(courtesy Caifornians Oppose Gun Rsestrictions Facebook page)

“I work at a gun shop,” a member of Californians Opposing Gun Restrictions posted on the gun rights group’s Facebook page. “So I just want to inform the public that as of 430 PM, California ran over 4000 background checks for gun purchases, and most purchases were long guns (AR-15) and most were for multiple long guns. It was an average of 6500 guns purchased TODAY alone, at 430 PM.” To paraphrase Will Smith in MIB II, we’re in the midst of the last great gun sales surge you’ll ever see. Until the next one. [h/t DrVino]

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600 COMMENTS

  1. Bravo! They can’t bust everyone! Noncompliance is the name of the game…

    • Not to be a cynic, but unless Californians are ready to start the next civil war, all the government has to do is very publicly and brutally bust a handful of people, and then most other people will then comply.

        • Lmao! A revolution is more like it. people need to educate themselves. Smh. And if it should come to that I WILL fight!

      • The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution provides, “[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly …

        • Since when will California and Jerry Brown HONOR THE CONSTITUTION. thEY’VE SHOWN A REMARKABLE AMOUNT OF IGNORANCE AND DISDAIN FOR THEIR CITIZENRY.

      • Fifth Amendment
        The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:
        No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

      • Sixth Amendment
        The Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:
        In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

      • Amendment XIV

        Section 1.

        All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

        • If you will recall, it took only two men with rifles shut down half of the east coast, including Washington DC a few years ago.

      • Lmao x 10,000!!! I can expect a LAIM ASS RESPONSE LIKE THAT FROM ANYONE WHO HAS A CALL SIGN “tex300BLK”!………. so other than naming your call sign after and eat up with the dumbass retard cartridge what do you expect Americans to do Rollover and die??? I SURE AS HELL HOPE YOUR NOT A TEXAN! Or we have some serious problems here in the LAST FREE STATE IN THE UNION!!! NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!

          • Free is a relative term.

            Last? Freest? Hardly. But Texas is a place where individual liberty still holds sway. My home.

      • True, but they risk sparking a civil war in a state that has many retired veterans both young and old. They just might be that stupid I hope so. I’m getting sick of the issue being up for question. It’s about time to settle this shit and California is as good a place to start as any.

      • There is a armed revolution coming. It’s going to look like the French Revolution not the American Revolution. A majority of Americans are tired of government overreach. My hope is redress at the ballot box. However I think the fix is in. With the arrogance of this administration he may not leave office. I have visions of the 60’s on steroids .

        People are angry, not just the Americans.

      • I don’t think so. When they started the magazine laws, the LAPD along with other law groups told the Gov that they would not perused any confiscations and that they would only adhere to those folks that were arrested of a crime and at that time were in non-compliance. In other words, you have a new law that no one wants to enforce once again a useless piece of paper!

    • You want to beat gun control? Okay, fine, somebody in the gun industry publish a small batch recipe for smokeless powder. And commercial size primers. And drawing dies for cartridge cases.

      And plans for a full auto select-fire trigger group for both AR’s and AK’s.

      And full data package on the AR18 including a cheap to make cut rifling machine.

      You see, the only really effective form of gun control is the barrier of entry to manufacture. They can control corporate manufacturers, they can’t control private builders.

      And then we all have to do our part by putting it out over bittorrent and the dark web and then we have to actually start building this stuff in single car garages everywhere.

      And then when they come to stop us we shoot them. Then we go to the capitols and shoot the politicians that ordered it.

      That’s how you beat gun control. Anything less is a delaying action that you are destined to lose.

      • I’m working on the data package for the AR18, but I still need one to reverse-engineer for parts compatibility. I have every other piece of the package. When I’m done you’ll be able to cut up an old car and make it into and AR18 inspired rifle.

        I’m not a engineer by training or a chemist nor a tool and die maker, just someone that isn’t afraid of tools. For the ammo stuff I’m completely out of my depth. So if anyone can do that part we can meet in the middle.

      • The gun industry doesn’t make smokeless from base ingredients easily available and realistically unbannable for sale to civilians.

        What would be really nice, is of someone with a good knack for chemistry, could come up with a way to produce it reliably from household ingredients too common to realistically ban.

        But even absent gun access, the limitations on getting rid of oppressors, is really just in the oppresseds’ heads. One can always obtain firearms and ammunition by taking it from necessarily armed oppressors. Who inevitably can, as they must in order to do their “duty”, be drawn close enough to render them and/or theirs susceptible to incapacitation by simpler means. Then you have their guns, and can go from there.

        The overriding rule in totalitarian dystopias, is that nice guys finish last. Hence the focus, in all such societies, on those who are the oppressors’ point men “only doing their jobs,” and hence not “deserving” of being subjected to what it would take to bring them down. Once that unfortunate headfake is seen through and set aside, pretty much even the most severely oppressed of populations, are ready to celebrate their own Mogadishu moment.

        • Guncotton. Look it up. All you need is a cooling aparatus, nitric acid, concentrate sulfuric acid and cotton. Denim works great as a source of large quantities of cotton. It’s also called nitrocellulose and is a key component of many modern smokeless powders. There’s also white powder, nitro glycerine and other propellants that can be made in a garage. The reason people don’t do it today other than the legalities of the matter is that these are very high energy materials and small mistakes or environmental issues can be catastrophic. If there’s already a catastrophe in play, well then, it would seem like there’s not such a high barrier to entry since desirability will be extremely high and availability will be extremely low. I personally look to Mexico to solve our problem. They can smuggle anything.

        • OR……
          You could just wait some gubmint idiot to leave his firearm laying around in the bathroom, or just swipe it out of their patrol car when they leave their windows down when they go in to get something in the store.

      • Hello, fellow citizen, I completely agree with you. Please post your address and working hours so that we can discuss anti-government actions. I am a friend, not a federal agent. You can trust me.

    • Breaking records on comments should not include 400 comments from 3 commentators . I spent 2 entertaining hours reading all these comments and the back and forth between Excedrine , 2Asux and MrWoodcock was delightful to say the least , wow !
      As to the content of the story .
      I advise all 2nd amendment Californians to begin now in earnest to make plans to leave . You are severely outnumbered by whackos and droids . If you love freedom and hard work and still want America to be what it once was , ( great ) come on out to WV .

    • Do it! Still close enough to see the family, and far enough to be able to afford to live and enjoy freedom.

      • Yes, do it !

        My friend Harry Reid and all his sensible progressives will be there to greet you.

        • Oh, good. A welcome wagon. I’m not impressed by titles or position. If Harry and I cross paths I will tell him why he’s a failure as a representative of the people.

          And I will vote for his replacement.

        • Your friend Harry who willfully lies about having machine guns delivered to your door from the internet. Cool.

        • @ 2Asux — Neither Harry Reid nor any of his DemoKKKrat cronies are “progressive,” according to any definition of the word anywhere.

        • Then you will be on the front line first?

          Usually people like you only expect the govt to act out your violent fantasies.

          • Do you think I would not be satisfied with gun owners peacefully complying with reasonable restrictions on ownership (Heller, BTW)?

            I have no wish or wants that gun owners should be forcefully relieved of their firearms, unless there becomes absolutely no other way to gain cooperation, unless gun owners engage in violence against those of us who wish to live without fearing everyone we meet is carrying a gun that might be dropped, misused, or wielded criminally.

            Because any attempt at absolute confiscation is likely to result in worse damage than can be justified, I think only the imminent release of civil war for other reasons would justify forceful confiscation. Then, yes, I would rely on agents of government to act in my behalf.

            BTW: I do not need to want an action in order to justify issuing a warning of what certain actions by gun owners might spawn.

        • Califórnia has been a lost cause for a long time, but it’s also been the absolute refutation of “nobody’s coming for your guns” and “there is no slippery slope.” There is absolutely no room for compromise, because they absolutely want to take everything and leave you with nothing.

          If significant numbers of gun owners leave and move to places such as Nevada, then scum like Harry Reid are gone. We certainly could use them up in the Northwest. Washington’s initiative system is, at the moment, dominated by Seattle. That means it’s essentially a unicameral legislature it can use to foist policy on the rest of the state. It will continue to remake the state in its image until it’s just one big Seattle. Unless and until the initiative system is scrapped, the only hope is that enough people move into the rest of the state to counterbalance Seattle.

          • You do realize we have progressives who are gun owners for hunting and even self-defense? They are much more liberal on all other social matters. However, those people, if they felt safe because guns were under control in their locality, would surrender self-defense guns. Maybe even hunting guns if the state offered no real opportunities to hunt. Turning a Red State Blue for all but guns would be an enormous and satisfying victory. Eventually, the guns would go also. Because if the majority voted to end gun ownership, or even just add more restrictions, the gun-owning progressives would go along.

        • If one day your beloved “government agents” actually did try to come after the guns, you do realize they would have zero chance at success, despite the “capabilities” of the US armed forces…right? Just ask any Iraq, Vietnam, or Afghan vet.

          • We’ve been down this road many times.

            None of the actions you listed involved a modern, well trained, well-equipped army willing and allowed to do everything and anything necessary to bring about a desired result. The only example germane and useful is the US Civil War.

            Both sides had mostly equivalent firepower types, both sides had relatively modern armies. Both sides were willing to inflict enormous casualties to prove a point. Both sides were made up of people inside a single grand boundary. The winning side was more willing and capable of inflicting and absorbing carnage than the other. Do you wonder if a national army would destroy its own population? When was the last piece of legislation passed by the Confederate States of America?

            The War Between The States was your second revolution. Your last chance at using force of arms to discipline a national government. Grant won because he did not care how many Confederates he needed to kill, not thought about preserving the physical infrastructure of the entire Southern half of the country. His mission was to defeat and destroy the Confederacy, by any means necessary.

            In the Civil War, you have an example of how a formal, trained, armed rebellion would proceed. In the last year of that war, you have an example of how a rebellion sustained by a rag tag bunch of disorganized volunteers fared against a determined and powerful national army.

            Do not eat your own cows. Armed resistance is for video games.

            • You r analysis of the reasons for the defeat of the south in the Civil War is overgeneralized and indefensible by the “facts on the ground.” The north had a population much larger than the south, and had the majority of the manufacturing capacity. Lincoln’s Anaconda Plan was intended to, and ultimately did deprive the south of an ability to market its mostly agricultural products to foreign markets, thus causing a severe cash shortage. Without enough men, without the ability to replace munitions and cannon lost in battle, with a northern attack on the basic infrastructure of the southern railways ad water transportation systems, the south had no realistic chance of prevailing. Lincoln was right: the north could not win by winning individual battles, it has to crush the Confederate Army. But to suggest that the south lost the war because of a loss of will is unsupported by any histories of which I am aware.

              Moreover, the result of the Civil War is no indicator of what might happen in a subsequent revolution. The maps of the two sides (pro and anti gun) are not generally subscribed by the Mason-Dixon line, the means of production are widely scattered, and the numbers are different. The American Revolution was won by a relatively small minority–maybe 17% of the overall population–that was overmatched by a superior British force. However, there was not center to the revolution, no place that could be taken that would result in a British victory. It was an insurgency, and historically, insurgents can defeat a greater force.
              So what about today? There are easily 50 million gun owners in America, and if only 17% participated in a revolution (8.5 million) against a federal government, they would easily outnumber the 750,000 man armed forces, the vast majority of whom are not fighting troops but support troops. Let’s add to that the fact that the U.S. Armed Forces have never won an insurgency war.

              • You made my point about the Civil War. A modern, committed, driven army willing to do whatever it took defeated another organized army in a number of ways. In the original list, you presented situations where the US was not willing to annihilate the enemy, but only allowed to make suggestions.

                You presume facts about the character of gun owners not in evidence. When it is all said and done, you likely have less than 5% of gun owners who would “into the breach” to retain their guns. And then only if victory was assured. You vastly underestimate the natural desire of populations to not risk their lives and their families in a shooting war. The people you hope are willing to rebel against government are dead a hundred and fifty years ago. The US, like the West at large is too self-satisfied, too complacent to really pose any sort of threat to the combined forces of government. Nothing to be feared.

                Politics is the game, not revolution. But if you can encourage more of your gun friends to focus on rebellion, and ignore politics, we thank you.

              • Go ahead, ignore the real point. In the Civil War, it was army against army. An insurgency is another ball of wax, all the more difficult when the the government forces are vastly outnumbered and have no one to fight. Insurgencies are almost impossible to fight, and the powerful army almost always loses. Look in the news–how many insurgencies are active around the world right now, and how many have been going on for more than a decade? I am not promoting revolution, I am just pointing out the practical realities of the situation should it occur. There is no army in the world today that could successfully invade and occupy the United States, and, I submit, that includes the U.S. Army.

              • If you think insurgencies (the Confederacy was a very large insurgency) can’t be put down by organized armies, have a look at the Phillipines of late 1890s, and the Malaysian insurgency ended by the British in the late ’50s. Or even the Muslim rebellion against the British in India around 1750. Or maybe my favorite, Carthage. When was the last time you got a post card or email from the nation of Carthage?

        • @ 2Asux — We know that you gun-grabbers won’t be satisfied until all guns are gone except for those in the hands of your beloved jackboots. And need I remind you that here is literally no such thing as a “reasonable restriction” on guns, which actually means that the Heller decision doesn’t allow for squat?

          If you support gun control, you wish or want guns to be forcibly confiscated. That’s where it always leads, in all actual practice. Good ideas don’t require force unless and until violence is visited on the innocent, period. There is no right to live without fear, either. You only have a right to pursue it, and restricting the rights of peaceable people is not and shall never, ever be a legitimate avenue.

          Gun control eventually leads to confiscation of private property that was acquired legally and in good faith from people who are neither determined nor inclined to commit violence against you unprovoked. And no, the imminent outbreak of civil war is NOT a valid reason, either, regardless of whatever you or anyone else thinks.

          • My point about California is not that I think they made good law, but that California generally leads the nation in protecting the people from harm. Once a principle is incorporated in California law, sheer economics drive similar outcomes in other states. You have unleaded gasoline because of California. You have just about every automobile safety feature because of California. You have numerous food safety rules because of California. California gave the nation gay marriage as a universal right. California was the leader in promulgating hate crime legislation. And so on.

            As California goes, so goes the nation. Wait for it.

        • @ 2Asux — You realize that gun owners even within your own regressive camp are vilified just the same as any other gun owner, and for the exact same pretended reasons? They’re actually not all that much more liberal on any other social matters, either. That is why those people would happily render themselves defenseless against the criminal element that also runs the most rampant in their localities: they put their virtue signaling so far above and beyond all common sense, they would rather risk their own personal safety, and that or their families — and everyone else they can force to abide by their nonsenical code of ethics — than admit being wrong. Which they are. Turning a blue state red for guns and taxes would be an enormous and satisfying victory, and the right thing to do. For starters. Oh, and no, the guns actually wouldn’t go, either. The criminals WILL still have them, and they WILL have just as many and of whatever kind they wanted as before, regardless of whatever laws are on the books and how strictly they’re enforced. It wouldn’t matter if the majority voted to end gun ownership: rights are not something that can thrown away and discarded. If the gun-owning regressives went along with it, then, that’s on them alone.

          • Gun owners go on and on about how criminals and gangers would have guns, but not regular people. Setting aside the fact that our side has done entirely too little to control guns in the criminal societies, if you are afraid of criminals with guns, don’t go where criminals are (stupid people, in stupid places, winning stupid prizes, right?) I believe there have been statistical breakdowns on shooting incidents posted to this blog. Seems that the vast majority of criminal shootings or attacks take place within the confines of known criminal activity; rarely in what may be called polite society. If you don’t go places where you need a gun, you don’t need a gun.

        • @ 2Asux — We have been down this road many times, but, you are still quite clearly stuck spinning your wheels at the starting line.

          All of the past examples Mark listed involved a modern, and numerically, technologically, and logistically superior force fighting a smaller, less-equipped, less-trained guerilla force in an unconventional war. You have a handful of rare exceptions to an age-old rule that do not an argument make.

          The winning side in any of those contests were actually willing to break from the TTPs of their adversary and simply wear them down through attrition. I don’t have to wonder if a standing army would destroy their domestic population because they couldn’t.

          The Civil War was not Revolution 2.0, either. Nor could you articulate such a (non)argument without it being pure sophistry. Grant actually won because he was the superior tactician, and could very well have won without wrecking what little infrastructure the South had. He just didn’t personally care. In that war, we actually have an example of how a rebellion wouldn’t proceed.

          Big Brother winning against armed resistance is only for your fevered dreams.

          Not only did he not make your point about the Civil War, you have yet to substantiate it along with literally everyone else you’ve said — and will say. No modern army, no matter how committed or driven, could win against an insurgency. In Mark’s list, the U.S. was absolutely willing to annihilate the enemy. It just simply did not have the ability to do so, period.

          You presume facts about the character of gun owners no in evidence, as I’ve rightly dictated to you elsewhere. Even 5% of the estimated number of gun owners, which even you have to admit (whether you want to or not) is a completely arbirary number, is anywhere between 4.35 and 6.2 million, which is far and away more than all active duty and reserve components of all the armed forces and local, state, and federal law enforcement combined. That’s not even taking into account the inevitable radicalization of still millions more people, either, whether victory was assured or not. You vastly underestimate the natural desire of populations to affect change, even if that means violent revolution. The people we know we are willing to rebel against today are almost exactly the same as 150 years ago. You also vastly underestimate the dissatisfaction the West has with its various governments, and it’s those governments that are, ultimately, nothing be feared. Those governments fear their people, elsewise they would not be trying so damned hard to control their citizens.

          Politics is revolution, whether violent or formal and peaceful. But, if you can encourage more of your so-called “friends” to ignore this fact, we thank you.

          • ” In Mark’s list, the U.S. was absolutely willing to annihilate the enemy. It just simply did not have the ability to do so, period.”

            Not supported by the realities of history. The US leadership was unwilling to utterly destroy North Vietnam. Indeed, in 1972, North Vietnam has a single army division remaining in the country. All the rest were in the South. President Thieu asked Johnson to mount and invasion of the North, taking advantage of the inability of the North to re-deploy into their country. Johnson said no. The goal of US involvement did not include “winning” the war, nor invading a foreign country (afraid of the Russians and Chinese). The point of US involvement was to make it too costly for the North to continue to wage war against the South, not to provide a unification victory for the South. Limited goals, limited results.

            The US has not been committed to total military victory since WW2. If gun owners believe they can defeat a committed national army that is willing to utterly destroy what would at the time be an enemy of the vast majority of the country, you won’t do it with a disorganized, internally warring, rag tag bunch of wannabe Rambos. Your side constantly underestimates the power and determination many of us on the gun sense side keep in check. The elements in the government who want to settle your hash permanently are growing, and are more and more restive.

            Pick whatever number of gun owners you want who you think will risk death and destruction. You will not hide in a sea of clandestine support for your revolution. As you sally forth from the bushes, others will observe and report to the authorities. Normal people have things about their lives that manifest significantly more concern and interest than whether a few (that is how you are perceived) special people should be allowed to play with guns.

            The US has not suffered hardship in 70 years. The people you depend upon to support your revolution (or even your thirst for unfettered gun possession) are in their 90s, or have been dead for over 100 years.

            It is all politics and votes. While you are busy thumping your chest and mumbling your mantras about “shall not be infringed”, the populace is moving away from you. Did you ever think that in America, you would see the day when so many traditional values (values of your parent’s time) would be completely swept away so quickly?

            Now, I engage in these conversations not to convince your to give up your guns, but to let you know that while we have you distracted in the tangle of gun rights, the progressive agenda moves ever forward. And to ask you to continue ignoring the remainder of the political landscape, as that eases our way considerably. The more I pound on you (and likewise my fellow progressives doing the same), the more you hunker down, the more your field of view is limited, the more freedom of movement we enjoy.

            On a personal note, these conversations are a great benefit. Steel sharpens steel. You challenge me and provide new avenues for exploitation,

        • @ 2Asux — Gun owners actually go on about how they’ll be keeping their guns specifically because the criminals will be. Setting aside the fact that gun-grabbers have actually done entirely too much to control the criminal possession of guns. The problem with your theory here, is that I don’t even have to go to where criminals are or associate with them in any way to become a target. Sure, the statistical likehood goes down the further away I am from those social circles, but as long as it’s anywhere above zero, it is only prudent that I be prepared as I can be. So, yes, I still need a gun, regardless of whatever (non)arguments you or any other gun-grabber proffers.

          Oh, and The People’s Republik of Commiefornia does sweet fuck all to protect anyone from harm. Need I also mention that economics has failed to bring their gun control laws to other states that didn’t already go deep blue long before any sweeping gun control laws were passed? We actually have unleaded gasoline because of Iowa, numerous automobile safety features because of New York, food safety rules because of the Midwest, and gay marriage because of Hawai’i.

          The only real strength it has is in its electoral votes, and that’s pretty much it.

          • None of the safety and life-improving actions you listed were spread across the nation until California embraced them. No other state has the economic force to move the nation. Now days, it seems that no other state can move the social agenda so quickly and forcefully as California. Which is why the 9th Circuit decision quashing the notion that individuals have a constitutional right to concealed carry is so important. Did you note that shortly thereafter, the Supreme Court ruled (by not ruling) that states have the right to regulate firearm possession? Why had the court so assiduously avoided further illumination of Heller/McDonald, and so suddenly accepted gun rights cases? The tide goes out, dragging the sand from beneath your feet, and you believe the landscape remains as it was.

        • “Do you think I would not be satisfied with gun owners peacefully complying with reasonable restrictions on ownership (Heller, BTW)?”

          If what satisfied you wasn’t completely amorphous and your definition of “reasonable” didn’t change according to whatever idea the media happened to be dangling in your face that month, then yes, we might buy the assertion that you would be “satisfied” with “reasonable restrictions.”

        • Grant won because he didn’t care how many Yankee troops he had to kill to beat the Confederates. As long as he had Irish immigrants and other Yankee trash to feed into the meat grinder he didn’t care. He would fight to the last drop of someone else’s blood.

        • “those of us who wish to live without fearing everyone we meet is carrying a gun that might be dropped, misused, or wielded criminally.”

          There’s your problem right there. Irrational fear of everyone you meet.

          • When “normal-looking” people suddenly break down and start shooting, danger is very real. It is irrational to not fear danger, and want to minimize the opportunity for it.

        • “You have unleaded gasoline because of California. You have just about every automobile safety feature because of California. You have numerous food safety rules because of California.”

          Yep and everything is known to cause cancer thanks to California 😉
          I think in reality, California lawmakers just believe their own people are too stupid to stay alive on their own.

        • @2Asux

          The only thing California leads the nation in “protecting the people” from, is freedom.

          You really have to be a well indoctrinated progressive, to believe that noone would think of asking for their cars to come equipped with brake pedals and non exploding gas tanks, unless some useless hack of an ambulance chaser, and his captive army of tax feeding leeches, forced them to do so.

          • I did not imply (intentionally) that automobile safety standards were/are bad, only that when California adopts a public policy, the rest of the nation soon follows. So it is likely to be with regulations on firearms. Given California’s success influencing the rest of the nation, it is imprudent to bet against the state (of California).

        • @ 2Asux — Mark’s examples were and are completely supported by the realities of history. It was in fact the relentless carpet bombing of North Vietnam that brought them (for a short time) to the negotiating table. There was little if any need to invade them, then. The goal of U.S. involvment did in fact become winning the war. But, what little to no support at home — and justisfiably so — there was simply no will to coninue fighting a completely hopeless conflict. Which was later revealed to be based on a complete fabrication, anyway. The Gulf of Tonkin incident never actually happened.

          The U.S. has been committed to total victory in every conflict since WW2. If gun grabbers believe that the government can’t be defeated by insurgents, as it literally always has been, then they have absolutely no grasp whatsoever of warfighting or history. Your side constantly overestimates the power and determination that many of us on the actual gun sense side keep in check. The elements in the government who want to settle your hash permanently are shrinking, and are less and less restive.

          Pick whatever number of troops you want who you think will risk deth and destruction. You will not hide in a sea of clandestine support for your suppression of any revolution. There is no safe rear area thousands of miles from the fighting either for the jackboots prosecuting the war, nor for the politicians pulling the strings. Normal people are growing fed up with bureaucratic interference in their lives and will not suffer a few (that is how you are percieved) boot-lickers defending it.

          The U.S. is increasingly facing hardship under the kinds of uneducated idiots that you vote for. The people that you depend on to suppress any revolution simply don’t have the stomach for that kind of work and are too few in number, anyway.

          It’s all philosophy and votes. While you were busy kissing the ring and ranting your mantras about “you can’t do anything,” the populace is moving towards me. Many traditional values are slowly returning, as they should, as people are waking up to the realization that the so-called political left’s policies — your policies — are only tant amount to political, economic, and cultural suicide.

          You engage in these summary deconstructions of your repeatedly-falsified and long-since defunct world-views to convince people that already know far better than you and everyone like you that we’re wrong. Too bad for you that your regressive agenda is coming to a stand-still, whether by economic forces catching up to the mathematical reality that they do not create or sustain healthy economies, or still more and more people every day waking up to the folly of sophistry-induced madness. The more you pound on us, the more you double down after we rightly shatter your revisionist fever dreams, the more people realize that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and the less freedom of movement you enjoy.

          On a personal note, these deconstructions of regressive narratives are a great benefit. You challenge us and we rightly fisk every sentence.

          • I have read, and understand your review. My point remains….the US political leadership since 1945 has had no stomach for total war. Total war as undertaken during WW2, or better, Rome dealing with Carthage. Victory in war is not a peace treaty, or an armistice, or transferring responsibility from one nation to another. Total war is the obliteration of the ability of the enemy to function and wage war. A bombing campaign designed to “bring the enemy to the conference table” is not total war, is not a military move to win a decisive victory. Victory in WW2 was hallmarked by the inability of Japan and Germany to do anything the victors did not want those nations to do. Those countries were utterly devastated, utterly subjugated. Their ability to wage war was zero, including an insurgent war. Every war the US dabbled in since has ended with agreements, and the enemy still standing (Iraq and Afghanistan included).

            To repeat, to end an insurgency, you take a biblical approach (a Roman approach, if you prefer), wipe out the populations, burn everything, salt the ground, pave over it. The West, led by the US, prefers applying enough power against enemies to get them to temporary cessation of shooting, hoping the enemy “gets the message” and will correct the error of their ways. I submit that if the US government decided to wage total war on an insurgent public, the insurgency would die, as it did with the British in Malaysia and what later became Pakistan.

            Once the insurgency in America starts, you will see unleashed “all hell”. The resentments you engender in the liberal, progressive will be given free reign. Waco was a bit of a look into the future. The government decided to discipline a disliked group and rolled-in to utterly destroy the compound and the movement. I have seen or heard nothing from the Davidians since, and since the pro-gun revolutionaries did not rise up, I think the lesson of Waco was learned.

