“Two deadly shootings have been reported in two Jewish-related locations near Kansas City, jupdates.com reports. “The first shooting was reported at around 1:00p.m. at  the Jewish Community Center in Overland Park, Kansas. Overland Park. Police confirmed multiple shots were fired at the center, which is located at 5801 W 115th St. . . . A second shooting was reported at Village Shalom, which is an assisted living center at 5500 West 123rd St. Worried relatives of residents tell KCTV5 that Village Shalom has been placed on lockdown. The suspects are in custody and there have been two fatalities, one at each location.” UPDATE: According to kansascity.com, there are now three fatalities in the two shootings and police have arrested one unidentified male suspect (above) . . .

The gunfire at the west side of the Jewish Community Center came as hundreds of high school singers from across the metro area were expected to audition for the KC SuperStar contest and actors were rehearsing for a production of “To Kill a Mockingbird.”

“There were tons of kids because this was about to start at 1 o’clock,” said Ruth Bigus, the publicist for KC SuperStar.

More as it becomes available.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

158 COMMENTS

  1. My heart goes out to the victims of these shootings.

    But this is why Georgia’s new law will save lives.

    • Police took one man into custody at the Valley Park Elementary at 123rd and Nall. The man was heard yelling “heil Hitler” as he was taken into custody.

      A 41 Action News photographer on the scene spoke with Mark Brodky, a member at the JCC, who says another man pointed a gun at him and shot the windows out of his car, “I thought he was shooting an air rifle and all the sudden he shot at me.” Brodky also says he’s seen the alleged shooter before. “He’s a member of the club. But I don’t know his name.”

      • What? A man simply exercising his First Ammendment rights?

        We all know that NOBODY who yells Heil Hitler and tatts up with swastikas is anything other than a freedom-living American.

        Right??

        Smirk.

        • It was more stating how strange it is that the shooter, whom supposedly shouted “Heil Hitler” during his arrest, is said to be a member of the JCC.

        • Yeah, that was weird.

          Condolences to the families of the deceased; wishes for a speedy recovery to the injured.

        • You don’t have to be Jewish to join a JCC any more than you have to be Christian to join a YMCA. Two of the victims were Methodist Christians.

  4. He yelled “Hail Hitler” as they drug him off to the Hoosegow, so we have yet another murderous shooter from the left.

    • The fact that you feel the need to consider Hitler on the ‘left’ (maybe you’re thinking of Stalin?) as if it is meaningful to this story and the political spectrum of this country as a whole speaks to the insanity that has developed by those who need to see anyone not aligned with their political party as monsters.

        • Yes, it was called national socialism for a reason. That reason is because socialism was *extremely* popular in Europe at the time. It’s like how the full name of North Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. But the DPRK is no more a democracy or a republic than Nazi Germany was socialist. In fact, the political left were the *first* people that the Nazis put into concentration camps. The left has done nothing to try to make Nazis look like they’re on the political right-wing. Instead, people on the right have tried to paint Hitler as left to make it look as though no right-wing ideology can ever be taken too far. Now, Mussolini did get his start as a genuine socialist. He became frustrated with left-wing ideology and it’s effeminate intellectual ineffectiveness, and he created the right wing ideology of fascism instead.

          All you have to do is look at the Spanish Civil War, which was fought between Franco’s Fascists and the anarchist/communists of republican Spain. The Fascists were backed by Germany, Italy, and by big businessmen from the US and the UK, while the anarchists were backed by the Soviet Union and the International and Abraham Lincoln brigades of socialists and communists from around the world, like Hemingway and Orwell.

      • The Left has re-cast Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and fascism in general for generations as being on the “Right” for the sole purpose of balancing out the big leftist monsters of history that they cannot disown. For examples, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Castro.

        They conveniently redefined the national SOCIALIST Hitler et. al. just so they can counter in cocktail parties with “See?! YOUR side commits mass murder, too, you know! It’s not exclusively and inevitably the province of the Left. So there!” Well.

