This happened yesterday on 2nd ST in Old City Philly WHERE I WORK!! My friend Liz, the blonde in front of the man with the gun, was standing up for the young black man who only had A BIKE LOCK!!! We need answers!! @FOX29philly @6abc @NBCPhiladelphia pic.twitter.com/iRBUEHxO7W
— Dj Torney ♛ (@Dj__Torney) July 6, 2020
Not all Karens are women. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, a man on a bicycle stopped to yell at patrons outside a local bar yesterday in the Old City neighborhood of Philadelphia for what he considered to be insufficient social distancing and a conspicuous lack of masks.
It was a dispute typical of America in the pandemic — until one of the men sitting nearby, local bar owner Jamie Atlig, stood up as if to fight. [Customer Liz] Krieger and another woman rushed to position themselves in between them.
According to Krieger, the man with the bike shouted something about “MAGA privilege,” while Atlig shouted “Trump 2020!” That’s when Atlig pulled a gun, and Krieger said she saw the Black man freeze at the sight, then pull out his bike lock in self defense.
Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed.
In seconds, Atlig, owner of Infusion Lounge nearby, had put away his gun. And the other man, whom Krieger didn’t know, picked up his bike and rode off.
When reached for comment, Atlig referred all questions to his lawyer, Robert Gamburg, who confirmed that it was his client who is seen in the video pulling the gun on the passerby. Gamburg said the pedestrian was being “confrontational” with guests at the lounge and “was engaging in threatening behavior, menacing behavior.”
Atlig reportedly has a concealed carry permit and the incident is under police investigation.
Right or wrong, when some people feel empowered and immune enough to get in perfect stranger’s faces, sh*t happens!
The phrase “Fuck around and find out” comes to mind.
I’m always shocked at the number of people who feel they can just get in someone’s face and make comments or act aggressively for no real reason. Makes me think not enough people got punched in the face while they were kids.
No one was in anybody’s face, the young man was on the public sidewalk 10 feet away when he called out the patrons in general for violating the law:
“Governor Tom Wolf today reminded Pennsylvanians that mask-wearing is required when entering any business in all counties in the state”
The beer bellied Karen was it in a fenced, separate area, well away from the public sidewalk and in no danger from the individual exercising his free-speech rights on the public sidewalk.
Once again an idiot gun owner, brandishing his firearm in a threatening manner in a public place, setting back gun rights by his threatening display.
I predict the gun nut will take a brandishing plea and lose his CCW, all because he let his emotional needs outweigh his judgment.
Would you please the Penn State law that orders all people in Pennsylvania to wear a mask?
We don’t know what happened because the video starts after the confrontation. Maybe the guy threatened him , maybe not.
He had a weapon. So if he threatened the guy drawing down was justified. If he didn’t it wasn’t.
Maybe the guy shouldn’t have used the phrase MAGA privaledged, that was not tellling people to put on a mask for your own safety or stay apart for your own safety, that was saying uck you. He picked the fight. Had he have said you all need to wear your masks and stay 6′ apart he would have been in the right. Pulling a gun on him was wrong.
Georgia Bob,
Regarding the Pennsylvania governor’s executive order requiring citizens wear a mask in public places, a moments research will get you the exact text:
§ 7301. General authority of Governor.
(a) Responsibility to meet disasters.–The Governor is responsible for meeting the dangers to this Commonwealth and people presented by disasters.
(b) Executive orders, proclamations and regulations.–Under this part, the Governor may issue, amend and rescind executive orders, proclamations and regulations which shall have the force and effect of law.
As with all such incidents it is imperative that we take a wait and see attitude utnil we know what REALLY happened.
This video shows nothing about what led up to the brandishing of the pistol. It seems unlikely that someone with a CCW would just draw down on an annoying passerby for no good reason.
The report claims that the man pestering the people enjoying their afternoon produced his bike lock AFTER the pistol was pointed at him, but there is no way to verify that that as fact. What we DO KNOW is that protestors such as antifa and BLM like to carry bike locks on chains because they seem innocuous while still making extremely effective weapons.
It would seem much more likely that when called out for his comments the man wielded the bike lock in a threatening manner which instigated the drawn pistol.
Rather than jumping to conclusions we need to let the facts come to light through the legal process.
Too many people feel emboldened right now and willing to make verbal and physical attacks on “MAGA Privileged.” Find out who this guys is and why it thought it was his privilege to confront these people who were not harming him in any way.
once again an idiotic over-empowered Left-Wing Extremist Minority Supremacist had to ride his stolen bicycle past a group of Adult Beverage patrons minding their own business and abuse them with racial threats. one of them, the owner of a nearby similar establishemnt, courageously stood up for them and presented his legally-owned State-Approved concealed carry item to a fly on the wall across the street, which allegedly appeared to be pointing somewhere in the vicinity of the attacker, while politely offering his opinion on a better sociopolitical solution.
momentarily susrprised by the display of courage, the vicious racist terrorist suddenly ripped the bicycle lock from the stolen bicycle and menaced the crowd with it, shouting more racial threats. the peace-loving bar owner put away his gun because he didn’t want to get hit with a bicycle lock.
spin be that easy, yo
Store owners everywhere need to keep a megaphone under the table. When a Karen comes by and wants to lecture you, you just get that megaphone out and start shouting in their face. Then start following them around while shouting in their face. If they put their hand on you, then you beat them an inch from their life and leave them some broken bones to remember you. Karen problem solved.
See Section 5 of the Disease Prevention and Control Law, 35 P.S. §§ 521.1, 521.5;
sections 2102 and 2106 of the Administrative Code of 1929, 71 P.S. §§ 532, 536; and the Department of Health’s (Department’s) regulations at 28 Pa. Code §§ 27.60-27.68 (relating to disease control measures; isolation; quarantine; movement of persons subject to isolation or quarantine; and release from isolation and quarantine). 35 P.S. § 521.5; 71 P.S. §§ 532(a), 1402(a); 28 Pa. Code § 28.60.
You apparently don’t know what a Karen is. The Karen here was the dude on the bike trying to disrupt folks going about their lawful business.
And with everybody in America scrambling to buy guns how is this setting anything back?
Miner, when you have to defend yourself, I hope I make the jury.
Ok Karen
Miner that regulation does not apply while in a restaurant.
Karen49er doesn’t have a very good ring to it.
But, hey, if you’re gonna walk on ice, might as well dance sister.
Mindless49ER says…………. drivel
10 feet?
Looks at video… within 3 feet… looks at comment…. 10 feet….
But the man on the bike try that in Indiana, with our stand-your-ground laws he would be in a body bag.
Idiot gun owner? think again.
WARFAB,
“Makes me think not enough people got punched in the face while they were kids.”
I have had that EXACT same thought many times.
Many people argue that a person who is screaming in your face over nothing (or even a slight) is not a threat. I disagree. Such a person has overtly and clearly demonstrated utter contempt for you — which means they do not respect your human dignity. The only uncertainty is how far that unhinged person will act on their contempt for you.
I personally consider such behavior to be misdemeanor assault that justifies a very harsh/forceful push (shove) to the instigator to restore personal space, boundaries, and human dignity. And if the instigator recovers from the push and comes at you, that constitutes a more serious assault and justifies strikes (slaps, punches, kicks) at that point to repel the instigator.
“Such a person has overtly and clearly demonstrated utter contempt for you — which means they do not respect your human dignity. ”
I have utter contempt for you, and everyone else (Aggies are everywhere, and you never know who is who). Just how does that justify any gun owner pointing a gun at me because of what I might do, somewhere, someday?
I was punched in the face. Once. I was a teenager and had been blabbing off to someone else. I don’t recall what the heated conversation was actually about or who was in the right/wrong, but I have always clearly considered it to be my own “aha!” moment that taught me to mind my manners at all times. You just don’t know what will set the other guy off, and you don’t want any witnesses to interpret you as being part of the problem.
Agree 100%. Normal part of socialization for boys. If you are a miserable jerk, you used to get that beaten out of you. Not so these days, these days it’s more likely to be rewarded.
Sam I Am,
Normally your comments are insightful and inspiring. You totally missed the mark this time. I did not advocate drawing firearms at random people who maybe/might/could regard you/me with utter contempt. Rather, I advocated that a righteous response to an unhinged person who is screaming in your face over nothing (or even a slight) is a harsh shove/push to the unhinged person to restore your personal space and human dignity. And I further advocated that the victim would be justified to strike (slap, punch, and/or kick) the instigator if the instigator advanced on the victim after the victim shoved the instigator away.
I did NOT advocate drawing a firearm in that circumstance. And that circumstance was a person clearly acting out their utter disregard for your human dignity in what I consider to be misdemeanor assault.
Disclaimer: in the event that you intended your reply to my comment as sarcasm, I did not get that vibe and you can disregard this entire comment.
“Disclaimer: in the event that you intended your reply to my comment as sarcasm, I did not get that vibe and you can disregard this entire comment.”
No sarcasm this time. Was responding to your comment: “Many people argue that a person who is screaming in your face over nothing (or even a slight) is not a threat. I disagree. Such a person has overtly and clearly demonstrated utter contempt for you — which means they do not respect your human dignity. The only uncertainty is how far that unhinged person will act on their contempt for you.”
In the context of proper use of firearms in self-defense, the implication seemed to be that such verbal assault was of, or nearly of, imminent deadly harm. And that because one cannot predict “how far an unhinged person will act…” a response such as brandishing a firearm is quite justified.
In a different context, your wording would have other implications.
We’re good here.
Somebody running his mouth is an annoyance but not a danger unless he (1) threatens to harm you and (2) acts in a way that would persuade a reasonable person he is about to carry out that threat. You can use force to defend yourself against a credible, imminent danger but not against mere insults.