            But, we are far afield here. The original point was, and is, that gun owners who refuse to comply with a law established democratically are no longer “good guys with a gun”. They are law breakers, deserving the full punishment the state of California can deliver. They forfeit the high ground of being the most law-abiding people in the country. No excuse can change a intentional law-breaker into a law-abiding citizen.

        • @ 2Asux — All of the safety and life-improving actions that you listed, not me, were already spreading well across the nation by the time California embraced them. Many other economic forces moved this nation. Nowadays, it actually seems that every other state but California can move any social issue forward every bit as fast and forcefully and you falsely claim California does. Which is why the 9th Circuit is the most over-turned decision maker in the country. You never noted that anywhere (which can only be expected) that the Supreme Court is reluctant to visit any decisions that have split the courts. The tides does go out, but it happily drags the sand from beneath your feet, and you actually think that the landscape is filling back in the way you want it to. It’s not, and you’ll either eventually acknowledge this, or be rightly swept away with the tide.

          • Being the most overturned court does not prove that the next case will automatically be overturned because of previous rulings. Given the temperament of the SC, it is folly to believe an eventual review of Peruta will be decided in favor of gun rights. At 4-4, the SC will let Peruta stand. At 5-4 pro-gun, we have the evidence of the court refusing to strengthen Heller/McDonald when opportunity arose, letting lower court rulings stand. At 5-4 anti-gun, the game is essentially over. When a quarterback throws a pass, there are four possible outcomes; three of them are bad. Gun owners are betting on the one good outcome.

            The above presumes no other federal appeals courts side with the right of states to regulate firearm ownership. Three 2016 SC rulings regarding gun rights preserved the regulations/restrictions of several states. With the federal courts peopled by justices who favor moving beyond the reactionary and out-dated policies of the 20th century, the SC will likely never overturn lower courts seeking to improve the safety and security of their populations.

        • @ 2Asux — Normal people don’t suddenly break down and start shooting in the first place. No, they don’t, and you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever — empirical or otherwise — of any such thing. Even if you did, which you don’t, it is anecdotal at best. The actual danger lies in the knowingly and demonstrably false belief that your irrational fears are what should drive public policy, especially to the detriment of literally everyone — including yourself — which is the only thing that gun control laws ever achieve.

        • @ 2Asux — No. There is only overwhelming evidence that, generally speaking, California lawmakers (and really lawmakers in general) are categorically wrong. That should be a very familiar state of affairs to you, anyway.

          • By what standard do you consider California lawmakers to be “wrong”? If you rely on political hopes and beliefs, those lawmakers were right as far as the majority of those voting were concerned (in referendums, elections, and legislative chambers).

            If you rely on your interpretation of the constitution, there is no definitive, argument-ending interpretation that 2A is absolute, not a one in modern times.

            It is politics, my friend. One side desires a policy become law. The law is implemented. The other side wants a policy to not become law and initiates a political contest to stop the undesired law. Neither is right or wrong as measured on some imaginary cosmic yardstick. Whichever side loses the contest, appeals can be made through the courts. Eventually one side prevails. And it starts anew the next day. It is political reality. Don’t tell me about “right” and “wrong”, tell me about whether or not you have the votes to impose your view of “right” and “wrong” on the rest of us.

            Stalin was once faced with the possible censure of the Pope (or The Vatican), for one reprehensible act or another. Stalin’s answer cut to the heart when he asked, “How many divisions does the Pope have?”. Stalin had more “votes” on his side; the Pope didn’t matter.

        • @ 2Asux — You deliberately misattributed the widespread adaptation all of those innovations to California in the first place. So, no, it’s likely not to be with gun control laws, either. Given California’s apparent lack of influence on the rest of the nation, it is prudent to not only bet against it, but against you.

          • I did not attribute all the innovations to California (but that is apparently the message received). I noted that California is the most influential state politically and economically. That is, whenever California adopts a particular policy, regardless of the origin, that policy quickly proliferates across the nation because of the economic power and political influence. An idea may start here, or there, but when California speaks, eventually the rest of the country is brought into compliance.

    • Unless you or your wife are some favor of leftist, then you need to stay there and wallow in the filth of your own making.

      • And German Jews should have just took what was coming to them. After all, they let Germany put the Nazis in power.

        Sometimes fighting at the ballot box isn’t good enough.

    • Contrary to public perception, the Las Vegas Valley, which includes Henderson, is not just the Las Vegas Strip and a bunch of casinos and night clubs. It is a metro area of some 2 million residents and has many of the same job opportunities as any other large urban complex.

      We need more POTG here to counter the Liberal influence, so all are welcome!

      • The only sticking point there is that Las Vegas Metro is rapidly running out of water. No water and it reverts to desert.

        • Lake Mead is very low, but it is hardly empty. If we stop sending quite as much water to California we should be good for quite a while.

        • Lake Mead is very low, but it is hardly empty. If we stop sending quite as much water to California we should be good for quite a while.

          That would also solve the problem of too many statist voters in California.
          Oh wait…the deceased still vote Democrat.

      • Vegas and Nevada as a whole are far more libertarian than any other political leaning. Our Democrat problem is because of horrendous gerrymandering in electoral districts that serves to over-represent these loons (a similar problem in most areas). That, and the fact that most ‘conservatives’ like to stay put (because they have jobs and lives and stuff like normal people) while the progs have no problem uprooting to a more favorable area (Dina Titus anyone?). If more normal people from California would venture over to our side of the Sierra, we could easily counter all the dumbass Californians who come here, complain about California and say how great Nevada is, then try to change this great state into the dump they left. We need to put a damn minefield out already…

        • Gerrymandering and election fraud are two of the things that are killing our society. I do believe in the democratic process, but when these things are applied this turns elections into things that are just flatly unfair and disenfranchise the voter – that is they take power away from the people.

          Obama would never have been elected in a truly fair election – that is only citizens and a completely fair election. Computerized voting for instance gives the people controlling the computers enormous opportunities for committing fraud, and I have no doubt that results were tailored just enough in the right places to slip through undetected and to push just enough electoral vote in just the right direction.

          Gerrymandering is similar – these districts are created to give political power to just the ‘right’ people; how is it that the people find this to be acceptable? Designing the shape of a district to determine the party of the winning candidate is outright fraud! The vote should represent all of the people in an area, not just the people they want. I just don’t understand why the people are not standing out in the streets with pitchforks and demanding that this stop. Districts need to be drawn up with only four right angle corners and sized such to allow equal and distributed allocation of population with zero adjustments for political power, this is easy to do.

          The vote is and has been unfair for decades, thus the results are also unfair – my vote is not counted equally, neither is yours.

          This is how we get infringement of our rights, people like Obama and Obamacare.

        • Right on sir,
          I want nothing to do with anyone from california.
          EVER! ANYWHERE!
          California you made you bed. Sleep in it or clean it up.
          When we build the wall it should go from the Gulf to the Pacific, a Branch should go up
          the East side of CA, Organ, and Washington to the Canadian border then West to the Pacific. Arm it with automatic weapons and detection.
          Do not discriminate, just shoot anything moving on or near the top.
          Or maybe on the ground within fifty yards of the fence/wall.
          And must have land mines in that area as well.

  4. Would it be too presumptuous of me to suggest you lot (gun advocates) establish a new pro-gun organization called “Good Guys with Guns who intend to break the Law and Still call ourselves Good Guys with Guns” ?

    What??? Too many syllables?

        • “… And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls, and tenement halls.
          And echo with the sounds of silence.”

          10 points for the first one to tell us where that came from.

        • “For the words of the profits are written on the studio wall… Concert hall!

          And echoes with the sounds, …of salesmen.”

          (Canadian power-trio ‘Rush’) 🙂

    • Haven’t seen you in a while. Hope you’re well. Carry on, hopefully they learn something…

          • “Nazi”

            You got there, but no prize for speed.

            Liberals and Progressives are ridiculed for calling someone a racist as a means of shutting down conversation. Rightists, conservatives, gun owners are quick to scream “Nazi” to shut down conversation in which they are incompetent to engage.

        • @ 2Asux — Leftists, faux liberals, regressives, and gun grabbers are quick to scream “Nazi” to shut down conversation in which they have been summarily out-argued. Faux liberals and regressives are rightly ridiculed for calling someone a racist without supporting evidence, which is in fact nigh universally the case mind you (revealing them as the racists by default instead), to shut down conversation on controversial topics that they deliberately, fundamentally misunderstand.

          • So, you are convinced those who likened me to Nazis were leftists, liberals and regressives? Perhaps. Seemed pretty clear to me they were gun lovers who ran out of coherent verbiage.

        • @ 2Asux — I’m convinced that it’s leftists, faux liberals, and regressives that default to likening people they don’t agree with to Nazis. That’s just what they do, because they never have any coherent verbiage from the get-go.

    • “One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.” — Martin Luther King, Jr., “Letter from a Birmingham Jail,” April 16, 1963

      • Are you saying you (probably alone) are willing to publicly disobey the new gun laws? That you would do sit-ins? That you would link arms with others from one side of the street to the other, with banners announcing you are a gun owner protesting “unjust” laws? Have you the idea that singing “We shall overcome gun laws” would make you civil rights activists like the sainted Martin?

        Or are you more likely to sneak around with a firearm, refuse privately to comply with gun laws (which is not how Martin did it) and snark on gun blogs about how brave you are?

        Even if you drape yourselves with the mantle of civil rights protest while refusing to identify yourself to authorities as gun owners, you are still “Good Guys with Guns who intend to break the Law and Still call ourselves Good Guys with Guns” . Meaning you are no longer law-abiding. Which requires you to forfeit the claim that gun owners are the most law-abiding citizens. That means you cannot claim the moral high ground, because you are now law-breakers rather than law-abiding. Or is it “gun owners are the most law-abiding citizens if they like the law”.

        • When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…

          • Another damp squib.

            To repeat myself (which so entertains me), “The witness’s answer is non-responsive. Again.”

            You sound like a ruddy politician, avoiding answering a direct question.

        • We claim the moral high ground when the DNC redraws democratic districts, protecting representatives from recall, then assigning them anti gun bills to introduce, then ramed through legislative process, it means by design, elected representatives are actively circumventing the Constitution and deliberately infringing 2A for the SOLE purpose of making law abiding citizens…law breakers.

          Soon CA will send out a letter to all gun owners to declare their legally purchased rifles and sign a document stating ownership. If they decline and later caught with a long gun, All their weapons will be confiscated and the citizen will be placed on a no buy list for ten years.

          The California legislators have declared war on lawful gun owners. They are the lawbreakers.

          • “The California legislators have declared war on lawful gun owners. They are the lawbreakers.”

            And just which “laws” would the legislators be guilty, the breaking of? Courts determine the law, and for all of 2016, courts side with reasonable gun restrictions (as, if you hadn’t noted, is what Heller allows). If you think the legislators are wrong: sue in court; build an unbeatable voting majority of your liking.

        • Quote: “Or are you more likely to sneak around with a firearm, refuse privately to comply with gun laws (which is not how Martin did it) and snark on gun blogs about how brave you are?”

          Well well – I see you are condemning snarking in a very snarky manner. You also impune the lack of bravery of other readers here that are in support of the US constitution.

          How about you give us your name and address as a symbolic exemplar of your own courage.

          FYI, before you ask, my address is 33040 S. Badger Lake Road, Cheney, WA 99004

          • “How about you give us your name and address as a symbolic exemplar of your own courage.”

            It is not I who is advocating or actively disobeying gun laws. Observation requires no particular demonstration of valor. Those who pose as valorous are self-doomed to offer proof.

            BTW, your address in not secure online, here.

        • “We claim the moral high ground when the DNC redraws democratic districts…”

          “The moral high ground is a great place to be. It’s an even better place to position mortars and machine guns.”

          • “The moral high ground is a great place to be. It’s an even better place to position mortars and machine guns.”

            Indeed. The military response is always the first choice for your (gun) school tie chums.

        • Are you saying that you (probably alone) are willing to live up to the same standards that you want to apply to others?

          Or are you more likely to sneak around on the internet, refusing to do any of these things yourself, for any cause or for any reason, and hypocritically snark on gun blogs about how morally and intellectually inferior that you feel we are?

          You can’t even drape yourself with the mantle of civil rights protest in the first place, you are still “Good Guys with Guns who intend to murder peaceable people and still ourselves Good Guys with Guns.” Or east least call on the state to do it for you. Meaning that you are no more law-abiding than you feel we are. Which then requires you to forfeit the claim that we civil rights advocates are morally and intellectually inferior. That means you cannot claim the moral high ground, because you are the law-breakers and not us. Or, is it “gun control advocates are moral and intellectually superior even if they want to kill people”?

          • “Or, is it “gun control advocates are moral and intellectually superior even if they want to kill people”?”

            I still don’t have an answer to the question.

            I have read commentary here about anti-gun people allegedly calling for death and severe harm to gun owners. I do not know anyone like that, have heard none of my mates talking about such. But I will concede the point that there are dolts and idiots on the gun safety side.

            However, after reading so many engage in virtual chest-thumping about being non-compliant, and promising a moot protest by anonymously refusing to be law-abiding regarding new gun safety laws, my question to you remains: will you protest in secret, or show courage in your convictions through public demonstration? I submit if you remain silent, you are morally inferior to those civil rights activists who knew Martin; they were public and proud. They were also effective.

        • So… if we pass a law that states you no longer have the right to free speech and then clarify that to mean “Shut the fuck up permanently upon penalty of death” does speaking against such a law make you less moral?

          Judging someone’s morality in the context of the law is a fool’s errand. The law is not necessarily moral, in fact it often is amoral. If you understood what a law was you’d know this.

          • “Judging someone’s morality in the context of the law is a fool’s errand.”

            Then, is secret non-compliance with a gun law inherently moral?

            The law is what it is, mate. Change it, comply, or be serious enough to publicly demonstrate your distaste for it.

          • “Judging someone’s morality in the context of the law is a fool’s errand.”

            Then, is secret non-compliance with a gun law inherently moral?

            The law is what it is, mate. Change it, comply, or be serious enough to publicly demonstrate your distaste for it.

            Skulking around, anonymously non-complying, is no more moral than running through a stop signal when there is no threat of being caught.

        • @ 2Asux — Which laws haven’t they broken, is the better question. Courts don’t side with “reasonable restrictions.” They don’t exist, either in theory or in fact. Gun control advocates have yet to propose any, and have yet to present any proof — empirical or otherwise — to defend their laughably inaccurate definition of what a “reasonable restriction” is. So, in all actual practice, Heller actually doesn’t allow squat outside long-standing Common Law prohibitions against the various flavors of assault on people or property. The legislators are wrong. We don’t have to think, we already know they are. But, these activist kangaroo courts don’t care. There is effectively no way to build an unbeatable majority in the courts or the legislatures that is totally faithful to the letter nor the spirit of the law.

          P.S.: The only damp squibs here are yours, regardless. To repeat myself, “TRANSLATION: I don’t like his answers! Make him say something that I can twist in something I can use against him!”

          You’re accusing others of things which you yourself are already guilty, and your questions are irrelevant non-sequiturs, anyway. Oh, and ruddy politicians are elected by people like you.

          • A personal (yours) dissatisfaction with how law is applied is just as valid as the army you have to enforce your vision. The Supreme Court is supreme. If you do not like a law, change it, repeal it, or admit you are left with few options that will be effective. The law may be “a ass”, but it is the law. Your side does not have (and hasn’t had for 50 years) the political muscle to bring about a nation to your liking. That is not the fault of those who do/did have the power. Your long posting merely underscores that you don’t like the situation, and are frustrated; reduced to complaining, but taking no action.

        • “Are you saying you (probably alone) are willing to publicly disobey the new gun laws? ”
          Did. For years. Now my actions are no longer illegal. If they were, I would publicly non comply again.

          • “Did. For years. Now my actions are no longer illegal.”

            If your actions resulted in changed law, or change of location, I respect your efforts. You took action, and should be applauded.

        • The founding fathers of our country weren’t law abiding citizens either. They put their money where their mouths were. I believe a lot of Canadians got tired of the endless gun control bills they were living under and let the government know in a quiet way that they had had enough. There is a difference between being a law abiding citizen and a person who makes a personal stand to defend their rights, however quietly or loudly they do so.

          • “The founding fathers of our country weren’t law abiding citizens either. They put their money where their mouths were.”

            The founders were law-breakers, criminals under existing laws; they knew and understood this. They also understood that if they lost, they would hang. They complained and opposed the laws, but they never complained that the consequences of defiance were unfair or unjust. Ultimately, they manifested their non-compliance bodily. They did not sit in their rooms and determine to not comply with the tax act by writing no documents needing stamps. Thus anonymously defying the government through non-action.

        • @2asux

          If you think the legislators are wrong: sue in court; build an unbeatable voting majority of your liking.

          Nah. I think we should just use bullets. It’s what Jefferson would have done.

          • Didn’t the rebel gang originally attempt to properly petition the King for redress?

        • 2asux

          “How about you give us your name and address as a symbolic exemplar of your own courage.”

          It is not I who is advocating or actively disobeying gun laws. Observation requires no particular demonstration of valor. Those who pose as valorous are self-doomed to offer proof.

          In other words, I’m a p~ssy, and I’m not going to put my address here. Lol.

          BTW, your address in not secure online, here.

          Obviously.

        • @ 2Asux — There is no validity in any law that diminishes civil rights, period. The Supreme Court is fallable is what it is. Your side does not, and has not had for the last 4 generations, the political muscle to bring about the dystopia of your liking. That is the fault of the deliberate, fundamental misunderstanding of Human nature and reality, by your side. Your irrelevant and fallacy-ridden jaunts merely underscore your own unjustified frustration at current events, and hypocritically demanding action of others — who have and do take action — when you’re doing nothing but impotently complaining yourself.

          • Human nature is crass, self-interested, selfish, immoral, base and without redeeming qualities….until taught well at the mother’s knee. Laws are for those who do not learn well.

            Fortunately, most gun owners are like you, thinking you boil crabs by throwing them into 212 degree water. Sun Tsu said to attack where the enemy is weak. Fight when the enemy is weak. You people have an attention span of a gnat. You want the result now, done forever. It is your Achilles, and we celebrate it. Rolling Stones were right.

        • IF there is even the tiniest slice of actual justice in this world, someday one of your precious little “undocumented immigrants” will gut you like a trout.

          • Again, the sputtering resort to violence when challenged by other thoughts and opinions.

        • @ Heartland Patriot — You’re really going to stoop to the level of the gun-grabbers and wish death and harm on people who disagree with you?

        • Didn’t the rebel gang originally attempt to properly petition the King for redress?

          Yeah. But he already knew he would have to resort to bullets. The petition was just for show.

        • “Quiet, anonymous, and often complicitous, lawbreaking and disobedience may well be the historically preferred mode of political action for peasant and subaltern classes, for whom open defiance is too dangerous….One need not have an actual conspiracy to achieve the practical effects of a conspiracy. More regimes have been brought, piecemeal, to their knees by what was once called “Irish Democracy”—the silent, dogged resistance, withdrawal, and truculence of millions of ordinary people—than by revolutionary vanguards or rioting mobs.”

          “Two Cheers for Anarchism” – James Scott

        • @ 2Asux — Human nature is shaped by genetics and by individual interactions across many, many generations that eventually become the culture in which individuals are brought up. (Fun Fact: spanking is nothing but harmful.) Laws are actually for those who seek security in an entity that delivers none. Namely, the state.

          You don’t have an attention span to speak of. You don’t even pay attention. You want your dystonia now, and the ends justify the means. That is your Achilles, and we capitalize on it. The Rolling Stones were wrong, and so are you.

        • “Then, is secret non-compliance with a gun law inherently moral?”

          Since “legal” (of, based on, or concerned with the law/permitted by law) and “moral” (concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character) are two different definitions this question is a non sequitur.

          Clearly a law can be immoral. Many throughout time have been. Currently Islamic law prescribes “burning” or “throwing from a height” as a form of execution and the “legal” punishment for homosexuality. Care to defend that on moral grounds?

          • Yes. Societies, nations, tribes determine what is “moral” for their culture. The punishments you describe are only immoral to non-Muslims. The ephemeral moral codes of the West are not better, worse or more moral than elsewhere; only different. You and I may judge other cultures based on what we think is moral, but what gives us moral superiority. I submit it is nothing more than our own sense of self-importance, and an economic condition more comfortable than for those whose moral code is different. What if a culture should decide there are no moral imperatives, no laws. Is that culture better, worse, unimportant compared to our sense of righteousness? Isn’t if funny how we love situational ethics for ourselves, but not for others?

        • @ 2Asux — The punishments he described are immoral, period. The ephemeral codes of the West are categorically better than elsewhere. The evidence is in the advancements in every conceivable area and aspect of daily life that we’ve made in the West, and Islamic countries simply haven’t. You are engaging in nothing more than cultural relativism, which is not an argument. Ours is an economic condition that has literally advanced Humanity in a way that no other has been able to. If a culture decides that there are no moral imperatives, then, it ceases to be a culture altogether. It is by definition worse compared to what we’ve built. We actually love to make it so situational ethics applies equally to everyone, and equally. Not that you regressives ever bothered to notice.

        • Leftists and statists have a entirely different definition of criminal. For most robbery, murder, assault, theft, fraud, rape are criminal acts. To the left, criminal acts are defined as non compliance to their edicts. In authoritarian societies just being a member of the wrong culture ethnicity or simply dissenting is considered criminal behavior.

        • “Are you saying you (probably alone) are willing to publicly disobey the new gun laws? ”
          Been there and done that.

          • If you have, indeed, then “Good on ya, mate”. Public disobedience is honorable. However, publicly breaking the law takes you out of the “most law-abiding” club.

        • “But it is illegal!” Saying something is illegal is NOT an argument against that thing. It is an appeal to authority. Laws are an arbitrary judgment made by whoever had political power at that time.

          Laws are a means for government to regulate people in a way that they see fit but that does NOT make them a universal standard of morality.

          ILLEGALITY IS NOT AN ARGUMENT!

          “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms… disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” –Cesare Beccaria, On Crimes and Punishment –Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book

          “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.”–Tacitus

          “Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.” –(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killers hands.) –Lucius Annaeus Seneca

          • Extraordinary. Thank you.

            Finally, I have it in the words of a gun owner. Law is determined solely at the pleasure, convenience and advantage of the individual and at the expense of all others and all else.

        • @2ASux

          You don’t want me to “protest” publicly. It would involve a every single person who voted for this treason getting dragged out into the street and staked.

          Oh, and your critical analysis of the Civil War neglects one really important thing. During the Civil War, asymmetric warfare was not a thing. Why do you think the Taliban is still in Afghanistan almost 15 years after we kicked them out of power?

          • The Taliban continue to exist because the US and the allied nations refused a Biblical solution – burn everything to the ground, tear apart the bricks, kill the crops and all the men, women and children. War is too important to be left to civilians.

        • @ 2Asux — No, thank you.

          We (yet again) have it in the words of a gun grabber: law is determined solely at the pleasure, convenience, and advantage of the government and at the expense of all others and all else — including the people (you) that voted for it.

        • @ 2Asux — The Taliban actually continues to exist because the U.S. and the allied nations are funding and arming them (not to mention they’re a Pakistani ISI creation anyway), as well as continuing illegal drone strikes and destabilization of sovereign nation-states, without a formal declaration of war nor the necessary justification for one which is driving disaffected people to them in the first place. War is too important to be left to governments.

          • “War is too important to be left to governments.”

            Agree. That is what I meant by “civilians”. Your statement is better.

        • MLK, perhaps, but MLK jr. was politically conservative and applied for (and was denied) a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

          The fact that his protests were non-violent does not mean that he was opposed to his people being armed for self defense.

          • MLK actually had a handgun, for a bit. He decided at some point that the gun interfered with his moral argument for non-violence.

        • @ 2Asux — MLK not only hand a handgun, he had many guns. A reporter even once called his home “an arsenal,” after being waved off of one chair to avoid sitting on a revolver. The Deacons For Defense accompanied him most everywhere he went in public after they were formed, and they were heavily armed. There were never any moral quandaries there.

      • Courts determine the law

        I must have slept through that lesson in civics class. I’d have swore it was the legislature and the executive.

        Learn something every day.

        • Legislatures make the law; executives do not.

          Courts determine how a law shall be applied, or if it shall stand atall. Ergo, courts determine the law. Just as taught in your universities.

        • @ 2Asux — Legislatures are wrong far more often than they’re right. Courts, even more so. Just as is taught by reality, assuming you’ve been paying attention.

          • Oh yes, courts and legislatures, kings and presidents are often wrong. But the law remains the law until it is modified or repealed. Consequences for violations are legitimate until the law changes. You are free to not comply with any law you like, but you forfeit the right to complain about the consequences when you are caught.

        • P.S.: Executives do make law, by the way. Just ask our imperialist “President.”

        • @ 2Asux — No, the law is not the law if it runs contrary to any of our natural rights. Consequences for breaking such laws are not even remotely legitimate, either. Nobody forfeits any right to complain about such laws, and the so-called “violators” have even more room to complain about the consequences of such laws than anybody else.

          P.S.: Yes, that one.

          And Abraham Lincoln. And The Roosevelts. And Nixon. And… I need not even go on.

          • Do explain to your barrister that you demand he submit “the law is not the law” as your defense against charges of violating some ordinance you dislike. And be sure to tell the judge he/she is not empowered to enforce unjust laws. They do still allow writing privileges in American jails.

        • @ 2Asux– I will indeed, and I will also duly inform the judge that they are in fact empowered not to enforce unjust laws. Regardless of whether or not I go to prison doesn’t change the fact that unjust laws are not laws, at all.

          • Theories, wishes and imaginations have much different impact on life than does reality.

        • @ 2Asux — You should really that to heart yourself before trying to lecture anybody else.

      • Would you accept 221B Baker Street, London ?

        I knew it. I was just about to make a comment about you being here on account of still being sore about Brexit and Nigel’s speech to EU and the need to take it out on someone.

        • An *excellent* point.

          2Asux, is your nose a bit out of joint from the ‘Brexit’ vote not going your way? 🙂

          • Brexit is meaningless. There is money to be made either way. Political points to score. Just another episode of the eternal European soap opera. Besides, the EU was fashioned merely to end the endless primitive wars of conquest, and substitute cash for weapons. The beat goes on.

        • @ 2Asux — BREXIT is anything but meaningless. Otherwise, there simply would not have been a referendum on it to start with. The EEC has actually morphed into, and was meant to become, the ineffectual, corrupt, and greedy bureaucratic monster that we all see today in the E.U. The economic stagnation that it has brought about is simply going to continue anew the primitive cycle of endless wars and conquest, and substituting cash for weapons. The beat goes on, indeed.

