Bump fire stock ban atf trump
Bump stock outfitted AR.

Time to lay in a heavier supply of popcorn. Today the Supreme Court granted cert in Garland v. Cargill, the case challenging the Trump era bump stock ban. The about face by the ATF following the Las Vegas mass shooting came at the direction of the Trump administration. ATF, which had previously approved sales of bump fire stocks as legal accessories used regulatory fiat to do a 180 and reclassify them as machine guns.

The Supreme Court’s hand was forced here by a circuit court split. While bump stock bans had been upheld in the Tenth and D.C. Circuit Courts of Appeals, the Fifth and Sixth Circuits ruled the ban unconstitutional.

From NBC News . . .

Those challenging the ban said the legal definition of machine gun has been distorted beyond recognition and argue that courts should not defer to the federal agency’s interpretation.

Well yes. The definition of a machine gun has been established in law by Congress. The Chevron deference that courts usually give to federal regulatory agencies doesn’t apply in this case because of the clear redefinition of what constitutes a machine gun under the Gun Control Act of 1934. ATF bases its expanded redefinition of bump stocks on the 1968 Gun Control Act.

We shall see which version prevails. Court watchers have guessed that the Justices are looking for ways of chopping the legs out from under Chevron deference. This may give them a good opportunity to do just that.

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64 COMMENTS

  1. “Adding a second gun clash to their 2023-24 agenda, the justices said they will resolve lower court disagreement over a prohibition the Trump administration put in place after the 2017 Las Vegas concert massacre. A man using bump stocks killed 60 people in that attack, the deadliest mass shooting in modern American history.”

    Yep, the Obama/Biden administration approved bump stocks, and then Donald Trump was elected…

    “a prohibition the Trump administration put in place… “

      • “The greatest part is everyone has something to be pleased with.”

        For now. If the ruling comes back that the *ATF* cannot do it by fiat, there’s not a damn thing we can do if the congress decides that bump stocks can be regulated.

        It seems to me that what we need is a definitive answer that says even congress cannot ban them.

        Or did I pick the wrong time to quit main-lining heroin?

        • Tourniquet first than stitches. Eventually a lot of strong rulings on multiple facets in the Bill of Rights re restraining government in all facets against individual liberties will be needed but the administrative state is for the moment far worse than what congress can make happen.

      • minor49iq…Once again for morons like you who read only the headlines…Had POTUS DJT not thrown bump stocks under the bus and allowed congress to take the wheel with their hit list there could have been in the end more than just bump stocks gone. Any questions or commits can be directed to Allen Gottlieb.
        Now where is your outrage over a sicko stabbing a defenseless person 114 times? Should we march to bans the knives in your home? Yes or No.
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=mDD8flMdwTg&feature=shared

        • The Republican Congress? Are we their parents? When did it become our job to stop them from committing career suicide?

      • The NRA and the rest of the “gun community” have never supported the widespread ownership of machine guns to the general population.
        They in secret, support the National Firearms Act. Also the majority of criminals using these rapid-fire devices are black teenagers.

        Who are nearly all from fatherless homes. Because the libertarians liberals the left, the hom0sexuals and atheists all disagree with the Christians. When the Christians said a father is necessary in the home.

        Unfortunately the father’s love and discipline had been replaced by a government welfare check. And the father’s guns have been replaced by the guns of a big city police department. And Many of those police departments got machine guns for free from the Obama/Biden administration.

        • Twenty first century gun technology is a wonderful thing. But if you don’t have the wisdom and the discipline that goes with it? You will be in a terrible situation that will eventually be coming to you.

        • The old guard doesn’t want their investments to lose value.
          They’re like all the old real estate owners who municipal codes locked in the dark ages because anything new might lower their property values.

    • MINOR49er. And now we will see if that ban was constitutional or not. I am pretty sure you will not be happy with the court’s decision.

