Ukraine civilian casualty war zone
Ukrainian emergency employees and volunteers carry an injured pregnant woman in Mariupol, Ukraine. (AP Photo/Evgeniy Maloletka)

The following article originally appeared at Handwaving Freakoutery and is reprinted here with permission. 

By BJ Campbell, HWFO

On January 24th 2023, the Newton Action Chair Po Murray tweeted this:

We’re going to tear this tweet apart brick by brick, leaving it a heap of smoldering mathematical rubble, because that’s just how we roll around here. Then we’re going to talk about the side benefits of nuking US cities for fun and profit.

Let’s begin.

Data Check

The figure of 6,919 civilians killed in Ukraine is both wrong and low. It comes from the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. It’s wrong because it was updated to 7,068 confirmed killed on January 23rd of this year, and it’s low because it’s a confirmed killed number, and it’s very difficult to confirm every civilian casualty in an active war zone.

Nobody uses “confirmed killed” numbers when talking about wars unless they’re trying to downplay the civilian casualties for some reason. The Ukrainian government estimates 33,681 killed, including 25,000 in the siege of Maruipol itself, for which no “confirmations” can even be made because of the nature of the siege.

Lie number one.

Murray uses 20,138 gun deaths excluding suicide from the Gun Violence Archive, which is notorious for cooking their books. First, this number includes cases of legitimate defensive gun use and of police use, which should be stripped out. Second, the last year for which verified data is available is 2020, which had 19,384 gun homicides.

I find it hard to believe that 2022 had more homicides than the George Floyd Protest Summer of Love did, but let’s move forward with the Gun Violence Archive’s number as if it’s correct just for the sake of argument.

Per Capita

The first thing someone who isn’t lying must do with these two numbers is calculate a death rate from them. The USA is far bigger than the Ukraine, so these numbers must be normalized against total population. When we do that, here’s what we get . . .


The Ukraine civilian casualty rate is 12.7 times higher than the USA gun homicide rate. But that’s not even a fair comparison either, because some of the gun homicides in the USA are combatants.

These two bars compare innocent bystanders in the Ukraine against gang members intentionally trying to shoot each other in the USA. There’s no good way to know how many of the USA numbers come from shootouts between armed opponents (e.g. literal combatants) but the absolute floor is around 15%, which is the usual rate of known gang crime. If we correct for that, the ratio is closer to 15:1. Maybe higher.

Lie number two.

Counterfactuals

I just got back from SHOT Show 2023 in Las Vegas this past weekend, the world’s largest firearms conference, and much of the buzz on the floor was about how Eastern Europe is pivoting at light speed towards civilian rifle ownership because of the war in Ukraine. Everyone can see on the ground that while Ukraine’s army is doing quite well, they are not entrusted with keeping villages safe. Their attention is fully on the front lines of that war. If a village wants to keep itself safe, they need rifles too, and they don’t have them.

Poland sees this, Lithuania sees this, and every citizen on the border with Russia is arming up. Simply put, there is a significant case to be made that if Ukraine had more civilian guns they’d have less civilian war casualties. They seem to think so, at least, and I’m not one to put words in their mouth.

HWFO has made a similar case to this before, when comparing rates of US homicide death to rates of European genocide death.

What we discovered there was that the net difference in homicide deaths between the USA and Europe was 14 times smaller than the annual expected value of European genocide deaths, corrected to match the US population. Go back to the other article and check the math if you like. Europe is a genocidal shithole.

That’s a curiously similar result to the Ukraine civilian casualty ratio, don’t you think? 12:1, 14:1. 15:1, these are large numbers of dead people happening in areas without a lot of guns.

But the anti-gun crowd loves Europe, shithole genocide and all, so maybe they’re okay with genocide as a policy. Let’s play with that for a second and see what they could do, genocide-wise, to solve the homicide problem in the USA.

Genocide to Solve Homicide

Since the anti-gun crowd is continually okay with eliminating the only bulwark against genocide in the United States in their drive to make us more like Europe, where genocide is commonplace, let’s unpack how they could just skip to the end and use genocide as a tool to reduce gun homicide here.

It’s really pretty simple. Start nuking cities. The following table is built from 2019 data:

From the prior article, the expected value of annual genocide death due to European policy choices is, when corrected to match US population totals, around 95,000 per year. Year one you drop a nuke on St. Louis and reduce the overall murder rate by 1%. Then year four you drop a nuke on Baltimore, and the net murder rate goes down 3%.

Every few years you drop another nuke, in keeping with the expected value of genocide death due to Euro-style policy, and you eventually get all the way down to significant homicide reductions. It’s really pretty easy, once you decide that the only remaining bulwark against genocide isn’t important.

