Protest of AZ immigration laws (courtesy ktar.com)

Gun control advocates talk about “easy access to guns.” They don’t want to deny guns to law-abiding Americans. Just certain types of guns. And ammunition magazines. I mean, just “bad guys.” And mentally ill people. How do you make the distinction? Background checks! If everyone who wanted to purchase a gun had to go through a background check, only the good guys would get the guns. Wrong. But anyway . . .

What document do you suppose Uncle Sam requires for these federal background checks? The same document the courts (via Uncle Sam) are forcing Arizona to make available to illegal immigrants shielded from deportation by Executive Order: a driver’s license.

Hello? A driver’s license in the hands of a non-American citizen allows them to purchase a firearm. Which means the federal push to give so-called dreamers and “undocumented Americans” opens the floodgates for illegal sales/straw purchases. Here’s the AP story . . .

An appeals court sided with advocates for young immigrants who argued that Arizona’s policy of denying them driver’s licenses even though they had work permits under an Obama administration policy violated their equal protection rights.

The ruling Monday by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals marked a victory for immigrant rights advocates who argued the young immigrants were harmed by unequal treatment by the state.

The appeals court agreed on that issue and said the advocates also showed a likelihood that the immigrants would be harmed by the state’s denial . . .

The governor’s attorneys said the driver’s license policy grew out of concerns over the liability of giving licenses to people who aren’t authorized to be in the country and reducing the risk of licenses being used to improperly access public benefits.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think anyone – anyone – should have to produce any ID to purchase, carry or keep any firearm in the United States. But I do think that the antis’ hypocrisy on gun control is a disgrace that needs to be highlighted at every turn. And so I have.

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170 COMMENTS

  1. Why shouldn’t illegals be allowed to buy guns? We let them prepare our food, take care of our children, and build our houses. I can’t see how giving them guns will let them do any more damage.

    • If America is yours to give away, it’s mine to take-away from you. TERMS, J.M. Thomas R., 2012

    • They should be able to buy guns though. They should just have to do it in a “legal” manner, and that would be fast and furiously, illegally through straw-purchase sanctioned by the ATF under the careful, watchful eye of the current admin.

    • If they’re here illegally, then they’re by definition fugitives from the law. Fugitives forfeit their gun rights. Once they’ve crossed the threshold into major criminality like that, they’re disqualified.

      Moreover, they don’t have permanent ties to this country. When it goes bad, they scamper back across the border, just like they do when their uninsured hoopties crash into someone’s car.

        • “Mere presence in a country is “major criminality”? Dude”

          Well, countries do have rules about foreigners coming in. Try just wandering into France, for example, without a passport.

        • Rich, I just want to confirm something here. Are you referring to France as a success story?

          • “Rich, I just want to confirm something here. Are you referring to France as a success story?”

            No, I picked France out of the air as an example. Substitute anything from Albania to Zambia, the same argument applies, which is that a sovereign nation has a right to determine who enters, much like you have the right to determine who enters your house.

            Somebody asked, “OK, so if the illegal aliens are criminals, what was their crime?” I flippantly quipped “trespassing,” But I’m pretty sure that entering a country without the permission of the ones who run that country breaks some kind of law.

            For the last five or ten years, Libertarians and sane conservatives have been saying on immigration, Just enforce the laws we already have!

            • You can bar people from entering your house because it’s your private property. Are you saying that a country is the collective property of its citizens? That’s awfully collectivist of you 😉

              • You mean, the same guy who writes the law on your behalf? 🙂

                It’s pretty funny. I don’t ever see such respect for law here when it comes to guns. Everyone is talking about how the laws are stupid, unjust, unconstitutional etc, jury nullification and all that.

                Yet here it’s dura lex, sed lex. Hmm…

                As a libertarian, think about it from an ideological perspective. If you own a patch of land, why should there be someone out there saying that you can’t sell it to a foreigner, or can’t let said foreigner travel through it or settle on it?

              • OK, full disclosure – I’m a Radical Libertarian Loon and a 2A absolutist, but I really don’t have any particular “stand” on the immigration issue. I’m against welfare parasites, no matter where they come from, and as long as a person can understand what I’m talking about and they can speak understandable American English, what does it really matter where they came from? Actually I was kind of almost surprised by the “Official” Libertarian Party stand on immigration: http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration – I agree we need somebody to pick the strawberries and dig ditches; as far as encountering rude people in the grocery store, there are rude people everywhere.

                I guess my stand on immigration is basically, “enforce the laws we have,” Like that one stand-up comic said, “Yeah, we welcome visitors and their tourism dollars, but at least sign the guestbook!”

              • Out of curiosity – do you know what laws you guys have? i.e. if a person wants to immigrate to the US legally, what it actually takes?

                One thing that I have found in personal experience when talking to Americans about immigration is that most of them are utterly clueless about how the existing system actually works. In fact, most think it’s basically easy and everyone is welcome, so long as you’re not a criminal or something like that.

                I’ve been living and working in US for 3.5 years now (all legal, naturally). I’ve applied for my green card, but it’s still 4 years away, because that’s how long it takes for the processing centers to get to my application. Funny, it only took me a year to get the NFA tax stamp for my silencer – by the time I get my green card, I’ll also have a couple more SBRs 🙂 The associated fees are also very considerable, though in my case I’m lucky to have an employer that largely covers them, because they want to keep me working for them for the foreseeable future.

    • a criminal is not allowed to have a gun. so why should they? are they not here illegally? thats means they broke our laws to be here. hell no they dont deserve a DL or anything for that matter

      • And their crime is… what exactly? jumping over a fence? We talk about pre crime and victimless crime all the time, so who is the victim here? If you’re saying that they’re here to pay no taxes and receive government aid, unless every single one of them is doing that then instead of calling all of them criminals we should go after the ones specifically exploiting the system. So instead of frothing and screaming ‘DEY TOOK AR JARBS!’ you might want to think for a minute. We scream day and night about how our scary guns and big magazines hurt no one but somehow jumping a fence makes you a hitman.

