“One person was killed as authorities arrested a group of people involved with the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge,” cnn.com reports. The police arrested Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, Brian Cavalier, Shawna Cox and Ryan W. Payne during a traffic stop some 30 miles from the Refuge. One person, said to be the subject of a federal probable cause arrest, was shot and killed during the confrontation. It’s not clear how the shooting occurred. kata.com reports that . . .
Authorities said another person, Joseph Donald O’Shaughnessy, 45, was arrested in Burns. They’re all facing federal felony charges of conspiracy to impede officers of the US from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats. One person, who was the subject of a federal probable cause arrest and has not yet been identified, died during the confrontation.
Officials said the deceased was the subject of a federal probable cause arrest. The group was driving to a “community meeting” when the FBI and Oregon state troopers stopped the them. Watch this space.
The shot heard round the world… shit’s gonna come unglued, which is of course EXACTLY what the feds and Obummer want, an excuse to stomp on us. Damn.
The feds have shown plenty of restraint. Maybe don’t shoot at the cops if you don’t want to get shot. Maybe don’t act like a criminal while draping yourself with the American flag and the constitution Now, maybe you’re right, and this is a bad shoot. The evidence will come out.
Like the evidence came out in the Waco biker shootout?
For once it would be prudent for the government to bring out the facts ASAP, dragging feet like Waco 2 would make things worse, if the agent had a bad shoot they need to grand jury (or federal equivalent) in a hurry to avoid #rancherlivesmatter.
Show me where they shot at cops. The feds crossed a line here. Even the Ferguson protesters didn’t have anybody killed.
What disgusts me is all the cretins dancing in the blood of people who didn’t actually harm anyone.
There will be a price to pay for this. If you think the blowback from Waco was bad, this will make it look like a firecracker. Every militia group in the country now has just cause to wage war on the feds.
Feds crossed a line?
The only thing the Feds could have done differently is serve these boys milk and cookies.
American blood was spilled in the hot sands to protect the ideals and concept of The USA only to be cast aside by bundy and his outlaws. America means nothing if armed men can take over a place and hold a town hostage. Sounds a lot like Iraq if you ask me. Actually it sounds a lot like ISIS.
So giving racists in Baltimore “room to destroy” is ok but taking over an empty building is now terrorism? Really? What does jackboot taste like?
Well, since you are still around to write this, I’m gong to go out on a limb here and assume that you did not take up Ammon Bundy’s call to drive out to Oregon and join the resistance.
Typical keyboard commando. Rail at the government from the safety of your armchair. If you really had the balls to practice what you preach, you’d be out with the rest of these clowns. Before you accuse others of being bootlickers, why not tell us how the leather tastes.
Look, no one is sayng that the Gov’t is all peaches and cream, but compared to the massive criminal behavior perpetrated by the cops at Waco and Ruby Ridge, it sounds to me like the Feds played this nice and cool. Given the fact that everyone in the car are not at room temp, it’s probably a safe bet that the dead guy did foolishly tried to draw second in the gunfight.
Not rejoicing at anyone’s death, but this crew was a bunch of assclowns and they are lucky that they are alive to face charges as opposed to the alternative.
@Special K:
Some of us have jobs, commitments, no money to travel… A lot of us, actually.
Plenty of us are flying solo, no buddies, no “team”, no nothing. Something like this might convince all those people to start moving.
No armchair commando’s here, just people who weren’t totally bought in yet.
I know I am.
Or maybe we all just keep our eyes closed so we can’t see our whole country going to shit
A non-violent protest is hardly worth killing someone over, despite what you and other anti’s and leftisist were hoping for.
Dude, when you occupy a Federal building with guns, you may choose to call it many things, but non-violen protest is not one of them.
So by your logic Occupy Wall Street was a full blown leftist Jihad?
You’re right, but drawing a gun on a cop is, which is what this guy presumably did. Oh, and nice job accusing everyone who doesn’t go along with nutjobs of being a leftist. I’m sure you think it means something.
Presumably did?
Have you ever heard of a funny little thing called Ruby Ridge?
This was probably run by the exact same jokers. I’ve at least heard that they opted to deploy HRT and SF assets to rescue that poor little brick building.
I don’t think you understand what “non-violent protest” is. Violence is an action. Carrying a gun is not a violent action, otherwise, every person carrying either openly or concealed is committing an “act of violence”.
There isn’t any evidence that he got out of the car with his gun pointed at a cop, or with his gun at all.
Do you have any idea how petulant and ignorant you sound given a little thing called American history?
I will withhold judgement until more facts come out. If the dead protestor fired first then i have no sympathy for them. If the g-men went in guns blazing like they did at Ruby Ridge. Then there will be more discontent.
“I will withhold judgement until more facts come out.”
I’m with you. I’m getting sick of seeing so many people going off “half cocked” so to speak.
The Shot Heard Round the
World happened in 1775, ten years after the Stamp Act. It took ten years for enough citizens to take action to make a difference. Today, we are on the precipice of a major election where there is a chance that Obama’s successor will turn it around without a single shot fired. So, how does this event in Burns compare to 1775? It doesn’t. It is a curiosity in the news, and it will be forgotten. The “popular uprising” in 2016 will be at the ballot box with citizens armed with ballots. 2017? Who knows.
Yahoo News is reporting Ryan Bundy was also shot. So 1 dead, 1 wounded, wonder how things actually happened?
