beretta-cx4-2

TTAG commentator int19h writes:

Some Canadian gun laws are so stupid that they serve as a perfect illustration that most anti-gun laws are written by clueless people and don’t actually do much. Consider their magazine restrictions, for example . . .

It’s 10 rounds for handguns, and 5 rounds for rifles – except that restriction is on magazines themselves, not guns they’re inserted in, and not on how you use the magazine (the crime is “possession of a magazine capable of holding N rounds”, not “loading a magazine with N rounds” or “inserting the magazine with N rounds into gun X”).

So a Beretta CX4 carbine can be loaded with a Beretta PX4 pistol magazine with 10 rounds, and it’s not a problem. All that matters is what gun the magazine was designed for, which is a ridiculous idea for obvious reasons. So one company sells an AR-15 “pistol” (i.e. sans stock), and they make 10-round AR magazines that are specifically stamped as being for that pistol. Naturally, they fit any rifle that accepts AR mags just as well, including “unrestricted” ones like Robinson XCR or Kel-Tec SU-16. And it’s all perfectly legal.

But wait, it gets even better. What about magazines that can fit different calibers, with varying number of rounds depending on the caliber? For example, some .40 S&W mags can hold and reliably feed 9mm cartridges, and obviously they will fit more of them, so a legal .40 S&W 10-rounder can fir 12 rounds of 9mm.

Again, because it’s the mags themselves that are restricted, not what you do with them, this is perfectly legal so long as magazine is “originally designed” for .40 S&W – which in practice usually just means is stamped with the appropriate marking.

All well and good, so what did the smart guys do? They import 5-round AR magazines for .50 Beowulf, stamped as such, so it’s all legit. And it just so happens that those mags will also feed 5.56 pretty reliably (because the only difference is in the feed lips, and it’s small enough that it doesn’t matter), and you can load around 15 rounds per magazine into it. And should someone make a “pistol” chambere d in .50 Beowulf, then 10-round mags “designed” for it would also be legal, and would conveniently accommodate 30 rounds of 5.56.

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69 COMMENTS

    • For the most part that is how it works in CA. If you have a “10 round” mag that happens to work for a different cartridge also, you can load of it with the other cartridge just fine. Now, it might be illegal to put it in your “fixed magazine” AR…the argument of no, it’s a 50 Beowulf magazine, not a 5.56 mag is hard to make when it’s a “fixed” part of a 5.56 rifle. If consult a lawyer on that one, but simply owning it would not be illegal. In fact possession is not illegal at all in CA, just selling, importing , manufacturing and buying.

  3. It doesn’t bother me too much, Canada’s to dam cold!
    If I want to be bothered by some really crappy gun laws, I’ll take a trip south, not north, to komifornia, to visit some relatives.
    Wait a minute! No I wont either, Ill have them come up here.

    • Kanuckistan gunlaws are a real pain if you’re driving/riding/hiking/paddling to Alaska, camping with the Grizzlies (and possibly some of the canucks) along the way. Considering they are occupying one of the world’s last great hunting and outdoor areas, they really ought to stop slapshooting hockey pucks into eachoters heads and wake the heck up.

      • Thanks for telling it like it is.

        The unfortunate thing here in Canada, to put it in your terms, is we’re like 90% “blue states” and our crazy laws are still remnant of a very left-wing Liberal government that ruled most of the time from the late 1960s to early 2000s.

        They started with just “disarmament for the heck of it” in the 1970s, which gave way to irrational fear after the 1989 Ecole Polytechnique massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre) that led to the crazy magazine restrictions (because if those mag restrictions were in place before 1989 Marc Lepine would have certainly thought twice about using illegal mags in his shooting spree, and only 5 would have died instead of 14).

  4. You should see the gun laws for Australia. You need a firearms permit just to own a paintball gun, and spud guns are completely illegal. No if, ands, or buts about it.