Conclusions

Mathematics seems to indicate the following:

  1. No, we do not currently live in a war zone,
  2. Converting US gun policy to match European gun policy would, in fact, convert us into a war zone,
  3. If we wanted to skip to the end, we could just nuke our own cities and get the same benefits the anti-gun left want, since genocide appears to be okay from their point of view.

 

This article originally appeared at Handwaving Freakoutery and is reprinted here with permission. 

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

90 COMMENTS

    • antifa and blm want genocide to impose s0cial justice and bring prosperity to those less fortunate. Notably the antifa and blm liquidators. Look how the BLM executives enriched themselves.

  5. Don’t be fooled. The Ukrainian casualties, both civilian and military, run into the hundreds of thousands. We’re being gaslighted into supporting a stupid war, and, soon enough, our own forces will be involved.

    We have no interest in this conflict. We should get the hell out.

    • As much as I feel for the Ukrainian people you are absolutely correct. The sock puppet just held his news conference where he regurgitated the talking points on the teleprompter. Extra points for not saying “Repeat Line”.

    • USSR/Russia has been an avowed enemy of the united States ever since the end of WWII. The USSR’s stated goal was to spread world communism (and therefore Russian hegemony) world wide–hence the Cold War. Putin is an old school communist. He hates the West, hates Western culture, hates the US, and if he had his druthers, would roll his armies over Europe. The Ukraine “special operation” was an intended coup of the Ukranian government, and after that failed, conquest of at least the entire Donbas, the industrial heartland of Ukraine. Should he succeed, what remains of Ukraine would be almost an agrarian third world economy. Russian soldiers on multiple occasions have expressed their unadulterated hatred of Ukrainians and have imprisoned and executed thousands of civilians, and exported tens of thousands of Ukrainian children to offset Russia’s falling birth rate. Putin twenty years ago published his blue print for domination of Europe, which includes “recovering” Ukraine as part of the territory of Mother Russia, conquest by arms of the eastern portion of Poland (a NATO member), and all or most of Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, as well as the economic domination of the former Soviet satellite states. To put it in simple terms, he wants to re-establish the Soviet state. This is a direct threat to NATO to which the US is treaty bound to respond. Unchecked Russian aggression will not end simply if Ukraine is conquered.
      It seems to me that once upon a time, conservatives and Republicans were avidly proclaiming their opposition to the Soviet State, and were backers of defense spending and support of NATO. What changed? The fact that there is a Democratic President in the Oval Office? From a military perspective, Russia is a clear and present danger that must be stopped.
      The only thing wrong with the latter part of the equation was that European countries, especially Germany, failed to maintain defense spending as required by the NATO treaty resulting in an army, navy and air force that could not possibly repel a Russian attack. SOME effort is being made to correct deficiencies, but that depends on funding the German legislative body has been unwilling to grant.

      • “conquest of at least the entire Donbas, the industrial heartland of Ukraine. Should he succeed, what remains of Ukraine would be almost an agrarian third world economy.”
        I don’t claim to know anything about the Ukrainian economy but wouldn’t the rest of Ukraine do very well with agriculture? And I am in no way condoning Russian aggression. Russia should have been kept in check long ago and I think President Trump pushing for NATO countries to spend more was a good start.

        • muckraker,
          Ukraine has always been known as the most corrupt country in Europe. That’s all you need to know.

          “I think President Trump pushing for NATO countries to spend more was a good start.”

          Yes. They trashed him for calling out other countries. Trump looks like a genius now. He was the only one willing to say it.

      • Sign up, Mark. Put your a$$ where you mouth is. If you’re too old, give your children, male and female, cash for a ticket to Ukraine. No? You’re gonna have someone else’s children fight for your politics?? Coward.

        I’m of the Washington and Jefferson school of American foreign policy … “Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.” America’s superpower status has been a disaster for our Constitutional republic; the metastasizing growth of a cancerous Federal government, a legacy of debt that may yet drag us down, and the loss of freedoms that we may never regain.

      • “I think President Trump pushing for NATO countries to spend more was a good start“

        The members of the NATO alliance had already been increasing their expenditures, here’s numbers from before the Russian invasion:

        “From 2015 to 2019, non-US NATO countries increased defense outlays more than 20 percent to $302 billion, while US defense spending increased from $660 billion to $685 billion. In all, NATO members’ total defense investment could top $1 trillion in 2020. Today, while nine NATO-member countries meet or exceed the 2 percent target (including the US) seven are within 0.5 percent of the target, and all 28 have increased defense spending since 2014.“

        https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/whos-paying-their-share-in-nato/

        And the fact is, the United States was spending most of our defense dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan, rather than bolstering NATO defenses.

        • NATO members pledged to pay 2% of their GDP to the union. Here are the spending figures per year:

          “Europeans and Canada increased their collective spending by a combined by 5.6 percent in the last five years. That includes a 1.7 percent in 2015, 3.0 percent in 2016, 5.7 percent in 2017, and about 4.5 percent each in 2018 and 2019.”