It’s being reported the deceased is Robert “LaVoy” Finicum
“Us”? Speak for yourself, I don’t break & enter, squat, destroy others property, steal or desecrate holy sites to trigger the expected response from law enforcement. If anything they had three weeks to end this circus but didn’t, they simply got what they deserved and it should have come much more swiftly than this.
Like the late, great Fred Thompson said…
“This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.”
The dissolution of a country comes in thousands of little nicks and cuts. The Bundy’s are simply a sign of the breakdown of our logic, law and morals. This was not a hill worth fighting or dying for. Sad and stupid.
This.
Yeah I’d agree. Let’s occupy a deserted structure that belongs to the government. Let’s demand the release of two people who we deem innocent but the judge deems guilty. Let’s threaten to stay here until we get our way…
Who didn’t see this coming? If our enemies will willingly get into a firefight over a building with non-hostage children in it, if they will burn it to the ground, if they will still not admit wrongdoing, what do you expect? They certainly will not let their two “arson” prisoners go.
This was pointless. Bundy and his buddies would have gotten more mileage out of keeping quiet, then taking that judge’s head off with a bone saw on his way to Starbuck’s.
That may still happen. The feds had a chance to end this peacefully. They chose violence. Well, guerrillas are far better at violence than these clowns think. I see a lot of dead FBI agents in the near future.
Agreed. The government doesn’t care who protests, what they are protesting about because they know it is all noise that will come to nothing. If they start finding judges and politicians dead, then it will get their attention.
Judge AND jury.
pwrserge, keep us updated on your upcoming interrogation, arrest and indictment for threatening to kill federal agents. What a dumb@$$!
Hey Fred, go learn the difference between a threat and an observation. Last time we had something like this, a nut job blew up a federal building in retaliation.
I’m still waiting for Ted Unlis to type a comment without “dumba$$” in it. I think he has a keyboard macro or something.
pwrserge, perhaps your public defender can convince the jury that wasn’t a threat. You’re as deluded as Finicum if you’ve convinced yourself that federal agents won’t be knocking on your door by the end of the week, it’s likely they’ll have you identified and located by noon today if not before. Too funny!
Yeah, I’m sure they will get right on that. Show me the last person convicted for something like this. A threat legaly requires a call to action or the expectation of action. So sorry, the SCotUS already ruled on this one. If a clan leader can get away with saying that he will shoot the president, I think I’m on solid 1st amendment grounds. But hey, I could use a multi-million dollar false arrest suit. Daddy needs a new bunker.
The West won’t like this, the East will think they got what they deserved. And, the divide grows wider….
Bout time. To bad one of them died, but this could have been avoided and should have been stopped a long time ago.
Holy shit! War is coming.
How many FBI agents and Oregon troopers you think will get hunted down?
None.
None. I agree with the Bundys plight because the problem is that congress gave bureaucrats too much authority since they didn’t want to have to micromanage those lands and the bureaucrats have used their authority to become tyrants unto themselves…. but it’s not exactly a problem that has mass appeal or support in fixing.
Or, don’t burn federal lands without permission in order to cover up your poaching. These fucks don’t deserve the time of day.
This
What does federal jackboot taste like? The facts of the case were bullshit and you damn well know it.
It totally doesn’t justify shooting people over a peaceful protest. By your logic, every member of Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter should be shot. Those groups did far worse and nobody ended up dead.
Poachers need to go to jail. How many rhinos are left in this world?
If you like poaching then keep cheering for Bundy’s ship of fools.
What poaching? There was no admissible evidence of poaching. There was no conviction for poaching. In any case, these guys were hundreds of miles away at the time.
Talk to the people who live there and get back to us. The news is there if you will talk to the locals.
You know what covers up poaching better than burning barren land?
Taking the game home and eating it.
That’s a load a bullshit and anyone who can rub two brain cells together can tell. They were arrested because they refuse to sell their home to add to a wildlife reserve that the government possesses illegally in the first place.
The federal government has authority to own land in the case of a 10 square mile piece of land for a Capitol, we know that as Washington, DC. Other than that, for forts, ports, arsenals, and the necessary land for those facilities. All federal lands that do not fall under this are being held illegally and should be granted back to the states.
Check your Constitution.
If the evidence was there, why has it not been produced? Locals? Whats a local, the nut job from down in the trailer park? The town busybody, spreading whatever rumors get attention? If there was proof of some incident of them randomly slaughtering a herd of deer and then burning the land to get away with it (btw, from experience, burning the land doesn’t remove remains, they would still be there) then why hasn’t it been produced? Or is it just a ploy to get the masses to forget the real issue, the abuses of the Federal Government, and to justify the killing of those people who are protesting it.
Check the locals. Or you can continue to ignore them. Usually a who man lives next to his neighbors for 30 + years gives you some insights. When an entire small town says the same thing most Americans listen.
So… again… why weren’t they able to prove it?
It’s called start a fire to destroy the evidence.
So absence of evidence is evidence of absence now? Do you even logic bro? Fun fact, forrest fires don’t get rid of deer carcasses.
Type in Malheur national wildlife refuge into your google search engine. Look at “images.” Please tell me where you see the trees.
The fire burned scrub sage. Not a forest. Gasoline will do that in a desert environment.
The government I am sure is less than Snow White in all of this but neither are the “ranchers.”
As for Bundy’s? Please explain to me why they feel the need to travel 700 miles to a place that doesn’t want them.
