Bill is wrong on this issue, what else can you say? This is not and should not be about race. But because cops are not coming clean with what they know, and what little “evidence” surfaces it seems contradictory, thus the people feel outraged. They feel that cops are once again against them, which may or may not be true. Not to mention that this is fueled by the unbelievably unprofessional reporting by the mainstream media. The public opinion has reached a verdict. They will cling to however little they know about the case to support that verdict. And as I’ve said, because cops have not laid their evidence on the table for people to see, both the media and the people make it more about race than anything else with their inflammatory rhetoric. Maybe Zimmerman should go to jail, maybe not. But this should not be up to CNN or Fox or Bill to decide.
This is an active case. The full reports will be released when it’s appropriate to release them.
ok, but perhaps some sort of a statement would help to calm down the public? I mean, you have dupes like Spike Lee giving away the guy’s (wrong) address, the Black Panthers set a bounty on him, everyone else is ready to hang him. If the cops believe that based on what they have Zimmerman did nothing wrong, then can’t they say something like that?
That would taint the jury pool. If the jury pool has all watched the police department publicly state that he did nothing wrong that would influence the jurors opinion as much as or more than any evidence presented in a court of law. Also since the investigation is still on going it would be premature for them to make any statement about guilt or innocence at this time.
Why is the unprofessional reporting unbelievable?
Reporters have always been lowlife selfish backstabbing uncaring scum.
“Ten minutes ago a meteor fell from the sky crushing Mrs. Jones home, killing her husband and five children.
Mrs. Jones tell me and the rest of the world, how do you feel at this moment?
I agree with most of your sentiments, but there is one thing I would like to add to your post: for many African-Americans, the police and the judicial system are simply not trusted. This mistrust of the police is as imbued into them as an Irishman’s distrust of the English. And in many ways this is a rational prejudice. Let’s pretend that the last 50 years of America’s history was perfect unbiased and absolutely prejudice free. That half-century of perfection would not erase the centuries of legal and extra-legal maltreatment by the judicial system.
If we just think of lynchings, we can see why this may be true? Some 5,000 people were lynched in the US (around a quarter of these were not African American). These extra-legal killings were done without fear of prosecution and were done in a way to emphasize the powerlessness of the African-American community (and to the poor whites, hispanics, and immigrants who were also killed). The mobs would often drag the victims through the African-American neighborhoods to drive this point home. It is a disgusting reality that pictures of many lynchings were turned into postcards and sent through the US Mail. The judicial system did nothing to stop these acts–and southern US Senators (Democrats, remember, they used to be the conservative party) blocked federal laws that would have outlawed lynchings.
Those injustices linger in the memory of people for generations after the practices stop. Don’t believe me? Ask an Irishman what he or she thinks of Cromwell and see if this is true.
Cromwell had some good ideas, just the execution was silly putty.
Which ideas were good? The bashing in of Jesuits’ heads? Ending the celebration of Christmas? Selling Irishmen into slavery? I am not sure about killing CharlesI . . . it depends on the day how I feel about that one.
I actually had Oliver Cromwell in mind. Thomas Cromwell was a bit of a bitch.
Florida apparently has some of the most far reaching freedom of information laws on the books today. The prosecutor has placed a special enactment to keep records sealed.
This is both good and bad. If they feel they have enough to prosecute then they want enough information to hopefully have an untainted jury.
Unfortunately it also makes it look like they are stone walling etc. My hope is they will fast track what ever it is they need and either go to a grand jury or unseal the records to state why they find him innocent. At least at that point it might put everyone at ease.
I used to like this moron and he can be funny at times, but he doesn’t have a clue.
I tried to watch the video. I got through two minutes, and the abject stupidity just makes me want to hurl.
“Is there any doubt (that Zimmerman is lying) based on this tape?”
Oh, I see… these clowns are now forensic experts who have “NO DOUBT” about the “evidence,” and are ready to get the noose ready based on the grainy garage tape. So, I simply could not waste any more brain cells and time listening to these morons. Two minutes was all I could take.
+ 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
That was exactly my reaction, but I’m not sure I made the two (2) minute mark.
This baffoon only cares about being popular and funny.
Which side of the argument gets the most applause and laughs.
I agree with both the above comments. I tried to make it through the whole clip, but couldn’t stand it enough to.
Would that be the altered tape that the ABC and NBC showed, with the banners over the back of Zimmerman’s head and nose? Or the ACTUAL HD tape that clearly shows something wrong with both of those areas? Did they review the altered 911 tape that implies that Zimmerman was recially profiling, or the ACTUAL 911 transcript where he was clearly asking a question?
If ( when) needed , where can Mr. Zimmerman hope to find twelve (12) fair and impartial jurors?
There’s no such thing as fair an impartial, which is why both the justice system and the SCOTUS are little more than obscured iron fists.
A drooling leftist demanding emotional reaction and scoffing at the concept of true justice while dismissing any opposing viewpoint? Color me surprised.
This useful idiot has become like Moore…the only people left who listen to him are as fanatically idiotic as he is.
There are also drooling rightists… Plenty of partisan hacks on both sides of this issue. People on the same side are too slow to censure their own morons, and too quick to point fingers at the other side’s jackoffs.
If you can’t think of three or four folks on the right who are just as bad as Maher, Moore, etc.. then you’re blinded by your own partisanship. If you can.. then congrats.. you’re one of the few truly rational human beings.
We are all hostage to our own biases… cases like this really bring it out.
And if the grand jury finds the evidence too thin to indict, then what? Just keep yelling about racism? Whenever someone is THAT sure of another man’s guilt, without a trial, what you’ve got is the beginnings of a lynch mob.
Beginnings? The lynch mob is HERE. And, it’s being led by “luminaries” like Spike Lee, Roseanne Barr, Rev. Sharpton, Bill Mahr, et al. And, they are eagerly followed by those who seek to claim some delusional moral high ground and apparently have nothing else in their lives that gives them any feeling of significance.
This is a tough case for me. As I believe in the second amendment, I am an NRA member, a ccw holder, former law enforcement, frequent reader of TTAG, but I also, have known Trayvons mother since 2007 (we have several mutual friends), I live in south Florida, am black, and heck I might as well admit that I went to an all white private school and still voted for Obama and am likely to again, even though I make enough money to be a republican….
All of that said I think that Zimmerman is wrong and though he was a ccw holder we should be in an uproar as ccw holders because NOBODY that I know white or black that is a ccw holder would have done this. For him to report all of the crap that he did on the 911 call then turn around and end up in someone’s yard with this kid dead is ridiculous. Everyone please stop thinking that this case is going to be about the right to carry. It’s about folks ignoring that this guy was unhinged. Listen to the call he threw everything but the kitchen sink into it…
He is checking me out, he is looking at all of the houses, he has his hand in his waist band, he has something in his hand all of that while in the car, then he gets out and follows. Ask yourself, who does that? A real concerned citizen who carries for defense only, drives away gets distance and reports. IMO he was setting up the tape so that he could have a justified shooting. I would be inclined to accept this if he had shot him from the car using stand your ground because someone approached him while in the car with their hand in their waist band and holding something in their hand. Then perhaps we wold be debating a mistake in judgement regarding what was in the hand but the I felt threatened and feared for my life might fly.
Also why disconnect from 911? Keep 911 on the line and sit in your car when the person approaches let the entire encounter be recorded by 911. Zimmerman hung up because he didn’t want 911 to hear that he was following Trayon. IMO Zimmerman wanted to be a cop so bad that he wanted to make that neighborhood his own police force. I want to know how many police departments he applied for? If he did why did he not join? I’m betting it’s because he didn’t pass some departments psych evaluation?
This guy is not the one to stand behind when it comes to protecting gun rights. He got himself into this and since the very beginning folks have been trying to help him get out of this. This case stinks he should go to jail IMO second degree murder (I’m not a lawyer) I say second because I feel he didn’t plan to kill Trayvon specifically but I feel he prepared in is mind a scenario of how to kill the next black man that he saw in that neighborhood that was there to commit a crime. He thought it through before and when the opportunity came he put it into motion when he called the police.
“I feel he didn’t plan to kill Trayvon specifically but I feel he prepared in is mind a scenario of how to kill the next black man that he saw in that neighborhood that was there to commit a crime.”
Your argument had some merit until this part. What is there about Zimmerman or his actions that would suggest he was targeting black men? Are you saying the results would have been different if the person he followed was Hispanic, Indian or Arab?