  5. Just one quick note- that’s only for semi-autos, and also only for centerfire. Rimfire magazines not designed for pistols can have unlimited capacities (rimfire mags for pistols are only allowed 10 rounds). Centerfire manually operated rifles and shotguns can have unlimited capacity magazines, too- whether removable or fixed. Of course, that’s only if the magazines cannot be fit to a semi-auto firearm. So, if you want a mag tube extension on your pump action, or a trench mag for your Mauser, go right ahead. Oh, and belt-fed firearms where the firearm was designed before 1945 have unlimited capacity as well (provided you use a belt that is authentic and not a reproduction or some such rule which to be honest is even more confusing than the rest).

    In some ways I’m glad- imagine just how bad a gun law could be if it was written by someone who hated civilian gun owners but also knew something about guns.

    Canada is your reminder, Americans that things can both get bad and also improve (LGR scrapped, C-42 passed). On the whole, it’s best to not let them get bad in the first place.

    • It depends. If you mean the actual regulations as they currently stand, they’re probably less bad than many people think. Oh well, at least it’s not New Jersey.

      If you mean the ability for a new government to come in and add as many restrictive rules and bans as they feel like without anyone being able to challenge them- it’s so much worse.

    • Nah, that’s about as bad as I thought it was. Add in the increased crime and the resulting cover-ups and you’ve got a real mess.

    • Thing is, you’d then also have to make a dedicated magazine, “designed” for that pistol.

      The reason why this trick works with LAR-15 pistols and their magazines is because Rock River Arms makes (and imports) both. Similarly, Alberta Tactical makes such mags for their AT-15 pistol.

    • I first read this as “Canadian gun laws repealed”, and did a double-take. That would be something.

      Heck, if they really got rid of them all, it might be worth a move.

      • Vancouver is a really nice place to live, and not really cold (well, unless you think that 100 F is proper summer temperature, which for some mysterious reason is the case for many people from the southern states). Their property prices are insane for what it is, though.

    • Yeah, their shotgun rules are pretty lax compared to ours, at least as far as pump/break actions are concerned. That and they can import a lot of the Chinese, Russian and other guns that Reagan, Bush, Clinton and company executive ordered off the table, like the semi-auto QBZ Chinese bullpups, including a 12GA variant.

      Nonetheless, I’ll take our laws in Free America (aka, TX, AZ, WY, MN, VT, and so on) and lobby for the bill proposed to strip the GCA of the “sporting purposes” language to allow in more rifle and shotgun imports and do away with this “import it as a pistol and leave it to the customer to figure out how to legally make it a rifle” business.

  9. But atleast canada is much safer than the tyrannical NRA-land america.

    And canada has had no mass killings despite their gun laws and no NRA terrorists.

    Here is what the NRA has done to us in the past several years span.

    2009. NRA established in response to hurt egos of Wall Street and hedge fund sponsors that had to be bailed out to the tune of trillions of dollars by the U.S. government (you and I).

    2009.NRA member shoots out windows of Congressional offices that voted for Health Care law.

    2010. NRA terrorist Sarah Palin puts “targets” for certain Congressman on website.

    2010. Gabby Giffords shot by an NRA affiliated terrorist nut. Innocent child and others die.

    2012. 20 innocent children are slaughtered in Newtown by NRA affiliated terrorist, along with their teachers by nut from NRA family. Instead of reticence or sorrow, the NRA steps up propaganda and lobbying.

    2015. Confederate/Nazi nut and NRA member kills 9 in Church.

    2015. Recent NRA and TTAG terrorist nut kills 2 innocent souls and severely wounds others.

    The NRA and the “law abiding gun community” watered down the reporting part of the federal law that would have required mandatory reporting of people with health problems. They made it so states could report it IF THEY WANTED but completely removed the mandatory part of the language. So basically as long as your state doesn’t want to report then there will be nothing in the federal databases and mentally ill people will be free to buy guns anywhere.

