The fallout from the Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms carve-out on Illinois’ licensing scheme has been nothing less than brutal. The words “they’re dead to me” pretty much sum up the prevalent reaction.

So the question now becomes: is there anything they could do to get out of the proverbial doghouse? Smith & Wesson survived their political debacle. So did Ruger. What would it take — if anything — to put Springfield and Rock River Arms back in your good graces?

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

139 COMMENTS

  1. Repent in sackcloth and ashes. Really though, there are enough people making ARs and 1911s that we don’t need these companies. Let them die to serve as an example of how to ruin a business.

    • I have not bought a Ruger since 1989.
      I haven’t bought a S&W since 2001.
      There is no redemption.
      There is plenty of competition.
      No one needs Springfield Armory or Rock River Arms.

  4. Complete regime change, refuse to sell a single part to any part of IL government, and move out of IL!! Last but not least, wait. S&W struck a deal with the clintons in 2000 and I didn’t buy a S&W until the end of 2016. This deal was a complete sell out. All those times we roll our eyes when some antigunners claim that the big gun companies are just out for themselves. THIS TIME THEY ARE RIGHT!!

    • #1 Identify and publicly fire those employees who had any role in this compromise.

      #2 Close operations in Illinois and relocate to a neighboring free state, like Iowa or Missouri.

      • I feel for the many employees that will be hurt by this insane action by management.
        Do these and I might consider a purchase.
        1. Fire those responsible for the action of appeasement.
        2. Publicly apologize for the support of the onerous legislation.
        3.Contribute to the effort to prevent further erosion of 2A rights.
        I’ll get back to you if I can think of anything else.
        Fearless Fred

      • #3 Fight tooth and nail to defeat this bill in the house and governors office

        Show the grabbers that deals struck with (supposed) pro gun lobby’s (which IFMA is not) cannot be tolerated or trusted. Only complete repeal of gun control is acceptable terms

      • No, they should not move out of the state. They need to remain in the state or they will be seen as even bigger traitors. They must right their own wrongs.

      • “#1 Identify and publicly fire those employees who had any role in this compromise.”

        Insufficient for that degree of 2A treason.

        Ralph below correctly described what must be done to trust them again.

        Firing who made that decision won’t work because whoever made that decision did it with the blessings of the ownership. And apparently, upper management is the company’s owner.

        To trust them again, the company must be sold to someone with *zero* ties to the old one.

        The upper management who proposed that stunt must be terminated, and the new owner replace them.

        Letting the company go bankrupt is unacceptable since it will hurt the employees who make the guns…

  5. 1. Apologize and admit the error of their ways.
    2. Provide 1 new free handgun to every single law abiding citizen in Illinois.

  6. 1. Obviously, vocally and effectively walk this stupidity back.
    2. Obviously, vocally and effectively back pro-second amendment legislation and candidates.
    3. Get actual – yes actual – pro-gun results. Kill this bill in the House, Point to other signed legislation they’ve promoted.

    They are dead to me until they can show some results. Might take a while. That’s OK. I have a very long memory.

  7. The whole “Legacy” P/R campaign; in your face CEO at Springfield, just cemented the outcome. Talk about “out of touch”.
    I think Rock River will fare much better.

    The real winner; Henry’s, “Made in America or not made at all” from a CEO who walks the walk; and really cares about it’s customers. There’s no P/R campaign at Henry. Just you the customer, talking to the CEO. Like two men who understand the love of the sport.

    • I completely agree! I currently own one Henry rifle (.22 LR/L/S lever action) and will be purchasing a pistol caliber carbine this summer. I have owned the .22 since 2008. As someone who is a former LEO and a law enforcement firearms instructor since 2007, I can say that this is my favorite firearm of everything I own (which is probably too much). It is a fun shooter and quality built.

      When I first purchased the rifle, I noticed it didn’t warn about dry firing and damaging the firing pin anywhere in the owner’s manual. I sent Henry an e-mail through their website on the weekend trying to find an answer to my question. Monday morning, the CEO himself had responded to my question! He clarified that it will not be damaged by dry firing. We conversed back and forth that day.

      That action by him made my respect for Henry go through the roof. I paid around $200 at the time for the rifle from Walmart, and it seemed well-built for the money. They gained a life-long customer.

      I’m saddened by Springfield’s sellout. I definitely WON’T buy anything from them for 10-years (an M1A was on my June purchase list), unless they issue a statement admitting wrong and lobbying for this new law’s reversal (if it gets signed). They need to cover ALL legal expenses for the attorneys to take it to SCOTUS.

      I didn’t purchase anything Ruger for 10-years, and Smith also paid the same price. I think Ruger’s culture has significantly changed since 1994, and so I don’t have any issue supporting them these days.

