In the post-Parkland hysteria, President Trump directed the Department of Justice to perform some regulatory legerdemain where bump fire stocks are concerned. The ATF had long ago passed on the stocks, deeming them perfectly legal accessories for semi-automatic rifles. Now, in a Saturday morning move apparently meant to fly under the radar . . .

The U.S. Department of Justice formally submitted a regulation on Saturday to ban “bump stocks,” a modification to high-capacity rifles that lets them fire like an automatic weapon.

President Donald Trump signed a memorandum in February directing the department to make the regulatory change, which must now be approved by the Office of Management and Budget before it is published and subject to a commentary period.

Nothing to worry about though…that will never get through Congress! Au contraire, mon frere. 

The move does not require congressional approval, allowing the administration to side-step what could have been insurmountable pressure from pro-gun groups such as the National Rifle Association that have worked to erode changes in firearm laws in the wake of mass shootings in Florida and Nevada.

It’s no biggie, though. Really, now many people own, or even want a bump fire stock? This won’t affect me!

Think again. If the DOJ can use regulatory fiat to bring their ban hammer down on bump fire stocks, magically deeming them machine guns, what’s to stop this or, more likely, some future administration from deciding that “high-capacity” 30-round magazines are also unacceptable modifications that facilitate “unnecessary” rates of fire? Or lighter, drop-in triggers? Anything that could plausibly be argued to increase a gun’s “standard” rate of fire.

The NRA was on board with regulating bump fire stocks in theory, but hadn’t signed on to this particular move. This sets a terrible regulatory precedent that will almost surely be expanded and abused again down the road. Will the NRA sue? Will SAF or the GOA?

We haven’t been able to get our mitts on the new DOJ regulatory language yet, but will publish it when it’s available. Stay tuned.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

316 COMMENTS

    • Told you so!

      But be careful about smearing bumpfire across all aspects of the gun industry. You got to admit you were surprised that bump stocks weren’t immediately regulated the moment they hit the market.

      So, a word of advice…we can lose the war so pick your battles carefully and don’t die on bumpfire hill.

      • The audacity, to this one’s knowledge Flinch has never told him anything. Let alone something that could be considered an aphorism.

        There is no slippery slope, but rather a cliff. Capitulation will take one right off that cliff.
        This isn’t some Wile E. Coyote cartoon.

        • Wow, you guys have gone right past the slippery slope fallacy and made up the cliff fallacy. Kudos.

        • Hannibal, what fallacy? Are you saying the gun grabbers are going to be satisfied by this result and quit pushing for their final goal – total civilian disarmament? Don’t you think they will be encouraged by this success, to scream for more and further reaching infringements on our 2A rights?

        • “Wow, you guys have gone right past the slippery slope fallacy and made up the cliff fallacy. Kudos.”

          The cliff is currently irrelevant as the ledge is above. 2nd Amendment proponents have been in free fall since 1934. Don’t trust an ACME parachute, happy landing Mr. Magoo.

      • There are no loopholes in law; things are legal, or illegal. Otherwise we don’t know what is allowed. Bumps were legal under NFA. Now they are not under ATF.

        Yet no law has been passed to that effect.

        Next time any of you think about off-hand bump fire or even just doing a mag dump for fun, consider you may as well build an illegal DIAS for an even better time, with no additional risk.

        • I’m thinking the not civilian disarmament folks need to maybe talk about this right here in terms of “common sense gun laws.” The anti-anti-crowd has been showing up unarmed to a propaganda war for too long. (Sing it with me: “Sometimes when we touch, the irony’s too much…”)

          “barnbwt says:

          There are no loopholes in law; things are legal, or illegal. Otherwise we don’t know what is allowed. Bumps were legal under NFA. Now they are not under ATF.

          Yet no law has been passed…”

          The not anti-gun folks need to build on this … er, what to call it, it’s a kind of pronouncement about the world… um, the weird kind nobody talks about… not “opinion”… um, not “policy”… er, not “position”… ah, not “assertion”… hm, not “conclusions”…

          Fact. That’s the word. Fact.

          We need a crisp, crafted snark-bite for each of the nonsense weaselings the “punish people who didn’t do anything” crowd will come up with. That would be a good use of NRA, 2AF, or similar organization effort: make the memes. This is a propaganda war. Be armed to respond in that, too.

          Each beat here needs a better turn of phrase. Imagine Bill Mahr “interviewing” some WrongThink not-anti-gunner. Each beat here needs a better turn of phrase, making essentially the same point. That’s kinda the point: these things that get traction are *crafted*. We know what’s coming. How about we be a little crafty?

          Screeching angst-banshees: “Something must be done! Common sense! Laws!”

          POTG: “Hey I’m all for common sense laws, like not that bump-fire nonsense. That was madness.”

          Bloomie-bot: “Common sense! Too long to ban! Why not banned before?!! Bad, bad, evil, those people!”

          POTG: “Indeed, why not banned before? I mean laws built with common sense. Clear, precise, on-point. The ‘machine gun’ parts of our federal gun law obviously weren’t that. We need to do better, meaning saying what we mean.”

          Less Is More As Long As It’s You: “Bump stocks were illegal, and we had them for years! Las Vegas!”

          POTG: “If they were illegal, how’d the ATF let them slide for so long? If they weren’t, how’s the DOJ declare them illegal by fiat. Hey, after LV, the NRA asked the ATF to clarify this, so we know if we need to refine the law, or the enforcement. Nothing happened.”

          Against Only Some Violence: “Bullet-hoses! Nobody ‘needs’ a rat-a-tat-tat-tat! Also phallic substitutes, and (you) defective people!”

          POTG: “Indeed. DOJ declarations are a poor approach. With that crappy law, what’s to stop somebody clever from coming up with another shoot-fast thingie that the ATF can’t figure out is banned? Government by proclamation is bad, right? Do we really want to depend on getting the attention of Donald of Orange?” Or would you rather talk about what the ATF was doing when they could have been doing something about this?

          No Guns for You: “Ban all the things! No guns for you!”

          POTG: “Well, Sen DiFi has said that. Make your case. You may think it’s ‘common sense’ but a whole lot of people disagree with that one. If you want to get rid of auto-fire extensions (and if a ‘bump fire’ stock counts), say that right, in the law: you’ll get a lot more agreement. Vast hordes of folks are bugged by what else got Trojan-horsed into the law, especially law written by “Nobody needs a gun.” types.

          Dumb and Dumber: “It’s obvious! Common sense! Distraction, side-issue, whatabout-ism!”

          POTG: “The last change proposed to federal law to address ”bump fire’ said anything that would increase the rate of fire. So, lever, pump and bolt actions, maybe cartridges vs. muzzle loaders, and even flint & cap locks. Nobody needs anything but a muzzle-loading match lock! Yr peeps have said that. It’s no wonder nobody trusts that ‘Nobody wants to take your guns away.’ More like ‘We really want to take everybody’s guns away, all of them, and we’ll sneak in whatever we can get away with on the backs of dead kids.'”

          Punish You for What They Did: “You’re being ridiculous!”

          POTG: “Really? Bump fire ban, now, because that whack-job shot up a school with … wait, not a bump fire anything? Looks like ‘Ban all the things!’ opportunism to me. What would you call it?”

          Motte & Bailey Is My Life: “You’re exaggerating! Crap weasel!”

          POTG: “Actually, I’m quoting your peeps, and their proposals. How about let’s get serious, and carefully craft a law that prohibits the ridiculous stuff, without punishing a few million people who’ve never done anything wrong. Unless that’s the point?”

      • The original version was legal, than not legal, then they took out a spring at it was legal. When you operate, what exactly is the trigger? In slide fire’s online manual of arms the gun is fired by forward pressure. At a very least the recoil energy of the rifle assists with the action of the trigger. If you put on a butt pad so you can put in the spring, you are back to a machine gun, so readily convertible applies.

        It’s the same mess as a Sig Brace, but a sig brace did not help with shooting 420 people. A Sig Brace does not facilitate a 100 round mag dump in 12 seconds..

        All those are the facts. Now why it may not be the best idea in the world to unregulate machine guns is a different discussion. Personally I think they should be legalized fully, But given lethal potential, I don’t think they ever will.

        • None of that is relevant. The legal definition of “machine gun” is firing more than one round per single function of the trigger. Spring, no spring, finger rest, recoil-assisted reset, whatever, the gun fires one time and only one time each time the shooter’s finger pulls the trigger back. IT’S NOT A MACHINE GUN. There’s no law relating to maximum semi-automatic rate of fire.

        • The original version was legal, than not legal, then they took out a spring at it was legal. Let me translate if for you, I was such a Rube Goldberg contraption, no one knew what it was. But here is the one big distinction of the slide fire sock, vs traditional “bump firing”. The stock keeps your finger from staying on the trigger. The slide fire’s interface block is the big difference. When you bump fire without the sock you are required to hold your finger ridged and you are effectively slapping the trigger.

        • Honesty I have no idea how in the world they got the original Akins Accelerator 2 past the ATF. All they did was take out a spring that ANYONE can put back in (readily convertible back applies). Well at this rate, someone will be running a gas tube to the back of the trigger next.

    • What changed since the ATF decided bump stocks were not machine guns? Nothing but public opinion. Nothing to stop them from reclassifying triggers, magazines, muzzle devices or anything else they target since automatic now means semi-automatic.

      • You are so right. Once regulators taste blood in the water they will not stop,…. Remember cigarettes, sugary drinks, fatty foods nanny state stupidity. It is a slippery slope, all down hill to banning binary triggers, ugly black guns, ungly fde guns scary magazines. THis is the hill we stand and fight on.

      • Stephen Paddock. That’s what happened. This is why we can’t have nice things…

        • Hey, don’t blame the patsy. We don’t know that he did anything at all, let alone shoot all those people!

          The only evidence we know is that he turned up dead, after having shot himself in the chest and then through the mouth- or did he do it the other way around? Nobody knows, or if they do they aren’t saying. What gun did he use? We don’t know that either. How many guns there had actually been fired? Oh, that doesn’t matter. Also immaterial is where all that brass went; the brass that we didn’t see any pictures of, since it wasn’t there. Or was it?

          This whole affair is one big lie, and we really do not know anything about what happened. All I’m sure of is that the LVMPD, the FBI and all the media are lying through their teeth. Whatever the story is, they don’t want us to know!

          But since now bump stocks are arbitrarily illegal, courtesy of the ATF, I guess so are belt loops- that’s how I first tried out bump firing (it can also be done with a piece of string or a rubber band, shhh! Don’t tell the ATF.) Banning a novelty will accomplish nothing, but to whoever’s pushing this pack of lies, it’s at least a small victory.

      • And semi-automatic actually means repeating. WaPo has confused revolvers as DA semi-autos, and we’ve all seen Australia ban pump shotguns.

        • Somebody at WaPo must’ve got ahold of a Mateba Sei Unica. Either that, or they’re full of shit.

      • What changed since the ATF decided bump stocks WERE machine guns. I know, they took out a spring that was not really needed, and they ended up working better.