        Any rudimentary examination of these various ideologies reveals them differentiated more by brand and individual personalities, than by anything substantive. In the eternal struggle between the Individual and Authority, the Left owns and occupies all of the Authority real estate. Communists, Socialists, Fascists, and their various offshoots are rival leftist gangs fighting over the same stale rancid territory of illimitable dominion over the Individual. They elevate the State, the Collective, and/or vague notions of national unity above the Individual, who is himself reserved to serve only that so-called greater purpose. None of them emancipates, celebrates or approbates the Individual, and so none of them has any relationship to the “Right” whatsoever.

        • That was one of the best explanations of the relationship of these ideologies that I have ever read. Thank you.

        • You’re wrong in that your view of politics is clearly that it’s limited to one axis, the left-right axis. Have a look at this:
          http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/bothaxes.gif

          Not everything authoritarian is left. Not everything libertarian is right. Speaking as a green quadrant inhabitant here. Most of the TTAG posters would be purple quadrant. The mistake is in thinking that the red and blue quadrants are the same thing.

      • You friggin retard Hannibal, the party was National Socialist German Workers’ Party, or Nazi Party.

        Jackhole.

        • This just in, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a democracy because it has democracy in the name. And Saddam Hussein’s Republican Guard were all Bush voters!

      • On a less confrontational note (sheesh), Hannibal, There is no doubt, historically, that fascism and socialism and communism are all left-leaning and statist in their nature. The only real difference seems to be how much dissent they are willing to tolerate before going all-in with violent repression.

        Hitler, and the National Socialist party he co-opted, were most definitely leftist and fascist. The only substantive difference between Nazi fascism and Soviet fascism was the anti-Semitism genocide and the fact that Hitler got in the first blow in his bid for his brand of fascism to dominate the world.

        It may not be entirely accurate to equate American leftists directly with the violent fascists of the past, but where their political motives align the connection should NOT be ignored.

        • But Soviet fascism was in the thick of “”undesirable peasant” extermination long before the Nazis began their program. Stalin perfected his program in the South and West of the USSR long before WWII.

          In fact, the current Ukranian and Crimean unrest is a direct result of that Pogrom and the resettlement of ethnic Russians in formerly Ukranian lands vacated by the killings.

        • Not that I’m siding with Hannibal, but I think his point is that coloring the topic in “left v. right” adds nothing to the conversation. And even if it were applicable here (and it isn’t), the right, as we currently see it incarnated, spends just as much energy exercising its statist muscle. Different flavors – same loli-pop.

        • “Hitler, and the National Socialist party he co-opted, were most definitely leftist and fascist.”

          Fascism is not leftist. It is totalitarian. It is the right-wing version of totalitarianism, just as state communism is the left-wing version of totalitarianism. The political spectrum is a plane, not a line. Anything taken to the extreme of the authoritarian axis is going to be bad, no matter where it is on the left-right axis.

        • Some guy’s youtube video doesn’t change anything. People can put anything on Youtube. That guy only views politics as having a single-axis spectrum. Left-right, government – no government. “No gov” to “Total government”. Political positions are along a two-axis plane. You can have left-authoritarian, right-authoritarian, left-libertarian, and right-libertarian.

      • NDSAP – NAZI for short, National German Socialist Workers Party.

        Do your homework, amigo. Hitler was a dedicated Socialist.

        M

  7. Here’s to hoping that it will wake American Jew’s to the fact that the leftist pro gun control peg is no place to be hanging their proverbial Yarmulkes.

    However, I doubt it.

    Condolences to the victims’ families.

    • As a member of that tribe, and with a very large, pro-left family in multiple states, it will not change anything. My bro and I, out of an easy 85+ family members, are the only two that are pro-gun, pro-carry, vote right/conservative and belong to gun orgs (NRA, GOA). Nothing will change. Well, some areas might be able to afford off-duty cops and/or private security, so that might happen.

      • My most liberal cousin is also a strong 2A advocate and belongs to the Concealed Carry Association-he may have become disillusioned with Obama.
        My father was a liberal and thought gun control was insane.
        I am not a liberal by any stretch and I have a real problem with people aggressively identifying themselves as speaking for Jews on the gun control issue.No one has asked me my opinion.

    • We get Feinstein, Bloomberg, and Blumenthal. We also get Gura, Gottlieb, Kopel, and of course Farago. Essentially, our people are just like any other. They fall on both sides of the issues. Although it’s true that stereotypically, most American jews are dyed-in-the-wool liberals, you would be surprised how many are not.