I am saying that from what I have learned many of his reports and calls to the police and to neighbors involved black males. These stories may very well have been true I don’t know. It is reasonable to think that if I live in a gated neighborhood that continues to be infiltrated by folks that happen to be black from the surrounding community (a quite depressed one at that take a walk down the street from the Sanford police station it looks like the fifties) that one would prepare to defend against a black person. The question is whether he was racially profiling or if he was playing the law of averages? That’s all that I am saying his past actions and/or encounters shaped his thinking. There have been many examples of how people have said on 911 calls that a black person did it or even a white person did only because it made the story more believable to them or it made the lie easier for others to believe. Again I think race played a part in it but not more than his desire to be a super cop. I think the police failing to do a real investigation was an even bigger problem. Just offering my opinion in an effort to assist my fellow ccw gun owners that may care to know what someone who is black that shares at least one commonality.
Thanks, that’s much clearer.
You are welcome. Too answer the other part of your question, I think that Zimmerman could just have easily shot anyone no matter their race, nationality, or color if he presumed that they were what he perceived them to be. I feel he was a loose cannon that was allowed to behave as a vigilante because he was seen as helpful and willing to do what other folks in the community were not. I just don’t want it to be a gun rights issue. It is a Zimmerman issue. The police department coming to his aid so to speak by not doing a proper investigation is the problem. They should have done their jobs and let the chips fall where they may. There wouldn’t have been this uproar had they investigated.
“I just don’t want it to be a gun rights issue. It is a Zimmerman issue.” I agree! This case has nothing to do with the SYG law, CCW laws, or gun rights in any way. I would argue, though, that it’s also a Martin issue. And both issues should be sorted out by the courts, not by the media or armchair investigators.
I don’t consider it a Martin issue. Because as far as I know Trayvon simply walked to the store for a drink and some candy and was chatting with his girlfriend on the phone. The 911 tape shows that Zimmerman in his own voice was following Trayvon. Pursuing someone or following someone does not a victim make. If I had been walking in the dark in the rain and some bozo in a car was following me then he got out and followed me and I tried to evade him but walking faster or even running and he still pursued me there would have been a real serious problem. When does one have the constitutional right to pursue someone and confront them and shoot them? This case is not right and I think that the police should have treated it just like a homicide. Never seen a homicide scene cleared in less than an hour. Zimmerman called the police got into a fight shot someone and the police arrived found the body perhaps tried o administer some sort of aid then treated Zimmerman for his broken nose and his head wound then got witness statements and his statement then got him to the police station where by the way they didn’t book him or process his clothes and etc. all in under an hour? The police are on the scene of a some traffic accidents longer than that!
Zimmerman should have been arrested and had to tell his story to the judge and the jury!
The first paragraph is useless information meant to appeal to people who you seem to think care about such things.
In the second paragraph you state several things that merit questioning. “NOBODY that I know white or black that is a ccw holder would have done this.” Done what, exactly? And who is saying that this case is going to be about the right to carry? I’ve seen people worried about the effects this tragedy may have on the Stand Your Ground law (which might not even be applicable in this case), but nothing about the right to carry. Also, do you have proof that George Zimmerman is “unhinged”? What is your definiton of unhinged? Is unhinged a legitimate medical definition? Are you a psychiatrist that has evaluated George Zimmerman?
Moving on to the third paragraph. And who does that? Neighborhood Watch people, apparently. Who says a Neighborhood Watch person can’t carry for defense as well? Furthermore you imply that George Zimmerman was not “a real concerned citizen.” Proof? Then you go on to further say that you believe Zimmerman was involved in setting up some elaborate conspiracy just to shoot someone. Do you believe George Zimmerman is a criminal mastermind able to outwit trained investigators?
You can have your opinions, you’re entitled to them. But you cannot have your own facts. Furthermore, IMO, opinions not based on facts are just about worthless.
My question to you is did you listen to the 911 calls that were released? Listen to Zimmermans report and tell me honestly that you don’t think it is plausible for him to have fabricated any of the behaviors reported especially given the fact that it appears that the kid was on the phone with a girl and had an iced tea and a bag of skittles. After that let’s debate what I said.
I think Zimmerman is a want to be hero/cop and he screwed up and killed someone that was unarmed and clearly not a threat to him. I have experienced people who wanted to help me solve crimes before and voila they turned out to be the criminals.
Stand your ground is very applicable in this case because it appears that it was the reason they let him go.
How about you let me know why you think he was justified in your own opinion rather than criticize me for having an opinion at all that is unique to my thoughts.
Zimmerman listed various opinions in his short 911 call. The guy on drugs, they always get away, he’s up to something, he has something in his hands, and etc.
The first paragraph was written because it is true if I wanted to I could have never written anything here and could have simply gone on the radio and had a discussion about it. In fact I am going to do that and invite you to participate.
I did listen to the 911 call Zimmerman made and it is possible he wasn’t correctly reporting things. I’ve never said that it wasn’t. Nor do I know if Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time or whatever. All of this will eventually come out.
You think Zimmerman is a wannabe cop based on what? Your own personal opinion. Okay, but where are the facts? Is everyone who calls to report a suspicious person in their neighborhood a wannabe cop? Are all neighborhood watch people wannabe cops? If you stupidly follow someone to try to see where they went, after they ran away from you, does that make you a wannabe cop? What makes a person a “wannabe cop”?
SYG is not the reason they let Zimmerman go. They let him go because the prosecutor didn’t think they had a case based on the information he was provided with.
Furthermore, I DON’T KNOW IF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS JUSTIFIED. I’m waiting for the full police report, the determination of the grand jury, etc. before I weigh in on it. It’s called being responsible and objective.
What radio show are you going to be on? Provide the contact info and a place to listen online and I’ll consider it.
I will provide the link on here after I confirm that I will be on the air. It will be tonight or next Sunday night. Check back in here at 11:15 est. show starts at 11pm and goes till 1am est.
I will even list a number if you would like to call in to participate in the show.
I am glad you are waiting for the full police report the problem is that since the police didn’t do a typical investigation there is going to be very little in the report. We are talking about a situation in which the father reported the child missing and didn’t find out until 3 days later that his son was already in the morgue killed the same night he reported him missing. Nobody in the police department thought to check his phone to see if he had made a call. Or attempt to notify a next of kin. They listed him as a John doe.
I think Andre is on the money with this. Yes, we are speculating because we don’t have all of the facts/evidence. But based on what is available to the public, Zimmerman keeps looking worse and worse. There are now audio experts trying to match the yells for help heard in the background to Zimmerman’s voice, and coming up as negative. Yeah, this is all part of the crowdsourced sideshow, but sometimes the crowd gets it right before the experts.
Andre, your ability to read George Zimmerman’s mind is astonishing!
Okay, what am I thinking now?
We all know what you’re thinking Ralph, and it’s a good thing you kept it to yourself or RF would have to ban you for life.
I don’t have a crystal ball or mind reading abilities, but what I do have is experience, and as I have stated I have a unique perspective. I am offering my unique perspective in this forum out of respect for the information that I have gleaned from this forum as it relates to The Truth About Guns.
That said for the sake of argument I apologize for giving you the impression that I am reading Zimmermans mind.
As far as what you are thinking, I hope that you are thinking that this is not a gun rights thing it’s not a right to self defense thing or even a standing your ground thing. I hope you are thinking hat this is a case of a person who wanted to be a crime fighter and perhaps he got too deep into it and felt that he had found his calling and did a monumentally stupid thing and needs to own up to his mistake in judgement, perception, and responsibility.
Several months ago while cleaning out my garage armed with my edc a neighbors alarm began going off about 5 doors away from my house. I could have grabbed any number of other weapons at my disposal long ones and short ones of MANY calibers and loads and gone down the block to crime fight but I called 911 and directed the police to the location unfortunately when the police arrived they came to investigate my garage cleaning as the scene of the crime fortunately for me I was still watching the neighbors house and not working in the garage because I would have been shot. Yeah the cop drove up and as soon as he saw the black man at the house with the garage up and the boxes in front he got out gun drawn ignored the dispatchers report of the alarm which was still blaring five houses away. Yeah he admitted that he almost dropped the ball. Was he racially profiling? Let’s just say that he forgot his training temporarily. He was more upset about it than I was for sure. Not a good thing to shoot the person calling 911 on a Saturday morning who is cleaning out his garage. Why I didn’t get shot is that I knew that once I gave the dispatcher my address and the address of the alarm there was a potential for a mistake and because I know that I am the only black person living on my street. Since its been a couple of years since a neighbor called the cops on me (that’s another story caols routinely were called when I moved in one cop surmised that it was because of the 3 mercedes in the driveway) most cops would see me as out of place. So with hands up and visible I said wrong house sir the alarm is down the street I am the person who called 911. Had I been working in the garage and been walking out of the garage with something in my hand if I hadn’t been shot I would definitely have been ordered to the ground or etc. Not mind reading it’s understanding what people think and how they react to their perceptions.
