In mid-May we were the first to break the news of Intuit’s poor treatment of Gunsite Academy. Today we have an update, one that’s both surprising and validating to the importance of fighting for our Second Amendment rights in all facets of our lives and business practices.
On May 18, I reported the following:
A couple months ago Gunsite decided to make a change to a new credit card processor, QuickBooks. Ten days ago the Gunsite bookkeeper found herself on the receiving end of a phone call from QuickBooks. QuickBooks felt there was “trouble” because they realized Gunsite sold knives and guns on their website. This, the QuickBooks rep said, meant sales weren’t face to face and “kids could buy them”. Gunsite took the time to patiently, politely educate the rep on how FFLs work and explain the laws and processes of these sales. Once it was laid out the rep backpedaled, saying it was all right after all.
Then, a week ago – May 11th, 2018 – Gunsite received another call from QuickBooks. This time, QuickBooks/Intuit informed them, they were immediately ceasing to do business with Gunsite. At first blush this was frustrating news, but it could be handled. Then came the other piece of news: in addition to cutting business ties with Gunsite because they sell firearms, QuickBooks/Intuit refused to release the money they were currently processing from sales already made. Sales made at Gunsite in the period QuickBooks controlled the academy’s credit card sales amounted to tens of thousands of dollars from not only purchases made in the Pro Shop – including hats, shirts, bumper stickers, and coffee mugs – but also money paid for classes taken on gun safety and marksmanship.
Yes, you read that right. Tens of thousands of dollars in sales of products and classes, and Intuit refused to release money rightfully belonging to Gunsite to them. Instead, Intuit stated they would refund those monies to the credit card holders.
Thus began a back-and-forth between not only Gunsite and Intuit, but the entire firearms industry and the financial industry. The story immediately went viral, going from our piece here at TTAG to NRA TV.
TTAG readers and Gunsite alums began canceling their accounts with Intuit, first in a trickle, then a landslide. Stories of similar poor treatment at the hands of Intuit came out from Lone Wolf Distributors, Flint River Armory, and Honor Defense.
We, as an industry, rallied. Today we have a victory.
Minutes ago, Ken Campbell, Gunsite Academy’s Chief Operating Officer, contacted me with an update of the Intuit situation. He then sent me the following statement:
Gunsite Academy, Inc. recently had issues with credit card processing company Intuit. Intuit suspended Gunsite’s account as Intuit does not believe firearms sales are made “face-to-face” and was in violation of their policy. Gunsite recognizes Intuit as a privately owned and operated company and can practice business as they wish. However, monies collected for services rendered (firearms safety and training as well as sales of items from shirts and coffee mugs to firearms) were returned to the customer and not processed through to Gunsite.
Gunsite spent untold man hours contacting clients, explaining the situation with Intuit, and asking for repayment since their payments were refunded to them. There were also untold staff hours, including consultants, to locate a new processing company that is pro-gun.
During this time, Intuit reached out to Gunsite Academy Inc. owner Owen Mills and Chief Operating Officer Ken Campbell. Intuit was polite and professional during the series of calls with their senior management. These calls were at Intuit’s request and they asked to be educated in how gun sales are done. The heavily regulated process was explained in detail to Intuit senior staff. We also invited them to Gunsite to have the experience first-hand. Also explained was Gunsite’s issues with the monies being returned to the customer as opposed to processed through to Gunsite and both companies walking away.
On Tuesday afternoon June 12, 2018, Intuit contacted Gunsite again and offered a fair compensation for the losses experienced by Gunsite Academy, Inc. for the many hours spent sorting this issue out. This offer was made in good faith and not in response to threats of litigation, etc. They explained they were trying to make things right with Gunsite.
Gunsite appreciates the remuneration made by Intuit to help defray our costs and more importantly we hope that the experience will help them better understand the firearms industry and how sales are made. The firearms industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries and the customer base must follow stringent federal and state regulations as all retail transactions are face-to-face, including a mandatory Federal NICS background check.
Thanks are also offered to the Gunsite customers and firearms industry partners for their patience and support during this time. The “Gunsite Family” and firearms industry were very supportive from “re-paying” their bills to contacting Intuit expressing their frustration and displeasure.