  8. “He yelled “Hail Hitler” as they drug him off to the Hoosegow, so we have yet another murderous shooter from the left.”

    Umm, I’m pretty sure the modern liberal left has nothing to do with Adolf. Modern fascists, yes, Democrats…no.

    • You’re saying that the “Modern Left” isn’t fascist? ……… Mozilla’s Eich would beg to differ.

      • I’m not sure you know what the word “fascist” means… it seems like a lot of people use to to mean “people with power who don’t think like me.”

        • And I think you refuse to recognize what is in front of your eyes. Progressive Leftists are itching for, and making gains toward, a totalitarian control of the state and business to align with their beliefs. If you don’t recognize that as fascism, than enjoy your purple sky unicorn world..

        • When any ideology does literally nothing but fight over absolute control of the individual through the power of the state solely to suit their purposes, which is the to exclusive benefit to the State — as Fascism, Socialism, Communism, and the like invariably do (as a matter of verifiable historical fact no less) — then yes they in ARE exclusive to and inextricable from the LEFT.

          Get over it.

        • Hannibal, I’m not entirely sure you are making your position/objections clear here.

          Fascism can be a slippery thing to define, and in its worst incarnations can be seen in both far left and far right extremist groups. Nevertheless, Liberal fascism, or “soft tyranny” (Mark Levine) is almost exclusively an attribute of the Liberal/Progressive political outlook.

          Fascism, in its most basic form, can be defined as a political and/or social philosophy whose adherents consider their position so morally superior that they are justified to use any degree of coercion, force or violence to either obtain compliance or annihilate their opposition. Fascism cannot survive in a society with open debate nor can it tolerate dissent. Those who oppose their vision are evil and must be converted, neutralized, or destroyed.

          Except for far-right extremist nut cases, those do not sound like things normally espoused by American conservatives.

        • Hannibal: They really really really do not know what Fascism means.

          fas·cism [fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
          noun
          1. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
          2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
          3. ( initial capital letter ) a political movement that employs the principles and methods of fascism, especially the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.
          http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic

          This imagined “left fascism” has none of the nationalist elements you would see from actual fascism. They’re using “fascism” when they mean “totalitarianism”. And we are heading towards totalitarianism, but it is a kind of politically centrist totalitarianism that exists first for the benefit of the wealthy backers of both political parties. There are a lot of liberal identity politics involved (identity politics focus on labels and never on results), but there are also a lot of conservative business politics involved. For example, Obamacare, which instead of establishing a national health care system (the liberal option), forces people to go through private businesses to purchase their health care (the conservative option floated in the 90s by the Heritage Foundation and then used by Mitt Romney). Gun control is also a facet of centrist totalitarianism, look at how Ronald Reagan supported civilian disarmament in California and then after his presidency supported the AWB and the Brady Bill. On gun control I don’t see much difference between powerful Republicans like Reagan and Romney, and powerful Democrats like Obama and Feinstein.

        • Your same youtube video that you posted above is not a fact.

          Saying a thing is a fact does not make it a fact.

          You could call the tail of a sheep a “leg”, but that wouldn’t mean sheep have five legs.

          “Leftist fascism is not a myth.”

          Yes, it is, because fascism is by definition right-wing totalitarianism. Some guy’s youtube doesn’t change that. State communism is left-wing totalitarianism. Your problem, and the problem of the guy making youtube videos, is that you think the political spectrum *only* has a left-right axis. It does not. Thinking that it does is precisely how right-libertarians get fooled by right-authoritarians.

          Are you seriously going to tell me that people like Francisco Franco and Augusto Pinochet are left-wing?

  9. PGT – Despite your using “umm” to declare your intellectual superiority, the fact is that Fascism is hard to discern from progressivism. Take away the obvious, what did German Fascism do as far as the assertion of government authority that the modern progressive left would not like to do?

    I am not saying Democrat=Hitler, what I am saying is that the policies and methodologies are a great deal more parallel than your garden variety Democrat realizes. ESPECIALLY on gun control, property rights and the participation of the government in economic life.

    • Definitive work on this subject: “Liberal Fascism” by Jonah Goldberg.