        • Say, my house isn’t very nice. In fact, it’s rather shabby. I also don’t have a job. I want to move into your house. Yes, I know that you don’t know me, but I have needs, too. I won’t be a problem. I will only use the back door, the back bedroom, the bathroom, and part of the kitchen when you aren’t using it. I will also use your mailbox, just a tiny bit, and maybe your driveway, and your septic system, and your water, and maybe a little of the food from your refrigerator and cupboards. I’m sure you won’t mind my using your dishes, and your towels, and a little of your soap and toothpaste. I know you won’t miss the tiny amount of money that I cost, as you have more than enough.
          Would you mind driving me to the store, and the clinic, and to work, if you have a moment? If not, can I use your car, and your gas? Can I use your Social Security Number, by the way? Otherwise, I can’t get a job to get money to send to my family in another country instead of paying you back for what I need.

          No, the analogy is not far-fetched; It is precisely what an illegal alien does to exist. If you would not agree to this kind of trespass in your own home, you should not agree to it for your country.

        • That is the single most delusional fantasy I think I have read on the subject. It is so far from reality I am genuinely wondering if we live in the same country.

          I guess I should point out at this time that I actually live in Arizona. I cannot recall one time I have ever been inconvenienced in any way by illegal immigration, either directly or indirectly.

        • @Vhyrus: “I guess I should point out at this time that I actually live in Arizona. I cannot recall one time I have ever been inconvenienced in any way by illegal immigration, either directly or indirectly.”

          You are either lying and never lived in AZ or never payed attention.

          Take your pick.

        • Says the guy who’s identity hasn’t been used by an illegal, or has had a hit-n-run on his vehicle by an illegal, or has been threatened by illegals subletting apartments illegally, or has been stiffed on services provided to an illegal because denying them service is illegal. You don’t have to live in Arizona, this happens in the Midwest too. Illegal immigration is not just a border state problem.

    • Who’s ‘we’? Do you have a frog in your pocket? ‘We’ don’t allow illegal aliens to do any such things; ‘We’, through our Congress and Senate, have enacted strict, good laws prohibiting illegal aliens from working in this country without their employers facing severe financial penalties and possible incarceration. ‘We’ also have laws against illegal immigrants getting jobs, using false SSNs, and even remaining in this country in the first place. Now, if you mean ‘we’ as in the corrupt regime currently in power, who doesn’t enforce the strict, good laws regarding illegal immigrants working, and even remaining in this country, I REALLY don’t belong to that ‘we’ of which you speak. Maybe you do. But don’t lump ‘me’ into ‘we.’

      Who’s ‘we’?

      • If you live or work in a building built in the last 40 years or eat food, you are in fact the ‘we’.

        • Oh, HELL no! I don’t ‘let’ anybody do anything illegal if I have the power to stop it. If you are saying that I am an unwilling accomplice in that I have no say in the matter, that the illegitimate regime in power does illegal things in my name and permits illegality to proceed without let or hindrance because it refuses to enforce laws, I can agree with that. But, I’m still not ‘we.’

        • So you check to make sure all the vegetables you buy were picked by documented legal workers being paid minimum wage, that the cooks and bus boys in the restaraunts you frequent all have their green cards, that the workers who built your house were all legit, and that the ones doing the landscaping at the community pool are all here legally?

          Or are you just benefitting from cheap labor while bitching about like everyone else?

        • I don’t know about where you live, by all the bus boys and girls and waiters are local native young people and not illegals aliens. I perform my own landscaping and pool upkeep because I am cheap and refuse to hire any company that uses illegals.

        • I picked veggies and sold them at the farmers market for 10 years. All my workers were legal locals.

          We rely on the government to regulate what we give them power to. That includes immigration and the guest worker program. If the people were illegal picking the veggies that I didn’t grow myself then its on the government’s watch this happened and it should be fixed. Just because someone broke the law along the way doesn’t mean I am complicit in their actions if I am somewhere in the commerce chain.

    • My assumption is that he means in private sales. I believe you must show ID in most states or by federal law to prove you’re a resident of that state. I think.

      • Which actually happens in about 5% of private sales. Let’s not kid ourselves, almost no one ever checks that.

    • Illegals would have to lie when completing a 4473 they submit for any firearm purchase.

      • “HAHA, NICS catching things.”

        Even if NICS did catch someone, I’ve heard that the government has better things to do than prosecute 4473 violations…. but we need more of them!!!!

  3. how about their hypocrisy on ID in general? To wit:

    Requiring ID to vote? Excessive. Designed to suppress voting. Unacceptable in such a civilized nation. No evidence that it will address any of the known problems with voting.

    Adding yet more requirements to buying a gun? Necessary. No trouble at all. Only, perhaps, an inconvenience to citizens and well worth it to prevent such a serious right from being exercised lightly or abused.

    Hey there Orwell! Doublethink is apparently doing just fine.

    • Well, when democracy dies, gun owners still have a vote (or some such bumper sticker I saw in the ’90s) 😉

    • Requiring an ID to vote is, indeed, suppressive when that ID is non-free. It’s true that most other Western countries do require IDs to vote – even the most “socialist” ones – but they also issue those IDs to all citizens at no extra cost and with minimal hassle.

      • ID’s are not expensive, if they were there would be a lot less people on welfare and other benefit programs (since you need ID to enroll in those)

        • It doesn’t matter how expensive or not expensive they are. If an ID is required to exercise basic citizenship rights, then it should be free.

          (Yes, I also think that charging CCL fees is unconstitutional for the same reason – because it denies the right to keep and bear arms to those not able to afford them.)

  4. I’m going to go ahead and use this as an example of the overarching failure of logic behind all forms of prohibition. Make something hard to do legally, be it own guns or migrate across a border, and people will do it illegally. Why neither side can consistently apply this logic is beyond me. Here’s my solution to illegal immigration – make it f*cking legal.

    No, no, I know that won’t work. After all, ‘illegal immigration’ opponents are for legal immigration like Mayors Against Illegal Guns respects the 2nd amendment.

