Terrorist attack at Nairobi mall (courtesy retuers.com)

“Militant gunmen stormed a shopping mall in Nairobi on Saturday killing at least 25 people, including children, and sending scores fleeing in panic from shops and restaurants onto the streets, according to witnesses and the Red Cross,” Reuters reports. While the details of the attack are still emerging, it’s not too early to point out that America is not safe from militants, either. And while the current “debate” on gun control vacillates  between the right to keep and bear arms and the failure of our mental health system, it behooves us to remember that we need to be armed against organized attackers. Multiple organized attackers. And by “we” I mean . . .

you and me and any other law abiding America who’s willing to take on the responsibility of armed self-defense. And defense of innocent life. We are the first responders.

Click here for Kenya’s gun laws, which are in the midst of getting “tougher.” Here’s a first-hand view of a disarmed people via tommukuha.blogspot.com:

I am a gun owner and don’t like the NRA, but when they say, ‘when guns are outlawed then. Only outlaws will have guns,’ they are correct. No one is safe, the reason I am writing this article is to drum up support for gun ownership in Kenya. Guns are dangerous but Make no mistake, when only the police have guns, no one is safe. Even the wanton killing by the trigger happy police does not deter crime. The only safety is when you’re at home and behind locked bars. Bars everywhere, doors, windows, gates, everywhere outside security guards armed with a machete (if you pay extra). The Guard comes at 6 and going home to a tin shack where there is no food. The bed is infested by bed bugs, no running water indoor plumbing and defiantly no toilets (except the flying once) his job is to stand guard waiting inside a locked gate surrounded by wall around our house. This is a terrible way to live both for the middle class and the watchman day and night the stress of crime is intoxicating and exhausting. My question is does anyone wonder when they are snug in bed, what the watchman is think in the cold scared of the thugs knowing that they will come with guns or bows and arrows.

The only hope a Kenyan trapped in a house surrounded by 20 to 30 thugs high on 100 percent quality changa’a is to call 999 if the phone has credit or the network is good enough. Emergency response arrives a few hours later on foot after taking a bus and walking for hours too late to prevent anything. So who is failing here? I will answer this question this way the Kenyan people are failing they have been brain washed to believe that the outdated police response is capable of working in a congested community. The government through propaganda is failing to protect the security of the individual and property. Kenya is hence a state where life is brutish, hash and nasty because of laws placed by someone who has guards 24/7. There was no consultation when these laws were placed no studies if there were any they should have realized that countries with gun ownership legislation are the safest to live in. good example right next door Kenya.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims.

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61 COMMENTS

  2. This is why a carry gun with less then ten rounds can be a liability .8 shots is all well and good against a mugger in an alley,but what about an AK packing terrorist between your family and the exit?

      • You set up the scenario so what is your solution. My answer is anything is better then nothing which is what the ultimate libiturd goal is. Yes I legally carry with extra mags at the ready. If I misread or interpreted it then I apologize.

        • Daniel.. I think he meant the Ak-wielding terrorist bit as a joke…

          Lets talk about the real danger on our streets – gangs of sharks with lazer beams on their heads.

    • I have a Washington state Concealed Pistol License. I’d love to be able to carry my full size S&W SD9 everywhere I go. It never jams (never), it holds 16+1, and I shoot it really damn well. Unfortunately, I’m 5’6″, 140lbs, and trying to conceal it is an exercise in futility, so on the night stand it sits. Concealed means concealed (open carrying is not something I’m willing to do in the Seattle area…), which means compromise. To echo Daniel Raidt, be prepared and do the best you can with what you’ve got.

    • If you were in a mall carrying concealed and a group of men, armed with grenades and actual AK-47’s with a somewhat cohesive plan started tearing the place up, an extra couple of rounds out of a full size handgun is going to do what here? I’m sure I’ll piss off some people here by saying this, but in a case like this, if you’re not in the mall for a rifle convention with a bunch of your experienced and similarly armed friends, try another exit. Sure, there’s always going to be an exception, but if a bunch of well armed “I’m going to die for Allah” types are coming in from all the egress points, you better make the first few count, because you’re probably not going to get a full magazine accurately down range amidst the hail of 7.62 fire. Flame away guys.

      • Your solution would be ? Mine would be Get the F**k out of there if possible, Not every one with a CWP has a Rambo complex.

        • Did you miss the “try another exit” part of the post? I concur with your approach and your CWP assessment.

      • If I have an escape route I will take it, but if not, I would at least like to have a chance at taking one or two of the bastards with me.

        • I completely agree Josh. I just don’t understand the OP trying to turn this particular scenario into the age old “capacity vs placement/concealment” argument.

      • NYC2AZ,

        It certainly is a dire situation if you have nothing but a handgun facing multiple criminals with rifles. If you do nothing, you die. So why not choose the exit with the fewest number of criminals and do your best? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

        Of course you have to be cunning in that scenario. That last thing you should do is simply run in the open blasting away. Use as much cover and concealment as possible. Move as fast as possible when not behind such cover and concealment. Choose your exit wisely. Almost every store in a mall has a back exit and it would next to impossible for the criminals to cover every exit.