      • The ‘new’ Ruger has done MORE for 2A rights than all other companies combined, IMO. (Bill Ruger died in 2002 with the legacy of being called ‘America’s Gunmaker’). You can send emails directly to their CEO; I have, even getting personal responses back. Undisputed superb customer service, voice of the consumer, etc. Exceptionally reliable products at prices that a working person can afford. Currently the best firearms company, along with Henry. If you want chaos and corruption, look to Glock (different from what SA & RRA did, but Gaston is a pig of a man). Who hasn’t made a terrible decision in their life; remember hindsight is 20/20. Don’t forget that desperation often makes a person or company make a very regrettable decision. I only buy American Made firearms, so SA & RRA were not on my shopping list anyhow. The real losers are the many dedicated employees who may no longer have a job and be able to meet their mortgages, car payments, etc. But SA & RRA need to make immediate reversals very bad decision making; I think the handwriting on the wall is painfully obvious already

    • Ha just remembered that. Guess they don’t actually believe the “Defend Your Legacy” tagline. They sold their Legacy for no pieces of silver and a chance to lick boot.

  8. Correct me if I’m wrong, but both of those scandals were pre-“The internet is so prevelant that we carry around computers in our pockets.” era. Now the news spreads like wildfire to everyone in moments unlike the days when you’d have to be subscribed to some form of old media (or get it by word of mouth from one of the blessed informed). Unfortunately there are some less scrupulous individuals who will take full advantage of the future “shame sales pricing”, and some memories will fade. I think some brands are too big to fail even after running afoul of such scandals, but their reputation will forever be tarnished.

    Hey. Don’t take it from me. Ask hunters if they’re still buying UA, or ask Cheaper Than Dirt how their $99.99 magazines sold during the recent panics.

    • I haven’t bought a single UA piece since they let go of that woman’s sponsorship over her husband hunting a bear. I use to buy quite a bit of UA stuff I don’t hunt but I do fish and spearfish. Since then they probably lost $500 from me alone. It went to NewBalance, Columbia and other.

      CTD on its site states they change prices based on market demand. If you don’t like the price don’t buy. During that time they were the only ones that had the stuff besides gunbroker. I heard of the order cancel rumors. Just because it’s in your cart doesn’t mean anything. And I haven’t heard a lot of first hand stuff and I’ve used them for over a decade with no issues. They rape you on shipping so just purchase the items they have with free shipping. They are my last choice though because of their shipping.

      • Agreed on the UA boycott. I’m an avid flag football fanatic who switched over to Adidas and Reebok cleats, gloves, and apparel.

        As for the CTD fiasco, it wasn’t just items in the cart. I’m one of the people who had placed an order, with a confirmation number, for a couple of AR mags and got an email that said due to an unexpected increase in demand the item was no longer in stock. I figured no big deal, until the next day said AR mags were available on the site for triple the price. That’s bogus business practice right there….

  10. 1. Renounce the house of D and all its members.
    2. Publicly fund GOP election campaigns to the tune of a few million dollars.
    3. Publicly fund a staunch opposition to ANY anti-gun bills in IL.
    4. Fire and blacklist all the lobbyists who performed said backstabbilng.
    5. Start and press court cases trying to overturn every single gun legislation in IL. Sue the people in power personally, just to make them pay to defend themselves.

    I STILL refuse to by any S&W product. It will be a cold day in hell before I give money to quislings.

    • “It will be a cold day in hell before I give money to quislings”

      I wish I could say the same thing, but I just did my taxes about a month ago. I don’t know how much of that went to anti-freedom, anti-American, or UN/Globalist causes, but some did.

  11. I was really disappointed to hear about this on Friday. I have two XDs’, a 3.3 in 9MM and a 4.0 in .45. Both have been great so far as daily carry guns, and are great shooters as subcompact, single-stack pistols go. I’ll continue to carry both. I was thinking of getting a Range Officer for my first 1911, and possibly a full-sized XD, but I won’t anymore. The only thing that would bring me back to the fold would be new corporate management, who would disavow the actions of the current management, with hat-in-hand.

    Oh, and I saw some posters in the initial thread when this news broke trashing the quality of the XD series due to the Croatian lineage, etc. If you have specific stories regarding this, please feel free to share them. Otherwise, don’t trash the quality of the product because of a bad decision by management, especially if you have no experience with the product.

    • I’m in a similar situation, I have a full size, old school xd45 service 4″, 3.3″ xd mod2 .45 compact, the xds 9mm I got for my wife, and my xds 9mm with one payment left, to be paid tomorrow. If they wouldn’t charge me 20% of sales price to cancel I would, i also was going to get the range officer, but not now. I swear by my xd’s, but unless they become for the people, instead of for government and a fat paycheck, over 2k in pistols in a year is plenty to pay them, they have lost a very loyal customer until thy shit gets together in IL.