    • The simple fact is that this country survives on cheap labor provided by illegal immigration. Our economy would damn near collapse without all the under the table labor in agriculture, construction, food service, etc. That’s the real purpose of the drug war and fast & furious. We need a destabilized border in order to ensure a constant flow of labor. The fact that it allows .gov to write blank checks to itself is just a nice byproduct.

      • You can have cheap labor and goods without borders. Look at China. I agree the drug war is a disaster, and we can thank it for most of the issues at the border.

        • . . . and reporting back to the same gate every evening and morning, or to a secure compound that they cannot leave during the hours they aren’t actively working. And pay them in a unique, non-negotiable scrip that can only be exchanged at government installations for personal food, clothing, and medical care so that nothing of actual value leaves this country to be sent to another one. Sounds like a great idea! Pretty soon, though, on that basis either somebody invents a machine to do the work and thus do away with the helot labour, or the wages rise to the point where US citizens’ll be willing to do the job. Pretty soon, no more migrant labour.

          After all, it doesn’t take an illegal alien to pump my septic tank; A real US citizen does that, and for a darn’ good wage, no matter how smelly it is. As such, it shouldn’t take an illegal immigrant, or a legal migrant worker for that matter, to pick my broccoli. I HATE broccoli. I would pay a US citizen a small amount NOT to pick broccoli. I can’t think of one job that a migrant worker does now for a low wage that, should the wage be raised, a US citizen wouldn’t do. Raise the wage, stop coddling both Big Business and the Spoiled American Consumer, and the migrant problem disappears overnight.

        • What if the US citizen is an ex-migrant worker?

          If the only problem you have is their citizenship status, then just make them all citizens, problem solved.

          • There’s the problem of welfare and free ER care and all that benefits crap that kind of sticks in my craw, but there shouldn’t be welfare for anybody – the truly needy can get help from private charities.

    • For reasons that should be obvious, we cannot simply have open borders.

      That doesn’t mean our current system is great. It’s very bad. I agree with making immigration easier, but there will always be limits. One problem with the current system is there is no hope for a certain class of people. If you are not educated with a certain degree field and already middle class or close to it in your home country then you are probably not getting in. That’s a problem and it’s something the GOP promised to address but never has.

      The flip side is, we cannot open the borders. For a country that is supposedly hated, we always have many more requests for visas every year. The rest of the world would love to come to America, but we have an obligation to take care of our current citizens before the rest of the world. No other country would argue with this logic, but we can’t seem to get it ourselves.

      • I’m not advocating for open borders, we simply need a streamlined process. The current system is woefully complex and makes it almost impossible to migrate here legally, temporarily or permanently. It makes it hard to work here legally. If we at least acknowledged that the real problem is crime and abuse of social programs we could begin addressing them rather than simply disparaging those awful illegals.

        • The current system is woefully complex and makes it almost impossible to migrate here legally, temporarily or permanently.

          Funny, it seems to have worked for a century or more pretty well. Ask any of the tens of millions of legal immigrants that have become naturalized citizens using the process. And coming from conditions that make Mexico and Central America look like Paradise in comparison.

          Sorry, my parents, brother and I aren’t buying “fixing” it.

        • Jus, the current system wasn’t in place 50 years ago. And if you’re looking a century ago, there was no such thing as “visa” – as an immigrant, you came to the country and settled where you damn well please. Pay taxes for a couple years, and you could apply for citizenship.

          Did that work? Yes, it did, actually. But somehow I think that’s not what you have in mind.

        • There were quotas then, and ill immigrants were simply turned back. Unlike what’s happening today. Would you like some TB when your lawn is cut? It’s free. Can’t happen to you? Then: Make your own way somewhere, get a job. Now: Get flown to an inland city, get welfare.

          Somehow it doesn’t seem right that that my parents paid their own freight while I get to support the current influx.

          • The only quota that was there 100 years ago, was for Chinese (aka the “Yellow Peril” – because, you know, we can’t have them come into our country, cook their disgusting food on our streets, grope our girls, and steal our jobs – sound familiar?). There were no quotas at all 150 years ago.

        • @ int19h: Chinese were the only race of people explicitly barred to migrate legally at any point in time in the history of the U.S. (that I can find), but the law was the law, and until it was overturned, the Government wasn’t going to let masses of Chinese illegals come in. Also, the U.S. has a history of setting/restricting quotas from different countries and regions, which were specifically laid out in 1924. Laws that defined and granted naturalized citizenship have been around since even 1790.

          Ironically, allowing migrants to come into an area, pay taxes, buy property, while keeping their own customs and language with virtually no ties to the host government is the catalyst to how Mexico lost Texas. I don’t believe they have forgotten that either.

          • The original laws defining & granting citizenship were based on state citizenship – i.e. if a state would grant you citizenship, that would automatically translate to US citizenship, provided certain minimum residency obligations were met. It made sense originally since a country was meant as a Union between states, and most rights and obligations was on state level. States, meanwhile, weren’t really bothered with the notion of more people becoming citizens, and most state laws granted their citizenship to anyone who would apply and could demonstrate that they were residing in the state for a specific period of time, ranging from 6 months to 2 years. Then also, they didn’t restrict people from coming and going in general, so you didn’t have to be a citizen to cross the border in the first place.

            Regarding barring races, it’s not entirely correct. For starters, of course, “Chinese” is not a race, it’s an ethnicity. And they were no the only ones restricted. The original Naturalization Act of 1790 restricted naturalization to white people. In 1870 that was expanded to cover Africans, but Asians were still excluded. The Immigration Act of 1924, which you’ve referenced – the one that established a quota system – has also barred specific countries of origin (effectively barring specific ethnicities), including e.g. Japan, China and India. Note that the original requirement for whites and Africans only was also still in place, and while it wasn’t enforced for a long time, the rise of racialist eugenics in 1920s led to its active enforcement – there were a number of naturalized Indians (as in, from India) who were stripped of their citizenship retroactively, sometimes after decades of acquiring it, as they were deemed “not white”.

            It wasn’t until 1952 that US removed all restrictions on race and ethnicity from its immigration laws.