Personally, I think it’s stupid for strangers to get close together even if they wear masks. At least outdoors isn’t as bad as indoors. My wife and I always wear N95 masks indoors among strangers for our own protection. If someone without a mask got in my face, my first reaction would be to back away promptly. I wouldn’t get upset unless he persisted. Then, my response would start with a polite reminder to maintain separation and escalate as necessary to achieve that result.
“My wife and I always wear N95 masks indoors…”
Great. Were are you getting yours? The instructions on mine said the mask was compromised after 8rs of use, or 30 days after removing from the packaging.
“…an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life….politeness is the sine qua non of civilization.” Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon.
Kendahl,
An “instigator” who maintains his/her composure and respects the personal space of someone that he/she insults is not a threat of an attack in my opinion and does not justify shoving the instigator away, much less striking or using deadly force.
I am referring to an instigator who gets in your face and “comes unglued” over nothing or even a slight. Such an instigator is violating your personal space, violating your human dignity, and implying that he/she could go berzerker on you at any moment unless you submit to him/her. In my opinion that is a crime because the instigator is attempting to coerce you — via implied threat of going berzerker — into behavior against your will.
Thus, with respect to the instigator who gets in your face and “comes unglued”, I believe a righteous response is for the victim to literally push back — to forcefully shove the instigator away. It tells the instigator with certainty that the instigator is violating the victim’s humanity and that the instigator’s behavior is wrong. Second, it tells the instigator that the victim is not interested in submitting. Third, if the instigator advances after the victim literally pushed back, it shows that the instigator is absolutely intent on imposing his/her will on the victim against the victim’s will. And that, in my opinion, justifies striking (slapping, punching, and/or kicking) the instigator. (To be absolutely clear, that scenario that I just described does not justify using deadly force.)
And before anyone dismisses my explanation above, look at videos of the myriad incidents where an instigator gets in someone’s face, comes unglued, and in fairly short order proceeds to brutally strike or beat the victim. That lengthy track record, in my opinion, justifies literally pushing back (forcefully shoving the instigator away) before the instigator proceeds to deliver that brutal strike or beating to the victim.
“Sam I Am says:
July 7, 2020 at 16:43
“My wife and I always wear N95 masks indoors…”
Great. Were are you getting yours? The instructions on mine said the mask was compromised after 8rs of use, or 30 days after removing from the packaging.”
In most medical facilities we have to use them for 4 to 7 days. Shifts might be 8 or 12 hours. Some places then let us discard them. Others require us to send them for reprocessing which seems to make them ineffective and after a second round makes them fall apart. There is also a distinct odor follow reprocessing that many of us find intolerable.
My non scientific purely subjective anecdotal analysis is that, unless soaked with sweat, they seem to be effective for about 4 days before I begin to notice signs of ineffectiveness. If they are soaked with sweat that seems to kill them pretty quickly.
So I usually just surreptitiously discard them after 4 days or once thoroughly sweated and get a new one.
If you can’t find a new one then entering a restricted area without one will summon a demon known as a Karen which will berate you for a bit before providing you with a new one.
As to the original article on the story in question, the attorney of the bar owner states that according to his client the bicyclist reached behind his back for something and that is what prompted him to draw. Police refused to take a report because no victim could be located because bicycle Karen left before they arrived.
“In most medical facilities we have to use them for 4 to 7 days. ”
Using my one now (10 days, short trips to the store). The one prior is relegated to dust control when cutting the grass.
Anyway, can the public get N95s now? Where to order?
This right here. Not saying drawing a firearm was in order, but if there’s someone so wound up that they’re screaming in my face the first thing I’m going to do is check my ego and attempt to back up and create space, situation providing that its possible. If they continue, I’ll attempted to disengage by creating distance maybe once or twice more, or leaving outright. If they impede on my ability to leave or close aggressively again, I’m either doing my level best to place them on the floor with a left hook/right cross, or I’m going to draw down and tell them to piss off. Which one is selected depends on the totality of the situation and the disparity of force of the aggressor(s) as well as their hostility level.
Uhuru!
what kind of idiot thinks a bike lock will be an effective counter to a firearm?…just wonderin’…
well, they almost found out the hard way not to bring a bike lock to a gun fight.
WARFAB, spot on, I say this all the time, people who have never been punched in the face have never learned the critical lessons given by an ass beating. You learn respect for others. You learn there is always someone badder than you. You learn watch your mouth, cause you never know who will punch your ticket. You learn dont write checks with your mouth you cant cash with your ass. You learn some people are just crazy and will punch your ticket for any reason. I had a former brother in-law that grew up into his 30’s until he learned that lesson, I just happened to be the obliging teacher. I grew up in a very rough city, where fighting was part of your education from grade school on up, graduated with a PHD from hard knocks university, and has served me well.
A bike lock is a deadly weapon, if he threatened, hes in the clear. Bottomline, we have a problem, being made worse by the feelings of the “new woke order” descending on the US, dumb-asses dont know how to mind their own business.
According to the story, the bike lock came out after the gun was presented.
According to the story…
But there is no proof that the bike lock was not brandished before the video started or that the person making this statement was telling the truth or even knew the truth.
Innocent until proven guilty, on BOTH sides. Let the legal system determine if the brandishing of the firearm was a response to the threat of the bike lock or if the CCW holder was out of line.
And right or wrong (I’m leaning toward the bar owner being wrong in pulling the gun just from what’s in the video, and acknowledge that there may be other relevant info), the bar owner is going to get prosecuted and convicted in Philly.
Bike locks are a killing tool. Most has chain inside. Some have cable. You do not want to be hit with either. The ends with the lock is heavy too.
Either way, probably best not to bring a bike lock to a gun fight.
The bike lock did not come out until after the gun that had pulled his weapon and pointed it at the young man.
Just like Arbery, the young man knew he couldn’t outrun the gun and figured his best bet was to use what tools he had at hand and give it his best shot to protect his life.
Beer belly Karen is going to jail.
His best defense against the situation was to keep his mouth shut in the first place. LOL!!
Listen to and respect the infallible words of the incomparable Miner49er.
Well, there goes the idea of a “What The Hail?” fan club. I just knew it was too good to be true. Oh well…
“Well, there goes the idea of a “What The Hail?” fan club.”
Well, it outed itself earlier as the commenter “Dude”, so now we know who can be ignored… 😉
“…so now we know who can be ignored…”
Well, if you’re keeping a list, here is one to start with…and you’ll get no argument:
“Sam I Am”
Mr. Haz, don’t fret sir! Allow Hail to lick the boots of that commie Miner and fade into the dustbin of online history. I will stand guard in defense of true POTG, focusing on your own unwavering respect for the Constitution and our precious liberties. May the Stars and Stripes fly high and proud!
Miner49er,
If the man on the bicycle had his bicycle lock in hand before the restaurant patron drew his handgun, then the restaurant patron was justified to draw his handgun in my opinion.
If the restaurant patron drew his handgun before bicycle man grabbed his bicycle lock, the restaurant patron MAY have a viable defense of his actions because he was cornered between the table, chairs, and short wall. I believe the ultimate outcome, if this goes to trial, will depend on the specific people in the jury. I can easily picture a hung jury and mistrial.
“If the man on the bicycle had his bicycle lock in hand before the restaurant patron drew his handgun,”
“If the restaurant patron drew his handgun before bicycle man grabbed his bicycle lock,”
If, if, if….
If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn’t spend all day bumping his ass on the ground. We are working with what we have. More info may change things, but for now….
So we’re told. But I don’t buy it. If someone pulls a gun on you and your response is to grab a cudgel rather than flee, you either come out swinging in the hope that you can drop him before he gets a shot off, or you’re completely insane and think that threatening a guy pointing a gun at you with a blunt instrument is somehow going to decrease the likelihood that you’re going to get shot. And if you’re sure that he’d shoot you in the back if you ran, the latter option literally requires insanity.
No, what we have here is most likely a demonstration of the unreliability of eyewitnesses. They saw the gun, then looked at the other guy who was brandishing a bike lock. They didn’t notice him pull the bike lock because they didn’t see at as a weapon at the time. When they reconstructed the event from memory, they concluded that the gun was pulled first because it’s what they saw first. Moreover, eyewitnesses naturally tend to talk to each other about what just happened, and by the time the police arrive to ask questions they will often have reached a consensus, whether that consensus is accurate or not. That’s just human nature.
Hopefully there is a cell phone or security cam video that shows both men, or at least two that can be linked up by timestamp. I expect such a video would show that the bike lock was brandished in a threatening manner before the gun was pulled, and the production of a gun made the attacker back off as it has in so many other cases.
Philly bike couriers are infamous for expressing their displeasure with drivers using bike locks, though more often on cars than people.
Yes, remember the Bike Lock Professor?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muoR8Td44UE
Good (potential) shoot
Right, a citizen on the public sidewalk calls out a group of bar patrons for violating the law and you think it would be a ‘good shoot’ to kill him?
Just another individual that I would say does not have the temperament required to own lethal weapons.
And please, don’t procreate.
Move to europe communist. I’m sick of this mask shit. It’s treason. Get out
“I’m sick of this mask shit. It’s treason.”
Your rights end at the tip of my nose, you can’t guarantee you’re not huffing out pathogen’s that can kill me or my loved ones, you don’t care if you’re a friggin typhoid Mary.
You sir, are a real patriot.
Nobody has been charged with treason for refusing to wear a mask. It is a good thing that you are not a lawyer since you would be disbarred for charging people with treason for not wearing masks. There are other legitimate charges for not wearing a mask depending on circumstances. Someone could probably be justified with using lethal force against a mask-less person depending on circumstances.