For once, just once, can someone of other than Anglo-Saxon descent believe that the reason why the cops stopped to talk to them was because they saw something out of the ordinary. And not think it was completely, entirely, and unequivocally racially motivated? “Oh woe is me, I was targeted because I was black”. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the officer responding to the report of an alarm and noticed someone removing items from a garage. It HAD to be because you were black. I’m sure as soon as he pulled up he thought to himself, “I have to shoot this guy no matter what. Screw the investigation. A black guy. BANG!” Or maybe it was because your address matched the address that was relayed to him by the dispatcher. You gave the dispatcher your address, right? Because “the caller is at… and the alarm is at…” have never been transposed, ever. In your mind, you are black and use it as a crutch. Everyone is against you because of the color of your skin. It’s a great way to go through life. Take a step back and look at the facts. FLAME DELETED
Sorry to bust your every black man feels he is targeted theory. I am not that guy but I am not naive enough to think that there aren’t bigots of every variety. The addresses weren’t transposed at all. The cop made a mistake and confused the addresses. He figured the open garage was the spot of the break in and the house that looked like it was buttoned up tight was not the break in location even though the alarm was blaring like a train horn. The instant he saw me he assumed that he had caught the burglar and completely forgot whether he was looking for the address of the person who reported the alarm or the address of the alarm. I have no idea which he set out to do but the fact is that he was wrong.
Racial profiling does exist believe it or not. I can give you lists of examples but I wouldn’t want to waste bandwidth on that subject on this site. As I said the officer was more upset than I was that he pulled his weapon on me erroneously and some of the excuses he gave led me to believe and understand that he had ridden by my house in the past and based on the vehicles in the driveway assumed that somebody that didn’t look like me lived in the house. He even said that he thought he had seen everyone on the street as it was his regular area but he had never seen me. I told him that I travel alot and when I am home I am working since I work from home and don’t do yard work and was cleaning the garage out for the first time in the 3 years that I have lived here.
Nobody is asking for special treatment or privileges but you shouldn’t think that racism has gone away and that everyone has the same opportunities for success in life because that is simply not true. I happen to be black and a solid citizen with several businesses and am the only black American on my street and enjoy minding my own business and couldn’t tell you the name of one neighbor and it has nothing to do with race it has to do with being me. Though I don’t know my neighbors I speak to them all in passing and if someone gets broken into it could just as easily been my house so I will report it without going vigilante. That is the American way. Watch each others back, work for what you have. Not everyone treats people the way that they want to be treated.
Again for the sake of argument I am so sorry and apologize for giving you the impression that I am some black man disgusted with my miserable life of being trapped in my black skin. That is so not that case I am in fact the proudest of black people you will ever meet. I am an achiever I make things happen pity is not in my DNA.
You have offered your insight into the character of Zimmerman, and found a racist “cop wanna-be”, based on some of the conflicting evidence and hearsay available. There may be real evidence to support that claim, I am not sure. What you failed to do was to attempt an analysis of Martin’s character, based on the conflicting evidence and hearsay about him.
Was he the “sweet little boy” he was painted to be in the Media, and even on the floor of Congress? Some of the “evidence” would contradict that image. He was visiting there because he was suspended from school for the third time, according to some reports. This time it was possession of a marijuana pipe and residue. Previously, it was graffiti of “WTF” caught on tape, in some area of the school where he was not permitted. Subsequent to being caught for that offense, his backpack was searched for the graffiti instrument. What was found was far more incriminating. A watch, and various items of jewelry, including diamond earrings, were found along with a screwdriver. Martin claimed an un-named “friend” gave him the stuff. The police are supposedly checking to see if the jewelry was stolen. I have not found any details on his first suspension flying around, but give it time and somebody will say something “off the record”.
Then we have Martin’s Facebook activity which disappeared very quickly after his death. I haven’t found anything more about that, except in an indirect way. There was an interesting tweet on Martin’s brother’s page, sent to Martin, to the effect of “I can’t believe you swung on a bus driver”. Did Martin assault a bus driver? Would that indicate a “sweet little boy”? More likely a “hoodlum wanna-be”.
In the end, we may find that Zimmerman, the “cop wanna-be” and Martin, the “hoodlum wanna-be” were on a collision course that could only end in violence. They may have been two different forms of aggressor, a sort of matter and anti-matter which must annihilate each other.
The only way to know who did what to whom, is to gather the hard evidence and sworn testimony. I await the results of the on-going investigation, and suspend all judgment until then, in spite of Maher’s certainty of his opinions. If he is wrong, I will ridicule him mercilessly at every opportunity.
Andre…
I can’t disagree… or agree… YET. And, I don’t think anyone here is standing behind Zimmerman. Rather, most of us (if not all) are standing behind the LAW and JUSTICE SYSTEM. None of us has passed judgement, because we are in no position to do so (without all the facts). We are not standing behind Zimmerman when we castigate the likes of Mahr, Sharpton, or Spike Lee. We are simply saying that THEY shouldn’t jump to conclusions, just as we shouldn’t.
THEY don’t know any more than WE do (regardless of celebrity status). Furthermore, as “celebrities” and “luminaries,” THEY should refrain from inciting a lynch mob. Their reckless behavior is gas on the fire. They should be ashamed at the very least. Personally, I think what they are doing is the equivalent of yelling “fire” in a crowded movie theater (when there isn’t one). It’s reckless. It’s irresponsible. And, it should be CRIMINAL.
I heard Al Sharpton say a couple things that I find interesting first he said he came because the parents asked him as they were getting no results getting the police or prosecutors to investigate. He brought national exposure which has led to some action. This was a closed case and from all of he evidence coming to light I would be hard pressed to have anyone tell me that this case was over by a long shot.
Secondly he said he is not a lawyer or a police officer and not any sort of legal expert he is simply saying that if anyone else had killed an unarmed person after being told that we don’t need you to do that ie follow someone they would have had to tell it to the judge. The police department would not have arbitrarily decided to not process the crime scene or conduct a thorough investigation.
Not much more to be said about that. Take the case to trial.
Why is everyone saying a white guy shot a black guy? Zimmerman is half White half Hispanic. He is as white as the president. People get upset when, because of his name, some people make the inference (wrongly) that Obama is Muslim. But I guess the same rules don’t apply if the surname is Zimmerman.
Mestizo, not Hispanic.
There is no such thing as half white half Hispanic. Hispanic means that a person is of Spanish speaking decent. There are black, and white people that are Hispanic. I live here in south Florida and you will be amazed to see some of the people around hear and to know where they are from and what language the speak. I have a black female friend of cuban descent born in the U.S. Virgin Islands with the last name Stanislaus. A black cuban/Carribean us citizen born hispanic woman with a polish name. In south Florida if Zimmerman wants to fill out any questionnaire asking for race he would be justified in checking the white/hispanic box, the Hispanic box, in Mississippi he would likely be seen as black or where I grew up we would refer to him as that light skinned guy and if he spoke Spanish we could say puerto rican or Mexican. The point is he is going to identify with whatever he psychologically wants to identify as. Some folks simplify it some complicate it. Obama simplifies it, Tiger Woods complicates it but it is to each his own. I consider myself black but the truth is that I am mixed with a multitude of things that are verifiable all of the way back to the doomsday book and Slavery in the 1600’s. Things get especially complicated when I introduce people to my relatives that are white. Lastly if you want a twilight zone moment try dating a woman as I once did who was Hispanic and quite beautiful and then meeting her family who freak out because she is dating a black man and all of the folks freaking out are darker than you. That is some serious perception problem going on there.
Mahr doesn’t give a crap about Treyvon Martin, or young black men. If he did, he wouldn’t try to turn this into a partisan attack, and he certainly wouldn’t use it as a foil for his ugly humor.
I don’t say this sort of thing often, but there’s actually something evil about Bill Mahr. It’s not his politics, it’s his maliciousness and insincerity.
These people calling for Zimmerman’s immediate arrest should stop for just a second and realize that arresting Zimmerman too soon COULD result in his acquittal instead of conviction (assuming that the facts fall out that way). Once he’s arrested he has to be either charged or freed, and once he’s charged his “speedy trial” rights kick in. Under Florida law that’s 175 days. The prosecution can’t legally stall for time to do further investigation once he’s charged – they have to do it all before that point. So premature charges would absolutely hurt the case against him.