  5. If illegals actually wanted to or did pay income tax, I’d be much more supportive of their rights. As it is, illegals disproportionately use social services, pay little or no taxes, and are over-represented in crime. They are also going to be the next wave of statist voters asking for government handouts. You’ll find significant overlap between “immigrant friendly” and “2A” unfriendly.

    I think AZ should tell the Feds to pound sand.

    • I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Most illegals come from countries with failed gun control policies. They know what it is like to live under the thumb of murderous cartels and corrupt police with no way of defending themselves. Also, quite a few illegals come here simply to work. They didn’t risk their lives and travel thousands of miles simply to sit on their ass and watch TV. They need money, enough to get their families over the border as well, which takes a job.

      • My impression is that minority legislators tend to be more anti-gun than average, whatever the attitude of the communities they represent. I suspect the two are actually aligned.

      • “Get their families over the border as well” That may be one of the problems! It’s usually not a mother and her child, it’s sometimes a mother and her five or six kids. And of course they will be paying no taxes, rather, collecting them. And guess who then will be supporting them?

        One reason I am really against illegal immigration is that I went through all the paper work required, plus two trips to a US congressman’s office, and paid required fees, and had to wait ten months to get my LEGAL wife over here.

        After all that, do you thing I want to give handouts to somebody who just walks across the border, and starts demanding most of the benefits that US citizens have.

        And just in case your wondering, my wife studied hard, and completed required paperwork, submitted required documents, and fees, and became a United States citizen!

        • Vhyrus,
          I don’t remember, it’s been over 24 years. And yes I know some of the illegals probably paid more than I did, to their coyote’s, but to what does that entitle them to in the US? Coyote’s are illegal too!

        • Both my Parents migrated from China (Hong Kong) and I have a good friend who migrated from Slovakia when he was a teenager. If I remember correctly, it took them both close to a decade to get their citizenship and several thousand dollars in fees. I forgot the exact amount they quoted.

          For my friend, it actually took him a little longer than usual because the government lost his initial paperwork and he had to scramble to get extensions.

          • Regarding Mexico and the loss of Texas – immigration of white Anglos to that territory was not the trigger for its laws, but rather the set-up. The trigger was the Mexican government trying to force Catholicism – the state religion – on those white settlers.

    • As a legal migrant I’d be more supportive of illegals if they returned to their country of origin, and applied to come here like everyone else. I don’t believe that people who willfully break the law should get preferential treatment.

        • My wife and I have jumped through every hoop, complied with every request, signed affidavits, attended interviews, underwent a medical examination, attended an interview, and provided all the information that we were required to. Our reward is more paperwork, yet more waiting, more fees, and absolutely no public assistance (if it was needed) for 10 years.

        • His point is that legal immigration is a massive pain in the ass. It’s like the reverse of everything you guys complain about illegals – we pay taxes, including social security taxes (I dare say that, with my six figure salary, I pay more than most citizens where I live), yet we don’t get a cent out of welfare programs because we don’t qualify for them. If I go buy a gun, I have to prove to the feds that I have a “valid reason” to own one, and then a separate license from my state (yes, for mere possession, not just carrying). And all that crap can last for over a decade.

          Yes, we’re still here, because of career opportunities. It doesn’t mean that the system isn’t obviously messed up.

          And yes, it also means that it’s kinda annoying when people just cross the border and then get amnesty – and the ability to drag their entire family with them in – after a couple of years, when you have been waiting for twice as much and with more waiting to come. But at the same time you get to understand why those people crossed the border… with the time and the money that has to be expended on the legal track, most of them could never have afforded it.

      • As a legal immigrant, I can’t help but note that the legal immigration route is extremely complicated, drawn-out and expensive, and short of family immigration route, very few people have the means to take it. So most of these guys who are trying to get here illegally are not trying to “short circuit” the system and do it sooner… it’s literally their only chance to immigrate. Given that, in many cases, the countries they are coming from are starting to resemble war zones, I can’t fault them for that.

        • I can. They should stay in their own countries and try to make them more like ours (well, maybe not like ours is NOW, but what it was supposed to be). Why is it that banana republics are always falling prey to small groups of dedicated, armed revolutionaries who are willing to be ruthless in getting what they want, which is either a left-wing Marxist hellhole or a right-wing dictatorship, but never fall prey to other small groups of dedicated, armed revolutionaries willing to be ruthless in getting what THEY want, that is, fair and open representative republics? Could it be that people of 3rd-World Hellholes get just exactly the governments that they deserve?

          • But why? You can’t put a moral obligation on them – in most cases, they grew up in countries that already are shitholes, and their children certainly did. The only difference between them and you (or any other American citizen) is that they had the misfortune to be born on the wrong – the messy – side of the border.

            You might claim that if you were in their place, you’d stand up and fight. Fair enough, but look around and tell me how many of Americans would do the same, and how many would try to do the same thing as these guys – run somewhere else where they have a chance for a better life through hard work (but no requirement to self-sacrifice). Especially those that have families.

            The majority of people in all countries really just want stability, and US is no exception. The basic knowledge that you can get a job today and it’ll still be there tomorrow, that you’ll get your paycheck at the end of the month and there are stores that will sell you what you need for it, and that you won’t get robbed while walking to said stores – that kind of thing. At the same time, fighting for this kind of thing is not something that those same people would generally do, because it means sacrificing their personal stability (not just for themselves, but also for their family) here and now for a very slim chance of getting it sometime far in the future. That’s why you see “small groups of dedicated, armed revolutionaries” battle it out while populace at large is silent – because those small groups have large-scale political ideas and goals that they’re willing to die for. John Doe, not so much.

            But it doesn’t mean that John Doe can’t be a useful member of the society. He’s a good workhorse, just easily scared. In a place where there’s nothing to be scared of, he’ll pull his weight and produce his share of wealth for the benefit of all.

        • “But why? You can’t put a moral obligation on them – in most cases, they grew up in countries that already are shitholes, and their children certainly did.”

          Yet you want to put the moral obligation of taking these people in (and feeding them, and clothing them, and giving them healthcare), on the rest of us. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

          • Where did I say it is a moral obligation to feed them and close them and provide them healthcare?