We look forward to having this issue behind us and refocusing our energies and efforts to continue to offer the best world class firearms and safety training.
Campbell tells me, “This was an unexpected turn of events. We hope this could be the beginning of a turnaround in the business attacks of the Second Amendment.”
Indeed. A victory for Gunsite Academy is a win for the industry at large. Keep fighting for our Second Amendment rights. When we band together we’re a force to be reckoned with. Together we make change happen. We need to keep at it.
Although this is a fantastic victory, it’s not the time to rest on our laurels. It’s time to step up our efforts. Our rights are worth it.
Great for Gunsite. But as for me. Intuit can shove it and there business where the sun don’t shine.
Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement to Intuit. Specifically, Quickbooks?
Mandatory: Pro Second Amendment! Pro Liberty! and Pro Country!
Well the CEO of Wells Fargo say he wouldn’t bow to the anti’s teacher association…..I’ve been with them for over 25 yrs.
Quickbooks is an Intuit product.
Check it out at https://www.intuit.com/
So, are they still refusing gun related business? Wouldn’t mind being able to use mint again :/
Yes I forgot about my MINT belonging to intuit. I’ll go take care of that right now!
Intuit probably had listened to the shrill crying from the media about how anyone can get a machine gun on any street corner and use it to kill an entire schoolyard of kids and they originally believed it, taking the medias word at face value. After they finally learned the truth and probably checked into it they realized that they had totally over reacted and sanity finally started to prevail.
Truth reaching the brains of Leftists and Statists is like drilling through solid rock with a hand drill. On the other hand, put a (D) behind your name and say something stupid on TV and their black, rotten hearts will open up to you.
“Truth reaching the brains of Leftists and Statists is like drilling through solid rock with a hand drill”.
Nu-uh! Not even close. A hand drill is waaay too easy. More like a fork. Yeah, that’s the meal ticket. 2A’s get forked while lib corps are spooning.Lib corps get to smile, while we get the blisters.
I doubt that. I find it more likely that once their lawyers found out they Intuit had refunded customer’s monies for products/services already rendered without involving Gunsite at all……they wigged the F out since they knew they didn’t have a legal leg to stand on.
I’m guessing whatever happened originally on intuit’s side was done at a lower-mid management level, and higher levels didn’t realize what actually had been done until it was out on the internet.
Let’s note a few things though:
1. Gunsite seemingly has handled this situation with as much professionalism and care as could be expected, and has shown me that they are indeed a great business. Although no numbers were given, I also want to believe that most people who were wrongly refunded monies were willing to pay their fair share back to Gunsite. Assuming that’s true, that speaks volumes for POTG vs other areas of life.
2. This has been a huge advertising blitz for Gunsite as well, and if this causes them to have any extra business going forward, they deserve it.
3. This will have a net negative for Intuit. Lost sales/customers, legal fees, compensation to gunsite, etc. Good.
we will not go quietly into the night. no sir.
Still not going to use intuit or anything associated with this company
BOYCOTT INTUIT
Intuit can go to hell. They tried to ruin a business because they think all gun owners are criminals. They’re uniformed, biased jerks.
Hm, I’d like to know whether Gunsite will continue doing
business with Intuit or if they’ve found other arrangements.
We have moved to a company called ‘Blue Dog’. Very gun friendly.
I hope they are friendlier than the so-called blue dog democrats!
That’s excellent news. I hope we hear more about Blue Dog.
Ken Campbell is a rock star. Keep up the good work.
… from one of your former students from Boone County.
Gunsight is being way too gracious. I note that in their statement, there’s nothing about Intuit reinstating their account and continue processing transactions, and the compensation offered is the LEAST they can do after holding, then reversing transactions that were already in process.
I don’t see this as a victory, and this changes nothing with respect to Intuit’s anti-Second Amendment and anti-gun business stance.
Screw Intuit with a ten foot stick.
Companies having confidence in the financial transactions of their business is no small matter. Intuit just reversing transactions like that should be scary to any business that uses their transaction services. How many other businesses might suddenly discover that their sales were reversed and they’re suddenly in financial trouble? All of this based on the direction that the political winds are blowing? Given how many little things liberal snowflakes get upset about these days, that’s a slippery slope to head down. For a less established company this could be devastating.