I agree BUT, it appears that there was no intent for the Sanford police to do anything further on the case. It appears that it wasn’t until the family was able to bring national attention to the case that there was anything further being done. Ask any competent police homicide detective if the shooter would have been in the station in less than an hour like zimmerman was. At the end of the day it appears that the police dropped the ball.
There comes a point in any police investigation where they hand off their findings to the District Attorney, who then either chooses to pursue the case or not. Pursuing the case can mean DA investigation, police investigation or both, but doesn’t necessarily mean immediate arrest.
It’s hard to tell from news reports exactly who did what when in terms of the investigation (and I’m not inclined to spend the amount of time it would take to research that), so I have no opinion as to who may have dropped the ball, or even on whether the ball was dropped. My point is just that, if the investigation was terminated prematurely, that it may not have been the police who terminated it. It could have been the DA or the State’s Attorney, since it was handed to them at some point.
I also have no opinion as to whether the national attention given to this story actually restarted a terminated investigation or simply changed its direction. Those who have the inside scoop on that info (police, DA and SA) are the only ones mostly keeping their mouths shut.
What I do have a very strong opinion on is the belief that the media should NOT be sensationalizing any criminal case by reporting in such a way as to lead public opinion to one conclusion or another, which was done to the extreme in this case. They should stick to factual reporting and let the courts sort out the truth.
Edited to add:
“it appears that there was no intent for the Sanford police to do anything further on the case.” I actually hadn’t heard that part, so it certainly raises a whole new set of questions.
Bill Maher is the reason that I have Showtime in my cable package and not HBO.
IF the Sanford police did not properly investigate, they should be taken to task and heads should roll (though it has been reported that they sent it to the county for prosecution and they chose not to). IF the grand jury finds enough evidence to prosecute GZ, he should be. IF a jury finds him guilty of a crime, he should go to prison. These are all big “ifs”. I do not stand behind George Zimmerman. I simply ask that those answers come through rational, dispassionate means, rather than some blow-hard on TV declaring someone guilty.
Its flawed, but its the only system we have. If we abandon it, we are truly lost, and I fear that many, given the choice, would do so. They terrify me.
The prosecutor can only make a determination to prosecute based on the evidence presented to the prosecutor by the police so if the police have failed to conduct a proper investigation then it’s not unreasonable to have the prosecutor say there is not enough evidence to prosecute.
The issue with the grand jury is the secrecy behind it. Who knows what evidence is presented to he grand jury? It’s secret so you don’t know what evidence they see or who is on the jury. If the police didn’t determine where exactly the initial confront action occurred there could have been multiple crime scenes. If you listen to the tapes it seems that there were multiple locations and vantage points from the various callers and witnesses. In my past life doing investigations I have found that if a crime occurs from a-z if there are multiple witnesses it is unlikely that all of them will report he same thing from a-z even if they were all there at the same time which is rarely the case. When you investigate you piece the stories together and hope to get from a-z from piecing together what everyone says. You can usually tell who is involved, guilty, or lying because that will be the one who is seeing more than everyone else and is seeing it completely different that all of the others. Bottom line is that the police seem to have failed to investigate and are now being accused of correcting the witnesses and pressuring he witnesses as well as coercing the witnesses. All of that is not good. Was it because of some personal relationship between Zimmerman and the police or prosecutor or a family connection. Or could it be that in Sanford being black is an automatic reason for someone who is non black to be able to get help getting away with killing someone black.
Reminds me of the time my female hispanic high school classmate, who was being given a hard time by some other kids for being The only girl on the boys soccer team (she is now one of my best friends 30 years later) said at least I’m not black like him! While pointing at me. I was one of only two blacks on the team. Her point was that she should be accepted on the team because I was accepted. We laugh about it now and she realizes that I was accepted because I was the leading scorer on the team.
Did the police see Zimmerman as being white or Hispanic I don’t know but it seems that they felt at least he isn’t black.
I think I may have to write an autobiography at some point.
You already believe that George Zimmerman conspired to “kill the next black man that he saw in that neighborhood that was there to commit a crime.” So, I have to ask this question:
Are you trying to discredit the grand jury before it’s even come to a decision on whether to indict or not indict George Zimmerman?
There are good reasons why they are secret.
Andre, I’ll not comment on your speculations, except to say that they are at this point….. “speculative”.
The State of Florida, and the US DOJ are already investigating. I’ll be interested in what they have to say about all this, however it may turn out.
If their findings damn Zimmerman, or the Sanford police department, I’ll not weep for either. I have no dog in this fight. Except for the rule of law. In the end, it’s all that separates us from simians.
Well said, Mike S.
I for one, refuse to fall into what I see as a trap. The Media would like to see this incident polarize the country into pro-Martin/pro-Zimmerman camps at each other’s throats, on the basis of half-truths, selective and slanted reporting, appeals to emotion, creative editing, etc. — all the tricks of the propaganda mill that used to be the free Press.
I caugh some of his gun rant. Won’t be watching Bill anymore. For a closet liberitian he has some odd views. People who own and use guns are normal despite what a few may think.
I got tired of his overall bigotry. His bullshit that all Muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists, all Christians are stupid, all other religions childish nonsense, and everyone in fly over land are inbred hicks wears very thin very fast.
This whole thing has the following simple absolute facts and anything else is conjecture: ( There are two persons “A” and “B”):
1- “A” sees “B” from his truck.
2- “A” Calls 911 to report a certain behavior of “B”.
3- “A” Is told not to follow “B” by 911.
4- “A” Follows “B”.
5- “A” Shoots “B”.
6- “A” is questioned by police.
7- “A” is released.
Thats it.
How do we now feel about the quick release of “A” given the death of “B”?
This is inaccurate. There was an investigation, not a simple questioning. You either don’t know or don’t care to know the facts.
Zimmerman was detained on scene and disarmed. He willingly came to the police station with the officers. He voluntarily underwent interrogation, without legal counsel, from two experienced detectives. After that, the investigation continued. The detectives took him back to the scene the next day and had him re-enact the shooting. I’m sure even MORE than that occurred since we only have a partial police report available to us at this time and the occasional media leak.
Actually “A” is told. “We don’t need you to do that” even though the dispatcher, has no authority to give orders in the first place.
And you left out the part about “B” on top of and beating “A”
And when you say “A is questioned by police“ You left out. Along with 13 others
Theres often times people are shot or even murdered and the police “know” they did it but dont have enough evidence to do anything about it. And im assuming and hoping the police have photos of GZ injuries no matter how major or minor they may be. And this is definitely about race. The media is the most money hungry POS. There is no longer an unbiased media left in the world. And has anyone else thought about the riots to take place when and if GZ is found innocent.
He’s fucked either way.
And has anyone else thought about the riots to take place when and if GZ is found innocent.
Oh, there will be riots.
But I am not much into mobocracy.
Question of the Day on this topic up at 10AM EST.
This guy was some “great” neighbor. Just look at the list of his 911 calls. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html a real nice neighborly guy. Calls to the police for kids playing in the street, parties at the club house in the community “there are 50 people partying at the club house I don’t think they live here, a pit bull came up to attack me aggressively but then ran away, the music is loud”. Heaven forbid you decide to leave your garage door open he might have called in the SWAT team! The only thing he called for semi important was the various pothole in the street calls.thisnguy called about people driving on the highway.
This guy reminds me of the busy body neighbor I once had when I lived in Richmond Va. This lady shoved the condo association rules under my door the first day that I moved in. I had a job traveling to various cities in 22 states for a now defunct major electronics retailer. I was litterally home a total of 4-7 days per month. The very first time that I turned on my living room television I had the police pounding on my door with this lady in tow for a noise disturbance. I had the kind of fit that one should have just once and let this woman and the police know that we weren’t going to have that issue again! From then on she never mocked on my door or called the police. Sometimes you gotta help people understand that it’s called a community for a reason. People should commune.
Zimmerman was empowered by the association to be crime watch captain or chief or whatever they called it. He was trying to control the neighborhood and someone shouldmhavebtold him thank you but go get a life and perhaps he wouldn’t have placed himself in a situation to take one.
I mean seriously, who calls the police on children playing in the street? When is the last time you did that? I’m not sure where he worked if at all but he was wearing many hats. He needed to start a security company, a public works company, a private investigations company, a child protection agency, and a few other jobs.