    On and on it goes, where it stops nobody knows! Flimsy gun ownership laws continue to fail movie and church goers alike. But what the NRA, TTAG and all those gun owners with a twisted interpretation of the second amendment want you to believe is it’s not the guns killing people, it’s people killing people. Therefore, any additional legislation won’t prevent this kind of tragedy. In fact, it should be even easier to buy guns because it’s not the guns killing people anyway, so why have any law at all? Why that’s as silly as having laws to prevent people from buying steak knives – you can kill with a steak knife, right? Staying with that bizarre logic, it follows that what we must need is people laws to put away all the crazy people and non “law-abiding citizens” who just might use a gun to kill. Because if you can buy a gun as easily as a pack of cigarettes, the only way to keep somebody from getting one is to lock them away. Now the problem of course is what to do about law-abiding citizens who are on the verge of becoming non law-abiding killers, Should the police, FBI, and ATF be looking for people about to go crazy and lock them away so they can’t get a gun and kill with it? Oops, can’t do that. Everyone will complain about profiling. No, clearly the answer must be to ensure every single person is armed so at the very moment before a crazy person draws a weapon to kill, somebody will be on hand to shoot them dead. Brilliant!

    • “But atleast canada is much…”

      (snip moronic prattle)

      Is it really to much to ask the trolls to at least be original?

      OB Peeve: The second-rate fvckwit wankers that try to pass themselves off as trolls.

    • 100% agree with you. its so bad in the USA right now that thousands of people risk their lives, and the lives of their families trying to escape the US everyday!

    • I agree that the NRA is evil and we sensible and reasonable gun laws created by a responsible People’s Socialist Government. We really need to dismantle the NRA and take all these gun owners to special re-education centers for their own safety. As it becomes apparent that more of the population appears that they do not love the Dear Leader and his Noble Experiment Progressive policies and laws, those malcontents will be sent to the new correctional centers as well. With so many inmates, selection will of course be a sensible measure and excessive population will be administratively managed.

    • “2010. NRA terrorist Sarah Palin puts “targets” for certain Congressman on website.”

      aaaand, I’m out. You might as well have said she flew in a UFO for as accurate as that statement is

      • Everybody knows Sarah lasers them and paints them as a target for the NRA flying the UFO loaded with smart bombs.

    • And Mr Jackbooted Fascist thug I`m sure you would all for using violence to enforce gun bans. And you would not call it gun violence. Are you aware that Europe that has more restrictive gun laws still have numerous mass shootings? Starting with the Charlie Hebdo mass shooting.

    • we’ve had plenty of mass murders. Last year the son of a police officer stabbed 5 people to death at a house party. our criminals use illegal firearms all the time to conduct their business. our gun control laws have had little, if any, effect on the crime rate… but civilians can’t defend themselves.

  10. I’ll admit the our Canadian firearm laws are all backwards. Though we do have much better laws then Britain and most of the world. (except when it comes to suppressors)

    I wish we had a second ammentment to protect our gun rights. We do not so we have to deal with what we have. We have organizations that fight for our firearm rights and we’re one of the few first world countries who have actually had their government remove restrictions on firearms. As long as we keep our conservative party (err right wing?? I think its called?) as a majority we may even see our whole Firearms Act repealed.

      • The laws that were brought in most likely would have been voted in by almost every party. At least the conservatives trust their people enough to own firearms. We don’t seem to have much choice. Its vote conservative or loose gun rights lol. Libertarian Party isn’t against guns but they’ll never get enough votes. If you vote for libertarian then you risk splitting the vote and having the liberals win. Ahh what a system.

        • You guys (well, and everyone else who still uses archaic FPTP, like e.g. US) really need MMP or other proportional system. What I really don’t understand is how it was actually put up to referendum in some provinces (I’m aware of British Columbia doing that when I was still living there back in 2009), and failed. Why wouldn’t you vote for a system that actually makes third parties that more accurately represent your views viable?

        • If Canada didn’t have FPTP there would NEVER be a Conservative government. Canada is just lucky that the left is divided among the Left, the Loony Left and the Froggy Left.

          • >> If Canada didn’t have FPTP there would NEVER be a Conservative government.

            Getting an election result that you personally want is no excuse for a crappy electoral system. If you follow that line of thinking, it leads towards the outright approval of dictatorship by “your” guys, since the alternative would be losing elections. As far as I’m concerned, if an elected government doesn’t represent the actual preferences of the electorate, it doesn’t really have a legitimate mandate to rule (note though that this is distinct from checks & balances to ensure that even a legitimate representative government doesn’t result in a tyranny of the majority, which is also something that Canada needs to fix – their Constitution offers too many loopholes).