So… again… why was there NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF POACHING? A scrub fire is even less likely to get rid of said evidence.
The evidence is a guilty conviction. You and I may disagree with it but the government made its case in a court of law. (Such as it is) Btw gasoline destroys stuff.
The guys were not squeaky clean Angels.
Now answer some of my questions.
Is it Strawman time already?
You don’t have even the tiniest clue about controlled burns, the outcome of the Hammond prosecution, or the scale of the lands we’re talking about out there. But, that’s the east-west divide.
Try to keep up joe…
There
Was
No
Conviction
for
Poaching
Do I need to get a purple dinosaur to sing it to you?
For those who think that “gasoline destroys stuff” 😀
Gasoline do shit if you need to burn down a decent body.
Example for dubious: cremation, 1400 to 1800 F, 1-3 hours in preheated chamber. And after the process still remains bones.
How many gas is needed for the dirty job?
Do I need to spell it out for you? As I understand it the fire started because the ranchers quickly burned a bunch of dried deer and elk hides which caused the fire which led them to the arson conviction. Gasoline will quickly burn a dried hide. We are not talking a fresh bull elk here. Thus it was not a “controlled burn.” They were trying to hide the evidence of poaching on the refuge. That is the reason the townspeople have not defended them. .
As someone that lives and has family with real land in the west, I know the difference between the definition of the east’s understanding of land and westerners.
Are you serious?? They were not convicted of any poaching. No conviction = caseless accusation. Accusation = nothing at all. I can make all kinds of accusations against you.
There were many fires that were set to clear land and brush and the BLM did not prosecute them. Why did they only seek to prosecute the hammonds? Is it because they wanted their land?
The hammonds set a counter fire from a fire on BLM land caused by a lightening strike. The counter fire burned 1 acre of land, put out the fire, and saved the ranch.
The second fire did burn just over a 100 acres of BLM land. Which is extremely small considering the hammonds ranch was 6000 acres. Also, the ranchers informed the fire department of controlled burns. And – in both instances – the hammonds put out the fires.
The MSM has sucessfully done its work on people like you. Really disappointed Bob.
http://landrights.org/or/Hammond/Hammond-v-United-States-Oregon-Petition-for-Writ-of-Certiorari-Filed-June-17-2013.pdf
Right, you got me, I am a believer in the MSM.
Explain to me one thing, why do all their neighbors including the local town want nothing to do with them???
If you have a fake grievance but a sympathetic public, march, occupy, riot, burn, or whatever you want. It will go well for you in the national stage.
If you have a legitimate grievance but no public awareness, go personal. Hit them at home in the dead of night with molotovs and a barrage of .308 when they run outside.
There are times to go public and whine, but the other times you go quiet and deadly. Let them see the true COST of their actions. They aren’t heroes. They’re in this for power, not faith. They’ll fold as soon as death becomes a likely consequence.
No, no it’s not. Superbowl Sunday is coming though. In less than two weeks!
Ignore the Moby.
This inevitability was going to end poorly.
The morons in here thinking this is going to “start something” make me laugh.
This. The country doesn’t give a sht if these hillbillies live or die.
“Something” has already been started, this is just “more of same” and adds fuel to the fire.
Yes. More fuel for hard talking internet patriots.
Like the guys who showed up to this in the first place? I hate to break it to you, but this will be used as a rallying cry for years.
You mean the guys who showed up ill prepared and had to beg for food and snacks, but got sent sex toys?
It doesn’t take a lot of preparation to gun down federal officials in the street.
+1 internet patriots
This. The aggrieved “patriots” had plenty of time to rally to the Bundy militia. Where were they? We’re a nation of 315 million people. If you issue a rally cry to your militia brethren and less show up than at a wal mart on Tuesday you need to rethink your stand on the issues.
Does the federal government have a felony murder rule where if somebody in a group get’s killed, all of them are tried for murder?
If so, is it possible that if the police shot and killed one of the folks in this group, that they all get tried murder?
If so, just thinking with my tin foil hat here, could they have shot somebody on purpose and unnecessarily to charge all of them with murder?
Yes. Anything that results from you or someone you’re commiting a crime with can be charged to all participants. If you rob a bank and your partner in crime kills someone you’ll be charged with murder as well.
Any odds on when Oregon’s governor Kate Brown gets taken out by a militia member?
Seems to me she has declared war.
She didn’t order this arrest. A state governor doesn’t tell the FBI whom to arrest. The Feds had jurisdiction.
No, she didn’t have legal jurisdiction… Just influence. I bet that many people in the government will die as a direct result of this. There are too many people in this country on edge and feed up with this governmental crap.
She’s a state governor. Federal law enforcement doesn’t give a shit about her opinion. She doesn’t have any influence. If she did the OSP would of made this arrest on their own.
State police were there doing the traffic stop. You can bet they weren’t just sitting back at a safe distance and observing this predictable cluster$%@!.
This will not start a war. Federal agents and local cops will not be hunted down. Look around you folks. We live in a country of prosperity. Our poor folk have cell phones, pc’s, color tv and are fat from the overabundance of food.
We are a first world nation in the 21st century. Elections are coming. That’s where we get our payback.
Let’s elect Trump as a bitch slap to the man.
Trump *is* the man, you twit.
Is that why the DNC AND the RNC are scared shitless of him?