    • While they are dead to me now, I have had an xdm in 9mm since 2009. Runs like a champ. Not a single failure and I’ve beat the hell out of it.
      Too bad that it’s parent company sold us out. Especially since I live in Illinois.

  12. They have more than this recent stunt of greed to atone for. Their whole marketing campaign during the last year or so reeks of the most cynical and crass forms of advertising manipulation which shows a company that is astoundingly tone deaf and very low in integrity. I have never purchased a Springfield Armory product – their rifles are overpriced and their pistols are next of kin in ugliness to Hi Point – and I reckon I never will. That is unless the company returns to some semblance of basic humility and honesty, does its part to defend the 2nd Amendment for all, and lays off the over-the-top marketing.

  13. Meh. Total First World Problem. Doesn’t even raise my give-a-shit meter an iota.

    I put this in the category of blue-state shenanigans. Elect a bunch of Liberals, expect to operate and live by Liberal rules. Luberals are well known anti-gunners. Understand these rules and then live accordingly. As a red stater, I give a solid “whatever”.

    Flame away. I’ve got thick skin.

    • You do realize that most of us in Illinois have no say in Springfield given how throughly the districts are grrrymandered thanks to Chicago? Right? I would point out the a GOP governor with an overwhelmingly DNC legislature means that the districts need to be redrawn.

    • As a resident of IL, and a strong supporter of the Second, I won’t flame you. I didn’t ask to be here in IL, but I also haven’t done anything to leave IL. When your entire life is rooted in one state, it makes life difficult.

      With all that, there is a vast majority of gun owners and supporters constantly fighting. Not only for our rights here, but the implication any such laws can pose on other states. You just witnessed a absolute sellout by two well known manufacturers. Think it can’t happen in your backyard?

    • I guess you better hope you never need help, or the support your fellow enthusiasts, Gray, as you may be disappointed to find the reaction a resounding, “meh, it’s just Gray, who cares?”

      You are the kind of ally 2A supporters can do without.

  14. The best they could hope for is to become completely different companies with completely new management. Ruger is only off the naughty list because Bill is dead and gone and management took a hard corrective course. S&W is still on the list as far as I am concerned.

  15. Smith & Wesson and Ruger are different companies today.

    The Smith & Wesson of the Clinton era HUD agreement was British owned at the time. Since then they’ve been bought and sold twice. The entire corporate structure of S&W is different from back then in the 90s. When the ownership came in, the declared that the previous agreement with the Clinton Administration was null & void due to a new presidency (GWB) and new ownership.

    Ruger has nothing to do with Bill Ruger anymore. Bill is dead and his family has no connection to the company. They’re a publicly traded company today.

    Springfield Armory is still privately owned by Dennis Reese. Rock River Armory is currently owned by Chuck Larson.

    Time will tell.

    I can say this. If the companies are to continue to exist. They might have to pull a S&W and Ruger from the past and shed their current leadership.

    I for one will not be supporting such businesses.

    Luis Valdes
    Lou4NRA.org
    [email protected]

    • If S&W’s agreement with the Clintons is null and void, why do they still make revolvers with the hated internal locks? Not arguing, just wondering if there’s a reason. I always thought the internal locks were a carryover from that sell-out. I won’t buy a new-production Smith revolver for no other reason than I hate the lock. Instead, I’m always looking for an old S&W wheel gun.

  16. It destroyed the Brit-owned S&W, and rightly so. Saf-T-Hammer bought their assets at the resulting fire sale.

    It should have destroyed Ruger.
    Bill retired in 2000 and died in 2002, good riddance, rot in peace and all that, but I can accept that the current management of Ruger is not responsible for the actions of that dead sack of crap.
    What I can’t accept is that Ruger the company was still alive in 1996 after the whole 1994 gun ban debacle.

    I’m not quite willing to impose a death sentence on SA and RRA for the actions of a third party, but the fact that the third party may have been acting as their agent brings me close to that point.

    They should have immediately renounced the acts of IFMA. The fact that I haven’t seen that happen yet brings me closer to the death sentence.

    • Ruger survived because of making great firearms that a regular person could afford.

      • There are plenty of affordable reliable guns. Making a good product should be a requirement of staying in business, but not the only one. It would have been better if they had failed spectacularly and gone bankrupt in return for their little dealmaking.

        I hope that’s what happens here, though I doubt it.

        • ” It would have been better if they had failed spectacularly and gone bankrupt” I don’t usually get pissed off by a comment, but this crosses the line. What other firearms company in the last 15 years (Bill died in 2002) has done as much as Ruger to support the 2A and firearms owners. Let’s also talk about the huge financial impact they have on the economy; you don’t make over a million firearms a year without a huge contribution to it. Great product, service, reliability, product innovation, etc, etc, etc. Think of the financial impact on their employees should they fold up. Jobs don’t grow on trees (just yet) thanks to 8 years of an anti-American POS defiling the White House. I would not have bought SA or RRA, but only because their product holds no interest for me; I have tried it. Hope they fix it before the people who had no dealings with the erroneous decision suffer.