  11. The other similar caliber to keep in mind is .458 SOCOM. That one is actually designed to use unmodified 5.56 mags, so where (and/or when) the law is similar to what they have in Canada today, those would provide the necessary workaround.

    By the way, so far as I know, this magazine trick is not just limited to Canada, but is also applicable to some US states with mag size restrictions. Definitely not all of them, as I’ve seen horror stories about people trying to order those and companies refusing to ship them “because you can put 15 rounds in it”. Even those with incompatible followers, “because you can change the follower”. But I don’t know if it’s just the sellers playing it safe, or there’s any actual precedent. If there is, I haven’t heard of it, so if you want to play it safe, don’t do it (or at the very least don’t load 5.56 into it… or they might decide that you have “redesigned or remanufactured” the magazine by doing so, analogous to what ATF decreed wrt shouldering SB-15). In that sense Canada is better off because this whole arrangement is justified by a court decision, and that decision is very unambiguous about how it works.

    And then, obviously, you also have really retarded states like NY which also limit the number of rounds you can actually put in it, so it’s moot anyway. Unless you, ahem, collect them; you know, just in case for fun (though it might still behoove you to obtain an upper in the appropriate caliber then, to have a “legitimate” platform to use them in).

    IANAL, none of this is legal advice, use at your own risk, consult the lawyer in your jurisdiction etc.

    • I actually emailed the idea to Magpul to market 10 Rd mags specifically marked 458 SOCOM. Never heard back. Just thought it was a good idea.

      • This was my first thought while reading about the .50 Beowolf; .458 SOCOM is MEANT to use identical magazines… so 10 round .458 SOCOM (STANAG) pistol magazines should probably be the only thing sold in Canada for AR-15 platforms, except for unusual calibers.

  12. Another frustration about Canadian Gunlaws: The 5.56 IWI Tavor = Non-restricted and can be used anywhere in the bush etc where it is legal to discharge a firearm. The 5.56 AR-15 or ANY variant….Restricted and can only be used on CFO approved ranges. They are also subject to authorizations to transport.

    • And AK in all variations is “prohibited” (including Saiga in its original hunting configuration even! but Valmets are specifically excluded for some reason).

      Really, this whole idea with a list of specific restricted/prohibited firearms is its own very special idiocy. Feinstein actually tried to sneak that into US in her last AWB proposal.

      • The Valmet is excluded because when the bill was passed the gov’t had recently purchased a number of them to give to various first nations tribes, and they didn’t want the bad press of handing out something only to ban it shortly thereafter.

  13. How ’bout this… who really cares how many rounds you have in your magazine as long as you’re not shooting innocent people with those rounds.

    Oh yes… the government.

    So this isn’t about safety at all is it, it’s just about control.

  14. But Canada does’nt need your stikin “constitutional” right to murder.

    Australia changed their gun laws after 1 mass shooting. Here in America, nothing changed thanks to gunnuts who are more worried about their toys than the people dead by them. I don’t see dictatorship in Australia, Japan or other countries such as Canada.

    Ah america’s 2nd amendment: The freedom to get killed in a school, movie theater, mall, place of business or your very own home. Thanks nra and TTAG

    Another blind sad pathetic deluded fools, You sound just like the rest I have sent packing. I would rather own an air gun powered at 12 pounds per square foot than be part of an organisation which clings onto the second amendment. Why don’t you just admit that gun laws are wrong in America or do you get some sort of kick out of being a part of the deaths of innocents. Your angry whining rant just about sums up your attitude gun terrorists.