          Further:
          “… in an interview with National Public Radio last summer, Garrett Martin, a NATO scholar at the American University School of International Service, said Trump may deserve credit. “Maybe there’s a bit more urgency now because he’s blunter than his predecessors in criticizing his European partners,” Martin said.

          “The US has also put its money where its mouth is. At the NATO ministerial meeting in Brussels last year, Stoltenberg noted that the US had increased spending on the European Deterrence Initiative by 40 percent since 2016.”

          Quite a different picture than your selective editing presents, isn’t it?

        • MINOR Miner49er. prior to Trump taking office the European member were pay as little as 1% of their GNP towards defense. Due to Trump’s insistence, they brought it up to about 25 to 3%. Which is still below the requirement for membership in NATO.
          Guess I caught you in another one of your Leftist propaganda ploys.

      • The problem with Putin is he thinks he still has the USSR but instead has Russia.

        The Ukrainians are putting up a very good fight for their freedom. They see their former experience with Russia and the USSR as an abusive relationship and don’t want to return.

        The former eastern european client states remember 45 years of living under the USSR and don’t want to return. The USSR drained their economies so much they often went backwards economically. The former East Germany was building steam trains in the 1980s because the USSR restricted the supplies of oil.

        And Ukraine was providing 12% of the world’s grain exports and the loss of this is causing rising food prices and civil unrest across Africa and the Middle East.

      • Afghanistan, that’s what changed it. YOU go fight Ivan if you want. I’m not and I’m not going to encourage my son to join when he’s old enough. What good is a nuclear deterrent if we are going to go over there and die? You and your’s first, I don’t have a neighbor worth dying for.

      • this war in Ukraine has decimated the russian military and completely destroyed their reputation as a feared foe…at least conventionally…it serves our interests to have it continue as long as it’s their blood on the battlefield and not ours…

    • “We’re being gaslighted into supporting a stupid war”

      Of course you’re right, the policy of appeasement is much more rational, we should just grant to Putin the Danzig corridor, Czechoslovakia and the Sudetenland.

      I’m sure Herr Putin will stop there, after all he’s a reasonable man, right Chamberlain?

      “Those who refuse to remember the lessons of history, are condemned to repeat them.”

      • Putin !== Stalin.
        It’s 2023 not the 1940s.
        Putin has expressed no concern in the Czech republic, or Slovakia, which is more German than it is Russian.

        And your statement was over the top exaggerated nonsense. Throwing out some nice quote you heard somewhere doesn’t make your exaggeration any more valid either.

  6. “Mathematics seems to indicate the following:

    No, we do not currently live in a war zone,”

    I am glad someone finally admitted that we do not live in a war zone, and there is no need for Americans to walk around with their tacticool cosplay fashion accessories.

    So much for the right wing narrative that we need automatic weapons to protect ourselves against roving bands of misguided minority yutes.

    • The conclusion is always the same, isn’t it?
      “It’s a warzone out there so we must get rid of the gunzz!!!!”
      “It’s peaceful out there so there’s no need for the gunzz!!!”

      Funny how that works.

      • “Previously to this offer into NATO membership, the Russians were never seriously concerned about what was going on in the Ukraine“

        Unbelievable ignorance, does the word ‘Crimea’ mean anything to you?

        Another word you should become familiar with, ‘Holodomor’.

        “The Holodomor, also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The Holodomor was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union“

        • Don’t you have any children that you can send to Europe to fight for America’s honor? Any nieces or nephews? Any grandchildren?

          Or would you rather sit in your home, all safe and sound, while the nuclear missiles fly?

        • what was happening in the Ukraine was a political game between east and west…with Putin trying to install a puppet regime that he could control like Belarus…he failed in that effort and…probably due to very bad advice and intelligence…chose to exercise the military option…what he’s trying to do now is make the best of a very bad situation

    • The Democrats are responsible for this war. First it was Bill Clinton who told the Ukrainians to give up their nuclear self-defense in exchange for American protection??? And then it was the Obama Administration that began making noises to have Ukraine become part of NATO.

      Which the Russians considered to be a direct threat to them. Previously to this offer into NATO membership, the Russians were never seriously concerned about what was going on in the Ukraine.
      The democrats/s0ci@list pr0gressives are War lovers.

      • Not true. Putin has been after Ukraine for decades irrespective of any Western politics. This is demonstrated by his willingness, at risk to the Russian economy and perhaps his own life, to lose billions in foreign trade, sacrifice billions in war machines and ammunition, and to sacrifice tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Russian fodder to achieve his stated goal. Indeed, for years Russia prior to the invasion plotted to monopolize the supply of artillery rounds being sold by former soviet states with the goal of depriving Ukraine of the ability to fight back and to resupply. For years, Putin has worked to undermine the E.U., to disrupt the vote in the US and to sow chaos wherever his hackers can manage to do so.

