Smith & Wesson M&P pistol (courtesy defensereview.com)

Hot on the heels of Ruger’s announcement that it will allow all of its pistols to fall off the California Department Of Justice approved list, ending Ruger’s pistol sales in the Golden State, Smith & Wesson’s taking their M&P pistols off the menu. Guns Direct Facebook page let slip news of [what is in effect] a manufacturer boycott: “Attention: California gun owners. Smith & Wesson Corp. just informed us that all the M&P pistols will be falling off the Ca DOJ list of approved handguns in the next 60 days. So if your [sic] thinking about one, now is the time.” Ruger stopped sales claiming they could not satisfy the CA DOJ’s microstamping requirement. As of yet there’s no official statement from Smith. [h/t MV]

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132 COMMENTS

    • That is the only decision that will make an impact. Taking weapons off the private sale list is exactly what the state wants.

    • I agree! Good post. That is exactly what they should do. If law abiding citizens are not allowed to own them then law enforcement shouldn’t be able to buy them either! And I am not blaming the police for this; this is the fault of corrupt politicians who are violating our Constitution, period.

  3. As I told EVERYBODY who wanted to give shit to Ruger, they were simply the first out of the gate to make the announcement and will be proceeded by many others. Blame your Legislators, not the manufacturers. This, however, should give plenty of teeth to the lawsuit stating the handgun roster is unconstitutional, now that one of the big 3 are off the table. I suspect Springfield will follow along Shortly, with Glock being the holdout.

  6. S#!t just got real.

    Now if S&W could pull a Barrett and cease LEO sales in CA too.

    Ooh! And remove the infernal wart from its revolvers.

    A boy can dream…

    • And remove the infernal wart from its revolvers.

      That things chews up my thumb knuckle when I shoot the 642. Take a high grip and get ready to bleed.

      • I was referring to the S&W key lock rather than the cylinder latch. However, not being a Smith snubbie owner, I hadn’t considered that before. I once made the mistake of affixing a ClipDraw to the right side of my LCR just below the cylinder, and promptly removed a layer of skin from the big knuckle of my right index finger. Fortunately, I could (and did) take that thing right back off. Live & learn.

        • FYI, removing the internal lock is a two minute job and does not leave a hole in the side plate, since all that needs to be removed is a small, internal leaf-like device. There are many YouTube videos that show how it’s done.

          S&W also announced that it’s phasing out the lock, which is an artifact from when Saf-T-Hammer rescued the company from its British owners.

        • Yeah, I think I saw one of those videos. [paranoid] I’m just not real big on having to meddle with the “safety” equipment in any firearm I’m going to carry. Even if that equipment would be essentially irrelevant in the event of any DGU. [/paranoid] Besides, new Smiths are expensive enough. Now, I *hadn’t* heard about that announcement. I hope they get around to implementing the change soon. Though, I’m not holding my breath, given that everything they announced at SHOT had the stupid thing. (And that Model 66 Combat Magnum looked so nice, too.)

  8. This is seriously pissing me off. I want an M&P and a Ruger, but I don’t have the funds for them nor the time in which to earn/procure aforementioned funds. This state becomes more back-asswards every damn day.

      • No, come to Virginia so we can take state senate back and make McAullife the lase Democrat governor in my life time. Virginia has much better gun laws than Texas.

        • Or Washington. Like Virginia, we have Texas’ gun laws beat and we want to keep it that way, so pro-Second Amendment voters would be greatly appreciated.

      • If you take Robert up on his suggestion, be sure to stop over in New Mexico on the way. We don’t have the people, gun stores, or other things that Texas has, but our Mexican food is way, way better.

      • Will you offer me a job? I only require food, water, shelter, and some rounds of ammo to survive.

      • As soon as I graduate with my MS in 2016, I will be moving straight to Texas. Hopefully with employment waiting for me.

        Not only will it be great to get out of this miserable state, but I will all too happily contribute to the brain-drain of CA.

    • If you think the legislators are jerks now, wait until the Panama Canal expansion gets finished in 2015 and it gets cheaper to ship to Texas or the east coast by sea than to offload in CA ports and over-land stuff. CA coffers are going to get ever drier for a number of reasons in the immediate future.

    • Come to Utah! Sure, we might only have 3.2 beer, but we’ve got more 30 round PMAGS than we know what to do with!