          • Brexit may have meaning to others, but the question was put to me (or, rather, the statement that I must have my panties in a twist over Brexit). My reply remains. Money knows no borders, it goes where it can prosper best (even the maligned Nazis understood the value of leaving Switzerland alone). In the EU/out of the EU; there is money to be made.

        • Depending on where you live, you can be thrown in jail or even executed by the state.

          • Where I live permits the writing, and where you live permits the reading. It’s all good, eh?

        • @ 2Asux — Where you live permits the writing for now. I’ll just simply keep reading regardless of it ever becoming illegal.

    • Oh look who’s back-you should change that moniker to plain ‘ole SUX…hey slavery was legal too sux. No duty to obey unconstitutional laws. “Shall not be infringed”…

        • TRANSLATION: “I don’t like his answers! Make him say something that I can twist into something I can use against him!”

          They’re answering your queries, directly and concisely. Whether you accept them or not is irrelevant and of no consequence.

          • No, they are not. Re-read the original comment, then review the responses. Not one answer on point.

        • Yes, they are. Try taking your own advice, for once, and actually re-read the responses yourself. Plenty of on-point answers to your irrelevant, fallacy-ridden queries.

          Whether you accept them or not is irrelevant and of no consequence.

        • Your original comment suggested that good guys can no longer call themselves good guys if they break bad laws. It didnt even deserve a response.

          • Since Reconstruction, the need for personal firearms has grandly diminished regards defense against a supposed “tyrannical government”. Guns for sustaining the family no longer has the impetus it once did. With danger receding in each subsequent generation, with professional police forces (which do need proper cleansing from time to time), with modernization of Western societies, the world has changed for the better. Time to let go relics from the past.

            Yes, the second amendment made great sense in the first 100 years.

        • @ 2Asux — “Need” is and always has been an irrelevant (non)argument. Rights do not change with the march of time or technology, and are not subject to the democratic process nor to (non)arguments grounded in social utility, either. “Professional” police forces do not have to protect you, they don’t even have to enforce court orders of protection or to even retain arrested persons in their custody.

          The only relics that need letting go of is statism.

          Yes, the Second Amendment still makes sense today — and it will for the foreseeable future.

      • The prosecuting attorney is a useful idiot, your honor. It remains to be seen if you are as well.

        Molon Labe.

    • Would it be too presumptuous of us to suggest that you lot (gun control advocates) establish a(nother) gun control organization called “Good Guys with Guns who intend to murder peaceable people and still ourselves Good Guys with Guns”?

      Y’know, because there are an awful lot of gun control advocates wanting to shoot gun owners simply for the fact that they exist. Or call on the government to do it for them, the cowards.

      What? Too much honesty?

      • “Y’know, because there are an awful lot of gun control advocates wanting to shoot gun owners simply for the fact that they exist.”

        Yes, well, I’ll be having no truck with those wankers. Wish I could exile them to your side.

        • I live in a state ran by liberals who decided it was okay to ignore federal marijuana laws and even go as far as to lisense people to sell schedule 1 drugs recreationally. Can you believe it, they’re breaking the law! An entire state! Federal laws! Yeah, I didn’t think you’d be outraged at that.

          • “Can you believe it, they’re breaking the law! An entire state! Federal laws! Yeah, I didn’t think you’d be outraged at that.”

            No one should be outraged. Nothing in the constitution permits the federal government to set drug possession and usage laws. States retain the right to determine legal activity within their borders. But to your likely point, states are openly defying federal law, not secretly engaging in anonymous non-compliance.

            However, since courts have not flattened attempts by government to regulate such private behavior as drug usage, then however courageous non-compliant states are, they are breaking the law and should be dealt with severely by the federal government. I believe in protesting and petitioning to get federal laws changed, as well as states asserting their individual rights to self-governance.

        • @ 2Asux — I rightly doubt that, being that your side either quietly refuses to chastise them or even goes so far to loudly defend such talk because you lot somehow feel it’s justified. No, they well and truly belong with you on your side, and nowhere else.

        • @ 2Asux — Nothing in the Constitution permits the federal government to set gun control laws, either. Again, outside Common Law prohibitions against the various flavors of assault on people and property. In fact, the Constitution, as well as decades of case law, expressly forbid a whole lot of actions taken by the federal government.

          And no, non-compliant people people that are doing nothing to harm anyone should not be dealt with at all. Whatever your beliefs, they don’t matter in the face of objective logic: there is absolutely no measurable utility whatsoever, regardless of any metric used, in prosecuting people for victim-less crimes.

          • Oh, I agree the wording of 2A makes it clear that the federal government is prohibited from controlling guns in the hands of the people. I also contend the states have the right to make such restrictions (read the original arguments and you will see that the states had restrictions that were constitutionally acceptable for generations. However, federal or state, sensible gun controls are a valid effort to provide for the pursuit of happiness of those who fear and/or do not have guns, along with everyone else.

            I also agree that the courts make the final determinations about what the constitution prohibits and what it permits. Those decisions may change (as they have), but while in effect they are the law; violators to be punished.

            BTW, there are no controlling documents in law that identify anything called “a victimless crime”. If a law exists, and one violates it, then justice is served by punishing those who would seek to become law unto themselves. Upholding a law is important for the upholding of all law.

        • “Wankers”, oh, now I get it, you’re a Brit. Already disarmed, and you want everyone else to be disarmed, too. Go fornicate yourself.

          • Oh, yes. Do validate the opinion of Americans held by Parliament and most of England in, oh, about 1775; bumpkins.

          • Actually, old man, I am a Bernie supporter. He is still fund-raising, but some of us are taking the weekend off to re-energize. Please watch for us at the Democratic Convention (Americans have trouble with the language…it is the Democrat Party, not the Democratic Party, so the convention is actually the Democrat Convention. Oh, dash is all, why do I bother?). I think you will be talking about it for quite some time,

            BTW, Bernie is using Fabian tactics.

            • Actually, old man, I am a Bernie supporter.

              We got a socialist in here! It just keeps getting worse. The Brits themselves coined the term “nanny state” which I so adamantly adore and use often. And now we have a Bernie “where is my free stuff from the government” guy here.

              He is still fund-raising, but some of us are taking the weekend off to re-energize. Please watch for us at the Democratic Convention (Americans have trouble with the language…it is the Democrat Party, not the Democratic Party…

              Are you sure it’s not democratic socialism?

              • Do come along, old boy, Democratic Socialists are near-reactionaries; too right wing.

        • @ 2Asux — There is literally no such thing, whatsoever, as a “sensible” gun control law. Not outside Common Law, anyway. So, no, gun control is not in any way, shape, or form a valid effort to pursue anything at all, ever. That’s not a mere opinion, but an objective fact. Oh, and those who fear or do not have guns do not have any right to pursue happiness through restricting the rights of their fellows who are not harming them. Their fears have absolutely no bearing on the peaceable exercise of rights by anyone, anywhere, at any time, under any circumstance.

          Regardless of whatever you happen to agree on, when the courts are wrong, their decisions are not law. This does not change whether or not the government decides to act in accordance with the courts wishes.

          BTW, there need not even be any controlling documents identifying a victim-less crime in the first place. If all parties involved in an action consent and no one is injured, no crime has been committed, period. Upholding unjust laws damages any and all efforts to uphold all law.

          • “Oh, and those who fear or do not have guns do not have any right to pursue happiness through restricting the rights of their fellows who are not harming them.”

            OK, let’s test that: It is late at night. You are traveling on a deserted rural roadway, approaching an intersection. There is no other traffic. You observe a stop sign. You decide that not stopping will save time, save wear and tear on the car brakes. You do not hesitate at the sign, and roll through. An unobserved policeman now pulls you over and writes a ticket for failure to stop. You counter that no one was hurt by your activity, therefore receiving a traffic violation is un-whatever your claim might be. How do you expect the rest of the story to play out?

            You see, if you object to laws regulating behavior when and where no other person is harmed, you countenance rampant disrespect for law and the law. Getting away often for violating a law is not an affirmative defense the one time you are caught.

        • @ 2Asux — You’ve already validated the opinion of Britons held by Americans and most of the world in, oh, about 1775 through to today: greedy tools.

        • @ 2Asux — What does that have to do with gun control laws? Absolutely nothing, is the answer that you’re looking for. It’s not even analogous. No, it’s not. You still need to explain to me how merely owning a gun, much less peaceably carrying one, poses any danger at all to anyone. I’ll even go ahead and save you a lot of time and more wear-and-tear on your keyboard by answering that query for you: you won’t because you can’t, and you can’t because it doesn’t.

          You see, if you impose laws regulating behavior when and where no other person is or can be harmed, you instill rampant disrespect for the law in those that see right through your (non)arguments. Getting scared of an inanimate object is not an affirmative defense for arbitrarily restricting the rights of peaceable people.

          • I am not afraid of guns. I am afraid of guns in the hands of who knows who. Guns don’t commit mass shootings. Lately, “good guys with guns” do. Almost every mass shooting in the US since 2000 (pick a year) was committed by someone who legally possessed the firearms, or used guns legally purchased by someone else. How many of the mass shooters were “bad guys” before they started shooting?

        • @ 2Asux — If you support gun control, you are afraid of guns. Not people, guns. Lately, “good guys with guns” don’t commit mass shootings, either. Almost every mass shooting since 1980 was committed by someone who had a disqualifying history of mental illness or some kind of felony and should not have been able to purchase guns in the first place, or used guns illegally straw purchased for them by someone else or that they had stolen themselves. Hardly any of them were “good guys,” and nearly all of them committed their massacres in places where their victims were arbitrarily disarmed.

          • I am not afraid of guns. I am afraid of unreliable, unknown, untrained, undisciplined, mentally and physically impaired people with guns. Removing the people would be a bit much, don’t you think? Common sense gun regulation seems more compassionate.

            The notion that the majority of mass shooters since 2000 were identified/identifiable “bad guys with guns” before they started shooting flies in the face of numerous statistics published here, wherein the conclusion was that background checks are useless because this or that mass shooter passed the checks and snapped anyway.

        • @ 2Asux — You are afraid of guns. There is no rational explanation for supporting gun control, other than simple (and often willful) ignorance. There is no such thing as “common sense” when it comes to gun control, either. At all. Nor could you even begin to defend any claims that there is.

          The notion that the majority of the mass shootings since 200 weren’t identified/identifiable “bad guys” before they started shooting is what actually flies in the face of numerous statistics published here, wherein the conclusion was that the government repeatedly failed — on multiple levels — to update its precious background check systems that the shooters ultimately passed. It was either this, or those that knew and interacted with the shooters failed to act.

      • I have a nice collection of gun control supporter screen shots calling for the use of large scale violence and even genocide against gun owners and their families. The calls for violence by gun control supporters on social media has accelerated in recent weeks. And they see no hypocrisy in this.

        • Yes, those you speak of are a tiresome crowd. Wish we could separate them out. Fortunately, they are a miserable minority who do not deflect national attention away from the more sensible among us.

        • @ 2Asux — Unfortunately for you, and fortunately for us, they are the face of the gun control movement because literally no one on that side even so much as bothers to condemn them, much less police their own social media channels for their rhetoric. If gun control advocates were sensible, they wouldn’t be gun control advocates.

          • Alas, you may be correct; both sides of the issue are seemingly publicly identified as being unhinged troglodytes.

        • 2Asux – “Yes, those you speak of are a tiresome crowd. Wish we could separate them out. Fortunately, they are a miserable minority who do not deflect national attention away from the more sensible among us.”

          And now you know exactly how WE feel when YOU point to the tiny fraction of a percentage of nut jobs who do bad things with guns, and then call for new laws that treat all gun owners as if they were adequately represented by said tiny, tiny, tiny… wair for it… tiny minority. It’s not fair to judge the overwhelming majority by the actions of the infinitesimal minority, is it?

          • I do not judge all gun owners by the idiotic bombast of the few. Not all gun owners are bombastic idiots. I do judge the deadly threat of untrained, undisciplined, untested gun owners at large, from which the minor population who commit ND derive. On a risk cube, the event is a one, but the impact is a five. The five is loss of innocent life; intolerable. Dress it up, set and meet gun handling standards for all gun owners, or be prepared for others to fashion the solution for you. If gun owners would do those things listed, I would abandon the “anti-gun” movement. Not the Bernie movement, but the anti-gun movement. And I would spend the effort to influence however many on this side of the need to follow suit.

        • @ 2Asux — Then you are a rare sub-set of gun grabbers. Assuming that this is even true, of course, which I rightly doubt. However, you still knowingly and erroneously misjudge a “threat” that you just as knowingly and equally erroneously blow completely out of proportion. On the risk cube, the impact is one, and the effect is also one, if not less. The one or less is the actual loss of life. There are orders of magnitude more lives saved than taken, which you’d know had you actually ever read this blog. Stop lying, or be prepared for others to continue stamping out your lies for you. Guns owners do all of those things, and whether you think so or not is irrelevant and of no consequence. You are wrong, as is usual. Meaning that, by default, you simply won’t give up the gun-grabbing movement regardless of what happens, anyway. (Fun Fact: Bernie Sanders is an economic illiterate.) It’s no wonder that support for gun control is rightly disappearing, with the sole exceptions of those cesspools where your lot already has super-majority control.

          • Are you honestly saying the impact to the victim of an ND (or “good guy” gone bad mass shooting) is less than one?

            The overall risk assessment may result in a factor less than 5, but the impact is not lessened by the likelihood. One may have a near zero probability/likelihood of being struck by a house-sized asteroid, but the impact of such would certainly be devastating. My choice of managing risk is to mitigate disaster before it can happen, manage the lesser risks.

            Since asset I am trying to protect through risk management is me, the opinion of others regarding the impact of disaster is unimpressive. YMMV

    • Pretty much a given that ANYTHING you suggest or propose here is not only presumptuous, but ridiculous. But you are entertaining. At least once a day I find myself needing a good laugh and behold, there you are.

      By the way, I’m starting to believe that 2Asux is actually Piers Morgan.

      • Yep, 2asux shows up and there are 260 comments on the thread.

        People need to learn to ignore this guy completely, he does not discuss things, all this guy posts is propaganda and thread pollution.

        Ignore everything he posts and he will go away.

        • @ 2Asux — Oh, you mean the default status of any and all gun-grabber forums, who summarily — without exception — immediately block and delete the comments of any and all dissenters (even their own) no matter how polite, contrite, and factually-accurate their reservations may be. (Something you might have noticed that TTAG clearly doesn’t do.)

          Yes, your echo chambers mustn’t be disturbed.

          • The defense, “We’re no worse than some others” is rather hollow. When your side tauts their superiority, their resort to reason and logic, (which most gun sense blogs do not), then you set the standard, and are responsible to act according to your own standards. I thought this blog was populated with people mature enough to defend their politics and beliefs over the long term. Members who name-call and insist opposing views be ignored or stopped are of the type they claim to detest. But perhaps the internecine fighting amongst yourselves, where you argue who is the most pure gun lover, where you fracture over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, is all the differing that can be tolerated.

            As for echo chambers, why do you think I spend time here? I do not want to live in the echo chambers of the popular anti-gun organizations. I rather expected better of TTAG.

      • Oh no. He’s much more intelligent than piers Morgan. You have to admit that in the least.

    • Just when you thought the 2A is by definition for those that become outlawed just by merely sitting in the couch and some politician signing a piece of paper

    • Morality and the law are not always one in the same. If those following the law made people “good guys” then the extreme left gestapo of the “National Socialist German Workers’ Party” ( I.e Nazis) would have been great stand up guys.

      • Someone here already noted that law and morality are not synonyms. However, a claim to morality that is proffered by people willing to abide only those laws they find convenient, is balderdash.

        Most Western societies hold murder to be both illegal and immoral. But in many parts of the world, remorseless killing of outsiders (whoever that may be) is morally acceptable.

        We in the West love to believe we have a holy purchase on morality (as in, whatever it is we don’t like or want others to like), mostly because we look to the law to instruct us in what is moral. Looking at the mores of some other cultures, we are wrong, naive, ignorant, and legitimate prey.

        If you think a law immoral, change it. Complaining is useless. Anonymous non-compliance does not invalidate a law. Everyone who believes they succeed and win because they refuse to comply with a law, justly deserve their punishment when the authorities determine a violation occurred.

        • @ 2Asux — Only according to you and your own wholly subjective views of morality. There is no claim to morality in following unjust laws..

          We in the West actually like to look to our morality to make law, as dangerous as that can be. It doesn’t matter what other cultures like or do. They’re wholly inapplicable here, in any context whatsoever. We are (thankfully) not them, and they are not us.

          We know a lot of laws are immoral. Changing them, however, is simply not going to happen. You’re doing nothing but complaining here yourself. And no, people who defy unjust laws and harm no one in the process don’t deserve any punishment at all. The so-called “authorities” are wrong, in that there is absolutely no utility whatsoever in punishing people for victim-less crimes.

          • A law is a law. A law-abiding citizen recognizes that adherence (obedience?) to law is proper until that law is changed or overturned. It is how civilized nations work. If changing laws is not going to happen, you admit defeat and the responsibility to abide by even those laws you think objectionable. Or at least you concede that penalties for ignoring the laws are just consequence.

            Given you’ve agreed laws are not going to change in your favor, why would you venture out publicly to advertise your fatalism?

        • @ 2Asux — A law is scribble on parchment by a gaggle of war criminals and sociopaths who are wholly disconnected from their constituents. A law-abiding citizen recognizes that adherence to sensible laws is what’s proper. That is how civilized nations work. If changing nonsensical laws is not going to happen, we actually peaceably disobey said laws until they are repealed because we have the moral and civil duty to do so.

          Given that I’ve rightly stated that the laws aren’t changing through the normal channels, I am venturing to publicly advertise my resistance. Civil disobedience can render and has rendered many a law de-facto moot.

          • Civil disobedience and refusal to engage are not the same. Ghandi did not gain his moral authority by refusing to take on the British Army, and staying home. He could have simply refused to use anything British, including public communications outlets. Instead he gained his authority by openly (and peacefully) defying the government.

            But as I noted elsewhere: please continue to not engage; it suits us.

        • @ 2Asux — Civil disobedience and refusing to engage are exactly the same. Gandhi did gain his moral authority by refusing to use violence, to include not engaging the British Army, and nobody said anything about staying at home except you — which can only tell us that that’s what you would do, anyway.

          But, as I and many others have others have rightly observed elsewhere: please continue to be ignorant. It suits us.

    • In case you are not aware (and your name clearly suggests you are an oblivious fascist…. I mean, leftist) the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are the rule of the land, not the Courts or Daddy Government. In fact, the Second Amendment is there to affirm the people’s right to defy and gut out both of those institutions the moment they fancy themselves owners of the country.

      The Second Amendment states clearly that a popular militia (not the Army or Marines or whatever new excuse you guys invented, because the Founding Fathers clearly stated that a standing army was the path to doom for the country) is mandatory for the upkeep of a free state, and then goes on to state that the right of the PEOPLE (not the militia, the PEOPLE) to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That means never, and by absolutely no means. And it also says arms, not muskets, which, by the way, weren’t the only things available as armament and certainly not the cutting edge.

      So yes, these stupid laws are unconstitutional and, as such, illegal, and the American citizens have an obligation towards these documents and their rights to fight against such laws, either legally, by non-compliance, or (if needed be) by shedding the blood of those who have betrayed the Constitution by enacting those treacherous laws (hopefully it will never come to that, but you fascism lovers seem so intent on it that I doubt it).

      And before you try to wiggle your way out with some other BS, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights do not grant any rights, they simply state and reaffirm their status as unalienable rights that every citizen of such country (and every human being in the world, for that matter) has for the simple fact of being a human being, so even if you pulled a miracle out of your collective ass and repealed the Second Amendment, armed defense will still be a right of the people, and they will fight you to reinstate it because government has no authority to regulate your rights into oblivion. But my guess is that you won’t do the fighting, you’ll send other people to do that, that’s the style of the left.

      Be ashamed of the fact that I, a foreigner, know more about the meaning of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights than you.

      • “… the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are the rule of the land, not the Courts or Daddy Government.”

        Says who? The courts. The national and state constitutions envision no situation where every individual determines what is lawful whenever it suits.

        Selectively declaring this law or that is unconstitutional does not make one immune from consequences of guessing wrong.

        Like it or not, you are left with elections and the courts.

        • @ 2Asux — No, says the Constitution and We, The People. No, the government is not and absolutely does not represent We, The People, either. The national and state Constitutions envision no situation where either the national or state governments can so flagrantly disregard any part of the Bill of Rights.

          Yet, they do.

          Selectively declaring which rights apply where does not for the sake of political convenience does not give governments legitimacy in their actions.

          Like it or not, the so-called “elections” (READ: meaningless dog and pony shows that are rigged anyway) and these activist kangaroo courts don’t matter at this point.

          • Meaning what, exactly? Have you and your army crossed the Rubicon? Have you positioned yourself to launch an armed attack on agents of the government? What “intolerant” act has the government taken that makes it “now the revolution” for you?

        • @ 2Asux — Meaning exactly what I said. I don’t need an army, nor do I need to cross any supposed lines of defense. I don’t even need to attack agents of the state, for that matter. There are a great many acts that the government has seen fit to partake in that are disagreeable to the vast majority of people. Mass surveillance, drug prohibition, military adventurism. One could write an encyclopedia on it.

          • Holding your breath until you turn blue will not be an effective (thankfully) measure of protest. Those who believe they can outsmart the government live a folly. When thousands and thousands of gun owners do not comply, do not be surprised to find more laws that put gun owners at risk of arrest when they are caught by virtue of an unrelated violation. You see, if laws prohibiting gun activities are passed (no transport, no outside the home use, purchase of more ammunition than a defined amount, etc) the result is that which is desired; fewer guns in public. You see, Heller said “in the home”. Laws can be constructed so as to make it more likely non-compliant gun owners will actually trip-up, and be found in violation.

        • @ 2Asux — Again, as I’ve rightly pointed out to you elsewhere, literally nobody said anything about holding their breath or keeping everything secret except for you. That can only tell us that that’s what you would do, anyway, since you so casually throw such accusations around knowing you have no evidence to even make them in the first place. Those who believe we can’t outsmart the government live a lie. When millions and millions of gun owners do not comply, as is already the case even now, do not be surprised to find more gun control laws being repealed or simply going unenforced thanks to enormity of the logistics of it all, if nothing else. You see, if onerous gun control laws are passed, the result is NOT that which is desired. You see, Heller combined with McDonald said, “For any legal purpose,” which includes self-defense outside the home. Had you actually ever read any of the relevant case law, you’d know that. Legislators can construct all the laws they want: they won’t get what they want, not in a thousand years.

        • @2Asux

          But we are far afield of the topic: Deliberately refusing to comply with a properly established law makes one a law-breaker, and can no longer be considered “one of the most law-abiding” people in the country (gun owners).

          Hey! You nailed it! So we’re all in agreement, then, that there’s no need for any of us to obey unconstitutional Federal “laws.”

          And it amuses me that you keep thinking that we will get our panties in a twist when you keep saying that when we disobey “laws,” we will no longer be “the most law-abiding people.” Keep at it!

      • By his literary style and vocabulary of colloquialisms 2Asux is also a foreigner, or at least an immigrant.

        To all of you who come here legally I say this – if you didn’t like our country, why did you immigrate? If there is something you object to, there are Constitutional means to change it, use them, not unconstitutional laws and judicial activism.

        If you still don’t like it, go the hell back where you came from.

        • “If you still don’t like it, go the hell back where you came from.”

          “Because I don’t want to share, change or tolerate anyone who doesn’t look and think like me”.

          Or words to that effect ?

        • @ 2Asux — More like, “We have no obligation to change anything about ourselves to accommodate you, you came to us. Adapt or GTFO.”

          • I get it: no Jews, no Irish, no Italian, no Chinese….because such people might want to add something to our culture that would require change. We musn’t dilute the blood line with mud people.

        • @ 2Asux — No, you actually don’t get it. At all. Nobody said anything like that, or even remotely implied it, except for you. That can only tell us far and away more about you, than us. Like it or not, assimilation is the key to success for any immigrant population into their host society under any circumstance you can think of. (Fun Fact: Jews and Far East Asians typically do better in majority white societies than even whites do — because they adapt better.)

          • I was not the one to say “America, love it or leave it.” When one says to an immigrant, “If you don’t like it here (meaning being like us), then go back where you came from”, the conclusion can only be that the person making that declaration does not want anyone here who is different.

        • @ 2Asux — The fact remains that if an immigrant is not willing to assimilate into and abide by the customs of their host culture, then they are simply not going to succeed. That’s literally all there is to it. As the old adage goes, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

          • Vast difference between refusing to assimilate and complaining about something. The original charge was that if I emigrate to a country (your country?), and I do not like something, then I should leave, and go back. Xenophobia defined. Or egocentricity?

        • I really haven’t been getting involved much – as others are doing such a good job, but I must take exception to this:

          I get it: no Jews, no Irish, no Italian, no Chinese….because such people might want to add something to our culture that would require change. We musn’t dilute the blood line with mud people.

          They may not necessarily add to our culture but take something away from our culture. Kind of like guns. They are welcome to join us so long as they embrace the constitution. It has nothing to do with blood or any of that nonsense. My kids are half Asian and they will be of my culture. My spouse came here to escape her country – not to bring it here to the United States.

          And don’t be a hypocrite. Do you want all of your granddaughters to wear burkas and speak Arabic? Incompatible cultures should remain segregated. In this way they both may pursue their happiness and not be forced a culture they do not wish to accept.

          • The original charge was one of casting off anyone who registered a complaint about life in America. Merely the claim that no one who was different, or held differing ideas from the current occupants of the US should be resident. Nothing about difficulties of assimilation, or clash of cultures.

        • @2asux

          …the conclusion can only be that the person making that declaration does not want anyone here who is different.

          Congratulations. You got it. I do not want communist government brought here. I do not want my granddaughter to be concealed in a burka. I don’t want my grandchildren regressing to socialism, communism, and disregard all the rights that my family fought and died for – so no.

        • @ 2Asux — Nobody said there wasn’t a difference. Xenophobia is actually defined by an absolute shutting out of all others unlike the tribe. You’re more than welcome to come here, as long as you play by our rules. You don’t like our rules? Either make a persuasive argument as to why they need to change (which you’re clearly incapable of doing anyway) or GTFO. The only xenophobia, egocentricity, or ethnocentrism here to be seen is, in fact, yours.

          You see, as I rightly dictated to you elsewhere, those who causally throw out accusations willy-nilly, knowing full-well they have no evidence to even justify them to start with, are the very things they want to label others.