    How many more have to die? U.S. Gun laws need overhauling and quick the U.S. Is the only western nation with such an obscene level of gun violence. All due to lax gun laws guarded fearcley by the likes of the nra. Well done cunts yet more blood on your hands

    • 1. There is no reason to use foul language
      2. What do vaginas have to do with anything? Presuming your male… Why when trying to condensend us you call us one of the things you probably love most in this world.
      3. Do some unbiased research on firearm use in modern societies.
      4. I think I speak for everyone on TTAG and anyone who believes in the right of self defence and self preservation when I say that you disgust me on a cellular level. Its people like you who speak and vote without using your brain who inslave the rest of us…

  15. Lol, Look at the terrorist gun-nut morons thinking canada is some 3rd violent dictatorship.

    Ah america’s second “right” : Ah! The freedom to get killed in a school or movie theater, any place of business even your own home. Thanks nra and ttag!

    Australia changed their gun laws after 1 mass shooting. Here in America, nothing changed thanks to gunnuts who are more worried about their toys than the people dead by them. I don’t see dictatorship in Australia, Japan or other countries.

    THE ONLY LOGICAL REASON we do not have universal B. G. checks has to be money. The more illegal guns sold, the more money the Gun Manufactures make. And, the more they pay TTAG, and the Republicans in congress to INSURE that illegal gun are sold to for any Felon, Insane or just plain Evil People.
    Gun sales=Profits=Killings=More Gun Sales.
    If, as Republicans want is to believe, there are 10 million ISIL types in the USA, They could ALL have The Most Dangerous of Killer Weapons In a week. And, why the heck would they not use AK-47s to kill 100,000s in a day when Republicans make it so easy for them?
    Talk about securing the border is FOLLY when we do NOTHING TO PROTECT OURSELVES FORM ANY GANG ALREADY HERE!

    America has been safe under Obama except for MASS KILLINGS by LEGAL AMERICANS. I know there will always be a rat in the yard. But, that does not mean I should feed it cheese, and scream at the cheese maker.

    OK then ammosexuals if you want to rant over the mis-read and mis-interpreted 2nd Amendment and if you want to keep providing weapons to the mentally ill, criminally insane, illegal immigrant, dully convicted and under age— then I will debate your NRA stupidity back to the feudal days of the Middle Ages where it belongs.

    • In case you was actually unable to comprehend the article to which you have responded, let me TL;DR it for you: your Canadian firearm laws are more lax than in quite a few US states, and even then riddled with holes a bus could drive through. If you think that they are what actually prevents people from going on a shooting rampage, you’re either clueless or insane.

    • We have these universal background checks in Canada, wrapped up in a nice package with gun owner licencing, safe storage laws, registration, the whole nine yards, everything you guys have been clamouring for. Canada is your gun control paradise.

      How much difference has it made in our rates of violent crime/murder?

      None.

      Not a bit.

      Harp all you want about “the rising tide of gun violence”, and how we need “common sense” laws to stop it, we’ve already been down that road, and the promised benefits never materialized.

      Heck, I’ve even got studies to back up that claim, rather than wild (and misspelled) conjecture:
      http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=13506
      http://www.mediafire.com/view/?lpekoeub268b8af

      Feel free to peruse them at your leisure.

    • Willy_lunchmeat is a regular hit-and-run troll. Do not feed him. He is not interested in honest debate. He wont listen to facts. He is not worth our time.

    • From one Canadian to presumably another Canadian… Its extremely sad how little you seem to know real/relevant firearm FACTS and how little you seem to understand the importance of gun rights. They are the ONE thing that gives the people the power to keep their government in check and yes this 100% applies to Canada. Without a long gun registry we no longer have to register any of our rifles and shotguns so we can also now do private sales which are untraceable. A big step in the right direction. The RCMP says that there are roughly 8 million firearms in Canada. According to some other studies there is closer to probably 25 million or more. That puts about one firearm in every Canadians hand. Per capita that is almost the same as the states. BTY. Canada now has higher violent crime rate then the states per capita and no legal way to carry a tool for self defense (yet my car has a spare tire in case of a leak and my house has a fire extinguisher in case of a fire, I guess cars and houses are more valuable then my life) So tell me fellow Canadian how we are soooo much better then the USA?

    • Ah Willy Lunchmeat, if only you knew what you were talking about.