      Plus Jello! And funeral potatoes!

      …Idaho ain’t bad either.

  9. And stays think they can pressure gun manufacturers in to answering “common sense gun safety questions” to sell to LEOs…

    They’re giving up a chunk of their profits to prove a point. Should be interesting.

    • Are they? Or is the law written so that their guns would not pass muster? or is this a ploy to give ammo to the lawsuit against the list? Curiouser and curiouser.

    • They’re not voluntarily giving up a chunk of their profits. They’re preserving the profit stream and ROI that they have now. Just like Ruger did. They would have to completely re-tool to satisfy those idealistic morons in Sacramento. Too big a capital expense to eat for just one or two states. Their stockholders would eat them alive.

  10. I hope other gun manufacturers follow suit, and I would love to see a Denial of Service to All Law Enforcement Agencies in California as well. The rest of the United States would appreciate the increase both in weapons and ammo as well as tax revenue. Califorina can suck it.

    • A lot of us in CA do not agree with these dumbass laws. We are regular people who want our rights, just like you. It’s the masses in SF who screw it up for the rest of us. Don’t hate on the people, hate the politicians, we do…

  11. Honestly, this makes sense, these are not like 1911’s where the design is fairly static, they are constantly undergoing small changes to improve production and performance, and cal-doj is getting strict on what they call a new design, so I expect all semi-auto’s not based on 1911/other old designs to fall off within the next year or so, this is the same reason Bersa(the true start of this) had it’s guns fall off, they made a better gun, then the DOJ said that despite it working better in every respect it could not be sold.

    • If you mean “This makes sense” in terms of wanting to control guns and people’s choices, then OK, but you don’t realy mean it make any sense do you?

      • Try reading past the first half a line and you will find your answer.

        It makes sense in business terms, S&W is not going to produce an older inferior product for one state, tying up production lines that could be used for new products or for products made for the other 49 states

  13. Hopefully they won’t sell to agencies either but they haven’t been held back by any obnoxious roster.

    Hopefully this is what it will take to show the roster should be null and void.

  14. Tangentially related, but what Apex trigger mods would a person have to buy and install to get an M&P trigger to perform close to a Glock one?

    • If you’re serious, just go to the Apex web site and take your pick. The Apex kit will prove to be superior to Glock’s mushy go peddle.

      • I am in the market for a concealable polymer .45 and considering either a Glock 30s or an M&P 45 Compact.

        I had an M&P Shield at one point but I did not like the trigger.

        • Why can Hickock45 hit the gong at 80 yrds with anything he picks up and yet there those that will complain about a CCW pistol’s trigger when it is designed to be deployed at 8 yrds.
          A 250 pound guy with a knife coming at you? I don’t think your adrenaline level is going to have you thinking of a tactile nor audible trigger reset click nor thinking “what a gritty pull this trigger has”.

          I don’t think you are using your Shield for an IDPA match are you?

        • If I don’t enjoy shooting a self-defense gun I’m not going to train with it as much as I should, KCK.

          Personally, I try not to own things that I don’t particularly like. If I can change something on a gun to make it more to my liking I will. I’m picky that way and I have a right to be with my hard-earned money, last I checked.

          Over the years I’ve improved numerous guns that I wanted to like but initially found lacking in some way.

          Thank god for choices and aftermarket parts, eh?

          And IIRC, Hickok is of the same mindset. He tailors his guns to fit him and to his liking. I know for a fact he puts stock extensions on some of them to fit him better, changes grips, etc.

    • Just finished the APEX FSS install on my .40 and it shoots way better than a glock… if i had to compare it to another gun i would say it shoots more like a 1911. 🙂 very happy and would trade my M&P for anything at this point 🙂

      • M&Ps with Apex triggers are really nice. I honestly have no idea why they don’t outsell Glocks.

        • I love my M&P 9 except for the trigger. I have an XD40 which I think has a nicer trigger. The M&P is a little too mushy to me although with practice I can now easily hit the reset point. I do plan on an Apex trigger for it as it will be my competition gun. It points well, makes me feel like a pistol marksman has ran absolutely flawless. I also got it cheap when I lived in MA. Maybe it has a special MA “made to suck” trigger?