          • What you have said is, “If you do not hold the thoughts, opinions, persuasions, myths, legends, of our tribe, you are unwelcome; get out.” Isn’t that the example of Xenophobia as you defined it? If I say, I don’t like XYZ, I think it needs inclusion of ABC, and someone should do something about it, often the response here and parts of America is, “America; like it or leave it. We don’t need no stinkin’ changing.” Seems to be a statement of a requirement to conform to the tribe in all matters, at all times. It is also proof that a person has completely emptied their intellectual magazine.

            But we are far afield of the topic: Deliberately refusing to comply with a properly established law makes one a law-breaker, and can no longer be considered “one of the most law-abiding” people in the country (gun owners).

        • @ 2Asux — There was no casting off anyone who registered a complaint about life in America in the first place. Nobody ever said that anyone who holds differing ideas should not be residents, except for you.

        • @ 2Asux — What I have actually said is, “If you don’t like our rules, and cannot make a convincing argument as to why they need to change (which you haven’t because you literally can’t), then either abide or get out.” That’s not xenophobia even as you misinterpret it. So, not, there actually isn’t a requirement to conform to the tribe in all matters, at all times. One was never imposed or even implied at any time, and you know that. You just can’t make any good arguments as to why things need to change, which is why you now knowingly and falsely accuse us of being xenophobes. That is also actually proof that you never even had anything to load your intellectual magazine in the first place, and that you are guilty of being everything that you’ve knowingly projected onto us.

          Deliberately refusing to comply with an improper law does not necessarily bar one from being considered one of the most law-abiding people in the country.

    • 2asux, I have refrained from giving you fodder to comment on for some time, but here it is. You comment on how we (gun rights advocates) can still call ourselves good guys, if we plan on breaking the law. I would try to articulate to you my feelings on the matter in my own words, but I am no master of prose and some one else has already said it better than I can. read and take to heart, because I certainly did.

      Did you really think we want those laws observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.

      • I read the entire quote. Interesting.

        You affirm my observation that there are no law-abiding gun owners. Only those who own a gun and are an instant away from being non law-abiding. (and that includes progressives who are gun owners).

        • The essence of that quote has nothing to do with gun rights. it has to do with governmental interference in MY life period. I don’t know where you are from or what your background is, but if you allow governmental restrictions on something as mundane as firearms, what else are you willing to allow your government to restrict.

          To me gun laws have nothing to do with guns. They have everything to do with the state enacting policy that limits the rights of citizens in order to control said citizens. If you are on board with the government controlling citizens, then I have an extensive list of reading material.that I would encourage you to read. start with,
          an American in the gulag, the gulag archipelago, a day in the life of Ivan denisovich, the rape of nanking, and more. read history, and then think about what you say and the long term consequences that your beliefs eventually lead to.

        • So what? That’s why our country has been so vigilant against laws that create instances of prior restraint for any of our rights. Any law abiding person could violate any law at any time. Why single out gun owners?

          • Because you could become a murderer in an instant, and we have a natural and civil right not to be randomly killed just to make your hobby more pleasant for you.

            And we are not singling-out guns as is normally thought, we are talking gun rights because this blog is about guns. Duh.

            • You could become a murderer by stepping on the gas in your car, stabbing your spouse or others with a knife, swinging a baseball bat or a tire iron. But most people don’t. In essence you are saying that gun rights should be removed because a criminal act might happen (pre-crime), not because of someone’s criminal misconduct. You illogically equate gun owners, of whom there are millions, with murderers just waiting to act, despite the lack of any objective evidence to support this radical idea. The fallacy is demonstrated because the same illogic applies to any object that can be used to commit a homicide. Shall we all live in padded cells so that we can be “safe”?
              You do not have a “right” guaranteed by the constitution to be safe, to not be attacked. But you do have a natural right to defend yourself, a right guaranteed from interference by governmental authority. The Bill of Rights is not a code of conduct between individuals, it is a limitation on the power of the government vis-a-vis the citizens and the states that created it. The major defining difference between the federal government as established by the Constitution and European governments of the era (and to this day) is that it establishes that the citizens and the States are the sovereigns, to whose power the federal government is supposed to be subservient. The Bill of Rights was put down to limit federal governmental power, not to protect individuals from harms inflicted by other individuals..

              • Yes, yes. All wonderful thoughts about a time long ago. Once the controls on national government were devolved upon the states, in you own country you have that European type government you so hate: states are mere political sub-divisions of national government. The original compact between states/citizens and the national government was rendered moot (unless, of course states act positively where the national government cannot muster the political majority to pass appropriate laws).

                Long ago, the US became a normal national government. Old legends die slowly, but facts are also stubborn. States and citizens are subject to national authority.

              • I don’t disagree; this was the result of the Civil War. One could easily argue that the federal government usurped the power that was reserved to the States and to the People, and has been acting illegitimately ever since. On the other hand, national unity has had demonstrable positive outcomes. This is why we have the we have the Second Amendment; it is a final defense to creeping tyranny, reserving to the People the legal right to overthrow the government when it has exceeded its authority. It is the natural progression of bureaucracies and of governments to devolve to tyrannical institutions, of which we have so many historical examples. Republics become democracies of the mob, which are overthrown by benevolent dictators, which are succeeded by inherited monarchies. We see this in America today, as the wage gap grows, the middle class shrinks, and the Democrat Party thinks it is wise to throw out not just the Second Amendment, but the rights to innocent until proven guilty and due process of law. That, my friend, is tyranny, and it is indeed frightening.

              • You responded to the second part of my comment, but not the first. Is it your position that the mere possession of a firearm makes one a murderer who has simply not yet acted? How is that a sensible position, when you yourself agree that the vast majority of violent crime in this country is committed in the inner cities, between criminals who more often than not, either due to age or criminal conviction, have no right to possess firearms? There are hundreds of millions of firearms in this country, yet the annual number of accidental homicides are fewer than 1000, and the murders not committed by gang bangers are only two or three thousand per year, out of a population of 335,000,000 people (or so). Or the fact that even the liberal anti-gun researchers agree that guns are used successfully for defensive purposes 50-80,000 times per year (while others claim that the number is vastly higher). Guns are used lawfully in self defense, in target shooting and shooting sports, and in hunting tens of millions of times a year, which hardly makes us killers waiting on a whim to start a rampage.

              • I think I did respond to the second part, but there has been a lot going on. In short, If you don’t go where you need a gun to defend yourself, you don’t need a gun. I don’t fear the criminal, I fear the normal-appearing person who has a gun and can just snap in a crowded location. I fear the “good guy with a gun” who becomes the next mass shooter (how many mass shooters of late have been criminals, or “bad guys” before they shot up a public gathering?).

              • Man. This is the most absurd crap ever.

                In short, If you don’t go where you need a gun to defend yourself, you don’t need a gun.

                Complete nonsense. Criminals stay in their criminal zones? Tell that to those whom had a home intrusion, or the guy that was murdered getting gas at the station. Or all those people in those gun free zones that keep getting gunned down. Absolute total nonsense man.

                I don’t fear the criminal, I fear the normal-appearing person who has a gun and can just snap in a crowded location.

                Definitive proof you are a total hoplophobe with delusional mental problems. You fear the guy that might have a gun, but not the guy ready to smash your brains all over the pavement with a tire iron, or the lunatic with an IED looking for a drop off.

                I fear the “good guy with a gun” who becomes the next mass shooter (how many mass shooters of late have been criminals, or “bad guys” before they shot up a public gathering?).

                There is definitely a criminal element and a crazy element, and mass shooters tend to be the latter. And … For now… Their favorite tool of choice is the firearm. That said, should one “snap” near you, be it a tire iron or a firearm, and being that the vast majority of people have morals, wouldn’t you want to have a guy with a gun nearby?

              • I venture that the victims you identified were in dodgy neighborhoods. Perhaps not war-zone criminal neighborhoods, but places where it is best to give a wide berth.

                And yes, there will always be the random innocent victim in an upscale neighborhood, but if gun owners insist I ignore the statistically insignificant likelihood of being victim of an ND, then I insist you ignore the statistically insignificant likelihood of being a crime victim in “a nice neighborhood”.

        • @ 2Asux — No, not only did he not affirm your demonstrably false, asinine, and ass-backwards observations, but you still have yet to even substantiate them in any conceivable way. There are only those who believe in civil rights, and those who don’t. You don’t, and that includes everyone who ever says, “I support [inset amendment here], but…”

          • In a society composed of more than one person, no “right” is absolute. Wasn’t even a dream in the founders. They had very different ideas about how a federal government would function, and how individual states would function.

        • @ 2Asux — Except that’s demonstrably untrue and you damn well know that. You’re simply projecting your own instability onto the rest us, and that’s always where accusations of us being proto-murderers comes from, without exception. There’s no other possible explanation for it, given that you have zero proof of anybody else’s intent to even make that (non)argument in the first place. We have a right to self-preservation that automatically and completely supersedes any irrational fear of inanimate objects that is, whether you want to admit it or not, at the core of your drive for gun control.

          And yes, you are singling out guns and gun owners as is normally demonstrated by you and your ilk. You’re also actually talking about the destruction of rights.

          In a society, the smallest minority is the individual. The individual is with whom rights reside, and is thus in need of the most protection. You also clearly have no idea what was intended by the Founding Fathers, either. You have very different ideas about how a federal government and individual states would function than they did.

          • Once more: how many mass shooters of late were “bad guys”/criminals before they began shooting-up a public gathering? Most were “normal” people (non-crininals) who just went on a shooting spree.

        • @ 2Asux — Once more: a lot of them were. Some were even adjudicated as mentally deficient in a court of law or had pending felony charges against them, and the government dropped the ball. As is usual. Most weren’t “normal” people (READ: mentally unstable or religious radicals) and had meticulously planned their attacks for some time.

          • It remains that most of the shooters were not law breakers prior to beginning to shoot. It is those types I fear are all too common, just not active yet.

        • Because you could become a murderer in an instant, and we have a natural and civil right not to be randomly killed just to make your hobby more pleasant for you.

          Come on man. Losing my respect here.

          You, 2asux, could become a murderer in an instant and premediatively construct a large bomb and detonate it in a very public and crowded place. That said, I shouldn’t have the authority to strip you of your rights because of the capacity of what you might be capable of.

          • We have evidence of tens of millions of gun owners, and millions who conceal their guns when out and about. We have no evidence of someone wandering around with a bomb in their pocket. You are statistically going to shoot me accidentally, more than I am going to ignite a bomb on you.

        • @ 2Asux — It actually remains that most of the shooters were deeply disturbed individuals that our gun control laws could not catch beforehand. Anyway, you do still fear guns and, thus, gun owners simply for the fact that you support gun control — laws that only hinder peaceable people, not criminals or crazies. There is no way to overcome the mountains of evidence that gun control accomplishes literally nothing else.

          • Would not a “hoplophobe”, as you would put it, fear guns in the hands of police and military? Having been trained in military firearms of various calibres, I do not fear a dead metal object. I fear the stranger who may have that object hidden away, only to use it to prove a point in a fit. If every gun owner completed a recognized, standard training regimen in gun handling, my fear of the stranger with a gun would be quite reduced.

        • @ 2Asux — You clearly do fear dead metal objects. There is no rational explanation for want of gun control laws but simple (and often willful) ignorance, which is and has been on full display here from you. If every gun owner were required to complete a mandatory training course, you lot would make sure that nobody — not even yourselves — could pass it, because exactly none of you even care to be able to do so in the first place. No, you don’t, either. That is why, and rightly so, that such licensing schemes and fees to exercise any of our civil rights were declared Unconstitutional long ago.

          Nothing will ever assuage your completely irrational and demonstrably unfounded fears, period.

          • There have been a number of subject postings wherein I declared that standardized training and certification of proper gun handling need not be the result of a government construct. If the gun industry could establish one set of standards across the country, could manage a method whereby all their customers (past and present) were assured to be trained to that standard, I would agitate for dropping any action intended to confiscate or severely restrict private gun ownership. The only reason for a government mandated system is that gun owners will not regulate themselves. Knowing that training was popular, widespread, honored, sought after would pretty much remove fears that any gun carrying person one might encounter is irresponsible.

      • “The Democratic Party platform of 1960 summarizes the switch boldly and explicitly. It declares that a Democratic Administration “will reaffirm the economic bill of rights which Franklin Roosevelt wrote into our national conscience sixteen years ago.”

        Bear clearly in mind the meaning of the concept of “rights” when you read the list which the platform offers:

        “1. The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation.

        “2. The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.

        “3. The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living.

        “4. The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home and abroad.

        “5. The right of every family to a decent home.

        “6. The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.

        “7. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accidents and unemployment.

        “8. The right to a good education.”

        A single question added to each of the above eight clauses would make the issue clear: At whose expense?

        Jobs, food, clothing, recreation(!), homes, medical care, education, etc., do not grow in nature. These are man-made values — goods and services produced by men. Who is to provide them?

        If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

        Any alleged “right” of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right.

        No man can have a right to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as “the right to enslave.”

        A right does not include the material implementation of that right by other men; it includes only the freedom to earn that implementation by one’s own effort.

        Observe, in this context, the intellectual precision of the Founding Fathers: they spoke of the right to the pursuit of happiness — not of the right to happiness. It means that a man has the right to take the actions he deems necessary to achieve his happiness; it does not mean that others must make him happy.

        The right to life means that a man has the right to support his life by his own work (on any economic level, as high as his ability will carry him); it does not mean that others must provide him with the necessities of life.”

        –Ayn Rand, Mans Rights

        Now consider these thoughts against the context of the Obamacare legislation; this is exactly the erosion of our rights, subordinating them to the state, that Rand was discussing in looking at the Democrat party platform of 1960. The loss of our individual rights to the state as implemented by the Democrats in power but more generally by all socialists and statists from the elected representatives of both parties through all the people in appointed positions, bureaucrats and state employees from top to bottom who by and large are all socialists and care next to nothing about the constitution and the fundamental meaning of our society.

        Obamacare was one step. Gun rights are but another. Look back at how they fought for and won Obamacare and watch as they do the same to our second amendment. These men sure can fight when power for them is at their goal, they will never do such to anything that works to empower the individual in any way whatsoever.

        As these rights are taken away – and the rtkaba is just one of them – then we lose everything that made this country what it was, and we devolve back into just another totalitarian statist tyranny.

        It is not an exaggeration to say the boxcars are just another step or two away in the plans of this regime. The state will not provide for your safety and security. The state only cares about the state, all we need do is look at history to see this.

        Is it any wonder that history isn’t being taught in our schools in any meaningful way? That no one on the streets today understands the bill of rights or even the meaning of our independence day celebrations today?

        • To start, the list looks like Donald Trump’s talking points and political platform. You disagree with any of those principles? All of them?

          Next, “at whose expense”? If the agenda is fulfilled, each person would have the means to fund his or her own life, taking nothing from anyone. That list declares that people are deserving of respect and opportunity, that no individual or corporation has leave to exploit another human. Are these radical ideas?

          There is nothing in the list that supposes, endorses or recommends fulfilling individual rights by unjustly taking away the rights of another (unless one perceives that losing a job or an industry due to classic economics is unjustly subverting rights.

          While it is advantageous that so-called conservatives not understand that the list you provide should be their rallying cry for restoration of proper interaction between individuals, it is simultaneously puzzling that conservatives would see the list as a mandate for government to be the arbiter of all interaction.

          Fortunately, conservatives sometimes stumble across the truth, but pick themselves up and carry on as if nothing happened.

        • @ 2Asux — To start, that actually list looks like Bernie Sander’s talking points and political platform.

          Next, at everyone else’s unending and all-consuming expense. The agenda cannot be fulfilled by state coercion, which is the platform and policy of the DemoKKKrats and other regressive leftists — and the only means they have ever suggested or even accept. That list actually declares that people are somehow deserving of the fruit of someone else’s labor (even though they’re not). That is a pretty radical idea.

          Everything on that list supposes, endorses, and recommends depriving another of their rights, by the state. At gunpoint.

          While it is advantageous that so-called “liberals” clearly do not have the capacity to understand that the list above is and can be only a rallying cry for authoritarians and autocrats, it is simultaneously puzzling that so-called “liberals” wouldn’t see it as a mandate for government to be the arbiter of all interaction.

          Fortunately, liberals sometimes stumble across the truth, but pick themselves up and carry on as if nothing happened.

          • “That list actually declares that people are somehow deserving of the fruit of someone else’s labor (even though they’re not). ”

            I did not see government coercion or wealth redistribution listed. I did not view it from that perspective (I guess that is what results from me trying to see the world from the “conservative” point of view). If I shift position a bit, I can see how the overly fearful could impute a system of government control fulfilling the list.

            At the risk of alienating a strong supporting organization, one item could be used to just about put an end to all “union shop” employment laws.

            Could you agree that if we remove government intervention, the list is quite good?

        • @2A Sux:

          Without an intrusive government the list is neither good nor bad, it is meaningless since it is not possible.

          Take one element: “5. The right of every family to a decent home.”

          If he does not have a decent home, how is he to collect on his right to one? It must be provided to him…at someone else’s expense. It must be provided. Someone will have to be compelled to provide it. (More than likely, that will be spread out amongst thousands or even millions of people…but then, there will be thousands or millions of people without a decent home, too, so it works out the same either way.) If someone is compelled to pay for it, he’s having his wealth spent for him without his consent. For so-called “Right #5” to be secured, someone else must be robbed, by the government.

          You’ll note that that’s true of all the others, unless you very loosely read the first couple as giving someone the right to try to make a contract for employment, rather than being allowed to demand it even if his/her work is so slipshod no one wants to pay for it.

    • Yeah, those african americans never should have sat down at that lunch counter, either.

      • Those who sat at lunch counters did not protest by refusing to eat out. Those who sat at lunch counters did not claim they were law-abiding in their activity. The claim of gun owners is that they are the most law-abiding persons in the country. Yet, those self same people find no inconsistency in plotting and acting to break properly passed legislation. If you break the gun laws, you cannot be a law-abiding gun owner. Your justification is irrelevant.

        • @ 2Asux — The verifiable statistical fact that gun owners are the most law-abiding citizens in the country, you mean. And those same people rightly find no conundrums in disobeying improperly passed, and improperly applied, and just plain improper gun control legislation — which, in all actuality, is all of it. If we break said gun control laws, you can rest assured that we have valid reasons for doing so. Your assertions are irrelevant.

          • A so-called valid reason for breaking the law does not change the fact: law was broken. A person intent upon being a law-breaker cannot legitimately claim to be “most law-abiding”, unless you mean “law-abiding most of the time, for which I will determine when it is convenient to obey any given law depending on what I want at the moment.”

        • @ 2Asux — A so-called law still isn’t a law at all if said law runs contrary to our civil rights. A person intent on being law-abiding can still legitimately claim to be the “most law-abiding,” (which is still a statistical fact no matter how much mental gymnastics you choose to do) unless you mean “law-abiding most of the time, for which I will determine when it is convenient to obey so long as everyone else agrees with me else I seek to destroy them or have the state do it for me.”

    • Not complying with unconstitutional laws is not incompatible with being a “Good Guy.” I think the term “law abiding gun owner” is also long obsolete – “responsible gun owner” being a more accurate substitute, since it’s nearly impossible to know if you’re in full compliance with the 30,000 or so gun laws in the US.

    • Oh, yeah, I remember 2asux now. He’s that unemployed english dude trying to feel important.

    • Do you believe that anything passed into law automatically becomes good solely by virtue of being law?

      I’ll give you a hint: it doesn’t. I’m not dictating a generic to you, but pointing out objective fact.

      So you can see that there is no intrinsic contradicting in calling a group “good guys” in spite of not obeying the law. Laws are not intrinsically moral, so disobeying them does not necessarily disqualify one as a “good guy”.

      Not to mention the fact that even the so called “reasonable restrictions” are illegal. That’s what unconstitutional means. The constitution is the supreme law of the U.S., which means it is illegal for legislatures to pass laws that violate its terms. restricting ownership of arms is an infringement and therefore illegal.

      If you agree in principle that it is acceptable to force legal compliance upon those who refuse, then your stance is logically, and ironically, consistent with us and those who refuse to comply, since the law you would have forcibly applied is itself illegal, so logical consistency requires that particular principle lead to support of keeping the guns.

      You can only use that principle to arrive at your stance if you ignore half or more of the relevant facts, as you tend to do.

      As far as my own principal started in this comment? Well, the 2nd amendment is one of the most moral laws humanity has produced. artificially restricting the rights of individuals is never moral. Restricting ones power over others is seldom immoral.

      • Theory is fun to play with. Reality is more funner. The law (or laws) seem to separate us from mod rule. Law is neither moral or immoral, just the law. Let me try to (for once) be succinct: if a person is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, and that person uses on to protect his/her life, or the life of another, the violator should be subject to, and punished by the law. If you want to ignore and violate your favorite law, fine by me. I simply have no respect or sympathy for you when “the hammer falls”. Glad you saved a life; now go to jail.

        (I know; failed)

        • @ 2Asu — Theory is all that you have. In turn, reality must be no fun for you. The law doesn’t separate us from mob rule. If anything, the law is mob rule, only with a little pomp and circumstance to make people “feel” good about it. It’s actually our own personal moral and ethical codes that we learned growing up, and practice all throughout adulthood, the separate us from mob rule. So, let me clear this up for you: if a person is prohibited by law from possessing a gun, and that person uses one to protect their own life and/or the lives of others, the violator should not be punished. The law should actually be ignored and later repealed. If you want to see people convicted who could have only defended themselves and/or others by defying the law, that’s on you. That’s behavior more akin to tin pot dictatorships and banana “republics.” I rightly have zero respect or sympathy for you, period.

          • If you subscribe to the theory that the law should be ignored for the greater good, then you support a system of situational ethics (which has been a core belief of our side since the 60s), and situational application of the law. That puts you in the same line of reasoning of President Obama, who once declared, “We can’t let the law stand in the way of doing the right thing.”

            Welcome aboard.

        • @ 2Asux — You clearly subscribe to the theory that the law should be ignored or applied against the good of the individual, whenever possible, especially if it’s against the yet-undefined “greater good” which you lot have absolutely no grasp of to begin with. That puts me in the exact opposite line of reasoning as our imperial president.

          None of us are on board with you, nor should we be.

    • “If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.”

      Would you call Thomas Jefferson a bad guy?

      • Oh indeed, Jefferson and the lot were “bad guys” given they were violating the King’s law. They were subject to the most terrible of retribution if they had lost. They thought themselves superior to British law and rule, thought themselves “good guys” for their actions. History shows they escaped justice under British law. The founders knew they were law breakers, criminals, never denied it, never complained that it was unfair, unconstitutional (as in the rights of Englishmen) to be held as traitors to the Crown. Under British law, they were “bad guys with guns”. “Bad guys” who had been “good guys with guns”, until the moment they chose treason.

        • Nobody here is denying the fact that Jefferson and company were traitors to the crown. But, they were superior to British law and rule, and they were ultimately vindicated. This is all after trying literally every other legitimate avenue of redress available to them at the time. In the end, it was actually King George III and his minions that were the “bad guys with guns” after they had mistreated, sometimes brutally, their own kith and kin with their burdensome taxes and the Townsend Acts, and other intolerable and coercive things they foisted onto their subjects without the representative vote that they were due.

          Some student of history you are (not).

          • Parliament and the King were acting within the law of England; founders defied the law. Law breakers are “bad guys” in relation to the law broken. Being law-breakers, they became legal “bad guys with guns”. No matter how many alternatives the founders tried in an effort to reach accommodation, they broke the laws. Outcome does not eliminate the fact that the founders were operating illegally. If they had lost, their rebellion would have been written into history as brigands who deserved their fate as law-breakers and traitors. There would have been little sympathy for the notion that they were actually “good guys” standing for “the right thing”.

            Not sure what discussing violations of the law has to do with ” being a student of history. Question: regardless of reason and excuse, did the founders violate the existing laws of the Crown? Yes/No? When or why is irrelevant.

            • Parliament and the King were acting within the law of England; founders defied the law.

              No, not really. The British government attempted to abolish the Americans’ common law right of self-defense by taking all their gunpowder and guns. They tried to disarm Americans. The British conducted warrantless searches for arms and ammunition. Great Britain attempted to force unjust laws upon us by the strength of arms.

              Remember, it was the crown itself that had established the colonial governments. Even the British crown recognized the legitimacy of these local governments, and expected British subjects to do the same. It was these local governments that declared the war of independence because of the king’s and the London Parliament’s illegal actions.

              The London Parliament began imposing taxes and levies, began quartering soldiers in colonists’ homes, and committed other unlawful acts upon the 13 English provinces, each with its own parliament. Even in England, the king was not sovereign, Parliament was. And the colonists were in covenant with a king who ceased keeping that covenant, and who allowed them to be rendered slaves rather than free men.

              The London Parliament ordered the naval blockade of the Port of Boston and stopped all lawful commerce. This was an act of war (it still is today), and the colonists rightly understood it to be an act of war by the London Parliament against the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. They sought redress from the king but he took the position of the London Parliament and enforced it. And over time the offenses mounted, from the Boston Massacre to the passage of bills of attainder to the military occupation of American cities and the dismissal of American parliaments.

              King George dispatched 25,000 British troops to invade the Colonies, enter the homes of his own citizens to take their private possessions and goods, and imprison them without trials – all in violation of British Common Law, the English Bill of Rights, and the Magna Carta. Only when those governmental covenants had been broken by the crown and America had been directly attacked did the Americans respond in self-defense. This went on for years before we declared war.

        • I’d be perfectly content to be known as a bad guy with a gun if grouped together with the likes Thomas Jefferson, et al. What makes you think that would bother us people of the gun? Knock yourself out, 2Asux.

    • We really have to stop feeding the trolls, guys. They just get inflated and ever more stupid.

        • @ 2Asux — Oh, you mean the default state of affairs in any and all gun-grabber forums, wherein any and all dissenters are blocked and their comments deleted no matter how polite, contrite, and factually-accurate their reservations are without exception? (Something that you might have noticed TTAG doesn’t do.)

          Yes, your echo chambers must remain unsullied.

    • Democrats have been heard many times saying they agree with Chairman Maio that political power comes from the power of a gun.
      You might notice they are ok with guns as long as they are the only ones with them.
      It’s called self defense but they want to make self defense a crime.
      This new bill HR-8 passed by Congress the other day just about makes self defense a crime.
      You want to not be able to defend your family from gangsters busting down the door be my guest but keep you shit for brains ideas out of my house.

  5. Non compliance is great. Really. Until it isn’t.

    A giant sink hole under the Sacramento Capitol Building during the State of the State address…. Better.

    • Not advocating terrorism, but it should be remembered that much of the city of Sacramento, California, is below sea level and protected by dykes (no pun) and levees, as is New Orleans. Consult an ephemeris for high tide periods.