      • What changed since the ATF decided bump stocks were not machine guns? Nothing but SOME public opinion.

        • The 420 people shot had nothing to do with it? He could have easily gotten off another 2000 rounds if he was not messing around with shooting the fuel tanks

        • If only muder were illegal, right? Its easier to manufacture a machinegun than make a bumpfire weapon do what you want to do AND aim/track moving targets or groups of people. The guy was a millionaire. If he didn’t have access to bump fire stocks and a mountain of ammo to practice with, he would have just made a machinegun. The guy planned this for a long time. A stupid bump fire ban wouldn’t have stopped him from shooting 420 people.

          The only reason he picked that specific place was due to the proximity of a large penned in group of people next to a massive tank of flamable liquid. Its almost like shooting the crowd was a fall back plan because his primary plan failed.

    • The NRA’s basic strategy remains sound. Policies, even those coming from the president, can be changed. Laws enacted by congress become institutionalized and are almost impossible to change.

      • Policies made by the Pres can be changed rather easily, you say? How’s that illegal DACA program that Bammy signed working out? Still going, even though Trump has tried, and failed, to end it, because of judges legislating from the bench.

      • So your telling me that soon I can get my Chinese copy of a SVD, freshly imported vepr rifle, and steel core 5.45x39mm ammo. Praise be to John Moses Browning.

  2. Do you want to lose in 2020, Trump? Because this is how you lose in 2020.

    And once again: no one in any capacity within the executive branch of the federal government has the statutory authority to “classify” bump fire stocks as a “machine gun” under federal statute. The definition is explicitly clear: one round per each pull of the trigger = not a “machine gun.”

    • I will NEVER vote for Trump again. Cruz in 2020. And I don’t give a damn about bumpstocks…is there any REAL proof of what happened in Vegas?!?

      • 10/1 happened. The details surronding it are the mystery. Still waiting on Metro and/or the FBI reports saying a bump stock *was* used though… or *any* report in fact…

          • I have to say the room looked pretty clean for a confined space where numerous cops swarmed the shooter. Where was the shooter when neutralized? Where is the blood from the ND, and from the body of the shooter? Cops do not encourage trust when they sanitize a shooting scene, and then photograph the location.

            On a related note, why is it we still have no information about why an LV cop shot a woman standing next to the police car, talking to the driver. An investigation of a simple event takes this long????

        • Nice link, Jeremy.🙄 It does not contain the report from Metro saying what was utilized. That is an evidence recovery log, nothing else. Metro has not realeased ANY new information on the events of that night. They only released coroners’ reports when they were under court orders to do so. So, no, no official statements one way or they other. Lots of mystery, including the curious list and configurations of recovered arms at the crime scene.

    • Yep. I was just about convinced to vote for him next go round. He’s gonna have some serious ‘splainin’ to do if he wants it now.

    • You are correct. Don’t budge, hold the line. Never give in the the liberals, they will hate him always,… always not matter what he does.

    • Correct, only congress can make law.
      Perhaps president Trump thinks all his resistance voters will carry the day for him,Primary Him.

    • Too late, Trump’s already lost. Hopefully his stupidity doesn’t take congress with him.

      Our best future is an unprecedentedly savage rebuke to him and his fellow travelers at the polls. Even if it means a Dem president and divided congress, since Obama showed us that combo is not as threatening as a unified government of traitors.

      Hopefully the outrage at the NRA in a month is near riot levels, and LaPierre, Hammer, and the other useless dupes in power now are literally pulled from their podiums and thrown out into the street.

      • NRA members refuse to pay attention to what the NRA does. There hasn’t been a single major gun control law that has passed without the NRA supporting it. They are our enemy, not our ally.

      • “Hopefully the outrage at the NRA in a month is near riot levels, and LaPierre, Hammer, and the other useless dupes in power now are literally pulled from their podiums and thrown out into the street.”

        Really? By whom?

        The NRA is a microcosm of the US political system: protection racket for the anointed ones. The NRA is about the NRA. Guns are just the chosen skirt to hide it all. The prime directive of the NRA (as with any organization) is to survive as an organization.

      • “Our best future is an unprecedentedly savage rebuke”

        LOL, what do you think TRUMP was?

        Trump wins again in 2020 even if he screws us on this. There’s just nobody better, and that’s sad (I support him but never thought he was the second coming).

        • Yeah, I’m still voting for Trump again in 2020. This is an utterly stupid bill, but we have no other alternative.

          That said, I’m not renewing with the NRA. They should have known better by now.

  3. Well, the spark is lit. The question is, how long is that fuse before it gets to the powder keg?

        • Damn Eric Holder and his expansion of this department….. can’t go no where without havin to worry bout some new kid rattin me out saying I’m really pro gun….. F*ckin Dick…. Probably gonna get fired now and have to go talk to Jeff, I hate talkin to Jeff he drools and sometimes his dentures fall rather go deal with Mattis at least he’ll have the courtesy to not make me watch Power Points….

  4. So does that mean they are going to open up the MG registry to allow people who bought them legally to register them? I thought the AG has the power to declare an amnesty.

    I am not holding my breath.

    • Or just go straight to jail, do not collect $200? 10 years and 100,000 dollars? Thanks Trump, Sessions, NRA. I think after Vegas they thought this would placate the antis, but instead it has emboldened them. Your enemies don’t want your border town. They want to destroy you and take your capital city. Withdrawing and surrendering won’t work unless you truly have a blistering counter attack planned. I don’t think there is a decisive, smashing victory planned, I think this is just “circle the wagons, we are surrounded, hope we survive the night.”

      What else could we ban? All diesel trucks are hereby banned, you know, for the environment!

      • The are working on banning human driven vehicles. They want self driving vehicles or government employee operated vehicles. Similar to “smart” guns.

        That’s not a joke.

        • “The are working on banning human driven vehicles.”

          He’s right on that.

          Mercedes announced a self-driving car that has no steering wheel.

          None.

          The upside is, drunks will now be free to get home from the bar plastered without doing the ‘balance on one foot and touch the tip of your nose with your eyes closed’ dance. No speeding tickets. Ect, ect…

    • Excellent question. I have a few of the Slide Fires and they do not make a semi-auto a machine gun. Just like a black gun is not necessarily an assault rifle. But liberals are all feelings and emotions,… like a child with no maturity of mind. So these scary stocks need to be illegal because they make these scary guns into some kind of super gun. What next? Are they going to go after Gatling guns? Never give into stupid.

      • Now if they want to tax them, it will kill the companies that make them since $200 and a year in NFA jail is too much for many of us. But if they grandfather the stocks it will also be messy and uncertain as to how to do the NFA class3 checks. I do believe this is a whole can of worms.

        • Spot on Gordon. A great big can of worms.
          I would love to see the whole registry opened up to another amnesty period.
          I can only imagine how many viet nam and other war relics come out of closets and attics.

      • So you can shoot 500 RPM without one. You can do a 12 second 100 round mag dump? Can you keep that up for a 1000 rounds? If so, why did you bother buying one?

  5. realistically it should fail because the DOJ is not given the power to define what constitutes a machine gun not is the ATF that was defined long ago by Congress.

    But in the world we live in this will go into the regs because, GUNZ and it helps solidify the power of our glorious leaders in DC. Long as they get the power they want we get to continue to walk around and say we’re free.

    • It should fail because the purpose of the 2nd amendment was to make clear that the only two powers delegated to the federal government, that could possibly used to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms, the power to regulate interstate commerce and the power to tax, were not to be used to infringe upon the right. It means that there can be no lawful tax on arms and no restriction on the right to keep and bear tghem.

  6. So, yes, let us continue to vote Republicrat. Based on this report, POTG are “winning”.

  7. it’s ok guys, we’ll get national reciprocity and suppressors removed from the NFA any day now

  9. Gawd…and last year I was cautiously optimistic that we would be celebrating national reciprocity and suppressors for all in 2018. Now we’re teetering on losing semi-autos. Well, really, full confiscation will be the next shoe to drop.

    • “Well, really, full confiscation will be the next shoe to drop.”

      Nah, fedzilla will implement universal registration next and then go to confiscation. After all, they have to be sure that they confiscated all the firearms, right?

    • I was waiting to buy a suppressor until legislation passed but pulled the trigger when it stalled. Now my can is in NFA jail for a year. I really want one for personal defense. Have you ever shot a gun inside a house? It is enough to stun ones senses.

      • I was a dumb cookie and went through a plenty of shoot houses without hearing protection. I recently shot a .308 from a window at a pest animal and I didn’t expect it to blow the whole damn screen off, bent the frame and everything. Shooting inside isn’t THAT bad.

    • Their “universal background check” idea is actually gun registration/tracking. They want to make a computer based system to track who owns what and where they store them. They would love to know what type of cops to send to your house when they take the guns first and do the due process second.

      If you buy more than one gun in a short period of time, or buy ammo in bulk, you will be flagged for a list. If you have any NFA items, the Feds can simply pay you a visit.

  10. If they think we’ll bother with wasting time with law suits over this, they’re wrong. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is more likely on the house cleaning agenda.

    • They are counting on the fact that Americans won’t go to war over this OR a ban on semi-autos OR any other regulation they wish to impose by fiat on their comfortable tax slaves.

      And they will probably be proven right.

        • Short of forming an army of heavily armed men, thousands strong and overthrowing the current govt, what are you gonna do to change things? UH? C’mon, let me hear your solution? Vote? Are you shittin me? Its over man. The country we grew up in is GONE!

          I’ll be waitin to hear your solid solution. You’ve heard mine. We don’t even speak to each other in our neighborhoods, how are we gonna form an army to take the govt back? I read all this shit all the time and never once get a call to ask how the fuck I’m doin. As a human fucking being. What kind of fighting buddies would we make then? You ain’t got a fuckin plan. You ain’t ready to sacrifice and die in combat. You just want to hurry up and retire so you can just punch the fuck out! You would leave the fighting and dying to others..

          Did you know that only 3 mf’ing % of colonials were active in our own revolution? Only 3% were actually willing to stick their necks out against the crown. I’d say its a lot less than that now.

          How many of these weasels out there, especially the young are gonna RISK ANYTHING to regain our freedoms?

          FWIW, I’ve emailed my senators a million times on this issue. I always get the same old canned letter back saying how much they appreciate it, blah, blah, blah.

          I’m on your side dude, I’m just being realistic. Its over.

        • Love how people talk about it like it’s already a lost cause. Like the means of righting the ship (and going against one’s government to do it) would be like screwing a hawser hole on the Coast Guard’s biggest ice breaker.

          “Gov’t” (no matter where on this Fing rock that you find one) is wholly made up of just your stupid ahole neighbors who needed a job. Fing living things (I’ll reserve the names “people” and “humans” while also attesting to the fact that [again] nowhere on this fing rock that we call Earth are humans governed by animals, robots, or [space] aliens). Those ahole neighbors all gotta have food and water, and they all gotta sleep someplace. Further they derive their authority from the ‘governed’. Those MFs (the ‘governed’) also eat/drink/sleep someplace.