  2. I’m happy the US Supreme Court is going to take a look at bump fire stocks. From much of what I heard, it’s clear bump fire stocks do not turn a semi automatic into a full auto , based on its function.

    How many pulls of the trigger…
    It will be nice to see some kind of protection granted for these devices.

    While a machine gun a bump fire stock does not make- for all the thousands of owners and 2A rights advocates, it may be the next best thing until the day when/if we see full autos for sale again at FFLs.

  3. Now if this swings the freedom way, and Thomas gets to make the decision, my hope is he will reign in the ATF entirely by stating any regulation which carries penalties of law made by the ATF and not through congress are unconstitutional.
    That would clear out a ton of bad ATF regulations in one swoop. The receiver rule, the pistol brace rule, and bump stock rule come to mind.
    It probably wont happen but I can dream right?

    • “That would clear out a ton of bad ATF regulations in one swoop. The receiver rule, the pistol brace rule, and bump stock rule come to mind.”

      We might not like where this leads.

      After all, it was the ATF that deemed they were allowable in the first place, wasn’t it?

      Will that now mean we are back to ‘square 1’ with minimum overall length requirements, so they will be treated like SBRs and the required stamp?

      • “After all, it was Obama/Biden’s ATF that deemed they were allowable in the first place, wasn’t it?“

        Yes, and Trump’s administration banned them…

        • MINOR49er, the Trump Administration may not have been perfect, but compared to Sleepy Joe’s it was a God send. (sorry, I know you don’t beleive in God)

  4. Cautiously optimistic on this… however anything “machine gun” related is usually where even Republicans are happy to wield the ban hammer, even Internet posters here who see machine guns as a waste of ammo and bump stocks as dumb.

    You would think by them taking the case they are intending to do more than just say “the ban stands.”

    This might be further precedent to end pistol brace and receiver rule changes. But anything can happen…

    Any decision is too late since Slidefire died, liquidated tens of thousands of bump stocks, which were then destroyed at ATF order, jobs lost, dealer inventory gone, citizens forced to destroy or turn in lawfully purchased items, people at risk for prosecution, since there was no injunction.
    Government agencies can seemingly just make up new laws and crimes and see if they stick after years of court appeals, and if, big if, they finally get restrained, just an “ah, rats! foiled again!” from the ATF, but no lasting penalty.

    • I think bump stocks are dumb toys, but I also think that the ATF overstepped by reclassifying them as machine guns. The agency is headed by dyed in the wool gun banners seeking any way it can to limit the availability of firearms but without Congressional authority and in violation of the Second Amendment.

    • I hate to be optimistic. Every time you think these gods-in-robes will rule in favor of the Constitution, they turn around and stab us in the back as if to say “just kidding”. I do not trust a one of them, except maybe for Gorsuch and Thomas. The rest of them are spineless jelly fish.

        • Thank you for the article, Dude. I found it interesting and informative. It is probably something I should have learned in a U.S. gov’t class somewhere along the way? Based on what was written, there should be no question as to how these gods-in-robes should rule. And one should rest easy knowing our Second Amendment Rights are secure. But, I learned long ago not to trust political officials, no matter what label they are wearing. One can hope, though…

      • “Every time you think these gods-in-robes will rule in favor of the Constitution, they turn around and stab us in the back as if to say “just kidding”.”

        Like the recent ‘Bruen’ ruling that forces all 50 states to issue, at a minimum, a concealed carry permit?

    • Bump stocks are dumb, but all gun laws are also infringements.

      Last I checked being stupid isn’t a criminal offense, otherwise Dacian and Minor and ~80% of the DNC would be tossed under the prison.

  5. ACB will stab us in the back along with Roberts. Those two big-government Statists have been signaling weak on our human rights when it comes to the second amendment

    • I’m more concerned with Kavanaugh. He’s not the true conservative we all had hoped for. I think he has some form of PTSD from the hearings, which was likely the entire point of the hell that the whores they hired put him through.