Trump has close ties to both Hillary and Bill Clinton. Probably running only to help Hillary get elected since his national support will never get above 30%, being an abrasive and divisive figure as he is. Someone who appeals to the bitter Republican base and gets the nomination but has no chance of winning over anyone else in the presidential election. That’s why he’s so over the top like a muppet on crack, making a mockery of conservative beliefs while getting them to lap it up at the same time.
I’m scared shitless of him. He’s a ticking time bomb.
Right… What about his personality make you think he’d be willing to be ANYONE’S patsy?
The biggest problem with him running is that it shows the US has a lot more idiots than we care to admit. At least the Trump bumper stickers make them easier to pick out.
Yikes, Trump getting elected would be Germany 1932 all over again – angry desperate people voting for a loud sociopathic father figure who can ‘stick it to the man’ but only ends up being the ‘stick up man’. Gotta go with Rand Paul as the sane and Constitutionally correct choice here. You’re right though, as long as there is prosperity, things won’t change except slide worse into socialist collapse. One day, they’ll “run out of other people’s money” and the EBT cards will stop working…
It’s a shame when Rand Paul looks sane compared to those against whom he’s running.
I’m a Rand Paul supporter myself, but Germany 1932? Really? That is some lazy thinking…
How so? We have a country in an economic depression, 90 million able bodied not working, we have 2 generations who have been eating off a silver spoon and live by emotion, we have an endless propaganda machine cheering an increasingly desperate government and we have a nation that had no connection to God and our Judeo-Christian heritage. 1932 Germany is looking like a similar situation. We are living in a time of desperation despite our material wealth. Stop the love of God, welcome to the whirlwind. Ask ancient Israel.
Ah, I get what you are saying. I thought you were jumping in on the silly Trump is Hitler meme. It’s late so my reading comprehension is going down.
@JoesephQuixote
How did you come to 90 million able bodied unemployed? That’s practically 30% of our overall population and BLS says 5% is unemployment rate as of December 2015…
Here is a recent estimate.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjO1Iuv5MrKAhWGLmMKHXtcAeIQFgg7MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fpeterferrara%2F2014%2F01%2F24%2Fafter-five-years-of-obamanomics-a-record-100-million-americans-not-working%2F&usg=AFQjCNHJ1MEUjGuCtLVRveK4SCg48m-xvw&bvm=bv.112766941,d.cGc
I would still take a nationalistic Germany circa 1933 over Communist 1917-1994 Soviet-era Russia like we have now under BOTH RINOs and Dems (Liberals) any day. The fact is Trump ISN’T Fascist or Communist, he’s a patriotic American and a Capitalist thus he has my vote.
Vote Trump!
Having lived in the latter, I’ll take the former any day of the week.
Nazi Germany over Soviet Russia. That is the single dumbest thing I have read in quite some time. I thought it only applied to Trump, but clearly his supporters also: you folks don’t stand for a single damn thing other than your feels. You have no political philosophy other than anarchy, no motives other than destruction, and probably dream of using it all as a cover to enrich yourselves at the expense of others. Breaking shit is easy; dumbass 18yo American soldiers and coked-out child soldiers can pull that off. Actually governing according to a set of guiding principles that keep things on the rails and beneficial to all is very difficult, and often requires going against the emotions of anger, frustration, and vengeance.
You might think it cathartic to vote for a man who you know deep down is an idiot, so as to force his idiocy upon those who think themselves the elite. It isn’t catharsis when the consequences of that idiocy bear down on you directly. Trump didn’t give a God damn about conservative principles even four years ago, and we all know it. It’s a con, always has been with the man. That’s how you get to be a billionaire, after all; right, populists? Yet somehow when the con is brazen enough certain marks will fall all the harder for it.
A guy who magically underwent a Damascene Conversion just in time for the election at age sixty-something after living an entire prosperous life in the very seat of liberalism, or someone who has literally been on track with conservative principles and individual liberties their entire lives & has dedicated themselves to public service in pursuit of those goals (we have not one, but two candidates fitting this bill, and another two or so who very closely approximate it but are too corporate for my liking). You people are either insane, or suicidal.
Fun fact, Hitler killed way fewer people than Stalin. Given those two options, I’d choose Hitler.
Stalin murdered the majority of my family tree. My grandmother doesn’t even know her real name thanks to him. A fascist Trump would be heaven compared to that.
Anybody who thinks otherwise hasn’t studied history enough. Go google holodomor. That’s what’s in the future in Democrats take anything. I’ll take a fourth Reich over that any day and twice on Sunday and I hate Nazis almost as much as I hate Stalin (they finished off a majority of my family that Stalin didn’t get to.)
“The fact is Trump ISN’T Fascist or Communist, he’s a patriotic American and a Capitalist thus he has my vote.”
Has he proferred a single solution to America’s problems that doesn’t flow from himself (i.e. ‘the government’)? Does he or does he not blame practically every problem on ‘outsiders’ when in fact the issues really go beyond immigrants’ impact to the role & scope of federal governance? Has he offered to eliminate any vast tracts of federal bureaucracy? Does he not rely on patriotic/emotional rhetoric when confronted on any of his proposals (i.e. WTH do NYC liberal values have to do with the 9-11 attacks, morons)? One of two things will happen with his election: he’ll immediately isolate himself by thrashing against a governing system meant specifically to contain his ambitions (and sulk away to quietly enrich himself through graft like Obama or Clinton), or he’ll break free of those bonds entirely and embark upon a much darker course of history. I doubt he’ll live long enough to see the nadir, but he or another equally destructive president could easily send us inexorably toward despotism or civil war.