      (I did a LOT of research for a never finished novel in which California was one of the main antagonists.)

      Just sayin’.

      • Cliff,

        I’m actually working on a novel right now which I suspect a few regulars on this site might enjoy. You really should finish yours.

        Jay

        • If you finisy it and can’t publish it and make the money you should then please post it on Freenet and on hidden servers that requires TOR to access.

  6. Just how many standard capacity magazines are going to be turned in or just lost? Stand for freedom in California!!

  7. The banners have already won. There are just not enough advocates of freedom and natural rights to counter the statists and proles.

  9. As the gun rights supported say as they laugh at the shredding of other individual liberties….

    • ** As the gun-grabbers say, as they laugh at the shredding of other individual liberties….

      Fixed that for you. You’re welcome.

      • Again, class….Liberties are what the courts determine they are. Otherwise we do not have a nation of laws, but a nation of mobs.

        If you would see a nation of people who determine for themselves what the law is or should be, I direct your attention to NYC, Chicago, Detroit, East LA.

          • Yes, they were. What made their actions “crimes against humanity” ? The victors. The victors determined an entirely new and made-up class of crime simply to obliterate a culture. The Germans decided what was legal and what was not inside their borders and conquered territory (conquering was a natural and civil right of nations prior to 1945). It wasn’t until the Munich trials that the US even admitted there was a holocaust because the government did not want the anti-Jewish racism rampant in the US to put an end to a war to save the Jews. How moral was that?

            All I am saying is the law is the law. One must comply or face the consequences until an “offensive” law is changed or overturned. To put morality into this discussion, the civil rights activists put themselves out there for all to see and revere or hate. They did not protest race laws by silence and secrecy. They did not express their outrage and protest by refusing to ride buses.

            Refusing to comply with a law but not actively protesting a perceived injustice is not the definition of a moral position on a matter critical to society.

            However, please continue in your silence. It is most helpful.

        • @ 2Asux — Again, class, liberties are actually what We, The People determine they are. Then, we do not have a nation of laws, but of mobs.

          If you would like to see a nation of people who determine for themselves what the law is or should be, I direct your attention to any city run by leftist autocrat aristocracy.

        • @ 2Asux — Their actions alone made them cries against Humanity. Their actions, not those of the victors, were made to obliterate a culture. (Fun Fact: conquering territory was never a natural or civil right.) The U.S. government also admitted that there was a holocaust very soon after the first camps were liberated. Nobody else but Nazis and their sympathizers could have ever possibly denied or explained away the insurmountable evidence that quickly spread across the world.

          All we’re saying is that unjust laws are not laws at all. They’re not. One mustn’t comply or else be doomed to be buried under more unjust laws through silent obedience, which is essentially giving consent. Oh, and they did boycott buses in Montgomery, by the way. That’s how they got policies changed. We, too, put ourselves out there for all to see and revere or hate. In the media, and out in public. Not that you would know this, naturally, as neither paying attention nor doing even a moment’s honest research are things that you lot do.

          So, yes, refusing to comply with said law is to actively protest a perceived injustice – and is by definition a moral position on any matter critical to society.

          However, please continue in your vociferous ignorance. It is most helpful to us.

          • Conquering other territory was a natural and civil right of nations that had the power to impose its will on another; power made right. By what objective (non-cultural) test can one assert that the morals of one group of people are unacceptable? By what objective authority is annihilating another culture immoral or criminal? By what objective authority was it moral or immoral for British Bomber Command in WW2 to attack civilian population centers merely to drive up casualties in an effort to destroy the willingness of the German people to allow the Nazis to continue? By what objective authority was it moral for US 20th Bomber Command to firebomb Japanese cities (causing more deaths than both atomic bombs combined) with the intent to drive civilian casualties to levels unacceptable to the Japanese government?

            We pick and chose what we find moral, based on our own self-interests, and our own cultural histories. We establish moralities and laws to keep in check our perverse natures. If a culture decides there are to be no limits on personal actions, the only limit would be the eventual and predictable self-extinguishment. But that would objectively be neither moral, nor immoral. It would be moral or immoral to that culture, and dealt with accordingly.

            Law places external limits on my nature. Morals place internal limits on my nature. My culture, my choice.

        • @ 2Asux — Conquering other territory wasn’t a natural or civil right of nations, regardless of how much power they had. Might didn’t and still doesn’t make right. One can gather which moral codes are unacceptable by their effects, which must include an analysis of culture and development. It was seen then and is seen now as immoral to indiscriminately bomb non-military targets. (Fun Fact: The then-Japanese Emperor Hirohito had to pressure his generals to consider and accept a surrender.)

          We pick and chose what objectively works best. Ultimately, it’s not laws enforced by a feckless and incompetent state that keep us in check, but our own personal ethical and moral codes. If a culture decides there are to be no limits on personal actions, it ceases to be a culture at all. That could be found, and is, objectively immoral. How a society chooses to deal with that is simply their business.

          Laws don’t place any limits on your nature, the morals and ethics you learned growing up do that. Laws do not prevent or modify behavior, only punish after a crime has been committed.

          • Sorry folks. “Morality” is culture-dependent. The winners always place their concepts, conditions and condition over that of other cultures, and make judgments. No one can escape their cultural bias.

            In human history and interaction, there are no moral absolutes. Even the founders depended on a theological precept that there was/is a God, of some sort, and that God granted humans with rights (among other things). At that time, around the world, there were (and still are) cultures who would reject the God of the founders, and the related moral codes. Who is morally right? Prove that objectively (that is, without any reference to the supernatural, personal belief system or material outcomes).

            One cannot posit that because their condition brings health, wealth, contentment or achievement, therefore their moral code must be correct and superior to all or any others. Take for instance, culling the herd.

            One culture sees damaged/crippled/handicapped/special needs members to be worthy of protection, nurture, empathy and tolerance. Another sees such persons as a dangerous drain on the healthy members, preventing the culture from surviving, or from growing more resilient or prosperous. The second culture sees no value in intellectual games about how a culture is more respected because it allows the lessers to hamper the greaters. It is all truly relevant among the philosophies of man (If you want an amazing survey of the major philosophies, read CS Lewis “The Abolution of Man”).

        • You have it backwards. A nation of laws requires that its government be restricted by laws as well. Therefore in a nation of laws the courts cannot be the sole arbiters of what liberties the people have.

          No, to have a nation of laws requires that the liberties of the people be absolute, enshrined in a supreme law that absolutely restricts its’ government from violating those liberties. Sounds vaguely familiar, no?

          To allow the courts to decide what liberties the people have, firstly ignores the property role of the courts and legislatures. Giving that power to courts allows them to make laws instead of adjudication how any given law, as written, applies to a person’s action or a situation. There are things called branches of government.

          What you’ve advocated is not a nation of laws at all but a nightmarish free for all of power abuse.

          • “…a nation of laws requires that th of the people be absolute.”

            Yes ! Absolute liberties. My liberties are absolute, not subject to constraint, not even the constraint of not interfering with your liberties. If there are any constraints on my liberties, they are not absolute.

            I think I like this “absolute” business.

        • Don’t know how I missed it until now – must have been the obvious Britishisms and distractions about laws and such, but it is now, following 2Asux response to my comment directing him to the Holocaust photos, that I understand that he is purely and simply an anti-Semite and determined Fascist! In his mind whatever the government decides to do is the right thing to do, even if it is a blatant crime against humanity! Just as a basic rule of common sense and common law the fact that you individually, or as a society, or as a nation have the power to go to your neighbors, kill them and take their stuff, does not make those actions morally correct, EVER. And before it is said, yes, this applies to the way the government treated the American Indians. It was immoral and criminal behavior by our government.

          You cannot make an act moral or legal just because you have the power to pass a law saying so and to enforce that law by coercion and force up to and including death. Such a stance on any level is ludicrous.

          FASCISM: “We have decided what is best for you. If you know what is good for you then you will NOT oppose us.”

          And what are the almost universal first actions of fascism: make private ownership of weapons illegal, imprison or kill citizens who violate this rule, and build massive standing armies of police and soldiers to enforce your unpopular laws and steal land and resources from your neighbors.

          • Fact: “Crimes against humanity” did not exist until 1945. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Does identifying the fact make one moral or immoral? Does “saying” an unpleasant truth make the reporter good or evil? “Crimes against humanity” was the birthing ground for “hate crimes”. The idea that killing in large numbers was some how more horrible than killing in lesser, but large numbers. Does anyone find “crimes against humanity” in the futile, senseless, useless Battle of the Somme? Why not?

            BTW: Records kept by the Germans prove they exterminated millions of Communists, Czechs, Greeks, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, mentally and physically handicapped, Poles, resistance fighters, Russians, Serbs, Socialists, Spanish Republicans, trade unionists, Ukrainians, Yugoslavians, prisoners of war of many nations. Roughly 16 to 20 million non-Jewish victims. Is noting that fact also considered anti-Semitic?

        • Again, class….Liberties are what the courts determine they are.

          I’m going to get theoretical here. What if, say, the people on the court suddenly died (one way or another). What would those liberties be then? And if those on the court who died were then replaced, who is really determining what those liberties are?

          • “The courts” exist as an institution, populated by justices who come and go. Thus, whoever sits on the courts makes determinations of what the law/liberty is at any given point in time. The decisions, and the results, change, but the court remains the final arbiter….barring a revolution. If there is no final determination of rights in dispute, then disputes are interminable, leading to chaos. Everyone wants to be their own Supreme Court (and supreme being?), but society cannot function under that concept. The law of the jungle would prevail.

        • @ 2Asux — Sorry, folks, but morality is as universal as the laws of nature. The winners are actually the ones with the best ethics, and they develop the best concepts, conditions, and judgements. Reality has a bias against inferior people and inferior cultures.

          There are moral absolutes, especially in everyday Human interaction. Many of the Founders were ministers and Deists, and still they had the wherewithal to prevent the government from favoring one religion over another. The moral codes of the Founders, enshrined in the Constitution, are universally applicable. In order to prove them objectively right, one must analyze the material outcomes of various cultures holding different morals and ethics. Otherwise, it simply cannot be done. What you want to engage in is nothing more than illegitimate cultural relativism and sophistry, pure and simple. They’re not arguments and, therefore, you have no arguments whatsoever.

          One can posit that because their condition brings them wealth, health, contentment, and comfort that their moral code is superior to those of others. That’s how these things are measured. Whether you accept that premise or not is irrelevant and of no consequence.

          • You can’t have moral absolutes among people if the “objective” test is which God you believe in. If your God is rejected, those standards are irrelevant to those rejecting that God. “Objective” morality must be measured without dependence on an unprovable supreme being.

            BTW, many people who believe in the God of the founders are broke, damaged, marginalized, downtrodden, impoverished, subjugated, persecuted. So you have two “objective” standards of morality. Which is which? Wealth and success proves a superior morality? Or worldly defeat and powerlessness?

            What you believe “moral” has no superior station in the lives of others.

            As I noted earlier, “moral” society and “moral” people has been the subject of conflicting philosophies since time began, and remains unsettled among the great thinkers.

        • @ 2Asux — Except that, again, nobody here was even implying that that’s the objective test. Except you. Moral scruples are not necessarily exclusive to religion, mind you, and nobody here even remotely implied otherwise. Again, except you.

          By the way, many of the people who believe in the God of the Founders are broke, damaged, marginalized, downtrodden, impoverished, subjugated, and persecuted either through their own choices or someone else lacking any of the same morals that you and I might share did that to them. So, no, you actually still have only one objective standard of morality. Period.

          My moral codes are superior to those held by some others.

          As I have already dictated to you earlier, and several times already, there is a clear and definitive dividing line between superior and inferior moral and ethical codes, as well as cultures.

        • All I am saying is the law is the law

          Good, then. So we’re all in agreement that after America’s Founders kicked not-so-Great Britain’s ass and wrote the Constitution that all was good! And we’re also all in agreement that if gun-owning freedom-lovers in modern day America were to duplicate that performance by disposing of all the tyrants and abolishing all federal law except the main body of the Constitution, for example, that all would be good! After all, the law is the law!

          And there you have it, folks! Straight from the pen of 2Asux!!!

        • A nation of mob control is exactly what the Democrats and Liberal brain dead assholes want.
          They want us to be a Democracy which is majority rule AKA Mob Rule! Then they can turn us into the next Venezuela fast

          When we are no longer a Constitutional Republic we are done for.!

  10. There has already been released of two-three new bullet button items. The law is useless. We’ve already figured out a way around it. It won’t work for all guns but ARs are good to go. I can also throw a new Kydex grip on my AK and it’s not featureless and not subject to the new laws.

    We bought ourselves another 2-4 years.

    • This device is beyond stupid.
      Just build a new stock without a grip.
      In Vietnam, I quit using the predecessor of the AR-15 for reason I won’t go into. Too long story. I then used a weapon that was of Korean, war and WW-II era.
      Solved my problem, “long story” I still sleep with one in reach from my bed. Wife has on her side as well. Both have 15 round clips. I also have a good stock of 30 round clips on the head of the bed. Yes there is a round always in the pipe. What dammed good is a gun you have to load before you can use it!
      Same for hand guns. Mine I carry is one in the pipe and hammer down all the way with safety off. Yes it’s safe as I will never use a gun that is not inertial firing pin.
      If you think its unsafe then look it up and solve your ignorance.

    • Interesting word, that: “fight”. As used here it is equivalent to “It depends on what ‘is’ is”.

  12. Call me cynical, I don’t see 6,500 firearm purchases today in all of California being anything close to a large number considering the state has, what, 40 million people? That works out to 1 out of every 6,153 people in California purchased a firearm today.

    If this went on for 100 days straight, that might be something.

    By the way, how many background checks were called in on Black Friday (after Thanksgiving) last year? How does this number today compare to California’s number on the last Black Friday?

    • Hi, Cynical.

      It is a good suggestion, however. Perhaps there is some way that RF and Nick can incorporate a counter/graph in the upper right corner of the site (that is usually a big blank space) to keep track of the NICS checks in California between now and January 2017. THAT would be educational.

    • 185k background checks nationwide last Black Friday.
      Did some quick math, the background checks performed in this article were on average about 1/5 of those done last Black Friday. So yeah this is sort of a non-issue.

  13. It’s over, done, finished…the final machining of the legislative mold infringing on Californian Citizen’s Second Amendment rights is almost complete. Soon to mechanically stamp out citizens right to lawful self protection.

    When redrawn democratic districts, protecting representatives from recall, introduce anti gun bills, then ramed through legislative process, means by design, elected representatives are actively circumventing the Constitution and deliberately infringing 2A.

    The only legal answer is to leave CA. If you fought or voted for upholding the Constitution, these gun bills are a backhand to your service. If you have a business leave…you’ll see a 20% improvement to your bottom line and HR cost decrease by 80%.

    There is no vertical dirt or beach worth the continued infringement of your rights or liberties.

    • I’m old enough to see what the dumb ass idea of HR department has done to hiring competent employees.
      HR is one os the worst ideas ever instituted in business!

  14. What better way to give the middle finger to moonbeam and his minions.
    It’s also a fantastic way to celebrate Independance Day.

  15. Mass civil disobedience is, to some extent, already the order of the day here. As can be seen in The People’s Republiks of SCREW-YOU Jersey and ZOO YORK, the vast majority of gun owners will not comply with any of these laws. The refusal to comply with L.A.’s recent magazine ban, and the fact that literally no one — no one — turned them in during the grace period, should have been a clear enough signal of exactly how this will turn out.

    I’ll even go so far as to assume that many localities and their respective law enforcement will promptly tell San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, and if not aloud then indirectly, to fuck off by simply not enforcing these new edicts. Announcements to this effect have already been made in The People’s Republiks of ZOO YORK and DISCONNEKTED-cut.

    This is nothing more than symbolism. That’s all it ever was, and all it ever will be. They don’t care if it doesn’t work, and some will even come out and say that they know it doesn’t work. All that matters to them is that it satisfies, however temporarily, their incessant “need” to “do something” about a problem that they fundamentally — consciously and on purpose — misunderstand. At least until the next tragedy, when they can once again wave the bloody shirt, crawl on more dead bodies before they’re even cold, and throw their little tantrums when their initiatives eventually fail.

    Fuck ’em. The whole fucking lot of ’em. Give up nothing, and do not comply.

  16. I find it amusing that one of the most famous lines from a Lefty song is now properly appropriated by the other side.

    “Fuck you I won’t do what you tell me” -Rage Against the Machine “Killing in the Name of”.

    They’d probably be pretty pissed if that became some sort of anthem for the gun rights movement.

  17. Hopefully these gun deprivation laws wake independents from their slumber and make them realize the Democrats are tightening the screws on Americans. Hillary and the rest of the Corruption Party can and will pass gun deprivation laws with no respect whatever for our Constitution.

  18. Let’s see how brave and willing they are when the AGs people show up on their doorstep. Unfortunately the time to water the tree of liberty is not upon us I fear.

  19. OK… Someone still in California can perhaps educate me. I thought that a couple years back .,, 2013?… California started requiring registration of all long guns at point of sale with serial numbers sent to the CA DOJ, just like has been done for handguns for years.

    If true, won’t people buying their AR-15s now already have that purchase record be sent to the state DOJ?

    • I’m not entirely familiar with existing gun laws in California – I vacated the place 16 years ago – but if they are requiring in the new law that you must report lost or stolen guns then it would appear that it was not previously required.

      That would seem to indicate that Californians have another six months to “lose” their registered firearms before they can be prosecuted for not reporting that they were lost. After that point it would just be a matter of not being caught after you happen to find them again.

      As far as I know the new laws that require reporting lost or stolen firearms contain no provision of also reporting that you found them again after they were misplaced or that the thief had an attack of conscience and returned them to you.

      • If the thief returned them, it would be a transfer and require you to undergo a background check.

        • Good point, I hadn’t thought of that. But if you hadn’t reported them stolen (before the law goes into effect), who’s the wiser?

          Or you could just ask him to be a good fellow and leave them on the back porch where you can “find” them the next morning. Anybody asks you simply say it was all a mistake and you had obviously just misplaced them temporarily.

    • Since 2014 we’ve had to register all guns, previously it was just handguns. I’ve only bought 1 rifle and 1 shotgun since that law came into effect.

      • Thanks. Ok. I guess the new AR-15 registration is like double secret registration or something.

    • You are absolutely correct. I don’t get this “noncompliance” bullshit, since the guns being purchased now are registered with the DOJ at the time of purchase by owner and serial number. The only open question is whether they will have to be re-registered (for $19) on the special “assault weapons” list, and if so, people’d better comply, because “they know who you are.” The only reason for buying one now is that you won’t be able to buy one after the first of the year unless it is a “featureless” rifle like the Ares or the Ruger Mini 14/30. (This last demonstrates the idiocy of the law. If the purpose was to eliminate EBRs because they can be reloaded so quickly, then still legal and still “not assault weapons” rifles should have been banned as well. The real purpose here was to ban the EBR.) Another silly aspect of the law is that although it bans transfers of “assault weapons”, the only part that is a firearm is the receiver–and a stripped receiver at that. Everything else can be legally sold without a background check. And if someone should die in possession of an “AW.” the heirs should strip that puppy down and turn in only the receiver (or sell it out of state).

      • You can buy for less than $500.00 a small dedicated milling machine to make the AR Receivers from a block of metal.
        So buy one and turn in you receiver with the serial number and make a few without numbers.

    • The only record is the fact you bought a long gun. The paperwork says nothing about a bullet button equipped AR.

      • As of 1/1/13, manufacturer, serial number, model and caliber of all long guns are reported to and recorded by the DOJ. So all these new rifles being purchased will be registered in detail. You are correct as to long guns purchased prior to that date.

  21. 4000 NICS checks in a day isn’t unusual for California. In fact, it’s a fair bit below recent averages.

    There were 220,000 checks in California this January, almost 215,000 in February. That works out to nearly 7100 per day in January and over 7400 in February. Heck, the lowest figures for all of 2015 and 2016 (so far) are June 2015, with an average of 3700 checks.

    Even if those checks in Jan and Feb only resulted in one gun sale each, it’s still more than the 6500 guns reportedly sold today.

    Doesn’t seem like there’s really a story here. Come back when the daily totals are higher than average, and maybe then it’ll be BREAKING NEWS!!!1!!11!!!

    • I think the salient part of the story is that there is a higher number of AR-15s being sold than normal.

    • A majority, even a majority of the minority, is accomplished through action. A majority opinion means nothing. A majority of those voting means everything.

      Winning.

      • @ 2Asux — Thankfully, national majority votes (and even most state majority votes for that matter) keeps gun control advocates from winning. Because they’re wrong.

        • The pro-gun elements in the nation do not win through a majority of individual voters. They win through a a powerful minority; gun lobbyists who can prevent gun control measures from being taken up by state and national legislatures. When that doesn’t work, the lobbies watter-down the legislation (which gives our side the opportunity to incrementally “move the ball”, as you say). BTW, do you have any idea how your Grand Canyon was produced?

        • @ 2Asux — The pro-civil rights elements in this country (which doesn’t include you gun-grabbers) do win through a majority of individual voters. They win through a majority of more politically active voters than the gun-grabbing minority, which can only win through a powerful gun control lobby packed with multi-billionaire plutocrats. Who then regularly out-spend, often times by orders of magnitude, the pro-civil rights majority and still lose more often than they win.

          Even on the off-chance they do somehow by some miracle win, their diktats are rightly ignored and go largely unenforced throughout much of their respective states.

          • It’s politics, man. Grow-up. Doesn’t matter how superior the honor of the loser. Doesn’t matter how superior the the moral code. Politics is about winning. Do that and then you can insert whatever honor or moral code you prefer. Your Confederacy died on a high moral principle (for them) because they thought their belief could defeat a determined and well-equipped army. No matter whether you agree or disagree with the moral code of the Confederacy, or their belief that their version of “right” was superior, they lost; they lacked the power to perpetuate their principle. Ask them if winning isn’t everything?

            It’s politics. It’s how the game is played. I don’t condone or support illegal actions to win, but otherwise….by any means necessary.

        • @ 2Asux — Another winner who actually passed history class, you mean, unlike you.

          A whole, big box of Cubans is in order.

      • Correct
        The left wingers came out and voted, as evidenced by our current administration.
        When the misery gets bad enough for the conservatives, maybe we can get a non-corrupt government back.
        If you could “mandate” that every legal US citizen vote, I believe we could get back to the early/mid 1980’s.
        Not perfect by any means, but no where near where we are now.

        Very interested to see what the outcome of the FBI/HIllary investigation (interview) will yield.

        • Very interested to see what the outcome of the FBI/HIllary investigation (interview) will yield.

          It will yield nothing. After she is elected, the FBI will be underneath her position and she’ll just tell them to STFU.

        • Back in the eighties? No thank you. We then were saying back in the XXX.
          We need a new bio weapon that seeks out liberal’s and Muslim,s.

  23. Non compliance is the way to go. Funny how a bunch of people I know in New York never cared to own or build Ar-15s, AK-47s, or buy 100 round drum mags. But then this thing called the Safe Act passed and the demand for this now ‘illegal weaponry’ went through the roof. Every single firearm owner I know in New York is in violation if the Safe Act.

    Its like everyone just said enough is enough and threw abiding to firearm laws out the window. People starting building ARs, buying 10/30 round mag in bulk and modifying then back to original 30 rounds, going out of state to acquire extended capacity magazines or magazine part kits, heck one guy I know has an NFA weapon he modified himself. When I asked him about if he cares about owning a federally regulated weapon he flat out said he doesn’t care.

    If a liberal state like NY is like this, I can only imagine what goes on in other largely Democrat controlled states.

  24. Non-compliance is not enough. As the Prohibition demonstrated, open defiance, contempt of the law itself, and the unhesitating use of force against the jackbooted government thug to defend one’s rights is necessary to repeal unjust laws.

    • Yes, well, there is that. But only a faint memory, documented as a legend of what once was.

      • We all know how Prohibition ended. Gun control will be similar, with a helluva lot more statist blood spilled.

      • Hey Redcoat, I see you have made a lot of “intelligent” observations about how gun control will work over here in the States. It is apparent that you have never been to the American deep south, or states like Arizona, Texas, Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, or anywhere in the Midwest. Why don’t you take a poll of what members of the U.S. armed forces think of the 2nd amendment. You would be suprised at how Serriously many of them take their oath to defend the constitution. I have a lot of service member friends. In your laughable scenarios of some future U.S. civil war, you seem to think that the entirety of the armed forces and law enforcement would turn their M-4’s on their fellow family, neighbors, and friends. You are completly delusional. Gun bans and confiscations are completely unrealistic and impossible at this point in time. And I’m not convinced that most vets and current armed forces members would have the back of a totalitarian, gun – grabbing government. 300,000,000+ guns in this country. They arnt going away pal. Period. End of story.

        • “You would be suprised at how Serriously many of them take their oath to defend the constitution.”

          Defend a constitution as it is explained to them. What does defending the constitution actually mean? Not much. If it were otherwise, how many would have remained in the military as the constitution was regulated over the ages? Defend what constitution?

          There are no Miranda rights identified in the constitution. Miranda, like so much of your law, is “derived” from the constitution. Does the military resign any time there is a law passed or upheld that modifies, changes, or regulates any sentence or word in the constitution? Why have we never seen the military down tools when they thought a law was unconstitutional? Why have we never seen a revolt of the forces when they thought a law was unconstitutional?

          You are depending on a fair weather patriots if you think the military will refuse the order to control the civilian population whenever told. Your revered military tolerates so many of what you would call unconstitutional acts, that looking to them to turn on the civilian leadership is to wander fully into the field of delusion. The “infringing” on the second amendment is no more important to the military than “infringing” on any of the other amendments or clauses.

          Surely you jest when you posit that the military, on the whole, are constitutional scholars capable of making a rational decision about whether the constitution is being subverted by the national government. No, you are locked into the idea that because you do not like regulations on your right to have a gun, that is the only “constitutional violation” that matters to the military. Meaning all the other provisions of the constitution are insignificant, not worth defending.

          You will be shocked into inaction when you learn just how many of your military will carry out orders from their superiors. Like soldiers everywhere. (The idea that soldiers can be held responsible for carrying out orders later deemed illegal did not exist before Nürnberg.)

        • Defend the Constitution as they know it is rightly defined, which is certainly quite far away from how you want it interpreted. Defending the Constitution means far and away much, much more than you will ever realize it does, to those people.

          You are depending on fair weather jackboots if you think the military will long follow orders to brutalize the population in any manner that you’ve alluded to. Looking to them to cooperate with civilian leadership is to wonder fully into the field of delusion.