Nietzsche’s existentialism is by far my favorite He is more of an influence in today’s world than all other existentialists In a general sense, I take this from his works: Life, is OUR Not some holy being’s, and it’s up to us to rise above our animal nature and make it a great It’s a shame that he had to experience so much on the suffering side of things But, I believe his life illustrates that life is pain as Fuck, I miss going to philosophy classes high,
Bill is wrong on this issue, what else can you say? This is not and should not be about race. But because cops are not coming clean with what they know, and what little “evidence” surfaces it seems contradictory, thus the people feel outraged. They feel that cops are once again against them, which may or may not be true. Not to mention that this is fueled by the unbelievably unprofessional reporting by the mainstream media. The public opinion has reached a verdict. They will cling to however little they know about the case to support that verdict. And as I’ve said, because cops have not laid their evidence on the table for people to see, both the media and the people make it more about race than anything else with their inflammatory rhetoric. Maybe Zimmerman should go to jail, maybe not. But this should not be up to CNN or Fox or Bill to decide.
This is an active case. The full reports will be released when it’s appropriate to release them.
ok, but perhaps some sort of a statement would help to calm down the public? I mean, you have dupes like Spike Lee giving away the guy’s (wrong) address, the Black Panthers set a bounty on him, everyone else is ready to hang him. If the cops believe that based on what they have Zimmerman did nothing wrong, then can’t they say something like that?
That would taint the jury pool. If the jury pool has all watched the police department publicly state that he did nothing wrong that would influence the jurors opinion as much as or more than any evidence presented in a court of law. Also since the investigation is still on going it would be premature for them to make any statement about guilt or innocence at this time.
Why is the unprofessional reporting unbelievable?
Reporters have always been lowlife selfish backstabbing uncaring scum.
“Ten minutes ago a meteor fell from the sky crushing Mrs. Jones home, killing her husband and five children.
Mrs. Jones tell me and the rest of the world, how do you feel at this moment?
I agree with most of your sentiments, but there is one thing I would like to add to your post: for many African-Americans, the police and the judicial system are simply not trusted. This mistrust of the police is as imbued into them as an Irishman’s distrust of the English. And in many ways this is a rational prejudice. Let’s pretend that the last 50 years of America’s history was perfect unbiased and absolutely prejudice free. That half-century of perfection would not erase the centuries of legal and extra-legal maltreatment by the judicial system.
If we just think of lynchings, we can see why this may be true? Some 5,000 people were lynched in the US (around a quarter of these were not African American). These extra-legal killings were done without fear of prosecution and were done in a way to emphasize the powerlessness of the African-American community (and to the poor whites, hispanics, and immigrants who were also killed). The mobs would often drag the victims through the African-American neighborhoods to drive this point home. It is a disgusting reality that pictures of many lynchings were turned into postcards and sent through the US Mail. The judicial system did nothing to stop these acts–and southern US Senators (Democrats, remember, they used to be the conservative party) blocked federal laws that would have outlawed lynchings.
Those injustices linger in the memory of people for generations after the practices stop. Don’t believe me? Ask an Irishman what he or she thinks of Cromwell and see if this is true.
Cromwell had some good ideas, just the execution was silly putty.
Which ideas were good? The bashing in of Jesuits’ heads? Ending the celebration of Christmas? Selling Irishmen into slavery? I am not sure about killing CharlesI . . . it depends on the day how I feel about that one.
I actually had Oliver Cromwell in mind. Thomas Cromwell was a bit of a bitch.
Florida apparently has some of the most far reaching freedom of information laws on the books today. The prosecutor has placed a special enactment to keep records sealed.
This is both good and bad. If they feel they have enough to prosecute then they want enough information to hopefully have an untainted jury.
Unfortunately it also makes it look like they are stone walling etc. My hope is they will fast track what ever it is they need and either go to a grand jury or unseal the records to state why they find him innocent. At least at that point it might put everyone at ease.
I used to like this moron and he can be funny at times, but he doesn’t have a clue.
I tried to watch the video. I got through two minutes, and the abject stupidity just makes me want to hurl.
“Is there any doubt (that Zimmerman is lying) based on this tape?”
Oh, I see… these clowns are now forensic experts who have “NO DOUBT” about the “evidence,” and are ready to get the noose ready based on the grainy garage tape. So, I simply could not waste any more brain cells and time listening to these morons. Two minutes was all I could take.
+ 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
That was exactly my reaction, but I’m not sure I made the two (2) minute mark.
This baffoon only cares about being popular and funny.
Which side of the argument gets the most applause and laughs.
I agree with both the above comments. I tried to make it through the whole clip, but couldn’t stand it enough to.
Would that be the altered tape that the ABC and NBC showed, with the banners over the back of Zimmerman’s head and nose? Or the ACTUAL HD tape that clearly shows something wrong with both of those areas? Did they review the altered 911 tape that implies that Zimmerman was recially profiling, or the ACTUAL 911 transcript where he was clearly asking a question?
If ( when) needed , where can Mr. Zimmerman hope to find twelve (12) fair and impartial jurors?
There’s no such thing as fair an impartial, which is why both the justice system and the SCOTUS are little more than obscured iron fists.
A drooling leftist demanding emotional reaction and scoffing at the concept of true justice while dismissing any opposing viewpoint? Color me surprised.
This useful idiot has become like Moore…the only people left who listen to him are as fanatically idiotic as he is.
There are also drooling rightists… Plenty of partisan hacks on both sides of this issue. People on the same side are too slow to censure their own morons, and too quick to point fingers at the other side’s jackoffs.
If you can’t think of three or four folks on the right who are just as bad as Maher, Moore, etc.. then you’re blinded by your own partisanship. If you can.. then congrats.. you’re one of the few truly rational human beings.
We are all hostage to our own biases… cases like this really bring it out.
And if the grand jury finds the evidence too thin to indict, then what? Just keep yelling about racism? Whenever someone is THAT sure of another man’s guilt, without a trial, what you’ve got is the beginnings of a lynch mob.
Beginnings? The lynch mob is HERE. And, it’s being led by “luminaries” like Spike Lee, Roseanne Barr, Rev. Sharpton, Bill Mahr, et al. And, they are eagerly followed by those who seek to claim some delusional moral high ground and apparently have nothing else in their lives that gives them any feeling of significance.
This is a tough case for me. As I believe in the second amendment, I am an NRA member, a ccw holder, former law enforcement, frequent reader of TTAG, but I also, have known Trayvons mother since 2007 (we have several mutual friends), I live in south Florida, am black, and heck I might as well admit that I went to an all white private school and still voted for Obama and am likely to again, even though I make enough money to be a republican….
All of that said I think that Zimmerman is wrong and though he was a ccw holder we should be in an uproar as ccw holders because NOBODY that I know white or black that is a ccw holder would have done this. For him to report all of the crap that he did on the 911 call then turn around and end up in someone’s yard with this kid dead is ridiculous. Everyone please stop thinking that this case is going to be about the right to carry. It’s about folks ignoring that this guy was unhinged. Listen to the call he threw everything but the kitchen sink into it…
He is checking me out, he is looking at all of the houses, he has his hand in his waist band, he has something in his hand all of that while in the car, then he gets out and follows. Ask yourself, who does that? A real concerned citizen who carries for defense only, drives away gets distance and reports. IMO he was setting up the tape so that he could have a justified shooting. I would be inclined to accept this if he had shot him from the car using stand your ground because someone approached him while in the car with their hand in their waist band and holding something in their hand. Then perhaps we wold be debating a mistake in judgement regarding what was in the hand but the I felt threatened and feared for my life might fly.
Also why disconnect from 911? Keep 911 on the line and sit in your car when the person approaches let the entire encounter be recorded by 911. Zimmerman hung up because he didn’t want 911 to hear that he was following Trayon. IMO Zimmerman wanted to be a cop so bad that he wanted to make that neighborhood his own police force. I want to know how many police departments he applied for? If he did why did he not join? I’m betting it’s because he didn’t pass some departments psych evaluation?
This guy is not the one to stand behind when it comes to protecting gun rights. He got himself into this and since the very beginning folks have been trying to help him get out of this. This case stinks he should go to jail IMO second degree murder (I’m not a lawyer) I say second because I feel he didn’t plan to kill Trayvon specifically but I feel he prepared in is mind a scenario of how to kill the next black man that he saw in that neighborhood that was there to commit a crime. He thought it through before and when the opportunity came he put it into motion when he called the police.
“I feel he didn’t plan to kill Trayvon specifically but I feel he prepared in is mind a scenario of how to kill the next black man that he saw in that neighborhood that was there to commit a crime.”
Your argument had some merit until this part. What is there about Zimmerman or his actions that would suggest he was targeting black men? Are you saying the results would have been different if the person he followed was Hispanic, Indian or Arab?