          Thankfully, the true / biggest problem elements like to bunch themselves up into already fractious and festering enclaves of evil POS and stupid. And (in the U.S.). . .
          EVERY FOUR YEARS, SOME DUMBASS MFs ARE NICE ENOUGH TO PRINT A MAP OF THEIR WHEREABOUTS.

          http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/11/report-donald-trump-to-hang-portrait-of-electoral-college-landslide-in-white-house/

          “Thousands” of people? Bull shit. Six people with 72 hours, and there’s not a state in our great “union” that wouldn’t be eating its own ass. One person would need ~ 3 weeks, if you counted time for smoke breaks and laundry. The nicest / worst part is, you can make the government do a lot of it, compounding the number of people applying pressure on your side (both ways). Think GVRO’s are just for individuals? You can swat a whole fing state more easily. Think there’s a place for them to hide? Not unless they have a cab waiting at the curb to take them somewhere else in the solar system.

          England heavily discounted Americans too.

          AND, either way, if I don’t form-up on you with you already at point, you and yours are on your own. Don’t try to come late to that party. Too many Tories made it unscathed through the last one, obviously.

      • “And they will probably be proven right.”

        Already have been.

        Waco
        Ruby Ridge
        Bundy 1

        Sit back and enjoy the ride. Destination is confirmed, roadway cleared. Elevator music in the background. What’s not to like?

      • Americans will never go to war. There is too few actual Americans living in America. There might be a few hundred that will do some random unorganized attacks, but no one will support them and once they are defeated with a quick death the others will turn in their guns in order to survive as a slave. It eventually happened to the indigenous Americans and it happened instantly with black Americans. Now it’s time for the white Americans to go through the same thing.

        White America has already lost their fighting spirit and play victim status while they sit on their asses complaining. The opposition is too strong, too active, too relentless, too young, too smart, too popular, too well funded, too effective, to be defeated by a bunch of lazy old guys that rely on others. That’s the reality white America has created for themselves by not finding allies from outside their bubble and not maintaining the liberty culture.

        Your government “schools” have changed the culture and pit your children against you like they were designed to.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opbxnuw0Dw0&t=35m30s

  11. Welcome to CA. But don’t worry. If you’re unhappy you can just move.

    • It still sucks more in your state of choice.Those in freer states have just gotten brushed by the molester(s) but Californians have been swallowing load after load for years now;-)

      • Why you gotta bring every single actress into the argument? Sure some probably did it against their will but they still did it to advance their career and many more hopped on that casting couch as fast as Harvey could unzip his Armani trousers.

        Wait was that a shot at the porn industry too? Crap I don’t know who to be offended for…

      • Because Californians keep voting for it in every election. Free states don’t vote for that shit, that’s the difference. People in free states are being molested, people in liberal states openly consent and literally ask their politicians to hurt them.

        • Pubes. The ATF isn’t a state level agency. It’s Federal. Keep fighting the local battle when our enemies are fighting at the Federal level. You’ll enjoy the national AWB ban, 10 round mag limits, etc. All permanent.

          I warned people years ago and several times since.

          If you want to defeat gun control in this country you have to defeat CA. You guys that run and hide in your ‘free’ states(no such animal exists with the feds overall) are just making it easier for the bad guys to win.

        • You must not know that California raises such people through their school system. Then those people move out of California to infect the rest of the country. Look at Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Nevada, Florida and Texas. You are not safe in your bubble world.

          The Alt Right think they can fix their problems by getting rid of all the Asians and Africans. They refuse to acknowledge that it’s the Europeans that are ruining the country and those white people are manipulating the minorities to increase their effectiveness. There hasn’t been enough Africans and Asians in the country to change the culture naturally, the transformation has been coming from within, outsiders are not the root cause.

          If you want America to survive you have to get the minorities and women on your side. Also, have a lot of children with the right person and educate them through private schools or home school. You can’t win a physical war at this point because the culture you want to permeate isn’t favored anymore. There has to be a constant political offensive just to ward off the encroachment because compromise is not a winning strategy, it’s a slow death.

        • While the POTG, among others, in freer states are trying to beat CA, every resident of California makes it stronger. JWM you get counted as a full person(not just 3/5ths) for the purpose of allocating electoral votes and districting. You also pay the taxes that fuel the California political machine. Other things are more important to you, I get that, and that is your right to decide. I don’t hold it against you, but I do think it needs to pointed out when you deflect about the issue and imply that POTG in other states have abandoned you. I used to live in CA too, but I finally got sick of being a victim and got out.

        • Nevada is still quite close and is a contested state. California POTG wouldn’t be wasting their votes there and would still be in driving distance to visit family. Southerners have Arizona right across the border where there money and residence wouldn’t support the progressives. Think about it this way California POTG, how much money have you given that progressive machine?

        • Vic. Moving out of CA solves nothing. They just move another dozen illegals in my place and let them vote. How you think hillary topped trump in the popular vote? It was CA.

          Ceding a large chunk of America to a foreign invasion is not saving Americans rights.

          • “Ceding a large chunk of America to a foreign invasion is not saving Americans rights.”

            Think it through.

            The current population of Californication exceeds the POTG and all the conservative votes in the entire state. Illegal immigration is not going to stop (I suspect the Californication government would create an official government-sponsored agency of Coyotes to ensure the flow never stops). We must assume that there will be no wave of POTG and/or conservative voters overrunning the state. Therefore, the number of crazies in Californication will continue to increase, unabated. How, pray tell, will the dwindling ratio of POTG and conservatives be able to do anything to turn the situation by dying like the Spartans?

            Consolidate the forces for good where they can control outcomes.

        • Sam. The CA population increases faster than the legal American POTG can influence by concentrating in any other state.

          Always remember. Illegals are being issued state id and drivers licenses in CA. A sanctuary state. And they are voting. The population increase will affect CA’s standing for electoral votes at the federal level.

          Simply uprooting your family and running does nothing.

          I will say it again. Give up CA and you give up America. Texas is rapidly going blue because of the shifting demographics. If we keep running we will face a Federal .gov controlled by blue states and no amount of ‘states rights’ will help us.

          • “Simply uprooting your family and running does nothing.”

            And staying accomplishes what?

            Californication is not the US. “Losing” that state is a proposition that is oxymoronic. The state is already “lost”, and there is no effective way to fight the contagion by staying inside the borders. The effective way is to move to states that can stem the spread by being hostile to Californication ideas and ideals.

            But I am interested in how you see remaining in the state, and being overwhelmed by the insanity is a prudent though ineffective choice to make.

            All in all, it is about salesmanship. If there is not enough obvious and attractive benefit to moving into Californication, what is the benefit of staying?

        • CA is the US. As is Arizona, Nevada. You know, the 57 states. Giving any of that up is wrong. Especially giving it up to illegals trying to do to us what we did to the Indians.

          And I have family here. Grandkids. I’m not willing to give up any of my nation.

          • “I’m not willing to give up any of my nation.”

            Move to a free state; stop the virus where it is. Protect your family. They are at daily risk. They will have every right to blame you for not taking care to ensure they are not overwhelmed by a foreign nation.

            There is never going to be a turnaround.

  12. The Hill, hardly a bastion of right wing thought, pointed this out this very morning:

    “The proposed rule next has to be approved by the Office of Management and Budget as part of the regulatory review process. ATF also has to submit an analysis and evaluate public comments on regulating the devices. The review process will likely take months.”

    So, as of now there is no ban and if there is to be one it’s after the ATF, OMB and public get to weigh in.

    • Oh, so after ignoring both the law and our voices, NOW Trump is gonna listen. POTUS has made a point of making this ban happen because he’s ignorant of guns and rapid fire scares him.

      • @ barnbwt commented on BREAKING: DOJ Reclassifies Bump Fire Stocks as Machine Guns.

        ” POTUS has made a point of making this ban happen because he’s ignorant of guns and rapid fire scares him.”

        Not to mention ignorant of the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

      • “Oh, so after ignoring both the law and our voices, NOW Trump is gonna listen.”

        Did I say that? No. Did I even mention Mr. Trump in my comment? No.

        I didn’t say I was happy about any of this but I’m getting a bit tired of the screeching about Trump when he’s not even mentioned. If you want to know my feelings on the overall topic see my other comment (below I think) about Mr. Sessions and how this is way, way bigger than bump stocks.

        My point here simply was that saying “The DOJ reclassified bump stocks as MG’s!” isn’t actually the case. No ban is in place and, if there is to be one, it won’t be for awhile. As of right now there is no reason to set your hair on fire and run around screaming about bump stocks. There is however great reason to be concerned about the attempted Executive power grab here and also good reason, IMHO, at this point to flat out fire Mr. Sessions since he has now proven he is not the “law and order” guy he professes to be.

        If you’re going to be ticked at Trump it should be for not firing Mr. Sessions who’s trying to turn this country into a 3rd world shithole. This is now much larger, again IMHO, than the 2A.

        • The 2nd Amendment is the most important part of survival — the survival of oneself and the survival of the country. Without a modern rifle in your hand, the government will stomp you to death without a care. A teenager can strike fear into the government if he has a rifle and is willing to use it. Regardless of what the government wants, they can’t have it all when the 2nd Amendment is still in effect enough to keep modern tools in the hands of the people. Once they degrade the human right of self preservation and self determination to their liking, they will then move on to making America a true shithole like Mexico.

          Rapid fire, magazine capacity, age limits, etc, are all very significant in the grand scheme. They will be happy if they can erode things to the point of making firearms more like airsoft/pellet guns. Ownership of an effective tool will send you to the cage for life, thus you will only have the choice of death or slavery if you can’t retain what people think is trivial. All the other things can be recovered, but returning the right to keep and bear arms will require an army and the split of the nation.

        • CZ:

          With all due respect, that’s bullshit. An educated and well informed citizenry that is engaged in honest, open public discourse, has a reasonable understanding of public policy (and logic) and cares deeply about civic outcomes is the best defense this country has because with such a weapon at our disposal the need for force of arms never comes up.

          Everyone from Edward Bulwer-Lytton to Lenin has understood this.

          Why do you think the Left went after education before they really started in earnest going after the 2A? Hint: One’s a bigger threat than the other.

        • with all due respect, that is “bogus baloney”;
          the left’s “march through the institutions” was a long-term, 30+ yr programme;
          that cannot be reversed over-night…not even with the interwebs;
          (why do you think that most “social media” is, now, almost as heavily censored as the old, main-stream media was “back in the day” … ? …. its now getting almost as hard to ‘put up’ an anti-Establishment video on YouTube as it used to be to get a letter to the editor published in a major, metropolitan daily news-paper)

    • We need to raise an even bigger stink about this than we did with M855 when it comes time for public comment.

  14. Well as Tim Harmsen says, the NRA has two factions: the compromising side and the no-compromise side. The NRA is run by the compromisers. And Donald Trump listens to the NRA.

    • Fuck that nerd. He effectively lobbied against national reciprocity over Fix NICS. He is harming us.

      • Tim is no compromise as am I. He is not hurting us. We are hurting us by arguing over what is “justified” by the 2A and not realizing that it all is. Constitutional carry, deregulation and repeal of the NFA, and repeal of anti gun laws in freedom hating states must be our goal.