I love all the talk of ‘he can’t be bought:’ this about the man who has flat-out lied about his net worth (often by an order of magnitude) so as to make the coveted ‘billionaires’ list. Obsessed about his standing among fat-cats to the point of eccentricity, at times. And here he’s eyeing an office which has enriched by ten-times-over the last four or five tenants…
So let me get this straight, because Hitler only killed 25 million he is better than Stalin because he killed 30 million. Is that what we are supposed to gain from this exchange? Pwnserge, most of us prefer leaders who don’t even remind us even in the least bit of the totalitarian leaders of the past. To say one is “better” or “worse” cheapens the death of each and every person unjustly killed by the murderous butchers. Our we supposed to prefer one evil over another because it’s not quite as bad?
Evil is still evil. A murderer is still a murderer. Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Not a competition with any winners.
I’m in agreement with everything you stated until you brought that egotistical trump into the equation. Put Cruz there and I think your talking sense. Trump is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He talks a good game but reminds me of the danger of looking to a charismatic but ruthless leader who appealed to the masses. Not a good person to vote for in a time of national crisis.
Here’s my bets in order of likelihood/optimistic outlook;
Best case: Cruz wins & is able to make some SCOTUS appointments, & eliminate/consolidate some agencies
Second best: Cruz wins & is stymied by a resistant Dem/Rep establishment alliance, precipitating a political realignment for the next generation or so (like the 60’s or 30’s)
Second-point-five best: Same thing but for Trump; not a whole lot gets done
Third best: Trump wins & actually tries to do half the crap he’s peddling, and is stopped by lawsuits/goes nowhere. Immediately falls back on the kleptocrat Plan B like Obama or Clinton or Putin
Fourth: Trump wins & goes turn-coat after some political crisis (ie terror-attack) and pushes gun control & whathaveyou. He appoints people he knows (ie New York liberals) as judges.
Fifth: Trump wins & proceeds to finish Obama’s job in severing all international ties with allies, world burns hotter, resulting in more domestic terror attacks & subsequent loss of liberty
Sixth: Trump is assassinated before or soon after taking office: generational loss of liberties, once again, probably for good this time
Sixth: Declares war on someone he really shouldn’t have, probably Iran/Syria, sparking a World War in the Middle East (this may happen regardless, but it’ll still suck for the US to deal with a real-size conflict for the first time in fifty years, on the heals of a depression). War footing results in much greater/permanent federal control of the economy
The bright side is the most likely scenarios are the most beneficial to our civil liberty at this time. Very promising future, which can only be denied if Hillary flat-out steals the election & probably sets off large scale civil unrest that could easily conflagrate into regional conflict at this time. Also worth mentioning is how many different scenarios Trump can follow; the man is simply too unpredictable due to rapid/random swings in just about everything for his entire life (well, except New York City; that’s the one constant, it seems). Still a very promising time, with a lot of conservative talent finally blooming at long last (hell, even Christie & Bush would make very capable administrators in offices that can hem in their statist tendencies, and the same goes for Trump). Trump would make an excellent “hostile ambassador” to nations we don’t really care for or have normal relations with, as he can match their public bravado & still clearly negotiate competently in private despite the ruckus; something ‘normal’ ambassadors like Kerry can never seem to pull off.
I really want your best case to come true but the reality on the ground right now looks like your fourth scenario.
I hope the folks in Iowa and New Hampshire can turn it around.
Yeah….that’ll show them…or we can elect someone that actually knows what they’re doing and respects the Constitution. Like Rand Paul.
As much as I want Rand as president, let’s face it, trump is owning the Republican election.
My only rational hope is that Clinton gets her rear handed to her and we see Bernie with Rand as VP.
I am afraid Trump is the ‘man.” He would kill the people at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Bundy’s and Occupy Wall Street. And probably send Elian Gonzales home to Cuba as an illegal alien.
Trump’s the kind of guy who would take Bundy’s land via eminent domain and give it to himself to build a casino.
The fact is Trump would “Buy Out” the Bundys and the Hammonds giving them above market value for their land.
Before anyone chimes in with “Atlantic City” and the elderly woman’s home which STILL stands that WASN’T Donald J. Trump who filed for “eminent domain” it WAS the city of Atlantic City itself and Penthouse publisher Bob Guccione who wanted that land for a casino to rival Hugh Hefner’s Playboy one. Once Guccione went under (bankrupt) Trump as is his practice “bought out” Guccione’s floundering casino project, the legal filings WEREN’T made by Trump they WERE made by the city of Atlantic City (they wanted the increased property taxes it would bring the city) and Bob Guccione. How do I know this? I’m a diesel mechanic/foreman and I watch and watched Atlantic City and it’s gambling industry closely, though I DON’T gamble at one time (nearly 20 years) the bulk of the business the companies I worked for provided transportation to and from the casinos for Ct, NJ, NY, LI, residents (it was quite lucrative UNTIL casinos opened in Pa, Ct, NY, De etc.)
From Trump’s (the government’s) perspective, they would be squatters. Please don’t tell me a man as fond of imminent domain as he would tolerate squatters attempting to extort him, let alone give them above market value for land that is not even theirs (again, from the fed’s perspective)
Randy Weaver was an odd loaner, the Waco cult was down right weird, the Bundy’s picked the wrong battle, but I AM GETTING REAL TIRED OF MY GOVERNMENT KILLING PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH IT.