        Russia has ALWAYS been paranoid–which is what happens, I suppose, when you get invaded a few times, and why they tried to maintain control of the satellite states so as to have a buffer from a direct invasion of Mother Russia. Russia had no more right or reason to invade the Donbas in 2014 than Hitler had to invade the Sudetenland in 1938.

      • Chris,
        You forgot the part about Democrats making Russia public enemy number one because…

        a) The Dems didn’t want Trump to succeed at what Hillary tried and failed, which was working with Russia,

        and b) They lied about Russia collusion and foreign interference in the election as if Russia could install Trump as president. They had to trash Russia for years to keep their lie going.

        Now tens of thousands of people have been killed. Millions have been displaced. A country has been decimated. This could have been avoided. Once it wasn’t avoided, it still could have been stopped earlier than what we’re seeing. Where’s the push for peace? Who thinks our Puppet-in-chief is even capable of that? But how would we pay to rebuild a country if it isn’t destroyed first? That’s coming. (More) riches await for a $elect few.

      • is NATO an offensive threat?…or a defensive organization?….Putin had delusions of greatness and felt he could restore the former soviet empire…that whole idea now appears to be crashing and burning with NATO now stronger than ever with the added bonus that a russian failure may give pause to the chinese attempts at aggression…we hope…

    • “So much for the right wing narrative that we need automatic weapons to protect ourselves against roving bands of misguided minority yutes.”

      You’re confused — again. There’s no “right-wing narrative” pushing full-auto weapons.

      And the people most afraid of “minority yutes” are Donks Jesse Jackson, Hillary Clinton and Zhou BiDeng. They all said so.

      • Why do Dems call Justice Thomas Uncle Tom? Why did they send a copy of Uncle Tom’s Cabin to a black Republican congressman? They hate black conservatives the worst because they think they own them. “If you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black!”

    • It isn’t the bill of needs, miner. I have the right to go armed. Period.

      And you fascists have no right to stop me.

    • Nice try PROPAGANDA MINISTER #2!!!

      Your comments prove you have ZERO KNOWLEDGE ON FIREARMS!!

      How much are you being “PAID” to “TROLL” gun sites and who are your “EMPLOYERS”??

      • infiltrating conservative websites is now SOP for the left,,,,but returning the favor can get you shut down pretty quickly…they’re here because TTAG permits them to be…probably for the clickbait they provide….

        • infiltrating conservative websites is now SOP for the left

          Yeah, that and enticing national cable platforms to cancel Conservative News/Opinion providers…

    • MINOR Miner49er, sorry but there is a drastic increase in crime. Apparently you equate the crime rate with war? No wonder we think you are delusional.

    • I am glad someone finally admitted that we do not live in a war zone, and there is no need for Americans to walk around with their tacticool cosplay fashion accessories.

      No we don’t live in a warzone. 6.5 deaths per 100k is not a warzone. Totally ridiculous is what it is. No most people don’t walk around with their gear, because they live in a safe place. That said, this isn’t a nation of “needs.” Nations of “need” (to each according to their need) are marxist shitholes. So if you want to carry your gear, or If you are in a relatively dangerous neighborhood, and you want to carry your gear, by all means do.

      So much for the right wing narrative that we need automatic weapons to protect ourselves against roving bands of misguided minority yutes.

      Well, we don’t “need” automatic weapons for that. You keep graviting towards “needs” which seems to be a common problem for you. Some may feel it necessary to defend themselves from minority yutes however. Don’t believe me? Go online and google “subway attack”, and tell me when you find a white gang. I’ll wait. Is race the problem? No. Is the degree of melanin in one’s skin the problem? No! Otherwise there would be a bunch of dark people from India there too. No – The problem is cultural.

  7. What percentage of these American deaths are suicides??? Are they 85%? Are they 95%? They tried this same BS back in the ’70s. Back then over 80% of the deaths were suicides. That Time magazine cover story from back then was BS. Just like this is BS in the 21st century.

    • Using the bogus GVA number for 2022 (20,138 – which excludes suicides), and actual percentages in 2022

      In 2022 – 57% of the official homicide stats were justified legal self/home defense by defensive gun use by ordinary law abiding citizens (AKA ‘justified homicide’ – which is not criminal homicide. This is a 6% increase over 2021).

      In 2022 – 18% of the the official homicide stats were gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal shootings Criminal Homicide (e.g. murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter)

      In 2022 – 8% of the the official homicide stats were justified legal police shootings (AKA ‘justified homicide’ – which is not criminal homicide)

      20,138 X .57 = 11,478.66 (rounded = 11,479) —- justified legal self/home defense by defensive gun use by ordinary law abiding citizens

      20,138 X .08 = 1,611.04 (rounded = 1,611) —- justified legal police shootings.