            “Taking these people in” is not a moral obligation, it’s merely a recognition of the natural right of freedom of movement.

        • “…it’s merely a recognition of the natural right of freedom of movement.”

          But receiving government benefits is not. Particularly if your only interest is NOT citizenship but to work and send your income back home, but still expect the rights and responsibilities of U.S. citizenship.

          • Sure, so why not have a multi-stage naturalization system where benefits are only acquired at the last stage (which also coincides with full citizenship rights, including voting etc)?

        • I’m all for truly “reforming” the immigration system, and I wouldn’t be against a tiered system of responsibility as you say, but all that is meaningless without the proper adherence to the law. We have now gotten to the point that we have to plug the leaks before dealing with the water in the boat. It’s unfortunate, but anytime any politician opens their mouth about “immigration reform” the border gets slammed regardless of what they are saying, mainly because they feel that if they can get their foot into the door, they will be able to take advantage of the perceived amnesty that will eventually be granted. Hypocrisy doesn’t help when the President says illegals are not allowed, but publicly hosts an event at the WH that have teenage “Dreamers” on stage, saying they are the future.

          The main problem is we have been here before, when Reagan unfortunately signed that Amnesty bill in ’86 (if I remember correctly), and we were promised by all the politicians it would solve our illegal immigration problems. Of course it didn’t.

          Another thing to note is that this goes simply beyond an economic issue, it’s also a terrorism issue. Several of the 9/11 hijackers were here on expired or misused student visas, and the Federal Leviathan didn’t have an effective means to track anyone that abused it.

    • Then support a simple system that allows would-be law abiding immigrants (the vast majority) to easily pay taxes and come and go legally. Most immigrants we’re talking about probably fall into the zero percent tax bracket anyway, and they probably already pay regressive/local taxes, but you could still charge an annual Visa fee most people would happily pay over trusting coyotes.

      Also, your comments on use of public assistance is almost certainly wrong, and their representation in crime probably is as well. Immigrants as a whole are likely comparable (at worst) to the general population in terms of violent crime, and though Hispanics are more likely to commit crime than non-Hispanic whites, they’re far less likely than African Americans. The same goes for Hispanics and welfare in general – non-Hispanic whites and African Americans make up almost 80% of total wefare receipts. Hispanics make up 15%, and other ethnic groups cover the rest.

      Overall I agree we have a crime problem, and we have a growing welfare state, but those are their own problems; illegal immigration is a symptom. If we fixed the legal issue as well as entitlements overall we’d only have hard workers and the best and brightest coming here.

    • Most illegals don’t make enough to be federally taxed and at least in Texas, they pay the same state tax as everyone else. Its called sales tax and is about as egalitarian as you can get.

      • ^

        It is also a fact that many illegals work under assumed (purchased/stolen) ssi numbers, and therefore actually pay social insurance taxes for which they can never be reimbursed.

        • So, whats the big deal about that? A lot of folks die at the age of around 65, and never collect a penny either. For the illegals, It’s their choice if they opt out of the system, rather to come to this country and go through the required formalities.

        • Gunr

          Of course you’re right. Just pointing out things not plainly in evidence.

      • I hate sales tax, it’s unfair to the lower income people. What if they collected income tax the same way they apply sales tax? That is, no break for being in a lower tax bracket, no deductions etc. Everybody is in the same bracket. You buy a $2000 TV, you will pay the same sales tax as CEO that makes 100 times more than you do.
        Imagine an elderly couple that has been saving for ten years to buy a new car to replace the piece of crap they been driving for twenty years. They have scraped up just enough to buy an economy car, and as they start to write out a check, the friendly salesperson says “Don’t forget to add on another $2000 for sales tax!

        • A flat, obvious sales tax is much more “fair” than a Byzantine, Pro-regressive income based tax code that is at least 77,030 pages long which hides the tax in every step of production and doles out niche favors to the masses in the form of deductions and tax breaks.

    • Illegals do not disproportionally use social services. Also, that they pay little or not income tax and are over-represented in crime (I am skeptical of this too), is due to their illegal status limiting their options for legal employment, and as a population is largely offset by their economic contribution to GDP.

    • I actually do not have a big problem with people who come to America who work, pay taxes, and become good citizens. My problem is people coming over here, dropping a kid, not learning English, not assimilating, and us working stiffs having to give them all sorts of socialist benefits.

  6. It’s all about control. Antis see POTG as right leaning and don’t court their votes. Instead they know that a large influx of illegal immigrants will change the voting demographic, and are prepared to buy their votes.

  8. So what?

    If an illegal alien wants an ID, they’re going to get one. It may as well come from the DMV instead of Cousin Esteban’s printer.Show of hands: how many merchants and general people can spot a fake ID with the naked eye every time ? I cant, and I’ve seen piles of IDs in my sales job.

    • So you only deal in absolutes, that if we can’t stop every fake ID then we just give out IDs to whomever requests them. So if we can’t catch every criminal should we just stop trying too?

  9. I am an non citizen that lives here and has firearms for hunting.
    At a federal level an ID or DL does NOT allow you to pass a background check.
    Please inform yourself on what the Federal gun possession laws are.

    Best,

    Federico

    • (I am also not a citizen)

      You’re correct, but only assuming that the person passing the check does not lie on their application, and correctly report their non-citizen status. That would trigger a check for their current status, whether it is expired etc.

      But if they just say that they are a citizen, and no federal database has any records on them, they may very well pass.

      Though I still fail to see why it is a problem with the ID, specifically. The issue is not that they have the ID, but rather that their status is not known to the feds and hence cannot be a part of the check.

  10. If they’re forced to provide licenses to illegal aliens then Arizona should make a special license that says, in bold red letters across the front, ILLEGAL ALIEN.

    • Funny story about that. I snapped my AZDL in half a couple years ago so I ran down to the MVD office closest to me here in Phoenix. Told the counter lady I needed a new one and she sent me to get a new photo because I was coming up on the ten year mark on my current one.

      They call my name, I grab the new one, and as I hit the door, I notice right under the pertinent info about me, it says, in big bold green letters: ALIEN.