And the rest of America is getting real tired with angry tinfoil hat wearing white boys taking up arms against the government every time they don’t get their precious little way. I’m amazed at the restraint the feds have taken with regard to those shitkickers in Oregon. Should have smoked them out weeks ago.
I guess that is New York due process… Due you work for the ATF or FBI, or BLM? Park Service?
Nah he just sounds like one of the gawker idiots who thinks that the police get up every morning and hope to shoot a black ‘kid’ but wouldn’t so much as touch a white person. And that burning pharmacies and looting liquor stores is somehow in the same category as squatting in an unused wildlife refuge building.
So, you are advocating the Feds use lethal force against people who are doing something stupid and trespassing? That’s a bit scary. I hope you don’t work in a place where you have to make big decisions.
I guess he does. Hillary Clinton and Trump are both hiring.
You are mostly correct and this is exactly why a civil war is coming. Lines have mostly been drawn.
A regrettable loss of life, however, stupid people, in a stupid place, doing stupid things, for a stupid long time.
Did the Boston tea party participants qualify for your “stupid” logic?
It seems to me the patriots at the Boston Tea Party had enough support behind their cause to raise a revolt and eventually overthrow tyrants by pressing multiple tactical advantages. Not stupid.
Contrast that with this disaster. Outgunned. No community support. Isolated. Short supplies. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I think the BLM employs multiple questionable practices. I think the Bundys were absolutely justified in the actions that they took to defend their own cattle on their own ranch. I also believe that they grossly misjudged this situation and lacked the wisdom to stand down when it became apparent that this was not a winning situation.
Tactically very weak. A sit-in in the regional office-building (armed or otherwise) would have made tons more sense. The stakes were too low where they were located, their supply lines stretched too thin, and the result was a drawn-out siege with the defenders growing increasingly agitated until the odds finally took their toll & someone miscalculated. It’s hard to see how this could have possibly worked out in the Bundy’s/etc’s favor.
“It seems to me the patriots at the Boston Tea Party had enough support behind their cause”
Right and wrong are not popularity contests.
You also may remember that quite a few “little things” happened over a span of numerous years for that support to crystallize. The Boston Massacre, for example, was about three years prior.
The Patriots did not just ‘wake up’ one day and support open revolt. It was a series of grievances that built on the past one.
The two “Bundy Incidents” so far are not The Boston Tea Party, but it could well be argued they are part of the soup that leads to bigger things.
A righteous cause does not forgive crappy tactics. Fight winnable battles, or at least battles that will bring more aid to your side when you are martyred. A lot of children will grow up without fathers because of this capricious disregard for sound planning. And I do not believe the cause of these people will be strengthened by their actions. Quite the contrary, actually.
Your comparing the Boston tea party to Bundy’s quest? Please enlighten us.
Look I thought he was right at first when the shit when down in Nevada, but after you look into things it seems he is nothing but a blowhard bully. Not worth any honest mans time.
Admitidly, I wish the Bundy group wasn’t so taticly stoopid, but their cause is just.
The cause of the rural west is just. bundy? I’m not seeing it.
It says a lot about our country when Trump, Hillary and Bundy’s represent it. Ugh
They were a tough bunch, mostly young rope makers by trade. Never a good idea to throw rocks and ice balls at nervous guys with muskets.
That would be hemp rope, also.
“Why, I used to smoke four feet of rope a day…” –Thomas Jefferson (attributed)
So that justifies shooting them?
Gee, by your logic Ferguson and Baltimore should have been nuked.
I’ll thank you to get your hand out of my mouth.
With that out of the way, multiple Black Lives Matter protesters have been forcibly arrested. Far more of them deserved to be arrested, but were not. At least one of the people present at this altercation is said to have been subject to probable cause for an arrest. If this was true, the Feds were doing their job.
Was it a clean shoot? At this point none of us know, but I will say this: the Bundy’s have done nothing in this situation to earn the benefit of the doubt from me.
How many of them GOT SHOT? That’s the damn difference.
I mean no sarcasm in the following, just trying to get my bearings. It seems to me that one of these has to be your argument:
1. For the sake of justice, some of the Black Lives Matter Protestors should have been shot.
2. For the sake of justice, the Oregon occupier who was shot should not have been, even if he presented a credible threat of grave injury or loss of life.
3. After a 24 day conflict, the feds were corrupt and bloodthirsty enough to execute one person but for some reason lacked the gumption to finish the job by offing the other ringleaders of the occupation, therefore leaving multiple witnesses to their alleged assassination.
What am I missing?
4. The feds weren’t prepared to murder a convoy full of people in cold blood, but were more than capable of executing the “ring leaders” to make their point.
Oh, and yes, 1 also applies. Ferguson should have been put down in a Napoleonic fashion.
The problem I have with #4 is that there were 5 people in the two cars that were stopped, and at this point it appears that definitely 1 and possibly 2, max, were shot. Amon Bundy, the face of the occupation, was not harmed. If the goal was to take them all out then the operation was a miserable failure.
As to Black Lives Matter, I have nothing but contempt for that movement, and am pretty steamed that it has been allowed to fester, especially in my own community. Far more could/should be done along the lines of arresting protesters. Lethal force, however, has a pretty narrow range of legally permissible applications, and it is not clear to me that the members of that movement have posed a reasonable threat of grave bodily injury or death to others with much frequency (although there are certainly some documented instances).
Finnicum was shot.