      • Kavanaugh has always been a DC-centric type, similar to Roberts. So far, he’s actually been better than I expected on 2A cases (his questioning at the Bruen argument left no room for doubt that he was on Team Thomas).
        ACB is the one I’m currently most worried about. At least on Shadow Docket stuff, she and Roberts have allied with the Three Stooges to stay various injunctions that ordinarily would have been left in place. We’ll see if that carries over to her views on the merits or is just a proceduralist blip.
        We should know a LOT more Tuesday morning after listening to the Rahimi argument.

  6. I remember Certs, they really didnt do all that much for your breath after you’ve gnawed on a road kill armadillo.

  7. Lets hope for a Bruen II where we get lots of side issues resolved too.
    Given the apoplexy of leftist legislatures post Bruen I think its likely.

    • “Lets hope for a Bruen II where we get lots of side issues resolved too.”

      Our side of the SCotUS has seen the games they have played post-‘Bruen’ and ‘Heller’, and may have something planned to deal with it.

      I hope… 🙁

  8. What we really need is for SCOTUS to grant cert for BOTH the 9th circuit cases Miller vs Bonta and Duncan vs Bonta that have been bouncing back and forth for years. These cases will affect over 120 million people who live in CA, OR, WA, HI, IL, MD, NY, NJ, DE, MA, CT, DC, VT, CO, RI or anywhere you can’t buy a common semi-auto “para military” style rifle or magazine over 10 rounds.

  9. It shouldn’t be illegal, but it is just another range toy. It’s difficult for me to become excited.

    • Could reduce the ability of ATF as well as the executive branch to abuse authority and make changes without input from the legislative branch. Will matter how things are argued and interpreted.

    • I wish people would not use the term “range toy.” I have used it previously and I stopped. Because I came to realize that this is not 1850. We are in the 21st century. And we cannot simply shoot our guns outdoors, wherever and whenever we want to.

      We have to pay a fee to go to a private range to practice. More power to you if you’re one of the few who owns land. And can do what you want on your own land.

      If you’re one of the lucky ones who has a public range, you can go to? Please take care of it. Don’t abuse the privilege and get the range shut down.

      I have fun going to the range I hope everyone does. But I always keep in mind that I’m practicing because I might have to do this for real. And since the year 2020, the summer of love, the chances are increasing that many of us, “will have to do this for real”.

      • Well that was at the same time sobering and painful to read. Well done that articulated several issues very effectively.

        • But, their banishment is another toe in the door of acceptance and ‘common sense’ to a get deal of the populace. Remember Liberal ideology is about the slow creep of indoctrination and removing anything/anyone who doesn’t prescribe to their religion.

      • My nephew bought 30acres and was going to turn it into a public shooting range but with all the legalities associated with an accident decided Family only.
        Lawyers and irresponsible people blaming their accidents on those who provided them benefits have ruined a lot of nice things.
        We used to swim in Rock Quarries however a drowning and a lawsuit has spooked all land owners who have a swimming hole.
        A poacher climbing a fence to hunt, ripping their skin open and getting tetanus is now the fence owners liability .
        Lawyers and lawsuits
        doesn’t make America very Free

  11. “ATF bases its expanded redefinition of bump stocks on the 1968 Gun Control Act.”

    And from reading the text of the GCA of 1968, the ATF is indisputably wrong.

    We all know that the NFA of 1934 defines a machine gun as requiring multiple shots from a SINGLE trigger action. The GCA of 1968 included parts to CONVERT a non-machine gun TO a machine gun.

    Bump stocks do no such thing, and ATF knows this. Their lawyers should be disbarred for outright LYING about this.

    The only way you could consider a bump stock to be a machine gun (conversion part, per GCA 1968) would be to completely redefine what the term “machine gun” means, probably based on some arbitrary rate of fire. To the best of my knowledge, Congress has never even started to consider such a change.