      I walk back, show the traffic directing counter lady, she tells me to wait, and gets a supervisor. The guy comes out, is very contrite, tells me it’s a test program that shouldn’t have been live in the system, and runs me a new DL. He grabbed the old one and made sure I saw him cut it into quarters.

      The moral of the story is, they have known they would have to do this for a long, long time.

      • That’s actually some forward thinking on the part of the AZ Dep’t of Motor Vehicles…

    • Greg,
      The only problem with that, is that they would run out of red ink before they got to the end of the line!

  11. Not even close. Check an ER in the inner city of LA. Observe schools filled with kids who speak English as a second language. Investigate more than 150 crashes where the hit and run suspect is a Hispanic male adult aged 20-50 years. See who is filling up our jails. Investigate crimes including murder committed by illegals who subsequently flee the country. Thankfully I was able to re-arrest one of the murders suspects when she came back in through our thoroughly unsecure southern border.

    If illegal immigration was so wonderful, France would be an economic powerhouse. There would be numbers supporting how awesome illegal immigration is while actually taking into account the cost of the social services being used.

    I understand that crossing the border is seeking a better life. I’m seeking a better country. Unprecedented illegal immigration will not enhance this nation.

    • Understand that the only thing that makes illegal immigration illegal is the law. If, tomorrow, Congress passes the law that bars any immigration, then all immigrants become outlaws. OTOH, if they pass a law that basically returns to status quo as of 1850 or so, then all immigrants become legal.

      If illegality was the only issue with immigration, then it would be trivial to solve by simply declaring it legal. Yet, somehow, it’s not a popular suggestion…

      I mean, look at all the grievances you’ve listed in your comment. None of them presuppose that the Hispanic immigrants who caused them are illegal. In fact, you don’t even know that they are. If they are not, would that change your opinion somehow?

      The whole “I’m only against illegal immigration” thing is a smoke screen. Be honest with yourself and others, and articulate the real problems that you have with it.

      • Ok, I’ll articulate my problem: I’m against freeloaders. You could say that say that most illegals aren’t freeloaders, but that would be ridiculous. The usage of social services in major cities indicates otherwise. There are certainly other freeloaders, and I have issues with them as well.

        • I’ll second that. And I’ll add that because of the Federal “blind eye,” MS13 gang members now have branches in every major US city.

          • “because of the Federal “blind eye,” MS13 gang members now have branches in every major US city.”

            because of the Federal War on (some) Drugs, MS13 gang members now have branches in every major US city.

            There. Fixed that for you.

        • Fair enough. This is actually one of the few logically consistent positions – that immigration is bad insofar as it increases the strain on the welfare system.

          I have to note, though, that any population increase does that. In particular, if you want it to last, you should be pro-choice (in fact, pro-abortion even) and pro-contraception, and specifically support programs financing these two for poor families (as they are more likely to have many kids, and those kids are significantly more likely to end up on welfare).

  12. If you ever lived in Arizona then you would know that rampant problem of illegals and crime. It is very much interconnected. The world’s best and brightest is crap. We get the rapist, murderers, child molester, and them just being here is a crime just not enforced by the government. So just because someone is here means you are ok with them walking into a gun shop and buying a gun means that the guns will be used in violent crimes. If there were no illegal aliens in the United States the number of violent crimes would be reduced drastically.

  13. Why does the United States Constitution apply to foreigners who have illegally invaded our nation? They are not part of “We the People” as stated in the U.S. Constitution. Thus I fail to see how any part of the U.S. Constitution applies to them and the entire question of equal protection is moot.

    As others have stated, if the labor contributions of foreigners are vital to our economy, then we need a simple, streamlined, inexpensive process at the borders so that foreigners can enter legally. If issuing such people a driver’s license as part of that process makes sense, that is fine. The current situation, however, is anathema to the rule of law and common sense in our nation.

  14. This has nothing to do with gun sales. They want state issued drivers licenses so they can vote and this will lead to more rights taken away from actual citizens and given to illegals.

    • They want drivers licenses so they can drive. And work. And in most states get auto insurance.

      • How can they drive if they cannot read English signs and understand English laws and directions?

        We are turning into Italy.

        • “How can they drive if they cannot read English signs and understand English laws and directions?”

          Just like any other Californian. They point the car, tromp on the gas, and expect everybody to make way.

      • Right John, keep telling yourself that. Your hermano border jumpers are great for this counry.

  15. If you have ever checked out the process for legal immigration to the USA, you will see that over 90% of US citizens would fail the requirements if they had to follow the same process.

    • I agree that you point out a very sad fact, but that’s a failure of our school system.

      • Not quite. I mean, the failure to pass the citizenship exam would be because of that, yes, but most people would be weeded out long before then. In fact, most wouldn’t even be able to apply for a green card, because they lack the necessary prerequisites (if going down the skilled immigration route), or their relatives lack the finances necessary to sponsor them (if going down the family immigration route).

  16. What is really interesting? Most of the illegals flooding across the border now are from a small handful of countries that also happen to be in (or near) the top ten countries for gun-homicides in the world.

    Want to guess what the gun-control laws are like in those countries? Or how many of them are able to defend themselves from the local gangs and corrupt government? Might make for an interesting article that gets the attention of people focused on the current immigration issue.

    • Focus on brazil if someone does an article on it. They effectively banned guns a few years ago, total homicides more than doubled afterwards, now I think they are reversing it.

  17. I can see the logic in opening our borders to people who can’t make a living in the Third World. America needs more people on welfare. And I think I read somewhere that there’s a scabies and tuberculosis shortage in Texas. So it all makes sense.

  18. The death of America. I just talked to my mechanics dad who lives near the Mexican border in Texas . He stated it was even worse than anything on the news. My own neighborhood south of Chicago is rapidly going spanglish The housing market has COLLAPSED around here & houses are selling for 20 to 30% pre 2009. It makes it mighty enticing for people to break the law. On the + side most of Mexicans are good hardworking family folks who make food I love( too much LOL). I have NO answers.

    • most of Mexicans are good hardworking family folks

      Yeah, but the most of the current crop of border jumpers are from Honduras.

