“The likelihood of someone being on this list and buying a gun to use it in a terrorist act to me is far greater than the likelihood of an innocent person being on the list. We can fix the problem with the innocent person.” – Senator Lindsey Graham in Senators strike compromise to ban suspected terrorists from buying guns [via cbsnews.com]
Lindsey Graham makes me want to puke. Tarring and feathering would be too nice for him.
Nah don’t tar and feather him, give him a taste of his own medicine.
If he feels so sure that fixing the falsely accused on the list is such a great idea, then let him go first. Put his arse on the lists and let him experience the fix.
Then we’ll see how he feels about it afterwards.
He’s a senator. That is a phone call and a favor.
You and I don’t have that kind of grease.
Ted Kennedy was a Senator, too.
It took considerably more than a phone call for him to get off the watch list.
@ YaDaddy
And thus how much more difficult would it be for a mere prol to get off the list?
I seem to recall that it took Teddy two years, apparently because there was an IRA member with the same name. Moreover, the current appeal “system” to get off the list is conducted in secrecy, so you never get to find out what the “evidence” against you consists of. Finally, there is no judicial review of a denial of an appeal, unlike any other administrative decision by any other governmental agency. In fact, after review, they won’t even tell you what the result of their investigation was–the only way to find out is to try to get on a plane. Doncha just love the Patriot Act?
If I were ever president, that’s exactly what I’d do, not just in this instance but every time Congress voted to give the Executive Branch discretionary power to violate the Constitutional rights of citizens.
I’m sure I’d be impeached for it on some pretext, of course, but not before many Senators and Representatives had been detained at Guantanamo, anally probed for drugs, waterboarded, and had their assets seized.
This isn’t the first time that Graham has suggested that the Constitution and due process be swept aside in the name of national security. After the attack in Boston Graham opined that the US citizens who commit terrorist attacks be deemed enemy combatants and be stripped of their 5th Amendment Constitutional rights and due process. He’s a political gadfly that loves to hear himself talk. The problem is that he’s dumb as a box of rocks and full of himself.
I think his middle name is cave, RINO, milquetoast or something else as wishy-washy. The people of South Carolina deserve better, and he needs to be removed at the next opportunity.
If anyone is surprised by Lindsey Graham selling out like this, they simply have not been paying attention.
Graham duped me; I’ll admit that. I voted for him thinking he was going to ‘clean up’ the Senate as he gained seniority. I was disabused of that notion mighty quickly and see him as nothing less than a traitor.
Graham is the embodiment of what Yiannopoulus is talking about when he references “Conservatives are losers.” Elected on a platform to do a specific job, then turning his back on that job and joining with the other team.
The idea has been floated that THIS is what has created Trump’s popularity.
I hope when you refer to the “other team”, you are referring to the Green Team, i.e., the money team. There is no red team. There is no blue team. There is only the green team. Everything is scripted ahead of time. What do you think these clowns were doing all weekend. Planning this week’s theater and splitting up the money.
By “other team,” I was referring more to “authoritarian.”
Not all power stems from money. I think you make some good points to ponder, but getting too overly focused on the ‘green’ can be, in my observation, a distraction.
It always comes down to money.
Chris, I disagree. That’s too narrow. It often comes down to money, but money is not a pre-requisite to evil.
The Statist Authoritarian that seeks to centralize control of other human beings is nothing short of evil, no matter what the motivation…money or otherwise.
No, it always comes down to power. Money may be a way of getting power, or as a reward for those in power, but the goal is power. Money is just a way of keeping score. As the old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I wish I understood SC. They have an outstanding Senator in Tim Scott and a horrible legacy one they won’t get rid of in Graham. How can SC support Grahamism and Trumpism at the same time? It feels bipolar.
I learned from my time living there that South Carolina suffers from MPD.
The same person that would have a “South will rise again” attitude and won’t use the term “Civil War” (at best it is “War Between the States” and often “War of Northern Aggression”) will be all-in for Statism and centralized control, especially if that person works for City, County or State government.
Some of the most bureaucratic people I’ve ever met live in SC.
It’s very weird.
So yeah, your comment is quite consistent with my observations. That state demonstrations a heap ton of ideological contradiction.
I feel the same about my home here in Maine. We are a majority Republican state, yet, we have Collins (a rino) and King (a extreme leftist independent) as our Senators. Until Lepaige, we had almost 60 years of super left wing liberal Governors. I don’t understand how that happens. Sometimes I wonder if the whole thing is rigged and our voting is a just a farce.