        And look for anything else on hand that could be useful. Is there a product in a store that could distract the attackers? Is there a product in the store that could create smoke or fog so the attackers cannot see? Is there something that you could use for improvised “armor”?

        I am reminded of the story of a sniper in Vietnam. In the confusion of battle, the sniper realized that he had to move quickly to support his unit. As he was jogging through the jungle, he stumbled upon a few enemy soldiers with full auto AK47 rifles at a distance of roughly 40 feet or so. He had his sniper rifle which was utterly useless in that scenario. He also had a .38 Special revolver and a 1911 in .45 ACP. He made a split second decision to rush the enemy soldiers with both handguns blazing (one in each hand). His speed and violence of action surprised the enemy soldiers. He manged to shoot at least two of them and they all retreated. Most importantly, he was not injured and rejoined his unit. The same tactic could apply to an armed shopper in a mall.

        • UncSen,

          I agree with most of what you said except that Islamists probably won’t retreat on this type of mission like the VC/NVA did in your example. My post was generally directed at ST trying to make this a round capacity argument during a situation that required what you describe, thoughtful evasion and calculated engagement if necessary.

        • To do so,you’ll need bullets yes?

          It’s not about the politics.It’s about the situation being that if the only way out is blocked by a scumbag with an AK,packing 8 rounds with one reload puts you at an even worse place then having ,say,18 in the gun and 17 more with a reload.

          On two way ranges,people have a habit of missing.

        • ST said: “To do so,you’ll need bullets yes?”

          Very true, but I fail to see how your quasi-ridicule of people that don’t (read can’t) carry a full size G17 are in any way going to be better off if they can’t conceal said firearm when suicide intentioned jihadists are engaging you first because of that big piece of polymer and steel on your hip.

          ST Said: “It’s not about the politics.It’s about the situation being that if the only way out is blocked by a scumbag with an AK,packing 8 rounds with one reload puts you at an even worse place then having ,say,18 in the gun and 17 more with a reload.”

          What is “worse” about having a gun that you can conceal and shoot accurately with 8 – 12 shots, than having a gun that you can’t conceal and can shoot accurately that may have 15 – 17? In a situation like this, a non-concealable firearm makes you the primary target for being an initial victim. People carry what they can with what they are wearing. Not everybody can body carry a full size 92f or XD. I’d rather see a person carry what they can and be proficient in using it than for the even more remote than being mugged chance of being in a mall that was attacked by al qaeda. You are making a blanket statement here and that is my only issue with what you are saying. We should encourage people to carry and carry what they are comfortable carrying, not have an open statement of ridicule toward people that carry sub compacts or single-stacks.

          ST Said: “On two way ranges,people have a habit of missing.”

          Very true, even more so when the other guys don’t really care about dying or how many rounds you have in your handgun when they open up with an actual AK47 and lob a couple of grenades in your direction if you fail to put them down with your opening shots.

          Here’s a thought experiment. Of the 60+ people that were killed in this particular attack, do you think any of them were thinking “Wow, I wish I had a gun with 17+ rounds” or maybe at least a couple of them were thinking “Wow, I wish I had a gun”.

      • Maybe I couldn’t finish off all the terrorists with my weapon, but perhaps I could hold them off long enough so that my family can escape.

    • I go to school with a guy who was raised in Kenya.The gun laws are like Los Angeles:that is, only scumbags and some government employees have permission to own firearms.Everyone else gets beaten ,assaulted,or killed.

  5. Who do we know with any ties to Kenya? Why would we care anything about what Kenya’s gun laws are like? What are the chances that any American politician would think similar laws would be appropriate in this country? Oh, wait…

  6. Driving into Nairobi airport one day I came across a police officer with an HK-G3, he had the muzzle against his chest and was scratching his leg on the magazine, really squared away folks… TIA.

      • I have seen similar things as well. I am guessing the higher ups are untrusting sorts plus given the training some of them appear to have it may be a safety measure, lmao. However, who wants to bluff and find out?

  8. Individual citizens have no chance defending against multiple organized attackers armed with AKs. Unlike a circumstance where the attacker(s) focus on specific targets, these guys will shoot anything that moves, and a lot that doesn’t. And unlike your typical robber or mugger, who really does not want to get hurt, these guys have already consigned themselves to death. And this state of affairs will continue until they lose unit cohesion. We have not had any attack here like this attack in Kenya; rather, we seem to have (aside from Columbine) the single deranged individual that perhaps can be stopped by a single armed citizen.

    • Exactly. So far in America this is the hollywood scenario. It’s never happened anywhere but in an action movie. Not saying it can’t happen. But if it does 1 permit holder with a kel tec pf9 isn’t going to change the outcome.

      This one scenario is the proof that we need swat and armored vehicles in the hands of 5-0.

      As for us being first responders. How many of us, RF included, have stated that our guns are only to protect us and our loved ones. RF would do only as much firing as needed to get him and Lola to the exit.

      Which is exactly how much fighting I would do. Protect me and mine. Which again brings us back to swat and armored vehicles. The police response here is faster than Kenya.

