think if women were taught more honor and men were taught more empathy, we’d all meet in the middle.
Likewise, I don’t think “men should hold doors open for me”, but I would appreciate a PERSON holding a door open for me, and I hold doors open for people of both genders myself, because I think it’s rude to let doors slam on other people’s faces.
@cowgirlup:
Likewise, I don’t think “men should hold doors open for me”, but I would appreciate a PERSON holding a door open for me, and I hold doors open for people of both genders myself, because I think it’s rude to let doors slam on other people’s faces.
I was raised to hold door open for people, too – but I was also taught to open the door for women. The saddest thing to me is that feminism has taught women to be offended by such gestures, by completely misconstruing the intent. Chivalry is not a matter of condescending to women, but rather elevating women, by treating them with greater honor and respect. So, yes, if a woman – especially a woman of a certain age, who is more likely to understand the gesture – is ahead of or near me, I will make an effort to reach a door first, so that I can open it for her.
Most women my age (30s) and younger no longer understand that. I can’t change that, but I can promise that my daughters will understand it. I don’t want them to limit themselves to finding men who will treat them as equals; I want them to respect themselves enough to find men who will treat them as their betters.
Chip,
Whenever a man (or woman) holds a door open for me, I say “thank you”. I think we should always encourage politeness. I would prefer if men held doors open for anybody the door was about to close on (just like I think women should be doing this), but I want to be encouraging of all gestures of kindness/politeness. It’s tiny acts of kindness that add up to make us all more civilized toward each other, and it can be tiny acts of meanness that start a ball rolling in a direction we might not want it to roll.
I certainly don’t think women are better than men, though. I think men have traditionally held more institutionalized power (partly from greater physical power). Power corrupts. Enough women in extreme positions of power is just as corrupting. Both genders can be shitheads, and both can be honorable and decent.
And that, Cowgirl, goes straight to the heart of chivalry. It has a civilizing influence on men and it celebrates the differences between men and women in a way that builds up both. This goes above and beyond the courtesy and helpfulness I give to all.
I’m 51 and that means I’m old enough to remember when such behavior was the norm. I’m not going to say bad things didn’t happen in the past and the feminist movement – at least certain flavors of it – addressed serious social ills, but things have certainly worsened as modern feminism has driven chivalrous behavior out of the mainstream in favor of a false equality that is not based on reality.
@cowgirl:
Congratulations on getting married, I guess. I could make some generalizations about your husband based on a few lines of your text but that would not only be totally off base but incredibly f*cking stupid. You tracking?
“I just want to be treated like a person and spoken to with respect as a person of equal intelligence and value”
If this is what you want then stop behaving like the obnoxious harpy many of us have decided you are and have a discussion. Rather than call us misogynistic pigs you might actually discuss the issue. You seem more concerned with everybody’s respective “boner” than they are and you’ve managed to make up about half the comments on this article from what I’ve skimmed and it’s all the same wailing about woe is you you feel threatened and construction workers something something.
Seriously, get off it. Speak your peace and quit whining like a kid who didn’t get her way. As is I’m sure we’ll see another comment policy change thanks to your moaning. Can’t wait.
I am not “obnoxious” and “hysterical”. I’ve said I don’t like this bullshit, and don’t think you all should be speaking about women like this in a public space because you’re being misogynistic Neanderthals and hurting the cause.
Your response is to scream louder about your right to be little shitheads and to treat women like F-holes. Had those of you who have argued with me on this simply said: “Sorry, you’re right, that was inappropriate.” It would have ended. You’ve decided I’m a harpie because I won’t sit around while men keep behaving like this and I won’t remain silent.
Also, some of you guys responses to me and “attitudes” toward me is exactly WHY most women lurk here or remain silent when you all start this kind of shit.
Let me just tell you this. If the government comes in the middle of the night some day to take all your guns because you couldn’t fucking stop being assholes to women and you alienated all the women who otherwise would have joined and fought alongside you, then you got what you deserved because anybody idiotic enough to think it’s more important to be able to make gendered slurs against women than it is to keep their 2A rights and gain support from a group that makes up over half of the population is too stupid to be allowed to have a gun in the first damn place.
So think what you want about me, all I here is “whaaa, I can’t make this woman obey me.”
If you guys had any intelligence to speak of, you would work to make this place welcoming to women and not disrespect women so you could gain more and more support for 2A. Instead, you are turning off women left and right because we see you talking about other women like the misogynists some of you so obviously are. Why would any self-respecting woman stand with men who only like women as long as we keep our traps shut when you act like pigs?
“This shit” doesn’t hurt you, it offends you. I already pointed out that it was inappropriate and raised bigger issue with it. You just won’t be happy until we worship your superior feminine intellect and agree that we’re cave men.
You’re a f*cking troll…
Oh, and regarding your veiled assumptions about my husband, my husband is not “whipped”, nor is he to be ‘pitied’ for being married to this ‘harpie’. I don’t yell at him or emasculate or belittle him. We hardly ever argue about anything because he simply treats me like his equal and like an adult. He doesn’t demean me or talk shit about me in particular or women in general. He takes personal responsibility for his behavior rather than saying stupid shit like: “men will be men” or “boys will be boys”. He acts with honor and respect and treats me like a person. This really is not that difficult, but it seems you think it’s like scaling Mt. Everest.
In short, he’s a grown up.
Apparently, judging from some of the comments in this thread, he’s also a unicorn.
Actually Matt, this shit DOES hurt me. It makes me feel like shit when men speak like this about women and it makes me want to be as far away from most men as possible because I can’t trust them not to treat me like I’m some subhuman piece of shit. It DOES hurt me.
You denying that doesn’t diminish the reality. And you doubling down on your right to do it is just BS.
Also, you’re a cave man by your actions, not by virtue of having a penis. Stop doubling down on your right to be an asshole and I won’t think you’re a cave man. Otherwise, embrace your caveman status, I guess.
I’m not a troll just for not bowing down to you when you call me an obnoxious harpie and tell me to stop telling you your behavior is hurtful. It’s convenient to call anybody who won’t put up with your nonsense a troll, though.
If you think I’m a troll, however… it might be best not to feed me. I keep going as long as you do.
I know this is an older article now so nobody will probably read this… but damn.
Come on guys. Women make up half the population, are the most vocal of the anti gun camp, and a great number of those sitting on the fence are women.
Are we really so stupid (as a group) that we think being able to say whatever we want on the internet is more important than winning the hearts and minds of the public?
Some of the posters on here come across as complete idiots who are trying to emulate the pro-gun stereotypes that the statists take every chance to propagate.
@TheBear: THIS. Exactly this. And this was my main point and what I was trying to say in all my verbosity. (I DID say it but it might have sometimes gotten lost in the verbiage.)
This crap affects me on 2 levels:
1. It’s hurtful and harmful and makes me (and probably other women) feel unwelcome as like men on the political right are all a bunch of misogynistic Neanderthals who don’t give a crap about women at all.
which leads right into:
2. It serves to alienate women who are on the fence or re-inforce views of the anti-gun crowd.
Just like all republicans have to do to never lose again is SHUT UP about gay people and abortion and stop trying to make something like that a national issue when it should not be a part of the federal govt’s duties at all… ALL the gun people have to do to win 2A FOREVER, is win the hearts and minds of the women. Stop with the douche-y misogyny and gently introduce women to firearms in a way they’re going to relate to (their own personal protection, effectiveness of firearms, their RIGHT to not be brutalized by some random psychopath, etc.) and it’s game. set. match.
But I guess they’d rather keep on fiddling while Rome burns. Anybody who can’t keep from being distracted long enough to realize the right to say stupid shit to or about women in public is NOT worth their right to bear arms, is probably too dangerously stupid to have a gun in the first damn place.
Seriously. Guys need to focus and stop being distracted by boobs whether they like the boobs in question or not. I have NO freaking clue how you all managed to build skyscrapers, invent shit, or create civilization at all if this is all it takes to distract you from your mission. No wonder women have been kept down through the ages. We aren’t nearly this distracted by sex.
I have to agree with your sentiment to a point. The right to bear arms doesn’t stipulate anywhere that WHAT you carry has to be in pristine condition. My banged up 1911 may be a bit saggy and loose but it’s still covered.
LOL, Shaun! I’m not sure if I *should* think that was funny (I’ve got my woman rage hat on right now), but… it did make me laugh out loud. So thanks! (Shockingly when I type LOL in all caps, I’m not lying… I really laughed!)
I agree that some of the comments may be a bit out of line but you have to keep your sense of humor as well. I may still be somewhat young(36) but parts of me aren’t what they once were as well and I can only guess at what the next 20 years will do to me so…. “glass houses and stones” is all I’m saying here.
I’m just not quite ready to start throwing stones.
I agree re: keeping a sense of humor. At the same time, there is this saying that men are afraid women will laugh at them and women are afraid men will kill them. Men shout inane awful shit at women at construction sites all the time. Women often try to laugh it off, but they feel actively threatened. There have been too many times when a woman has stood up for herself and said: “Hey, don’t speak to me that way”, where the guy has felt so entitled that he’s become physically aggressive with her. There have been women who have had broken beer bottles smashed in their face for telling creepy guys in bars to leave them alone when they’re just trying to hang out with their friends. Women have been killed (stabbed even!) for refusing dates with men.
I’m not saying “all men are like this”, most aren’t, but it pretty much trains women to NEVER stand up for herself if a man says something that offends her, makes her feel uncomfortable or makes her feel unwelcome or unsafe, but to diffuse the situation as quickly as possible and get away. Even armed, I often don’t feel physically safe to stand up to men in public places to speak in demeaning ways to or about women.
Online, at least, there is not an IMMEDIATE threat of violence if a woman speaks her mind, but even online most women just remain silent and hope it stops soon. I get that crap like the sexual revolution has screwed things all to hell, but men used to at LEAST pretend to respect women in public. Now they don’t, and many women, including myself, feel pretty threatened and alienated by this turn of events. Even online.
I understand that talking about sense of humor is a way to diminish it. Nobody wants to be wrong about something like this. I get that. I’ve said or done insensitive things around black people and felt really embarrassed and ashamed when it was pointed out to me. The first reaction is anger or to act like the person is overreacting, because nobody wants to think they are part of the problem. But we all make mistakes. There were like 20 or more juvenile comments before I even spoke up. It was clear it wasn’t going to stop until and unless I did. It might STILL not stop. But a part of why this stuff keeps happening is that women are too scared to speak up and men take their silence for approval.
wait wait wait… You feel threatened by random people making dirtbag remarks online? What planet do you live on?
I just want to be sure I never visit when Virgin Galactic finally gets their act together. Live and let live is all well and good til one of the hens get her feathers ruffled. Somebody should pass a law or something.
Matt,
I didn’t say I felt personally threatened from internet comments. Try reading comprehension. but I do feel it’s a hostile environment when women are expected to just shut our little mouths and keep quiet while you all behave like pigs right in front of us.
How does this help 2A? Is this the hill you guys want to die on? Holy crap. I’ve never seen someone feel SO entitled to be a douche canoe to someone physically weaker than them.