I began questioning the legitimacy of our voting in 1992 and became convinced in 1996. I just could not wrap my head around Bill Clinton’s re-election given everything that happened during his first term.
G.H.W. Bush lost in 1992 supposedly on one bad statement: “Read my lips, no new taxes.” Yet Clinton’s first term was, as they’d call it now, a sh1tshow of epic proportions, and the country RE-ELECTED him?
Wild.
My faith in the electoral system has only declined since.
Seeing Bill’s wife as a major candidate with “polling data” suggesting she could win is just mind boggling. Forget her pre-2000 past…just the fact that she’s under active felony investigation for compromising “secret” information is just…well, words fail me.
How can anyone support her? Yet here we are.
The other day I was going through channels and stopped briefly on CNN who said “Moderate REpublican Susan Collins…” It’s all spin.
I’ve wondered the same thing recently. How can my state of Kentucky have Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell? And when Mitch was up for reelection there was almost no advertising, no signs in people’s yards, etc. His primary opponent had signs up all over the place and plenty of us actively stumping for him. Yet when primary time rolled around it was a massive Mitch landslide victory. You can’t help but wonder if it’s all staged.
I think Graham’s support comes from the fact that there is a large number of military and people whose incomes are supported directly or indirectly by military spending in SC. Graham has always been a hawk and I’m sure he gets a more than a fair share of the MIC pot directed toward SC. Or at least they think he does and that’s what counts.
Graham is NOT a Conservative.
NEVER trust a former military lawyer who sells himself “I’m a vet” without mentioning that they were just a Fing JAG with a direct appointment as a commissioned officer. Just as much a boil on the arse of the military as lawyers are in the civilian world. Graham has long sold himself as some expert on the military and war but he has had diddly squat to do with killing people and breaking things. AND was AIRFARCE besides. No more a soldier than the Chaplains cat. A useless Pissant.
neiowa,
As a native South Carolinian, who has never voted for Lindsey Graham, and is also an Air Force Vet. Go fuck yourself. Like Graham or not, you have no right to question his service record, nor to criticize him for being in the Air Force. If you don’t like the Air Force, try considering every war in the last 80 years without the bombing, recon, and logistics efforts contributed by the USAF and the USAAC. Also, if you have a problem with JAGs, you also have a problem with due process. JAGs serve a necessary function providing legal aid and assistance to military personnel in every aspect from estate planning to representation in the event they are charged with a crime under the UCMJ. They also provide both the prosecution to try accused terrorists and enemy combatants, and often their defense, because again, due process is still a thing, even in the military. As far as an appointment to his rank, Graham was commissioned as an officer as a O-1, and worked his way through the reserve ranks the same as any reserve officer. If everyone clawed their way up to O-6 from Private/Airman Basic as you seem to want, there would be virtually no qualified officers in any branch of the service. Yes, most people have a negative image of low ranking officers as being inexperienced and unqualified, and those perceptions are not without merit, buts that’s why they have lower amounts of responsibility until they are proven leaders and have made rank.
Now, all that being said-as a politician, Graham sucks. Period. He has proven time and time again that he can not be trusted. That still gives you or me no right to question his service without having first hand knowledge of his past.
What a dumbass statement. I spent 20 years in the USAF, as an officer, and in the first 3 years I have $1000 says I killed more people than YOU ever have! Such generalizations are generally idiotic.
He’s not wrong, and it’s one of the best solutions to fix a complicated problem.
What are the alternatives? Do what some idiots suggest and ban Muslims? Or do what other idiots suggest and ban guns themselves?
Solution? The problem is there are evil people in this world. We will not solve it. But with enough armed citizens, we can minimize the carnage when the evil among us decide to do what they do.
Fear any government that keeps lists of people who have committed no crime and denies human rights to those on the list. It is a trademark of the most brutal, oppressive and tyrannical regimes in the history of civilization.
+1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Curtis, that is *VERY* nicely said! In the future you might look for a way to artistically insert the fact that such “lists” are compiled by unelected bureaucrats without any effective supervision.
Sure, why not ban muslims. Islam is not a religion, it’s an ideology. If it’s legitimate to ban private nukes, it’s legitimate to ban “assault religions”.
You cannot make right with the innocent person
http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2015/06/nj_gun_association_calls_berlin_womans_death_an_ab.html
Nor can you make right with a constitutionally protected right that’s delayed because of some arbitrary bureaucrats
Plenty of people have their names permanently associated with criminals and terrorist because of identity theft or sheer coincidence.