      • When people sometimes ask me about the trouble I had to go through to get my legal Asian wife into the US, I tell them (jokingly) that it would have been easier to smuggle her into Mexico, then have her sneak across the border into the US.
        You know, when in Rome, do as the………………………………………………

  19. As a person who once used to go very often to the US -legally, of course- I can understand why a person would risk crossing the border to seek a better life (EVERYTHING is better in America… except in Commifornia, The Great Republic of New York, and Killcago, they are like mini-mexicos, crime-wise). That doesn’t mean I support the action of ILEGALLY crossing the border, because that is a crime. That said, it is true that the American immigration system is stupidly long and complicated, and thus a de-motivator to do things the right way. A simplification and improvement of it (while still requiring certain desirable qualities for the applicants like… KNOWING GODDAMNED ENGLISH!) would prove very beneficial for the US, because you and I know that the US was built on freedom and immigration, and you still need us and we need you guys.

    • EVERYTHING is better in America . . . especially the free sh1t. Which is why they are coming here.

      • Yeah, it is lots of fun waiting for a young Hispanic mother with her bambinos, not being able to speak English, and trying to use food stamps at the grocery store.

        • Don’t forget,……………………………………………………..Press one for English!

  22. How about a card like a drivers license but that acts as a background check. Costs $15 and lasts for 4 years. Show it and you get a gun no more 1044s. Also have to pass a written gun safety test and grants concealed carry in all 50 states.

  24. Brown is going to need all the guns they can get once Black figures out that they are getting knocked down a peg on the perpetually aggrieved ladder.

  25. The problem with the current wave is that its completely outside the law, and its obviously supported by this Administration and the Democrats in Congress, to attract the new voters.

    Its wrong on so many levels its not worth pointing out- you either get it or dont. I do understand where they incoming parents are coming from- if conditions are so bad in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador that they are willing to risk sending mothers and kids un-escorted, at risk from rapists, the gang run human smugglers, and the Mexican police and army who beat them and extract mordida as well, then I’d probably do same.

    But this is only going to get worse, and I fear a lot of un-intended consequences, like the ones A81 points out, and what I hear from legal Hispanics who live in CA. Its going to be a big mess- some speculate Obama’s Katrina- not that the State Run Media will hold him to anywhere like the standard they did GW.

  26. It takes more than a driver’s license to pass a background check… I should know, I’m a green-card holder (legal permanent resident).

    Part of the background check requests your social security number. I assume they cross-check the SSN with the driver’s license number to see if you’re a citizen. Non-citizens like me have to also supply our “Alien” number, which means the citizen verification is skipped and additional checking with INS is conducted. The wait times for me vary between 45 mins to 2 days.

    • You don’t actually have to submit your SSN on 4473, it clearly says “optional”.

      And yes, if you’re an alien, you have to put your alien or admission number there. And if you’re a “non-resident alien” (i.e. no green card), then you also need to provide documentation that you qualify for an exemption from the usual rules, like a hunting license. Thing is, all those are only verified if they’re submitted and you indicate that you’re an alien. If you claim that you’re a citizen, and do not provide an SSN, there’s no way to verify your claim. so they basically have to believe you.

  27. I’m sorry if I’m gonna offend someone, but as far as legal immigration to US is concerned, US managed to be one of the most “closed in” countries.

    Strictly from personal perspective and knowledge, regarding the immigration matter:

    I’m and EU citizen, educated, qualified in a few domains of activity, owner of a small manufacturing business; my wife is a specialist in a medical domain. And we are both under 40 years of age. No kids.
    We have thought to immigrate to US. Well, it ain’t gonna happen under current Immigration Law you have.
    Conditions are too many, complicated, process in expensive and very time consuming, all is so complicated that discourages any idea of such.
    Frankly, why should I spend thousands of dollars (yes, the US Embassy have quite hefty visa taxes + many additional costs), entire months if my time(which is also money, since it would mean to somehow neglect, randomly, my business), just for some “maybe I will be allowed to immigrate in US”? And all this for coming to US, establishing a business there, create some jobs, contributing to economy. Also, note that if we sell our properties here, we are talking about a healthy sum of money. And my situation is not singular. Same goes for many EU citizens.
    So, sorry to say, but many people from EU (educated people, middle class, enterprising people, people that could have a real positive impact in US economy) that would like to come there, but are quite well prevented in doing so by the very laws of US. And note that all those people willing to come there are not driven by hunger, by war or an uncivilized life. They are mainly people that want to do more(some financial wise, some professional wise, some enterprise wise, etc) and consider that US might be a place where they can do more than they do now. On short, they are people that are willing to contribute to “the American Dream”, people that naturally subscribe to your fundamental and founding values.
    Even the “investor visa” is a bad joke: minimum investment sum is between half a million and one million US dollars. And the waiting time can get over 2 years, according to US Department of State info note, plus a lot of hurdles and going back and forth. Do you really think that someone that has a capital of even a quarter of that sum, will be willing to wait around to give those into US economy?
    I’m sorry to say, but from where I’m standing, under current laws and regulations, legal immigration to US is more of an exercise of how much humiliation one is willing to take, in order to invest money, his time, skill, talent and work in US.
    Sorry again if I offended anyone. Not my intention. And I really hope that US will get it’s act back together, simplify things, and make a legal frame that would be beneficial to all. I know US can do that, only question being “will US do that?”. And that is entirely in US hands and power to do or do not. Till then, my money, skills, know-how and enterprising spirit will stay where they are.

    • DG Cornelius – thanks for your opinion on this. You are right of course; it IS difficult for people to come here under your conditions. The ironic thing? I think it is by design. People who want more power in government do not want independent, clear-thinking people like you coming into the country; they want poor, dependent people coming in. That’s why they’re considering allowing illegals to stay here, even though those illegals completely ignored what you’ve been asked to do to come here.

      Sure, they pay lip service to bringing in highly educated people, and in some cases, they have to get more engineers and the like, but for the most part, people in government would rather people like yourself would just stay home.