But just because I personally don’t feel threatened right now does not mean that women online are not roundly told to STFU or sent rape and death threats for daring to tell men to stop being shitheads to them.
I also haven’t suggested anyone’s free speech rights should be curtailed. I’ve simply said I’m going to shame the shit out of men who make me feel like shit in a public forum while exercising their privilege to talk about women like they exist for their pleasure and don’t like have separate lives and worth beyond what’s between their legs or their cleavage.
Now they don’t, and many women, including myself, feel pretty threatened and alienated by this turn of events. Even online.
You’re vapid… Your arguments involving shitty random stories about how mean really have stabbed women for refusing dates are as absurd as the antis’ suggesting all gun owners are psycopaths waiting for their perfect moment to strike. Their are crazies out there, deal with it.
And if you don’t want people to look down on you, speak down to you, or treat you poorly; stop behaving like a f*cking loon. Go blog about it or something for God’s sake…
Matt,
My point, which so obviously sailed right over your head is that when women speak up about mistreatment, a good portion of men (and congrats, you’re in that category right now), intimidate women in order to shut them up so they can continue to behave like assholes.
Some men just shout down and shame until the woman shuts up (like what you’re doing.) Some men start in with rape and death threats. Some men stalk when they have access to the information to do so. Some men rape. Some men kill. Some men beat. MOST men don’t do any of that shit (though a larger portion do the kind of stuff you’re doing.) But why on earth would a man who would do the first one not automatically be put in the potential threat category for more?
Am I meant to think that a man who passionately defends his right to be a douche to women is a man who can be trusted alone with them. Really? I have no idea why you are fighting so vociferously for the right to be a jackass.
My arguments at least make sense as I’m simply asking that men try to think a little bit before they say hurtful gendered slurs in front of women. And again… 1/2 the population over there… technically a little over half. This is not the hill you want to die on if you care about your 2A. The misogynists need to be shouted down in the 2A movement or else we will LOSE. Dude, I don’t want to lose my RKBA just so you can be a jerk on a blog somewhere. Jesus. Get some perspective.
Nothing sailed over my head. However you fail to recognize the point I have been trying to make the whole time. You’re screaming and stomping your feet like a hysterical child and you insult anyone that attempts rational discourse with you. Then you throw out some random story about women being raped, stabbed, beaten, bullied etc about evil men as if it’s relevant to ANY part of ANY discussion being had outside of your own rants.
Furthermore, I couldn’t give fewer f*cks about your plumbing. I’m talking down to you because you’re behaving like a child throwing a temper tantrum.
Matt,
This is not even remotely true.
EVERY person in this thread who has attempted rational discourse with me (you are not among them), has been met with reasoned discussion. I’ve conceded some points and clarified others with people in this very thread. And it’s all here in black and white for you to read. So stop lying about me. If you don’t like the way I’m interacting with you, check your approach with me or stop talking to me. Believe me, I won’t miss your lack of comments in my direction.
Also, I’m not “screaming” about anything. Long paragraphs and strong opinions do not equal screaming. IMO YOU are the one being hysterical because you seem to think I’m over here having some kind of fit and stamping my feet like a small child. I’m doing so such thing. I’m debating/arguing, sure. If that’s too much for you, I suggest you go take your coloring book to the kid’s table and leave the grown ups to discuss things.
I also don’t throw out insults until someone else starts that with me. You started OUT on the offensive with me. Reread your first comments to me. I’m not sure why you thought I would respond to you any differently.
I’m not behaving like a child in any way, shape, or form. I’m simply disagreeing strongly with you. But you’ve decided that because I see the world differently than you that I’m throwing a “temper tantrum”. Let’s remember my “temper tantrum” is all because some men on this thread have behaved like misogynistic douche canoes and you decided to double down because apparently it’s really important to you that their immature and hate-filled comments about women be praised. All hail the mighty penis. Or something.
Let’s not ever offend the mighty penis.
You’re definitely correct, but try convincing the lunatic asylum here to be sensible.
Personally, i dont have a problem with either breasts or guns. The message in this article is hypocritical to say the least. Its also stupid at worst.
“What these exhibitionist simpletons obviously haven’t learned is that, like wearing Spandex, baring your boobs should be a privilege, not a right.”
This is the comment i have the biggest problem with. Well, no, its not a “privilege” you fvcktard, its a right. Ever hear of freedom of expression?
Your right to own a SBR or suppressed rifle is also a right, even though the courts and rule of law have designated it as a privilege in their infinite idiocy. Same argument. Same protections under the bill of rights.
+1
+2
Yeah gotta agree with you on that one, the issue is far more that these protestors were acting in a truly bizarre and tasteless fashion, not the attractiveness of the women perform said bizarre acts.
Though that does raise an uncomfortable question: if the different women took part, and those women had been considered attractive, would the commentator base have acted more in support of their anti-2A harassment?
I’d like to think not, but…
I think they still would have spoken out against them, but they would have just objectified them in a different way. Like:
“Hey, honey, why don’t you stop all that hard thinking, my bed needs warming.” Or something else equally gross.
It’s the point that… women who speak and say something you don’t like get judged on their appearance. They are either told they are gross and ugly and to go home and dismissed based on being gross and ugly. Or they are objectified and told their thoughts don’t matter because they are too pretty to think thoughts and should instead be spreading their legs for some dude (presumably the gross commenter.)
The reality is… these women’s arguments are weak on their face and if we want to engage with them at all, certainly we can point out the distastefulness of their chosen debate strategy, but the focus should be on their assinine arguments not their T&A.
“It’s the point that… women who speak and say something you don’t like get judged on their appearance.”
We’ve been dealing with the “OFWG” and “dumb redneck” stereotypes for years…. I know it’s not the same but it’s as close as men can get. Some of us get what you’re saying and even agree to a point. It’s at that point though that you seem to be painting with a pretty broad brush by lumping ludicrous puns and joking in with the misogynistic and hateful comments of others. Acknowledging the equality of women shouldn’t mean preferential avoidance of their flaws. It’s been pointed out to me on several occasions by my female friends how I’ve gotten a bit(just a little) pudgy around the middle or make “old man” noises when my bad knee creaks and pops. Parts wrinkle, sag and “fill out” on men too and let me assure you, our close male AND female friends alike are the harshest reminders of that because “guys can take it”. Now consider this… If a wife asks her husband “does my a$$ look big in these?”… how likely will she ever hear the word yes?
I think here we can come to an equitable agreement…. You don’t lump me in with the misogynistic jerks when I’m not being one and I won’t lump you in with the man hating feminazis that give women’s equality a bad spin. I don’t see you as one of “them” so I hope you’ll stick around and keep speaking up. I enjoy the extra point of view.
Most men will always be juvenile in some way shape or form. We like to blow $h!t up, look at boobies and buy unnecessary toys…. it’s what helps us(me) feel young even when knee surgeries, saggy bellies and thinning hair try to drag us down.
Shaun,
It’s true I may be using a bit of a broad brush and I can accept that criticism. For me it’s not that any “one” comment here in this thread is “that bad”. I mean few of the comments judging these women’s sexual appeal as if women EXIST for male pleasure is really winning any awards with me (not that such posters care). But really, it’s more the VOLUME of posts of that nature.
It’s like death by a thousand paper cuts. This sort of thing is pervasive for women. It’s pervasive when we go grocery shopping or walk past construction sites or really go anywhere or do anything where we may run into some random man-type person. It’s pervasive on the internet as well. It gets tired and old. And a lot of us are just tired of sitting by quietly and waiting for it to pass.
I’m not suggesting anybody should be banned or moderated, and I haven’t called anybody out personally. I don’t want to mess up anybody’s man cave and redecorate the place with frilly pink pillows (I don’t even like pink guns. I want ninja-looking guns!) But when it goes on and on, I intend to shame the shit out of people in a general sense. Just because it DOES go on and on until there is at least more than one side being spoken.
re: “preferential avoidance of their flaws” (re: women). The issue is that men often sexualize EVERYTHING about women. And so their petty attacks are gendered slurs by definition. (When women in our society have their entire value judged on their youth and beauty, attacking that is attacking a woman’s worth. Not just pointing out some flaw she may have.) And yeah, I get these women sort of invited that by going around topless, but the rude commentary about women’s attributes is just… it’s really disturbing IMO. That’s just how I feel but I also know it’s how a lot of women feel. But not necessarily how every woman feels.
To me it’s like a gendered slur I guess. You wouldn’t ever say it was okay for someone to call black people they don’t like the N word and then be like “Oh, but I was just talking about THOSE black people over there”. The way you treat and talk about the women you like the least IMO IS your level of misogyny. (general third person you.) Just like using the N word on any black person you don’t like, indicates your racism. I don’t want to be just treated with basic human dignity until I step a toe out of line. And I don’t think I should have to sit silent while I hear other women being trashed in gender slurred ways, either. Even though I loathe what those particular women stand for and feel they have no dignity or self respect.
And Shaun, I’m definitely not lumping you in with the misogynistic jerks, and I hope that you didn’t feel that I was. If you did, I apologize for coming off that way. I appreciate the reasoned and mature discussion you’ve had with me. I appreciate all the guys here (and women) who’ve discussed this without resorting to the stereotypical “men will be men, suck it up” bullshit.
re: juvenile, I don’t mind, as long as it isn’t hateful and degrading to a whole class of people. Juvenile can be fun at times.
Doesn’t sound like a bad weekend. Topless women, firearms… maybe the ATF can bring by some of the alcohol and tobacco they apparently deal with as well. Now it’s a party.
…but cowgirlup, I basically agree with you across the board here. And I don’t see any sort of aggressive comments being made on TTAG. The ugly stuff is in poor taste and it distracts from the actual issue at hand, but I don’t see this devolving into threatening comments. And breasts don’t have to be sexual so acting like that’s their primary function and judging them based on it is also off the mark and fails to address the attempted point of the ladies’ protest here.
Jeremy,
I agree that it hasn’t devolved into threatening comments. If I made it sound like I thought people were being “actively threatening” then I apologize. I was more trying to explain part of why it’s upsetting to many women to hear men talk about women like this and then turn around and be shocked when we don’t trust you as a group.
I recognize these women are themselves making it about their attributes, so to that degree there is some logic in pointing out how one feels about those attributes, but it’s still degrading and demeaning to women because the not-so-subtle message the rest of us get is that we are always on display for you and in the end, all you care about is if we can give you an orgasm and pet your ego. And that really hurts. A lot.
Jeremy,
I agree that it hasn’t devolved into threatening comments here. I hope I didn’t imply that I thought HERE in this space that it had gone to that degree. I was more expressing that this is where it often “starts” and when it does devolve it’s generally because a woman spoke up and questioned a man for saying degrading crap about women in public as if he has some inalienable write to talk about women like they are dogs with no one else having the right to step up and say no.
I recognize that these specific women are themselves making it about their attributes, so to that degree there is some logic in pointing out one’s like or dislike of those attributes. But it’s still degrading and demeaning to women because the not-so-subtle message to the rest of us is that our value is all between our legs and that men might tolerate us and let us speak as long as we agree with everything they say, but when we don’t, then our “attributes” become the center of the discussion.