      Your quote: “THE ONLY LOGICAL REASON we do not have universal B. G. checks has to be money. The more illegal guns sold, the more money the Gun Manufactures make. And, the more they pay TTAG, and the Republicans in congress to INSURE that illegal gun are sold to for any Felon, Insane or just plain Evil People.
      Gun sales=Profits=Killings=More Gun Sales.”

      But the fact is, virtually all of the gus sold without background checks are USED. The gun manufacturers don’t make any money at all off of these sales. In fact, they arguably lose money because if the used gun wasn’t available, people would have to buy new guns only, through FFL’S, who perform background checks.

      So your whole argument is destroyed. Guns are not evil. People who enjoy the shooting sports are not evil. We just don’t like moronic “supervision” from people such as yourself who don’t know what they’re talking about.

      P.S. compare the violent crime rates in US/Australia/UK. You might be surprised. They have plenty of violent crime too, just more often committed with knives or other weapons. And thugs over there know their targets will be defenseless if they are stronger and/or have a bigger knife/club/fist. The fact that we have so many lawful carriers here, who have to go through EXTENSIVE background checks, is a deterrent to predatory criminal behavior.

      A CCW permit holder is something like 20 less likely to commit a crime over a given time period than the general population at large.

  16. Canada (like everywhwere else on the planet that you encounter it) is governed by ‘We the People’, if a piece of paper that recites your country’s governance failed to recite it, tough sh_t. Canucks are not governed yet by robots, those a-holes with the extra flesh around them are still in fact only ‘people.’ It’s not a problem with firearms, or magazines, or those that employ them, necessarily. It’s those aforementioned a-holes that is the problem. Some of them may possibly be your local neighbors. It’s safer to assume that they are attempting to use their position(s) of power [a/k/a their position of public servitude] to position you and yours at a serious and permenant disadvantage in a coming civil war, or war with China. History has already spiken on such matters. Why don’t you focus on that real issue.

  17. Nothing like a streak of Cree-ate-tivity to foil government censors. Love it…just another rattle on their cage.

  18. Canada has just 11% of the USA’s population and more importantly, less than 1% of the USA’s gang membership numbers.
    If you equalize our gang numbers to resemble Canada’s, (not surprisingly) the homicide rates also equalize. No change in firearm laws necessary, nor would one do a whit of good, gangs are merely organized crime networks that import drugs and guns without regard for US law.

  19. See Canada has Reasonable and Sensible Gun Laws. We need more Gunsense like Canada has..if it saves one child. We need a debate about guns….for the children. Ban Ghost Assault Machine Guns and 30 caliber clips which can be emptied in half a second now.

  20. Ah yes how we anxiously await the .50 Beowulf pistol up here. Of course if this pistol is ever made absolutely none would be sold up here. But the mags? You could make a fortune on them alone.

  21. While some are importing .50 Beowulf mags, there are .50 Beowulf mags being built right in Canada. Check out Press Check Ventures!

  22. “Lets point out a way a law doesn’t totally squash freedom, after all no anti-gunners read this blog”

  23. And in Sweden everything is allowed if you can motivate a need for it. Unfortunately the one guy who gets to decide things (not elected) hates guns and makes up shit all the time to try and ban everything. Last thing was that any kind of modularity in a gun (change stock on a bolt action rifle for example) is a military feature and so is banned. There are no laws that say this. But he just makes up shit. So we basically have to drag the police to court for every license now. We win, but the process takes a couple of years… Sad when you live in a socialist state where big brother knows what is best. 0 Rights.

  24. Huh, and here I thought the ridiculous technical legal definition of a pistol was an artifact of US law. Sad to see that it’s the same in Canada.

    • It’s actually surprisingly hard to give a non-technical description of a pistol beyond “I know it when I see it” (which is obviously not appropriate for a law). Try it yourself.

  25. Yes our mag restrictions are silly. But loop holes are meant to be exploited. Thats why i have a CR4! The CX4 pictured above is actually restricted due to its short barrel and it considered restricted the same as a hand gun.

  26. As an Australian, whenever I hear about another country’s gun laws the next thing I do is read about their immigration laws. 😉

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