      20,138 X .18 = 3,624.84 (rounded = 3,625) —- gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal shootings

      11,479 + 1,611 = 13,090 justified legal shootings a combination of ordinary law abiding citizens and police, justified homicide.

      20,138 – 13,090 (justified legal shootings, a combination of ordinary law abiding citizens and police, justified homicide) = 7,048 criminal homicides in 2022

      7,048 – 3,625 (gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal shootings, criminal homicide) = 3,423 criminal homicides not gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal.

      3,625 + 3,423 = 7,048 criminal homicides in 2022 and not 20,138 like GVA is trying to claim by implying and not differentiating like they should.

      • correction…”…self/home defense…”

        should have been

        “…self/home/others defense…”

        Additionally, 57% of that appearing in official stats as suicide by firearm in 2022 turned out to not be suicide.

        Of that 57%:

        * 33% were actually drug overdose. What? How can that be? That 33% had a gun in the home (by some manner, either owned by someone in the home or they bought it in from outside the home) and with them, but before they tried to use the gun they took a massive amount of drugs attempting to overdose. Apparently, they wanted a back up in case the overdose didn’t work. This indicates they were intent on suicide if they had a gun or not. But where does the gun come into play here? When they were found dead of drug overdose the gun was laying there, had not been used for the suicide – the medical examination combined with the police report report listed the gun as a contributing factor to the death because it was present thus ruled ‘suicide by firearm’. This pretty closely matches the concept found in over 100,000 drug over dose suicides annually (nationwide) where ~74% of them had access to a gun but chose drug overdose instead.

        *The rest of that 57% (excluding the 33% above) was accident or criminal homicide staged to look like suicide.

  8. “But the anti-gun crowd loves Europe, shithole genocide and all, so maybe they’re okay with genocide as a policy.”

    pretty much dacian

  10. WAR ZONE UUUH , UKRIANIAN ,
    USA HIGHWAYS ,
    MORE PEOPLE KILLED ON ROADS WAYS THAN IN ALL THE WARS …

  11. I’ve seen a war zone. Not even chicago matches it.

    What we have in America is blue cities where the .gov refuses to do its duty.

    • And we all know that happens because they want it to happen. If they didn’t want it to happen, then they would focus on solving that particular problem. They know how to solve it because we’ve used that playbook before.

  13. I don’t think conscripting everyone to die for borders is the same as pivoting toward civilian firearm ownership. Pushing propaganda and jingoism onto masses of idiots to goad them into dying (and forcing to execute anyone who doesn’t buy the propaganda) for the benefit of the power and wealth for a handful of people isn’t all that different than what happened at Jonestown.

    Here, for example, maybe an argument can be made for defending the “American way of life” but is what’s left of it really worth dying for? I’m not going to shed blood for the insider traders, 1%, groomers, addicts, basement-dwellers or street-shitters. What kind of a slogan is “Fight for your country, some 30 year old gamer on anxiety medication living with his parents is counting you!”

  14. In the Vietnam War 58,209 Americans were killed “OVER A 10 YEAR PERIOD”

    On average 40,000 U.S. civilians are killed by gunfire IN “1 YEAR IN CAPITALVANIA”.
    IN 2021 THERE WERE 45,034 PEOPLE KILLED BY GUNFIRE.

    YOU ARE FKING “A” RIGHT THAT CAPITALVANIA IS A FKING WAR ZONE.

    In comparison there were 43,000 auto deaths in 2021 proving you are more likely to die by gunfire in Capitalvania than be killed in an auto accident. AGAIN FKING “A” RIGHT CAPITALVANIA IS A WAR ZONE WHERE LIFE IS CONSIDERED CHEAP AND EXPENDABLE.

    Cars ae necessary for life in Capitalvania because of the lack of civilized European Socialist Public Transpiration.

    AND COMPARED TO THE INSANE WORLD OF CAPITALVANIA GUN DEATHS ARE MINISCULE IN SOCIALIST EUROPE AND IN ASIA BECAUSE OF STRICT GUN CONTROL LAWS. NO AMOUNT OF LYING BY CRAZED PARANOID FANATICS LIKE BOOGER BRAIN CAN REFUTE HIS.

    https://www.rd.com/article/gun-violence-statistics/

    Studies show that death by suicide rises dramatically when guns are present in the home and few survive a suicide by a firearm compared to other methods people try and use as all First Responders will testify. Again no amount of bold face lying by crazed paranoid nut cases like Booger Brain can refute these horrific facts.

    https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html

    IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO LIVE TO AN OLD AGE LEAVE CAPITALVANIA TO LIVE IN THE UKRAINIAN WAR ZONE, ITS SAFER.

    • And Russia has lost more soldiers killed in Ukraine in less than a year than the USSR did in Afghanistan in nearly a decade.

      So much for “The World’s second strongest military”. It is a creaky edifice rotted by corruption.