Yeah. Nevada politician Michelle Fiore said it was LaVoy Finicum. Who famously stated that he has no intention of finishing his life in a concrete cell. He got his wish.
Was it worth it? Doubt it.
Was it worth might come of it? Not just no, but “no, you stupid idiots.”
But all the left-wingers can celebrate now. They’ve just been waiting with baited breath for some white guys with beards to get shot.
There were quite a few that really wanted everyone to be slaughtered by the government. Kind of scary knowing these kind of people live among us.
They are not people. They are subjects who called this treason to our government. Which doesnt exist. You can be treasonous to our country, but not our government.
Sometimes when you dare them to come and take it, they do.
The question is what you do then. I vote for retreat, regroup, and rearm. This bullshit is going to make the blowback from Waco look like a firecracker. Lots of groups were looking for a reason to take up arms. Now they have one.
Nobody is going to take up arms over this. A dead man who told people repeatedly and on film that he would resort to force if he were arrested, and who wrote a fantasy novel where cowboys hang local officials and slay federal agents in gun battles, isn’t exactly the most inspiring figure.
Like nobody took up arms over Waco? I can think of an example in Oklahoma City that says different. The point is that this should have been resolved peacefully. The Feds chose to escalate this, they chose poorly and in doing so backed some rather crazy people up against a wall. As I said, I can see multiple groups that were on the fence using this as an excuse to commit real acts of terror rather than some mild civil disobedience.
Wow, I just read through most of the comments, and a few comments are disturbingly extreme. This event is not some sort of call for arms. Just because their cause was righteous does not mean their methods were smart or the time appropriate. We have an election that is less than 9 months away that could change everything. For all we know, the next president could pardon the Hammonds and reverse these land grabs. Now is not the time to do something stupid. In November, arm yourself with a ballot, for that is how you fight this in 2016. For extra credit, drive someone to the voting station. Perhaps offer to canvass an area to encourage people to vote for your favorite candidate.
+1.
These people are foolish to be posting the “agents and cops” being gunned down stuff.
For two reasons.
The first, they will undoubtably end up on some NSA watch list.
And two, simply because they themselves won’t pull the trigger on any agents or cops. I guarantee it. Just talking smack behind a keyboard calling anyone who disagrees with them a boot licker. So brave, guys.
If this is a bad shoot by the feds, and I suspect it was then perhaps this will play in our favor in the court of public opinion. Regardless, the Feds have spilled first blood. What happens next is all their fault. I hope cooler heads prevail, and this can be ended peacefully. Sadly that may not happen.
Wait for the details. Mike at SipseyStreet has nothing yet:
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/
http://www.kctv5.com/story/31064909/report-ammon-bundy-other-armed-occupiers-of-wildlife-refuge-in-police-custody
I haven’t read ALL of the comments or reports yet but one thing seems clear: out of the 5 or so militia involved in this altercation it appears that ONLY ONE believed in his cause enough to lay his life down.
Maybe I’m outta line, maybe not…..
What’s that say about the Bundy’s?
Just because only one was killed doesn’t mean he was the only one willing to lay his life down.
And I will wait for some semblance of “truth” to come out. How are you ambushed 30 miles from where you are “protesting” (or is it occupying?). THIS won’t start any war. A few battles and protests but when millions of guns are declared illegal then we might have something. And I don’t want Hitler or Stalin-or donnie trump. Ted Cruz for president.
Bundy Senior reporting what wives of those arrested allege- that LaVoy Finicum was shot with his hands in the air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLG6ds5SXw&feature=youtu.be
After just watching video of a news interview of Robert Lavoy Finicum, aka “tarp man”, I must say that it was hard to watch and realize that a 55 year old man could be so deluded and consumed with such gullible ignorance.
Finicum obviously had a death wish which he very clearly articulated on camera by announcing he would resist arrest with deadly force using a firearm if an attempt was made by law enforcement to serve a warrant for his arrest.
Today the Oregon State Police granted the poor dumb b@$t@rd his wish. Thank God no one else died.
Oregon Lives report of live stream from Pete Santelli at Maheur:
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/01/pete_santillis_live_stream_doc.html
Here is the guy who was killed- LaVoy Finicum, talking about the change of tenor by Feds, one day before:
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2016/01/pete_santillis_live_stream_doc.html
Lots more at AR15.com
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1823847_BREAKING__Militia_Takes_Over_Federal_Building_in_Oregon_1_26_Bundys_and_three_others_arrested_1_dead.html&page=128
I’m going to wait 6 months to a year to comment because by then we might know what happened and the consequences. Maybe. Or not
No matter how right the Bundy’s were, this whole thing has been a tactical blunder from the start. It was nothing but a suicide mission. Pick your battles or you lose.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes… Right?
Anyone who chooses a Bundy lead cause to be their minute man moment, well… As an old knight living in a deserted Arabian desert valley cave once proclaimed… “He chose… Poooorly”.
At least we are free, unlike those poor slobs in Russia!