        • Ruger’s existence hasn’t done as much for 2nd Amendment rights as its failure would have done, because if it had dramatically failed it would have served as notice to every other gun company out there. Deals like the one Ruger made are how we lose, inch by inch, day by day. And they do it when they know they can get away with it. Then when the tides change a bit they act contrite and shore up for the next round. I would like for the price to be higher for them.

          I am not interested in how many guns it sold after it sold out its customers. I don’t think the paychecks it sends are as important as the paycheck it cashed. There are plenty of companies that can fill the void for both (and this was proved during recent years of boom). And innovation, reliability?. They make guns. They’re not making rocket ships. I don’t know why there is a meme that they are magically reliable- they aren’t (I know from experience), they’re as reliable as the competition and a bit heavier. Their customer service IS good- I’ve found it to be about on par with other major firearms manufacturers.

          Now, I certainly don’t want them to fail now- there’s no advantage. But had they collapsed or had to restructure or sell at the time, it would have been a clear example to other companies that they would lose their civilian market share if they decided to make terms with antis. At least S&W got blasted in sales and ended up being sold at a big loss.

          Ruger is a profit-seeking company. Don’t care about them more than they care about you. And believe me, they won’t get angry if someone posts mean things about YOU on the internet.

          • Don’t ALL companies seek profit; no profit they don’t last. Moronic comment.

        • The list of those doing so in THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA is one hell of a lot short though.

          • I do not buy import guns or guns made with imported parts. Sticking with Henry & Ruger.

    • Short term damage could be high but overall I believe both firms will survive and in a year or so it will all but be forgotten as the publics attention span, even gun owners and shooters, is short and fickle.

  17. I only own 1 Rock River nine millimeter carbine that I have done a lot of work too so I plan on keeping it. I don’t own one Springfield because I just don’t care for them. And I’m a little offended them claiming a hundred and seventy-seven years of service when the company is not the same as the original armor. And the guys that Rock River really don’t make a very decent product so it’s no love lost there either. Good riddance to him.

      • I’ve run into more than a few Springfield owners who honestly believed the rifles/pistols they bought new, were made by the historical Springfield Armory…. and one who specifically bought an M1A because his Dad carried a Springfield M14 in ‘Nam. The dealer he bought it from played that angle perfectly; I felt bad accidentally breaking the news to him that it wasn’t a “real” Springfield, but he thanked me later because he traded the M1A for a “real” Springfield…. an M1 Garand like the one his Granddaddy carried in France.

  18. Since I have never bought or considered either brand and won’t in the future, there is nothing they can or should do to convince me to be a customer.

  19. Flip their stance very publicly.
    Start backing R’s very publicly.
    Start a “kill the bill” campaign. Again, very publicly.

    • Republicans aren’t that great. In Florida; NRA ‘A’ rated and Endorsed Republicans kill pro gun bills.

      This year’s killer is Senator Anitere Flores and Senator Rene Garcia.

      They both were endorsed and supported by the NRA. Worse though is that Flores the day before she begged for NRA endorsement she voted ‘yes’ for a special legislative session for gun control.

      She’s one of the reasons why I’m running for the board of directors for the NRA in 2018.

      Luis Valdes
      Lou4NRA.org
      [email protected]

      • HooRay Luis !!
        Tell it brother.
        Red or Blue, they will lie to your face to get your vote before the backstabbing begins.
        I wish y’all would treat and act upon these asshat politicians the same way we are talking about these corporations.
        They all deserve the wall, or at least the public stock with plenty of fecal drenching buckets on hand.

        I gotta have a Snickers…

  20. On the used market, I have no issues buying or selling as the company sees none of those profits. And the XD is reasonably well-supported by the aftermarket. (As is the AR … And the sky is blue.)

    On the new-stock side … It’ll take a lot, starting with convincing me I really want one. I already build my own ARs, and as a family we’ve moved away from XDs to something we all shoot well. (Interchangeability in case of crisis, don’t ya know.). I have several XD/m/mod2/etc already.

    I think XDs are good pistols, as can be 1911s, but there’s enough competition in all categories both Springfield and RRA compete in, there’s no real overriding need I see to go with either brand.

    • ^This. I think there’s plenty of “fire and pokey pitchfork” to go around; hate to see it not applied where it’s deserved, and only stuck to SA and RRA.

  22. Ruger and Smith were the first and could have claimed they didn’t know what would happen.

    Springfield and RR have no such excuse. Not only are they dead to me, they have silver stakes driven right through their heaerts.