    • @dacian

      “Booger Brain can refute these horrific facts.”

      Booger Brain doesn’t need to refute them, your doing a fine job with refuting them. did you even read and comprehend what you screeched?

      • Dacian’s recent post (and I wish I could call it last post) was made by Hillbilly meth and Thunderbird.

        • Herr Hauptmann Southern Cross spoken like a true jackbooted Nazi. You scream about the Second Amendment and then out of the other side of your jackbooted mouth you scream you will destroy the 1st Amendment because just like a good Nazi anyone who does not give the stiff armed salute and tow the party line will not be tolerated.

        • You need to leave the basement and see reality does not match your perceptions.

          And as for your 3 friends and their firearms handling, they are not regular gun owners.

        • dacain, the DUNDERHEAD. Don’t you just hate it when your posts make you out to be the fool you actually are?

    • Nice try “PROPAGANDA MINISTER #1” British Subject!!!!

      How much are you being “PAID” to “TROLL” gun sites and who are your “EMPLOYERS”???

    • Even with the breakdown the author gave, with data you can check and verify, you still go to the grand lie about the US.

      “IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO LIVE TO AN OLD AGE LEAVE CAPITALVANIA TO LIVE IN THE UKRAINIAN WAR ZONE, ITS SAFER.”

      I can offer you a first class seat to any place where American Airlines flies near to Ukraine. Once you arrive to that city, you have to make your own way to Ukraine where you believe you are safer. I doubt they have the same welfare benefits we have here, the social safety net there is a bit overwhelmed I understand considering what may or may not be a warzone.

    • dacian, the DUNDERHEAD, you are full of donkey dust. It seems that you are including all the “gun deaths” including incidents of SELF DEFENSE. You people need to get life.

    • has it ever crossed your mind that people may not want to live in a debilitating condition or endless pain or die a slow horrible death?….what people choose to do with their lives is intensely personal and none of our business…even some on the left have been pushing for assisted suicide…something doctors used to do routinely when someone was diagnosed as terminal…having actually seen someone take their life with a firearm, I can attest it was quick and painless….check out the ending to “Million Dollar Baby”….it may alter your perspective somewhat…

    • Dacian is so full of crap it’s ridiculous.

      In 2020, the USA intentional homicide rate was 6.5/100k
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

      That’s 21,775 homicides. So I don’t know where your 45k came from. I want a source, not “readers digest.”

      Now… continuing…

      In 1975, the USA intentional homicide rate was 10/100k:
      https://i.insider.com/516d7862ecad04cc47000003?width=800&format=jpeg&auto=webp

      In 1975, there were 211 million people in the USA.

      So in 1975, there were 21,100 homicides. Pretty much on par with 2020 for totals, except with a worse rate of homicides. It has been like this for a long time. But no one called it a “war zone” back then. Because 10 homicides every 100,000 people is not a war zone. That’s preposterous.

      Dacian, no one here is interested in your crap. And your main stream media propaganda is not persuading anyone.

      43,000 people died of car violence according to your own source. What are we going to do about car violence Dacian?

      What about breast cancer violence???? (43,000 deaths)
      Pancreatic cancer violence???? (49,000 deaths)

      Just like car violence and cancer violence, there is no such thing as gun violence. There is only violence. Committed by people. Making bad decisions. The problem with homicides and suicides isn’t that Americans own guns. It’s that some people make the decision to kill others or themselves. Now take your dumb shit and FO.

    • Cars ae necessary for life in Capitalvania because of the lack of civilized European Soacilist Public Transpiration.

      No. Car are popular because the USA was and is a rich place full of rich people. Even the poor people here are rich. Everyone has their own car, because they can enjoy a life of luxury. If I had a choice between public transportation and my own personal car, I would choose my car, and so would almost everyone else.

      IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO LIVE TO AN OLD AGE LEAVE CAPITALVANIA TO LIVE IN THE UKRAINIAN WAR ZONE, ITS SAFER.

      Then go there and GTFOutta here! We like “capitalvania.” Leave us alone, you psychotic tyrant. If you want Commievania, then FO and go there! Nobody wants what you are selling. “No” means “No” you freak.

      • I prefer private owned vehicles, so I don’t have to worry about having to deal with morons (like daciboy) that think they are smarter than everyone else…

    • 58,220 Americans, 2 million civilians (North and South), 1.1 million NVA and VC, 250,000 ARVN… 3 million 408 thousand 220 total deaths in Vietnam (including 220,000 assassinated by the VC), if you are going to put it in your mouth get it right or leave it alone… It is sadly pathetic the way you clowns try to play with numbers and constantly fail…

    • “IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO LIVE TO AN OLD AGE LEAVE CAPITALVANIA TO LIVE IN THE UKRAINIAN WAR ZONE, ITS SAFER.”