      The only essential difference between historical fascism we are familiar with and modern Liberalism is the belief in the propriety of using unlimited force to persuade non-Liberals to either agree with you or at least acquiesce to your world-view. What Goldberg refers to as “Fascism with a smily face.”

      A good and informative read – I HIGHLY recommend it.

      • So the only (essential!) difference is the one that most people think of when they think of fascism. Well, I call you a communist because you like red (ignoring the difference of believing in state-held property and economy).

        • Care to point out any right-wing mass shooters of late?

          Now can anyone name any from the left?

        • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

          Adkisson, a former private in the United States Army from 1974 to 1977, said that he was motivated by hatred of Democrats, liberals, African Americans and homosexuals.[2][9][10] According to an affidavit by one of the officers who interviewed Adkisson on July 27, 2008:[3]

          During the interview Adkisson stated that he had targeted the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country’s hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets. Adkisson made statements that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them into office. Adkisson stated that he had held these beliefs for about the last ten years.

      • Hannibal – Over the 20th century, the key difference between socialism and communism is patience, or the lack thereof. Mao, Stalin and Hitler were in a hurry and were willing to eliminate whoever they felt were in the way. Atlee, Nixon and Obama are willing to be patient and obviously far more restrained in how much blood they are willing to shed on the road to utopia.

        The similarities are striking once you dial out the barbaric implementation. “Liberal Fascism” is indeed an eye-opening book.

      • Jonah Goldberg is an idiot who had no idea what he was talking about but knew he could make a lot of money selling books to people similarly ignorant.

        • “We are of the right and of order. We shall sweep away Jews, Bolsheviks, and liberal democracies as one sweeps away flies.” -Heinrich Himmler

          Albert Speer, the Third Reich’s last Armaments Minister, in INSIDE THE THIRD REICH makes clear that he had great difficulty controlling fiefdoms and bailiwicks of various private firms well into 1944, when the war was already going to pieces. He also notes the privatization of all the formerly state-owned arsenals, even the huge ones at Suhl, Spandau, and Amberg.

          William L. Shirer in THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH noted that there was little or no socialism in “National Socialism”.

          It has become fashionable as the political “right” has been hijacked by extremist Christians to put forth an ideology that the political right, both authoritarian and libertarian, is perfect and infallible. No right wing movement could ever be bloodthirsty or tyrannical, and if a right wing movement was tyrannical, then it must have been a left wing movement, because tyranny is synonymous with the left.

          This is a dangerous position to have, especially for right-libertarians, because it means you’ll back a right-authoritarian all the way up until he stabs you in the back on the Night of Long Knives.

        • You have a fundamental and willful, categorical misunderstanding of the Libertarian movement altogether. The Libertarian movement believes only in restricting the power of the government to protecting the unalienable rights of the people. So, no, Libertarians absolutely would not back any authoritarian like that. Ever.

          http://youtu.be/ODJfwa9XKZQ

    • Can you fill us in on the local laws on CCW in that town / building? Is it a “gun free zone”?

    • I was just a few miles away from this at a park when this happened. That’ll rattle you.

  12. Why aren’t there all of these prayers for the victims when this happens daily in Chicago? All there are then are racist jokes.

  13. I’m sure the antis will blame the new state preemption law that makes overland park stop creating bad local laws. I think I drive by Village Shalom when I head to the Russian store. It’s too bad we have idiots who wish to do evil to others, most likely because they were Jewish.

        • Bizarre, like when every black person is called “Trayvon” or “Obama” or “nigger” on TTAG? You’re right, that’s my imagination.

        • Except not only does that not happen, but I can guaran-damn-tee you that you won’t ever be able to point out any example of when it did.

          Go ahead and search if you like. The site’s search engine is enhanced by Google, after all. But I’m not holding my breath. You won’t find such garbage here because it simply isn’t here at all — and you know it.

          COMMENT MODERATED

      • Daz, the polite way to show you aren’t a troll is to provide a link to the thread where such assertions were made.

        • Don’t expect anything of the sort. He knows for a fact there isn’t any such garbage here and he also knows for a fact that he won’t find it.

          If anything, it’ll be potato-quality, badly Photoshopped hack-jobs posted to a common image uploader.