But to be fair, these women in this protest started it. That’s why they embarrass me and I think if they call themselves feminists they shouldn’t have the right to because there is nothing about respecting women equally or at all in taking your top off, objectifying yourself, and then whining and screeching when someone else objectifies you, too. At the same time, this open sexualized hostility toward women is disturbing to me. (again, not implying that that means direct threats in this situation. But women aren’t exactly super comfortable being treated like meat 24/7, either.)
No, the attractiveness of the female trying to use her décolletage as an argument should not matter.
I’ve been down this road with the anti-meat/anti-fur/anti-hunting types in California. The best way I found to deal with them was to ignore their assets (whatever they might be) and start a dialog thusly:
“So… you’re against fur. And being topless reinforces that argument… how?”
“I’d rather go naked than wear fur.”
“Well, you’re able to say that because you’re protesting here in sunny California in summer. At most, all you might need is some sun screen today. If you wanted to use your lack of clothing to show that you’re really committed to not wearing fur at a great inconvenience to you, possibly even resulting in real lasting damage to your health, you’d be protesting topless in Fairbanks, Alaska in January. If you did that, the local people might not agree with your position, but they’d give you full credit for being truly invested in your position. Here… you have no investment. Anyone could go topless. I’ll bet there’s thousands of women going topless in California today, just not in such a public manner.”
“What does that have to do with anything?”
“Well, you’re not making any sacrifice by going without clothing in this weather, regardless of whether it is fur or not. By going without clothing here and now, you could be against the exploitation of cotton plants, for all I know.”
“But I’m against fur!”
“OK, but who would wear fur in this climate on a day like today? No one. Look around: Is anyone else who might be for fur wearing a fur on this warm sunny day? Look around. Where’s the fox pelt coats, the mink stoles, etc? I’m not seeing even a pair of leather gloves on anyone here. Everyone is wearing t-shirts, shorts and flip-flops.”
“That’s not the point!”
“Oh, yes it is. You’re not foregoing anything that anyone else isn’t already without. There’s no one else wearing fur that I can see. You are making no sacrifice, real or postulated. You’re just going topless to attract attention to you and your cause, not because it proves you’re inconveniencing yourself to a philosophical end. You could attract even more attention by lighting yourself on fire. At least then, you’d end up on the evening news.”
“I don’t see how that would reinforce my argument!”
“Exactly. It wouldn’t. And neither does this. Going topless in this weather has nothing to do with fur, meat or hunting. You’re just seeking attention, and you’re using the cheapest method available to you to get it. If you spent a couple bucks on a gallon of gas, you could increase the attention you receive by several orders of magnitude, but you won’t do it because you’re seeking the cheapest method with the lowest personal investment to gain the approval of your peer group. You going topless proves none of your arguments.”
Same deal here. I’d engage them and ask “How does going topless make an argument against (or even for) guns? I’m not seeing the connection. Please spell it out for me.”
This topless nonsense has been stock-and-trade of the political left in the US (and the UK) since the Vietnam war. It is the sign of a losing argument. Their internal logic goes roughly like this:
1. I want people to pay attention to my argument!
2. But no one will listen to my argument (mope, mope… because it isn’t a very good argument or point)
3. So I’m going to force people to notice me, and if I’m carrying a smart-alec sign, then I need a way to force people to pay attention to my argument….
4. Ergo: Boobs!
These people realize that no one is going to pay attention to their argument if they try to make it in a coherent, dispassionate manner, so they’re going to resort to tactics of shock and intimidation. Don’t let it work. Ignore the display of flesh, look them squarely in the eye and don’t back down. I’ve been there, done that with the varsity crazies in California. Austin is filled with the JV team, and they should be easy to dispatch with logic.
You’re not alone. I agree with all your comments, and the reason I became a gun rights activist is because of my having been subject to multiple aggressive sexual acts by men. Despite that, I love the men in my life, and I love a rowdy sense of humor, but sometimes it gets stupid, tedious, counterproductive, or even scary.
Thanks, Julie! It’s the reason I carry, too. I’m just sick of feeling scared all the time because of the sexually aggressive way men behave toward women. The world was better before the “sexual revolution” when men suddenly felt it was okay to be so aggressive (even verbally so) toward women. There used to be basic respect in how you treated and behaved around a lady. Not anymore. Now many men feel this kind of talk is A-okay and it’s just ‘men will be men” or “boys will be boys.” Screw that. But now, because of this kind of thing and the fact that some men will so aggressively defend their right to degrade women, I don’t feel safe around any man who isn’t in my absolute inner circle of trust. And that is why I carry.
Men who are contributing to this state of fear should be ashamed. Men who lack the empathy to understand what it’s like to live just one day in this world as a woman, I feel sorry for.
“Now many men feel this kind of talk is A-okay and it’s just ‘men will be men” or “boys will be boys.” Screw that.”
I don’t know if it’s actually “many” or if it’s just that the few happen to be the loudmouths of the bunch. I can’t speak for the younger generation but most of the guys I grew up around knew better than to act like that. There will always be a$$hats in any large group and unfortunately they seem to garner the most attention while the rest have better things to do.
That’s true. “many” is sort of a sliding scale. Maybe I should say “it feels like many because they are the only ones talking”.
I will say it makes a HUGE difference to me when other people, particularly men DO stand up and say: “Hey, that’s not cool. Don’t lower the conversation that way.” (or whatever.)
It made a big difference to me in just this thread when other people, especially men said things in that vein. I get that usually the loudest jerks do not represent everyone, but when it’s the loudest jerks and then otherwise a bunch of silence, it sounds like tacit acceptance. I appreciate everyone who has made even the smallest show of solidarity on this topic.
I don’t care about anyone else’s boner, but I have become rather fond and protective of mine. That said. mine didn’t wake up for this topic as it’s the wrong venue, and at my age, he needs all the rest he can get. I do sure hope that there is video capturing any vile or foul language spewed by these women against the people they are protesting. It was mentioned that they used racial slurs and obsenities and if that was the level of discourse they used, it makes them look like the fringe element they are.
🙂 It would be great if their racial slurs were getting more attention, I agree!
The Hysterical Mother has finally found a wining strategy. The ultimatum will be issued soon, unless the 2nd amendment is repealed Boxer, Pelosi, Feinstein and Bloomberg will all go topless on national television. The nation cannot survive millions of citizens gouging out their eyes with dull spoons. Resistance is futile, we must comply.
Mother of God… please let me forget I ever read that!
Thats it. If that happens I want off this planet.
I *would* like to get a peek at Shannon’s puppies. Come on, Shannon….show us how committed you really are….
Would (t)it be going to far to say, “Nice guns?”
And what of those “Moms” who gave birth to murderers? Mothers milk the cause?
MDA supports abortions right?
I could have gone all day without seeing this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npj5VV6fl6w
Her sign lied, they do not bring joy and comfort. Therefore we can posit the rest of the statements are also false, thereby guns do not only bring death.
Although, I do find it quite sexist and anti-feminist that they stereotype a part of the female anatomy in such a way.
You know, guys… I know you hate this stuff. I hate these women doing this stuff too. I hate that there are so many women out there pulling the “think of the children” thing, but as a woman here I’m sure the other women who lurk here feel pretty uncomfortable seeing the misogyny and woman-hating bullshit come out the second some woman whose boobs don’t meet your approval flashes them.
When you make comments like this you aren’t just being offensive to the women flashing their breasts and having no self-respect. You’re being defensive to every woman who now has to sit here and decide if she should remain silent so you don’t turn on her or speak up about her discomfort. (I’m kind of counting down here for one of you to get all irate that I should DARE come into your boy club and question your inalienable right to be misogynistic douches and make nasty comments about women’s breasts bared or not). But seriously you reveal yourself to be low rent and low class when you behave this way.
Most of you, with a few exceptions who have made some long anti-woman screeds seem pretty awesome most of the time, but it only takes something like this for a lot of women to feel that men really do not respect ANY women and all it takes is for something like this for you to start pulling this stuff. This is largely why a lot of women here just lurk and are afraid to participate in the conversation. Nobody would put up with racist comments about black people in public, but women are still fair game. Seriously, stop it. You’re hurting your cause.
Women make up 51% of voters. You need us in order to maintain 2A and roll back all this liberal BS socialism. When you show yourself to be this hostile to women who step a toe out of line or this demeaning to women who show their breasts when it doesn’t meet with your approval, all you’re doing is alienating the women you NEED.
They’ll go flocking to the feminists, which by and large are pro-state. And we don’t need any more of that crap. We need women to feel welcome on the right and with things like 2A to keep these rights. So the petty misogyny has to go. It’s not the hill you want to die on. And if it is, you’re a bunch of mouthbreathing morons.
Methinks the cowgirl should maybe lighten up a bit.
I don’t see mysogyny in the posts above. I don’t see any hatred or disrespect of women in general. I see ridicule directed toward a select group. Well-deserved ridicule.
Methinks she’s whining for attention.
The ridicule of those women for their behavior IS well-deserved. But it’s gendered and it’s commentating on women’s bodies as a way to silence them. It’s plenty to say: “That behavior is classless and shameful and embarrassing.”
Look, when you’re the stronger gender and you don’t have to worry about gendered violence, you dont’ get to tell women to “lighten up” or they are overreacting.
When I see men behaving like this I think you’re all just a bunch of animals and that you will escalate things until you get your way. It’s happened far too many times. If you want to be ignorant little hateful douches, I will speak up.
And the REASON I’m speaking up… (addressing Michael below also), YES I want attention but NOT for the reason you seem to think. The reality is that this kind of talk and behavior toward women who dont’ agree with you, taking the cheapest possible shots, alienates women in general. Dude, is this really the hill you want to die on?
You want the government coming for your guns and your 2A rights because you couldn’t manage to stifle your urge to be complete and unimitgated assholes about women in general every time a woman said something you didn’t like? Because when it comes to women embracing guns and 2A we’re in a sensitive place right now. Don’t alienate your possible allies. I’m always going to be 2A no matter how big of jerks some of the men on places like this become. But a lot of women will decide that you guys are awful assholes and use it against you in their fight against guns.
I don’t want that to happen. I want to keep my 2A rights, and your right to say demeaning bullshit about women without being challenged is NOT worth my right to bear arms. And it’s not worth your right to bear arms.
You can say whatever you want, but you can’t say it unchallenged. Your right to free speech doesn’t mean I can’t call you out. If more women consistently spoke out about this kind of nonsense you’d keep your demeaning bullshit to the locker room where it should have stayed.
Oh god. Take it to Tumblr, babe.
“Look, when you’re the stronger gender and you don’t have to worry about gendered violence, you dont’ get to tell women to “lighten up” or they are overreacting.”
The comments(opinions) may have been unnecessary, rude and/or uncouth but I disagree for two reasons….
1. The modern firearm is the greatest equalizer ever devised short of mutually assured destruction and the second amendment secures you the right to that equalizer. The 2a IS an assurance of women’s equality.