I’m ok with the govt having some lists. Crime prevention is what i paid them to do. But until a properly obtained WARRANT for a search or an arrest is issued, NO right shall be infringed or delayed.
I disagree.
“Crime prevention” is a dangerous farce. When it comes to crime, the only thing government is remotely competent enough to pursue is identifying and punishing the guilty after a crime has been committed.
While that is true, it is still “recidivism prevetion”, which surely would be considered a component of crime prevention.
So Dan, you would sacrifice due process for security? What are you going to sacrifice next, free speech?
Graham is a moron.
Ban ALL immigration from any origin for 20yr until those of the current crop we allow to stay have assimilated. The progs and RINOs have allowed nearly SIXTY million into this country over the last 50yr (when we last removed a ban). PLUS their spawn. In a nation that has ballooned to 320milion. Most of those allowed in need to go home and fix THEIR cesspool. EVERY “Refugee”, every Visa overstay, every “student”, all that came in thru fraud (theirs or of the progtards). And take their offspring.
In particular any from the Mideast. Those facing religious oppression we can find a place somewhere (outside of the US).
You’d swear none of these people have ever had to go through their own bureaucracy. It’s so easy!
Example: last I checked the wait list for a hearing in CT to get your permit back was years long and if you finally make it before the board the board is stacked with anti’s who will deny your request by default.
It’s so easy!
The actual lists they want to include name over a million people. And senator Graham knows it. If he is saying there are a million potentential terrorists primed and ready to kill us then this would surely be the worst time to disarm the public, wouldn’t it?
PS this is Jebs buddy boy, the supposed defender of our rights, mister “A+ rating…” Trump did more to defend our rights by just being involved in the discussion than this jackass could manage with his vaunted career and decades in office. The establishment is finally dead.
Lindsey Graham’s political life is dictated by his MIC masters. Or whoever is buying his next case of bourbon.
Here’s one of the problems with your logic, Mr. Graham: You don’t define “terrorist act.”
Given the fluidity of that term, what you are advocating is very dangerous.
I’m very curious, Mr. Graham, if you believe the NRA is a terrorist group as has been postulated time and time again…included by one of the current candidates for President.
You could just as well as say “The odds of people I don’t like getting a gun are far greater than an innocent person (ie, someone I do like) getting on the list falsely” and it has the same meaning as what you actually said.
You can fix the problem? You haven’t been able to fix the problem for years. What makes you think you can do it now?
So much for principles. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Apparently that doesn’t seem to matter anymore. How shameful.
If they insist on passing the bill, I think they should at lease cover all of the legal fees.
I can think of multiple ways that the Government could be challenged and the person actually “prevail” but then be denied the legal fees because there was (unfounded) probable cause at the time the person was added to the list.
In addition, the average citizen can’t afford to pay a lawyer up front to secure their rights. The Government should pay all of the legal fees, prevail or not. If you prevail, a bonus free AR for you and your lawyer. 🙂
Nobody ever explained to me how Ted Kennedy got on (and off) the no-fly list…
Well, “Theodore Kennedy” is a pretty common muslim name…
Except his name was Edward Kennedy.
I don’t know specifically how he got off the list, but I have read that it took considerable effort and a bit of time. It was not a matter of a simple phone call, “Hey, Ted’s on the list and he shouldn’t be” and done.
As for how he got on it, we need to remember that for the most part, these are just lists of names, not actual people (or enough information to identify individual people).
So, is your name the Middle Eastern equivalent of “John Smith?” Best of luck to you. Your life is going to suck and there is nothing you can do about it.
Land of the free, and all…
His nameprobably matched up with someone associated with either the Provisional IRA or an Irish Loyalist group. Thats the danger of having secret lists based on just names.
According to the Wikipedia entry, T. Kennedy was used as an alias by a terrorist at some point, and that was enough to get long serving US Senator Edward “Ted” Kennedy flagged as a potential terrorist. He appealed directly to the Homeland Security Secretary, and after three weeks was able to get the issue resolved.
My border collie has a dog toy that’s a stuffed elephant named Lindsey Graham… I figure they have the same amount of backbone.
These fools are playing with fire!
Tom
Yeah sorry. Show me the data. Until then you are ideologically wrong, and lying about the numbers to make yourself feel better about it.
It’s all just pandering to the masses. Most people out there will think that this is a great idea because they can’t (or won’t) do the necessary thinking to figure out why this is a horrible idea. The political class counts and depends on Americans lack of critical thinking skills.