  23. Everyone and their grandma are making guns now. In this type of market there is so much competition that I see no reason to support a gun company if they do even one act that I consider anti gun/freedom. Frankly, I hope they go under so better competition can take their place and learn from that the people of the gun will not accept traitors to the cause.

  24. 1. The current CEO sand everyone who approved the sellout should be terminated.
    2. They need to publicly admit that they acted selfishly and not in the interests of the gun-buying public..
    2. They need to make a large contribution to SAF and GOA.

  25. NOTHING. I live in Illinois. Everyone not agreeing is CLUELESS. This crap happens often in Illinois. ONE freakin” vote was the margin. Springfield sided with satan. They are dead to me forever…call RAUNER and tell him to veto this crap.

  26. 1. Declare that changing to neutral was a mistake. Apologize.
    2. Fire the CEO and anyone else that thought this was a good idea.
    3. Donate a large sum of money to the Second Amendment Foundation.
    4. Spend money doing whatever they have to do to defeat this bill (ads).
    5. Start leading the fight for 2nd Amendment rights in Illinois (and the US).

  27. I go like this. Once they start selling M1As under 800 and ARs under 300. I may think about it.

    • And that would accomplish what, exactly?

      Springfield and Rock River Arms are both located in Henry County, Illinois. It’s a rural area of the state where there isn’t much industry. It’s about a three-hour drive from the manure pit known as Chicago. The people there are as red-blooded and pro-gun rights as anyone in the country.

      Obviously the low-life Chicago legislators don’t give a rip about the jobs in Henry County, and the legislators from Henry County are already pro-2A Republicans.

      Springfield and Rock River obviously have a certain amount of pull with the legislature, however, which they used for entirely selfish purposes. If they stay in Illinois, and learn from their mistake, they could help us fight Chicago tyrants. If they leave, then Illinois’ gun owners are on our own.

      Their sellout makes me sick. But moving out of the state won’t correct any misdeeds and it would be bad news for gun rights in Illinois.

  29. The shareholders forcing the CEO out would be enough for me. I don’t believe in punishing innocent people for the transgressions of their superiors.

    • It’s a privately owned company and run by the Reese brothers.
      Until now they were a pretty decent pro 2A company donating tons of money to the cause.

      • Ah, well then, they should probably tie their necks in bed sheets and throw themselves off the balcony.

        Or sell the company.

  30. They never had it so it really doesn’t matter. Nor do they produce anything I’d want. I have an early 90’s Armscorp M1a that’s awesome with lug and some GI parts. So I have no desire for one of theirs. RRA ARs never caught my eye either.

  31. I’ve built my own AR’s and have a 1911 that I love, so SA was never much on my list anyway, although an M1A would have been pretty cool. RRA, don’t know much about them and don’t care, so I’m not someone that either company could’ve expected any business from anyways, unless it was on a lark. I’ve heard good things about SA’s products, but I’ve also heard good things about plenty of other manufacturers too. Maybe I’d buy a SA firearm if it was used, but I have very specific guns on my To Buy list right now and none of them are SA or RRA

  32. As someone who has lived through his employer’s bankruptcy, I don’t want to see those people lose good paying jobs because of their management being out of touch with their customers. Springfield Armory makes quality guns, and I don’t want to see them fold up but some things will need to change such as:

    1. Admitting your actions were not in the best interest of the 2A and gun owners.
    2. Stop treating your customers as if they are stupid and uninformed. They are your best source of knowledge of where your company should be headed and would have kept you out of the oncoming disaster.
    3. Get rid of the “Grip Zone”.
    4. Actively support grassroots 2A organizations inI Illinois and elsewhere.
    5. Fire your marketing people. See 2 and 3 above.
    6. Be prepared to do this for a long time before you see results.

    • They can do all of that and it won’t reverse the damage (if the Governor doesn’t veto). So the lesson to them is that they can keep making deals except they’ll have to make some contrite statements afterwards, fire a couple of mid-level employees and donate a pittance to non-profits.

      Seems like they’ve stumbled on a winning business model in Illinois.

      • True. That’s why I didn’t mention any specific remedy, that ship has sailed. The best they can do is suffer through the effects this will have on the company, and actively show support ($$$) in renewed efforts working against bills like this. SA and RRA are now taking the position they were clueless about the IFMA carve out. We can really never know. But they need to make sure it doesn’t happen again and that’s all they can do. SA and RRA will survive. The last eight years have vastly expanded the gun market. Yes, things are a little slower right now but there are many more gun owners now than before. While they will lose business from this, it won’t have the same effect as the boycott of S&W simply because there are more gun owners and most of the new owners are not paying attention to state level politics outside of their home state.