        • And he calls his Sig Braced pistols the NFA nutkicker. Sounds like he thinks they are just a loophole.

        • Whether Trump is playing 8 dimensional chess, or simply being a New Yorker, it doesn’t really matter because he is saying anti American/liberty stuff in front of the entire world. So regardless if he outplays his opponent he loses to the audience, as he played a flawed strategy in this particular game. The words that come out of his mouth have significant impact and they will not diminish. Everything he says out in public will change the direction of many things like an opinion/ruling from a judge has magical powers to rewrite law.

          I don’t mind someone playing mind games as long as they know that every move will have a consequence and they make sure that their moves will not do harm in future games. Unfortunately, Trump only knows how to do one tactic.

        • In the meantime, your all-or-nothing approach is losing ground to reactionary, piecemeal legislation every time a mass shooting occurs.

          Your long game sucks, and Tim is a retard.

          • “In the meantime, your all-or-nothing approach is losing ground to reactionary, piecemeal legislation every time a mass shooting occurs.”

            I, for one, would be quite interested in your thoughts on what an effective less than “all-or-nothing” approach would look like. Also, where would your draw the line on a less than “all-or-nothing” approach? That is, at what point would you declare, “enough is enough; not one inch further”?

  15. Trump’s 7-D chess is just too high level for us peons to understand…

    Trump will turn this around and all gun laws will be declared null and void…you’ll see…

    #MAGA

    • Would they rather Hillary? These cuckolds are panicking over a nothingburger, the comment period hasn’t even started. Kek bless.

      • Neither. Nobody in a position of power is your friend. Trump was the absolute closest anyone has ever (or sadly, will ever again) been to a “real person” as POTUS. They take their marching orders from those much higher up, and the higher ups want their feudal system back.

        The whole reshuffling of the map of Europe from 1215 down to 1815 was a restructuring of the power system. Nothing much changed, except for a consolidation of certain power blocs of the families of the old Roman Empire (which absolutely never went away, just spread out and formed franchises in then-satellite states).

        The 20th century was a wrap on this reconsolidation. NWOW-1 and NWOW-2 were the final bits of icing on the cake, destroying the only obstacles to where we are now.

        So whenever you celebrate victory in “The Great War” and “The Last Just War,” realize you are celebrating all those things you see that you puport to be against.

        Because you and your fathers and grandfathers were not only complicit, you directly facilitated it.

        It would be funny if it wasn’t so horrible

  16. Trump needs to be primaried. The problem isn’t necessarily that he’s a gun grabber, it’s that he has no beliefs about anything. Instead, he just wants to win whatever the political moment is at the time. If that means going in front of the NRA and telling gun owners what we want to hear, fine. If that means later stabbing us in the back, fine. It’s not like he cares about any of this stuff personally. And it’s not just the Second Amendment either. Trump was willing to throw away the Fifth in a heartbeat as well.

    Get somebody in there who actually believes in these things and will withstand the pressure when it comes. We all know a Democrat wouldn’t be better, so the only solution is to nominate someone else in 2020.

    • You sure of that? The NRA has been against civilian machineguns from the beginning, and floated this whole “semi-auto that is ‘too fast’ is full auto” idea after Vegas last year, just before Trump started pushing ATF to exceed their authority & ban it.

      • The NRA is not stupid. They know what a nutcase can do with a machine gun, and the harm it can do to the second amendment. Just think what would happen if someone opened up on a crowd with a M60. How long before AFT goons were kicking down the door of everyone who they thought owned a machine gun with 98% of Americans cheering them on.

        • The NRA is not stupid. They know what a nutcase can do with a machine gun, and the harm it can do to the second amendment. Just think what would happen if someone opened up on a crowd with a AR-15. How long before AFT goons were kicking down the door of everyone who they thought owned a machine gun with 98% of Americans cheering them on.

          Welcome to current day.

  19. No bump stocks for the peasants but machine guns and missles for communist and Islamic rebels in Syria

  20. Personally, I think banning of bump stocks would be a good thing. It would take away a claim the anti’s have about a “loophole” regarding automatic fire weapons and allow gun rights people to point out that automatic fire weapons are already highly restricted without having to worry about a comeback about bump stocks.

    The problems with banning them are twofold though:

    1) Make sure only bump stocks are banned and not any and all devices related to making the gun easier to fire

    2) Anti’s will see it as a caving and demand more

      • I don’t really agree with Kyle’s point in principle, but can’t our side at least keep it respectful when exchanging ideas? I assume you would like him to take a more freedom oriented views of our rights but is calling him an idiot helping that cause?

        • “…but can’t our side at least keep it respectful when exchanging ideas?”

          You have stumbled into a forum for the Taliban. If you don’t believe what I believe then you deserve to die. If you do not perfectly agree with my version of what is true, legal, right, wrong, ESAD. If you disagree with me, you are the problem, and should have all your rights terminated. If you expect orderly, rational, reasoned debate, well…..yuk, yuk, yuk, you indee rong place, mon.

          Get it?
          Got it?
          Good.

    • Here we see someone who;
      1) Has no idea how bump fire works
      2) Has no idea how semi-auto works
      3) Has no idea how full-auto works

      And how they are similar, or different. Number 2&3 have a lot more in common than 1&2. You also can’t ban any of them (including #3) without ultimately banning all of them, as well as some manual repeaters.

      • Here we see someone who who never read the original rulings on the Akins Accelerator. Who doesn’t understand that the recoil energy is being used to manipulate the trigger.

        Even “machine guns” have different actions an operating principles. An electrically powered Gatling gun is a machine gun, where a manually powered one is not.

        A semi auto rifle with a powered trigger is a machine gun. If you don’t believe me, put a drill on a GatCrank and post the video on Youtube. The fun part is when half of the “one action of the trigger” is powered by the recoil. Don’t have that issue with a typical semi auto, now do you?

        • So where do I put the battery’s or the plug for extension cord in to the bump stock?

          Because if a manually operated Gatling gun is not a machine gun, neither is a bump stock equipped AR-15. Both are manually operated.

  21. Trump fan boys will defend it. Oh, how they’ll holler when the next thing on the bureaucratic chopping block is a standard capacity mag or semi auto rifle.

    Here’s how this works, come 2020, all you gonna get is more “gun control”. Then, Cheetoh will say he’ll “save our 2nd amendment” from whatever trash is running for Democrat. I for one, will NOT vote for Trump. Done with the compromise. Let’s get this candle lit for God’s sake.

    • Wise move; in an alternate reality, Prez Hillary would be getting stymied by a ‘brave’ Republican congress on gun control, and HPA & Reciprocity *still* wouldn’t be getting a vote.

  22. This is too bad. I was really hoping to be able to vote in the next presidential election. I’ll stay home like many betrayed gun owners, we will get a rabid leftiy in the white house, and the way things are going maybe a messy civil war. So be it.

    • People that can’t be bothered to vote won’t be bothered to show up for a civil war.

        • Mark- Ted couldn’t have won… Sorry bud. Rand is great, but once again couldn’t have won. Pence… Yeah I don’t think he would win either. Not saying I wouldn’t have voted for them. I just don’t see them winning ever.

        • Why do people think Ted Cruz couldn’t have won? This is bizarre to me. Clinton ran one of the worst campaigns in history. Suddenly against Cruz she’d be a genius?

      • Well history says you are wrong on that one, but then again blacks couldn’t vote the last time around. So we have three options? Vote for someone(R) who has sold us out on guns, vote for someone (D) that will sell us out on everything and probably create a strong resistance by being a terrible Marxist, or vote third party/don’t vote. At least if we have a (D) in the white house trying to kill us we will have a lot more people willing to fight tyranny instead of this slow boil bull. Keep voting… That’s obviously working for gun rights. We’ve used the first two boxes and they still don’t get it. Just saying.

      • “People that can’t be bothered to vote won’t be bothered to show up for a civil war.”

        Can we do this one last time?

        How does voting Republicrat get you anywhere? What is the point? Voting Republicrat only slows the decline into single-party control. Both parties want basically the same thing: government interference in every aspect of life. With Demoncrats, you get to the finish faster, and with a lot less angst, as in Republicrat betrayal is over sooner.

        • Thanx for missing the point. Vote for D or R or I. Write in Barney Rubble.

          The point is, if you care enough to vote, you’ll care enough to get into the streets.

          If you can’t be bothered to go to the polls on occasion how are you going to be bothered enough to gun up, leave your home and family, possibly forever?

      • Trump was the first and probably last time I vote. The system is irreparably broken. Other posters are right, we have run out of people to vote for.

        Some of us are lazy, but fuck me if I’m missing a war in my own country.

  24. I’m so offended by this that I’m going to vote Democrat in the next election. And then I’m going to commit seppuku. Because POTG voting Democrat and POTG committing seppuku are one and the same.

    • is seppuku more like hari kari or is it more akin to death by snu snu cause honestly I could get behind some death by snu snu.

      • Encyclopedia excerpt (Currently, it should be made mandatory for all US representatives and politicians!):

        jSeppuku
        Seppuku, (Japanese: “self-disembowelment”)also called hara-kiri, also spelled harakiri, the honourable method of taking one’s own life practiced by men of the samurai (military) class in feudal Japan. The word hara-kiri (literally, “belly-cutting”), though widely known to foreigners, is rarely used by Japanese, who prefer the term seppuku (written in Japanese with the same two Chinese characters but in reverse order).

        The proper method for committing the act—developed over several centuries—was to plunge a short sword into the left side of the abdomen, draw the blade laterally across to the right, and then turn it upward. It was considered exemplary form to stab again below the sternum and press downward across the first cut and then to pierce one’s throat. Being an extremely painful and slow means of suicide, it was favoured under Bushidō (warrior code) as an effective way to demonstrate the courage, self-control, and strong resolve of the samurai and to prove sincerity of purpose. Women of the samurai class also committed ritual suicide, called jigai, but, instead of slicing the abdomen, they slashed their throats with a short sword or dagger.

    • Be honest; would a Republican congress be going along with Democrat President gun control proposals? Or would they find their spine like they did under Obama?

  25. Well, a year of watching the #resistance Keystone cops themselves with their overreach, and the administration has to get in on the fun.

  26. So, to no one’s surprise, a politically motivated decision is moving forward.

    The sky isn’t falling people. If you think this is going to just go on without any legal challenges, you are sorely mistaken. For almost a decade these have been legally sold and then one day they decide that their original interpretation was wrong? Yeah, good luck in court.

    • In 10-15 years SCOTUS *might* get right on it.

      I wonder what American gun rights will look like by then?

      • We will probably be about like Australia at this rate. We are probably about 2 mass shootings away from all semi autos being banned.

        • Which is precisely why the FBI and police keep intentionally allowing mass shootings to happen.

  27. “The NRA was on board with regulating bump fire stocks in theory, but hadn’t signed on to this particular move.”

    Ya, they only suggested it. In their “”strength (is weakness) in numbers” “death from within” rights protection and enhancement strategy. Judas goat AARP MFrs.