          We’ve already pointed out that you jest when you posit anything at all, especially being that our military is actually better-educated than the general populous – having a higher concentration of Bachelor’s, Master’s, Doctorates, and post-Doctorates. No, you are locked into the idea that because you like gun control laws, despite having no rational or empirical basis to do so, that the military will go along with your Orwellian pipe dreams.

          You should have already been shocked into complete silence when you continually learn just how willfully pig ignorant you really are. Like gun-grabbers everywhere. (Fun Fact: The idea that soldiers can be hold responsible for wrong-doing existed long before Nürnberg.)

          • I don’t need no rational, nor empirical basis for “gun control”; I just need to win at the ballot box, and in court. We are not in a contest of “right” and “wrong”; it is a contest about acquiring power and using it. I am amazed how that simple idea escapes so many “conservatives” and gun owners. But it is good for our side,

        • @ 2Asux — You do need a rational and empirical bases for supporting gun control; that’s how you win at the ballot box in the first place. We are in a contest of “right” and “wrong” whether you’ll admit it or not, that is ultimately what will decide it, and that is why you are losing and shall continue to lose. I am not at all surprised at how that simple fact escapes so many “liberals” and gun-grabbers. But, it’s good for our side.

    • There is one major difference between Prohibition (of alcohol) and gun control. The 18th Amendment stated:

      “Section 1. After one year from ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States…is hereby prohibited.”

      It was not illegal to drink or even possess liquor or beer.

      The gun control laws are intended to close that “loophole”. As of now it is perfectly legal to manufacture all of the things they are trying to ban, but illegal for an individual to possess or use them.

    • You got it sir.
      As the Democrats are famous for saying, “we agree with Chairman Mao that political power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  25. I hate to say it, but 2Asux has a valid point: closet commandos do not change laws or policy.
    There were 50 (FIFTY) people protesting in Sacramento today. There are an estimated 10 million gun owners in CA.
    As the CRPA Legislative Liaison pointed out, if they all got up and voted pro-gun, these laws would not have been instated.

    • For your edification I strongly recommend the movie “The Unbearable Lightness of Being”.

      In this movie, when the Russian tanks roll into Prague a journalist photographs the protest by the Czechs against the invasion. She is arrested and her camera confiscated after which she is shocked to discover that her pictures were used to identify the protesters and have them arrested and sent to gulags. This is what fascists do.

      At some point public protest is important, but the risk of being identified as a dissident and being placed on some secret government enemies list must always be kept in mind. What are the chances that photos or video of those 50 protesters could at some point be used as probable cause to obtain a search warrant (assuming they still give a damn about the 4th Amendment) to search their homes for proscribed weapons or accessories?

      Given the political climate in California that scenario is not so far-fetched.

      • You are right but don’t forget it goes farther than that. MUCH FARTHER!
        They will automatically include family, neighbors and friends they can identify as well.

    • Agree as well. Gun owners must “do the heavy lift” I can relay my experience with local government closing a street. Politicians require one thing to get something done…political cover. How many voters will impose their will on my office to get what they want.

      The vote is the legal answer to the infringement.

    • Your arguments suggest the fight is lost and unwinnable.

      In a fight you have to be willing to take hits and accept risks. In a fight against a superior force or repressive regime, there are always sacrifices and “martyrs”. Don’t come back at me with “you go first”. I’m making a point. That is all.
      These bills were rushed through without process, in utter disregard of protest and opposition.

      Interestingly, Brown vetoed a very similar bill last year. Whether it’s because it would have included semiauto rimfire rifles or because Newsom wasn’t trying to pad his resume in preparation for running for office is up for speculation and endless debate.

      Being in pro-2A activism in CA, I can tell you that many CA gun owners simply checked out. There were stories I heard of people manning booths at GUN EVENTS and trying to get people activated and involved and fighting these bills. A lot of GUN OWNERS shrugged it off. They did not want to be involved. That may be indicative of a defeatist attitude or simply a foreshadowing of the mass scale non-compliance.

      The fact is that there were people who did not comply with the original Roberti-Roos act, and then there were people who either took out their bullet buttons form the guns they bought in a store and replaced them with proper mag releases or built guns with standard mag releases.

      Irish democracy.

      • Don’t forget you can buy for less then $500.00 a small box that is a dedicated CAD milling machine that makes AR-15 receivers.

  26. 2Asux “And just which “laws” would the legislators be guilty, the breaking of?”
    No gun owner I know is calling for the murder of a legislator.

    To answer there are many laws created and broken to advance restricting citizens right to lawfully protect themselves. CA legislators take no responsibility in disarming citizens. No responsibility is preventing mass murder. If the state cannot prevent rape robbery or murder and denies citizen the means to lawfully self defend then why are they imposing a value of death on its citizens.

    First. is the right for every US citizen to keep and bear arms.

    Second. is every citizen has a right to lawful self protection. Arms are the best most cost effective means to accomplish this right.

    Third. When a legislative body convenes to create laws for the sole purpose to infringe on citizens 2A that is unlawful.

    Fourth. When districts are redrawn to capitalize vote blocks to favor a particular party remaining in power…that is not representative democracy.

    Fifth. CA approve gun list was designed not got safety but limiting the supply of handguns, thus driving up the cost of armaments. In one year the list went from 3000 to 2000 due to manufactures non participation in a state micro stamping scheme that was proven not to work. Again more infringement.

    CA legislators are purposely infringing on constitutionally protect, natural rights of 9 million lawful gun owners.

    • “First. is the right for every US citizen to keep and bear arms.”

      Except machine guns (requires government approval; means it is a privilege), motars, tanks, artillery guns, aircraft. Even all the gun owners believe those are reasonable restrictions. Gotcha. Once you concede one restriction, the rest are simply a matter of opinion, not law or universal rights. You gave up the inch and the foot, rather difficult to claim that there are no other restrictions that are constitutionally permitted,

      • Err…no, we DON’T all believe those are “reasonable restrictions”. No such things exist on an inalienable natural right. Stop putting words into my mouth.

        • One might take you for an absolutist on 2A (likely not so much on the other amendments). Here’s the test: No government has the right or authority to infringe on the people’s RTKBA, correct? Then how, as an absolutist, does one agree to prohibit prisoners from having weapons of whatever kind they can manage? If a right is absolute, it is absolute. If it is absolute, except for (pick your favorite carve-out), a right is not absolute. Exceptions are merely majority opinion on what constitutes a reasonable restriction.

        • @ 2Asux — One might take you for an absolutist on statism (and thus likely not for any of the Bill of Rights). Here’s the real test: prisoners lose some rights as consequence of causing articulable harm to other people. Violating a malum in se statute is not a qualifier. This is only after an individual has been proven to be a danger to society, and is punished accordingly. Your little Reductio Ad-Absurdum fallacy doesn’t hold water. Again, there are no “reasonable restrictions” when it comes to gun control as the faux liberal regressives have defined them.

          • “Here’s the real test: prisoners lose some rights as consequence of causing articulable harm to other people.”

            Do you have a citation for constitutional authority for that? Seems to be an exception to the second amendment that would have been called-out in the second amendment. I just do not remember such provision. It might make sense, might be reasonable, it might be common sense. Just like many other restrictions make sense and are reasonable.

        • @ 2Asux — Do you have any citation for Constitutional authority that says rights are not absolute? Why, no, of course you don’t. You really don’t have any citations to back up anything you’ve said anywhere else thus far, either. Not that anyone could rightly expect that of you, anyway. Beyond Common Law, there are no reasonable restrictions, which is something that apparently needs to be constantly repeated to you.

          • If rights are absolute, there can be no, none, not any limits on exercising them. My rights then cannot be restricted, no matter who is hurt. Once you place any limit at all on the exercise of individual rights, there can be no absolutes. If my right to a gun is absolute, there can be no exception just because I am incarcerated. If my right to a gun is absolute, I cannot be limited or punished for using that gun to accumulate any item I wish, and remove any obstacle I wish. Once you begin to place limits on absolutes, then those rights become absolute so long as you approve of their use. It is a circle, my friend. “Absolute” is a clearly defined concept. If the founders had conceived of rights granted by the Creator to be absolute, they would have written so, either in the constitution, or the letters and publications of the times.

        • 2Asux,

          A “society” or a “state” is a group of people who cooperate at a minimum level for mutual benefit/enjoyment and members are necessarily “signatories” of the “social contract”. The terms of the social contract are simple:
          (1) We are free to do whatever we want as long as we don’t directly harm other participants.
          (2) We are free to cooperate and persuade each other.
          (3) We are all equals.
          (4) We are NOT free to coerce or attack participants.
          (5) Anyone who coerces or attacks participants has violated the social contract.
          (6) Participants are NOT obligated to respect the rights of violators.
          (7) Justice demands that participants punish and/or banish violators.

          Thus, a criminal who attacks a participant in the social contract has violated the the social contract. After that, society no longer has any obligation to recognize the violator’s rights. That is why it is totally okay to imprison a violator and prevent the violator from bearing arms while imprisoned. The corollary: if you have not attacked nor harmed anyone, then your right to bear arms should be absolute.

          The real problem that we get into is where governments define all sorts of fiat laws that do not reflect direct harm to anyone. Governments that prosecute people for violating such decrees are operating outside of the social contract. Their operation is no longer based on mutual respect, benefit, and cooperation with society but rather force. That is a topic for a different discussion.

          • Governments that prosecute people for violating such decrees are operating outside of the social contract.

            This is exactly correct. Governments that write and enforce unconstitutional laws and laws that violate unalienable rights are operating outside permissible limits. That is why we broke away from England, the king was violating law at will. I quoted the beginning of the Declaration of Independence here, but 2Asux wasn’t smart enough to see the correlation and kept saying that no one was answering his question.

            • Because my question had nothing to do with the Declaration. Had to do with a name change for “Guy guys with a gun”.

          • Hello !

            Good to “see” you again; it’s been awhile.

            Yes, a good conversation for elsewhere.

        • @ 2Asux — Engaging in reletavist sophistry again, I see. Rights are absolute, even if they have limits — limits which are, in fact, found naturally at the boundaries of another’s person and property. So, yes, there can be absolutes with these parameters in place. The right to keep and bear arms still is absolute, even if you’re not allowed to exercise that right while incarcerated, and even if you’re punished for using that gun to commit a crime. Yes, it is a circle, but only you are desperately trying to follow it with your fundamentally broken “logic” and practically begging others to follow you down the rabbit hole. “Absolute” is a clearly defined concept — a definition that you stretch into blatantly obvious insanity to make it fit your fallacy-ridden (non)arguments. The Founders did conceive of absolute natural rights, and they did write the Constitution, in their correspondence about it, and in the publications of the time to make that abundantly clear.

          • Nope. Absolute has a distinct definition. It brooks no limit, of any kind. Any limit means a thing is not absolute. You might like the idea of “absolute, except….”, but any “except” is a limit on a self-evident limitless concept.

            ABSOLUTE: not qualified or diminished in any way; total.
            synonyms: complete, total, utter, out-and-out, outright, entire, perfect, pure, decided; thorough, thoroughgoing, undivided, unqualified, unadulterated, unalloyed, unmodified, unreserved, downright, undiluted, consummate, unmitigated,

        • Yep. You are in fact deliberately misapplying the word and warping its definition in order to make it fit your demonstrably illogical (non)arguments.

      • @ 2Asux — No, not all gun owners believe that those are reasonable restrictions, because they’re actually not. Not even the majority, for that matter. There is no proof whatsoever — empirical or otherwise — that they are, either. No argument could ever be articulated to that effect. There are no reasonable restrictions on anything where no one is being hurt by what you’re doing, period. So, no, the Second Amendment expressly includes machine guns, and every other implement of the soldier, regardless of what any of our meat puppet legislatures or activist kangaroo courts say.

      • “Except machine guns (requires government approval; means it is a privilege), mortars, tanks, artillery guns, aircraft. Even all the gun owners believe those are reasonable restrictions.”

        Except for machine guns, which are unconstitutionally restricted by the NFA, not banned outright, U.S. citizens are not prohibited from owning mortars, tanks, artillery or military aircraft, although placing working weapons on tanks and aircraft may also be unconstitutionally prohibited.

        And we still keep getting away from the fact of the matter each and every one of these items, to the degree the government restricts or denies possession by lawful citizens, is a prima facie violation of the Second Amendment, no matter what SCOTUS or even Justice Scalia may opine.

        The Supreme Court is NOT the final arbiter of the Constitution. Their rulings are opinions only, often by a bare majority of the nine human and fallible and often politically motivated men and woman on that court. Nothing in the Constitution has set SCOTUS up as the absolute final say on anything, they are each and every one still subject to impeachment by Congress and no ruling by the Supreme Court becomes sacrosanct. Stare decisis is a way to avoid taking responsibility, not a rule that the decision may never be reviewed or reversed. Should a Justice be impeached and a replacement seated it would seem logical (hah!) that the court review each decision in which that Justice played a deciding role.

      • OK, 2Asux, you’ve spent a lot of time (and beer, I’ll wager) baiting gun owners and painting them as criminals for refusing to surrender possessions they have had since before these California “laws” were proposed.

        Now tell US, what would happen if YOUR government retroactively decided that your Liza Minelli CD and video collection was about to be illegal. What WOULD you do?

        • As a citizen, I would obey the law until the law was overturned by repeal or modification. To presume to have authority to act as I please, whenever I please, without consequence, is to grant such to everyone else, wherein lies utter chaos.

          I have an individual vote on whatever matters appear before the populace, electing representatives to local and national governments. If my preferences are not enacted into law, I try again. I am not so deluded as to think, “One day they’ll go to far. Then we kill them all”.

        • @ 2Asux — TRANSLATION: “I would obey the nonsensical law that can’t even be widely enforced waiting for a repeal that will likely never come, and simply roll over and take it.” No one is even assuming that they can act as, when, and where they please without consequence. That you’re knowingly, erroneously projecting that nonsense onto us simply tells us that that’s what you think.

          The democratic process is and was little more than a running joke. Again, nobody but you is making any assumptions about wanting to kill people if your preferences aren’t carried through, either. Your penchant for psychological projection is only par for the course for gun control advocates, and is boringly predictable.

          • I will ask you again: how many of the recent mass shooters were criminals, gang members, or “bad guys with a gun” immediately before they began shooting? How many were “good guys with a gun” until the moment they opened fire. The answers are not projection.

            Yes, the name of the game of democratic process is the willingness of the people to honor and respect the results. Yes, if I see that the political situation has become intolerable, and there is no hope of change then I will move to a locale more suitable. I am not morally bound to overthrow even the most brutal tyranny.

        • “To presume to have authority to act as I please, whenever I please, without consequence, is to grant such to everyone else, wherein lies utter chaos.”

          This is the single sentence that proves you know nothing of the fundamental, objectively moral foundation of the US Constitution, its Bill of Rights and the core of US culture in general.

          As Excedrine has tried to explain to you, the premise of all US formal ‘liberty’ lies in the concepts of common law and victimization. That you refuse to see his point explains a lot. That you render malum prohibitum laws with the same moral authority as malum in se laws speaks volumes regarding fundamental lack of understanding about the essence of liberty.

          “To presume to have authority to act” is very telling. What you don’t understand is that you do have the authority to act … in any way, at any time. This is the basis of natural right vice rights granted by governing “authority.”

          Robert Heinlein summarized this concept as “Rational Anarchy,” which is very different from actual anarchy so don’t go getting all twisted up over Heinlein’s use of ‘anarchy’ here; it was just a term he coined to illustrate the point that personal authority does not arise from government.

          This concept is actually codified in the US form of government. “We the People” and “Government BY the People” means we do have the authority…

          In other words, here in the US, we are not “ruled” by our betters. We are the rulers. We, all of us (regardless of income, social status, and now race and sex) ARE the betters. Many of our countrymen have forgotten this and slipped into seeking comfort with Statist Authoritarianism, but “We the People” is the core of what makes the US system (as codified) objectively ‘better’ and more moral than any other government yet devised.

          It is the essence of individual sovereignty as “ruler” and yes, we DO have the authority to act in any way we please…up to infringing on actual rights of others. That is, you have no “right to feel safe” from something that has not happened yet (such as an irrational fear that I might someday turn criminal and hurt you), but as soon as I cross the line and commit a crime with an actual victim, my ‘authority’ shifts to the State in the form of Probable Cause for Arrest and Due Process for elimination of my sovereignty as punishment.

          Heinlein’s not the only person to write about this. The Founding Fathers of the US gave this a lot of attention, and other fictional writers have explored it since then. It’s a huge concept so not really surprising it is beyond the understanding of some.

          Every single word you have typed in this comment section belies that you simply do not understand this simple concept of individuality as the fundamental unit of government in the United States. Every word has belied a fundamental Statist worldview…and the above quote from your comment proves it in one succinct statement.

          How dare we presume to have authority to act as we please? Because we are sovereign human beings with unalienable, natural rights to act as such. We are free men capable and willing to make our own choices in this one life we have to live. Moral laws we choose to follow; immoral edicts, as has been told to you many times on this page, are not even laws in our system. Who decides that? We do.

          I’m guessing you will never understand this.

          • “This is the single sentence that proves you know nothing of the fundamental, objectively moral foundation of the US Constitution…”

            Objective moral foundation? Really? Based on what objective standard? Objective meaning elimination of any bias resulting from pleasant outcomes. Objective morality cannot be dependent upon results. Your morality is objective because it fits your world view, thus proving your morality objective. Because you like the outcomes of one manner of morality doesn’t mean any and all others are wrong or irrelevant.

            “Morality” has been done and done again throughout human history, by greater minds than I pretend to have in my most irrational hallucinations. The matter is yet unsettled.

        • @ 2Asux — I will answer you yet again: most of them, in fact, were bad people immediately before they began shooting. Had you actually read any of the analyses after the fact, you’d know this. Most of them weren’t good people until the moment they opened fire. Had you actually read any of the analyses after the fact, you’d know this, too. The answer, then, must be projection — of your inner-most thoughts, feelings, and desires onto everyone that disagrees with you.

          Natural rights are not subject to the democratic process nor to “arguments” grounded in social utility. You very likely won’t even have the option of simply pulling up stakes and leaving if the political situation becomes that unfavorable to you, and there’s not even the slightest guarantee that any place you move to will wind up being any better, either. If you cannot leave, then you are bound to overthrow even the most brutal tyranny simply by living there. Otherwise, you simply continue being part of the problem, making you culpable.

          • If I am trapped in an oppressive, tyrannical sphere, I am not obligated to resist, fight or overthrow. I can choose to trade one more moment of slavery for one more moment of life, until the trade is no longer sustainable. My choice as a sovereign individual; my natural and civil right, as it were.

        • @ 2Asux — If you choose not to resist, fight, or overthrow while having the capacity to do so in some form or fashion, you choose to be part of the problem. It’s really that simple. If you choose slavery, you are but a slave.

          • “If you choose slavery, you are but a slave.”

            Yes, and it is entirely my choice. Isn’t it?

        • Ah, I see you took my bait. I threw in the word “objective” to see if “objective morality” would distract you from the overall point I was making, and it did. In spades.

          You completely ignored the actual point I made.

          As a Statist, you simply do not understand the concept that here in the US, we are the government. Indeed, in the whole world that is true as “consent of the governed” is a fundamental truth; else there would never be, could never be any uprising, rebellion or coup d’etat.

          But you don’t understand this.

          And further, just to clarify (for those playing at home), what I meant by “objectively moral” is in this very sense…that any government built on Natural Rights is objectively more “moral” than any government built on the “elitism of the governing class.”

          The latter demands “oppression” to remain in power. If someone can look at a fundamentally oppressive form of government and one based on individual liberty and NOT see a moral distinction, there simply is no common perception of right and wrong with which to have a discussion.

          2ASux, dear readers, is of a postmodernist worldview that worships moral relativism. “Right” and “wrong” are what he says it is…today. The problem with this philosophy is that it is applied in concert with collectivism…HE thinks HE gets to decide what is right and wrong for others. For example, see the very language he uses in regard to private ownership, and carrying, of guns.

          Any anti-gunner that thinks it is “wrong” for individuals to “own” guns has no objective basis to impose that belief on others as “better.” This would be no different than an imposition on which church one HAS to attend. The only way this worldview can function in a society is via force and oppression.

          Systemic moral relativism is, therefore, the very opposite of individual liberty. What is deemed “moral” has to be imposed, just as the anti’s seek to have force used to remove private property from free men.

          To further the argument that individual liberty is “objectively” more moral, that is, more “good,” than oppressive collectivist systems lies in the belief of “equality.” Are all persons of equal value? Do all persons have equal potential value?

          It is fundamentally hypocritical to make any claims of equality while at the same time demanding oppressive and forceful adherence to an externally defined, relative morality. The only way any claim of equally can even be entertained as intellectually honest is to acknowledge the only “true” ruler in any person’s life is him or herself.

          And again, the thing that the 2ASux’s of the world fail to understand is that this is always true no matter what form of government, what social contracts or what relative rules are in place. This is what makes “individual liberty” objectively more moral…that it is true regardless of what rules ‘man’ places above it.

          No matter what rules, laws or ‘relative morality’ you try to impose on other human beings, ultimately, the decision to follow them is individual. Again, I reference Heinlein’s Rational Anarchy as a convenient, succinct description of the concept.

          In other words, it is objectively true that individual sovereignty is the true natural state of man; any government has to be either agreed upon or imposed.

          Each man chooses to follow the laws and rules imposed on him. Every single living person chooses their life’s path. No government or social contract changes that. None.

          2ASux will never understand this, because in his ‘culture,’ he has not been “allowed” to see it. The oppressors have “programmed” him to believe the natural state of some people is to be “Ruled” by other, better people.

          In the US, this concept is part of our cultural identity.

    • The Second Amendment was never intended to promote the shooting of politicians with whom you disagreed. Its intent was to put the fear in the minds of all politicians that The People had the ability to shoot politicians with whom they disagreed.

        • Bullsqueeze.

          The only way to know if a threat is ’empty’ or not is to challenge it.

          Many street thugs, for example, threaten “give me your wallet or I’ll kill you.”

          In the cases of such encounters NOT ending up with a dead victim, we have no way to know if threat was ’empty’ or a bluff or not as the threatener was not challenged. The other side “folded” so to speak, so we never see the bad guy’s “cards.”

      • @ Cliff H – Except that that’s exactly what the Second Amendment was written for, should all else fail. All else hasn’t failed yet, fortunately, and not by a long shot. It doesn’t have to “promote” anything, it just is.

    • Sir you are right on many points but your comment, “representative democracy” is a big part of our problem.
      Way too many people are ignorant as you are sir that we are NOT a representative Democracy, “the first step to Socialism”
      We are a Constitutional Republic.
      If you don’t know the difference then learn. PLEASE LEARN.
      One of the dirtiest words in this country is “DEMOCRACY!”

  27. This is what is called Irish Democracy — mass noncompliance with unjust or unreasonable laws.

    Every Democratic member of the legislature, the AG and the Governor knows that California gangs will get weapons from Mexico and sell to criminals and terrorists. They want Californians to be disarmed so the gangs can go about their business of terrorizing the law abiding citizens in the state. Californians are telling the Democrats to F-off.

  28. Well, our second hand troll is back. I do wonder what the attraction is to spewing non sequiturs and sophistries at odds with the P O V of the population one addresses. Neither learning, nor teaching. Neither convincing, nor being convinced. Mostly variations on “You suck.” wrapped in borrowed agitprop. How’s that get fun?

    Reurn of the Troll asserts one must resist an unjust law a particular way, or not be one of the “good guys.” Or to resist makes one no longer a “good guy.” Or something. Aside from “Guns bad.”, “More gun laws good.” and “Get behind these new ones, or you suck.”, he’s kinda all over the map.

    Rather than fisk the endless sophistries, here’s my take:

    – The law isn’t always right. Nor, in a republican system even constantly republican. Hijacking the process or institutions is an old, reliable strategy for scoundrels.

    – I won’t judge someone else’s choice of how to act under bad laws without knowing their entire circumstance. A parent may abide a bad law when getting caught violating it would deprive their kid, for example.

    – A criminal law or regulation always harms; is always an imposition. These things demand that people do other than they prefer, zo how else? The question is whether a law’s good justifies its harm.

    The recent California spasm of self-righteousness in banning Eeeevil Gun Things is bad law, badly done, for bad reasons, at odds with republican government, harming many, for no actual gain in safety, while creating more rake-offs and favor trading.

    How the people there must respond to remain “good guys”, I don’t know enough to say. I do know that the people who orchestrated this nonsense show themselves to be bad guys for what they did, and how.

    • “Reurn of the Troll asserts one must resist an unjust law a particular way, or not be one of the “good guys.” Or to resist makes one no longer a “good guy.””

      Of course, because the only way SJW types can “win” an argument is to control the language of the argument through false dichotomy, tautology, non sequitur and other fallacies.

      SJW’s always lie. (lie about facts, lie about what words mean, lie about what you said in counter-argument, etc).

      SJW’s always double down. (ignore logical rebuttal and continue to lie)

      SJW’s always project. (the very essence of ‘guns make people bad’ ideology…anti’s don’t trust themselves to make grown-up decisions that respect other people, so no one can)

      So. Very. Predictable.

        • @ 2Asux — Speaking of and for yourself yet again, I see. You gun-grabbers only ever get out-flanked, because you’re all so boringly predictable.

        • You have never, not once, outflanked me. Whatever delusions to the contrary you carry, don’t mistake being bored with your illogical rhetoric as conceding any kind of ‘defeat.’

          No matter what username / sockpuppet account you post under, your lines are tired and easily refuted. You hide behind so much tautology that your “arguments” are laughable.

          But hey, I bet those delusions keep you warm at night, so keep on.

  30. The California legislators and governor don’t seem to realize, they are destroying the social compact which compels citizens to obey the laws and regulations of the state…they are de-legitimizing themselves… but the only way to show them the error of their ways will likely include banding together and surrounding the state capitol as a large group, prepared to do violence to defend your rights. Good luck with that…or is it actually time for the new revolution (even if just in California)?

  31. I must admit that I was in a gun store today–actually two. But I was only looking for .452 lead hardcast lead bullets. I did take a look at the new Winchester 1873 in .44 mag. For a $1000, it is pretty slick and very pretty, nice fit and finish. Much nicer that the sticky Henry I took a peek at. But no .357s–apparently that caliber is really popular around here, probably because it is pretty cheap to shoot .38s. The most tempting thing I saw was a Springfield trapdoor.

  32. The Democrats are waging war against all American gun owners, not just in California. There are only 10 anti-gun states and they’re all controlled by Democrats. A Republican president will put more pro gun justices on the Supreme Court which will then correct the errant 10 states, including California. Without a Republican president the reverse will happen and more states will start enacting gun control laws. We all WILL BE SORRY if that happens.