        • I’ve just bought a Cabelas fde M&P9 with the new trigger. Its awesome. The stock sear is better than the Apex hard sear. I installed it and it was actually worse so I switched back. Trigger was a little gritty new, but its smoothed out nicely in the last week/hundreds of rounds. Nice break, trigger resets with an audible snap.

    • Michael – I just bought the M&P 40 Compact. If you buy JUST the Apex Trigger without any of the Action Enhancement Kits, it will come with an improved sear spring to balance out the changed geometry. You will then have a Glock-type trigger.

      The DCAEK kit has a new sear, sear spring, and improved striker block (which will fix the gritty uptake feeling). There are slight overlaps between the DCAEK and the Apex Trigger (sear spring) and I think you should use the Apex trigger sear spring if you have to choose.

      Lastly, Apex also makes an Forward Set Sear kit that comes with a trigger that is NOT interchangeable with the other Apex trigger. This reduces uptake considerably and supposedly makes the trigger more 1911-like. I haven’t tried it.

      My M&P has the DCAEK kit, and I’m dropping in the Apex trigger soon.

  15. Why is this news? Just about every new pistol produced isn’t on the Massachusetts AG’s mysterious approved list. The only difference is that S&W resides in MA; someone tell me when S&W decides to leave, that’ll be news…

    • In MA, there’s the List and there’s the AG regulations. Handguns have to be both on the List AND meet the AG’s bogus safety requirements.

      Just because a handgun is on the List doesn’t mean that it’s legal for FFLs to sell them to the public in MA. How’s that for being fvcked up?

  16. I looked at the list, and some of the M&P pistols have list expiration dates out as far as July and September. So I think it’s hyperbole for Guns Direct to say that “all the M&P pistols” will fall off in the next 60 days. However, I think all (or almost all) of the M&P .45 caliber pistols do fall off in that period, as well as one M&P .40. It’s also not out of line to assume that if they’re letting the .45s fall off in the next 60 days, they’ll probably also let the 9mms and the rest of the .40s fall off whenever they come due.

  17. California residents dont need guns, they have Hollywood movies and Harvey Weinstein to provide.

    • There’s more gun owners in California (9 million) than 40 of the states have in total population.

      Large manufacturers cannot ignore such a large block of potential buyers.

      I don’t see many M&Ps at the range anyways. No loss here.

      • Those 40 states probably have more gun owners than Cali when combined and don’t require fairy unicorn magic, leprechaun gold, and wizards to declare the gun fit for the one list to rule them all.

  18. S&W Is such a two faced company, They Sold a huge contract to a Calif LE, but decides to drop their pistols for the public. The Shield (Which is more than 1 year backordered), Haven’t seen the light of day. If they were going to do this they should have just said no more gun to calif period instead of wussing out and said no more M&P’s. Same with Ruger. Just giving lame excuse. Pulling one particular category or model won’t do anything as they still sell other items.

    • I think we’re taking the wrong approach here. We’re getting mad at a business for making a business decision.

      As a California resident, I’m more than a little concerned about the safety of our LEO community. Do your City Council people know that their officers are carrying “unsafe” guns? If they’re not on the “safe” list what could they be other than “unsafe”? “Unsafe” guns being openly carried amongst women, children, minority youth and everyone else. Oh, the horror.

      • Ca police have been exempt from the roster since it’s inception. So really not much changes for them unless manufacturers decide not to sell to them.

        • And that at most effects their budget. LE typically buys direct in numbers in order to get better pricing. But there is nothing stopping LAPD from ordering guns from retailers, probably at an inflated price but even that is not certain.

  19. I’m a little behind on the tech, but has ANYONE been able to successfully implement microstamping?

    • Unless gun manufacturers start making slides and firing pins out of adamantium and also make it so that you can’t replace either one with aftermarket parts, I can think of no way that it ever could be considered “successful,” even by gun-grabber standards. Except for the fact that it would piss off gun owners and drive manufacturers out of the state…

      …which is probably all they were aiming for when they passed the nonsense.

    • Yes, if you mean has someone taken a current pistol and implemented mircostamping on its design. Indeed, Todd Lizotte used a Ruger Mark III.

      No, if you mean as a viable element of mass produced guns. Indeed, the Lizotte fellow behind this garbage dismissed studies showing it was ineffective by whining that the mircostamping must be “optimized” to each individual gun. Hence an expensive, individual process, not mass production technology.