Also a reusable respirator is better than a mask especially since some may be reusing dirty masks. It would be a crime to assault or accost someone that can not wear a mask due to being on oxygen. In fact assaulting someone on oxygen is may be a hate crime.
You don’t own the air in front of your nose Miner.
“Not touching you, not touching you, not touching you, I’m not touching you”
@borg you either didn’t understand my comment or are deliberately trying to misrepresent it? Not sure. Mandatory masks and social distancing is a violation of basic human rights. Move to Europe if you support such tyranny.
I am absolutely done. America is the only country with any freedom at all and everyone is trying to turn us into a shit hole. Get the fuck out. mandatory accessories, social distancing, lockdowns and all that is completely treason. Socialism is treason. Get out of this country.
I agree. Freedom scares people like Miner, and most FUDDs who frequent here.
Miner, you are afraid of a virus? Then YOU stay home or wear a spacesuit.
“Mandatory masks… is a violation of basic human rights.”
You sounds like the whiniest baby to ever exist.
Why haven’t you died in a pile of brass over having to (gasp) wear a seatbelt?
Oh that’s rich. I always wear a rubber when I bang a dirty lot lizard and I always wear my mask when I’m around you dirty fuck stains. Masks are tyrannical! GTFO
I’ll bet if the government said “the only way to combat it is to wear plastic bubbles around your entire body for a month” you’d all have a drastic change of opinion tho… just sayin.
So was the bike rider a member of the “Committee for the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice”? Was he a muslim or just a busybody dogooder that thought this was his opportunity to disrespect some crackers and get away with it? If he was standing there with a bike lock in his hand, at 10 feet, he could attack with that deadly weapon faster than you could pull a gun out of a holster.
“If he was standing there with a bike lock in his hand, at 10 feet, he could attack with that deadly weapon faster than you could pull a gun out of a holster.”
Yes, he could. And that is the price you pay for living in this country. A person standing five or so feet away, jangling a chain and saying, “You put a mask on, or I will smack you upside the head” is not a threat. A potential threat, but unless making an aggressive move, not an imminent threat. Such a person is also a potential nebbish who would run away if someone made a loud noise.
Just because there is no problem that cannot be solved with a sufficient amount of properly placed explosive, brandishing a gun is not the universal solution to every argument.
Sam, Sam, Sam…luv ya bro, but…
Just you try to stand five feet from a cop, jangling a chain and issuing a command under threat of bodily injury, then later telling the jury it was unfair for the cop to smack you with a haymaker and hogtie you while you were counting the stars circling in your blurred vision.
If somebody approaches me within several feet, with my back to a wall or impassable obstacles, and jangles a chain while telling me he’s going to hit me with it, he will wake up cuffed to a hospital bed while I work with my attorney to charge him with everything possible and go after his life savings. Examples must be made.
Please don’t ever be that guy with the chain and the growled threats.
“Please don’t ever be that guy with the chain and the growled threats.”
Just dealing with the law, as it stands.
In your scenario, the cops would have no justification or pulling a gun simply because I was standing there, loud-mouthing and swinging a chain. They would perhaps have justification for a lot of other options, but not pulling a gun. But we know cop law is different, so the scenario doesn’t fit.
“The law” does not permit the citizen to escalate an argument to presentation of deadly weapons. Threat of imminent death or grievous bodily harm is the only justification for pulling a gun on another person. Being “dissed” does not qualify. Being “dissed” by someone holding a weapon does not qualify. Only an overt, aggressive act justifies deploying a firearm in self-defense.
Are self-defense laws good, bad or ugly? Doesn’t matter; not germane to the conversation. Part of being a “responsible, law-abiding gun owner” is having the self-restraint necessary to avoid misuse of firearms in any circumstance.
Bike boy made no threats, and witnesses stated that the bike lock did not come out until the young man felt he had to defend himself from the drone firearm pointed at him by beer belly Karen.
Why is it so difficult to understand, the young man standing on a public sidewalk is perfectly authorized by the first amendment to publicly state his opinion regarding other people.
So if a Republican conservative standing on the sidewalk saw a pro abortion Democrat having dinner 10 feet away and started accusing him of baby killing, the Democrat would be perfectly authorized to pull his gun and wave it in the Republicans face?
Interesting position you’ve taken…
Sam you can deal with the law as it is, and we will fight it and win. Especially now.
“Sam you can deal with the law as it is, and we will fight it and win. Especially now.”
All for changing laws. Meanwhile, severely aware that the laws exist, and disinterested in enduring the consequence of ignoring them. No amount of bravado or chest-thumping will prevent enforcement of laws you don’t like. I do note that there is precious little interest displayed by elected officials for entertaining any changes that do not further restricting the activities of gun owners.
Sam,
“…the cops would have no justification or pulling a gun simply because I was standing there, loud-mouthing and swinging a chain.”
Okay, I volunteer you to test your hypothesis and swing a chain while standing close to a cop and yelling at him aggressively. Let us know how it goes, and please remember to have a buddy record video. Actually, since you’ll be in the hospital first and then in jail, you won’t be able to let us know, so tell you buddy to come to TTAG on your behalf and tell us all about it.
“Okay, I volunteer you to test your hypothesis and swing a chain while standing close to a cop and yelling at him aggressively. Let us know how it goes, and please remember to have a buddy record video. Actually, since you’ll be in the hospital first and then in jail, you won’t be able to let us know, so tell you buddy to come to TTAG on your behalf and tell us all about it.”
We already said cop law is different. And there is a big difference between justification and action. Have you read any instruction from any LE agency that states the first action to take when observing a person shouting insults and holding a chain is to draw a weapon? A person who is taking no action against anyone? Yes, cops will arrest anyone pointing a cellphone at them, but they have no justification. Just as you have no legal standing to pull a gun on someone shouting insults at you, someone not presenting a clear, imminent treat o deat or grievous bodily arm. You don’t get to use the “coulda , oulda, shudda” theory of what might have happened.
Face it, drawing a gun in the middle of an oral confrontation cannot be made legal, moral or just. Defending irresponsible gun owners does nothing to protect the Second Amendment, nor advance the argument that there should be no regulation of the Second Amendment (infringements). POTG should shun and disavow any gun owner acting irresponsibly.
(this is all contingent on the timeline narrative of the posting to be accurate)
Sam
“disinterested in enduring the consequence of ignoring them”
so.. not willing to fight for freedom. Just live in peaceful slavery and allow them to pass more laws. Do you think you can stop them any other way? If the left has shown us, excuse me, REMINDED us recently, it’s that violence changes things, and the government is shitting bricks because of them. Could you imagine if “law abiding gun owners” actually got off their ass and fought for freedom again?
“so.. not willing to fight for freedom.”
Are you saying you have a criminal record as a result of “fighting” for freedom? Have you been arrested for stopping an argument by pulling a gun on someone? Have you been arrested for carrying (open or concealed) a firearm past metal detectors? Do you have an arrest for civil disobedience regarding firearm laws? Did you openly obtain or construct an NFA-controlled firearm or device? Did you illegally buy a firearm, and announce it? Did you organize a mass pro-gun rally somewhere? Did you openly carry where it was prohibited? Did you walk into a police station with a rifle slung over your shoulder?
I have no problem with any gun owner who renounces the title/label of “responsible, law-abiding gun owner”, so long as they don’t then try to claim the moral high ground of being unfairly treated as a law-breaker.
Waving a gun at someone who is shouting at you is NOT fighting for freedom. Not wearing a mask at this time is a poor example of being a freedom fighter; the message is lost amongst the ridicule. (wearing, or not wearing a mask is unimportant to me)
“A person standing five or so feet away, jangling a chain and saying, “You put a mask on, or I will smack you upside the head” is not a threat.”
Sorry, Sam, that’s where you are wrong. Someone like that is definitely a threat and deserves anything that’s coming to him. He articulated direct threat of imminent violence, has the deadly weapon in his hand and is close enough to make good on his promise in less than a second. Intent, ability and oportunity right there.
That said, I would not shoot him at that point, but I would get ready to do it if he moved towards me.
” articulated direct threat of imminent violence, has the deadly weapon in his hand and is close enough to make good on his promise in less than a second. Intent, ability and oportunity right there. ”
I believe that wraps it up right there. In most states, communicating a threat is barely one step below an actual assault, and it need not be just a verbal threat. Actions and posture also count. If the perp already had the lock in hand as was verbally assaulting people who were pretty much minding their own business, then it seems pretty clear the bar owner was fully justified in presenting – but not discharging (and he didn’t) — his firearm.
“…then it seems pretty clear the bar owner was fully justified in presenting – but not discharging (and he didn’t) — his firearm.”
Seems pretty clear to many, but law is a funny animal that will bite you in the ass while you treat it kindly.
Nobody is treating the law kindly. Everyone here on this comment section knows the law is against them. When it’s the threat of law, or threat of life, you have seconds to act. Chose wisely, because you might not live to fight the law.
Miner, please explain to me why the graphs showing life expectancy over time of a normal male human, life expectancy of a normal female human, and life expectancy of a human with covid are THE EXACT SAME GRAPH. I am not making this up. citation BBC article (liberal source) titled “is it time to free the healthy?”. Same graphs dude. covid is now a political football and is probably the most overblown health emergency in history. Shit happens. life moves on. Yeah it sucks, but be mad at the chinese government if you want, but this left-wing driven thought policing about the virus is turning humans against each other. You can see it everywhere you go… assuming everyone coughing is a leper, judging each other’s distancing, and destroying what was a thriving economy. stop being a collaborator and doing China’s work for them.