  33. The people in California are to blame for stricked gun laws, sanctuary cities, illegal having driver license, high taxes, forcing companies to leave due to high taxes, oh and the so called hollywood celebrates who have body guard with guns and tell the other folks, you don’t need guns. Pay attention who you vote for and what movies, tv shows and musicians to avoid. If they are anti american don’t pay to watch their movies or buy their music. Remember!!! ITS WE THE PEOPLE!!!! ITS TIME WE TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK. WE CAN DO THAT BY NOT SUPPORTING THESE ANTI AMERICAN. AND WE DONT HAVE TO BE VIOLENT. HIT THESE PEOPLE IN THEIR WALLETS. VOTE OUT THE ANTI AMERICAN AND ANTI CONSTITUTION PIGS!!!!! These pigs want to take our freedom. They won’t stop with the 2nd Amendment. They already trying to take our 11st amendment. Wake up America!!!! I’m done ranting now.

  34. It’s quite simple: Give me liberty or give me death.

    To all the people claiming that fighting a superior Federal army is vain, and the people will lose, so be it. I would rather die having tried to save the land from scummy tryannists, than to exist a prisoner and be tortured by any and all modes that the Clintons, the Jerry Browns, Harry Reids and their new world order accomplices will do.

    • “Better to live on your knees, than to die on your feet”. – the old man to Nately; Catch-22.

      • I Expect you know a great deal about being on your knees you limey prick. You are so very tiresome.

        • And “they” claim Obama and Trump are thin-skinned.

          Do you still wonder why I fear the undisciplined, irresponsible, stranger with a gun?

        • @ 2Asux — And “they” are right, and it’s an apt description of everyone who did vote and would have voted for either of them (you) had they the chance.

          No, we don’t even have to wonder about that, since that’s not what you fear in the first place.

  35. I swear to god if you commiefornians start to leave and infect the States, we would hunt you down.

    Stand and fight you fucking cowards, if the laws fuck with your so-called natural rights, fuck the laws.

    Leaving your piece of dirt does us no favor, it just means we lost one more states with no chance of ever recovering it.

    • Hunt them down and do what, exactly? Oh, and just who is “we”, for that matter? You mean you and every other blowhard willing to stoop down to the same level as the gun-grabbers?

      You’re not gonna’ do shit to anybody. Get a clue.

      • Me and other blowhards would hunt them down and kill them.

        Traitors and cowards deserve no mercy or respect.

        • Friendly reminder: people that leave because of this are POTG

          Your IFF sensor needs recaliberation

        • @John Smith — No, you actually won’t, period. The loudest blowhards, like you, are always the ones who never follow through, without exception.

          You also have no way of knowing definitively if any of them are even traitors or cowards, either, setting aside the legislators and other agents of the state. It’s exactly this kind of rhetoric that makes you into exactly what you pretend to hate in the first place, and makes you the very reason why gun control advocates still hold so much sway today.

          You deserve neither mercy nor respect.

    • If the raw numbers are against them, would you have them continue to assault the wall, or retire and organize better defense in other states? Would not more pro-gun voters in undecided or pro-gun states not be a better result?

  36. Make no point what an minority there do 🙁
    Theres battlegrounds/swingstates and there are lost states as new york and commifornia that only can stopped white court forces and most courts are anti gun corrupt too ……
    Thats hard but the reality an art brexit is the best for that states >> remove them from union and lets them join nordkorea ore the eudssr !

  37. @2Asux I wonder how you feel about that whole Brexit issue, seeing as you are all about the will of the people and that those who are against something should build a voting block that cannot be denied. Or does that belief only extend as far as your own personal beliefs? You have very strong opinions about how the USA conducts itself, which by your language I would guess that you are a citizen of the UK and not an expat. If so, why not keep to your own national troubles. If you do happen to be an expat, why not come back home to the place you tout is filled with voters who undeniably agree with your view and advance your agenda?

    • Brexit means nothing to me: pound, euro, dinar, baht. Who cares? England swings like a pendulum do.

      • Regardless if it means anything to you, it actually matters a lot in both the short run and the long. Many millions of your fellow Britons care, apparently, not that you noticed, anyway.

  38. Perhaps we lost a battle, but make no mistake we are winning the war. The way to beat those on the other side is to do what I did yesterday – take someone NEW to shooting for the first time and get them interested in the “sport”. Better yet bring someone of color or a female. Indoctrination turns them into a supporter far faster than the progressives can turn someone to their darkside through their lies and propaganda.

    • It’s bullshit.

      They are bringing illegal immigrants faster than you can take them into the range.

      Not to mention after they leave the range, they go back home and get exposed right back to the anti-gun media and various campaigns of other anti-gun groups.

      Not to mention, them having fun shooting doesn’t mean they will support having guns in their homes or the 2nd ammendment at all.

        • I really appreciate your sentiment, but in this hour, we cannot win the war by just teaching the individual one by one.

          You have to take control of the government (can be done through voting) and through the government, limits or ends illegal immigration and start making the mainstream media pro-gun again.

          We would lose this war if we just stay passive, Hawaii and California are done, which state is next?

        • @ 2Asux — Good advice. We not going to listen to you, nor should we for that matter. We’re just going to keep dictating to you just how wrong you are and why until you either get bored or get a clue.

  40. 2Asux, are you a peter puffer? Did your parents have any children that lived?

    Why do I need an AR15 that holds large amounts of freedom?

    Because F*<K you, that's why.

  41. WOW! To many conversations on this thread.. Just wanted to add my two cents — Damn proud of Californian gun owners to stand up to these unconstitutional laws! Good for you!

  42. California? Just shows where a majority of Liberal/regressives would take us as a country. A facist/totalitarian nightmare.

    But overall? I’d say we are doing better than not, when it comes to gun rights. Most states have shall issue CC, we have eight states? with Constitutional Carry, with more in line to become free states..

    And after the last big massacre by a Muslim Fundmentalist, the most the the legislature is trying to pass is the No fly/no buy law with some due process protections.

    I think 2asux is just having sour grapes because his dream of his God the state having absolute power over the disarmed inmates of his prison nation is not coming to pass.

  43. In a very short period of time Commiefornia will be just like Venezuela.
    One thing that really does not come up on this site very well is not only the impact the Bolsheviks have on the POTG with all of the anti-2A legislation and propaganda; but the impact of their Marxist policies on other business, industrial, legal, and other issues.
    A good example is a Federal Court ruling that the Government does not need a search warrant to peruse your computer.
    Of course the NSA and the Patriot Act is just as bad as the crap pushed by the Donkeycraps.
    Either you are moving towards liberty or you are moving towards tyranny.

    • A way to get perspective is to realize this whole process is not new. All civilizations go through this process.

      For us, as a western civilization, it was also at the end of the Greek and Roman republics.

      Ben Franklin said it very well. A republic only lasts until the people can vote themselves largess from the public treasury, then they will vote for politicians to give them such largess; and in the attempt to keep the lucre flowing, the politicians will debase the currency, leading to fiscal instability, and ultimately collapse, then chaos, then totalitarianism to maintain control. (Paraphrasing).

      It’s the fault of the people. The politcians are simply “representatives” of the people, after all.

      Those that don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

      • It’s the fault of the people. The politcians are simply “representatives” of the people, after all.
        To a degree that is true, but I really do think the political system is rigged and this election cycle for the POTUS shows that all too well.
        500 superdelegates for Hitlery?
        Jeb! and all the other establishment RINOs?
        AG Lynch and Hitlery?
        Benghazi?
        Fast and Furious?
        Mid East policies?
        Clinton Cash?

        • Yeah. But in the end, there’s a lot more of us than there are of them. If enough of we the people really wanted to be free and not under the thumb, and guns of the elite, they wouldn’t stand a snow ball’s chance in hell in resisting us.

          • You are correct in your conclusion, but you are also correct in your base statement. It is the first proposition that controls the future.

          • You are correct in your conclusion, but you are also correct in your base statement. It is the second sentence that controls the future.

      • The only thing history teaches us is that history teaches us nothing. – Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

        (or words to that effect)

        • If history teaches us nothing, then what possible reason could you have to support gun control?

          • Because history does not teach us that common sense gun regulation totally ineffective.

            Thank you for the softball.

        • @ 2Asux — Except that history does in fact teach us that gun control is totally ineffective, that none of it is “common sense” outside Common Law, and that you couldn’t possibly even begin to argue otherwise.

          Thank you for yet another home run.

          History can and does teach us a lot of things, and it’s unfortunate that you lot choose to ignore it.

  44. Damn 2Asux!

    I started reading comments and noticed you responded to EVERY SINGLE POST.

    Just how much is the progressive media paying you to spread their lies and piss people off?

    Most people here would respond to one or two posts if they really felt the need. But you, man that amount of effort must have taken you several hours. That’s more effort that most liberals put towards their everyday job…

    Thus, this must be your job. How do you list this on your resume? Professional Troll? Trolling Subject Matter Expert, Head up my own ass specialist? Just curious.

    • Community Organizer.

      If someone takes time to respond to my comments, I think they deserve the respect of a reply (though my response rate is not fully 100%)

  46. 2Asux:
    “those of us who wish to live without fearing everyone we meet is carrying a gun that might be dropped, misused, or wielded criminally.”

    Hoplophobia. You have it.

    But at least there may be hope for you because you at least mentioned criminals.

    Most hoplophobics can’t distinguish good guys from bad guys at all, so there is that.

    Anyway, good luck with your personal problem. But really, you and other hoplophobes really should stay out of the business of fully functioning adults and their rights.

    • Personal problems of 2asux?

      He’s a good representative of the liberal/regressive paradigm. A complete submersion of self into the body of the state, with no acknowledgement of individual rights beyond what is given by the state. The “collective” good, doncha know.

      Of course he would argue for the supremacy of the courts as the final arbiter of all that is “lawful”. For there is no “law”, no individual rights, that is outside of what the state allows.

      Of course, the other part of his complete submission and defense to this “authoritay” is that without the activist regressive judges, none of the regressive agenda of the left would have passed constitutional muster.

      So when looking into the heart of darkness, that acknowledges no inherent individual rights beyond what is “given” by the god of state, one can see the tens of millions murdered in the gulags of Soviet Russia, and the almost hundred million murdered in the Cultural Revolution of Maoist China.

      I’ve been reading “Atlas Shrugged” with Ayn Rands personal experience as a child of the mass cultural madness and death in communist Russia.

      I can see the creation of Ayn Rands universe in the United States now in our own shift towards that spawn of communism called liberal/progressivism.

      yep. There is nothing new under the sun, because human nature is the same as it ever was.

      • When the day comes that we, as a species, collectively and universally evolve morally to the point that there is no longer any evil in any of us, then we will no longer have need of arms of any kind.
        Until that day comes, it will remain immoral for our rulers, elected or otherwise, to prohibit the tools to physically defend our lives or liberty.
        What’s funny is that people who fear their fellow man enough to want everyone disarmed, or restrict common arms, also believe that their fellow man would not suppress or enslave them when the power to oppose them is removed. Typical contradictory logic.

        • If a primary tool of enslavement/suppression is removed, how is my fellow man going to suppress/enslave me?

        • Ah so we remove firearms from police and military too. Is this before or after we remove them from civilians? Before or after crime and injustice cease to exist? Before or after we achieve world peace?

        • @ 2Asux — Good question, for once. Being that the primary tool of enslavement and oppression is in fact the government (262 MILLION+ lives lost to democide in the last 100 years and counting), how will you impose your draconian gun control nonsense on your fellow man?

          • You have not begun to learn how devious and single-minded we can be. It will probably all happen under a single concept the makes it virtually impossible to move, maintain, upgrade, transfer your weapons. The details will be subtle at first, then breath-taking in later stages.

            My personal favorite is that with 100 million gun owners (your stats), it is highly probably every driver and passenger in an automobile is in possession of a gun. That creates such a public safety issue that police have de facto and permanent probable cause to search vehicles and persons to determine if guns or gun paraphernalia are present in a location outside the home, and off owned property. If found to be in possession, a multi-thousand dollar fine will be imposed, and the guns confiscated (you have an inalienable right to have a gun in the home, and on the property for self-defense, but not elsewhere). Eventually there will be so many restrictions that having a gun will be useless. And we are not overlooking the idea that we can get laws passed the prevent even the inheritance of any and all guns and supplies.

            Once it starts, it will be swift, wide-spread and overwhelming.

            Of course it is all unnecessary, but if gun owners will not regulate themselves, society must act.

        • @ 2Asux — We already know, and have known for quite some, exactly how devious and single-minded you can be. We are constantly left unsurprised and frankly unimpressed. Your incrementalism has been all but halted on the national, state, and local levels. We have only been witness to your subtle, and later breath-taking, impotence and stupidity.

          My personal favorite is with gun owners outnumbering your precious jackboots more than 100 to 1, and with the public now rightly moving away from seeing guns as a public safety issue, that you honestly think there are enough cops to search every vehicle and home in the first place. Not to mention there isn’t now and there won’t ever be a “general, permanent probably cause” to search for guns, specifically. As we begin to move away from such policies as a result of the waning war on drugs, so too shall we move away from your pathetic war on guns. Such sweeping measures like hefty fines for simple will never find purchase outside the deep blue cesspools your lot already has super-majority control of — even within deep blue states (we have the inalienable right to self-defense wherever we have a right to be). Eventually, there will be so many people breaking the law that pursuing violators will be useless, and police will instead rightly refocus their efforts on catching real criminals. Like, murders, rapists, and thieves. We are not overlooking the idea that we can get laws passed that make it a felony for any duly elected official to even introduce a gun control bill.

          If it ever starts, it will be repealed as noncompliance will be swift, wide-spread, and overwhelming.

          We know it’s unnecessary, and the continually shrinking minority of society that your lot inhabits can act all it wants to: us gun owners will always win, one way or the other, regardless of what you do.

      • If individuals are the final authority on law, then you have chaos and mob rule, rendering courts useless in every circumstance. “Your world, and welcome to it.”(Thurber, sort of)

        • Nailed it! Exactly why we have a constitutional republic, so the fickle mob doesn’t rule at the whims of the majority.
          Very wise conclusion, 2Asux. 🙂

          • Even then, you still need courts to sort the conflicting legal claims of the public. However, many here consider themselves above the courts, justified in deciding the law for themselves. One wonders at how those individuals intend to enforce their version of the law.

            Actually, it is no mystery at all how they intend to enforce their laws, is it? Fortunately, none truly possess the courage to implement jungle law, so they will comply with court orders/decisions, bitch about it, and remain law-abiding.

        • @ 2Asux — Individuals are the final authority on law, and yet, we in the West don’t have mob rule (riots notwithstanding). It is up the individual to decide whether or not to abide by the law.

          Anyway, we don’t necessarily need state courts to sort out contractual or territorial disputes, though it is rather convenient to have a (ideally) neutral third-party arbiter to mediate. However, you hypocritically consider yourself such an arbiter, deferring to an inept, corrupt, and ass-backwards “judicial” system in all matters moral and legal despite knowing they’re flat-out dead wrong more than they’re even half-right.

          It’s actually no mystery as to how you would like to see the law applied. Fortunately, you don’t have the courage to actively campaign for it, even though we won’t comply with certain laws or court orders and decisions, and you can only piss and moan about that.

          • “Fortunately, you don’t have the courage to actively campaign for it,…”

            It’s what I do, man; campaign and support campaigns. Why do you think I am a subscriber to this blog. Someone’s gotta tell you what is happening to you, and why. Hope to change minds? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on who is wise enough and has insight to grasp the obvious here.

    • Not afraid of guns (or other dead metallic object). Afraid of strangers with guns, and unknown intent,

      And just because it is odd, I am an avid reader of Jeff Cooper.

      • Let me get this straight.

        You distrust people you don’t know and your fear of armed strangers (not just criminals) exists and is amplified because you choose to remain disarmed and continue to be at the mercy of would-be attackers.

        And your solution is put everyone in a defenseless state so they are just like you: a willing victim.

        Wow.

        • No, I am not for making everyone a victim. Outside of risky areas and places of a town or city, the risk of criminal attack is “statistically insignificant”. You require that I silently endure the “statistical insignificance” of being killed or injured by an ND, but you are unwilling to endure the “statistical insignificance” of being victim of criminal attack locations outside high crime areas. And you see this as the just order of nature.

        • Pretty sure there is more crime outside of high crime areas than there are negligent discharge injuries to innocent bystanders.

          • You may have better information than I, but statistically insignificant remains statistically insignificant.

            Stupid people doing stupid things in stupid places doesn’t mean it only happens in high crime areas. Recently read an article about a Walmart (not in a designated “high crime” area) where the police are called several hundred times a year regarding shoplifting. Going to that Walmart would not be particularly smart, going there after dark would not be considered even smarter. Avoiding that Walmart reduces to near-zero the probability one would encounter a shoplifting incident gone bad. Not being at that Walmart reduces the need to have a gun for self-protection in a sketchy location.

      • So, because YOU personally can’t distinguish law abiding from criminals, EVERYONE should be disarmed. Except I suppose for the chosen few you dean worthy.

        Self-important much? Hate to break it to you, but you aren’t a monarch and can’t tell people who can and can’t be armed. Hence, the beauty of the United States — working as intended.

        Meanwhile, tens of thousands of DGUs happen every year and the active crime deterrent in effect by gun ownership (ie we outnumber criminals) keeps crime at an all time low.

        You’re welcome I suppose.

        I’m guessing you also don’t trust the police or military either to follow your logic as they are also “strangers with guns” with questionable intent. So I hope you don’t ever avail of their services as that would be against your narrative.

        • “So, because YOU personally can’t distinguish law abiding from criminal, EVERYONE should be disarmed.

          Self-important much”

          How shallow.

          If everybody (non-criminals, of course) were disarmed, everybody would share the same level of safety as would I. Making everybody special.

          I will believe your DGU statistics, AND your proposition that guns are the major factor in the overall decline of crime in America, IF you accept my statistics about human-caused, rampant climate change/damage.

        • @ 2Asux — If everybody was disarmed, you actually return to a state of nature in which if you weren’t born and grew up bigger and stronger than everyone else, you’re simply meat for those that already were. You don’t have any real measure of safety unless you’re young, fit, and strong, or are rich enough to hire a full-time body guard in that scenario.

          We don’t have to concede any-damn-thing whatsoever to be correct about DGU statistics or the fact that crime has continued to steadily decline despite the growth in both the total number of guns in circulation and the total number of people that own guns. We have the data sets to prove that we’re right. Whether you choose to accept those conclusions is irrelevant and inconsequential to us.

          • I fear you are consumed with yourself: DGU “statistics” are guesses; who would report a DGU that resulted in no shooting, no injury, no need for police involvement? There are known DGUs, but the number you rely on is not verifiable. It is a projection, based on assumptions, like so much of climate change “data”.

            There is no causal relationship between gun proliferation and crime reduction. Read materials from your own side. The stock market has risen over and over again in correlation with increased gun purchases.

      • @ 2Asux — You are afraid of guns, as there is absolutely no rational explanation whatsoever to support gun control other than simple (and often willful) ignorance.

        If you actually ever were an avid reader of Jeff Cooper, you’d know this.

        • I find Cooper informative and entertaining. I am not required to subscribe to his views. He keeps me aware of how ridiculous we can be at times. Sharpens the mind. Of course, studying adversarial material is not for everyone.

  47. We have the blue print for change right in front of us: The Volstead Act and “Prohibition”.

    Publicly and privately fail to comply. Use every trick you can – dirty and clean. It worked for alcohol and its working for drugs (at least MJ). Changing the law by breaking it is as American as it gets.

    Customs are more powerful than laws.

  48. Excellent, Nullification by non compliance! sort of like the prohibition against Booze, better get organized because the CUNT Squad (California Uniform Negation Tribunal) composed of Illegal Democrats and Muslims are coming door to door too execute their Orders against all those who have illegal weapons, (oops accidentally killed him) They can Legally act like Isis!
    Semper Paratus, Non Sibi Sed Patriae1

  50. 2Aux replied:
    “As a citizen, I would obey the law until the law was overturned by repeal or modification. To presume to have authority to act as I please, whenever I please, without consequence, is to grant such to everyone else, wherein lies utter chaos.”

    While appreciate a solid law-abiding citizen, one should ask what democratic process was available to 6 million jews following the law. Hindsight allows a moral imperative to surface, however at the time citizens were required to “follow the law”.

    If that reached to far in history perhaps this would be helpful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4qrFFxqxg

    Everyone in the video, exception the killers, were following the law. Bystanders observing and no attempt to apprehend the murderers, to include police officers present, until a gun squad arrived. So without a gun squad, the killers were free to kill others, fortunately a twisted goal of promulgating the murder prevented anyone else in the area from dying that day.

    One cannot legally defend oneself in the UK
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/20985-self-defense-in-the-uk-is-illegal

    Another account http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/01/a-plea-for-self-defense-in-great-britain.php

    Mr. Brady recounts another incident in Great Britain where an armed National Crime Officer happened to be at the scene of a would-be mass murder, and stopped it. Firearms, as Mr. Brady says, are well-known as effective tools of self-defense: It is for this reason that UK authorities routinely protect politicians and dignitaries with armed escorts, but when it comes to us ordinary citizens, the state appears to consider our defense rights as almost irrelevant and then goes on to reinforce that policy by removing any and all tools that the law-abiding citizen could realistically use to that end. So the state not only fails to protect the citizen, it deliberately renders him defenseless. The result in the United Kingdom has been a steady increase in violent crime, even as violent crime continues to drop in the much better-armed United States. The violent crime rate in the traditionally peaceful U.K. now far exceeds that in the U.S.

    So 2Aux assertion that without citizens following the law, there would be “utter chaos”. I submit that following English law one is waiting for the assault and at mercy of criminal. If this is how you want to follow the law then that’s your choice. Americans are of the mindset that individual liberty and lawful self defense is the hallmark of a chaos free society.

    • I noted that when society becomes oppressive, intolerable, I will relocate. It is an unhappy truth that the Jews of Europe were aware of what was happening, and even after proof the government intended to slaughter them, they remained. Many left, but not millions. I recommend two books by Herman Wouk: Winds of War; War and Remembrance.

      Wouk theorizes a believable explanation of why the Nazis were able to subjugate the Jewish population. His idea actually can be applied in places, today. His explanation does not directly address why so few guards controlled so many thousands of soon to die prisoners (along with 6 million Jews, there were 16 to 20 million non-Jews murdered by the Nazis), but may shed some light on that circumstance, as well.

      • @ 2Asux — As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, you don’t always have the option of simply picking up and leaving. Millions of them didn’t have the capacity to pull up stakes and leave far enough away. I would recommend that you take your own advice, for once, and start actually reading some books yourself.

        • If my life is on the line for living in a particular spot, if I know the government is disappearing my neighbors, if I know remaining in my quarters will result in certain death, I will find a way to flee. Maybe not successfully, but I will flee. Circumstance is no excuse for refusing to leave your condition. Don’t tell me your sad story about all the poor wretches who cannot remove themselves from certain death. When the only choices are death at home, or maybe death on the run, I take a chance on the “maybe”.

  52. I’m curious. With 4th of July around the corner:

    What do all the anti-2A people celebrate on the 4th of July?

    I ask this question, because at the heart of the 4th is the freedom gained and the Declaration of Independence of the United States — all made possible by force of arms. Firearms, to be exact.

    Seems hypocritical and just plain disrespectful that anyone opposed to the 2nd Amendment or the infringement of the Rights of the People and/or the US Constitution should celebrate this holiday.

    Just sayin’.

    • “What do all the anti-2A people celebrate on the 4th of July?”

      Beer, pretzels, hot dogs?

      Serious answer: Guns, cannon, shot and shell were once required, but we have moved on as a society. There is to be no new revolution; none needed.

      • Beer, pretzels, hot dogs?

        Every bite you eat is brought to you buy people with guns that fought for your freedom. Enjoy the hypocrisy.

        • “…brought to you buy people with guns that fought for your freedom.”

          Are you proposing the we who employ soldiers for defence can only be honorable if we run ragged around with guns of our own? “Rough men stand ready in the night….” Yes, yes. That is what we pay them for. That we are still here is due to those Rough Men. That they remain ready in the night is because we are still here to pay them. Symmetry.

          But we do not pay them to be internal police, now do we?

        • @ 2Asux — No, that isn’t what he is proposing and you damn-well know it. However, they are under no obligation to provide individual security — the level at which it is most needed and immediately — nor to enforce court orders of protection or to even retain arrested persons in their custody.

          The military is there to defend against national threats. The police are there to defend against communal threats. Individually, it is still up to us to defend ourselves when we ourselves are attacked.

      • @ 2Asux — “Need” is not an argument. Our rights don’t change with the march of time or technology, and are not at all subject to the democratic process nor to (non)arguments grounded in social utility. You do not and cannot know if there is to be another revolution or not, either.

  53. I read all the comments. All.

    @2Asux;
    You really are psychotic. You said so here;
    2Asux says:
    July 3, 2016 at 03:00

    I was not the one to say “America, love it or leave it.” When one says to an immigrant, “If you don’t like it here (meaning being like us), then go back where you came from”, the conclusion can only be that the person making that declaration does not want anyone here who is different.

    2Asux says:
    July 3, 2016 at 01:37

    Because you could become a murderer in an instant, and we have a natural and civil right not to be randomly killed just to make your hobby more pleasant for you.

    And we are not singling-out guns as is normally thought, we are talking gun rights because this blog is about guns. Duh.

    ” I fear the normal-appearing person who has a gun and can just snap in a crowded location”

    To the rest of you: Good job.

    Joe

    • At the end of the day. 2Asux is just an opinionated serf. He wants himself and everyone to be ruled over because he can’t control is own paranoia and fears of a society that isn’t fully controlled.

      That is perfectly fine. He is welcome to go live in one of the many countries that will provide him with that way of life. Go forth and be merry if that is your cup of tea.

      The United States of America, however, is not that country. Our freedom from oppression from a monarchy was gained by use of arms. And it still is. So if you don’t like it, no one is keeping you here. As far as your opinions of how and why we should change… I don’t see the problem as you see it.

      I see failures in how our govt protects our citizens through the FBI and police on occasion, that’s all that needs tweaking. Nothing to do with firearms or the US Constitution.

      • “The United States of America, however, is not that country. Our freedom from oppression from a monarchy was gained by use of arms.”

        We rebelled because the Crown refused to allow Americans the rights of Englishmen.

        Californians will rebel because are our rights are denied as well. Either at the voting booth, our feet, or our powder.

      • Did you ever wonder why England gave up the colonies in America? It was because there was not enough value to justify the expense and effort to retain the colonies. Americans have made good use of themselves, had a remarkable run as world leader. But the original decision to jettison the investment was prudent.