  14. I can’t help wondering what sort of total loser a person must be to feel the need to blame some particular ethnic or religious group for their own failures in life.

    No one should ever be forced to be helpless in the face of such evil.

      • Aside from that being patently false, at least Obama is the current President. Obama himself, however, has a very nasty and tired habit of blaming everything on Bush. Again, still, as they say.

      • In addition to what Jonathan here said, Ovomit did as a matter of undeniable fact also continue absolutely all of the bad habits of all his predecessors — things that he did pinky-promise us that he wouldn’t do.

        Lo and behold, here we are 8 years later with a President who is exactly the same as literally everybody else who ever came before him: pompous, petulant, arrogant, ignorant, irresponsible, inept, negligent, and supremely naive.

        And the beat goes on.

      • Unless you consider Liberals or the individual known as Obama to be ethnic or religious groups (don’t get me started on the people who think Obama is the Messiah), your comment does not work. People do not have a choice when they are born into ethnic groups and often have little choice as to the religion they are indoctrinated in. That is a far cry from the political philosophy that individuals choose to promote or a single individual who can be seen to work for historically failed political philosophies and against the concepts in The Constitution of the United States of America.

        Anyone can be challenged for their reasoning and action in groups they choose to join and support. No one can be faulted for the family/group they are born into. One is a choice, the other is a random act of fate.

        Judge a person by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. (Or the ethnic group they are born into.)

  19. Gun Free Zone accordion to the crowd sourced app I use to find out these things. One is an assisted living center.

  20. A member of the Center/club knows the shooter. He said the shooter was a member of the club also.

    This is bad. I hope it is not a “gun free zone” but hopefully Americans will awaken soon enough, that having a gun is a deterrent to crime or at least continuation of crime. Whether it is the mentally unsound, criminals, or Muslim jihadists, arms are needed.

  21. Heartfelt sympathy to these families. I’m hope they have the person/persons responsible in custody and justice will be served.

  22. Thoughts and prayers with the victims and their families. Just goes to show you evil comes in all kinds of flavors.

  23. I’m at work, so I’m not getting the greatest news on this….moreso than usual, I mean. There’s rumblings of this being a skinhead-related attack. Is there anything to that? Or is that just internets gonna internet type info?

  25. I just read an update: two of the victims were members of a Methodist Church shot in the parking lot. Duh, sorry I forgot the news site I read that at. I think it’s in the above link.

  26. Thanks for posting the picture. Heard on TV it was a white male with a beard and was afraid I’d done something stupid! Ah, relief!

  27. Dang, I was at my son’s soccer game not 2 miles from there when that happened. Scary stuff, I hope he rots in hell.

  28. In the 80s when I worked as a security officer one of my assignments was to protect, along with other officers, a jewish temple that had been vandalised and recieved threats.

    I don’t have the background or education to explain it, but a lot of the members of the temple appeared to be fearfull of the uniformed staff there to protect them. Maybe generations of persocution had given the jewish community a natural dislike of armed, uniformed men. At any rate there was evident fear and distrust of us.

    The local pd on the other hand were very happy to have the extra manpower on hand. During the event 1 officer was there at all times and patrol units came thru pretty regular.

    This was the same town where at a different site I got shot at for what, so far, has been the last time in my life. Hope it stays that way.

  29. Nazis and Communists (and Socialists too, who are, after all, Commies who have not yet picked up their AK-47s) are pretty much identical except for one key characteristic.

    They are both collectivist totalitarians who seek to subjugate individuals for some sort of Utopian “greater good” and are both perfectly willing to exterminate those they deem “undesirable.”

    Here is that one key difference – how Nazis and Communists define “undesirables.”

    For Nazis, if you were a member of the officially designated “inferior groups,” then it didn’t matter how much you politically agreed with them. You could be totally on board with every single “Reich, Volk, Deutschland” social program, nationalizing private businesses, giving children totally to the state for indoctrination, ever more governmental control, but if you were Jewish, the Nazis would kill you.

    For Communists, you could be the most ethnically pure Russian, or most ethnically pure Cambodia, or Cuban or North Korean, but if you whistled a counter-revolutionary song, or owned too much private property, or publically said that Dear Leader might have a screw or two loose, or wore glasses so you could read, showing that you would not be content to become a rural agrarian in the new reality in Year Zero, then the Commies would happily kill you.