“…covid is now a political football and is probably the most overblown health emergency in history. ”
On this we agree !! Covid-19 as been a political scam even when it was a health issue.
I wonder if the 130,000 Americans dead in five months believe Covid is just a political football.
Unfortunately it seems they are unavailable for comment.
And the answer is shut down a nation create an artificial depression drive ppl at almost no risk into bankruptcy. And as a bonus walk all over the 1st Amendment. Yes it was the perfect response minor.
Who says violence doesn’t solve anything…
Dumb or naive people.
Dumb. I hope he gets charged for brandishing. The “protestor” was not an imminent threat to life and limb. He was just a loud mouth.
Of course you do. More gun control right? The “loud mouth”, as you put it, was communicating inappropriately. The armed citizen may have been communicating inappropriately (more info needed). No one was hurt “loud mouth” stopped and went away. Good outcome, no crime. End of Story.
Amen!
Being disgusted and critical of a gun owner who acts foolish is not gun control, or even supporting gun control. The gun owner lacked gun control, and should accept the consequence without complaint.
^whole lot of BS in these comments until this one. Sam I Am I completely agree with you on this one.
“^whole lot of BS in these comments until this one. Sam I Am I completely agree with you on this one.”
Happy to be here
Grateful for the opportunity
Proud to serve
But you’re not talking about being critical are you. You’re talking about punishing someone using the force of government for the crime of hurting absolutely no one. You claim that your desire to control and punish the non violent use of a gun that you don’t think was appropriate is not “gun control”. It’s truly amazing, the working of your mind. The twisting of words and their meaning is precisely what has brought us to the level of infringement that we now have. This is the reason that the 2nd will never mean what it says, “shall not be infringed”, because too many think it’s more about whether you should spit or swallow.
There are laws, whether we like it or not, regarding the circumstances where deadly force may be applied in defense. Haven’t heard of any of those laws justifying the presentation of a firearm to resolve an oral dispute. In most places, using the display of a firearm to intimidate someone who is not actively, physically assaulting a person with an intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm, is prohibited. Seems a general description of such behavior is labeled “brandishing” (to display a firearm with intent to cause alarm within the public), and is a crime.
Based solely on what we have for information, the gun owner was not being physically assaulted at all. Thus, displaying a firearm with intent to intimidate another person (which is surely defined as “intent to cause alarm”) is not a matter of self-defense. So, yes, responsible gun owners should be critical of such another gun owner, and support the legal consequences due the irresponsible gun owner in question.
I you wish to live in a society where pulling a gun amidst a shouting match is normal, work to change the laws. The right to own firearms, in my mind, is absolute for all humans (a whole ‘nuther discussion), but there is no natural, human and civil right to use a gun to settle an argument.
I thought he showed exemplary gun control because he didn’t shoot the porch monkey in the face 5 times. 🤷♂️
“I thought he showed exemplary gun control because he didn’t shoot the porch monkey in the face 5 times.”
There’s that. I just used “gun control” in place of “emotional control” because of the irony of the term “gun control” in the context.
“porch monkey”
Hey, now this thread has our token racist!
Yep, how dare that little ‘porch monkey‘ stand on a public sidewalk and exercise his 1st amendment right to state his opinion about other citizens.
What, does he think this is America?
Misplaced reply. Should have used “@” to designate the person you intended for the response.
(note: I have no idea what “porch monkey” means)
he didn’t settle anything, let alone an argument. he ended an annoying, heated discussion peacefully.
sometimes when you need to convey, “tell your story walkin'” a little impression of possible scenarios is entirely appropriate.
take the hint.
Sam, when a cop draws his gun, what happens? Are they punished for brandishing? How many times have police used brandishing as a deterrent? There ya go buddy… if they can do it… I have also seen some recent BS in your commenting, throwing people under the bus for brandishing. Times are changing sir. If you can’t de escalate even by trying to walk away or ignore whatever is happening, your right to utilize the tool you are in legal possession of to de-escalate has never been more evident than now. And it works. An armed society is a polite society, and fact of the matter is, these people will learn it one way or another. Now if you have another case of brandishing you’d like to present I’d be all for a dialogue on it, but if there is a threat that won’t de-escalate and the threat was not started by the person brandishing, don’t even bother.
Cop laws are different. Brandishing is defined by whatever laws exist in any specific jurisdiction. Waving a gun at someone yelling at you is nowhere justification for presenting the threat of deadly force in return. The legal standard for justified use of a firearm in self-defense is “imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm” (or the local equivalent).
No, things are not changing. The self-defense laws remain unreliable allies; flaunting them is neither noble, nor effective in preventing the impact of the full effect of those laws. Yes, I will throw any gun owner under the bus who acts irresponsibly (including me). Such persons merely add fuel to the fire to eliminate the Second Amendment.
I wonder if this incident and others like it will necessitate the creation of masks with built in straws.
This is the last thing I will say to you Sam, because you would rather take a knee than stand your ground. You cannot support the second amendment and say “cops laws are different”. You just lost a lot of credibility in your so called “wisdom” as seen by village elders here at TTAG, not just me. That is straight up 100% FUDD talk, sir. Kindly, fuck off and continue aiding the leftists in their agenda.
“You cannot support the second amendment and say “cops laws are different”. ”
You really think law for cops is not different? Where have you been? Why do you think so many complain here about how cops get away with so many things regular citizens cannot hope to survive? Asset forfeiture? Red flag laws?? Qualified Immunity?
Yes, a cop can pull a gun on you for any reason at all, but it doesn’t mean such action is justified (even truly legal). Individuals cannot do the same thing, and claim “qualified immunity”. You think law is the same for cops and the general populace?
How is it that recognizing, highlighting an intolerable difference between law for cops and law for the populace somehow disqualifies one to be a defender o the Second Amendment? How does criticizing an irresponsible gun owner become a problem?
Pulling a gun on someone shouting at you meets the requirement that one be faced with imminent treat of death or grievous bodily injury? And you think the “village elders” agree that words are the equivalent of an armed attack?
“recognizing, highlighting an intolerable difference between law for cops and law for the populace somehow disqualifies one to be a defender o the Second Amendment?”
Except you don’t just recognize it, you defend it. I recognize it, and aim to change it. Change is often violent – not in a bloody way, I mean scientifically violent, as in rapid and chaotic. Human nature makes change violent, in a bloody way. The rest of your attempt to solicit me falls on def ears, and is totally irrelevant. I know what a criminal is… it’s getting caught. You seem to know that too, and like I said before, accept it. Fine. Accepting that mentality and abiding by it are entirely different. The same as morality is not to be confused with legality, which you also did here. One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I believe it was MLK who said that. Another one is:
“Legality alone is no guide for a moral people. There are many things in this world that have been, or are, legal but clearly immoral. Slavery was legal. Did that make it moral? South Africa’s apartheid, Nazi persecution of Jews, and Stalinist and Maoist purges were all legal, but did that make them moral?”
Walter E. Williams
“Except you don’t just recognize it, you defend it”.
Yes, I defend calling-out irresponsible gun owners. They are a detriment to efforts to recapture the essence and utility of the Second Amendment; they provide bad examples to be used against responsible gun owners. The struggle is difficult enough without irresponsible gun owners committing “own goal” errors.
BTW, “morality” is a flexible proposition, determined by raw power, or power of the majority; “might” making “right”.
And no, I don’t think people agree that words are the equivalent of an physical attack, only the difference of the intention of those words. Telling someone you will hit them with a chain is 100% legally a threat, and morally, I would not let you attempt to use it against me or anyone else in the vicinity. If someone says they are going to blow up a school, should that not be treated as a threat? Or just whatever, cuz sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me… Still, all the same, I agree both parties are over reactors here, always have, never cared to mention it because you are way off on the subject here, but one party will certainly know that some people won’t tolerate harassment, regardless of why. That is what matters to me. The morality, not the legality.
“Telling someone you will hit them with a chain is 100% legally a threat…”
Yes, indeed. Such a threat can be handled with existing laws not involving armed response.
“If someone says they are going to blow up a school, should that not be treated as a threat?”
Yes it is a threat. Does that justify pulling a gun on the person making the threat, yet makes no move to carry it out? Or does it simply justify informing LE, and filing a criminal complaint? (pulling a gun to effect a citizen arrest due to a crime [threat] committed in the presence of the citizen may be justified under local laws)
“That is what matters to me. The morality, not the legality.”
The legality may exact an untenable price; not something to dismiss cavalierly.
Stay the hell out of peoples faces and then nobody has to want to shoot you. What made him think that he could just run up on someone and bother them just because he felt like it and nothing was going to happen.
So if you rode in on a bicycle and went in to have a drink, why do you have the lock in your pocket and not on your bike? In Portland they have been known to carry a chain and a heavy padlock. It can be a dangerous weapon or claim that its only to chain up their bike(yeah, sure).
i’ve seen teen girls takeout windshields with their “gym locks.” or maybe i rented that.
in any case, it’s fairly universal in sanctuary cities.
“i’ve seen teen girls takeout windshields with their “gym locks.” or maybe i rented that.”
thanks for the grin
Why do gun owners keep reinforcing the “crazed gun owner” meme?
Just as in the military, every privilege (gun ownership is not a privilege, but stay with me) we lost was because some jackass(es) decided to abuse it.
Busybodies have been with us since forever. We don’t need to threaten them with deadly force.
In my little burg, there is no brandishing as a deterrent/warning. In my little village, there is no warning shot as a deterrent. In my little village, you pull your gun, someone better get shot. Here, “imminent treat” means you have only seconds to protect your life, or die. (I see no benefit in challenging the local authorities on this).