I am saying that from what I have learned many of his reports and calls to the police and to neighbors involved black males. These stories may very well have been true I don’t know. It is reasonable to think that if I live in a gated neighborhood that continues to be infiltrated by folks that happen to be black from the surrounding community (a quite depressed one at that take a walk down the street from the Sanford police station it looks like the fifties) that one would prepare to defend against a black person. The question is whether he was racially profiling or if he was playing the law of averages? That’s all that I am saying his past actions and/or encounters shaped his thinking. There have been many examples of how people have said on 911 calls that a black person did it or even a white person did only because it made the story more believable to them or it made the lie easier for others to believe. Again I think race played a part in it but not more than his desire to be a super cop. I think the police failing to do a real investigation was an even bigger problem. Just offering my opinion in an effort to assist my fellow ccw gun owners that may care to know what someone who is black that shares at least one commonality.
Thanks, that’s much clearer.
You are welcome. Too answer the other part of your question, I think that Zimmerman could just have easily shot anyone no matter their race, nationality, or color if he presumed that they were what he perceived them to be. I feel he was a loose cannon that was allowed to behave as a vigilante because he was seen as helpful and willing to do what other folks in the community were not. I just don’t want it to be a gun rights issue. It is a Zimmerman issue. The police department coming to his aid so to speak by not doing a proper investigation is the problem. They should have done their jobs and let the chips fall where they may. There wouldn’t have been this uproar had they investigated.
“I just don’t want it to be a gun rights issue. It is a Zimmerman issue.” I agree! This case has nothing to do with the SYG law, CCW laws, or gun rights in any way. I would argue, though, that it’s also a Martin issue. And both issues should be sorted out by the courts, not by the media or armchair investigators.
I don’t consider it a Martin issue. Because as far as I know Trayvon simply walked to the store for a drink and some candy and was chatting with his girlfriend on the phone. The 911 tape shows that Zimmerman in his own voice was following Trayvon. Pursuing someone or following someone does not a victim make. If I had been walking in the dark in the rain and some bozo in a car was following me then he got out and followed me and I tried to evade him but walking faster or even running and he still pursued me there would have been a real serious problem. When does one have the constitutional right to pursue someone and confront them and shoot them? This case is not right and I think that the police should have treated it just like a homicide. Never seen a homicide scene cleared in less than an hour. Zimmerman called the police got into a fight shot someone and the police arrived found the body perhaps tried o administer some sort of aid then treated Zimmerman for his broken nose and his head wound then got witness statements and his statement then got him to the police station where by the way they didn’t book him or process his clothes and etc. all in under an hour? The police are on the scene of a some traffic accidents longer than that!
Zimmerman should have been arrested and had to tell his story to the judge and the jury!
The first paragraph is useless information meant to appeal to people who you seem to think care about such things.
In the second paragraph you state several things that merit questioning. “NOBODY that I know white or black that is a ccw holder would have done this.” Done what, exactly? And who is saying that this case is going to be about the right to carry? I’ve seen people worried about the effects this tragedy may have on the Stand Your Ground law (which might not even be applicable in this case), but nothing about the right to carry. Also, do you have proof that George Zimmerman is “unhinged”? What is your definiton of unhinged? Is unhinged a legitimate medical definition? Are you a psychiatrist that has evaluated George Zimmerman?
Moving on to the third paragraph. And who does that? Neighborhood Watch people, apparently. Who says a Neighborhood Watch person can’t carry for defense as well? Furthermore you imply that George Zimmerman was not “a real concerned citizen.” Proof? Then you go on to further say that you believe Zimmerman was involved in setting up some elaborate conspiracy just to shoot someone. Do you believe George Zimmerman is a criminal mastermind able to outwit trained investigators?
You can have your opinions, you’re entitled to them. But you cannot have your own facts. Furthermore, IMO, opinions not based on facts are just about worthless.
My question to you is did you listen to the 911 calls that were released? Listen to Zimmermans report and tell me honestly that you don’t think it is plausible for him to have fabricated any of the behaviors reported especially given the fact that it appears that the kid was on the phone with a girl and had an iced tea and a bag of skittles. After that let’s debate what I said.
I think Zimmerman is a want to be hero/cop and he screwed up and killed someone that was unarmed and clearly not a threat to him. I have experienced people who wanted to help me solve crimes before and voila they turned out to be the criminals.
Stand your ground is very applicable in this case because it appears that it was the reason they let him go.
How about you let me know why you think he was justified in your own opinion rather than criticize me for having an opinion at all that is unique to my thoughts.
Zimmerman listed various opinions in his short 911 call. The guy on drugs, they always get away, he’s up to something, he has something in his hands, and etc.
The first paragraph was written because it is true if I wanted to I could have never written anything here and could have simply gone on the radio and had a discussion about it. In fact I am going to do that and invite you to participate.
I did listen to the 911 call Zimmerman made and it is possible he wasn’t correctly reporting things. I’ve never said that it wasn’t. Nor do I know if Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time or whatever. All of this will eventually come out.
You think Zimmerman is a wannabe cop based on what? Your own personal opinion. Okay, but where are the facts? Is everyone who calls to report a suspicious person in their neighborhood a wannabe cop? Are all neighborhood watch people wannabe cops? If you stupidly follow someone to try to see where they went, after they ran away from you, does that make you a wannabe cop? What makes a person a “wannabe cop”?
SYG is not the reason they let Zimmerman go. They let him go because the prosecutor didn’t think they had a case based on the information he was provided with.
Furthermore, I DON’T KNOW IF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS JUSTIFIED. I’m waiting for the full police report, the determination of the grand jury, etc. before I weigh in on it. It’s called being responsible and objective.
What radio show are you going to be on? Provide the contact info and a place to listen online and I’ll consider it.
I will provide the link on here after I confirm that I will be on the air. It will be tonight or next Sunday night. Check back in here at 11:15 est. show starts at 11pm and goes till 1am est.
I will even list a number if you would like to call in to participate in the show.
I am glad you are waiting for the full police report the problem is that since the police didn’t do a typical investigation there is going to be very little in the report. We are talking about a situation in which the father reported the child missing and didn’t find out until 3 days later that his son was already in the morgue killed the same night he reported him missing. Nobody in the police department thought to check his phone to see if he had made a call. Or attempt to notify a next of kin. They listed him as a John doe.
I think Andre is on the money with this. Yes, we are speculating because we don’t have all of the facts/evidence. But based on what is available to the public, Zimmerman keeps looking worse and worse. There are now audio experts trying to match the yells for help heard in the background to Zimmerman’s voice, and coming up as negative. Yeah, this is all part of the crowdsourced sideshow, but sometimes the crowd gets it right before the experts.
Andre, your ability to read George Zimmerman’s mind is astonishing!
Okay, what am I thinking now?
We all know what you’re thinking Ralph, and it’s a good thing you kept it to yourself or RF would have to ban you for life.
I don’t have a crystal ball or mind reading abilities, but what I do have is experience, and as I have stated I have a unique perspective. I am offering my unique perspective in this forum out of respect for the information that I have gleaned from this forum as it relates to The Truth About Guns.
That said for the sake of argument I apologize for giving you the impression that I am reading Zimmermans mind.
As far as what you are thinking, I hope that you are thinking that this is not a gun rights thing it’s not a right to self defense thing or even a standing your ground thing. I hope you are thinking hat this is a case of a person who wanted to be a crime fighter and perhaps he got too deep into it and felt that he had found his calling and did a monumentally stupid thing and needs to own up to his mistake in judgement, perception, and responsibility.
Several months ago while cleaning out my garage armed with my edc a neighbors alarm began going off about 5 doors away from my house. I could have grabbed any number of other weapons at my disposal long ones and short ones of MANY calibers and loads and gone down the block to crime fight but I called 911 and directed the police to the location unfortunately when the police arrived they came to investigate my garage cleaning as the scene of the crime fortunately for me I was still watching the neighbors house and not working in the garage because I would have been shot. Yeah the cop drove up and as soon as he saw the black man at the house with the garage up and the boxes in front he got out gun drawn ignored the dispatchers report of the alarm which was still blaring five houses away. Yeah he admitted that he almost dropped the ball. Was he racially profiling? Let’s just say that he forgot his training temporarily. He was more upset about it than I was for sure. Not a good thing to shoot the person calling 911 on a Saturday morning who is cleaning out his garage. Why I didn’t get shot is that I knew that once I gave the dispatcher my address and the address of the alarm there was a potential for a mistake and because I know that I am the only black person living on my street. Since its been a couple of years since a neighbor called the cops on me (that’s another story caols routinely were called when I moved in one cop surmised that it was because of the 3 mercedes in the driveway) most cops would see me as out of place. So with hands up and visible I said wrong house sir the alarm is down the street I am the person who called 911. Had I been working in the garage and been walking out of the garage with something in my hand if I hadn’t been shot I would definitely have been ordered to the ground or etc. Not mind reading it’s understanding what people think and how they react to their perceptions.