    About the only real difference between Nazis and Communists is how they define undesirables. In behavior, in methodology, in basic underlying goals, they are pretty much identical. One kills you because of your race or ethnicity, the other kills you because you are from the wrong social or economic class. They both seek to usher in “Utopias” based on collective identity and thus must totally subjugate any sort of individual identity.

  30. Extremism of any form leads to violence. Labels should only be applied by those labeled, and even then not everyone fits. I don’t care who you wed or bed, I will not judge another by their color or faith, but we may judge by action and this man did evil in our world. Not town, not state, not nation, our world. Peace to those left behind.

  31. The POINT of this story is not to debate if Nazis were left, or right. Who cares?

    The POINT is that a guy screaming “Heil Hitler” deliverately killed Jews.

    This is not a left, right, gay, straight, liberal, conservative issue.

    This is ANTI-SEMITISM.

    Get a grip people.

    • Respectfully, Paul, I think anti semitism is part and parcel with leftist ideology. This is not to say that all leftists are anti-semites, but you are a lot more likely to see anti-semitic abuse flowing from the left.

      At the core of a leftist is envy – carping about what somebody else has. Our Jewish neighbors for as long as there has been Jews have been the targets of envy and hatred.

      That said, if this is what the shooter said, he may have just been being an asshole.

    • No Paul; this is completely relevant to this discussion. What is at the heart of Anti-Semitism? What is at the heart of all attacks on a designated “sub-human” group. It is Envy, jealously, a sense of inferiority, self-hatred, victimhood, a feeling of powerlessness. All attributes of the left. By placing a
      group as a “:scape goat”, it makes these self-hating people feel better about themselves.

      It is also why this cult of victimhood is so prone to violent homicidal individual acts, like this murderer; as well as ample examples of mass murder and genocide by societies based on this belief system. . It is from an absolute sense of worthlessness and a homicidal rage at themselves because of that helplessness; which they then act out, (or a case of transference) onto the nearest available helpless population.

      The cult of the left is one based on a very unhealthy, self-destructive and ultimately homicidal world view. Unless people are willing to acknowledge this basic truth; mass murder will continue, on an individual as well as societal level.

  32. Daz…the Only time I’ve EVER seen anyone ON TTAG spell out n###er is YOU. Thirty shot( so far ) in Chicago this weekend. I also mourn for the victims. From an evil old white man married to a beautiful blackwoman. With 2 large caramel colored sons. You are a real POS TROLL Daz.

  33. Awww… A 70 year old homicidal racist. How precious. See, you’re never too old to get your 15 minutes of fame.

  34. This one hit close to home for me; I have several friends and acquaintances in the KC Jewish community who live in the area, including the parents and sister of one of my closest friends from college. Fortunately, none of them were involved or endangered in today’s incident.

    As for the shooter: There’s only one sure cure for fascism, and it’s typically administered with a noose or a bullet. Good riddance to the SOB.

  35. Churchill was a badass in the Boer War. Real combat veteran. Unlike most of OUR recent leaders.

    • Churchill was a nationalist and not a man of morals. As Secretary of the Navy during WW1, he ordered his people not to pass word onto the Americans and the Lusitania that a German sub was stalking the US passenger ship. The German sub sunk the ship killing many Americans and leading to the US entering the war against the Germans.

      • Source?

        And are you arguing that he was obligated to let us know of British intelligence? The U.S. at the time was following a policy of neutrality. We were not an ally of the British.

        • Source? Does everything commented upon need to have a source included? The historical information is readily available and widely known.

          Officially, the US was neutral yet America was shipping arms to Britain. The ship may in fact have had arms in its hold for Britain.

          Morally, Churchill was obligated to warn of a danger to civilians that he was aware of whether there was a legal alliance or not unless you’re into the “moral-relevance” argument that advocates ethics are subjective.

          • It is not widely known that Churchill knew in advance, as far as I know.

            I think your idea of what was morally required in this situation is a little too chauvinist.

            In any case, it was so generally known at the time that there was a danger of military action against civilian vessels to and from Europe that the U.S. warned its own citizens against such travel.

        • “I think your idea of what was morally required in this situation is a little too chauvinist.”