The gun oner here as just wrong, and should pay a stiff price for it.
“Why do gun owners keep reinforcing the “crazed gun owner” meme?”
Occam’s razor.
Because many gun owners are indeed, crazed.
…and some people don’t know when to mind their own business, STFU, and keep on pedaling.
pay witness to oblammo’s togetherness. most are on edge due to current soycumstances. imagine a tavern owner not wanting to hear about it. baby groot fined five taverns last night for clustering, the upper deck of one of the boat rides got it too.
our monday night barkeep, bless her, made a necessarily ample brassiere out of a “nice pair” of masks.
Wut? What titty bar in backwoods alabama is this?
funny you say that ‘cuz mangela’s (she has a lil’ moustache) mom lives down there and she enjoys visits often. and likes boiled peanuts. and figgered since she has to wear a mask… she’d wear three.
i’m waiting for the fourth to round out the ensemble.
Sam, we are at war whether you chose to acknowledge it or not. It was a cold war for a very long time over the past couple decades, and recently, it’s burned down cities. People are not going to ask politely more than once anymore. No matter what us gun owners do, the law is out to get us and so are the gun grabbers and their agenda. Stop cowering to their beliefs by catering to their design. Stand your ground.
“Sam, we are at war ”
Yes, we are…a culture war, a war over the direction of the nation (see history of the US, 1850-1860). But we are not in a shooting war. We are not in the “boogaloo” (which the vast majority of gun owners would want no part of if they saw it up close and personal).
Everyone can decide for themselves whether they wish to continue to call themselves “responsible gun owners”, while ignoring/violating the law. Everyone can decide to become lawless. No one can claim to be morally exempt from whatever consequences result.
A person who decides to defy the law cannot then claim to be a victim of unfair treatment of responsible/law-abiding gun owners. You cannot walk in two boots going different directions.
You are confusing morality with legality.
“You are confusing morality with legality.”
Not at all. They are not the same, any where.
I am saying laws exist, and one obeys, or defies. Choosing to defy removes one from the “reasonable, law-abiding gun owner” roles. However, under no concept of morality is one justified in pointing a gun at someone who is only insulting and yelling at you.
Still looking for evidence of all these 2A supporters who are defying the existing firearm laws. One might say that the gun owner in the current post is defying the law, fighting for freedom through unjustified use of a firearm, but I wouldn’t want to be among them.
I want to see evidence of people open carrying where it is illegal, people marching into police stations armed to the teeth with what are currently illegal weapons, of people leading and participating in large armed groups parading to city hall and taking over the building until they get firearm laws repealed. Where are the pro-gun rallies that match Trump rallies in attendance? Why are the POTG not carrying firearms to Trump rallies, in defiance of law?
“Why are the POTG not carrying firearms to Trump rallies, in defiance of law?”
Because their obedience to their Messiah, cadet bone spurs Trump, is greater than the lip service they pay to supporting and protecting the 2A.
“Because their obedience to their Messiah, cadet bone spurs Trump, is greater than the lip service they pay to supporting and protecting the 2A.”
Looks to me more like they remain responsible/law-abiding (law-respecting) citizens/gun owners. But let’s go with your explanation that they are mindless Trump drones.
Why do we not see dozens, if not hundreds, of arrests daily, of 2A patriots who openly defy existing law regarding firearms? Could it be the vast majority of gun owners are continuing to use accepted legal means to make their case through elections and the courts, reserving rebellion and open insurrection for the day when those are the only tool remaining?
Ummm…I got nothin’. Slow news daze? And it’s HOT😩😖😟
Keep your powder dry. Hot nights in Chicago usually result in a new record of shootings.
Sure, the rudeness of the guy with the bicycle was uncalled for. But he did not threaten anyone and left when he was threatened.
Now then, brandishing a gun over a verbal dispute?
Arrest him, charge him, take all his guns away and force him to spend tens of thousands on lawyers in a fruitless effort to get them back. Add his name to NICS as a moron who pulls a gun because he cannot handle rude language.
How about staying out of the face of less than perfect strangers? You never know who has a mental health issue or who may have just gotten news that they are fired, and their wife ran off with their best friend and their dog got hit by a car yesterday. That person won’t give a flying F^(k about hurting someone. I like letting strangers stay strangers; therefore, I do not get in their bubble with my words or deeds.
Plus if, I am not social distancing with others who are not social distancing that means we all want to take a chance together. Who has a right to say Jack $#i+ to me about it. And if you got a bike lock in your hand I will blow a hole in the middle of someone’s forehead if they make me think they mean to assault me with it. Should, I take an ass whipping (which could end in injury or death) from a stranger just because he thinks I need one? Your mileage may vary, I won’t take that Pepsi challenge.
IIRC, the gun owner drew first.
“According to Krieger, the man with the bike shouted something about “MAGA privilege,” while Atlig shouted “Trump 2020!” That’s when Atlig pulled a gun, and Krieger said she saw the Black man freeze at the sight, then pull out his bike lock in self defense.”
I hear you, and he is an idiot for pulling his gun. However, we should give people their space. I have known several men and woman who have died over their mouths writing a check that their behind couldn’t cash. And the bill was almost due for that stupid kid running his mouth. He acts like a person with “white privilege” himself. All high and mighty scolding strangers if the black dude was a white woman we’d be calling him Karen. Imagine if a white woman had acted that way with a crowd of black patrons of a bar. She’d be a Karen for sure LOL!! The one eyed cyclops vision of most people. Our hypocrisy knows no bounds LOL!
If that’s true. But we have no idea. Btw putting yourself in front of a gun in a fight like that is stupid.
The kid was on a public sidewalk 10 feet away from the bar patrons, he didn’t call out anyone in particular, and made no threatening statements or moves.
The young man was exercising his first amendment rights on the public sidewalk to call out the bar patrons in general for violating the law.
And I can tell you, everybody in the immediate vicinity of this incident now have a dim view of private gun ownership and concealed carry licenses, thanks to the brandishing display by this ‘responsible gun owner‘.
“And I can tell you, everybody in the immediate vicinity of this incident now have a dim view of private gun ownership and concealed carry licenses, thanks to the brandishing display by this ‘responsible gun owner‘. ”
Most likely.
A perfect example of a responsible, law-abiding/law obeying gun owner.
Sam, beer belly Karen started when he broke the law by not wearing a mask in a public restaurant.
He then went on to brandished a firearm in a threatening manner without just cause, breaking yet another law.
I hope beer belly Karen enjoys the black-and-white TV in the day room.
You talked to everyone there Miner, Sam?
Willing to be there are tons of people who don’t care to ask politely more than once to stop harassing them and won’t be segregated for the color of their skin or assumed to support one political side or the other because they are not wearing a mask outdoors, or even indoors.
Isn’t that the way you usually talk, Miner? Unity something something blah blah… Don’t believe the media blah blah blah, blm actually supports black lives and whites are racist blah blah blah, so it only works when it fits your agenda? Not the medium? No middle ground huh? Assumptions must be made to make sound decisions it seems.
The tone that was set here is simple: Don’t start none, won’t be none. Most people don’t understand it and I don’t expect them to, like you and Sam, because they assume every situation can be handled without using force. I’ll be clear, I don’t agree why he pulled his gun, but I also wouldn’t take the risk getting any closer or allowing some crazy who stops to Karen random people for not wearing a mask and all, outdoors… right? Maybe you could have just whispered in their ear and calmed everyone down… Try those tactics in November… hell, try them now in any major city. Good luck.
“I also wouldn’t take the risk getting any closer or allowing some crazy who stops to Karen random people for not wearing a mask and all, outdoors… right?”
If every insult is reason to go full gunfighter, then you are dangerous to be around. If you insult me, I don’t care. You have your opinion of me, I have mine; mine is the only one that counts. If you want to stand at a distance and call me names, disrespect my choice of food, drink, attire, well, I have better things to do with my time than engage with you. I certainly have better things to do than sit in a jail cell or brandishing a weapon at some loudmouth who will not shut up.
If the timeline given in the text of the posting is correct (if), there is no defensible logic to justify pulling a gun on someone being obnoxious and rude; none. It is just that simple. Just say these words aloud, listen to yourself; would you be proud to utter them in public: “If you don’t shut up, and stop bothering me, I will shoot you !”?
Wrong.
“Wrong.”
Wrong? The direct quote from the article attributed to people involved is wrong? Has new information come about that the biker pulled the chain first? If so, that might change things a bit; might.
You made the claim “wrong”. It is for you to demonstrate the error.
The next time you are in a verbal dispute, draw your piece and see where that gets you. Hopefully charged and fined.
Who started it? How many times should I be polite in asking and allow my personal space to be invaded? COVID can spread up to what, 14 feet? Something like that. Does a mask fully stop the airborne spread? What happens when I attempt to de escalate and walk away, only to be followed and cut off, forced into the same situation? are hand gestures being made in a threatening manner? Are verbal threats being made? When EXACTLY is it your opinion that one has the right to utilize a legally obtained tool to attempt to de escalate when all other matters have failed? Are you trained in de escalating situations? A negotiator? Have you ever heard of the 21 foot rule?
Want me to keep going?
“How many times should I be polite in asking and allow my personal space to be invaded?”
As often as it takes. We don’t get to brandish firearms because we are frustrated. Even with beer virus, proximity presents no imminent threat of death or grievous bodily injury.
Like I said, only one way to change that, and asking for it won’t be the way.
The bicycle guy was wrong to be rude and ill mannered.
Nothing about that is any kind of valid reason to pull a gun and point it at somebody.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
He pulled a gun for no damned reason at all. That makes him an enemy of my Second Amendment Rights.