  20. Whats the deal.
    Are they grandfathered if you already have one?

    I’m from Wisconsin so it is curiosity not necessity.

  21. As others have said, I do hope the manufacturers will include tie willingness to sell to any state agency to the ability to sell to the public. It would be even better if some of the ammunition and accessory manufacturers would step up and pull out, as well.

    The market – both businesses and consumers – has incredible power to act against these kind of regulations it they have the cajones to actually exercise that power. It is not always instant gratification, but persistence could well give a much more long term solution.

  22. They also need to make sure law enforcement depts don’t “gray market” guns from elsewhere and then ship to Cali. Deny po-po all of the warranty and parts. Trace your product in supply. Force them to shut down. Also need to get ammo makers on this boycott!!

    • That takes a lot more work and effort than just not paying to get a gun reapproved. I wouldn’t count on it.

      • Not really. The data is already there. They just have to mine it. We have to have similar data management in my regulated industry (medical devices).

  23. I’d love to see CA as the test case for when politicians force people to choose between violating a dumb law and their own safety.

  24. The only people that this effects is the common folk of CA, as it does not pertain to law enforcement at all, as it never has. The roster only ever applied to the citizens and never to LEO as they can buy any “legal” firearms here in CA regardless of whether or not it is on the approved roster. There are many gun shops that have plenty of pistols that are not on the approved for serfs roster but are solely sold to LEO. Even if they cannot find it in the stores here locally they can still order them and have them shipped here/ The manufactures do and will continue to sell to LEO agencies in CA as a lot of the big name companies have contracts with them, such as S&W. S&W is one of if not the main provider of issued handguns for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

    • I think most of us understand that. But it’s the manufacturers’ choice whether to sell to LEO. There isn’t a requirement for them to engage in those sales. What’s being floated around is pretty much the reverse of that MDA/MAIG bit about municipalities requiring certain “behaviours” from gun vendors to get a contract.

  26. So at the end of the day, isn’t this exactly what the grabbers want? Comments on here seem to reflect that in some way this is a win against the CA government. In reality it’s just one more category of guns that the legislature has been able to effectively ban, and certainly one that is in common use.

    • The hope is that 1: if enough guns become non compliant it will force the overturn of the registry on the grounds that it is a defacto ban. and 2: as these laws become a real issue for more and more people who are perhaps not concerned with restrictions up until now public opinion will sway enough to force one way or another a change in policy if not legislation.

  27. This is actually a good thing. Once it becomes hard to purchase a firearm for personal protection the laws can be pulled into court easily and overturned on 2nd amendment grounds.

  28. I do see the M&P 9c isn’t listed anymore on the CA-DOJ Roster, but it appears that the M&P 9 was bumped out to August 16th 2014. Previous expire date was Jan 16th 2014.

    *IF* S&W does plan to make a change to the CA compliant gun, then it will go off roster a lot sooner.

    Unfortunately this is going to hurt LGS as they all seem to have growing inventory that is LEO/CA-Exempt only (i.e. Ruger).

    There is no doubt this will help the current case against CA-DOJ and our AG, but it’s going to hurt for a bit while our freedom gets sorted out. =\

  29. I’d like to be the first person to say that I really appreciate seeing all of the intelligent gun owner comments on this topic. It warms my heart to know there are people out there that actually have a brain and know how to apply it’s wealth of knowledge. It always seems like everyone near me just lacks common sense and enough knowledge to talk about weapons in an informative manner. You all get a gold star from me for being incredibly well mannered and disciplined!

      • Rollo, Where did you get condescension from in that reply? I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment and take no offense whatsoever from it.

        Some days I’m downright proud to be a part of a community(TTAG) that can use actual FACTS to debate a stance pro or con without resorting to irrational fears and feelings as evidence.

  30. Any chance of getting gunmakers on board for a boycott of CA law enforcement agencies? If I cant own a 4th Gen Glock in CA because its too unsafe, then why can the state of CA be able to purchase them?

  31. If only Big Tobacco back in the 90’s had had the [fortitude] to do this and just pull their products from the offending states, then perhaps they wouldn’t have had to fork over billions of dollars to money grubbing politicians in settlements (which states have already blown through, by the way). I’ve always said that if the local pols want to cast you as the bad guy, then follow through on it and see what your customers/their constituents have to say about it.