For once, just once, can someone of other than Anglo-Saxon descent believe that the reason why the cops stopped to talk to them was because they saw something out of the ordinary. And not think it was completely, entirely, and unequivocally racially motivated? “Oh woe is me, I was targeted because I was black”. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the officer responding to the report of an alarm and noticed someone removing items from a garage. It HAD to be because you were black. I’m sure as soon as he pulled up he thought to himself, “I have to shoot this guy no matter what. Screw the investigation. A black guy. BANG!” Or maybe it was because your address matched the address that was relayed to him by the dispatcher. You gave the dispatcher your address, right? Because “the caller is at… and the alarm is at…” have never been transposed, ever. In your mind, you are black and use it as a crutch. Everyone is against you because of the color of your skin. It’s a great way to go through life. Take a step back and look at the facts. FLAME DELETED
Sorry to bust your every black man feels he is targeted theory. I am not that guy but I am not naive enough to think that there aren’t bigots of every variety. The addresses weren’t transposed at all. The cop made a mistake and confused the addresses. He figured the open garage was the spot of the break in and the house that looked like it was buttoned up tight was not the break in location even though the alarm was blaring like a train horn. The instant he saw me he assumed that he had caught the burglar and completely forgot whether he was looking for the address of the person who reported the alarm or the address of the alarm. I have no idea which he set out to do but the fact is that he was wrong.
Racial profiling does exist believe it or not. I can give you lists of examples but I wouldn’t want to waste bandwidth on that subject on this site. As I said the officer was more upset than I was that he pulled his weapon on me erroneously and some of the excuses he gave led me to believe and understand that he had ridden by my house in the past and based on the vehicles in the driveway assumed that somebody that didn’t look like me lived in the house. He even said that he thought he had seen everyone on the street as it was his regular area but he had never seen me. I told him that I travel alot and when I am home I am working since I work from home and don’t do yard work and was cleaning the garage out for the first time in the 3 years that I have lived here.
Nobody is asking for special treatment or privileges but you shouldn’t think that racism has gone away and that everyone has the same opportunities for success in life because that is simply not true. I happen to be black and a solid citizen with several businesses and am the only black American on my street and enjoy minding my own business and couldn’t tell you the name of one neighbor and it has nothing to do with race it has to do with being me. Though I don’t know my neighbors I speak to them all in passing and if someone gets broken into it could just as easily been my house so I will report it without going vigilante. That is the American way. Watch each others back, work for what you have. Not everyone treats people the way that they want to be treated.
Again for the sake of argument I am so sorry and apologize for giving you the impression that I am some black man disgusted with my miserable life of being trapped in my black skin. That is so not that case I am in fact the proudest of black people you will ever meet. I am an achiever I make things happen pity is not in my DNA.
You have offered your insight into the character of Zimmerman, and found a racist “cop wanna-be”, based on some of the conflicting evidence and hearsay available. There may be real evidence to support that claim, I am not sure. What you failed to do was to attempt an analysis of Martin’s character, based on the conflicting evidence and hearsay about him.
Was he the “sweet little boy” he was painted to be in the Media, and even on the floor of Congress? Some of the “evidence” would contradict that image. He was visiting there because he was suspended from school for the third time, according to some reports. This time it was possession of a marijuana pipe and residue. Previously, it was graffiti of “WTF” caught on tape, in some area of the school where he was not permitted. Subsequent to being caught for that offense, his backpack was searched for the graffiti instrument. What was found was far more incriminating. A watch, and various items of jewelry, including diamond earrings, were found along with a screwdriver. Martin claimed an un-named “friend” gave him the stuff. The police are supposedly checking to see if the jewelry was stolen. I have not found any details on his first suspension flying around, but give it time and somebody will say something “off the record”.
Then we have Martin’s Facebook activity which disappeared very quickly after his death. I haven’t found anything more about that, except in an indirect way. There was an interesting tweet on Martin’s brother’s page, sent to Martin, to the effect of “I can’t believe you swung on a bus driver”. Did Martin assault a bus driver? Would that indicate a “sweet little boy”? More likely a “hoodlum wanna-be”.
In the end, we may find that Zimmerman, the “cop wanna-be” and Martin, the “hoodlum wanna-be” were on a collision course that could only end in violence. They may have been two different forms of aggressor, a sort of matter and anti-matter which must annihilate each other.
The only way to know who did what to whom, is to gather the hard evidence and sworn testimony. I await the results of the on-going investigation, and suspend all judgment until then, in spite of Maher’s certainty of his opinions. If he is wrong, I will ridicule him mercilessly at every opportunity.
Andre…
I can’t disagree… or agree… YET. And, I don’t think anyone here is standing behind Zimmerman. Rather, most of us (if not all) are standing behind the LAW and JUSTICE SYSTEM. None of us has passed judgement, because we are in no position to do so (without all the facts). We are not standing behind Zimmerman when we castigate the likes of Mahr, Sharpton, or Spike Lee. We are simply saying that THEY shouldn’t jump to conclusions, just as we shouldn’t.
THEY don’t know any more than WE do (regardless of celebrity status). Furthermore, as “celebrities” and “luminaries,” THEY should refrain from inciting a lynch mob. Their reckless behavior is gas on the fire. They should be ashamed at the very least. Personally, I think what they are doing is the equivalent of yelling “fire” in a crowded movie theater (when there isn’t one). It’s reckless. It’s irresponsible. And, it should be CRIMINAL.
I heard Al Sharpton say a couple things that I find interesting first he said he came because the parents asked him as they were getting no results getting the police or prosecutors to investigate. He brought national exposure which has led to some action. This was a closed case and from all of he evidence coming to light I would be hard pressed to have anyone tell me that this case was over by a long shot.
Secondly he said he is not a lawyer or a police officer and not any sort of legal expert he is simply saying that if anyone else had killed an unarmed person after being told that we don’t need you to do that ie follow someone they would have had to tell it to the judge. The police department would not have arbitrarily decided to not process the crime scene or conduct a thorough investigation.
Not much more to be said about that. Take the case to trial.
Why is everyone saying a white guy shot a black guy? Zimmerman is half White half Hispanic. He is as white as the president. People get upset when, because of his name, some people make the inference (wrongly) that Obama is Muslim. But I guess the same rules don’t apply if the surname is Zimmerman.
Mestizo, not Hispanic.
There is no such thing as half white half Hispanic. Hispanic means that a person is of Spanish speaking decent. There are black, and white people that are Hispanic. I live here in south Florida and you will be amazed to see some of the people around hear and to know where they are from and what language the speak. I have a black female friend of cuban descent born in the U.S. Virgin Islands with the last name Stanislaus. A black cuban/Carribean us citizen born hispanic woman with a polish name. In south Florida if Zimmerman wants to fill out any questionnaire asking for race he would be justified in checking the white/hispanic box, the Hispanic box, in Mississippi he would likely be seen as black or where I grew up we would refer to him as that light skinned guy and if he spoke Spanish we could say puerto rican or Mexican. The point is he is going to identify with whatever he psychologically wants to identify as. Some folks simplify it some complicate it. Obama simplifies it, Tiger Woods complicates it but it is to each his own. I consider myself black but the truth is that I am mixed with a multitude of things that are verifiable all of the way back to the doomsday book and Slavery in the 1600’s. Things get especially complicated when I introduce people to my relatives that are white. Lastly if you want a twilight zone moment try dating a woman as I once did who was Hispanic and quite beautiful and then meeting her family who freak out because she is dating a black man and all of the folks freaking out are darker than you. That is some serious perception problem going on there.
Mahr doesn’t give a crap about Treyvon Martin, or young black men. If he did, he wouldn’t try to turn this into a partisan attack, and he certainly wouldn’t use it as a foil for his ugly humor.
I don’t say this sort of thing often, but there’s actually something evil about Bill Mahr. It’s not his politics, it’s his maliciousness and insincerity.
These people calling for Zimmerman’s immediate arrest should stop for just a second and realize that arresting Zimmerman too soon COULD result in his acquittal instead of conviction (assuming that the facts fall out that way). Once he’s arrested he has to be either charged or freed, and once he’s charged his “speedy trial” rights kick in. Under Florida law that’s 175 days. The prosecution can’t legally stall for time to do further investigation once he’s charged – they have to do it all before that point. So premature charges would absolutely hurt the case against him.