Arrest that idiot.
I have seen a 40 oz bottle do some damage on a man who had a gun in his holster who failed to pull it. If someone has a balled up fist I’m going to pull my gun to show them that they have pulled up on someone who is going to end them for doing so. Devil may cry, I’ll deal with what happens next but that other person? Well they won’t be dealing with anything ever again.
Nothing defuses a situation where some asshole is harassing customers and employees faster than putting a firearm in their face. Then letting them decide if it’s really worth their life. No one shot…No one injured. Because the asshole chose wisely. Good for the owner and good for customers and good for the Asshole. Because he’s alive and hopefully learned a lesson about not being a Karen.
If the local police are in any way on the ball they should arrest and book the gunman. Charge is brandishing and threatening.
We do not need hot heads who point their piece at someone who’s mouth they don’t like.
Don’t like, or don’t want to be harrassed by?
Both, yes, either/or. There is nothing life threatening about somebody behaving rudely at you with mere words.
At what distance does a “verbal altercation” turn into a threat? An invasion of one’s privacy? Harassment is not just mere words, it’s a threatening action. It’s intimidation and humiliation. An argument can change into harassment in one sentence. Nobody is going to defend you but yourself in the milliseconds that an enrage person who is harassing you decides to turn violent. The law does not protect people who go on the offensive because the law is meant to punish you for it. When it’s your personal safety, or the trust that “mere words” won’t turn violent in a heartbeat, I’d rather be on the offensive. Self defense is violent, whether or not its defensive or offensive. Sometimes you must counter aggression with the threat of violence to stop it. The law does know that much. All you have to do is prove it. I don’t agree with this guy doing what he did, but he has already done the right thing “legally” to prove it can easily be justifiable. Just look at how little is said when asked for a statement. I’ll check back in later when the case is dropped and this man retains his right to self defense.
to me, they were both wrong the owner for unlawful display of a deadly weapon because according to the story he pulled his weapon first then the other guy pulled bike lock, out in defense now the guy was wrong for starting the fuss what he should have done is just of call the law but the owner can be charged and lose his permit where I live for pulling his gun when he did
The gun guy should lose any sort of concealed carry or gun owning license he may have. He should be criminally charged and lose all his guns until the case is settled in court.
Nothing about that incident warranted pulling a gun.
That young man just learned a couple of life lessons. First lesson us if you go looking for trouble you will almost certainly find it. Lesson #2 is that there are crazy people out in the world who can, and may, hurt you for no good reason.
What he learned was that if you stand on the public sidewalk and exercise your first amendment rights by calling out a group of people who are breaking the law, fat old white gunnuts will threaten your life with a firearm.
On the other hand, beer belly Karen is about to learn many lessons about the criminal justice system, and pay several attorneys country club dues while he’s at it.
You haven’t answered before, but I’ll ask the question again… what law?
Sorry Dr. Casey, I was otherwise engaged.
Regarding the Pennsylvania governor’s executive order requiring citizens wear a mask in public places, a moments research will get you the exact text:
§ 7301. General authority of Governor.
(a) Responsibility to meet disasters.–The Governor is responsible for meeting the dangers to this Commonwealth and people presented by disasters.
(b) Executive orders, proclamations and regulations.–Under this part, the Governor may issue, amend and rescind executive orders, proclamations and regulations which shall have the force and effect of law.
The young man was standing on the public sidewalk over 10 feet away from the group of patrons, exercising his first amendment right calling out those folks for breaking the law and endangering the health of others.
Beer belly Karen felt stupid and guilty about his ignorance, so like a small child he jumped up and started waving his gun.
He is going to jail and losing his CCW.
How do you drink to prevent heat stroke and dehydration with a mask on?
He might not lose the license if he can establish that the biker was threatening him and/or other with a deadly weapon in the form of a bike lock.
Haven’t you heard? It’s the law that says you must wear a mask even while you’re eating and drinking., which is what people do at a bar. After all, it makes sense that people can shove food and drink right through their masks! Right?
all y’all mask wearers are out of the facial wear closet now. haven’t had this much fun since ya’ played with cap guns and wore bandanas. wouldn’t normally want to be branded a femwee but now you can mist your mask with a bit o’ febreeze and entertain thoughts of brunch.
“it’s the law!” have you seen your elected officials?
oh, and here’s a game: which one was the karen?
dumbass.
“He might not lose the license if he can establish that the biker was threatening him and/or other with a deadly weapon in the form of a bike lock…”
Sure, as long as he can establish that he has a time machine and could look forward to see that the bike dude was going to do that AFTER he drew the gun.
I never said the guy who pointed the gun was right just that if you go trying to pick a fight then you may run into someone who will oblige you. There were other options available to the young man including reporting the restaurant to the health department and
/or calling the police to have an officer come & counsel the patrons. The young man was acting like an entitled “Karen” and almost paid a very high price. Whether or not the bar owner gets charged will be determined by the authorities and not by any of the commentors on this website.
“What law?”
The executive branch has the power to regulate. Only the legislature may pass laws. Only laws can define crimes.
Furthermore, the Constitution has no Covid-excemption clause and remains in effect.
Jeffy Poo, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania the legislature has given the governor’s executive orders the full force and effect of law.
Notice the video only starts when the gun is already drawn. I’d be willing to bet there’s more to this story than we’ve seen.
“I’d be willing to bet there’s more to this story than we’ve seen.”
Could be right, but if everyone simply said, “We don’t have enough information to comment”, this blog would be really boring.
Those two women in his own group got in front of him to diffuse the situation, telling him to put it away. Seems like they were the two there with some sense.
ok, maybe they should get the vote.
Was the bike guy making death threats or just being rude a-hole? By the time we find out, more news will overshadow it.
i’d be willing to bet as well, that karen asschapped rides his single track vehicle past these establishments all the time and has enamored himself to the patrons and owners repeatedly. mister pistol may just be fed up.
Nah, 49er already said what happened as he saw it in his crystal ball. But he still doesn’t know what Karen means.
That all you got? Sad.
The bike rider who started the whole thing was probably not carrying a full dozen dozed eggs anyhow. Sometimes it’s just better to let some things go.
“Whenever feasible, one should eat the rude.”
— Hannibal Lecter
Rude fricassee and a dry Chianti? 😉
(That sound he made with his lips and teeth)…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TAIcCqFpg
Free range rude.
“only had a BIKE LOCK”
Uh-huh, we know something about what leftists like to do with “harmless bike locks”, don’t we?
Start shit in public for no reason and you get what you fucking deserve.
Don’t come to a gun fight carrying a bike lock.
Next time the idiot will be carrying his skateboard.
Same old, same old. Some come down on the side of the guy with the gun, some go the other way. It get’s tiresome.
But pretty soon it won’t matter.
An armed society is a polite society.
When you know everyone is armed, you are more polite. One reason I love the range.
This was wrong, but the reason I want universal constitutional carry is to stop this angry society and go back to polite.
I’m not sure how long that will take.
“When you know everyone is armed, you are more polite.”
This is the problem I have with claims that more gun ownership, and more concealed carry is directly responsible or any movement o crime statistics. The only way gun ownership/carry can be a demonstrable deterrent is if the populace truly nos everyone is strapped, and everyone believes impoliteness can be a life-changing experience. Obviously, in the instant case, the bike rider was not aware, nor convinced the patron was armed.
i believe the full understanding that entirely everyone around you may arm themselves with no restrictions would provide the same effect.
“i believe the full understanding that entirely everyone around you may arm themselves with no restrictions would provide the same effect.”
Understanding springs from knowledge. Without knowledge that “everybody” is strapped, the general presumption is they are not. Thus, the threat behind the idea that an armed society is a polite society is frustrated.
In Heinlein’s world, the knowledge of armed populace was general knowledge. In real life, such “knowledge” is sorely lacking. Without widespread, nay, universal knowledge of the enforcement mechanism, without universal fulfillment of the enforcement mechanism, what few armed citizens exist are readily discounted as to being non-existent. Even with the presumed ~ 2million DGUs each year, the populace does not register a wide-spread threat of an armed society.
As with any deterrent, not only must the adversary know the deterrent exists, but must believe that it will be used.
nothing adversarial about it.
we are not at a point and may never again achieve the ability of all to legitimately possess without restriction.
but were we to, that understanding would have the most profound effect upon societal manners.
That’s the spirit, open carry for everyone!
“That’s the spirit, open carry for everyone!”
Yes. The armed person is a citizen; the disarmed are subjects.
(stole that from someone).
AzzHole feels free to insert himself into my peace, why shouldn’t I feel free to insert my piece into his azzhole. Pucking Funk
To the editor of TTAG…The more you allow comments like this by RACERX the faster you will lose visitors to your site.
I used to come to this website for information about firearms and ammunition. Now a trip through the comment section has large amounts of racist language and information that if followed would result in major issues with law enforcement.
I’m no longer going to visit your site. Imagine the case where I was in a defensive gun use…I could see a prosecutor pulling my web history and using your site to show was an ignorant a-hole I was and how I was looking to see how I could ‘put my piece in his asshole’.
Not a long trip to guilty from there.
Do the right thing and bar these idiots from your comment section. I (and I’m sure others) might return after that.
Oh, and to all the commenters that are going to tell me good riddance I hope that you don’t follow much of the advice on the site and commit aggravated assault. You probably wouldn’t do well in prison…
Based on your concept of what is acceptable speech, I presume you are also comforted by the banning of disfavored speech on all social media sites?
Someone once said the counter to bad speech is more speech.
Well…..bye!
Nobody will miss you Eddy
Words are scary.