2. In the name of equality… Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and is entitled to it. You can tell people whatever the you want but they do not have to agree or comply.
@Michael, no, I think I’ll keep it right here, Apple Dumpling.
@Shaun,
re: point 1. I agree and have never said any different. I think the 2A is a HUGE women’s issue and I seriously resent the “feminists” who would like to take my right away to protect my own bodily integrity. They think abortion rights are a life or death issue because you can die from pregnancy, well newsflash sisters, lots of rapists kill their victims so… yeah.
I agree that guns are a great equalizer but it’s still not a guarantee. And unfortunately a lot of women can’t be convinced to arm themselves. I think if all women armed themselves and trained, rape would become an almost nonexistent problem. It would only take a few men losing use of their penis to suggest that perhaps they should just masturbate at home or target goats instead of women.
re: point 2: that’s true. People can tell me to “lighten up” if they want to. I’m certainly not for stopping their right to say whatever dumb shit they want. I am perfectly capable of verbal sparring and can reply as needed with my own opinion.
I can’t make them stop telling me to “lighten up” and they can’t make me “lighten up.” So it’s a stand off. I guess they can shut up or keep arguing with me, though why anybody argues for the right to make gendered slurs, I don’t know. What a stupid hill to die on.
Thank you Curtis. Men are pigs. Nobody wants to see ugly women naked. They deserve all the abuse they get. The left has no cogent argument so resorts to this pornography. Deal with it cowgirl. Mamaliberty gets it.
No.
I agree that the petty mysogeny has to go, and I don’t want to hear about peoples boners either (some people just lack the part of their brain that censors their mouths), but I do not necessarily agree with you that protesting in the nude is disrespectful or embarrassing to “all women” either (and more than the OCTX idiots represent my views of tact). Nor do I think that it sets feminism back. Protesting in the nude (nude bike rides, nude subway rides) is much more common in Europe, as are nude beaches. Americans have this puritanical hang up about boobs.
Your body, your choice. Who cares?
Seems to me they succeeded in their goal, to get a lot of attention. Using whatever tools they can to advance their cause (including using peoples hang ups – look boobs!), is that empowerment, or does that set feminism back? Seems to me the former.
Does it advance the debate? Of course not. But as the saying goes, when the facts are not on your side baffle them with BS.
DWB,
Fair enough re: protesting in the nude isn’t disrespectful or embarassing to “all women”. Can we at least agree that it’s way far off topic on this particular issue?
And to be fair I should have been more specific in my criticism. It embarrasses “me” that they do this. This is the same group that claims to be feminists and for women’s rights and equality and women not being objectified, then they objectify themselves as a debating strategy. I just think it’s shameful and makes women look like little children who can’t handle adult debate.
Part of my problem with things like nude protesting “is” our puritanical hang up. Breasts are so sexualized here that it’s hard to see it as anything other than a woman using her sexuality to try to short circuit men’s brains and win by default. (Though judging by some of the OG DOESN’T LIKE THAT SET OF BOOBIES! SHOW ME BETTER BOOBIES!!! comments in this thread, perhaps they are on to something.)
If the idea didn’t already bore me I would be tempted to find out just how many of these commenters have previously espoused the virtues of traditional families. If their idea of tradition includes debasing half of that family for the natural consequences of being traditional I would rather side with the other people who may or may not want to marry chairs.
No, cowgirl, I don’t agree. If anyone is offended by what is posted here, they have the ability to ignore it. If they are actually threatened with physical harm, they have the natural authority to defend themsevles. If these ladies want to practice indecent exposure and look stupid as hell, that’s their problem.
I wrote about this business of being “offended” here: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/?p=5108
Not my problem.
“You made me mad. You didn’t make me happy. I’m offended.” You can probably add a hundred more such phrases people use to control what you do, say and even what you believe. That’s exactly what happens when a few people can choose any word or object, assign a specific (often NEW and ugly) meaning to it, and then demand that nobody use that word or object because it “makes them feel”… whatever.
So, it’s A-okay with you if men are actively demeaning and degrading toward women who disagree with them on something? It’s okay to make things about women’s sexual appeal and to ignore them if the men don’t get boners because of course ugly/fat women have no value and nothing worth talking about. And if they’re hot, it’s okay for men to diminish and degrade them because they are “too pretty to think?” (particularly if they disagree.)
Well, alrighty then.
Also, I didn’t say that me being offended means people have to stop saying stupid offensive bullshit, but when you say stupid offensive bullshit in public, that’s your right, but other people have the right to say it is offensive to them and why.
If you don’t like my offense… take your own advice and scroll on by it.
Cowgirl, I agree with what you’re saying, but I’m also completely offended by you. If we were speaking in person I would not give you 3 seconds of my time before walking away. Bear that in mind when spreading the good word (about gun rights). It’s not just what you say, but how you say it.
I’ve actually never, ever in my life encountered a man that thought it was ok to make comments about a female stranger’s appearance to her, or one that embraced the “too pretty to think” cliche. I’m not saying it never happens, but it happens a lot more on TV than in real life.
And since I have a unisex name, I’ll just point out that I am a dude.
Trust me, it happens all the time in real life.
That said, I’ll admit I haven’t read all of cowgirlup’s posts on the topic either. But I understand the frustration.
That’s fine Layne. Not everybody is compatible, and I don’t expect us all to be BFF.
Just shows how incredibly desperate for attention they are. Not to mention what it says about their character. I hope they keep it up. Stunts like this will quickly invalidate them. Bloomberg must be proud.
True. I’m weirded out that these women seem to think this is a legitimate debating tactic.
possibly NSFW Was not an appropriate or adequate warning.
MOMS has a LONG way to go before they reach the heights of PETA.
Hey cowgirlup, if they dont want people to make fun of them, maybe they shouldn’t flaunt them in public
I see what you’re saying Zachary about mocking the people who are doing such shameful things. I’m not saying there’s not a place for social shaming of bad behavior. (I mean, I’m doing it in this thread. 😛 ) But I guess the tone of it comes across as not particularly productive. And I’m saying *I* feel alienated here from you guys and this blog when this starts. And I don’t want to feel that way. I don’t want to keep silent and just push the discomfort and hurt over it down. I want to see your better angels come out in a reasoned discussion. I want to feel welcome here as a woman and I want other people to feel welcome here.
I worry seriously about our 2A rights. As a woman it’s extremely important to me to be able to protect and defend myself since my husband cannot act as my bodyguard 24/7 in life. (Even if he could, I would prefer to feel empowered to protect myself with a weapon, rather than be some damsel in distress.)
I think the growing numbers of women getting into hunting/shooting is a good thing because like it or not, women do have a big influence over whether there are guns in the home, how children both boys and girls are raised to see guns, etc. This is just too big of a fight. It’s too important to cling to the right to commentate on random women’s boobs on sites like this. I want women to not turn their backs on 2A because they feel like men on the right hate them. It’s hard to get across to women how important 2A is for women, and it’s even harder when women feel like they’re sitting in a boy’s club hoping the men don’t notice they are women. (either for good or ill.) I just want to be treated like a person. I don’t want to be constantly reminded that if I’m not on your side, you’re going to start making nasty comments about my body. (either that you like it or that you don’t. Either way is not comforting to us.)
Do keep in mind the possibility that SOME of the nasty comments are likely false-flaggers.
We see it quite a bit here, especially after RF instituted the stricter comment moderation. Look at the names of commenters posting the ‘over the top’ insulting stuff…usually names we don’t recognize as regulars.
That’s not definitive, but also factor in you never see them again. They often post insult with no substance.
My hypothesis is false flaggers trying post here on stories like this trying to stir things up while simultaneously providing fuel for them to cut and paste ‘bites’ from the comments that show how “EVIL” we are.
There’s a pattern…and it fits much more closely with what we see from their comment sections than it does the higher level in discourse seen here on MOST article’s comments … by the regulars at least.
Food for thought…
That’s a good point, JR. Thanks for bringing that up. I hadn’t thought of that. I did notice they weren’t regular posters for the most part, but then I also just assumed they were people who liked to lurk until they could say something nasty about women. (Yes, I’ve grown that cynical.) But you very well may be right on that. I hope so.
I also very much appreciate the higher level of discourse here, which was part of why I felt such an urge to speak up about this because nobody else was, and it bugged me that we were all going to pretend it was just A-okay and not counterproductive to the overall 2A goal.
If they “are” false flag type posts, later used to try to manipulate other people (in this case women) and make them think the people here are “EVIL”, then it might behoove us all to call that shit out when it happens. Silence is seen as agreement by many. Calling it out means that if they link back to it and people read the comments, they will see that “No, TTAG isn’t a bunch of evil people and they are calling out the people who say that stuff.”
“then it might behoove us all to call that shit out when it happens.”
Agreed 100%.
Realize that you’re in a mostly male space and trying to shame guys for making jokes about these ridiculous people who let it all hang out. This is not tumblr.
Be more like commenter Mina and less like the average run-of-the-mill SJW.
I’m male and also find the comments idiotic and immature. And, they don’t help our public image at all.
Gonna try to tell me what and how to think and post now?
Come on. There’s a LOT more going on here with this story that merits a ton of discussion than the body type of these women.
Funny thing, too…I wonder how many people typing this 12 year old level stuff are among the same ones criticizing the OC-ers for “giving ammo to the anti’s.”
It’s the same PR war…whether we type it or do it and get photographed.
Dude, what is it with you guys and Tumblr? I don’t even go to Tumblr.
Just because it’s a mostly male space doesn’t mean you have the inalienable right to behave like a bunch of CroMagnon cave dwellers without anyone challenging you. I mean come on. It’s also a public space and supposedly a lot of you are confused about why you can’t get more women into guns. Well maybe because it’s still such a big boys club that only the most aggressive women or the submissive wallflowers who go to the range with a male escort feel comfortable. You think?
I agree with Cowgirlup. Come on guys, if you want to be taken seriously in 2A debates and if you want more support from women for 2A, then don’t post “boobies!” comments that make you sound like you’re twelve years old. Be a mensch.
LMAO, T!!
I would have rather seen pictures of the pro 2A crowd instead. Especially if they were a diverse bunch open carrying without causing a ruckus. That would have been a much more palatable pic.
Hey, I’m a fan of open carry. Just make sure you carry yours in a safe position, not at the ready. At-the-ready might be seen as
friskyaggressive.Wait, are we talking about open carry of guns or boobs?
Fight the power! Fight against the injustice forbidding women to go topless (though if you are over 40 you might want to cover them).
Those are dugs. This is bait-and-switch.
We there goes my innocence an child like wonder for the day….
I want to control the exposure of those teats as badly as they want to control my gun ownership.