          • Yes, Americans defeated the army fielded against them. Do you truly believe England lacked to wherewithal to reinforce or expand the armies in America? Do you think, given different circumstances, England lacked for power to subjugate the colonies?

            No.

            Parliament was already weary of dealing with America. Support for further treasure to be spent to spank the colonists was seriously wanning, and then, an entirely new war erupted, a war England considered existential (keeping colonies was not). France did not just send some scruffy group of volunteers to aid the Americans, France formally declared war on England. That long-running rivalry placed the American colonies in the backwater of British interests, where they belonged. Defeating France was so much more important than maintaining a group of colonies who, on the best of days, rated only a back-page news article.

            Another example of a nation unwilling to do everything necessary wipe-out the irritant, entirely. Laying waste to every structure and landholding would have given a very different result. And the loyal Americans (loyal to the Crown) would have accepted the result as that justly due a rebellious possession of empire.

            • Actually, much of Parliament was against the king, recognizing he overstepped his power and was violating the law. He ignored them.

              • Yes, that is correct. Parliament found the enterprise not worth the entertainment value.

                And there were more pressing matters afoot.

        • @ 2A Sux — England actually gave up on its American colonies because they physically couldn’t retain them.

          We know that England lacked the power and resources necessary to keep subjugating the American colonies, too.

          Yes.

          Even were they not in it with the French and the Spanish, it would have only been a matter of time, anyway.

          Another example of a nation fully willing to do everything necessary to wipe out an irritant, entirely, but lacking the capacity to do so. Laying waste to every structure and landholding would have only given an equally undesirable result. The loyalists would have been absolutely appalled and the unjust treatment of their brethren.

    • “Psychotic” is not the correct or accurate term. Try again, English is such a rich language.

      Hey…..why is it America still speaks the language of the hated and cast-off motherland? Why does the world no recognize a separate language called, “American”? Perhaps America is not so influential as boasted?

      • @ 2Asux — “Psychotic” is actually quite fitting. You need to try again and to quit being wrong, too, while you’re at it.

        American English is much more different than the English spoken across the pond than the two are alike, and the world does recognize these differences. America is far more influential, for better or for worse, than you’ll ever admit.

  54. I didn’t see where anyone was vowing to no comply in the short article/blurb. Of course I cannot access the FBI-surveillance-book page.

    Was there some confirmation of a widespread non-compliance declaration or ‘I Will Not Comply’ movement?

  55. Gun owners have such a facile relation to the language. Always a joy to see the depth of reason and logic of gun owners.

    Run along, now, and tell Mummy you really slapped the old man not from here.

    • 2Aux replies:

      “I will ask you again: how many of the recent mass shooters were criminals, gang members, or “bad guys with a gun” immediately before they began shooting? How many were “good guys with a gun” until the moment they opened fire. The answers are not projection”.

      Absolutely true…no government can project when an Jihadist attacks or when a good guy cracks. The issue is local, state and federal governments denying good citizens their ability to lawfully protect themselves when a mass murder strikes, in effect depriving the liberty of life by refusing the one tool that most effectively preserves it.

      Twenty-three words written 230 years ago does more to protect citizen from mass murderers than all laws, security briefs, or opinions ever written. Local sheriffs (they are elected) are the key to increasing the number of arm citizens. By streamlining whatever process required we can steadily increase society’s ability to protect citizens.

      • Why is it gun owners would insist on training of auto mechanics, or home healthcare assistants/nurses, on CPAs, but blithely presume that untrained, undisciplined, unreliable people everywhere should have a gun without any notion of requiring even minimal qualification (here, I mean voluntary or mandated qualificatin; either can fill the need)? The right to have a gun, and put others in danger because you haven’t the foggiest idea how to properly manage a firearm is illogical, dangerous and indefensible.

        • @ 2Asux — Why is it that gun grabbers would make knowingly inapplicable and totally irrelevant comparisons and analogies to things that not only aren’t natural, fundamental, individual, and civil, aand Constitutionally-affirmed and protected rights — subject neither to the democratic process nor to (non)arguments grounded in social utility — but are necessarily regulated in a totally different manner simply because they’re not guns? Especially when most every profession is littered with people that are every bit as poorly or untrained, undisciplined, and unreliable as you falsely think that most gun owners are? To allow people like you to decide how peaceable exercise their rights is what’s actually illogical, dangerous, and indefensible.

          Set aside the completely unarguable and all-consuming fact that you yourself haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re even talking about to begin with, regardless of whatever it is you’ve thus far cared to discuss anywhere on this page — or even on the whole of this blog, for that matter.

          Gun control doesn’t work. It has never worked. Not anywhere, any time, under any circumstance, for anyone. It is never going to work. There is absolutely zero evidence — empirical or otherwise — that even begins to suggest the barest correlation. Much less any definitive causal link.

    • @ 2Asux — Gun grabbers have such a tenuous grip on reason and reality. Always a joy to see their dystopian delusions torn asunder by people that know better.

      Run along, now, and tell Big Brother that those mean little gun owners refuted your detestable lies.

  56. Let’s not overcomplicate the use of a simple machined tool used to throw a rock, nor invest heavily in the moral implications of its use. Load, chamber, point, pull trigger…takes a few hours to sort out.

    Lawful self protection requires only one action, immediately stop the threat. An unarmed society doesn’t have the means nor the will to apply the most appropriate action to limit murder of citizens.

    To use your same argument how does one properly manage a mass murderer, recent events would have one memorize passages from the Quran, fleeing is another option, or the not statistically significant, until you become a statistic, intellectual fall back position…stops the upcoming carnage.

    Two laps around the planet in some of the worst shitholes this planet has to offer, a skirmish under my belt (former military), countless years carrying arms, I’ve never fired at another person, my arms have never discharged themselves. I flow through cities and rural areas and interact with people daily, none know that I’m armed. I’m not alone, millions do everyday.

    The last conflict remaining is how does a representative democracy protect itself against a religion of submission with a culture of death for non compliance.

    While we can disagree about guns, there use, others with no regard to laws will use them to take away life for no other reason than to promulgate their vision into the western world. And while we grow older, shorter of breath, and one day closer to death (h/t to Mr. Waters), I prefer to leave by my choosing than by others.

  57. You guys really fed the troll this time didn’t you! Old bean could barely keep up with all of the sniping. Very enjoyable to watch. Remember trolls are like stray dogs, if you keep feeding them they will come back.

    • American command of the King’s English is abominable. Even in your own internet lexicon, “Troll” describes the hit-and-run artist. Not someone who will stand and debate over the long term.

      When I see “Troll” bandied about, I rejoice in the knowledge that the pro-gun supporters cannot articulate, and they reinforce themselves so. Do you find it curious that so many cannot raise their argument above name-calling? Why, If I didn’t know better, I would think you were those mythical anti-gun sycophants pro-gun people accuse of being unable to discuss anything without reverting to personal attacks and foul language.

      But I can learn, and I learn that pro-gun people scream “Troll” when their echo chamber is disturbed.

      Thanks for playing,

      • Actually, you are the one getting played. Got your panties in a twist and thoroughly worn out last night by the POTG. You also cause this site to get more hits and traffic which further helps our cause. The fact you sit down and give long winded rambling responses shows you yearn to feel important and also have no relevance in life. Your arguments and diatribes are baseless and way off topic when you can’t come up with retorts or answers. I have seen examples of fools such as yourself in the world. Leading with your glass chin and going down in flames of denial when you get verbally KO’d. The more time we take up of yours here, the less mischief you cause in the world with your ideas. But surely someone as intelligent as you can see that. So please, keep coming back and posting…..all day and night! Happy Independence Day…..troll. I’ll be sure to shoot a few rounds in your honor at the range this afternoon. Isn’t freedom and the 2A wonderful? LOL.

        • Keep the echo chamber undisturbed.

          I perceive you reply to be another example of, “Hey! Guns! Got mine. That’s all I care about. STFU”.

          How’s that for not being long-winded?

      • If the shoe fits…

        In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

      • Here is your other shoe Cinderella…..
        Libtard
        As repetitive as it sounds, it stands for “liberal retard.”

        A libtard wants to live in a fantasy world (in which life is the way that they WISH IT WAS) as opposed to dealing with life the way it actually is.

        (This explains the religious fervor that many of them demonstrate when it comes to smoking pot).

        The most idealistic libtard envisions a time when science/technology and Socialism will eliminate all poverty, hunger, war, disease, injustice, unemployment and prejudice. (It is a nice pipe dream but human nature will forever stand in the way of that goal).

        Most libtards subscribe to the notion that “people are basically good”, and build their foundation for activism and “improving the human condition” on that faulty premise. Because they deny the facts about human nature, their “reasoning” is diametrically opposite to common sense (blue states vs. red states).

        The reality that people have different initiative levels, are basically selfish, and often work for their own interests before helping others, puts a libtard’s panties in a wad. So, when citizens will not voluntarily comply with various libtard prescriptions for “the common good”, then laws must be passed, or force used, to MAKE them comply. (It is the gradual path to totalitarianism).

        Likewise, his/her naïve cries of: “can’t we all just get along?” and “there is nothing worth dying for” are red flags for anyone with a clue.

        Metaphorically speaking, a libtard is a sheep who thinks that their grasp of diplomatic nuance or metaphysical sensitivity will prevent their flock from being devoured by the world’s Islamic/Communist wolves. When America, the sheep dog, responds to wolf attacks, the libtard judges these defensive actions as offensive and wolfish.

        Since libtards are unable to recognize our enemies for what they are, they cannot be trusted to safeguard our future.

        >>>>>

        In a large nutshell, a libtard’s goal in life includes one or more of the following:

        –the establishment of a Socialist “utopia” (a.k.a. a global nanny state)
        –“benevolent” totalitarian control of the world’s population through any means necessary
        –ever increasing government micromanagement of private enterprise (a.k.a. clueless meddling)
        –the adoption of laws, treaties and tax regulations that hinder America’s competitiveness
        –the usurpation of the legislative process, at all levels, through judicial fiat
        –the filing of specious law suits in order to thwart the will of the people (e.g. Calif. Proposition. 187)
        –the promotion of the tyranny of the minority
        –the filing of specious law suits to shakedown corporations for cash (under the guise of “social responsibility”)
        –the disproportionate taxation of citizens “who have more money than they need”
        –the redistribution of wealth from producers to non-producers (under the guise of “fairness”)
        –the banning and confiscation of all privately owned guns (even though it has lead to genocide)
        –the abolition of all private property rights
        –the destruction of all national sovereignty (America first, of course)
        –the destruction of Capitalism
        –the establishment of one religion (with no personal accountability), OR the abolition of all religion
        –the appeasement of Islamic radicals and their American front groups like CAIR (see: Religion of Pieces)
        –the regulation, or banning, of all opposition media (under the guise of “fairness”)
        –the appeasement of Communist dictators and their American front groups
        –the further insertion of Socialist ideology and indoctrination into public school curricula
        –the purposeful “dumbing down” of the masses through inane public school curricula and pedagogy
        –mass thought control through “speech codes” and political correctness
        –the further promulgation of the homosexual/pedophile agenda
        –the teaching of HATE (superficially disguised as “Women’s Studies”, “African Studies”, etc.)
        –the legalization of marijuana (“far OUT, man”)
        –the establishment of world wide socialized medicine (under the guise of “fairness”)
        –the conservation of the environment over the conservation of the American economy
        –the demonization of attempts to make English America’s national language
        –world peace (which genocidal dictators define as: “the absence of conflict”–dead men cannot resist your brutal oppression)
        –the conservation of the environment over the conservation of humanity
        –the promotion of abortion as birth control, eugenics, and teaching the theory of evolution as fact (even though the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics precludes it from the get-go)
        –the abolition of individual freedom
        –anarchy

        Not surprisingly, there is a thread of anti-Americanism that runs through these ideas. A libtard cannot stomach the idea that America, despite its faults, is the greatest country in the world. As such, he/she sees it as their duty to tarnish the country’s current and past image using all available means including: cherry picking facts and using innuendo, half-truths, lies and fabrications (see: Rathergate).

        Libtards’ actions undermine America’s educational system, economy, criminal justice system, military personnel, sovereignty, security, and freedoms. Meanwhile, they try to fabricate a moral equivalence with rogue nations like China, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, Somalia and Sudan. (But don’t question their patriotism).

        NOTE TO ALL MALCONTENTS: If America is truly evil, please pick yourself a better country.

        If the health care system in Cuba, Canada or Great Britain is superior to America’s, then you are free to leave. If the crime rate in China, North Korea or the Magic Kingdom is so much lower, then you too are free to leave. Not enough hedonism for you? Then try Amsterdam, Bangkok or Tijuana.

        If life in general is better in Sweden, The Netherlands or Switzerland then WHY are you still here??? You talk big, but you lack the courage of your convictions. So do humanity a favor–shut up and move away.

        Otherwise get a real job, and get a life, because you obviously have WAY too much time on your hands.

        >>>>>

        Because most libtards are pantheists (New Agers), agnostics, atheists, liberal Jews, liberal Catholics, or have otherwise turned their backs on Jehovah, they lack true spiritual fulfillment. In order to try and fill that void, and “to make a difference”, they work for the causes listed above. A pretty complete listing can be found at discoverthenetworks.org.

        A libtard will participate in protests, rallies, marches, bike rides, etc. in a feckless attempt to change whatever supposedly needs changing (see: muckadoo). Their desire to revisit the “glory” days of the 60’s is sometimes a driving force. Regardless, the end result is usually the same: nothing actually changes.

        But, since a libtard wants to be rated for his/her good intentions, versus actual results, they leave these activities with a feeling of success “because they have raised awareness” or “let their voices be heard.” Post-protest gatherings often feature excessive drinking, drug abuse, and impromptu fornication to celebrate the “victory.”

        Because conservatives take responsibility for themselves and their children, have real jobs, under gird the economy, and value their time, their counter protesting is often negligible.

        It is not that they don’t care about their causes; they just understand that 1968 tactics are useless. Likewise, their sense of self worth does not come from how well they perform at work, or in life, but from a realization that they have been given a good and satisfying destiny that no one can take away.

        With all of this in mind, may we NOW question a libtard’s patriotism???

        • Nice posting; read it all. Thank you for taking the time to construct the lists.

          Perhaps some information would be useful:
          – Humankind is degenerate, evil and incapable of self-regeneration. Which is why pursuing wisdom, education and illumination is so important. We all need to help each other move beyond our base instincts. Remaining stuck in the defeatism of the past wastes precious resources….people.
          – Spock said it best
          – Being respectful of people and resources is not a character flaw
          – The Moon is a harsh mistress, and so is life in general. We can struggle against it, or we can down tools and perish in our perverseness
          – Follow the Four Rules of Gun Safety, get trained, stay trained. Always be aware you are an agent of death; a great responsibility,
          – Success is not found in what you succeed at, it is found in what you fail at and overcome into success
          – Winners desire pleasing/positive outcomes; losers desire pleasant methods
          – When you point a finger at another, you have three pointing back at you
          – Wanting success and happiness for all does not imply it must first be taken from others; use a little creativity
          – The poor do not help the poor; only the richer can help the poor
          – The more one is granted, the more is required of you
          – There can be no pride in a nation where 25% of the population is destitute
          – Without hope, the people perish
          – If society cannot see the vision, or reverts to selfishness, leaders must urge, cajole, shame and harass the people forward (likely a plateau upon which to rest, relax, become fossilized and complacent; needing yet another vanguard of leaders)
          – When the people have nothing to lose, they just might take if from YOU
          – It is a foolish man who takes himself to bed thinking, “What a fine fellow I am, look at all I have done, all I possess”, believing he is sufficient unto himself
          – When you reap the harvest of your efforts, do not pick clean the corners of your field; else you leave the land and the people barren
          – Money is to be used to prosper as many as possible; greed corrupts the soul
          – Learn; be strong enough to recognize error reinforced by pride
          – Be useful at something, teach others the same

          Signed: Your resident Libtard

      • @ 2Asux — Your command of logic and critical thinking is what’s actually abominable.

        When we see your lot’s common labels of “Nazi”, “racist,” “sexist,” “xenophobe,” “ethnocentrist,” “egocentrist,” “homophobe,” “Islamaphobe,” “insurrectionist,” and (many) others bandied about, we rejoice in the knowledge that the anti-gun supporters cannot articulate anything and you reinforce yourselves so. We find it curious that you simply cannot rise above your hypocrisy, calling us names and only after we have for a fact rightly refuted every thesis you’ve presented here. Why, if we didn’t know any better (but we do naturally know better than you anyway), we would think that you were one of those mythical pro-gun psychopaths the anti-gun people accuse of being unable to discuss anything without reverting to personal attacks and foul language.

        You can’t learn, and we learned that you don’t even know what an echo chamber is in the first place, given that’s the default state of affairs of every gun grabber forum, without exception.

        See, wholly unlike you lot, we actually welcome reasoned and factual debate. You brought absolutely none of that here. None of you gun-grabbers ever do, or ever have, and that’s because you literally lack the capacity to do so. Meanwhile, we don’t summarily block any and all dissenters and delete their comments no matter how polite, contrite, and factually-accurate their reservations are.

    • More than 1/4 of the 440 comments are posted by one person. Nearly 3/4 are replies to that person. How many does it take to get inducted into the Troll Hall Of Fame?

      • 2ASux is a TTAG favorite. He usually stumbles in randomly and then punches out for a while after taking a beating from the regulars. Best part is he drives huge traffic on the site which further helps our cause. He is actually a mentally ill Brit who thinks he can change the 2A all by himself…because he is important….in his own mind. He is what we would call a professional troll. Most likely on the payroll of some anti 2A org out there.

        • I am on the payroll to support Bernie; TTAG I do as a public service, Even though you overlook that which is squarely before your face.

        • @ 2Asux — You clearly don’t even know what doing a public service entails. The only thing you’ve accomplished here is to drive more traffic to this blog and spread our message — not yours — even further.

          For that, and that alone, we would thank you.

        • @ 2Asux — I’m right on target. You either don’t yet realize it or don’t want to admit it.

      • Would you prefer I be rude and disrespectful of those who take time to address my comments? (A bit like the tactics of the so-called Left: set up a no-win situation, then punishing someone for failing to win?)

        • Much like you Bernie failed. Keep trying though. Makes for great spectator sport.

          • Bernie may not end up president, but he won the battle. Look how much more encompassing and progressive the Democrat Party has become. All these years, and it took an old man to really move the needle. Bernie has a significant campaign war chest that can be used to support the progressive movement at the state and local level. More than any predecessor accumulated or shared with field at large.

        • @ 2Asux — Bernie didn’t actually win anything. At all. Look at how much less encompassing and more reregressive the DemoKKKratik Party has become. SJWs have completely taken it over, and they are the most bigoted and intolerant people of this or any other generation to date. All these years, and all that old man has accomplished was to draw more economic illiterates, like himself, out of the woodwork to vote against their best interests. Sure, many of his complaints are valid, but his approach to addressing any of those complaints is not. In the end, only to betray all of them by saying that he’d vote for Shillary. Bernie doesn’t have nearly the shear liquid cash that Shillary has to throw around, either.

  58. Internet Troll
    In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

    • [1] extraneous, or off-topic messages

      – – what is off-topic discussing the unrelenting wave of sensible gun regulation, when the original post was about California implementing sensible controls on firearms?

      in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response

      – – entering an opinion can only be considered “provoking” is the group is close-minded and fearful of differing viewpoints

      [2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,

      – – disturbing the echo chamber?

      [3] often for their own amusement.

      – – there is nothing amusing about the danger of unfettered firearm possession in the US; nothing at all.

      Perhaps it is too difficult to discourse with a determined adversary (which would be all to the good of sensible gun regulation; stay in the bunker, remain ineffective)

      • muckadoo
        A contraction of the phrase “monkey see, monkey do.”

        A muckadoo is often known by other names such as a liberal, a leftist, or a @#$% idiot. It is a creature that uses odd and illogical behaviors and speech patterns that it copied (sometimes with small variances) from another creature – usually another muckadoo.

        They are located throughout the fifty states, though are rarer in some areas while extremely common in others. They tend to infest college campuses and often can be found online at such sites as Democratic Underground and commenting at Daily Kos.
        MUCKADOO FAQ

        Q. Can muckadoos be dangerous?

        A. Easily startled, a muckadoo is rarely of any danger. Because of the shrill sounds they make and their pungent odors, they are classified simply as a nuisance.

        Q. These muckadoos are all saying the same things. Are they really different muckadoos, or one posting under multiple names?

        A. They are different muckadoos. What you have encountered is the mimicking behavior essential to a muckadoo. When a muckadoo sees something another muckadoo does or says, that appears “clever” or entertaining to the muckadoo, it will repeat said behavior now thinking itself to be “clever” (though the repeated behavior often has no real meaning when analyzed). This mimicry of muckadoos makes it hard to distinguish them from each other, but being so involved with muckadoos as to need to be able to tell them apart is discouraged.

        Q. I see a large gathering of muckadoos yelling and waving signs. What is this?

        A. Sometimes an alpha muckadoo will organize other muckadoos into a pack that meets at a specific place. Then when this pack of muckadoos encounters certain stimuli (usually T.V. cameras), they will begin to make noise and display their colorful signs. This phenomenon is called a “protest.”

        Q. What are they protesting?

        A. Nothing. The name “protest” is a bit misleading as these muckadoo gatherings have nothing to do with protesting anything specific. Apparently, muckadoos gain great pleasure from making noise and waving signs, especially if given attention.

        Q. I noticed the muckadoo has a strong, foul smell. Is this usual?

        A. Yes. It’s their main natural defense. If it becomes too much of a problem, try spraying the muckadoo with a hose.

        Q. I sprayed the muckadoo with a hose, and he called me a “fascist.” What does that mean?

        A. Like many of the muckadoos utterances, it was something that once had a meaning, but such meaning is now lost. “Fascist” is simply a meaningless epithet used by a muckadoo to show displeasure with a person.

        Q. Should we ever be concerned with the actions of muckadoos?

        A. Though shrill and often seen on T.V., they are considered revolting by most Americans and have little effect on the country at large. Instead, they are a constant but harmless nuisance. To keep them from bothering your household, simply put out an American flag. Its bright colors tend to scare away muckadoos (though don’t question their patriotism).

        • There you go. Now I can hear you children chortling in the background, at your deft use of the language. What a prize you are.

          I can hardly wait to read “Poo, poo pants” as your crowning submission.

        • @ 2Asux — Well, there you go, yet again. Now we can hear you children chortling in the background, at your inability to debate or converse. What a prize you aren’t.

          We can hardly wait to read “xenophobe” or “ethnocentrist” as your crowning submission. Oh, and way to dodge answering his queries, too, by the way. We all know by now that you have nothing for it, anyway, so we rightly couldn’t expect a cogent answer from you.

      • 1. What is off-topic is you making knowingly irrelevant and inappclicable analogies to guns and other professions and cosumer products that are not Constitotuionally-protected or necessarily regulated in the same way.

        Oh, and there’s still nothing even remotely “sensible” in gun control laws beyond simple Common Law, either. You have yet to articulate how there even could be, and that is because you can’t. You can’t because it’s not.

        You aregue exclusively from emotion yourself, and you lot are closed-minded and fearful of differing viewpoints. If that were the case with us, which it isn’t, we would have summarily blocked you and deleted all of your comments as soon as you showed up, as happens in every single one of your gun-grabber forums, without exception.

        2. The only echo chambers to be seen are your gun-grabber forums.

        3. There is everything amusing about you knowingly and deliberately over-stating a danger that literally does not exist. There is no unfettered gun ownership in America.

        Perhaps it’s too difficult to converse with a demonstrably closed-minded and willfully pig ignorant adversary, which is all to the good of rightly opposing gun control because it’s not “sensible” at all and doesn’t work.

  59. There have been a number of comments here (back and forth) regarding my assertion that most of the mass killers in the last 10 or so years were “good guys with a gun”, until they started shooting. That is, the shooters purchased their firearms legally (“proving”, as so many like, that NICS checks do not stop crime). The pro-gun responders claim that most were “bad guys” before the shooting (“bad guy” meaning convicted of nothing, but somehow they weren’t “good guys”, regardless of background check).

    I surfed the net, looking for a source pro-gun advocates might accept as “reliable”. I found something at Breitbart: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/07/democrats-push-gun-control-80-mass-shooters-got-guns-legally/

    I also found something difficult to corrupt at NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html?_r=1

    Simplified? The majority (more than 51%) obtained guns legally, thus becoming “good guys with guns”.

    • It’s not that your sources are unreliable (though the vast majority of anti-gun sources are unreliable and most often completely debunked), is that your knowingly baseless conclusions literally cannot be drawn from said sources. The overwhelming majority of mass shooters, not only across the last decade, but going back to at least the 1980s have for a fact been mentally ill. In nearly every case, their family, friends, and colleagues had seen all of the obvious signs. They did nothing. Even when they had, the government often dropped the ball by now updating your precious background check systems, anyway.

      It’s such a concern that even Congress and the so-called Left acknowledges it, if grudgingly.

      http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/congress-eyes-mental-health-overhaul-following-mass-shootings

      Simplified enough for you? The majority may have obtained their guns legally, but that doesn’t necessarily mean — and absolutely is not at all the case regardless — that they were “good guys with guns.”

      As is usual, you’re wrong. Again. Still. More.

  60. Are comments like this explanation for the precipitous American drop in international scholarship testing, or the result?

    • You are cheap entertainment for us old bean. Keep at it. Drive the hits to TTAG.

        • I consider your retort rather bland. Marginal at best. Did you use up all your strength with witty prose last night old bean?

        • @ 2Asux — Once again speaking of and for yourself, I see. What’s rather generous is that you’re even still allowed to comment here at all, which is far more than you can ever say about your side.

    • Comments like this are actually the result of the Leftist take-over of public “education.” A similar watering down of curriculum is taking place all across the West, however.

  64. “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt . . .”
    – Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    • The natural, innate and indomitable reflex to remain alive, even a moment longer, in hope that somehow things will not get worse drives the human. This is not new. It is the factor that allows the smallest of groups to control the largest of populations; everywhere in the world.

      Solzhenitsyn had much of importance to tell us about the gulags, the regime. However, he may have underestimated the depravity of Stalin, and those like him. Stalin destroyed his massive army (which vastly outnumbered any other armed force in the country) by purging the officer corps; Operation Barbarossa almost succeeded because of it. Stalin also permitted, if not initiated, the deaths of an estimated 20 million people through starvation that resulted from his iron rule.

      As the Germans wiped-out Lidice and the Warsaw Ghetto, Stalin would have simply put more police (or whatever) on the raids to arrest whomever he chose (he was responsible for the enormous Russian casualties in Stalingrad and Leningrad). The slaughter Stalin would permit/allow/order is incomprehensible to “normal” people.

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