I agree BUT, it appears that there was no intent for the Sanford police to do anything further on the case. It appears that it wasn’t until the family was able to bring national attention to the case that there was anything further being done. Ask any competent police homicide detective if the shooter would have been in the station in less than an hour like zimmerman was. At the end of the day it appears that the police dropped the ball.
There comes a point in any police investigation where they hand off their findings to the District Attorney, who then either chooses to pursue the case or not. Pursuing the case can mean DA investigation, police investigation or both, but doesn’t necessarily mean immediate arrest.
It’s hard to tell from news reports exactly who did what when in terms of the investigation (and I’m not inclined to spend the amount of time it would take to research that), so I have no opinion as to who may have dropped the ball, or even on whether the ball was dropped. My point is just that, if the investigation was terminated prematurely, that it may not have been the police who terminated it. It could have been the DA or the State’s Attorney, since it was handed to them at some point.
I also have no opinion as to whether the national attention given to this story actually restarted a terminated investigation or simply changed its direction. Those who have the inside scoop on that info (police, DA and SA) are the only ones mostly keeping their mouths shut.
What I do have a very strong opinion on is the belief that the media should NOT be sensationalizing any criminal case by reporting in such a way as to lead public opinion to one conclusion or another, which was done to the extreme in this case. They should stick to factual reporting and let the courts sort out the truth.
Edited to add:
“it appears that there was no intent for the Sanford police to do anything further on the case.” I actually hadn’t heard that part, so it certainly raises a whole new set of questions.
Bill Maher is the reason that I have Showtime in my cable package and not HBO.
IF the Sanford police did not properly investigate, they should be taken to task and heads should roll (though it has been reported that they sent it to the county for prosecution and they chose not to). IF the grand jury finds enough evidence to prosecute GZ, he should be. IF a jury finds him guilty of a crime, he should go to prison. These are all big “ifs”. I do not stand behind George Zimmerman. I simply ask that those answers come through rational, dispassionate means, rather than some blow-hard on TV declaring someone guilty.
Its flawed, but its the only system we have. If we abandon it, we are truly lost, and I fear that many, given the choice, would do so. They terrify me.
The prosecutor can only make a determination to prosecute based on the evidence presented to the prosecutor by the police so if the police have failed to conduct a proper investigation then it’s not unreasonable to have the prosecutor say there is not enough evidence to prosecute.
The issue with the grand jury is the secrecy behind it. Who knows what evidence is presented to he grand jury? It’s secret so you don’t know what evidence they see or who is on the jury. If the police didn’t determine where exactly the initial confront action occurred there could have been multiple crime scenes. If you listen to the tapes it seems that there were multiple locations and vantage points from the various callers and witnesses. In my past life doing investigations I have found that if a crime occurs from a-z if there are multiple witnesses it is unlikely that all of them will report he same thing from a-z even if they were all there at the same time which is rarely the case. When you investigate you piece the stories together and hope to get from a-z from piecing together what everyone says. You can usually tell who is involved, guilty, or lying because that will be the one who is seeing more than everyone else and is seeing it completely different that all of the others. Bottom line is that the police seem to have failed to investigate and are now being accused of correcting the witnesses and pressuring he witnesses as well as coercing the witnesses. All of that is not good. Was it because of some personal relationship between Zimmerman and the police or prosecutor or a family connection. Or could it be that in Sanford being black is an automatic reason for someone who is non black to be able to get help getting away with killing someone black.
Reminds me of the time my female hispanic high school classmate, who was being given a hard time by some other kids for being The only girl on the boys soccer team (she is now one of my best friends 30 years later) said at least I’m not black like him! While pointing at me. I was one of only two blacks on the team. Her point was that she should be accepted on the team because I was accepted. We laugh about it now and she realizes that I was accepted because I was the leading scorer on the team.
Did the police see Zimmerman as being white or Hispanic I don’t know but it seems that they felt at least he isn’t black.
I think I may have to write an autobiography at some point.
You already believe that George Zimmerman conspired to “kill the next black man that he saw in that neighborhood that was there to commit a crime.” So, I have to ask this question:
Are you trying to discredit the grand jury before it’s even come to a decision on whether to indict or not indict George Zimmerman?
There are good reasons why they are secret.
Andre, I’ll not comment on your speculations, except to say that they are at this point….. “speculative”.
The State of Florida, and the US DOJ are already investigating. I’ll be interested in what they have to say about all this, however it may turn out.
If their findings damn Zimmerman, or the Sanford police department, I’ll not weep for either. I have no dog in this fight. Except for the rule of law. In the end, it’s all that separates us from simians.
Well said, Mike S.
I for one, refuse to fall into what I see as a trap. The Media would like to see this incident polarize the country into pro-Martin/pro-Zimmerman camps at each other’s throats, on the basis of half-truths, selective and slanted reporting, appeals to emotion, creative editing, etc. — all the tricks of the propaganda mill that used to be the free Press.
I caugh some of his gun rant. Won’t be watching Bill anymore. For a closet liberitian he has some odd views. People who own and use guns are normal despite what a few may think.
I got tired of his overall bigotry. His bullshit that all Muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists, all Christians are stupid, all other religions childish nonsense, and everyone in fly over land are inbred hicks wears very thin very fast.
This whole thing has the following simple absolute facts and anything else is conjecture: ( There are two persons “A” and “B”):
1- “A” sees “B” from his truck.
2- “A” Calls 911 to report a certain behavior of “B”.
3- “A” Is told not to follow “B” by 911.
4- “A” Follows “B”.
5- “A” Shoots “B”.
6- “A” is questioned by police.
7- “A” is released.
Thats it.
How do we now feel about the quick release of “A” given the death of “B”?
This is inaccurate. There was an investigation, not a simple questioning. You either don’t know or don’t care to know the facts.
Zimmerman was detained on scene and disarmed. He willingly came to the police station with the officers. He voluntarily underwent interrogation, without legal counsel, from two experienced detectives. After that, the investigation continued. The detectives took him back to the scene the next day and had him re-enact the shooting. I’m sure even MORE than that occurred since we only have a partial police report available to us at this time and the occasional media leak.
Actually “A” is told. “We don’t need you to do that” even though the dispatcher, has no authority to give orders in the first place.
And you left out the part about “B” on top of and beating “A”
And when you say “A is questioned by police“ You left out. Along with 13 others
Theres often times people are shot or even murdered and the police “know” they did it but dont have enough evidence to do anything about it. And im assuming and hoping the police have photos of GZ injuries no matter how major or minor they may be. And this is definitely about race. The media is the most money hungry POS. There is no longer an unbiased media left in the world. And has anyone else thought about the riots to take place when and if GZ is found innocent.
He’s fucked either way.
And has anyone else thought about the riots to take place when and if GZ is found innocent.
Oh, there will be riots.
But I am not much into mobocracy.
Question of the Day on this topic up at 10AM EST.
This guy was some “great” neighbor. Just look at the list of his 911 calls. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html a real nice neighborly guy. Calls to the police for kids playing in the street, parties at the club house in the community “there are 50 people partying at the club house I don’t think they live here, a pit bull came up to attack me aggressively but then ran away, the music is loud”. Heaven forbid you decide to leave your garage door open he might have called in the SWAT team! The only thing he called for semi important was the various pothole in the street calls.thisnguy called about people driving on the highway.
This guy reminds me of the busy body neighbor I once had when I lived in Richmond Va. This lady shoved the condo association rules under my door the first day that I moved in. I had a job traveling to various cities in 22 states for a now defunct major electronics retailer. I was litterally home a total of 4-7 days per month. The very first time that I turned on my living room television I had the police pounding on my door with this lady in tow for a noise disturbance. I had the kind of fit that one should have just once and let this woman and the police know that we weren’t going to have that issue again! From then on she never mocked on my door or called the police. Sometimes you gotta help people understand that it’s called a community for a reason. People should commune.
Zimmerman was empowered by the association to be crime watch captain or chief or whatever they called it. He was trying to control the neighborhood and someone shouldmhavebtold him thank you but go get a life and perhaps he wouldn’t have placed himself in a situation to take one.
I mean seriously, who calls the police on children playing in the street? When is the last time you did that? I’m not sure where he worked if at all but he was wearing many hats. He needed to start a security company, a public works company, a private investigations company, a child protection agency, and a few other jobs.
Nietzsche’s existentialism is by far my favorite He is more of an influence in today’s world than all other existentialists In a general sense, I take this from his works: Life, is OUR Not some holy being’s, and it’s up to us to rise above our animal nature and make it a great It’s a shame that he had to experience so much on the suffering side of things But, I believe his life illustrates that life is pain as Fuck, I miss going to philosophy classes high,
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