      Great suggestion, dacian the demented dipshit!!! When do you leave? Need us to set up a “GoFuncMe” to pay for your ticket?? I’ll kick in, big time. How can we miss you, if you won’t leave??

      And I won’t even mock you for the abject STUPIDITY of conflacting SUICIDES with “confirmed kills” in a war zone – because you’re too f***ing ignorant to understand the distinction.

      You remain too stupid to insult.

  16. Most of the time people who are not gun owners are completely ignorant of the issues and they do one of two things particularly if they are anti-gunners (who may own weapons themselves). They either believe everything they hear that favors their point of few or they are too lazy to research the truth because they don’t really care if the are wrong or not. Alec Baldwin would be a classic case. Anti-second amendment and he is still going around saying he had nothing to do with his shooting even though he shot the gun. Talk about denial. Ignore these people, don’t obey any laws that are unconstitutional, don’t let law enorcement in your home without a warrant. Fight back.

  17. Using the bogus GVA number for 2022 (20,138 – which excludes suicides), and actual percentages in 2022

    In 2022 – 57% of the official homicide stats were justified legal self/home defense by defensive gun use by ordinary law abiding citizens (AKA ‘justified homicide’ – which is not criminal homicide. This is a 6% increase over 2021).

    In 2022 – 18% of the the official homicide stats were gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal shootings Criminal Homicide (e.g. murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter)

    In 2022 – 8% of the the official homicide stats were justified legal police shootings (AKA ‘justified homicide’ – which is not criminal homicide)

    20,138 X .57 = 11,478.66 (rounded = 11,479) —- justified legal self/home defense by defensive gun use by ordinary law abiding citizens

    20,138 X .08 = 1,611.04 (rounded = 1,611) —- justified legal police shootings.

    20,138 X .18 = 3,624.84 (rounded = 3,625) —- gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal shootings

    11,479 + 1,611 = 13,090 justified legal shootings a combination of ordinary law abiding citizens and police, justified homicide.

    20,138 – 13,090 (justified legal shootings, a combination of ordinary law abiding citizens and police, justified homicide) = 7,048 criminal homicides in 2022

    7,048 – 3,625 (gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal shootings, criminal homicide) = 3,423 criminal homicides not gang/criminal-on-gang/criminal.

    3,625 + 3,423 = 7,048 criminal homicides in 2022 and not 20,138 like GVA is trying to claim by implying and not differentiating like they should.

    • correction…”…self/home defense…”

      should have been

      “…self/home/others defense…”

    • additionally, 57% of that appearing in official stats as suicide by firearm in 2022 turned out to not be suicide.

      Of that 57%:

      * 33% were actually drug overdose. What? How can that be? That 33% had a gun in the home (by some manner, either owned by someone in the home or they bought it in from outside the home) and with them, but before they tried to use the gun they took a massive amount of drugs attempting to overdose. Apparently, they wanted a back up in case the overdose didn’t work. This indicates they were intent on suicide if they had a gun or not. But where does the gun come into play here? When they were found dead of drug overdose the gun was laying there, had not been used for the suicide – the medical examination combined with the police report report listed the gun as a contributing factor to the death because it was present thus ruled ‘suicide by firearm’. This pretty closely matches the concept found in over 100,000 drug over dose suicides annually (nationwide) where ~74% of them had access to a gun but chose drug overdose instead.

      *The rest of that 57% was accident or criminal homicide staged to look like suicide.

      • Sorry butIhave sero sympathy for drug users.It’s no good targetting the growers, the manufacurers, the ditributors orthe pushers. As long as r the DEMAND is high enough and the rewards great enough thedrugs iundustry will survive and prosper. The Law enforcement agencies worldwide only ever scratch the surface
        The REAL Targets should, no not should, MUST, be the END USERS’ So lets start withmnthe very simple expedient of, after an informative advertisement campaign, NOT offering any sort od Re-hab after a single treatment. Lets put bans on certain employments suchn as for instance the FINANCE industry for any one usin COCAINE which was responsible for many of the extremely rash descisions made that precipitated the 2008 financial crash,,.It’s common practice, is it not, to ban smoking in public areas and places of leisure, entetrtainment and of employment and try getting a PILOTS job if you are an alcoholic.’
        [In the USA it might be an idea to ban absolutely anybody who has a single conviction for drugs misuse from owning a firearm for life.
        IF these or anyother Draconian measures seem not to work then then bodies are just ‘cleared up’ and commited to mass graves.
        AS for the WAR ZONE question consider this. The number of Deaths as a result of gun-crime in the USA now exceed’s 25,000 per year and by 2035, it has been estimated, that at the present rate it will exceed 35,000 per annum.
        Have you any idea when US Military Casulaties exceeded 25,000 in a single year.
        Just take a look at the TOTAL number of MILITARY casualties in the two major WAR ZONES that the USA has been involved in in the last 30 years IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN as against the over 300,000 at the very least caused by gun crime.
        Whilst you are at take a look at the COST of gun crime in per annum the USA- the exact figure is not so clear but estimates are out there in the Public Domain and the figure generally arrived at is over HALF THE DEFENCE Bill. But bYOU do the research and you make up your own mind- but I’d bet my boots it’s a damned sight more than most of you think.
        I seem to be one of your few responents from over the Pond, and no b doubt you will be thinking, ‘what the hell has it got to do with me anyway’, but if I can access this sort of information then you certainly can.