I give it 4 more years before credit card processors are refusing to work with Chic-fil-a for refusing to tow the official party tolerance doctrine.
Then I’ll have to start using cash at chick fil a, cause they’re awesome. Polite staff, good consistent food quality. I have 4 kids.
Gunsite’s biggest concern right is being made whole financially. The best/easiest way to do that is work with Intuit and be somewhat gracious, at least until that money is in hand.
Yes, if they went to court they could not be gracious and still probably win, but that could take years and years, and I do not know their financial situation, and there’s always a risk of losing in court, lawyer fees, etc, vs just getting paid now.
Great comment Steve, I read that Rahm only recently got the 7+ figure bill for the McDonald issue that Chicago started. Takes a long time for those chickens to come home but when they do (or if they do) the bill can be a big pill to swallow.
Short version:
Intuit’s lawyers told them to act before the lawsuit they would lose.
Yep, they no doubt were told by their lawyers that they were going to be sued for malfeasance and fraud, and that they were absolutely certain to loose, like with triple damages. Screw Intuit, Quickbooks, and the horse they rode in on.
The legal team probably was concerned about not only a lawsuit but also the fact that they committed financial crime by stealing money. Since credit cards were involved it may technically be a massive case of credit fraud with the credit card processor committing the fraud. It may also qualify as wire fraud and/or interfering with interstate commerce as well as grand theft. The fact that they did this was probably to reduce the risk that Gunsite would press charges for any and all the crimes committed by Intuit when fraudulently refunding money.
As is the case with people in general, Intuit’s first tantrum with Gunsite showed how they really felt, no matter how much backpedaling they did later.
Not a thin dime to Intuit.
“This offer was made in good faith and not in response to threats of litigation, etc.”
Keep saying that, I’m sure its the truth :p
I wouldn’t take them back. I’m working on ditching them right now.
Intuit can go blow a herd of goats to try to get their self-esteem back.
For a company named Intuit they have NO intuition. A pox on them and everyone connected with them. No Quackbook’s for me!
I’d personall say
Shove the offer and see you in court for the 20 or so million I will sue you for…have nice nightmares when your other customers realize that they can get FUCKED just like this by you!…and leave too!
Then call the media all day and night to pass the word on every TV show there is!
“This offer was made in good faith and not in response to threats of litigation, etc. ”
Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! Stop! You’re killing me! That’s the funniest ting I’ve ever read!
Intuit realized they broke the law by returning the monies ode back to customers, this is their attempt to get ahead of litigation. What they did amounts to embezzlement. I would bet that there is a non-disclosure agreement on the full details of what is going down here.
I guess I need some education on the firearms industry, too. How do firearme regulations and FFLs impede minors from buying knives online from Gunsite, which was part of Intuit’s original objection?
Any of you smart guys know a realistic small business accounting software alternative to Quickbooks?
One that accountants will actually work with?
This.
As an independent consultant I absolutely depend on QuickBooks, TurboTax, and the rest of Intuit’s self employed / small business suite, though I don’t use the payment processing service they used to trip up Gunsite.
I’m willing to take the weekly productivity hit of using standalone products from various vendors that aren’t as well integrated (e.g. csv ETLs), and my activity is ordinary enough (nothing specialized) to move if I can find a more accommodating vendor. But sometimes I use outside help – bookkeeper, accountant, tax advisor – and they universally default to QuickBooks.
What are the alternatives in the small business market space?
Sage 50.
Client Write-Up if your accountant uses Drake Software ( a conservative Christian company that would never dream of cheating anybody, especially gun owners).
Now now, let’s let bygones be bygones. After all, one should be forgiving of our enemies. The more gracious we appear, the more foolish Intuit appears. Plus, it would go a long way to making sure they don’t do it again.
But secretly, I agree. Screw Intuit with a ten foot pole. 😊
Normally I would agree. I believe the stick only works when it’s paired with the carrot. If we only punish companies but don’t acknowledge when they recognize their mistake and try to make it right, then they have no reason to even bother making it right.
BUT (don’t you love those) I think once in a while an example needs to be made. And a good public one.