          Chauvinistic? Really? That is an interesting choice of words. Ok, fine. You stick with the moral-relevance view and I’ll stick with his decision not to warn the ship a moral failing. Many people, with an interest in history, are aware of Churchill not passing on the warning. Yes, the USG was warning its citizens about the dangers as did the Germans declaring the seas around GB a war zone.

          • Aaron – I used the word “chauvinist” in its original sense, which was appropriate here, and I applied it to your position, not to you. I think you’re taking this disagreement personally when there’s no need to. And I have not in any way taken a position that is morally relativist (I assume you meant relativist rather than relevant). I have merely disagreed with the position you took. In any case, I’ll leave off. Thanks for raising the issue, though. I had not previously heard that particular criticism against Churchill.

  38. I thought I recognized his first and middle names-Frasier Glenn-his real last name is Miller,not Cross as has been reported.He has been a rabid Jew hater for decades.I believe he was forced to retire from the Army in 1979.He had his own White supremacist group in North Carolina.
    .

  39. regarding Frazier Glenn Cross, from wiki:
    “During his time as leader of the WPP, he unsuccessfully sought both the Democratic Party’s 1984 nomination for Governor of North Carolina,[5] and the 1986 Republican Party’s nomination for a seat in the United States Senate”.[6]

  42. Was expecting(unfortunately) that reply, so you’ve read his mind, tried and convicted him. Who needs stinking trials?

  43. I am sure the fact that he was screaming, “Heil Hitler” gives us no indication as to motive, right? The day before Passover began?? A former Grand Dragon of the KKK? Screaming antisemitic statements from the police car??

    Nah, I am sure he had no such motives.

  44. http://www.politicalcompass.org/

    Apparently people here need to educate themselves that there is not just a “left” and a “right”, there is also “authoritarian” and “libertarian”. You can have left-authoritarian, left-libertarian, right-authoritarian, and right-libertarian. Most of the people posting here are right-libertarian. I’d be left-libertarian. Stalin was left-authoritarian. Mussolini was right-authoritarian. The Nazis are difficult to place, they’re more right-authoritarian than anything else, but they were also largely completely insane and irrational. If you look at their early days before they went off the rails, they were decidedly right-authoritarian, but using left-wing language (heavily peppered with nationalism) to get the working class behind them.

    Yes, they called themselves national socialists. Yes, they said they were the German Worker’s Party. North Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Does that make it democratic, or a republic? Calling yourself by a given name doesn’t make you that thing. Declaring yourself the Emperor of Iowa wouldn’t make you the Emperor of Iowa. Socialism in Europe has been extremely popular, especially with the blue collar working class, for over a hundred years. That’s why both the left-authoritarians and the right-authoritarians used “socialism” in their party and country names. Much like how the popularity of democracy leads to groups and countries calling themselves democratic when they are not.

    Nationalism and racism tends to be an aspect of right-authoritarianism and fascism. That doesn’t mean that right-libertarians are bad! It doesn’t make you guilty by association! A right-libertarian and a right-authoritarian are two completely different things. What we need to watch out for is that the left and right authoritarians are the ones in power now, with the Democratic and Republican parties forming the left and right wings of a single Authoritarian Party, and that’s a group that wants to disarm and enslave us all.

      • You can post the same inaccurate youtube video as much as you want. You can make a video and post it to youtube claiming the moon landing was a hoax, or that the government is controlled by aliens. This won’t make these things true. Heinrich Himmler said “We are of the right and of order. We shall sweep away Jews, Bolsheviks, and liberal democracies as one sweeps away flies.” There was no actual socialism in “National Socialism” just as there is no Democracy in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. You can post as many uninformed youtube videos as you like, or the same one again and again, and it won’t change reality. It will only make people disregard your posts and your video as uninformed noise. Jonah Goldberg can write as many books as he wants to, claiming that Nazis were “liberals”, and the only thing it effects in reality is the people who give him money by buying those books.

        The shooter in this case was an avowed fan and supporter of Ron Paul. He said in numerous interviews that Ron Paul was the only politician he likes. Does that mean Ron Paul is a Nazi, and by your definition of Nazis, a leftist? Of course not.