  28. Well, congratulations NRA, this will be used to ban all semi autos.

    Fuck the NRA fuck Trump.

    • I’m still not seeing the connection between banning bump stocks (which hasn’t actually happened yet and since it requires ATF and OMB signoff as well as a public comment period I sorta doubt it will happen) and banning semi-autos.

      Someone please explain to me how a hypothetical bumpstock ban leads to a semi-auto ban? Preferably without any tinfoil hattery like I see on other websites…?

      • Because every semi auto out there can fire faster than the bullshit “standard rate of fire” that this mandate sets. Because of that, all semi autos will be classified as “machine guns” because they fire faster than the “standard rate of fire” and therefore banned.

        • Not buying it.

          The problem is that you and I realize certain things about how firearms work that it appears the DOJ and Mr. Sessions are ignorant of.

          There is no mention of fire rates in any actual proposal that has been put forward. The text of what has been most recently submitted to the OMB is, so far as I can tell having spent over an hour looking for it, not yet available. However, no previous mention of fire rates has ever been entertained in an actual proposal.

          Currently what it appears, based on what is publicly available, is that Mr. Sessions simply wants the OMB, DOJ and ATF all to agree that there is a new “interpretation” of the NFA definition of “machine gun”. That new “interpretation” would “…interpret the statutory definition of “machinegun” in the National Firearms Act of 1934 and Gun Control Act of 1968 to clarify whether certain devices, commonly known as “bump fire” stocks, fall within that definition.”

          In pursuing that goal what the DOJ announced today is that, and I quote, “To that end, the Department of Justice has submitted to the Office of Management and Budget a notice of a proposed regulation to clarify that the National Firearms and Gun Control Act defines ‘machinegun’ to include bump stock type devices.”

          Again, there is no mention of fire rate nor anything else that would suggest that this is coming after semi-auto rifles or pistols (or that in and of itself it would grant such authority if it was to become a reg). On the one hand that’s a good thing and it means that the whole “They’re coming for your semi-auto rifles!” thing is overblown hype. However, I would argue that what the DOJ is actually doing here is MUCH more sinister than what most 2A folks think (no offense but most of them lack an actual civics education). What the DOJ is effectively asking for is the authority to change statutory definitions via regulatory schemes.

          In and of itself that’s not currently a threat to semi-auto rifles and currently that’s not something I would worry about. Instead, the authority that the DOJ is asking for is actually exceedingly dangerous and corrosive to the entire Republic and the core tenets of our governmental system which is what should worry people. This is a full-frontal assault on the separation of powers, checks and balances and the entire concept of elected representation. The DOJ is basically asking for the power to say “Fuck Congress, fuck due process, fuck the Constitution, fuck separation of powers, fuck everything about our governmental system. If we want to change something we can do it by regulatory fiat.”

          That’s not how a Republic functions. That’s how a Banana Republic functions. Jeff Sessions is basically asking for Hugo Chavez/Nicolás Maduro type power to be vested in the DOJ and by extension generally in the Executive Branch.

          • “What the DOJ is effectively asking for is the authority to change statutory definitions via regulatory schemes.”

            Uncomfortably similar the casus belli of the Second American Revolution, which was the attempt to circumvent the constitution via simple legislation. In modern terms, “We don’t need no stinking constitution when it comes to doing the right thing.”

        • Strych, the only hope we have now is for SCOTUS to bitch-slap that ‘ruling”s un-constitutionality.

          And for that to happen, we need one more conservative SCOTUS justice.

          In the meanwhile, we had better protect drop-in triggers like the Geissele by getting the BATF to declare them and simple gunsmith “trigger jobs” expressly as “not a machine gun”.

          Otherwise, nothing is safe other than bone-stock firearms.

          That will make the custom gunmakers *very* happy as they will be the only source available for non-suckage triggers…

        • Geoff:

          As I have pointed out elsewhere in this comment section right now there is nothing for SCOTUS to rule on. There has been no rule change nor any regulation issued. What has happened is that the DOJ has sent the OMB a proposal for a regulation. The logical extension of that reg/rule change, were it to actually occur (which I personally rather doubt), is what should truly concern people.

          Further in that vein I don’t really see the threat to drop in triggers, trigger jobs or most other trigger mods. Each one would require a new regulation to cover the actual function of the device in question which means, just like this proposed reg, they would require an “expert opinion” from the BATFE. BATFE ain’t gonna do that because that is a can of worms they want NOTHING to do with and by law would be required to be involved with for each individual item. They’re more likely to publicly tell Jeff Sessions to eat a bag of dicks than they are to even try to deal with that bag of snakes. BATFE already complain they’re overworked and now they’re going to do this? Doubtful at best. The real truth here is that Congress critters, DOJ minions, Jeff Sessions himself and a host of others (Trump included) are in over their heads because they have no real firearms knowledge. They have no idea what they’re doing and they’re just going to flail around a bit before giving up and saying “Well we tried”.

          The delicious irony here is something you touch with a pin. Trump has, at a number of levels, shown a penchant for appointing really pretty conservative Constitutionalist judges to the bench. There is no reason to suspect that he will alter his course on that. As such he’s setting up his own AG to get laughed out of court over something like this. That is just hilarious. He asks Sessions to do this but at the same time appoints people to the courts who will never let this fly. I have no idea if that’s intentional (I suspect not) or not but it’s some Doomed Spy/Godfather type shit either way.

        • “Each one would require a new regulation to cover the actual function of the device in question…”

          Not in Florida.

          That turd of a new law states “*anything* that speeds up the rate of fire”, remember?

          We in Florida need some insulation on that, especially Floridians in heavy blue jurisdictions…

        • @ strych9 “This is a full-frontal assault on the separation of powers, checks and balances and the entire concept of elected representation.”
          Yes. This is the real danger in this attempt by Trump, Sessions and cronies. The rest of you need to stop quibbling about how many nuts are going to fall off the tree and pay attention to the C-4 being strung around the base of the trunk.

        • Geoff:

          And you expect that to stand up in court? I sure don’t. I mean, consider that when we talk about firearms rates of fire come in ranges for each gun. I mean the M4 Carbine has a listed rate of fire of something like 695-950 RPM. So, which number is it? No one actually knows until you test the individual rifle. With semi-auto rifles you’d also have to know the ability of the shooter.

          Just the variation in actual fire of an MG means that the law is vague, probably unconstitutionally so. Add in the variation in shooter capability and this law is likely going down in flames when it hits a courtroom.

      • Theoretically speaking: If a bump stock converts a semi auto to a machine gun, then any semi auto once equipped is technically still an illegal unregistered machine gun. Since no one can be certain of which semi autos have and have not been equipped, then they are all potential machine guns hence need to be banned.

        With bureaucratic bullshit being substituted for legitimate law, anything is possible.

      • We’re having this conversation solely because rapid fire sounds scary. Same reason why MGs got banned originally. That’s it.

        And all semi-auto designs can mag dump fast enough to scare people or “resemble” machineguns, unless they have very small magazines.

        NFA originally defined MGs as a magazine capacity *or* trigger action.

        • God forbid we can’t have beta male soy boys, soccer moms, and old bitter and judgmental bible thumping old temperance hags pissing themselves.

          After all they’re a part of the “true” America that the globalist government wants you to believe in.

        • Well that is because one of the original reasons for the NFA putting machine guns on the registry was to prevent wholesale slaughter of crowds. Vegas came damn close to exactly that.

        • If the potential to do what was done in Las Vegas is the standard, that makes any semi-auto potentially a “machine gun.” This is because bump fire is a technique, not an accessory. To make it easier, you can use a belt loop, or a heavy duty rubber band. But really all it requires is your finger.

      • “I’m still not seeing the connection between banning bump stocks ….and banning semi-autos. ”

        How ’bout this:
        https://www.nraila.org/articles/20180309/antigun-politicians-aim-for-america-s-most-popular-firearms-with-expansive-ban

        http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/firearms.jpg

        https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5087/text

        The bill is a semi-auto ban. As written, current owners would be exempted (good luck proving when you bought something). While the bill does not include handguns, what would it take to amend after “doing something about weapons of war”? The definition of “semi-auto” as a weapon relying upon recoil to unload and reload a cartridge is already sufficient to identify semi-auto handguns whenever the politicians desire.

        • None of which have sweet-fuck-all (I skipped the huffpo piece I won’t give them the clicks) to do with bump stocks or the regulation we’re discussing.

          Further, that bill isn’t going to make it out of committee never mind pass a floor vote.

          • Lack if initiative and attention is all to common here. Let me make it easy:
            The list of guns proposed to be banned ARE SEMI-AUTO. Not bumpfire, not finger bump, not machine guns, not grenade launchers; SEMI-AUTO. The listed guns are no more full automatic than is an auto loader with a bump stock attached. And yet, the semi-auto firearms are lumped with bump stock equipped firearms.

            The proposed federal legislation IS NOT a bump fire ban, it is a semi-auto ban.

            Do you see a connection, now?

  29. Time to order a truckload of bullshit and have the dumptruck bury the asshole in chiefs favorite car.. And someone needs to deface that kill the NRA sign and replace it with a huge white spraypainted bent over ass against the black bsckground with a caption that says ‘liberals are like assholes, every fart is a whisper, every talking point is a huge pile of shit’

  30. I don’t think Trump is going to run in ,2020. He’s made his bucket list. If the ATF would ban Bumpfire stocks and leave it at that, that would be OK with me. I’m thinking it won’t stop there though and they will ban high cap mags, I could live with that. Then they’ll go after semi-auto rifles, then bolt actions holding more then 5 rounds. And after they’ve destroyed the 2a the ” powers that be” will go after the rest of the inconveniences of the Constitution that get in their way of New World Order. It’s not just about the second amendment. Once technology advances to robotics and A I and it’s probably 20-30 years away,and “they” no longer need living cannon fodder or human labor we’re fucked. I’d kinda like to see a moon sized meteor smash into the earth

  31. When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”

    –Rudyard Kipling

  32. Aside from the facts I presented above about how there’s a ton more stuff to be done before we even start talking about a regulatory ban on bump stocks being something to worry about…

    This is pretty disgusting coming from Sessions. He’s supposed to be the AG with a stiffy for law and order yet he’s going down this road. A road he has to know isn’t legal. I mean it’s not that hard to figure out that a regulatory agency cannot rewrite a statute passed by Congress and signed by a POTUS. Only Congress can crack open the NFA and rewrite the definition of an MG.

    Mr. Sessions, didn’t we get enough lawless behavior from your predecessor? Didn’t you promise to end that kind of behavior at DOJ? This is political posturing and I get that but, all things being equal, it’s still disgusting behavior on your part.

    • The best part is that memo he released a while back purporting to put a stop to arbitrary agent ‘opinions’ carrying the force of law. I had 50/50 suspected this was really laying groundwork to go over their heads with a controversial executive order (and protecting the enforcement agents from criticism “Vee vas following orders, it wasn’t our decision!”)

    • And yet, he’s doing exactly what Trump wants done in this case, pretty much to the letter.