  33. Maybe I’m just not the torches and pitchforks type but I still don’t see any evidence that RRA had anything to do with this and their statement would seem to suggest that they didn’t know what the lobbying group was doing until it was done.

    Springfield OTOH came out and said something flat-out dumb once this news broke.

    Truthfully that leaves me in about the same position I was in before this news. Springfield offers nothing I have any real interest in and there isn’t any evidence that RRA has done anything that ticks me off.

    It would be nice if RRA would now repudiate the lobbying group and Springfield needs to do some serious work as well as drop that group, but still I probably won’t buy anything else from them because I wasn’t going to anyway.

    Really, if I went nuts every time a company did something I don’t care for politically I’d have about zero companies to buy from.

  34. Literally nothing. I wouldn’t have bought either of the hadn’t screwed the pooch.

  35. There is a whole lot of sound and fury right now. They will see short term dips in sales but both firms will soldier on and survive. The publics memory is short and fickle. One year from now this will all be a faded memory.

  36. Springfield Armory’s leadership would have to flog themselves (nude) in a procession around Chicago – clockwise. Rock River Armory’s leadership would have to do the same – counterclockwise. Whenever the two groups of penintents meet they must pause and read ttag clickbait comments aloud.

    • As long as they’re not doing the walk-of-shame like Circe did. Ew. Although there certainly won’t be a lack of flung feces.

      And I don’t see either group making a full circuit intact, especially if they’re made to experience what being disarmed is like for the rest of law-abiding Chicago.
      No carve-outs for you! End of the Line!

  37. Nothing really. I had no interest in their product prior to this, so there’s nothing short they can do besides custom making guns for me for free.

  38. RRA and Springfield were dead to me already……….average quality overpriced firearms does that to me.

  39. Nothing, Stopped buying fire arms from S&W many years ago on a service dispute and I get along real well
    Rock river prices, have built my own .45 style parts guns for years!

  40. The company is a fiction of machines and tools that change over time. It’s the people who run them that suck. Smith and Wesson, the Brits left town with a huge loss. Bill Ruger died. I don’t blame Colt for Sam Colt arming Yankees to kill southerners.

    But for me Springfield has always been a scam. A name that they took from the government, 1911’s that were built by Taurus (frames are the same) and the HS2000 they bought for 5 liters of vodka and a sack of potatoes. Only FUDsloked them because they have an archaic belief in the series 70 style system. Screw them all. Including the GM automobile I won’t buy.

  41. Sold my almost new XDM threaded today. Felt betrayed so I got rid of it today for a $200 loss. Putting the money towards a CZ 75 omega. If they want my business again they need to fight hard for it. Even then it won’t happen for years. That being said I won’t sell my M1a anytime soon.

    • Well, that was kind of dumb. Not only did you not affect SA’s sales any, you lost $200 on the transaction. Way to make a statement!

  43. As a bare minimum all upper management needs to go starting with C level employees.

  46. Out spend Bloomburg with pro 2nd amendment propaganda. Give the mommies more money than bloomburg to protest for freedom and self defense rights.

  47. Fire those responsible for the decision, and their supervisors who didn’t stop them.

    I didn’t shop S&W until it was clear the management was not the same as the ones who did business with Clintons. Ruger is well under new management so they can be safe to buy from.

  48. I see the mass majority is to view the company brand in and of itself.

    I for one think my Springfield machines are great pieces.
    I don’t wish to see Springfield stop producing and I don’t want to see people stop buying from them.

    The company itself is fine, just because some big wigs made a stupid decision shouldn’t automatically black ball the entire company.
    As its been said, remember when you try to hurt the CEO’s by not buying, you actually only hurt the floor level people, to make up for the lost sales, the higher ups will simply make cuts to the bottom, less over time, fire a few stragglers, reduce bonuses, freeze pay raises, etc..

    The guys with the deep pockets will largely remain unaffected.
    I believe you would do more damage by hurting the name of the company than to just not purchase.
    I would directly try to advocate to the lead authority figures and try to force the stocks to drop.

    Sticking it to the poor first rarely ever works, its just hurts us, the typical blue collar guys trying to make it.

    So, change out the fellas that made the bad call, or have them apologize and see the err in there way. Then its fine.

    I agree, First world problems.
    Fight the legislature head one, don’t let a company’s bad call make or break your drive.

  50. I have an XDS 3.3 in .45 and a brand new XDM 4.5 in .45. I like bothe, and I’ll continue to use both, just like I’ll continue to wear my Levis. I just won’t consider springfield next time I need a new gun. They could win me back by pledging to stop selling to any police agency in any state with overly restrictive laws. If every company did this (especially Glock and S&W) our brothers and sisters living in slave states would be free in a few years.