But seriously, does MDA think they’re going to win the hearts and minds of gun owners by flaunting their sorry looking naked bodies and saying its “for the children”? Honestly, I feel that this is the kind of thing that interferes with my parenting. It gets between me and my kids. When my kids see the kind of “protesting” I have to explain it to them and tell them whats going on and why I think its wrong. Then I have to answer the thousand question they have to the next week. Its bad enough that my television forces me to explain why Timmy has 2 mom’s. No one should be able to make that decision for me ot my family. I don’t have a problem with “Timmy’s Moms”, but its my decision what my children see what I think it right for them. I shouldn’t have to deal with that on Nickelodeon of the Disney Channel.
Bottom line, I’m not going to take a second to consider anything they have to say when their actions effect my kids this way. In reality, all this “boob-slinging” does is force me to tell my kids that these people are insane, That neither I nor their mother approve of what they’re doing. We don’t approve of how they live to what they stand for. THEY are creating a greater divide between us.
+1000
For a group of people who is constantly going on about “think of the children” they surely don’t care the obscenity “the children” are exposed to (unless it’s one of their personal pet issues.)
I don’t think bared breasts are “necessarily” obscene. But in our culture it’s clear they’ve become so sexualized that it’s nearly equivalent to a man whipping his penis out before walking down the street. Right or wrong, that’s where we’re at right now and they should cover up and have some dignity.
Cowgirlup-I agree with your sentiments. One can disagree with MDA without utilizing misogynistic labels. There is no sense in marginalizing an entire gender.
Thanks, Pantera! I want to feel welcome here, and I want other women to feel welcome here. I know I use a lot of words, but I’m just verbose in general. I try to cover as many angles of what I’m trying to say as possible to communicate effectively and as clearly as I can.
If they were all at least decent looking, I would say finally OC isn’t annoying and pointless to me.
DO NOT WATCH THE YOUTUBE VIDEO! Republic of texas tv is not good at blocking out the stomach churning images.
Well at least I have the good taste to keep my EDC properly holstered and tucked away under a loose fitting shirt.
I couldn’t care less that these women went topless, it’s the shouting of obscenities and racial slurs that tells me they are losing and they know it. I hope that there is video of the foul and inflametory language. to show the world who the lunatic fringe really is.
EXACTLY. +10000.
All this attention on the baring of breasts has taken the attention off the larger pattern of their behavior….reprehensible behavior that SHOULD be the center of discussion here.
Way be distracted, folks. You are playing into their game.
Cowgirlup is right. Judging these women’s method of protest is one thing whether we feel that it’s simply bad taste or just plain immoral. But judging someone because their body doesn’t meet the impossible standard set by the magazine rack in the grocery store really does demean women everywhere. It tells them that unless their bodies are fit for the cover of Shape or Cosmopolitan, that their thoughts and opinions couldn’t possibly be legitimate.
Thank you so much for this! In as many words as I’ve used, I couldn’t quite articulate it as clearly as you just have. The way I feel as a woman going through the world and talking to men about issues that are serious is generally like this:
1. If I don’t please your boner you don’t care what I have to say because I’m not pretty enough/hot enough/perfect enough to even get your attention.
2. If I please your boner too much, you don’t care what I have to say because I’m here for decoration and your amusement and my intelligence and thoughts don’t matter.
Either way, what I think or feel doesn’t matter. That’s the bigger issue, and that’s the main reason why stuff like this is so offensive and demeaning to women. And why it’s counterproductive here.
I agree with this.
But, I don’t personally think that protesting nude “demeans women.” Your body, your choice. Women have been using men’s weaknesses against them for thousands of years. The ability to do it without being stoned to death like in Iran is empowerment and freedom, not a setback for feminism. Yes, we are stupid for falling for the boobie trick for the ten trillionth time. But that just makes (some) men look like stupid middle schooler’s. No, it probably does not advance the debate. But, then, attention getting gimmicks is all they seem to have. If that’s the playing field the MDA wants to play on, its their org.
DWB,
You’re right, there are shades of gray in that issue. I can’t just put one big blanket over it. I can say IMO it demeans women, but maybe I should rethink that as well. My biggest beef with it is that it seems to lower the respect men give women because look at the comments in this thread. I’m not sure what the solution is. I mean I’m not going to pull out the feminist equivalent to “don’t teach women self-defense, just teach men not to rape” because ick.
What I don’t like is the reaction women get from men when they protest anything nude. They either get the reactions in this thread if they aren’t “hot enough” or they get a bunch of objectifying “I want to bang her” reactions. And both reactions disrespect women. The only solution I know is for women just not to do it. But you’re right that women having the “right” to do it and not being stoned is at least something!
This is something I’ll have to think on more. I know it’s definitely not a way in which I would conduct myself, and it seems to me to be counter to the desire for equality and being respected for one’s mind rather than one’s physical assets, but yeah… I’m pretty conflicted on it right now. I just don’t like the reaction it gets from men and feel like it’s just encouraging more disrespect to women, but I don’t know if the solution is for women to never protest topless or not. All I can really control here is what *I* would do… which is NOT protest topless. Good food for thought.
I have to think more on this one, DWB. I think you make some good points and my personal dislike of nude protesting (mainly because of the way it seems to encourage men to treat women whether those women are hot or not), can’t define whether or not it actually demeans women. Maybe I should just keep the blame pointed at those making stupid comments about women and not make it about the women themselves. Even though I think their protest is off-topic and don’t personally care for it or their views that led up to it.
hey dwb this site keeps trying to eat all my comments to you. not cool, site! Anyway, your comment here to me and one up higher upthread has given me a lot to think about with regards to nude protesting not being wholesale demeaning to women. I should separate my own personal feelings about it out and not make a blanket statement on that one. I agree that it’s good at least that women have the right to do it and don’t get stoned. I guess that’s something. My issue is that whenever women do nude protests it causes a few issues:
1. Men start behaving like jackasses. (whether they are hot or not. It’s just a different type of objectification depending on whether their boner points north or south at the time.)
2. It’s way off-topic and makes it look like women can’t engage in intelligent debate on a subject and that all they have is their sexuality.
Of course you do seem to be on point on the issue of it being so powerfully distracting to the male brain. I think it’s pretty weak to allow boobs to cause you to stray so far off topic and lose sight of your actual reason for fighting for 2A. It doesn’t seem to matter if the boobs in question please or offend boners, they still keep men from forming cogent arguments or noticing anything else. So… points for the girls, I guess. Though it’s a sad commentary on both genders.
@Salty Bear (and @cowgirlup):
It tells them that unless their bodies are fit for the cover of Shape or Cosmopolitan, that their thoughts and opinions couldn’t possibly be legitimate.
This is a straw man. The only reason that the bodies of the women are associated with their argument is because those women willfully and intentionally chose to conflate their bodies with their argument. Call it an ad hominem own-goal.
Look, I don’t care how perfect-according-to-society the, ahem assets are: when left-over hippies longing for the glory days of the 60s use the “topless protest” tactic, it is a tacit admission that they have no logical argument. At that point: there’s no logical debate to be had, no civil discourse to be had. There is only sophistry.
While I may not personally choose to respond in kind, I can’t say that I’m terribly bothered by a bit of fighting Alinsky fire with Alinsky fire in return – nor can I say that I’m terribly bothered by ridiculing a ridiculous ad hominem own-goal for the ridiculousness that it is.
Is it crude and childish? Yes. But it is in response to a crude and childish act, and in the context of any possibility of civil discourse having already been demolished. There is no lost opportunity here, thanks to the chosen tactics of the leftover hippies representing MDA.
But I will say: I’m somewhat offended that you would imply that the commenters here belie some inherent potential to do physical harm to women, merely because they are dishing out the ridicule that their targets asked for, through their chosen tactics. That’s at least as misandrist as the misogynistic comments you (rightly) admonish.
Are we better than this? Certainly. And 99% of the time, we need to be. This, however, isn’t one of those times.
If I’d been one of the RBKA demonstrators there, I probably would have whipped up a Sun’s Out, Guns Out counter-counter-protest sign.
Hey Chip,
I agree they brought it on themselves with their behavior. However, I still don’t think it’s the high road, I still think it’s misogynistic, and I still think it’s a gendered slur. You wouldn’t get to call a “really bad horrible black person that you personally don’t like” the N word and say it wasn’t racist because they did something to “bring it on themselves.” I can’t agree that women ever bring sexist misogyny on themselves, even though these women DO deserve derision, there are ways to do it other than the ways many chose on this thread. And particularly given the number of women who lurk and post here who you might want on your side for 2A since we make up over half the population.
Re: suggesting that men who say things like this are going to commit violence against women, I don’t believe I really suggested/said that, but if the way I worded things implied that as some sort of “wholesale statement”, I apologize. Misogyny, hatred, and violence against women is a sliding scale. Men who routinely make douche-y, hateful, misogynistic comments toward or about women ARE a greater threat physically to women then men who do not… statistically speaking. It doesn’t make men who say douche-y things all rapists or potential rapists, but when you get into “domestic abusers”, “rapists”, etc, one thing they all seem to have in common, is deep-seated misogyny. So COULD there be some predators here? Um, yeah. There could be. I’m sorry if you don’t like that. Am I saying there are? No. How the hell would I know that? But women have a reason and a right to feel uncomfortable when men climb up the first ladder rung of the ladder of woman hatred.
Most of us feel safer with men who show basic respect and decency to women. There are plenty of men who spout misogynistic crap, tell women they are overreacting to it, and then later turn out to be wife beaters. I’m just saying. Respect is respect, and men who get really upset when someone asks for basic respect for women are not to be trusted in my book. No man gets an automatic pass from me because his feelings might be hurt, particularly if he didn’t give a shit about MY feelings to begin with.
Also @DWB, I’m sorry, I’ve tried to reply to two comments you made to me multiple times but every single time the site eats it like that reply link times out or something. Anyway, you’ve given me a lot to think about. I’m open to considering more nuance to my argument about women protesting nude being demeaning to them. I guess I think it is because men so often seem to disrespect them wholesale when they do it, either by objectifying them or mocking and humiliating them for not “measuring up”. I’m not sure really what the answer is to make that shit stop. To me it seemed simplest for women not to take off their tops in public, but maybe I’m thinking about that wrong and at least they do have the right to, you’re right. I’m definitely conflicted on that point, now. But it does embarrass me when they do it because they scream about not objectifying women and then they objectify themselves. It’s hard to expect men to respect women when they won’t respect themselves. And it’s also off-topic for their debate points and a childish behavior.
So… “Moms Demand Action go Topless”…. Yet again…. They never cease to amaze. I wonder if ol’ bloomy himself is real proud of this one.
The first sign has an excellent description of the Bloomberg Mommies: they are, in fact, boobs.
MDA could have at least used bloombergs 50 million to hire some better boobs.
Meh…so what. Big deal.
2 middle age women with their tops off isn’t much of a protest. I would have ignored them. /shrug.
Hey I live here. We just take it in stride. I’ve seen topless runners on the trails around Lady Bird Lake. There’s even a guy that rides his bike about town in nothing more than a thong (shoestring). Shock value died out here over 40 years ago. Sometimes we’re amused, but we’re rarely surprised.
Political statement… meh. It would take a lot more to get our attention. As for APD…they’ve got much better things to do with their time and resources.
Boobs may feed babies, but a rifle can feed an entire family.