  33. OK. So I see a lot of Why did Trump stab us in the back and what changed since the ATF said bumpstocks aren’t machine guns? Along with I’ll never vote Trump again and the patently false (insert conservative politician of your choice here) would never do this. Well this statement actually answers both questions and proves while you’re wrong about candidate X.

    STATEMENT: POLITICIANS DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR RIGHTS OR THEIR PERCEIVED BELIEFS. REGARDLESS OF PARTY AFFILIATION IF THEY THINK PUBLIC OPINION WILL SUPPORT THEIR POWER GRASP THEY WILL REACH OUT AND TAKE THAT POWER! NOTHING YOU SAY ON HERE OR DO IN THE VOTING BOOTH WILL CHANGE THAT.

    Trump doesn’t lose a damn thing by siding with the dems this time and by letting the DOJ redefine machine guns. But…but he lost my support and my vote in 2020 you say…. Maybe, in the primary, should a better preferred candidate run, but remember he soundly whipped their a$$es in 2016 and we will not cede the white house to a democrat. Trump knows this and every RINO Republicrat knows this. you may not like them but you’ll hold your nose and elect them over every Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama the Democrat party can belch out of their communism infected orifices. Vote independent if you want but really, you’re throwing your vote away no independent party will ever take the white house, they simply can woo enough voters away from the big 2 to get the job done when it comes to a national election.

    I know it pisses you off that the libertarian can’t win but it’s true, we’ve become so used to the 2 party system that most people won’t chance a vote for a 3rd party candidate for an office like President. Sure there are third party representatives but that’s a much smaller stage dealing with more regional and localized issues than say dealing with North Korea or Syria. There also isn’t much of a national infrastructure in place to support a 3rd party like there is with the big 2. So yeah, we’re pretty well stuck with the option of a communist or communism light.

    • “we’ve become so used to the 2 party system that most people won’t chance a vote for a 3rd party candidate for an office like President”

      We’re not just used to it, we’re STUCK with it. Two parties is the natural result when you have winner-take-all elections like we do. Until we start counting votes differently, a 3rd party will never be able to emerge.

      • I seem to remember learning in Civics or Social Studies way back in the early 2000’s that it used to be the President didn’t get to choose his Vice President and that the Vice President was actually whichever candidate lost the election against the President. Maybe we could return to that or go with this.
        1st place: President
        2nd place: Vice President
        3rd place: Speaker of the House
        4th place: Senate President

        Just do away with national primaries completely.

        • “… it used to be the President didn’t get to choose his Vice President and that the Vice President was actually whichever candidate lost the election against the President.”

          Great. The ‘HildaBeast’ as VP, one heartbeat away from the presidency.

          What could *possibly* go wrong with that?

          Talk about real-life ‘Game of Thrones’ bullshit with only the beheadings as the difference.

          Well, come to think of it, it would be equally terrifying and hilarious to see Hillary do a nude ‘Walk of Shame’…

          (I am a sick puppy… *snicker* 😉 )

        • Damnit Geoff some of us have to pass a DOT eye exam this month!!!! I did not need to see that! My eyes!!

      • Oook interesting mangling of the human language but I suppose if one were to remove a few words and change a couple letters it could be taken to mean that.

  34. Thanks NRA! You asshats tilted the slippery slope just a little bit more. What’s next on your list, CLP?

    • And my finger identifies as a bumpstock… Does that make me an illegal? If so I think I’ll move to one of those sanctuary things and enjoy my new nfa devices.

  37. And I guess the ATF won’t go after people who really break established firearm laws like Karen Mallard because she’s a gun grabber.

    Instead the gestap… er… ATF is going to make criminals out of more Americans and serve their original purpose of destroying the second amendment and waging war against American gun owners.

  38. The more unhinged that some of the “people of the gun” become that post here, the more they resemble liberals.

      • I’m not sure I follow. I was pointing out that the more people here lash out with raw emotion, the more they are acting like screeching liberals. Rather than keep a cool head and think logically, passion takes over and the hinges come off. This has nothing to do with whether or not I think bump stocks should be regulated, if that’s what you were trying to get at.

  40. My Slide Fire stock was delivered three days ago. I’m so glad I got something the vast majority on TTAG, say I don’t need.

    If the so called gun expert’s could articulate a reasoned argument on the ownership of military small arms weapons by civilians, we would be in a much better position.

    It seems rich collector’s will benefit the most.

    During the assault weapons ban debate Senator Joe Biden asked NRA Representatives at his Senate hearing if civilians should be able to own grenade launchers. The NRA Representatives said no they should not. They were not given a chance to expand on their statement. Their statement was made and that was it.

    Now fast-forward to 2016 and we find that the federal government under President Obama sent Select Fire M16 rifles to the Los Angeles School District. And they sent M-79 grenade launchers to the Los Angeles School District. There are grenade launchers in the East Bay parks department in California.

    So now it does seem that it is okay for civilians to possess grenade launchers even if those civilians happened to be government employees, who never had military training, but they still get to have that M-79 grenade launcher.

    I wonder if the NRA now does approve of civilians, government employees, possessing grenade launchers???

  42. Now I’m hoping Trump does get impeached.

    Pence might be ok.

    • I would have agreed on pence but after hearing his support for GRVOs (in the same meeting where trump took a giant dump verbally on the 4th amendment) im starting to think that the real life sissy version of cotton hill wouldnt be much better.

  43. And I see the ATF is trolling the comment section here. Looking for more Randy’s Weavers to frame I guess.

  44. The ONLY silver lining I could see out of this is if they open a MG amnesty for the next year or two. Otherwise we’re fucked. That would be the screwiest thing of all though is if we got new legit MGs due to bump fire stocks.

    • Or they could use the old “sue and settle” strategy to have the 1984 ban declared unconstitutional.

      • Go eat some dog food sarge. We spent the last week with your bs 49d underwater backgammon defense of trump.

  45. 4 hots n a cot here we come.
    Or somebodies going to eventually get killed over a rubber band
    If the people of the gun helped elect Trump. We can just as easily not reelect him.
    Personally I still don’t care about bump stocks in general.
    The punishment or non payment for them I do.
    Ill be dammed or killed maybe arrested.
    I will NOT give up a thing I purchased legally and is now illegal by the signature of some idjits pen.
    Not without compensation for it in full first.

    • “I will NOT give up a thing I purchased legally and is now illegal by the signature of some idjits pen.
      Not without compensation for it in full first.”

      One should understand that by delaying the effective date of the legislation, gun owners are given “fair” notice to sell their outlawed gun parts to out-of-state entities. This will qualify as appropriate opportunity to not have your gun parts made worthless due to legislation. In essence, the “warning” period is likely to be judged proper avoidance of a fifth amendment prohibition of uncompensated “taking”. If memory serves, such rulings have already been rendered in other states.

  47. I just had a thought: if the bump fire can be “classified” bureaucratically as a “machine gun” under the federal statutory definition, wouldn’t that then mean that every semi-automatic rifle could similarly be bureaucratically deemed to be “readily converted” into a “machine gun” under the same, statutory definition?

    If that’s the case, then it is easy to see how this DOJ action could lead to reclassifying all semi-automatic rifles as “mavhine guns” under NFA.

    As usual, IANAL.

    • “wouldn’t that then mean that every semi-automatic rifle could similarly be bureaucratically deemed to be “readily converted” into a “machine gun” under the same, statutory definition?”

      In Florida, we’re now dealing with Timney-type drop-in triggers potentially being classified as MGs.

      Perhaps we need a clarifying determination letter from the BATF that things like that are *not* MGs.

      On the downside, this gives precedent for a Progressive administration to do the same against us when they regain power…

    • Chip, I’m waiting for my open bolt Scorpion. Can you please send me one, I will PM my FFL.

      • By your argument a semi-auto gun would be a machine gun because I can do the same thing with out a bump stock. I can fire my AR by holding the for-end in my left hand and pushing it away from me with my right hand index finger in front of the trigger and bump fire that way, an action that is no different then using a bump stock.

    • I wouldn’t get too worried about the DOJ or ATF.

      This is a minor issue compared to the (shooting) civil war that is going to erupt in the near future as the US is currently on a collision course with rebellion.

      • “This is a minor issue compared to the (shooting) civil war that is going to erupt in the near future as the US is currently on a collision course with rebellion.”

        Fantastical thinking, again. If the revolution did not occur when the federal government murdered people in Waco for violating no law. Or the threat of armed conflict in Bundy 1, why is a disagreement over a firearm accessory going to ignite the third American Revolution? Why?

        • I wasn’t saying that regulating bump stocks (or any firearms law or regulation) is going to cause any war.

          The very fast (and now accelerating) attack on traditional American values, civil society, and individual rights by approximately one quarter to one half of the population is going to ignite a civil war in the very near future.

          • If the population absorbed and ignored the murderous acts of an out-of-control government after Waco, how do you project that continual, slow, steady erosion of American values (whatever that means) will ignite armed rebellion? We are a nation of individuals. If my individual comfort zone is not disturbed, it is of no interest that someone else is being subjected to egregious acts by the federal or state government. Multiply that by the entire population. We have no sense of community. No concept that rights denied anywhere are denied everywhere. Simply put, we no longer care about much of anything that is not interfering with out daily schedule (Ex: why are there no pro-gun demonstrations and mass marches in places the media cannot ignore?). The majority of us are too busy keeping what little control we have over our immediate circumstance. We vote by remote control, accept the outcomes, and go back to our reading.

            We cannot even organize a vote revolution.

        • When people, in large numbers, start losing their livelihood because they didn’t know the right pronoun to address some nutty leftist or because they say something patriotic, or because they support the opposition to leftist candidates (it will be as if they suddenly became conservative college students), there will be rebellion.

          It’s in California and Academia now and is moving very quickly and will be affecting the general population soon.

          I work in Academia. I don’t speak much (except to other POTG, of which there are quite a few) so I don’t bring any attention to myself.

          When a registered independent or Republican goes to vote, Antifa and BLM will be waiting to prevent them from voting, when campaign rallies for other than leftists are attacked in-mass, when non-leftist candidates can’t give speeches and the heckler’s veto prevails, when all this also applies to daily life and the courts always rule in favor of the left, there will be armed rebellion.

          Unless there is major unity and political action for those that support liberty now, civil war is unavoidable. The Bolshevik revolution is coming.

          What will cause the spark that sets off the powder keg?

          • Your proposition rises and falls on Californication. Setting aside New York and Jersey, let us agree Californication is the epitome of the culture you describe as being a wave about to break over the nation. Californication is the worst of the worst.

            But where is the revolution? Where is the evidence that people are departing the state in droves solely because of the culture change? We do not even find a full complement of voters on both sides (vote participation is seriously less than 100%). There seems to be a notable exodus based on cost of living, but we have not seen anything that indicates the people most affected by the warped culture are fleeing because of the degradation of society.

            The people of Californication have been patiently suffering the fall of American culture because: location, location, location. In short, they find enough attractiveness in other elements of the state that they accommodate the social horror.

        • As soon as the Cali wave sweeps across flyover country, there will be a substantial reaction. Most people will be caught off-guard by the wave.