  51. If Springfield and/or Rock River Arms ever wish to sell me a single thing in the future, then they must issue a formal and sincerely humble apology admitting unequivocally, and without excuses, the selfish betrayal of our God given right enshrined in the 2nd Amendment and in the sacrifices of great Americans who give all to defend it. All can be forgiven if all is corrected. That means that an apology is only the beginning. They must get in the fight and demonstrate which side they are clearly on by working to restore the 2nd Amendment in every corner of our great nation. Then we can chalk it up to a bad mistake and forget the whole debacle. Otherwise, they are simply traitors who deserve the same contempt and ignominy as Benedict Arnold.

  52. I wanted one of the new EMP 9mms Springfield sells, and one of the CMP rifles RRA sells, so this hits me right where my tax refund is sitting.

    Now, sometimes a third party you’re associated with gets out of step with you. So I’m looking for a statement from each company to see what’s up.

    Springfield doubled down with CEO comments. They need a public mea culpa with concrete action to fix it, and firing that CEO would be a solid first step.

    RRA is on the clock. The purchase is on hold until I know. But I’d better know this week.

  54. It differs. At this point, Springfield should be bankrupted as an example, unless they do something really drastic(60% discounts for all IL residents, plus a heartfelt apology and legislative action against the bill a t least). Rock River needs to make it clear in a public statement they had nothing to do with it, plus a sincere apology, withdrawal from the group, and preffereably doing something to help stop the bill, such as funding or legal action.

  55. Springfield doesn’t have to do anything because I will continue to buy their products. Now get back to me when you start boycotting Glock and S&W for selling to slave State law enforcement agencies.

    • Selling to a state that you disagree with and having an anti-gun position on the laws of a state are two different things.

      • Bull Sh!t.

        Glock is a European company whose management fully supports the gun control agenda. They will sell to the public because they make money but would be ok with giving up the private market. If Glock, and othet major suppliers, boycotted slave states you can bet that their gun laws would become less onerous. Springfield has to operate in an extremely hostile political environment.

        • RRA sells to NY LE, and is up to their eyeballs in this shady legislation.

          RRA & SA teamed up to hire this lobbyist, they created this problem and have issued de facto joint “we knew nothing” statements.

          They created this mess. They own this.

          You’re cherry picking.

  56. If they can retool to manufacture here in the US, it will go a long way. They might go bankrupt in the process in which case it’s a win win. Starting with:
    -Make ALL XDs in the USA
    -Move operations to a free state.
    -Lower prices 10%
    -Shit can the XDE and create the Shield killer
    -Shit can all these 1911 knock offs they make and build a 1911 like the Old world intended.

  58. I forgave Smith & Wesson because it changed ownership.

    I forgave Ruger because Bill Ruger dropped dead.

    SA and RRA can choose either path and I’ll forgive them too. Otherwise, f ’em.

  59. I don’t agree with what they supposedly did (indirectly through the IFMA), and they should publicly get back on the opposition list of the bad SB. That said, I have 3 Springfield firearms (XDs-9, XD Mod.2 service 9mm, and the Saint) and love them all. They are very good quality, well-made firearms. Springfield is still on my short list when I am in the market for a new gun in the future – 1911 or long frame pistol – new or used, depending on the deals I can find. From what I hear, the XDe is a nice pointer – maybe it’ll have a spot in my EDC rotation in the future. I am still waiting for all of those folks that promised to sell their Springfields on the used market…maybe I can score some good deals. Those with pitchforks should be selling at a very low price (to me), since that would theoretically hurt the new Springfield market. However, I have a feeling they will still want top dollar for their used Springfield guns because they will want the best deal for them, why lose a decent sum of money, right?

      • Ha, hardly. I was smart enough to know there was more to the story, and I figured that the IFMA acted without consulting SA or RRA, and that turned out to be true. Everyone on here acted like a bunch of liberals – pissing their pants about something before letting the truth and facts come out. TTAG added all of the fuel to the fire by posting prematurely referring to SA and RRA in their original post by name in the title when it should have said the IFMA dropped opposition, as if it was based on fact that those companies worked with the politicians to get themselves exempt. It smelled like TTAG was trying to release “breaking news”, since they’ve claimed to be a news site in the past (which they are not). Turned out to be an unfounded farse with a lot of damage to both companies. All for naught.

  60. So did Springfield and RRA actually carve themselves out, or was it the IFMA that did the carve out? Springfield and RRA just funded the IFMA. Perhaps IFMA acted without their knowledge? RRA said they knew nothing about it. I only ask because I don’t know. I could see a group like that maybe taking funds from big money manufacturers then doing what they want and protecting their funders in the deal but those people not actually having direct knowledge. Not sure, just asking.

    • Springfield Armory CEO Dennis Reese obviously knew about it, according to the lame, incredible statement he made last week.

    • Initially I wondered the same thing. However, Reece’s statement and their lack of a response shows enough.