Here’s my counter-offer for Senator Grahm-cracker…
Demonstrate that you’ve “fixed it” and then we can talk about what else you might want to do with that list.
Until then, how about you focus on getting actual terrorists on your “terrorist watch list”, then, you know, watching them.
Lindsey Graham is a traitor. Obviously, he is someone who will not honor his oath to defend the Constitution.
You Can’t Fix Stupid
“The likelihood…
So, a list that didn’t catch Orlando-confused, and did list my colleague’s three year old kid (just found this out this week), is more likely to catch terrorists than innocent people? (!!!!!)
It seems in Grahm-cracker world, up is down, black is white, and the list works the way he says it does. I wonder. Could he declare potato chips non-fattening, Kate Bekinsale looking for an O F W nerd rebound guy, and un-cancel Firefly?
Priorities, dude.
The so called compromise bill on NO FLY lists is rejected by Gun Owners of America. It’s NOT ‘ Due Process ‘ if you are stripped of rights and must beg – plead – SUE – for restoration. Call your Congress-critters and tell them to secure the BORDER and DRUG tunnels , instead of messing with lawful gun owners. Call – 202-225-3121
Call NRA and school them on DUE PROCESS — Chris Cox = 703-267-1141.
https://gunowners.org/news06222016.htm
What I want to know is if they are on the No Fly list and they are not US citizens why are they still in this country. If they are a citizen then if you have enough evidence to keep them from flying then why are they not in prison. How is someone that is not charged with a crime being denied freedom of movement, and the constitutional right of buying a firearm. This is confinement and punishment without even being charged with a crime, how could this pass constitutional muster. I like everyone don’t want terrorist getting guns, but one mans terrorist is another mans patriot. This is a very dangerous law in principle, and without a definitive determination of what the qualifications are to be deemed a terrorist it is going to lead to anyone that disagrees with the statist and tyrants being put on the Watch List.
How the people of South Carolina can keep sending that worthless Lindsey Graham back to the Senate is beyond me. He clearly suffers from DC exposure syndrome and meets to be put out to pasture
Gee whiz – Lindsey graham not caring about the constitution or due process in favor of terror paranoia.
Shocker.
The first Republican bill was fine. Deny people in the list – if a judge gets involved and there is probable cause. But they didn’t want that because then they’d have to acknowledge that the 2A is a regular onstitutional right. Assholes
Bro without a ho-Mark Kirk(who’s even worse)…BTW why is all this so hard to figure out?!?
That’s the dangerous part. They HAVE figured it out. What they, including Graham, are trying to do is intentional.
They are not being obtuse or ignorant. They are lying and manipulating.
The next question is “why.” The answer should be obvious, but sadly has flown over the heads of roughly half the population.
Libertarians and socialist agree with republican senator Lindsey Graham.
They all say murders rapist and bombers have every right to immigrate to the USA. The Open borders crowd.
There time is coming to a rapid end…Thank God!
Because libertarians want to “put things into their bodies”, and socialist want to hand out “free stuff” , these groups will still be around unfortunately.
Better 100 guilty men at liberty than 1 innocent man imprisoned.
Sen. Graham’s attitude, one predominant in Europe and increasing here, is that the innocent can and should be sacrificed for the greater good.
In this country, there is no greater betrayal. Our laws and government are, uniquely, founded on *individual* liberty, and individual responsibility. to sacrifice this, for any reason, is abhorrent. No innocent citizen should have to pay for the actions of the guilty.
Your quote on the first line is off, but I agree with your sentiment.
Since 9-11 and the public’s increased awareness of terrorism, some of the fearful have tried to argue, “what if the guilty use their freedom to bomb hundreds of innocent school children,” which is a straw man fallacy. However, in EU they are accustomed to being in a Nanny State and they expect the government to protect them because they have lost all concept of freedom and will easily agree to stupid laws.
In the USA, I believe the school system has done a great job of making many submissive to the governments will and making children fear their shadows.
I wonder if he has been compromised because the Senate Dems. are threatening to expose his ‘alternative’ lifestyle.
Hardly, just check his record. He might as well be a Democrat.
The whole idea that we should accept denying a right to anyone whom the government “suspects” of being “dangerous” is wrong and more dangerous than whatever issue it is supposed to “fix”. It pulls the linchpin on the entire American concept of law and due process. We already have the solution available, an armed and vigilant populous, but that solution is blocked by unlawful infringements on our right to keep and BEAR Arms. Denied the right to defend ourselves effectively, are we now to surrender our rights to due process and plead universally guilty to “thought crimes” so some bureaucrat can convict and punish us on a “suspicion”? I think not!