  45. After 9/11, with my own kids at the JCC – I used to worry about the possibility of targeting. Now it has happened, and my prayers are with the victims and their families.

    Naturally, Yahoo News, and other left wing “news” outlets are predictably calling for “Stricter Gun Laws”. They are apparently allowing comments they agree with to be posted, while comments which disagree with their views, never see the light of day.

    As the Administration has turned its back on Israel, and signaled weakness world-wide, it directly shares responsibility for these anti-semitic hate crimes. Weakness invites aggression, as does intentionally turning ones back on ones allies.

    What baffles me, is the outcry for civilian disarmament from many in the Jewish community here in the US.

    Civilian disarmament – a play right out of Hitlers personal playbook – contributed to, and encouraged the persecution, and decimation of German Jews, and ultimately to the persecution and decimation of Jewish populations wherever the NAZIs held sway.

    Who – but a facsist (left or right) would presume to deliberately deprive fellow citizens of their God given right to self defense? And, why oh why are so many American Jews buying in?

    • “Weakness invites aggression”

      +1

      If more people understood this, gun control advocates would loose half their platform.

    • Actually the civilians in Germany were all disarmed as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. After they tried to conquer Europe in WW1 we weren’t going to let them stay armed. The Nazis rolled back the post-WW1 gun controls, but only for “loyal” Germans. So that’s what you have to watch out for, people who only want gun ownership rights for a specific group of politically correct individuals, and not for anyone of an undesirable political affiliation or racial group.

      • That’s right. The German government rolled back gun control laws for everybody except Jews, Gypsies, and the handful of other minorities that they wanted to scape-goat or otherwise have a much easier time of rounding up and eliminating.

    • Hmmm….let’s see…the man was a known rabid Anti-Semite, had been on the radar screen of the Feds, for years, screamed Heil Hitler and had a big old grin on his face as they hauled him away and was screaming anti-Semitic statements from the police car. It’s all on video.

      I’m having a hard time understanding why anyone with even a modest IQ would find this to be at all a matter of doubt.

      Do you get your KKK robes dry cleaned, or do you wash them at home, PG?

      Just wondering.

  48. Anti-Semitism runs long and deep in Europe and cultures derived from European cultures and it has nothing to do with being “liberal” or “left.” The pogroms during the Middle Ages and the rabid Anti-Semitism of the Nazi Party were not because they were “liberal” but profoundly angry and bitter anti-Semites. They played on the anti-Semitism latent in German culture and made it the rallying point for the Nazi movement and goal of racial purity.

  49. Paul, I’m not going to pick apart your opinions, just remember not everything you see and hear on TV is true. As a 2nd Amendment supporter you should appreciate that.

    • Oh, so the video I saw of the guy screaming Heil Hitler, and then yelling anti-semitic epitaphs from inside the cop car were all staged? Doctored up? A conspiracy theory? He was really not a rabid anti-Semite?

      Where’s your proof to refute the hard evidence of the video?

      Do tell.

  50. Reading some of your other posts I can see this will go nowhere productive. You’re right, you convinced me, that’s all the evidence anyone should need, no wonder our prisons are so full, who needs facts when we have digital sound bytes?

    • PG, you’ve made absolutely no good points. You have offered absolutely no evidence to refute the video evidence of the man himself screaming Heil Hitler. You’ve offered no evidence to contradict his very long record of being an ant-semite KKK loon.

      So, what’s your point?

      You have any proof to contradict any of the above?

      Please post it.

  51. Wow, who would’ve guessed such a politically incorrect topic as truth and firearms would be a quagmire of political correctness?

    • “A quagmire of political correctness?”

      Do tell.

      Last I checked, hunting down people at a Jewish Community Center and a Jewish retirement home, screaming Heil Hitler and hurling anti-semitic statements from the police car you are sitting in is not exactly politically correct behavior.

  54. Paul, what’s 0 times 0? When you come up with something of value you’ll get same response. Until then I’m not wasting my calories with you.

  56. Yawn….I’m not defending him at all, just pointing out that your television based opinions are highly questionable.

    • Really? OK, explain it to me then.

      What do you think he meant when he yelled “Heil Hitler” after killing people at the community center?

      And if you do not believe what we all can see from the video taken that day, what do you think actually happened?

      Enlighten us.

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