I don’t want companies apologizing to us for discriminating against us. No. I want them to not even think of doing it in the first place.
It should become common knowledge in the business world that if you discriminate against us. Your business will be just as dead as if you put a “No Coloreds” sign on the front of your building.
Still more info needed to make a proper call one way or the other.
Intuits actions were not only unethical, they were potentially criminal, involving both direct fraud against Gunsite and facilitation of theft by fraud by third parties who failed to pay for goods and services already delivered.
I won’t be using any Intuit products o services anymore. This is my last year to use Turbo Tax. I have about as much confidence in them now as I would in itinerant driveway resurfacers.
Y’all are proclaiming victory, but Intuit probably just realized they screwed up, and would be on the hook for damages.
I’d re-cork the champaign bottles until more info comes out.
The following is the response I received when I emailed my displeasure to the Intuit President:
Thank you for sharing your point of view. Unfortunately, recent media coverage has not accurately reflected the details of the issue at hand. Let me offer some clarification.
Intuit as a company respects and abides by the laws in all the countries where we conduct business. As an American company, we respect the US Constitution and all the rights contained in it. Nothing about this matter changes our commitment to this core principle of our company.
This specific matter is about long-standing financial safety policies in the electronic payments industry. The policies apply to payments received by companies in industries that are regulated by federal and state law, such as sales of pharmaceuticals, tobacco sales, pet sales, alcohol sales and firearms and weapons sales.
Our company does NOT prohibit ANY of these regulated industries — including the firearms industry — from using QuickBooks for payment processing. In fact, many do so today. However, for these transactions our bank partner requires them to be done face-to-face. To meet this requirement, our policy today requires the customer to be present to swipe their credit card. When transactions are “keyed in” by the vendor – including online and over the phone – Intuit cannot verify that the customer was present.
All of our customers agree to these terms when they sign on to use our services. When a customer of ours is unable or unwilling to meet this commitment, we reach out to them directly to explore a solution to the problem or to transition them off of our service.
We recognize that in this specific situation we caused an inconvenience for our customer. We’re actively working with the customer to better understand their experience, and we’re doing a full evaluation of our practices and processes so that we deliver a better experience in the future. I hope this clarification is helpful. And thank you again for sharing your point of view.
Respectfully,
Chrissy O.
Office of the President
[email protected]
INCONVENIENCE?
You caused them direct financial damage, and the reasons for such were detailed and duly noted during phone calls that Gunsite made in good faith to try and hash out the matter.
My email to their PR people:
“Dear Ms. Carlini:
I have been a user of Turbo Tax for several years now, and had recommended it to others.
Due to Intuit’s recent unconscionable behavior towards Gunsite, I will no longer either use or recommend it or your other products.
Your actions in reversing card payments owed to Gunsite for goods and services already delivered were not just unethical, they were potentially criminal. If ANY customer failed to pay for goods or services received because of your actions, that would constitute facilitation of theft by fraud. To be honest no reasonably intelligent adult could ever believe that that was not by design.
Based on your actions in this manner, I’m horrified to realize that I entrusted you and your products with my personal financial and even worse, my personal identification information such as my SSAN. Any business which would do what Intuit did simply can’t be trusted with such sensitive information, and anyone would simply be a fool to do so. I am not a fool.
Therefore, I will be uninstalling your product(s) and seeking alternatives, as well as strongly discouraging my business contacts and friends from doing business with you.
You have brought shame upon yourselves and your brand. I certainly hope that the financial and legal consequences give you pause as they certainly should.”
OK, but I didn’t see in there anywhere where Intuit is going to start processing their payments again. Are they still telling the gun industry and gun owners to piss-off? Or are the completely reversing their stance and are now going to stand on the side of freedom?
Everyone in the RKBA family should make a list of enemies – and keep it updated.
What fools like Intuit have not learned, and need to learn, is that gun owners never forget, and seldom forgive. We “hold paper” for a long, long, long time.
I keep my list on a floppy disk.
An 8” floppy disk? Or a new 5 1/4 one?
I’d have to write the list on the label. It broke my heart, but I got rid of my last 3 1/4 a couple of years ago.
Does anyone make 5 or 8 inch floppy media anymore?