  33. I’m not buying the story.

    Its from a gun store trying to have a sale …. no where on the net is there an actual announcement from S&W.

    There was similar hysteria at the end of 2012 when people thought the Gen 3 Glocks were all going to disappear. Once you’re on the list you stay on the list – so long as you remember to file your registration paperwork on time.

    Until S&W make an actual statement – I don’t see the M&Ps going anywhere……

    If this was a real threat – S&W would have made an announcement at the Shot show …..

    • i dont think you understand what law just passed. here in California we passed a law that says all pistols selling here have to have laser engraved barrels and firing pins that etch all you guns info into the round and the case every time you shoot a round. gun manufactures are refusing to do that just for California as such the list is only going to get smaller

  34. I called the Customer Service Line. The fellow I talked to knew nothing about this. For myself and my fellow Lost Souls of California my advice is this: Follow the drop dates on the Roster. I do not know what else to make of this.

  35. The S&W models will remain on the roster, without any mircostamping, as long as S&W produces them. Since they made specific CA-compliant guns, it would be simple enough not to implement any changes to those sub-models that might otherwise be made for the standard model. As long as the design is frozen in time, the gun can remain.

    So the only question is, is SW abandoning CA-compliant lines, and if so is the reason actually related to mircostamping? Probably….not. It would be related to whether it is profitable to manufacture handguns distinctly for CA. They already do this, no need to microstamp. If that is still profitable and they do pull out, then it would have to be part of some stratergy against the roster itself or like laws (long term business interest). Otherwise it is because it is more profitable to discontinue distinct lines (short term interest).

  36. All you conservative gun owners, come on up to Orygun.
    Gun registration-nope
    Face to face sales without checking in with government- check
    SBR- check
    Supressor/silencer-check
    Full auto – check
    Open carry- check
    Concealed carry- (ok, that darn permit thing, but at least it’s ‘shall issue’). Actually, tho, concealed carry is valid without a permit if you are on your way to or from target practice, hunting or fishing. So, check mate.
    Ammo-check
    Guns for sale in department stores- check
    Public land to go shooting within 30 minutes from just about anywhere-check

    Too many demoncrats- check

    • Reciprocity with nobody – check.

      That’s actually the one knock I have on Orygun’s laws, which otherwise are excellent. Also, Northwest weather, while drab, is pretty much never lethal, so keep that in mind, people from freezing or burning death traps.

  37. Personally, I like it when liberals disarm themselves. If the liberals take this tyranny thing too far, and the people rise up against them, California will fall quickly. 🙂

  38. do you still believe in ‘common sense ‘ INFRINGEMENT……Keep getting and passing Unconstitutional laws…with open borders….then maybe some of the Mexican ‘citizens militia’s’ will come to your aid…and overthrow corruption and insane politicians…….imho

  39. During the Cold War there was the Inter-German border. The enlightened luminaries of the People’s Republic of Commifornia had better create a barrier that makes the IGB or the current USA-Mexico border look like a turnstile to stop firearms from leaking in from other states and formerly loyal subjects from getting out.

    Expect to hear “YOUR PAPERS!” on your next visit.

  40. California is a state that should fall off the map into the Pacific Ocean or annexed by Communist China. I think all gun manufacturers should boycott California and it’s extreme leftist politics. California is a police state which has a proven track record of violating civil liberties to law abiding gun owners and enforcing draconian laws in all aspects of it’s citizens lives. Has one of the highest costs of living in this nation and is not run from Sacramento but by Hollywood. Time for any California resident with any balls and brains and loves freedom to defect to Texas.

  41. I think this is where High Point should step up and try to be the CA DOJ’s main weapon of choice!!! I think it would only be fitting for California.

  42. Interesting, LA County Sheriff’s office just signed a contract with S&W, after dropping Glock as their “issued weapon”.

  43. Hope the Bloods and Crips are aware of this. Wouldn’t want them to violate a law or something.

  45. If S&W chooses not to sell firearms in CA, I would urge them to discontinue selling firearms to law enforcement agencies in CA. as well… Furthermore i would also encourage Glock and Beretta to do the same…..

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