      This needs to change. It should be easier to come here for the educated or employable, and MUCH harder for those who are not.

      • @ I Callahan: I’m glad that what I said was understood as intended: with all good and constructive intentions. Thank you. Being understood is something I do not take for granted.

        Yes, seen from here, that seems to be the problem. Exactly how you put it.

        At the present time, US immigration laws seem like how gun control policies would look like, if those ever get to be law: only the law abiding are affected. The rest go over the fence or under the fence.

      • I remember that more than a year ago, EU made a proposal to USA, based on reciprocity, for the free movement of citizens between US and EU. And USA ignored that proposal completely.
        Unfortunately, for the EU that signaled that US is not very interested in maintaining a strong alliance with EU, turning EU more and more towards friendship with Russia. Yes, EU is not very smart in doing that (as a matter fact I consider that is pure stupidity to get friendly with Russia), but that does not change the facts, as they are. And my fear is that, like in any of such, the bill will be paid by all, as it always have been, directly or indirectly.

  28. Not to jump into the whole argument – I will point out that there is already a precedence for this. Just look to the east of Arizona and you can see what happens when you give illegal immigrants a drivers license. In New Mexico they give a DL to anyone who wants one. As a result – if you have a NM DL you have to show a passport to board a plane – because TSA no longer recognizes a NM DL as proof of identity.

    • Truth to be said, I can hardly imagine how an document that attest a gained ability(driving) can be an identity act. A separation between those (identity and driving license) seems natural. How is identified one that does not have DL? An identity proof is related solely to your identity, not some skill or arbitrary qualification.
      For instance, if I come to US, due to some protocols/reciprocity between EU and US, my driving license is recognized and valid there and if I intend to stay more than 90 days, then my DL has to be exchanged for a US DL, with the same period of validity as the one from my native country. Does this mean that I’m US citizen? NO. Because my only valid identity proof is my passport, not my driving license. DL only attest a skill I have. No more, no less.

      • I realize things are different in Europe – in the United States of America the drivers license is often times the sole source of identification and is the only required proof of identity to access services. Many Americans do not even have a passport. 15 Years ago a drivers license was all you needed to cross the border with Canada or Mexico. The concern then, as it is the sole source of identity, is that illegal immigrants would use it to gain access to services.

        Now, you are correct, if you stay in the US more than 90 days you have to get one, and you can. See the system is built on trust – we expect that as a law abiding individual you would not lie and pass yourself off as an American citizen even with a drivers license. That is the problem people have with illegal immigrants. Even if they intend to be good honest individuals: they lie to get what they want. There is no trust – because there IS a legal way to enter this country. There are hundreds of them – and they require patience, they require small fees (that cover the administrative action and are far cheaper than a coyote) and they have rules. The problem is if you cannot abide by those policies – how will you abide by the thousands of other such policies that apply to citizens of this country?

        • Well, seems that what you need there is the same distinction and difference between an identity proof and a document that attest and ability. Differentiate between documents, and problem solved: no illegal alien can use the DL for things that require an US identity document.

          In relation to the rest you have wrote, KOTA-10, I prefer not to comment. I was not looking to be offensive in any way, but constructive in my critique towards US immigration laws. Instead of getting defensive on that, maybe you could use the feed back from foreigners to see how your system look from outside. But, as I said, in the end, it’s not my problem how you see fit to have it. It’s your problem. FIY, not all foreigners are malicious in their intentions, same as not all Americans are as the stereotypes describe them. At least, that’s how I consider, best proof being that I consider that worth to give some of my time to read/discuss/exchange ideas, to the best of my abilities, around here.

  29. Also what is with the commentaries of people not from or currently in the United States? Please, by all means, continue to tell us how you think our country should be run more like your current country. It may be xenophobic – but I feel pretty safe in the assumption the larger problem people have with illegal immigration is that often times proponents for the change argue about precisely that – how the US should be like some other country. Please, continue to explain how our system of visas and quotas is cruel – without checking your own national visa requirements and quotas. Please continue to call us racist – especially you France – and continue to explain how the US constructs laws to banish the rights of immigrants. How is that Anti-Hijab law treating you in Paris?

    Lastly, and to single you out only because you said so yourself DG, my money, my skills, know-how and enterprising spirit will stay right where they are too – in the United States of America. Smart people exist all over the world – and the world would be a better place if those people did all those things and improved their lives rather than b—- that they cannot do so here. If you like the immigration laws in your current country then stay there. When you complain that our laws are terrible and need fixing, compare them to the laws you currently have and then explain why suddenly you don’t want to be where you are and want to be here?

    YES America was built on cheap labor (even slaves had overhead – nothing is free). America no longer runs on cheap labor though. Rome was built on cheap labor, and eventually the labor went elsewhere because it was no longer cheap. The argument that illegal immigrants do all this hard labor in this country is a lie. Most of our cheap products are produced in China – where they are outsourcing to Vietnam and Cambodia because guess what: China is having the same economic boom we had a short while back. Eventually Vietnam and Cambodia will outsource too – as their labor markets shift and become more costly. That is how modern economics works. Most of our fruit – is picked by machine. Most of our factories – are run by Union employees who are natural born citizens making $40/hr. The construction market is no different. Day laborers are often found in the renovation and small construction outfits – and if you want to try and troll with an augment “if you live in a new house” – realize that subdivisions are built by single contractors – who own the whole operation from real estate to mortgage to construction. They don’t hire illegal immigrants because their companies profit off of huge federal subsidies that require them not to.

    One again – Europe – before you start – Not only was our nation founded out of a belief of independence from your system of cheap outsourced labor (and don’t try to push that on the British, because every part of Western Europe and huge swaths of Eastern Europe had colonies and did the same thing) but where are so many of your goods made now? Probably in the former Soviet block – and speaking of which, how is that whole thing with Putin or the entire economic collapse of Europe going?

    Sorry, I know we talk about gun rights here, the trolls got to me. I’m good.

    • I’m sorry I got you so fired up. Really sorry. I will restrain myself from any further comments, since is not my intention to generate such reactions.
      Once again, I’m sorry if you felt offended in any way.

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