NCSECU finally updated their system when 8″ floppies were not to be found. This is now over 10 years ago. I suspect 5″ are with the dodo birds also. I feel if you have such drives, strongly suggest you off load to a newer system, probably over a serial cable. I believe adapter’s are available to USB so then you can be assured of backup to thumb drive.
Gunsite obviously went the second mile with these turds because they thought it would be the easiest way to recover their funds, but they really should have filed charges of theft against Intuit. Intuit is intuitively responsible for understanding the laws of commerce before pulling an unnecessary superficial virtue signalling stunt like this. They should be made an example for these rest of these credit weasels sucking up to Cuomo.
Them Intuit’s should have just stuck with eating Whales and killin Polar Bears.
Sounds like it may be less of a lawsuit and more about getting executives called to talk to some friendly folks in DC: https://nypost.com/2018/06/12/handgun-retailers-lobbying-congress-after-credit-shutdown/
Hopefully they’ll give them the “full Zuckerberg” treatment.
Gunsite should as part of the settlement force Intuit to make a bigly Yuge donation to the NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation. lol.
not a response to threats of litigation my ass. This was a major breach of contract. I seriously doubt any change for Intuit. They simply will be more careful going forward.
I liked the comment made, or rather the term used, in one of the articles referenced by a link above, “boardroom legislating”. The implication of that term is that a corporation’s board can change laws without involving the state legislature or Congress.
That’s flat not going to fly even with our pack of misfit and miscreant representatives. They, at least, carefully and jealously guard their power to legislate.
+
If they’re going to do ROLLERBALL, the rest of us can be Jonathan E.
A “gun bank” needs to be created. Then they can learn about losing to a competitor.
There is a 2a friendly processor already.
who?
Treble damages?
What’s their offer for the defamation from their implied judgment?
What’s their offer to indemnify their victims against accusations and judgments that may come: customers demanding refunds, lawsuits for failure to fulfill their contracts, etc.
Statutory penalties for restraint of trade? civil rights violations?
I look forward to the findings from the financial system regulators, like, for example Sen Warren’s pet consumer finance protection bureau, on the regulatory violations and associated administrative penalties Intuit engaged in when they unilaterally & arbitrarily damaged the financial operations and indeed lives of individuals and small businesses.
F intuit, anti-2a libtard d-rat d-suckers
I am a Gunsite grad and this is upsetting. I am a business owner aND this is a wake-up call.
Don’t take the money. Sue them. They want to hurt you you hurt them back hard
Gunsite is far more forgiving than I would be. They should be suing Intuit’s corporate staff into holes in the ground.
Good move by Intuit.
It won’t help them reclaim my business. They can go swivel. They only relented because of the massive backlash against them, and they can and will do it again to someone smaller.
Businesses and Corporations keep doing this stuff again and again and it is proof that lots of people running these outfits have got no common sense. The left wingers who praise them for trying to screw over gun owners won’t remember their name in a week. But the gun owners and conservatives they have offended are never going to forget what they did. And their lost business will never come back.
Will Intuit continue to do business with pot companies?
Class action by all customers of all legitimate FFL dealers and sites that were cut off from banking services.
Gunsight should accept financial recompense, while looking carefully into the potential for action against law against Intuit.
That said, Intuit’s claim of ignorance, that being the lack of information regarding “remote purchase of firearms”, the FACT is that the firearm purchased remotely is actually delivered to a licensee in the buyer’s area. At this licensees business location, the firearm is transfered to the purchaser AFTER, not BEFORE the completion of whatever background check is required by law. There are no state secrets involved. If Intuit’s management were actually unfamiliar with the facts of the matter, a conclusion that I would seriously question, the firm’s legal counsel should certainly have been able to clarify the situation, if asked, that is.
It strikes me that Intuit’s actions or antics leave a great deal to be desired, and as has been noted elsewhere, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse”.
Intuit is a Financial terrorist organization.
Knives are sold on the web site. Was this supposedly a secret? Is the world coming to a premature end because of the above stated, legitimate business activity, which was no secret to begin with? Intuit and QuickBooks lie, like the proverbial Persian Rug. They should be made to suffer financially for their ridiculous antics.
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