The sanity of the Bundy Clan and the legality of their actions aside, the BLM and other Federal authorities of this ilk are government agencies whose sole purpose is to perpetuate either their existence or expansion. All of our governments, Federal, State and local (unlike those in most of the world), possess no authority to claim “inherent” power. Any power they possess has been delegated to them by the people. That power is not conveyed through an election – an election is merely a means to fill an office – but through their constitutions. Yet today, we have a bloated, inept bureaucracy that is infinitely larger than our Founding Fathers would have ever conceived – and it continues to grow. Those that have achieved power within our government will fight tooth and nail to keep it, and make expansion of that power their most primary and conscientious effort. Whether the Bundy Clan is loony or not really doesn’t matter to me. A reasonable government comprised of reasonable men would have been able to sit down with the Bundy Clan, hear their grievance, and work out some reasonable solutions LONG before this escalated. Our government does not do deescalation of hostilities with its citizens – when those in power get pushed (and particularly so when they are in the wrong), they don’t concede power by working it out, they make an example out of you.
Have not read all the comments, but I am curious if anyone else was bothered by this little gem:
” federal felony charges of conspiracy to impede officers of the US from discharging their official duties”
That may be as well-intentioned as they come, law wise, but what potential for slippery slope there!
Wait a minute, doesn’t the FBI video everything they do? Also Cops were involved in the traffic stop that resulted in the shooting, shouldn’t they have body cameras and dash cams? Where is the video? In this day and age I don’t see any reason why there isn’t any?? And if the authorities come out and say that there isn’t any video or documentation of the stop I’d then be suspicious, because wouldn’t the authorities want to document it so there’s no conspiracy?
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. These guys were incompetent and absurd through and through. Even people sympathetic to their cause thought they were doing something stupid.
When you choose to head to another state hundreds of miles from home, take a stand at a…wildlife refuge…in the middle of nowhere, in a town that makes it very clear they don’t want you there, over people who disassociate themselves from you, without bothering to properly prepare and have to ask others to donate and instead get sent sex toys, on top of having half your group turn out to be guilty of Stolen Valor or drunks that run off with donations and whatnot, you’re probably going about this the wrong way.
There isn’t going to be any hunting of FBI agents or Oregon officials, there isn’t going to be an Oregon uprising, this was a sad comedic tragedy that should have ended with everyone going home weeks ago. It was increasingly clear these guys had no organized agenda or coherent goals.
I’m sad someone died, but even if you agreed with these guys ideas, nothing about this was intelligently thought out or competently executed, it was a farce that always had a chance for tragedy.
You’re exactly right, Finicum’s death amounted to nothing more than an incredibly long drawn out and complicated method to commit suicide by cop.
Now the News Media is reporting the dead man wanted to “commit suicide by cop”, which is probably what the Feds want to make his death “dismissable”. Expect delay in an official account because the Feds are counting-on most people forgetting about it and then can ignore the smaller percentage who do care about the matter when they issue an official account.
Someone wrote a diatribe in another post about how our lives do not matter to the State. It seems clear that neither do our opinions or concerns about situations like this matter, either. The present Administration routinely dismisses evidence and hard-facts that show their policies aren’t working or are unjust.
As to this matter in Oregon, it seems pretty clear to me the “Bundy Militia” decided to interject themselves into a situation where they were not welcome or supported by the local population.
Maybe the Feds are counting all around on this being an eminently forgettable incident, so they only killed the one person and arrested the rest to keep it on the down-low and insure it goes right out of the mainstream of attention quickly.
Sorry for the man killed, not so concerned about the “Bundy Militia” and their fate.
They weren’t going to a meeting, it was a dildo resupply run.
I presume they couldn’t have been stopped or arrested peacefully at the meeting in question? /sarc
Considering that it is unlikely that the press has anything truthful to report on this and the local, state and federal authorities’ actions and agenda is also questionable this opinion is a general observation of the situation.
1. Bundy and the rest took over this sorry facility to protest the sentence of 2 locals for burning some Federal lands. The locals (apparently) agreed to go to do the sentence. So the first issue I see is, why are you protesting this?
2. So, in spite of that, let’s say that you have a great reason to protest. And, you are fully justified in taking over this sorry federal facility. Doing so in an armed fashion only invites the authorities to do unpleasant things like kill you. Not a good thing unless that is your plan. And, what exactly is your plan? More on that later.
3. Taking over a federal facility and being armed is bad PR to the general sheepal public and makes great press for the left/anti-gun/anti liberty boys to feed on. It may be your right to carry a firearm, but if you are breaking the law when doing so that is a deal breaker. Much better to go in unarmed and protest. This has proven to be the most effective form of protest throughout history. If you attacked by the authorities and you are non-violent they get the bad press.
4. If you have taken over a federal facility and are armed it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that sooner or later the sh!t is going to hit the fan and you are going to have a bad day. Driving into town for a meeting with your good buddy the Sheriff just seems a bit naïve. I mean really, he is the Sheriff! How long is it going to take for the fed, state, local authority or just plain reason to put enough pressure of the Sheriff until he turns on you? Looks like today was that day. This was just stupid on the protesters part. Stupidity gets one dead.
5. If you are a protester, what is your plan? Do you have a plan? Have you thought this out at all? Do you realize that the Sheriff is the Executive authority for the area and might take exception to your actions? So once the Sheriff was turned and everyone of authority was against you, and you are driving around armed, or not, it doesn’t take much of a stretch of the imagination to know the outcome. It was a safe bet that things were not going to go well.
So, is the government to blame? I think not. The protesters should have known what would happen sooner or later. It looks to me like they had no planning or tactics or bad planning and tactics. The law is the law, the Sheriff could not be their friend forever. Someone was going to get hurt and the Feds just had better tactics and out thought them.
Sorry boys, if the American Revolution had planning of the caliber we would still be English subjects.
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