Plus, you don’t give a baby buttermilk, ladies.
Being nude is a right. Being protected from what offends you is not. Nudity laws are just part of oppression. Boobs, penises, vaginas aren’t harmful if kids see them, why would anyone go that idiotic route of argument.
MDA are idiots regardless
Exactly. Everyone has a nude body that they presumably must see on a regular basis, so how on earth can you be offended by the sight of someone else’s? Are you offended each night in the shower? Who among us would shield a child’s eyes if a dog walked by with his anus in full view?
In another year or two, they’ll be playing soccer with those things.
I carry a gun because I can’t scare the bad guys into submission with a nekkid grandma!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqDGK_UjfFI
She’s as pointless as a boobie without a nipple.
you have to take the good with the bad.if your pro bare chested women than you’re going to have to expects the percentage of them two be ones that you may not enjoy looking at
This is the MDA equivalent of OCT’s “Chipotle Ninjas”
All a bunch of boobs if you ask me.
I’ll take neckbeards over flapjacks any day.
I would have been sad if you hadn’t been here to rag on another open carry demonstration in Texas. I’m glad you’re consistent.
RF is hoping some Israeli supermodels sign up with MDA (temporarily) for a similar protest.
I actually figured there was some kind of “catch” in the title–but being in Austin, I should have guessed it was literal. Cowgirl, I like your posts a lot in general, I’m proud that we have ladies like you (and the other ladies here) on “our side”. And I agree that calling something a “joke” is sometimes just a kind of deceptive way to try to minimize bad behavior. And I’ll agree that there is some (OK, a lot of) juvenile behavior going on here (I know–DUH!!). But I think you will agree that these goofy gals and their inane “protest” brought the vast majority of it–even the juvenile stuff–on themselves. Please don’t go all PC and hypersensitive here, equating remarks about a specific situation and specific people with animus against a whole sex (yes, sex–a biological term; “gender” is a grammatical term that describes words, not living beings). Anyone who has followed the threads relating to the militarization of the cops and seen the comments about the relative rotundity of a lot of the pictured “operators” will see that the “books and covers” thing does not necessarily target only the females hereabouts. Having said that, I also have to say that some of the remarks directed towards, for example, Shannon and her “puppies” are just uncalled for. She wasn’t part of this fiasco, and in my opinion, remarks about her physical attributes and the desire to observe same are just gratuitous.
Robert,
I do agree that these women bring derision upon themselves. However, I disagree that I’m being “PC” and “hypersensitive”. Someone here in this thread already pointed out that these MDAs have said a bunch of racist things. And most here don’t seem to think that’s okay.
So WHY is disrespecting women as a class okay? And yes, when you start demeaning women for not giving you boners (and if they had been hot it would have been demeaning them by suggesting they get in your bed and shut their stupid mouths [not you personally, general third person you]), okay? The answer is that it’s NOT.
I wouldn’t speak up if I didn’t think men could be better and do better, if I didn’t think it was men just thinking it’s no big deal because women usually don’t say anything.
We don’t say anything because we feel threatened and alienated and shitty. It hurts me to hear men speak about women this way because I feel like those men will only ever see me as something to sleep with or something to ignore and deride. PLEASE treat me and other women like PEOPLE.
Even if you don’t like their method of debating, be the bigger person and show some honor. (I’m not saying you personally have been part of this, this is just a general comment directed at men who think this shit is okay.) Every woman is not your enemy but you are making some of us who are the good ones give men in general the side eye. I decided to carry partly because of the growing disrespect toward women.
Seeing how men feel about women and the “men will be men” stuff, outside the locker room makes me actively afraid of men. You can say I’m too sensitive but I’ve seen too much escalate when women speak out and ask men to show them basic respect. I carry because I will NOT live in fear of men who have way more testosterone than sense or basic decency.
If you think I contribute to most of the convos I’ve been in here, and you think I’m somewhat intelligent and you like having me here, then consider for a moment that what I’m telling you is how men are making women feel when they behave so openly sexually and aggressively. This is not okay. You can go on lying to yourself that it is but maybe the increase in women packing heat is because more and more women are starting to feel threatened by the boldness men are suddenly gaining in their undisguised aggression and degradation of women.
And now that we’ve seen how you think and that you won’t just keep it in the locker room, we feel we have reason to be afraid because some percentage of you are dangerous to us. Most of you are not, but that doesn’t mean the words you say don’t hurt us. When you have mothers and daughters and wives and sisters, women you supposedly love, I can’t imagine why ever disrespecting women would be a right you would want to fight for. Why would decent men fight so hard for the right to demean and degrade women publicly?
But thank you for seeing some of the gratuitousness of some of the remarks.
Two things, cowgirl–one I think you’re wrong about and one I definitely agree with you about:
1. Looks like you blew right past the point I was trying to make, that making comments about this particular group of women is not the same thing as “degrading women as a class”–at least the comments per se, as I read them, were directed at this one bunch of women who, you said you agree, brought it on themselves. To say that that automatically “degrades women as a class” is precisely what I mean by “hypersensitive” and “PC”. It’s like those women who choose to take any insult directed at Hillary! as an insult to all women everywhere. It just ain’t necessarily so.
2. That said, you’re “not leaving it in the locker room point is sot on, and I think is the greater truth here. We do in fact have “ladies present” at the forum here. We should be cognizant of that fact, even proud of it, and it calls for a bit of “watch your language, boys” type of respect.
oops– I meant to say your “not leaving it in the locker room” comment is _spot_ on.
Robert,
I think that kind of talk toward women is a gendered slur. It’s sexualized and very specifically about them as women. It’s this idea that men have some inalienable right to commentate constantly about women’s “hotness” and shame them or humiliate them either way.
If someone made racial slurs against just “some specific black people they didn’t like” it would still be a racial slur.
I’m happy to agree to disagree on this one, but this probably isn’t one we’ll disagree with. I do appreciate the locker room agreement, though!
As with many things on the intrawebz, this seems to have gotten a bit larger than I believe it would have in the real world. I can only speculate that this would have been a completely different conversation if a few simple things were different.
There is no inflection on the internet. Sometimes inflection and context make worlds of difference regarding the intent of a statement. Context can also apply to the nature of the person making the statement. Some of the juvenile comments made on here likely wouldn’t have struck anyone as offensive had they known the commenter. Anonymity is rarely beneficial in a conversation.
With all(some) seriousness… To some of us(myself included), a saggy booby joke is just a joke the same as an OFWG joke or calling John Kerry “skeletor”. We make fun of Michael Moore for his boobies too so it really is equal opportunity from my perspective. I only wish you could hear how many “old man” jokes my girlfriend(8 years my junior) cracks herself up with at my expense. Because it’s coming from her, and I know the context or hear the inflection, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
I’d probably still be bothered about some of these comments in person, too. The only difference is… depending on the circumstances and company, things men might say publicly online, they would at least have the decency and good sense not to say in front of me in person.
Jeez, they could have at least have had a passably good-looking Mom participate. I haven’t felt so sick since I got diarrhoea in January.
I’ll fell like a right tit if MY mom sees this post.
Boy, there sure have been a lot of replies to this post.
What is up with the universal rule that the folks who show their boobs most are the ones the rest of us want to see the least?
Attractive people know that they have something of value. If you’ve got something everybody wants, you don’t just give it away. That’s why nude beaches are entirely old men.
I am continually astounded by the idea that children need to be protected from exposure to female breasts. I’m sorry, that’s just bizarre.
Ironic… “Mom’s Demand Action” already sounded like a cheap porno
They’re getting pretty demanding. Someone give them some action!
“Boobs bring joy and comfort,” her sign says. I say that depends entirely on who they’re attached to.
Sure, the majority of its residents’ preening leftist moral narcissism can be exhausting, but by and large, the capitol makes up for it with an undercurrent of libertarianism combined with great music and a fantastic food scene.
That’s funny right there. A-yup.
They used to say the same thing about Santa Monica. And San Francisco. And Portland. And Ft. Collins. And, and, and.
I’ve been to Austin. Used to get sent there on business quite a bit. I foresee Austin becoming the next mecca for hipster jerks after they decide that there’s nothing left to screw up where ever they’ve just shat their own bed.
The reason why I like Wyoming is that brutal, sub-zero cold with 50MPH winds tends to wipe that smug, self-righteous sneer off their faces after one year.
Yeah, I know about the food and the music I still can’t stand Austin. It’s a shame, too, given the historical stuff there.
I think this post has reinforced the maxim not to read the comboxes….
Seriously, I get it. They aren’t exactly appealing to some of your prurient interests. The 30th comment about how ugly they are gets kind of old.
This isn’t about “rights.” It is about class. You guys haven’t any. Makes it hard to justify taking a superior position, no?
Criticisms of the comments here seem to me to be in the vain of “I am pro-2a, and you guys are hurting the cause I care about with poor behavior.” Which is fully legitimate. Why does everything come “But I have a right to say whatever I want” sort of thing? Yeah and I have a right to call you out on it and criticize it. Freedom of speech also means the freedom to bash your speech.
Those reacting so self-righteously to cowgirlup, you appear to me to be the candied-ass ones.
+1000
Meh, I’m not worried about it. Anybody who wants to endlessly debate with me over their right to be a misogynist… I’m pretty sure I can take them in verbal sparring, or just ignore them once I’ve said my piece. I have no idea why this is the hill some want to die on. On the upside, there has been some really good discussion that I’ve appreciated.
“The women continued to remain topless in front of innocent children …”
Who have probably see nipples before, to be fair…
Well, that certainly qualifies as “more boobs”.
At the risk of raising cowgirl’s ire,
They put themselves out there and if some of our guys or gals choose to be a little course in their comments so be it. Is it a condemnation of all women? No. There are certainly more course comments about gun owners on any anti-gun facebook page, newspaper site or blog. They won’t debate us, yet in less time it takes to go get a beer out of the frig, there is a comment about size and making up for short comings.
Our guys are a lot more reserved and even here TTAG moderates over the top comments, but doesn’t stop anti-gun posters.
So don’t take this as some sort of heman woman haters club of gun guys. The moms put themselves out there. And now we get to poke fun at them and let off a little of the pent up frustration of the way they treat us.
With that in mind;
it looks like support for gun control is sagging.
They may wish to repeal the law of gravity.
Gives a whole new meaning to keep and bare
The bigger problem is the debate over what these women look like has driven the narrative.
The discussion is not about them protesting RKBA or calling people ‘Aryan’ and worse just for owning / carrying guns.
The behavior of these women is disgusting, and not because they took their shirts off. It’s disgusting for FAR MORE than that, and that is being ignored.
They are winning this round because our guys are only focused on boobs and skin-deep beauty (or their perception of the lack of it).
Where’s the ire over this part of the story:
“they followed us into a small coffee shop and called us the Aryan Brotherhood. They continually used terms like white pride and white power. Their allegations are obvious nonsense as we not only have many African American members in our group, but also on our walk today.”
You won’t raise my ire discussing reasonably with me, whether we agree or not.