Dan should provide a safe space on this site where only the nice people are allowed.
“Dan should provide a safe space on this site where only the nice people are allowed.”
I’m a nice people, but I would find the safe space, and trash it.
How about we get the full footage before we start condemning people. Slap the idiots with a disturbing the peace charge and call it a day; Instead of the circus the people in the peanut gallery so desperately desire.
do you watch the static channel? i’m a test screen guy myself… it’s often capped with a rousing national anthem.
Fuck the guy harassing customers…owner was protecting his bar and patrons…and if there is a law against that…it’s bullshit. Also fuck the bullshit mask mandate…in commie fornia newsom closed down all the bars, but not his 4 wineries…tired of the corruption…
somehow i got that he was a patron that owned or worked at another tavern nearby, but i’m not going to read it again, nor was that the final call anyhow.
farrakhan has that wrapped up.
I love how our resident Leftists are drawing ironclad conclusions based on a video that begins in the middle of the confrontation!
Whatever happened to waiting for all the facts and evidence to come in?
Maybe the bar owner was wrong. Or maybe it was a situation much like the woman at Chipotle responding to an imminent threat that was “conveniently” left out of the original posted video. Either way, given that this happened in the City of Brotherly Shove, I don’t expect him to be treated any better by the local “justice” system.
“I love how our resident Leftists are drawing ironclad conclusions based on a video that begins in the middle of the confrontation!”
Did not view the video. Instead, responded to the narrative presented (which may not be absolutely correct). IAW the timeline in the text, the patron drew a gun prior to the bike rider displaying a weapon. The bulk o commentary follows the timeline of the presented text.
This was a case of two morons. The biker was a moron since he clearly does not understand that it is difficult to eat and drink while wearing masks. The owner was a moron since he could have pointed out that it is difficult to eat and drink with masks. The owner could then have invited the biker to demonstrate how to eat and drink while wearing a mask.
What you have said is true; however, people are so tired of Covid-19, BLM, etc… You are talking about hi-performance thinking and higher behaviours. When a lot of people are ruining low on fuel. As for me if, I don’t have to talk to people, I don’t.
“people are so tired of Covid-19”
But COVID-19 is not tired of people, not by a long shot! Doesn’t it feel good to be loved by self replicating protein molecule, how sweet!
As a matter of fact, COVID-19 loves them some people (elders or young-in’s), nothing better than fresh new bodies to infect.
COVID-19 has passed 130K dead, and has set a challenging goal of doubling that number by the end of summer.
So get out there and cram the beaches, elbow to elbow at the barbecue, pack the pews at prayer meeting, do your part!
You know, this could be made into a monster if we all pull together as a team!
only pink you’ve ever seen was yer ol’ pal floyd. remember blowing bubbles as a kid?
The woman is screaming that he had an effing bike lock. Sounds like he already had it in his hand and that she thought the owner’s reaction was too much. Whereas he probably knew the damage a bike lock can do and drew down on an aggressive man with a deadly weapon, ie., a flail. We shall see!
Good catch
The video clip appears to be inconclusive. The article said that Atlig claims he saw the black man reach for an object behind his back. That’s what caused Atlig to draw down on him, not because of what he was saying. Hard to say if this was true from the angle shown in the clip. The black man was within range to deploy a contact weapon within a second or less (Tueller Drill). Without another video angle, Atlig’s lawyer should be able to beat this case if it goes to a jury.
The man in the video also says that when he gets his crew they will be even.
“The man in the video also says that when he gets his crew they will be even.”
Good. Let’s have good ol’ street shootout. The more the merrier. Let’s see how many bodies everyone can rack up. Hundreds, thousands, more. Enough with the foreplay!!
i didn’t notice atlig was wearing one.
This occurred at a bar. An outside bar. If Atlig was consuming alchohol prior to this incident, it may explain his poor judgement. It will also not bode well for keeping his CC permit. If he has insurance for firearms-related incidents, the use of alcohol may void coverage for this event.
If you are going to drink in public, while carrying, you are multiplying your risks.
Good point. I renewed my CCW last year and my instructor said that the Ventura Co Sheriff said, a CCW license holder can have one drink in public while carring.
No ordinance, I just email proof from the Sheriff. I’m sure every AHJ around the US has some wierd varying degree of what amount of alcohol is permisable while carrying.
Very good points.
In Arizona having a permit allows you to carry concealed in a place that sells alcohol but you may not imbibe. It i one of the few advantages to the permit in the state, which otherwise had Constitutional Carry either open or concealed.
Dr William Schockley Inventor of the Transistor also developed a race theory. Time and time again his theory is proved.
In todays racially charged climate, what was a black man thinking when he challanged a table of whites consuming alcohol ? Not too bright in my opinion. As for the man who drew his weapon I might be convinced he may be up on the news cycle and truly believed trouble just arrived. He smartly recognized a possible threat.
Because of current events I have started carrying a full size 9mm with 2 xtra mags and put away my smaller 9. Depending on where you live and work one might be super vigilant or remain laid back. If you have ever had to draw on a threat its an experience unlike any you have experienced. And if you carry israeli style you will not have time to chamber a round.
Lets follow this one and see what the law does.
“He smartly recognized a possible threat.”
But a ‘possible threat‘ does not authorize beer belly Karen to pull his firearm and threatened the individual on the public sidewalk with lethal force.
The young man was on the public sidewalk exercising his first amendment right to voice his opinion of other citizens. When beer belly Karen pulled his weapon he was attempting to intimidate the young man, there was no threat from the young man, this is just because beer belly Karen felt shame and guilt.
Yes, that’s it.
Shockley is not your best option to bring into this topic. His brilliance in electrical engineering did not save his reputation in his later life when he went full tilt eugenics insanity on race and intellect. The man’s obsession with race, genetics and intelligence destroyed his every friendship and family connection except for his second wife. The man became an embarassent, a pariah, his own destruction entirely self-inflicted.
All that is off topic anyway.
There was nothing “smartly” about Beer Belly Karen. There was no threat to recognize or respond to. He hugely overreacted and committed a crime in doing so. He deserves to be arrested and punished.
The owner should provide free customized masks to diners with a hole large enough to facilitate eating and drinking while wearing them. Also the owner needs to make sure that social distancing is followed. Also the owner was wise since it appears everyone is dining outside since there have been cases in which a ventilation systems in restaurants have contributed to the spread of the virus.
The biker should have called the health department and/or police department rather harass people there since the health department and/or law enforcement would have authority to take action against a business for endanger health and safety of the public.
Pulling a gun on someone because they’re bothering you should result in prison time.
Pulling a bike lock out on someone who is annoyed with you and has pulled a gun is even stupider and is likely to result in death.
Hard to feel sorry for anyone in this situation.
The bar owner may be be able to argue that he was justified if the biker appeared to be reaching.for a weapon at the time in which case he managed to extract the bike lock just after the owner drew his gun.
“The bar owner may be be able to argue that he was justified if the biker appeared to be reaching.for a weapon…”
“Appeared to be…” equals “imminent threat of death, or grievous bodily harm” ? We ain’t cops. We don’t get to use that excuse. We get whatever the DA decides, and the jury believes is reasonable.
Besides, nobody forced the gun owner to respond to insults by drawing a gun, rather than ignoring the loudmouth. If the reported timeline is correct, the gun owner acted irresponsibly and unjustified.
Oh yes, what is it we call people who cannot tolerate insult, or opposition? Karens? Snowflakes?
Perhaps the owner’s lawyer will argue that the biker was not wearing a mask while screaming at the top of his lungs causing droplets to be disbursed all over the entire dining area.
“Perhaps the owner’s lawyer will argue that the biker was not wearing a mask while screaming at the top of his lungs causing droplets to be disbursed all over the entire dining area.”
That would be an interesting approach, except…..
The gun owner wasn’t wearing a mask either. And, to date, we have not seen any direct evidence that being exposed to beer virus poses an imminent threat of death or grievous injury. That would require absolute proof that no one exposed to beer virus lives afterward.
If the timeline in the original post is correct (haven’t seen confirmation yet), then the gun owner used deadly force (or the threat of deadly force) to silence a loudmouth.
“And, to date, we have not seen any direct evidence that being exposed to beer virus poses an imminent threat of death or grievous injury. That would require absolute proof that no one exposed to beer virus lives afterward…”
So does a pistol not pose an imminent threat of death or grievous injury because most people survive being shot by one?
“So does a pistol not pose an imminent threat of death or grievous injury because most people survive being shot by one?”
Not if it is not pointed at you with intent. Ex: at the shooting range, a person irresponsibly seeps the muzzle across several other people. Does that justify someone shooting the irresponsible gun handler?
Mere proximity to a firearm poses no threat to anyone. Proximity to someone with Covid-10 is no guarantee the virus will infect, or if infected, the victim will suffer any harm at all. If someone should intentionally try to infect you it Covid-19, the only remedy may be a civil suit for damages (there are circumstances where intentional infection may be a crime).
The owner would have been within his rights to call the police to report the biker for disturbing the peace and harassment. Also the owner could have taken the bikers picture so that if the biker left the police would have a picture of the biker to use in case the biker escalates his crimes.
What police? The police that needs to be defunded or straight disbanded for mistreating blacks? That’s the police he needs to call on the black bicycle riding “health inspector”?
I wouldn’t be bothered if he smacked the guy around a bit either. Just don’t introduce a deadly weapon into a situation that has no place for it.