          There are many places around the US that are currently suffering like the folks that would form the new State of Jefferson if they could. It is not limited to California, New Jersey, etc.

          The vast majority of those that don’t want to flee California or New Jersey are leftists, those remaining likely don’t have the ability (financial or otherwise) to escape.

  49. This sucks. It always cracks me up when people argue legality and the Constitution. They matter not one iota to those in power. There are simply those who are in power and those who are not. It’s a two party system – you’re either in government or you’re not.

    Trump is still a damn sight better than Hillary, and the economy is doing well. Our choices were Trump or Hillary, and that’s it. Rand Paul, Walker, and Cruz are still favorites of mine, as are Republicans who are actually pro gun. The best we can all do is to support pro-gun politicians, businesses, organizations, and messages.

    Let’s face it, every time we have a mass shooting more gun control gets crammed down our throats. We bicker, and the Left is unified. These are scary times.

    • Trump is looking to tank the economy with tariffs. He wants to start a trade war.

      Tariffs are a bad idea and much more negative in modern day. America cannot win a trade war with countries that provide America with its way of life. America cannot maintain its current lifestyle if they have to rely on themselves, they no longer have the industry that brought them wealth.

      Imagine what would happen if China decided not to import anything to the U.S.

      • We’re already in a trade war… We’ve just been taking it in the shorts for years by doing nothing.

        China has a lot more to lose in this than we do. They need the money they get from us for those goods.

        • China sells to the world, not just America. They can provide for themselves like they provide the world with products and services. They make cars, computers, food, clothes, etc. They don’t need fiat currency when they have actual wealth.

          American companies rely on Asia to produce their products at a price they can make a profit from. There is no way America can have low prices relying on their own industry or instigating economic fights. If America still had its production capabilities and low cost of manufacturing, they could impose onto other countries because they would have a healthy economy. America is more of a borrower, with international companies who are not loyal to America and is reliant on a service worker industry to keep its citizens employed, than a booming nation without debt.

      • “Tariffs are a bad idea and much more negative in modern day. America cannot win a trade war with countries that provide America with its way of life. ”

        If what you say is true, why do all the other countries think placing tariffs on American goods will work to thier advantage? Why do they not fear a trade war? Why are we not seeing our NATO allies going bankrupt because tariffs on American goods wrecked their economies?

        • Countries that impose fees on imports raise the total cost of those imports, thus making it hard for the average person to afford to buy from outside. An imported car will be many times more expensive than a local one. Is that the way Americans want to live — like some struggling third world country?

          It’s easier for Trump to impose (illegal) tariffs like some Communist protectionist than to get Congress to return to a Capitalist economy without socialist programs. He will then pretend to be some Capitalist hero while doing what Communist Democrats did in the early 1900s. Very similar to being a protector of the 2nd Amendment by passing gun control to protect Americans.

          • “Is that the way Americans want to live — like some struggling third world country?”

            Specifically, which third world country did I mention? Remember the notation about NATO allies? Do you seriously believe those nations are suffering economically for their imposition of tariffs on US goods?

            What you propose is to continue to allow every other nation on the planet to American goods more expensive than their own. How does America benefit from that? Do you have specific examples of where a nation implementing tariffs on American goods dropped those tariffs (or lowered them) simply because they suddenly realized they were on the brink of economic disaster because tariffs on American goods were ruining their economies?

            There is no such thing as free trade when only one player refuses to protect itself. So long as there is any government intervention in economic trade, it isn’t free trade.

  50. We have had more gun control under 2 years of Trump than under 8 years of Obama.

    This is what winning looks like, right?

    • Well then you don’t know what you are talking about. Right now I only count two with Trump, this and the VEPR AK ban.

      Obama has the 7n6 ban, Russian gun ban, U.S. surplus gun ban (South Korea M1 deal), Steyr AUG pistol kit ban, and various states like New York, Connecticut, Washington, Oregon, Maryland, and Delaware passed more intrusive gun laws. Don’t forget the attempted M855 ban too and temporary reclassification of “arm braces”.

      So yea both are bad but as of now Obama is still worse.

  51. FUCKING BROKE (D)ICK DOJ CAN’T PROTECT ITS FUCKING SELF MUCH LESS THE BONA FIDE CITIZENS OF ANERICA OR ITS BORDERS, BUT IT CAN INVENT AUTHORITY FOR ITSELF TO REGULATE BUMPSTOCKS.

    Again and still
    F em

  52. I have not seen the text of the proposed regulation. I’m hoping that it is narrowly written to prohibit ONLY bump-stocks per se. If so, I’m optimistic that it will prove to be a great victory.
    In such a scenario, the ATF will have no interest in writing a broader regulation that could threaten, e.g., trigger-jobs. Likewise, Congress will be able to dismiss any pressure to pass a law. The infringement will be confined to an unimportant toy; and there it will rest.
    The 2A faces far more important threats of infringement, not the least of which is AWB-2.0. We have much more marketable arguments against a new AWB bill than those we have to defend bump-stocks. So, getting a bad “bump-stock/binary-trigger/trigger-job/oil-in-the-fire-controll-group” bill killed is valuable, and a tactical WIN.

    • Fail

      Any infringement is a loss.

      You won’t get your precious national reciprocity or HPA, EVER!! Anti’s will never relent and every time you give in you only embolden them.

      What part of your enemies hate you and will never negotiate with you do you not understand?

      People like you are the problem for why we can’t have nice things because you always give in expecting the libtards to go away. When will you realize you are living a fantasy?

  54. The NRA asked for increased regulations and got increased regulations. Unfortunately gun owners are so stupid they then started sending the NRA a lot of money instead of figuring out a new option that isn’t stupid.

    • Getting the timing to work on a lightning link is not a easy task. Not by a long shot. Why do you think you see so many of the transferable ones on the market?

      • Getting the timing to work on a lightning link is not a easy task. Not by a long shot.

        ??? I guess it depends on how mechanically minded the person? Here you go. “Lightning Link Timing Made Easy:”
        http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html

        Why do you think you see so many of the transferable ones on the market?

        A quick google search lead me to virtually no options where I could buy them.

  56. So, will this include bump devices that do not also function as a stock, such as the Bair Arms bump device?

    • Honestly it should, It has that interface block that actively prevents you finger from staying on the trigger when the gun recoils.

      • By your argument a semi-auto gun would be a machine gun because I can do the same thing with out a bump stock. I can fire my AR by holding the for-end in my left hand and pushing it away from me with my right hand index finger in front of the trigger and bump fire that way, an action that is no different then using a bump stock.

        Now if you want to complain about why it is so stupid when people point out the technical and legal definitions of what is and is not and what makes a machine gun, fine, but your thought process only leads to a out right ban of semi-auto guns. And it is a purely emotional thought process at that, which has no place in making or changing laws.

        • Did you hear that guys? Binder doesn’t like the manner in which you are shooting fruit in your back yard. He doesn’t like that you can shoot your semi- real fast. or… maybe he doesn’t like what you could be capable of. So deep down, he wants to limit your capabilities. Does it matter that you are shooting fruit in your back yard? Nope. He has an opinion on your victimless activities and he would like to force that opinion on you, by making it a victimless crime.

  58. F “it’s the economy stupid”.

    It’s “the 2ND Amendment or your pelt on the side of the barn, stupid”

  59. A new product is introduced to the black market.

    Next time a criminal wants to install 12 bump stocks, rather than using cheaper methods to make the rifles full-auto and more accurate than with the bump stocks, he’ll have to pay appreciably more. Good job, geniuses.

  60. Once again in typical fashion the pro-gun 2nd Amendment group feeds on itself by bashing Trump and the NRA and who knows what other friends it once had. So I’m guessing you all have never heard of election year politics. Too bad. Because as you tragically fight the very forces and institutions who are – that is were – trying to help you by maintaining a Republican congress you will now utterly FAIL. The next congress will be a Democrat controlled bastion of gun control fanatics and your next president will be Oprah. Better bury those cheap plastic bump stocks and every other firearm you own because you’re gonna lose them all! Have fun explaining the constitution to Ms Winfrey. CNN will be watching.

    • Like I said in October:

      The NRA has given strength to the BATFE, they have sided with “gun control” politicians and implied that the BATFE should exist. Now Republicans have to side with the “gun control” group, the NRA learderhip and the BATFE for their upcoming elections. We have already seen Republicans calling for more laws/infringements. This puts Trump in a bad position going forward, which is why he is trying to delay the discussion.

      Why does anyone need a stock that is used for range entertainment by a few people? Why would a person need a .50 BMG at a public range if they are not taking out vehicles and aircraft? Why do people need impractical drum magazines, belts and extended magazines for fun mag dumps at the range? Why do people have to have flash hiders if they only shoot at targets at the range during the day? Why is it necessary for people to use infrared or thermal devices to shoot at the range?

      Most people don’t have or need these things. So why shouldn’t they be banned along with the bump fire stocks? Let’s just have guns with no attachments, require thin barrels for semi automatic long guns and regulate the calibers/rounds for specific purpose use that isn’t combat. Since we are at it, let’s make it illegal to have any pistol that can fire a bullet over the speed of sound.

      Come NRA, you have done it before, you can do it again. You can cut off much of the negativity toward your org by being cool with such range toy regulation, as it will keep semi auto guns safe for a little longer. That way the water only rises in temperature slowly; maybe slow enough that your current members will expire before the repeal of the human right of self preservation and private property protection using modern tools. You don’t want your members to have to get off the couch anytime soon (if ever).

      • Let’s just have guns with no attachments, require thin barrels for semi automatic long guns and regulate the calibers/rounds for specific purpose use that isn’t combat. Since we are at it, let’s make it illegal to have any pistol that can fire a bullet over the speed of sound.

        Saw that coming:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4VKnH7EdcQ&t=29s

  61. Had some friends actually celebrate this article “My stock is now worth 4000$!!!” I told them the Hughes amendment will most likely make them destroy the stocks bc did not the Hughes amendment ban the manufacture of new machine guns after 1986?

    Infringed

    • Interesting question, but that’s not the right answer. Hughes didn’t ban the manufacture after 1986; it banned the Treasurer of the US from selling tax stamps for MGs not manufactured before the “ban”. The Secretary of the Treasury (IIRC) has the authority to create an amnesty. So, a scenario MIGHT be that the SotT makes an amnesty for owners to register their bump-stocks (and rubber bands or belt loops?) in a 90-day window.

      Such an approach would clear out a lot of potential legal objections such as ex post facto or takings.

      Now, you would have a world with a few registered lightning links, DIAS, and bump-stocks and “everybody” (or, at least some people) would be happy.

      What would remain would be the objectors to the Hughes Amendment and the objectors to the NFA’34. America has lived with these objectors since 1986 and since 1934. So, this scenario (which I am neither advocating nor criticizing) would return us to the unpleasant state we lived in prior to the commercialization of the bump-stock.

      IF I thought we ought to really fight the regulation of machine guns (a noble endeavor irrespective of its practical impact) I would pick my hill-to-die-on very carefully. Let’s assume that there are numerous choices of hills, one the outright dumbest, and another the best choice.