        • “I seem to be one of your few responents from over the Pond, and no b doubt you will be thinking, ‘what the hell has it got to do with me anyway’”

          I’d say that most of us here are thinking “what the hell is he talking about?” after trying to decipher one of your incomprehensible rants.

        • The number of Deaths as a result of gun-crime in the USA now exceed’s 25,000 per year and by 2035, it has been estimated, that at the present rate it will exceed 35,000 per annum. Have you any idea when US Military Casulaties exceeded 25,000 in a single year…

          …what the hell has it got to do with me anyway’, but if I can access this sort of information then you certainly can.

          We don’t care about the information you are pushing. In my rural area, everyone has guns. Everybody. Nobody is killing anyone in my area, and rural areas in general. Murder is mostly a inner city problem, amongst inner city elements, amongst inner city people and criminals. “My guns” aren’t the problem. The problem is shitty people in the shitty neighborhoods in shitty inner cities. It’s a people problem. A cultural problem. Not a “my guns” problem. Mkay????

      • clarification for : “the medical examination combined with the police report report listed the gun as a contributing factor to the death because it was present thus ruled ‘suicide by firearm’.”

        Ok, here’s how it happens even though its not a firearm suicide, basically: CDC/government and states do their official final stats by algorithm in their systems. They are specific for each category of death. But, because they are specific they are set up to look for key words in the death reports as they are filed electronically by computer. For example, if the category being worked on at the time is ‘firearms suicide’ the algorithm may look for key words (or ‘checked’ boxes for) ‘firearm’ – ‘contributing’ – ’cause’ – ‘death’ – so finding these it spits out ‘firearm suicide’ and that goes in the stats but if you go look at the actual report you find the gun wasn’t actually used for the suicide. Humans are suppose to set these systems up and review the data to make sure the result is correct, but mostly they don’t – the systems and humans simply look at the death result (e.g. ‘suicide’) and its gets thrown into the suicide algorithm.

        And that’s how…

        57% of that appearing in official stats as suicide by firearm in 2022 turned out to not be suicide.

        33% of that 57% were actually drug overdose. What? How can that be? That 33% had a gun in the home (by some manner, either owned by someone in the home or they bought it in from outside the home) and with them, but before they tried to use the gun they took a massive amount of drugs attempting to overdose. Apparently, they wanted a back up in case the overdose didn’t work. This indicates they were intent on suicide if they had a gun or not. But where does the gun come into play here? When they were found dead of drug overdose the gun was laying there, had not been used for the suicide – the medical examination combined with the police report report listed the gun as a contributing factor to the death because it was present thus ruled ‘suicide by firearm’.

        Its basically the same screwed up system for initially ruled suicide but later found to be accident or criminal homicide staged to look like suicide. They get the initial finding and process is as a firearms suicide. But when its changed later discovered to have been accident or murder, its then processed as accident or murder separately, and the initial suicide ruling that went into official stats is never removed because its a different category and humans don’t go back and remove it.

        So we end up with falsely inflated ‘firearm suicide’ official stats that anti-gun likes to throw around.

  18. 120,000 dead from fentanyl overdose in 2022 and over 379 million doses confiscated thanks to the open borders and catch and release of drug runners in the big city prosecutors (and up from 37,000 deaths in 2020)… Yeah, we’re in a War Zone and it’s being orchestrated by Brandons handlers… That 120,000 is nearly THREE times the TOTAL number of gun related deaths for that period…

  19. Those who say the US is a warzone fall into one of 3 categories:

    1. Those who have never been to a war zone.
    2. Willfully ignorant and easily manipulated.
    3. Incredibly dedicated to their cause enough to lie.

  20. I just want to know why the author suggests we start by nuking Baltimore when we get the biggest drop in crime rate by starting at the bottom of the list.

    • it’s cumulative, the final numbers (4213/26%/19,858,520) are a sum total of all those previous gains…

  21. has it ever crossed your mind that people may not want to live in a debilitating condition or endless pain or die a slow horrible death?….what people choose to do with their lives is intensely personal and none of our business…even some on the left have been pushing for assisted suicide…something doctors used to do routinely when someone was diagnosed as terminal…having actually seen someone take their life with a firearm, I can attest it was quick and painless….check out the ending to “Million Dollar Baby”….it may alter your perspective somewhat…

Comments are closed.