    From the GCA of 1968:

    The term “machinegun” means any weapon which
    shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily re-
    stored to shoot, automatically more than one shot,
    without manual reloading, by a single function of the
    trigger. The term shall also include the frame or re-
    ceiver of any such weapon, any part designed and in-
    tended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts
    designed and intended, for use in converting a
    weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of
    parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
    such parts are in the possession or under the control
    of a person.

  12. They should (but sadly won’t) just kill the entire NFA. Its creators admitted it was unconstitutional and framing it as a tax was a weasel, and that weasel was shut down in Grosjean v. American Press Co a couple years later.

  13. The leftys in charge will just ignore the supreme court’s verdict like always anyway, so should we give a flip?

  14. My concern here is that an unelected regulatory agency is allowed to, in every effect, create law without going through the Constitutional process. If the bump stock ban (or pistol brace one as well) is allowed to stand, why wouldn’t ATF be emboldened enough to do away with suppressors as well in the very near future? They probably figure the government has made about as much money by now as they will via the $200 tax fee, so WTH? As with the braces and stocks- it’s not like ATF, or the government, will have to reimburse the owners.

    NFA aside, a regulatory agency should not be creating law, particularly when the object they are now attempting to do away with is something that they originally signed off on, giving the go-ahead. I suppose this is the same process the Dept of Transportation, or OSHA, or EPA will use when “they” decide we all must junk out our internal combustion engine-powered vehicles.

    I see the fishing tournament “tours” are on the verge of outlawing 2-stroke outboards and lead tackle of any kind in their competitions. Kawasaki dealerships will no longer work on my 2005 2-stroke jet ski. One way or another, with the encouragement of government agencies, they are seeking to change my chosen, legal behaviors.

    I guess “pro choice” only works one way…

    • Have you thought of purchasing an Electric powered Jet Ski?
      The speed may be a shocking experience.
      Could also bring a whole different aspect to Harold Ensleys ” Gone Fishin”

    • I had a Kawasaki 550 back in the day. Back then, the 550 wasn’t even the smallest jet ski. It had a hole in the back with a warning sticker that said no towing/skiing. So of course we used it to pull a skier. It took some time to initially pull the skier out of the water.

  15. The greater issue is Chevron Deference that is one of several disparate laws that enable the Administrative State. The Supremes already dealt Chevron Deference a mighty blow in West Virginia vs EPA as there are several pulverized coal fired power plants in various stages of reopening and it will really amuse me to no end if a lowly molded plastic range toy ends up a nail in the coffin of the Administrative State currently threatening our nation.

  16. i disagree with everyone here
    who thinks that these are just range toys
    if they were just range toys
    novelties
    and not effective tools of gunfighting
    the government wouldnt have done what it did
    in las vegas in 2018
    to get them banned in the first place

    • “…the government wouldnt have done what it did
      in las vegas in 2018
      to get them banned in the first place”

      There has really been little evidence, or even real investigative news at all that came to light from that incident. Having shot a couple of Slidefire ARs, the recordings I’ve heard from the Vegas incident sound more like real FA than what I remember from the “bump” stocks.

      There’s something radically wrong with the coverage and stories of the Vegas, and Nashville shooting incidents, to name a couple- lots that the “authorities” do not want the general public to learn and know. Definitely not supportive of the standard narrative. And around TTAG and elsewhere, I’d hardly be one known to, or thought of, as a person to see black helicopters…

  17. UMMM, SCOTUS already ruled that in Heller, McDonald and Bruen: Law abiding citizens have the right to carry hand held, individually fired firearms, even if they resemble military guns, including high cap mags and bump stocks.

  19. While the ATF was and is completely wrong in their politically motivated reinterpretation for all the reasons already mentioned, I have to admit, I wish the Court weren’t spending time on this while certain states are causing legitimate harm with their bans on standard capacity magazines and semiautomatic rifles.

  20. Meanwhile ARs and large capacity magazines are being banned in several states. Maybe after range toys are given back the court can work on nulifying the illegal bans.

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