      The best choice is the Hughes Amendment. One could concede, for the sake of the attack on the Hughes Amendment, that a modest tax of $200 on the MG IS Constitutional. IF that is presumed to be so, then forbidding the Treasurer from selling tax stamps is NOT Constitutional. This argument is rational and hard to overcome irrespective of what opponents might have to say about the Constitutionality of regulating MGs. One would have the best shot of overturning Hughes (even if this battle were lost in round-2).

      The next best choice is arguing that registration for law abiding citizens is unConstitutional while felons remain unregulated by this same law on Constitutional grounds. Equal protection of the law. This seems tough to get around.

      Then, there is an argument for how rigorously government can regulate “arms” that are quintessentially military weapons.

      Let’s suppose that government regulated an ancient mace (spiked ball on a chain with a handle). It is an “arm”; no doubt about that. It’s military purpose is at best limited. So, suppose government imposes a tax of $200 and registration. Would SCOTUS strike it down? Probably not.

      Turn to the AOW, the “lemon squeezer”. Would SCOTUS strike-down a $5 transfer tax and registration? How much does this law “infringe” on the maintenance of a “well regulated militia”?

      Now, then, the select-fire M-16? Or, the select-fire short-barreled M-4? The only defense of the “infringement” is the “common use” doctrine which is mere dicta; it’s not the “decision” itself. It’s much easier to overcome precedent found only in dicta (as compared to the decision).

      The argument I’d make to SCOTUS is the following.

      ‘We will live with the NFA’34 as respects MGs, but NOT the Hughes Amendment. Empirically, the $200 tax and registration regulation on MGs has been overwhelmingly successful at minimizing crime by lawful MGs; at most 3 known murders since 1934. Tentatively, we might be able to concede that this is a credit to this particular application of regulation. Nevertheless, MGs are the quintessential military arm. It is therefore “necessary” for the maintenance of a “well regulated militia” for members of the general militia to have access to training with these arms so that they may be proficient in their use in case of invasion, etc. It is sufficient to have some modest number of legal MGs for such limited training. We are cognizant of the real risk that a tyrannical government might summarily and illegally confiscate all registered MGs. However, this risk is negligible in its impact. The modifications prerequisite to converting AR-15s to full-auto are nearly trivial. If all MGs were confiscated on a Friday night, countless DIASs and lightning links would be finished and in testing the following Monday. Therefore, SCOTUS, we pray for Hughs to be struck-down and let us live in the liberty of NFA’34.’

      This just might work if only Trump gets another SCOTUS appointment.

      • “let us live in the liberty of NFA’34”

        It sickens me that so many would agree with these words. I’m sad that you have grown so comfortable with the boot on your neck.

      • “Empirically, the $200 tax and registration regulation on MGs has been overwhelmingly successful at minimizing crime by lawful MGs”

        You mentioned that there were three. I did a Lycos search and I saw a number of references to the total of three, but some mentioned a “potential” and some did list them both. However, that’s neither here nor there.

        More to the point, it’s fairly goofy to say that only three legally owned MG homicides (assuming that’s true) made the legislation a success. Not only is full auto inefficient and often not the best tool for the offensive job, but most homicides with MGs were committed with non-registered MGs, whether made or modified as such. Correct me if I’m wrong on that.

        Even more to the point, I’ve gone about making the point for full auto, specifically three-round, being useful for some self defense situations with the right caliber and the right load selection. I do not think that pursuing the optimal self defense weapon should involve being put on a list, especially in recent years.

  62. Why does anyone need a stock that is used for range entertainment by a few people? 

    Why indeed? And you are willing to trade a Republican controlled congress and a Republican president for a simple and cheap piece of plastic. It boggles the mind. Hope your guns aren’t registered.

    • I can’t own a modern rifle unless it’s registered with the government. No “Republican” congress or President helped me. Now they are not helping you.

      Trump supported infringing on young people’s right to keep and bear arms, due process, etc. Florida Republicans passed laws doing exactly that. Now Florida has more than a ban on a cheap piece of plastic. Same applies to other States. The Federal government didn’t come marching in to save those Americans, they actually support those infringements.

      The Obama era government was less successful; it unified gun owners and got them off their lazy compromising asses. The Trump government has gun owners playing 8 dimensional chess instead of making changes.

    • Again, like I said in October:

      The problem with kneeling down is the fact that it’s a concession to disingenuous people who are proposing things that wouldn’t have done anything to stop the attack. The current strategy from “gun control” groups is to maintain the fear of firearms. The NRA is playing into that by agreeing that the bump fire technique is too deadly/dangerous to go unregulated. Now the public is going to see that EVEN the NRA agrees that “gun control” is necessary and that the Vegas attack would have been less deadly if there was more laws. Fact is, the attack was less deadly because the man had a bump fire stock on his rifles and not so reliable mags. The problem with saying that to the public is that it will require a lot of work to show people who don’t want to listen in the first place.

      What should be their focus is a genuine action to reduce gun deaths from the areas Americans can without further human right restrictions. To publicize their mission statement regarding the strategy the NRA is going to actively take from this point onward to greatly reduce violence and accidents with firearms, while being honest about not being able to stop every terror attack that involves firearms.

      The public’s complaint isn’t the bump fire technique, it’s the violence/death. Reducing the deaths from gang violence and negligence will reduce the uncontrollable emotional reaction to ban the firearm when a terrorist uses one.

      The NRA should use it’s money to help fix the hood/ghettos. Help less fortunate kids go to good schools. Have a mentor program for kids with bad parents or no parents. Reach out to local governments to get gun safety put into the public school curriculum at the earliest age possible. Help fund mental health programs and work with politicians to improve the deficiencies with the mental health system. Work to improve the quality of the police force and don’t defend or go silent when bad police do something wrong. Etc.

      Instead we have this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaLh74eXTDo&t=1h12m39s

  64. Anyone surprised? This was inevitable after Las Vegas.

    Of course the DoJ was under pressure to do this. And undoubtedly, it will have follow-on effects as noted in the article. Get enough excuses and almost anything can be banned.

    Just going to have to deal with it – or someone win a court case for once. With the number of judges in the U.S. who comprehend the Constitution dwindling, good luck with that.

  65. These are not the days I grew up in. This is not the nation I want for my children. Just like the term “biker” has become a negative profile, gun owner and their guns are to be looked down upon.

    Yes, I ride a Harley. So does my wife as she has her own. No Robert, We are not ” bikers” in your definition. We are Harley owners and gun owners and diesel pickup owners and home owners and more. All of which can be demonized be some group somewhere.

    Why can we not be left alone instead of a constant barge of demonization coming from every angle imagintionable. Are we not free anymore? I was some 40 years plus ago. Free to make my own choices. Married to same woman over 40 years. 4 kids, 8 grandkids and soon to be great grandparents. We have taught them all that choices that they make are the the ones they ultimately own. Now that’s under fire as well by yet another group.

    Honestly, I just don’t see an end to it anymore. Being 60 just around the corner and I am afraid that I will live to see that America will just become another demonized term.

  66. I, for one, am not happy about this proposal but it does, to me, appear that the Trump Administration is going about this proposed change the correct way and NOT through heavy-handed tactic of Executive Order. 2nd Amendment supporters need to follow this as it will not be finalized for 2 to 3 months as this is a “Proposed Rule Change”. The normal process is that the proposed change will be subject to public commentary and this is where citizens, lobbying groups, etc., get their say. No word on whether there will be a public meeting or not but I would expect one. Once the commnetary period is over the ATF, Office of Budget Management, etc., will decide on a Final Rule and publish that at which time there is still an appeals process. Work through the NRA, Gun Owners of America, etc., to keep track.

    • “So, now what?
      Classify ALL semi automatic rifles as a Machine Gun?”

      That’s what Feinstein’s resurrected 2013 AWB legislation does. Has Repub cosponsor, and has been submitted for vote.

  69. Does anyone know the specifics of exactly how they arrived at this conclusion? I ask because without knowing the reasoning behind this move we cannot know how bad this is. Assuming – only for the sake of discussion – that the NFA as it applies to machine guns is legal, then the issue is how they classified bump stock as machine guns.

    For instance, if their reasoning is that the bump stock is part of a “trigger system” that acts to create fully automatic fire, this might no be nearly as bad as a ruling that said that anything that increase rate of fire is a machine gun part.

    Let’s find out how the reached this conclusion (yes, they must disclose this) before we start thinking the sky is falling.

  72. ONCE YOUR GOVERNMENT CAN DO THIS FING BULLSHIT TO YOU, THEN FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS CAN TRICK (OR COMPEL) YOUR GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS TO YOU.

    SO, YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT’S ALREADY OCCURRED.

    F EM ALL.

    • Ya. Was it that, soros festering cack gave Hillary Syphilis, and John Kerry was coming down with something similar? Communist Bernie didn’t have strong enough ties to Russia, and Pocahontas was busy playing cowboys and indians? The evil broke dick rino (R) gave us DJT because they knew we would rise up and smash the F out of them if the President pissed us off on 2A? err, or. . . The POS (D) gave us The Donald because . . . wait, no, you lost me on that one.

  75. When schools are “gun free zones”, and the police wait in the parking lot until the shooting stops, it doesn’t matter if some loon is using a machine gun, an old fashioned double barrel shotgun, or even a little revolver. They have all the time in the world to finish what they start. The ONLY reason I can see for not arming willing teachers, posting armed guards or responding to active shooters is because PROGRESSIVES WANT KIDS TO DIE. You don’t see progressive politicians banning guns from the capital or getting rid of their own security. CNN has armed guards, so does every major network. You don’t see the most well funded anti-gunners without armed protection. Even celebrities cry “get rid of guns” from behind a small army of gun wielding security guards. Hang in there guys and gals. You’ll win this fight.

    Hang in there, guys and gals. Self-defense is obvious to everyone, even progressives.

    • “When schools are “gun free zones”, and the police wait in the parking lot until the shooting stops, it doesn’t matter if some loon is using a machine gun, an old fashioned double barrel shotgun, or even a little revolver. They have all the time in the world to finish what they start. ”

      But doncha see? You hit directly on the problem. If people could not get guns, school shootings couldn’t happen (it is not gangs and inner city thugs doing the shootings). No guns, no school shootings. Bullet proof logic at its best. No guns, no mass shootings. No laws, no criminals. Closes the circle.

  76. I’ve never fired a rifle with a bumpstock. Can someone who has please post what its like? Is it just for sh^ts and giggles? It seems to me that there would be an immense loss of accuracy. Since I’m a big fan of precision, I don’t think I’d ever use one.

    Speaking completely hypothetically, and to try to understand why mass shootings take place- why even choose to use a gun for mass murder? It seems terribly inefficient even if you had access to a machine gun.

  77. (Replying to DaveDetroit above)

    Yeah the accuracy is degraded ridiculously, like a 6′ (yes six feet) group at 50 yards for me. Not sure whose quote this is but it truly is “turning money into noise” so I’ll probably never practice enough to get any better.

    It’s a hoot to run a few mags through though 🙂

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