The biker is clearly not wearing a mask. It occurred to me that the biker should not have been shouting at the top of his lungs since he endangered everyone there since by shouting his droplets traveled much farther than 6 feet. He therefore potentially contaminated the entire dining area. Also the lady in the video was also shouting. at the top of her lung so she also potentially contaminated the area. The owner if in court should point out that the biker shouted at the top of his lung when screaming at all the customers potentially endangering all of them.
Gee, another hypocrite. Imagine that.
Sorta like the ones who can’t tell the difference between a mandated decree and a law, then running their mouth in public with self-righteous authority.
STFU and keep pedaling ….
“ones who can’t tell the difference between a mandated decree and a law, then running their mouth in public with self-righteous authority.”
First, there ain’t no such animal as a ‘mandated decree’.
Assume you were talking about the governors executive orders regarding mask wearing.
In that regard, the Legislature of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has given the governor’s executive orders the full force and effect of law:
§ 7301. General authority of Governor.
(a) Responsibility to meet disasters.–The Governor is responsible for meeting the dangers to this Commonwealth and people presented by disasters.
(b) Executive orders, proclamations and regulations.–Under this part, the Governor may issue, amend and rescind executive orders, proclamations and regulations which shall have the force and effect of law.
In Texas sheriffs are refusing the Governor’s order.
I live in NJ where the idiot Murphy is in charge. The “law” is a waste of police time to enforce and a theft from the public’s pocket in the form of a fine. Just another punishing fee for an already bankrupt government to collect from citizens with a financial boot on their necks.
As far as the “law” is concerned, to hell with the “law” and the tin-pot hypocrites issuing them. They’re the same ones who put 30-some million out of work, released felons onto the streets, and crushed the economy.
In the town I visit some wear a mask but most don’t, I wear a mask because I think it’s a real trip to walk into a bank wearing a mask and carrying a gunm. Human nature, say you must and humans go against it. ,,,,,,, Today I had to get a covid test because I’ve got surgery tomorrow, I thought well that’s all fine and dandy but what if I get around someone who has it tonight, what then, and also the human who gave me the ride wasn’t tested, neither one of us wore a mask. I kinda think if the Gov, says wear a mask, wear a mask
What’s with the “gunm”? Why the extra “m”?
I am always armed when going into a bank. Not always openly, but sometimes I have been.
That’s one advantage of living in a Second Amendment Free State.
Possum’s preferred spelling of a synonym for firearm is irrelevant to the fact that he’s one of the smarter, if decidedly irreverent, and more amusing posters here.
We could all learn a fair bit from that humble marsupial. Far more than you’ll get from the trolls. IMHO, the increased risk possum presents in terms of disease is a far better trade than the essentially guaranteed loss of braincells interacting with the trolls will cause.
Surgery? You going to get one of those lampshade looking thingies the vet puts on dogs and cats?
“I think it’s a real trip to walk into a bank wearing a mask and carrying a gunm.“
Exactly, it is a total mind trip, I don’t understand why people are against wearing masks.
Our governor just stated at a press conference that those with concealed carry permits, don’t worry about wearing a mask, it’s perfectly legal.
And for all the tin hat topped folks, masks are an excellent way to fool facial recognition software, there are no algorithms that can handle the random mask sizes shapes and colors.
I have no idea why the conspiracy theorists are against the wearing of facemasks, all I see are advantages in the struggle with big brother, not to mention the whole warding off infection thingy.
If the man on the bike is not a LEO, then he should have keep riding.
Yep, MYOB, STFU and keep pedaling.
The Philly bar owner was responding to a threat to his customers, who are his charges. All small businesses are hurting, the people are coming back and some little shit is trying to chase them away. I am sure that he put chairs and tables out in a legal fashion, or there would be a story about that. If this “Karen” really cared, he is free to get a cop.
Chasing off customers is not right and the business owner has a right to defend them. Most bars have some kind of persuader to help run off trouble makers.
If you don’t like it, you don’t have to go home, but you can’t hang around here.
Yeah, maybe, up until you start pointing a gun at people.
https://www.phillyvoice.com/infusion-lounge-bar-owner-jamie-atlig-black-man-gun-video-old-city-philadelphia-social-distancing/
https://www.inquirer.com/news/infusion-lounge-owner-jamie-atlig-pulls-gun-social-distancing-20200706.html
So witnesses are talking and the gun came out first. Not the bike lock. Beer Belly Karen was the escalating idiot in this stupid encounter.
Calling people idiots while using the word Karen just like 49er. Funny, that.
Ignoring the actual content of the post and alluding to some sort of alias posting in an attempt to distract from the fact that he is wrong.
Funny, that.
Have you not heard “idiot” and “Karen” used except by one guy here? They’re pretty common insults.
I can tell you I’ve never used the word idiot in a post.
That may be your internal voice you are hearing.
It can be difficult to hide from yourself.
Meh. Another short video clip that lacks context being shoved out so that people can reinforce their preconceived notions before all the facts are in.
TTAG does a service by bringing it to our attention but we need to recognize it for what it is.
Lame clickbait? A reminder of how far TTAG has gone down the sewer?
“A reminder of how far TTAG has gone down the sewer?”
And yet, here you are.
Says more about you than us.
“A reminder of how far TTAG has gone down the sewer?”
It’s a shitty story for sure. However, shooting the messenger who brings you bad news eventually leads to a situation where the messengers don’t bring you bad news. Then you find out about it when it’s at your doorstep.
“ Bad news on the doorstep, I couldn’t take one more step.“
“ Bad news on the doorstep, I couldn’t take one more step.“
I was actually delivering papers on the morning the news broke.
Ugh. Don McLean, the wannabe Jim Croce.
Next someone’s going to start quoting Air Supply as if shitty ’70’s soft rock actually ever meant something other than “I like getting ass but can’t talk my way into a woman’s pants on my own so I bought this garbage record and some booze instead”.
If you want soft rock idolizing dead rock ‘n’ rollers I’d suggest Marc Cohn. Sure, it’s like 15 years later/newer but at least Walking in Memphis has decent piano work and a tempo that gets rises to something more uplifting than a an EKG hooked up to a corpse.
“If you want soft rock idolizing dead rock ‘n’ rollers I’d suggest Marc Cohn.”
Nah. I’ll take Woody and Arlo Guthrie. For the latter, “Alice’s Resturant” and “City of New Orleans” were the best.
my meatmen shirt has an image of the fab four with skulls on a pair of them. “two down, two to go.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt81bVae4tQ
There isnt enough there to decide who was officially at fault, but as far as I’m concerned the Karen could wash ashore somewhere covered with barnacles and it wouldn’t break my heart a bit. Idiots like that are the same ones that used to remind the teacher she forgot to collect the homework.
In my state we ignore stupid laws and the police dont enforce them.
It’s all the tv coverage. People see others doing it and getting away with it so now someone from the low side of the bell curve decides he’s gonna see if he can get some white people stirred up and make the news.
And lo and behold he does. They’re trying out THEIR new privilege and anyone who takes offense or concern will find out soon who their new masters are.
Sadly this does not bode well for relations between the races. But then that was what all this nonsense was all about. That and a few other things that promote and highlight discord.
Any one who can’t see that better learn fast. It’s not going back to the old ways regardless.
You know why the left always wins? Because, right or wrong, they always take their own side.
You want to be exterminated with dignity? Because that’s the road the Right is on.
One is not required to wear a mask while seated there , only when you get up from your seat . Right ? Kinda hard to eat and drink with one on . Bike lock man has no clue or just wanted to start sh!t .
The first thing to keep in mind here is this is Philly. They’re assholes.. They can’t help themselves regardless of which tribe it is they may subscribe. There really is nothing to see here. Just another shitty day in the City of Brotherly Love.
Wiregrass-
I’m from Philly. Another piece of ghetto garbage on a bike stabbed a successful developer to death in cold blood, and our Soros appointed DA refused to prosecute because the murderer lied and claimed he was called the N-word.
Based on facts and events here, the bearded man who pulled his gun was not only justified, he might have saved lives.
Keep flapping your jaws while hiding behind your computer.
While the country seems to be on board with mandatory mask wearing, this is a good time to make a law that requires mandatory protection unless you’re specifically trying to conceive or unless you’re married. Not having children out of wedlock is one of the verifiable keys to success. This would also decrease the abortion rate.
We can also make it a law to require full disclosure of any STD. STDs are still a problem. As a matter of fact, they’ve been on the rise. I wonder why you don’t hear about them like you used to? Hmm.
I’m sure the Left would be fully on board with these laws, right?
“Not having children out of wedlock is one of the verifiable keys to success.“
You are absolutely correct, unwanted pregnancies lead to financial insecurity as well as juvenile delinquency.
That’s why low or no cost birth control is so important, everyone should have free access to birth control and contraceptives in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
Of course, President Trump is cutting that coverage now from Obamacare so we’ll soon see a spike in unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
Sorry Miner. You don’t get to kill innocent babies so you can make more money. That’s as evil as it gets.
If the guy on the bike pulled out his own pistol and shot the bar owner after the bar owner drew on him, would it be justified?
Yes, once beer belly Karen pointed the lethal weapon with malicious intent at the individual in the bicycle, he had a reasonable fear for his life and would be authorized to employ deadly force in defense.
I think all would agree, let a stranger point a gun at you and see what happens.
So the Black guy was A.) 100% correct to call out the scofflaws, and B.) doing nothing more than exercising his American right to Free Speech… and boy-Karen commits a felony by brandishing a weapon.
Yet wypepo STILL support the criminal and call the law-abiding citizen bad things. Hmm, funny, but when the worst of the wypepo were always boohooing that Obama was going to take our guns (which he never did), it never occurred to them that it will be their own terrible behavior and lack of control which will get the 2nd Amendment tweaked so that the fuzz can come collect all the guns.
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