Questions:
1) What is the criteria for getting on any list? What is the criteria for getting off the list if you are not what they say you are? The ACLU won a case against the so called “No Fly List” https://www.aclu.org/news/federal-court-sides-aclu-no-fly-list-lawsuit Fox News Tried to find out, and apparently a off joke on social media can get you on the list as well as clerical errors or simply because the Police “Suspect” you but have zero evidence other than a hunch. http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2015/09/09/8-ways-can-end-up-on-no-fly-list.html
2) The list is secret??. According in previous testimony, Feinstein said the list is so secret she does not know who is on the list but somehow during a recent news conference on the gun bills she absolutely knows that 99.7 percent of people on the list are foreigners. Problem 1 — does she or does she know who is on the list Problem 2 — If most are foreigners exactly how can they get a gun?
3) You should not have to prove you are innocent. If that is what someone is going to have to do, then the government if found to be wrong in court, needs to pay all court expenses plus damages equal to 3x court expenses.
4) How many of the Muslim terrorist who have committed the recent mass shootings over the last 8 years of Obama’s Presidency have been on the list? Answer — Zero. It is too big of a problem. Anyone the FBI has captured and jailed over the last 8 years was the result of actual active investigation.
These laws they are trying to pass are just one more inch under the tent to eventually come up with a way for a complete ban.
Or better yet, as someone commented yesterday. Nothing will pass because this is just election year noise and it is more powerful for this law making to make the news and fail so that the Democrats can blame Republicans than versus a will to do anything because deep down I am sure there are even Democrats that can see this will not do a damn think but it sure helps politically.
It occurs to me this is an objectively testable claim. As a matter of fact, there have been precisely two persons who were on the watch list, who legally purchased firearms through FFLs and went on to use those firearms in terrorist acts. One was in 2009 in Little Rock, AR, and the other was in 2015 in Garland, TX. How many innocent people have been on the list? A whole lot more than that.
Consider that over 2,000 people on the watch list are known to have purchased firearms through FFLs since the list’s inception. We are left to conclude that either:
A) There are a couple thousand terrorists (that we know of and were watching, at least at some point) who are known to be armed but have thus far held off for unknown reasons; or
B) The vast majority of those people are not, in fact, terrorists.
Also, keep in mind that’s before gun control supporters in the Executive Branch are incentivized to dramatically expand the list.
BREAKING – Senate vote on Collins amendment 58 to 38 …. not passed , BUT , paused for RECONSIDERATION !
Pat Toomey pushing yet one more ” Denial of Due Process First ” bill . He will ‘ allow ‘ appeals , if you have $$$ Money for lawyers … NO GOOD … FAIL. Call Toomey – 202-225-3121.
House Democrats holding a ‘ sit-in ‘ to demand a House anti-gun ( must DO something ) vote.
Keep the HEAT on… !!
Guilty until proven innocent, rights denied by default…how lovely for us.
“The likelihood of someone being on this list and buying a gun to use it in a terrorist act to me is far greater than the likelihood of an innocent person being on the list. We can fix the problem with the innocent person.”
Um, NO…no its not. its in fact as close as possible to a statistical certaintly that its not, as you can get.
I don’t know who is putting names on the list, though. Obama, Jeh Johnson, AG Lynch may put EVERY BODY on the list if only to jam people up for 3 days. Then they’ll complain 3 days is not enough, they need 5 or 7 or a month…
“We can fix the problem with the innocent person.”
— Sen. Lindsay
WagnerGrahamAnd exactly how do you propose to “fix the problem,” you repulsive twink?
The fact that it hugely narrows the scope of the Americans affected does make it less a violation of the 5th Amendment. This is especially true since it – almost by definition – does not serve a compelling public interest.
The truth is this is nothing more than a political stunt to give Democrats something on which to campaign this fall. Please, Republicans! Do not give them a pointless victory.
Graham is hardly conservative and his cohort from Maine even less so. The fact that it hugely narrows the scope of the Americans affected does make it less a violation of the 5th Amendment. This is especially true since it – almost by definition – does not serve a compelling public interest.
The truth is this is nothing more than a political stunt to give Democrats something on which to campaign this fall. Please! Do not give them a pointless victory.
Hope he becomes unemployed.
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