      We POTG have very valid and constitutional reasons for carrying our guns. But clearing a mall of a terrorist suicide squad is about last on our list of needs.

      • “We POTG have very valid and constitutional reasons for carrying our guns. But clearing a mall of a terrorist suicide squad is about last on our list of needs.”

        Very true.

        If I were to participate in clearing the mall as a member of the militia, I would much prefer to do it with a semi-auto or full auto rifle.

        • If I were to participate in clearing the mall as a member of the militia, I would prefer a fistful of RPGs. I was trained with the mindset of “Massive Retaliation.”

    • Mark N,

      See my post above.

      Of course a citizen in that scenario is in a very dire situation. Nevertheless, an armed citizen’s odds of surviving are certainly better if the citizen has a full size handgun with 14+ rounds, two spare magazines, quick feet, and the skill to use that handgun.

      Unless the armed attackers catch me totally “flat footed”, out in the open, 40+ feet from cover/concealment, and they storm into the building right in front of me, I believe I stand a very good chance of surviving with a full size handgun and 40+ rounds of ammunition. Worst case, I would die anyway and I’ll probably be able to take at least one of them with me … and they will be focusing their attention on me rather than shooting other mall patrons trying to run out.

      I really do not see a down side to armed citizens.

  10. The chances of anything like what’s happening in Kenya happening here are about the same as some fools driving planes into the World Trade Center, our getting into a war in Iraq and a war Afghanistan, then our trying to get involved in one in Syria.

    NOT A CHANCE……………….uh, let me rethink that one.

  11. This kind of thing is what caused me to stop carrying a Glock 36 with a spare mag and switch back to my G19 with a spare mag after 9-11. I figure even with organized terrorists the extra shots up my survival chances.

  14. I wonder how long it will be before the prez vice prez or sec of state say that tougher gun laws in America could’ve prevented this attack…

  15. I recently downsized from a 5′ 1911 with two spare mags to an XDS-9 with a single spare. 13 rounds of 9mm isn’t going to take me very far against multiple rifle wielding attackers. On the other hand I suggests it will take me nearly as far as the 1911 would with the possible issue of accuracy at long range.

    What it comes down to at that point is their skill level. If it’s poor, even though they are willing to die in the assault dyeing might be all they get done. If they are moderately skilled with their weapons and basic tactics you’re almost certainly going to be killed if you don’t beat a hasty retreat, and perhaps even if you do.

    As an argument for a full sized handgun versus something more concealable this is not only a 1 in a trillion scenario but also an argument for hard (threat IV) armor and a rifle more so than a full size handgun.

    We arm for the threat we’re likely to face. For most of us most of the time (and we’re talking 99.99% in both cases) that is 1 or 2 criminals with low skill and motivation armed with knives or clubs, perhaps a handgun they aren’t skilled with. That’s more of what I have in mind when I put my gun on in the morning. If rifle wielding terrorist teams were a realistic threat (I suppose they are but absent it ever having happened I can only prepare daily for so much) I’d wear hard armor and tote a rifle around. If it ever does happen here it might be a boon for the open carriers.

    The simple answer here is that to a degree skill, planning and tactics trump equipment. A would be mass murderer tends to stand in the open and shoot indiscriminately, making him highly vulnerable to well placed return fire from a rested position which overcomes most of the drawbacks to a handgun. Given enough concealed carriers it seems likely that someone would be flanked or to the rear of the shooter and able to dispatch him neatly at very close ranges in which the handgun is actually a superior weapon to an AK-47 or other assault rifle.

    At my local mall on a busy day (the kind where a terrorist attack would be the most likely) there are at least 20 if not many more concealed carriers in the crowd. The return fire might actually exceed the volume of fire from a MSR.

    Besides, any such attack would always be planned for a gun free zone. Stay out of those whenever possible and your likelihood of encountering a mass shooter drops from 1 in a billon to 1 in a trillion.

  17. It is a wonder to me that they haven’t brought jihad to heartland malls, high school football games, churches, and so on. It would induce far more terror than flying airplanes into buildings. NYC and DC might as well be another country to us folks in flyover country. Lets hope this doesn’t give them any ideas.

    My plan….Hotel Alpha, and Allah help them if they are in my way.

  18. Somali may be a “failed” nation state, but it sure does a good job of exporting violence. I hope this isn’t a start of a new terrible trend… from piracy to mall attacks.

    • The Merchant Marines from the major countries including the U.S.A. need to start “manning up” more in dealing with those pirates. That would be a good use of drones by the U.S. Navy as well.

    • As in any other failed state, extremists find it to be an excellent base of operations. In this case, we’re talking about al-Shabaab, which is more or less the local affiliate of al-Qaeda.

      Hopefully, this attack will prompt full-scale invasion of Somalia and clean the viper’s nest out. They don’t have majority support there, but they do have most guns, so they run large parts of the country… but if e.g. Kenya and Ethiopia together decide to deal with this problem once and for all, they can steamroll the bastards. And, perhaps, the West could help with air support.

  19. Reports that US nationals among the attackers. Guess we’re going to have to pass disarmament here for the chillunz there.

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