I agree these women have encouraged this kind of feedback by doing such attenion-seeking off-topic protesting. At the same time, you wouldn’t call black people who you really don’t like the N word just because you really don’t like those specific black people. You’d recognize it was racist even if you didn’t say it about the people you’d deemed the “good black people” (which really, it’s sort of racist dividing black people up into the bad black people and the good black people.. presumably the good ones are the ones who agree with you and whatever white people want.)
For some reason men don’t seem to get this when it comes to women. Do you have a right to be frustrated with these women? Definitely. I’m frustrated with them. I’m pissed off that they often claim to be for “women’s rights” but don’t support my right to equalize power to defend myself from a physically stronger aggressor. But I’m not going to start attacking their bodies. Because IMO that’s douche-y and sexist. And this isn’t a locker room. As has been pointed out a few times by me and a couple of others.
@cowgirlup:
There’s another logical fallacy at play here. Let’s suppose that the “protesters” had included some attractive women. Would the responses have been any different? Would they have been taken any more seriously for the attractiveness of what they chose to bare? What if some of the “protesters” had been males? Would the responses have been any different? Whether attractive or unattractive? Well-endowed or not (cue the barrel-length and packing-heat jokes…)?
The point is: going topless/naked as a form of protest, whether attractive or otherwise, is a tacit admission of a lack of logical argument. Those responding are not being critical of women for choosing to go topless when unattractive; they are being critical of using nudity to argue for gun control.
Are the responses crude and childish? Yes.
Are the responses indicative of general misogyny directed at all women? Absolutely not.
Chip,
I agree with most of your points except about the misogyny part. I’m sorry but you don’t get certain free passes to make gendered slurs against women. Just like you can’t just use the N word on a black person who for whatever reason you’ve decided “has it coming”.
And if the women had been hot, those same men who said the shitty things about these women who didn’t get the approval of their boners would instead be objectifying them and making nasty comments about their bangability. And in both cases it’s shitty disrespect toward women. I’m happy to agree to disagree with you about it. I can’t “make” you see my side, but shitty behavior is shitty behavior and I don’t want anything to do with men who behave like this.
It’s also hurting our cause when the men in the 2A movement sit by and let this shit go on and say it’s “childish but harmless” or “boys with be boys” or whatever other nonsense you want to use to excuse alienating women with gendered slurs.
@cowgirlup:
The main point of our disagreement seems to be that the childish rhetoric displayed in the comments here, while gender-specific, are not targeted at everyone of that specific gender.
Ultimately, we’re splitting hairs here. I choose not to hurl such insults because I was taught that it is inappropriate, because it is disrespectful to the person being insulted, period – not because the person is some specific demographic, but because it is wrong to insult any person.
Insulting a man for being fat, or bald, or [insert male-directed insult here] is wrong – not because such insults would be directed at all men everywhere, but because insulting itself is inherently wrong. The same principle applies here.
But the deeper point is: the women intentionally invited the insult/objectification as a distraction from their lack of logical argument. The insults in this comments thread aren’t flying for any reason other than the women chose to replace logical argumentation with nudity. (Unless you can show me where these commenters have made similar insults at the MDA women when fully clothed? It’s not like the physical attributes being insulted here aren’t apparent when clothed.)
That’s why it really doesn’t bother me that much. Humans have a tendency to resort to our base instincts – which unfortunately happen to be quite piggish when criticizing the opposite gender: men and women alike. If this display of piggishness had represented a lost opportunity to advance our cause, then I’d be right there with you, admonishing it. But there was nothing to be won here.
Chip, you said: “while gender-specific, are not targeted at EVERYONE of that gender.”
To me that’s the same thing as: “that comment, while a racial slur isn’t targeted at all black people.”
I get that we apparently don’t see this as the same thing, but that’s how I see it and that’s why it bothers me so much. It just makes me feel like men will only be nice to me/respect me as long as I toe whatever line of behavior they’ve drawn in the sand, and the second I step outside of it, I’m on the chopping block for their gendered slurs.
I definitely think this is the disconnect between us. I don’t expect that I can make you agree with me, but I at least appreciate that you don’t hurl such insults. I also agree that it’s disrespectful to the person being insulted, period and it’s a below the belt blow.
I think the piggishness just keeps this place a boys club and pushes women away from involvement outside of lurking. I also think it’s not winning the hearts and minds of women. I frankly don’t want to be around men who talk like this about women, particularly doing it in front of women. This isn’t a locker room.
Cowgirl(everyone else as well),
I thought quite a bit on this subject last night and I don’t like to see mommy and daddy fight so I’d like to add a few things that may add some different perspectives.
I’d like to re-frame part of this a bit based on one comment Chip made…
“What if some of the “protesters” had been males? Would the responses have been any different? Whether attractive or unattractive? Well-endowed or not (cue the barrel-length and packing-heat jokes…)”
If, for sake of argument, the MDA protestors had included a nude man with a tiny dong and a beer gut I can only imagine how many pages of insults would be directed at the spectacle he created. While it’s possible to verify, I’d also be willing to bet hard earned money that the “tiny member” slurs would far outnumber the “saggy booby” slurs.
If you pop your head up out of the trenches during warfare it becomes a target. In this instance I see it as the same thing, THEY made their boobs the target here. Very few of the snide comments I’ve seen here have strayed away from the boobies in question so it seems like less of an issue to me. The only guilt I’d justifiably assign to those comments would be for hitting the easy targets(low hanging fruit?) instead of fighting the bigger issue.
For you it seems much more personal as part of a much larger issue. I can see why that could be the case but honestly, as a man, I could NEVER fully comprehend/understand your perspective as a woman on the issue. To me, as a man, a single saggy booby joke aimed at a target THEY created for me is only aimed at that specific target. I can only speak for myself here but true misogyny in this day and age is not only outlandish but laughable and I believe the overwhelming majority of men know it as well. It’s when the intent is lost and people see offense where none was meant that things get dicey(anonymity strikes again).
Some faux misogyny may actually escape my lips from time too time as a joke. My girlfriend knows that when she tells me to go “build something” or do “man stuff” so she can get some peace and quiet to read I may very well come back with a comment about how quiet it is in the kitchen….. There is no nefarious intent there, no hurtful sentiment, only good natured ribbing about the outlandishness of “man stuff” vs “woman stuff”. Between her and I there is no anonymity, no shrouded intent and no animus meant on either side so there is no hurt or offense. I believe there is also a time and place for this type of offhanded social commentary and only with people who share and understand your own values on the subject. Some of the regular commentors on here may feel that familiarity toward this group(I do at times) and say things that to others might seem offensive because the true intent was misread. Were I to have the same dialog above with a stranger I could only(rightfully so) expect that stranger to loose their F****ng mind and verbally rip my head off but with a friend I expect no a$$ ripping.
To put it in perspective… My girlfriend(non-posessive form!) is a highly educated woman with multiple degrees, a stable career and a somewhat liberal political lean on several key issues(NOT gun control). She’s one of the strongest women I know and is a rabid supporter of advancing women’s rights. That being said, if I thought for a single millisecond that she would misunderstand my intent and be hurt in the slightest by a comment it would never leave my mouth but it DOES happen from time to time. It doesn’t usually include misogyny in any way but the result is the same, one of us takes offense because of misunderstood intent or reading too much into a simple issue. The difference between here(the intrawebz) and there is that the offender sees IMMEDIATELY what happened and can rectify the misconception by explaining the true intent.
OR (just like on here)
The offended gets angry(capital GRRRR!), we argue and nothing gets solved until later when cooler heads prevail.
Maybe(probably) the “guys club” mentality around here needs to be less prevalent from time to time. I’ll agree to that and try on my part but the overall connectedness and familiarity of the “people of the gun” may also be partially to blame for some of the dust-ups on here. That connection is one thing I wouldn’t even attempt to change, I believe it’s one of our greatest assets in this fight.
I’d also like to point out to the room a few of the other assets we have around here… Kiersten, Peaches, Cowgirl and MommaLiberty(and others) are as close to a women’s outreach program as we’re likely to see around here. They can offer perspectives as women that some of us couldn’t possibly understand that may help us in this fight. I’m not saying that anyone should silence your opinions or stifle your arguments but at least keep in mind that the overtly rude comments we see from time to time can make you(and the rest of us) look like a GIANT A$$! My mom always told me to THINK before I opened my mouth, maybe we should apply that logic to typing as well.
Hey Shaun,
Thanks for this! I think you make a lot of good points. I’m also, like your girlfriend, very for advancing women’s rights. I’m pro-choice and pro-gun. (Basically, I’m pro-freedom and not trying to use the law to micromanage everyone when life is nuanced.)
The issue is that there ARE a lot of men who are extremely misogynistic and much of that misogyny does harm women. (And when men engage in and excuse casual misogyny, it’s hard to know who hates women and who just said something without thinking about how it would make someone else feel.)
The other day I heard a story about an investor who told a woman in tech that he didn’t invest in women because they don’t think linearly (AFTER he’d agreed to [and DID] listen to her pitch. I question his assumption that because he has a penis he’s a great thinker, given that he decided to waste both of their time listening to a pitch he wasn’t going to invest in because… oh noes… vagina! Maybe he just wanted to kill an hour staring at her boobs.) And that’s on the milder scale of what goes on.
So, you’re right, to me it is a much larger issue of social justice and being treated like a person. But I also understand the other side of it and where you’re coming from. I think largely that two different languages are being spoken here, but, like you said… it’s kind of important that you guys also hear female perspectives. And all the ladies aren’t going to agree either. Mamaliberty didn’t agree with me on this stuff (which is her right), and I’m SURE Mina would not agree with me on many things. Though we might agree on other things.
I don’t want to control people’s speech by law, moderation, or ban. I’m all for free speech. But part of that is being able to actually speak up on both sides of things and challenge and discuss things. It’s not one side just being able to be offensive while the other side isn’t allowed to say anything back. So while I support men’s “right” to say douche-y stuff, I support my own right and the right of others to say “why this is hurtful and also not helpful to what we’re trying to do here.”
I don’t think I’m going to reach a real dyed-in-the-wool misogynist. I think I MIGHT reach someone who isn’t a misogynist but just didn’t think. And I think it’s important that the men who don’t think it’s appropriate in certain venues (or at all), speak up, because there were times in this thread where someone would basically act like I was hysterical or on my period, and then a dude would say “hey I agree with her and I’m a dude.” Nobody picked on the dude. (Though I don’t feel “picked on”, I absolutely can hold my own in a war of words, no question. You want to escalate to verbal sparring, I’ll bring it.)
I didn’t pick on any individual because really it was a “death by a thousand papercuts” situation, and there is no reason to call people out personally. The only time it got personal was when someone engaged me directly and their lead in was how I was hysterical or should just suck it up or men will be men or whatever.
It wasn’t like it was just “one comment”, and I’m not trying to be the thought police anyway. I was just asking for a little consideration and for men to let their better angels rule them. The only people I had an actual “issue” with were those who doubled down on their right to be jackasses to or about women. (But I’d still engage respectfully with them if they changed their own tone with me.)
And I don’t understand someone who fights so hard for the right to be a jerk. And then all the “well, men are pigs, sweetheart” sentiment. Really?!?!?! To me that’s saying: “Men have all this testosterone stuff and we really just have no self control when around women. So we’re going to say some nasty stuff because we can’t help it.”
Well if you can’t help THAT, then why should I trust you or think you can “help it” if a woman proves to be so “hot” that you feel you just have to throw her down and have your way with her. (Note, all my “you” here is not “you” personally but the general third person you. It’s clear that YOU aren’t part of the problem.) Why would any person “on the fence” about gun control ever think that a dude who has said “Men are pigs” and implied you all can’t control yourselves… should own a gun in the first place?
I don’t think we need to be micromanaging who can and can’t have guns. I think anyone who isn’t already a violent felon or straight up provably dangerous mental incompetent should have one and we can sort out any miscreants as they prove themselves not to be deserving of the RKBA. (And logistically those miscreants will mostly be stopped by “good guys with guns”) But that has literally nothing to do with how those on the gun control side will look at men who are waxing on about how they can’t seem to control their piggish instincts. I don’t think it’s completely illogical for those people to think people who can’t control themselves or admit to their mistakes even should have weapons.
It’s a stupid hill to die on. But I totally see your perspective and where you’re coming from as well and appreciate the thought and time you put into this comment and sharing your thoughts on it. And you and your girlfriend sound a lot like me and my husband. He’s definitely not someone you would mistake for some wimpy metrosexual, but he’s the most kind and egalitarian man I know. He supports me, he believes in me. I love the stuffing out of that man.
Do you think they are milking it for all its worth?
It doesn’t look like they have any firm facts
Some here (and they probably don’t know who they are) could benefit from the sage and learned Sgt. Hulka: “Lighten up, Francis.”
What the heck do boobs have to do with banning guns? Are there high capacity assault boobs running around shooting guns? Could it be that these women in MDA have finally run out of more productive attention grabbing tactics and now, as their movement lay dying, the are pullin out the last ditch crazy hippy stuff to try to bring their movement back from the near dead?
Well some of those look like high capacity mammory glands
It’s great for women to speak up on an issue but to protest like this only brings bad publicity to moms against America. I am pro 2A and they are only helping us
Reminds me of how luckless I usually am. If I was reincarnated, and came back as a baby with Dolly Parton being my mother, I probably would have been a “bottle baby”
Well, at least we can keep our protests SFW and kid-friendly — and still get far and away more support and attention than them!
Another sign that MDA is getting more desperate for attention, another major fail
Your twitter handle “tomfreeusa” looks like you want a USA free of Toms. LOL. Sorry, don’t know why that stuck me as funny.
“More boobs, less guns”
Well, where do you expect me to get those boobs from?! Grow them?! Because I haven’t seen any Boob-shops nearby! – and I don’t think me growing a pair of boobs is going to help me much with getting dates!!!
“baring your boobs should be a privilege, not a right. That’s something Shannon may want to communicate in her next membership email. Please. Do it for the children.”
Not just the kids – everybody!!
…I don’t want to be blinded for life!
OMG I have been washing my eyes for the last fifteen minutes trying to remove those cruel and inhumane images showing in this article. Every time I close my eyes those horrible horrible images burned into my brain float behind my closed eye lids. The one showing the female where they more likely get out of bed before she does and the other one looks like she slings them over each shoulder.. uuurrrrpppp….
I don’t have a general problem w nudity however naked women getting up in my face when I have my kids with me. No. That is unacceptable. Cover that shit up. I don’t care if you look like Gisele with 44DDs or are an ugly middle aged skank like this one with flappy flabby splash guards. I have a right for my kid to be out in public and not have see things I don’t think he’s ready to be seeing.
The irony of course being that there are bare breasts in the newspaper in England.
It all boils down to cultural norms, right?
MMMM, titties that look like stretched tube socks half full of flour,yummy.
Seems I can only respond top line. TheBear wins this one hands down. Honorable mention to the passionate and loquacious CowgirlUp who will likely be up all night guarding this thread against the misogynists. Love and respect to you both!
Liberty bichez!!!
LMAO, Andy! +1000 for use of loquacious.
Just getting a post in before TTAG goes all metro.
Too late !
I agree with almost everything Cowgirlup said, as well. Men have no idea how often women keep quiet and tolerate boorish come threatening remarks and actions out of fear it will escalate in work, play or public spaces in general our entire lives. I agree she’s a little verbose, and obviously has way more time to challenge it, or at least has more conviction to confront it head on than most of us do. I hardly ever read all comments on a site. I did here, so I think she and most of the men who engaged offered good discourse. I toughed it out through all of it. It was nice to see men who could engage her on arguments’ sake, and then even see some of them come around to recognizing that the kind of comments that invoked her ire may in fact be a broader social problem. My kudos go out to Shawn specifically.
More related to what this forum is all about, it’s important that some recognize that dividing the supporters of 2A is totally counter-productive to our agenda. So while it feels like a large part of cowgirlup’s comments deviate from the 2A topic, I suggest that they actually go very far to shore up our effort and numbers. Further, if we extrapolate this out to political leanings in general, I think we could all agree that the “war on women” hype that the left are constantly raising to disparage their opponents is pretty effective. And boorish, demeaning comments about women in a forum designed for intellectual discourse to advance political support will do our cause no favors whether it is in relation to 2A or the broader support for freedom in general.
Also, before I sign off, I will say women have never before in the history of the world (to my knowledge) enjoyed a country, and atmosphere that allows us to approach the same standing, with all the rights and privileges as men do as what we currently enjoy here in the US. If you look at many other parts of the world, women continue to be thought of as mere chattel and their destruction and abuse is condoned and institutionalized politically and culturally. There is no other group ever that has been so systematically abused and warred against as women over the course of human history. That’s plain fact. Trust me, I’m not some crazy liberal, man-hating woman. I am a devotee to freedom and limited government. I’m just saying that for women, from birth to grave, institutions and culture set this kind of behavior in motion. Sure, verbiage confronted here is tame relative to physical violence against women other places in the world. But it is not without effect, and I agree we can all do better. And I like a good joke as well as the next person. And I’m not one of those “oh I’m offended” whiney babies, either. Just count me as another women, who I believe akin to cowgirl up, that says hey, let’s engage our brain before we engage our mouths. And I for one appreciate cowgirlup for being brave enough and tenacious enough to call out bad behavior that is harmful to women and our 2A cause in general. BRAVO!
Hey Lee,
I really shouldn’t have spent so much time challenging it (because I really do have other things to do in life, LOL.) And I will totally cop to being too verbose. I definitely have trouble getting my points down to smaller bite-sized pieces. And overall it probably weakens my message because a lot of people see “wall o text” and shut down or think of it as “yelling”. I’m just trying to be clear and explore as many angles as possible. But yeah, as Andy put it a little higher up, I’m loquacious… no doubt! lol.
And I also appreciated the men who engaged with me in a mature way and didn’t just resort to calling me hysterical or telling me to “Take it to tumblr, babe.” Um, how about no?
You said: “More related to what this forum is all about, it’s important that some recognize that dividing the supporters of 2A is totally counter-productive to our agenda.”
THIS! Exactly this. We may still gain more men to the 2A/RKBA side of things, but the most growth potential is in women. Making women feel welcome (as in, not being actively hostile about women. Nobody is saying anybody has to bow down and worship) will go a LONG way in growing numbers even further. And dudes, if you can win the majority of the women on this, you never have to worry about your 2A again. Think tactically.
Thanks! I, too, appreciate all the freedoms and rights women have in this country. We could still do a bit better in how women are treated even here, but it’s orders of magnitude better than a lot of places. Which is part of why 2A is so important to me. It’s a true symbol of my freedom and ability to not live powerless and in fear of what random men might choose to do. (Given the history of the world, I am absolutely in the right to not put any man in my “circle of trust” until he’s proven himself. And even then there is a probationary period.)
Given the history of the treatment of women, it’s hard for me to understand how/why women are voluntarily EVER with men.
That doesn’t mean I “hate all men” it’s just from a stystemic perspective WHY? Holy crap why? Why would men claim to love women and then with such crushing force just dominate the shit out of us with no regard to anything beyond what we can do to please them? It’s just so gross to me. There are a LOT of truly good men out there. My husband and dad and brother are among them. Many have spoken up on this thread either in full support, or engaging me in mature discussion.
I think a lot of men say misguided, hurtful, and thoughtless crap, but a lot of times it isn’t meant maliciously, but really, how do you know the difference between the dude who didn’t think before speaking and the one who drank a gallon of haterade? I feel like a lot of men are sort of blind to the history of men and women and just how bad it really was, and how bad it continues to be in parts of the world. Why would anyone think that what has gone on in the past doesn’t color women’s feelings and fears today, even in places like the US? It does.
A man being more kind and sensitive is not a man losing his manhood. (Nor does it mean you have to be a metrosexual.) I think men who are physically strong/capable but are kind and compassionate are WAY more attractive than men who are cruel or thoughtless assholes.
Facebook and Twitter shut down again?
I read through most of your novel, cowgirl. You didn’t sway me one bit. You don’t make a compelling argument based on your arbitrary emotions. You just come off like a lunatic. Though you’ve done a great job attracting the lonely men on here who no doubt can bask in the fuzzy feeling of arguing/agreeing with a so called feminist in order to reaffirm their own bias perspective. All the while, concluding their correspondence lead to any meaningful insight into the nature of humanity and sexual relations. Though it did not. What a waste of time……
Well, thank you for your non-feedback. My emotions are no more “arbitrary” than anybody else’s. (And some of the men who decided I was a big whiny baby for not sitting and “taking it” when men said misogynistic bullshit seemed PLENTY emotional to me. I would say a couple of them were quite hysterical.) I use a lot of words, you’ll get no argument from me there, but using a lot of words is hardly grounds for being labeled a “lunatic”. Calling someone a lunatic for simply having a different opinion than you about something is a sign of somebody with no argument. Your post was completely content free. But thanks for sharing, I guess.
If you thought my comments were really ineffective and were only appreciated by “lonely men” (guess you didn’t notice the other women, some who are regular posters here, or the dudes who HAVE female companionship already), then you wouldn’t have bothered reading any of them or replying to me. The fact that you felt the deep and abiding need to make very sure I knew that you thought I was a lunatic, just in case I had the mistaken notion that the misogynists were going to all leave the dark side… tells me everything I need to know.
Have a good day.
Well, this sure left me with a few thoughts…
1. They are in Austin, eh? So was this really a protest or were they just on their way to Hippy Hollow (if that beach still exists)?
2. Well, it looks like MDA and OCT do have something in common.
3. And since nobody has noted the obvious… This puts a whole new take on Concealed Carry. Will there be a resulting Starbucks or Chipotle ban?
Shannon says these people have nothing to do with MDA. One of the bare breasted women confirms this.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/28/watch-texas-open-carry-advocates-fume-after-skanky-topless-libtards-disrupt-pro-gun-rally/
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