    • Is there a difference, practically speaking? If your support for them is influenced by it they can just say they had no idea and do it again in a year and say they had no idea again.

      Giving money to a group to do stuff and then pretending that you had no idea what they were up to is akin to Cpt. Renault saying “I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to find gambling in this casino!”

    • Do you seriously think that a lobbyist is going to make a decision of this magnitude without consulting the people that pay them? Even if that was the case both Springfield and RRA deserve everything they are getting and more for being so stupid as to hire someone that out of touch with the firearms community and the ramifications SB-1657 will have though out IL and possibly the Country.

      • I seriously believe that some heads will roll at IFMA.

        I’m a member of a fairly small group with a fairly well-compensated lobbyist. That lobbyist would never do anything not approved by the group’s leadership or he would get axed in a hurry.

        So… whether the IFMA had Springfield and RRA’s blessing on this deal or not, someone’s gotta take the fall and that someone is most likely the lead lobbyist at IFMA.

  61. Public apology. Ask forgiveness.
    Knee, slit belly, spill guts.
    Apology accepted.

    • That’s far too high-class for Chicago; a good ‘ol fashioned necklacing with a bald Goodyear is more like it, or maybe five minutes alone on the Southside.

  62. Either one of them decides to buy the ACR rights from Remington and begin churning out a decent version of those. Short of that, nope.

  63. Bill Ruger died, his son gave up operational control in 2006. S&W was on the verge of bankruptcy and sold for penny’s on the dollar of what it once was worth. So maybe if some one dies at Springfield and RRA is sold off and both companies get management that seems to care about the firearms community maybe I’ll buy from them after they prove themselves for 10 + years, (like Ruger and S&W had to do before I would consider buying from them again). Other than that nothing. Too many other companies out there that make good products and support the firearms community to ever give them a free pass for what they did to IL gun owners and small dealers.

  65. Honestly these people who are shitting all over SA and RRA need to leave and boycott the NRA because that bunch of fudds has a worse history than any gun company could. If you wouldnt buy a ruger or S&W then you shouldnt support the NRA

  66. There’s a Springfield Armory guy who needs to stand up and admit he said something very wrong. Maybe he was only speaking about one aspect of the pending legislation; maybe he didn’t even know the entirety of the legislation.

    There’s an IFMA lobbyist who needs a job performance review PDQ.

    Exempting MANUFACTURERS from a law that targets sales to the end user, retail or personal, makes all kinds of sense. If politicians weren’t so often idiots, they never would have been included in the first place. Since gun companies can only sell to distributors where was the relevance? It would seem logical that those manufactures, and their organization, should request this “carve out.”

    In their shoes, I’d certainly applaud THAT edit.

    At this point, we can’t know if they knew that the smoke filled room full of sausage making pols made any OTHER exemptions, nor if they were even fully cognizant of the entirety of the legislation beyond the part that impacted their operations.

    However, having achieved the first goal of getting MANUFACTURERS written out of the pending legislation, Jay Keller should have continued to oppose such an obviously anti 2A bill. It borders on immoral to think that any law that doesn’t have personal relevance is thereby “good.” E.g. a person’s right to have an opinion of his country’s military actions shouldn’t be dependent on whether he is 1A or 4F. Anti gun legislation probably should be considered as “bad” by gun guys in the biz. Certainly it should be thought bad for future business. One good and one self-serving reason to object to a bill that has no direct corporate relevance.

    I imagine that IMFA was sold (presumably by Mr Keller dba Capitol Consulting Group) to SA and RRA (sole members of IFMA), and they both threw in what in corporate terms is chump change to have their very own PAC. And then pretty much forgot about it. And, never thought to see just how conscientiously said Mr Keller went about his job. Well, they’ve had their wake up call.

    Not wanting to attribute evil where incompetence serves as an explanation, I see a couple of politically clueless CEOs having been taken for a ride by a professional lurker of the aisles of power lobbyist.

    I think an honest disavowal of support for the legislation, and a mea culpa for having ventured out of their league in Illinois politics would be believable. In addition, a YouTube clip of them burning their IFMA contract, and putting Mr Keller on the dole, would go a long way.

    (Well, actually not on the dole, he’s taken money from Chicagoland Speedway, Interfaith Alliance (“the faith-based voice countering the radical right”), an individual wanting to keep his high school district from acquiring land, Motion Picture Association of America, Builders Association, Cable Telivision Association, Chicago Board of Education, Entertainment Software Association, Illinois Association of Road and Transportation Builders, Illinois Small Loan Association, DuPage County, Richland Grade School District 88A, NATO of Illinois (no, the blue helmets are not coming for us all, that seems to be the National Association of Theater Owners), Recording Industry Association of America, VALIC Financial Advisors, Inc., and the Illinois Cosmetology Association/Chicago. With so many masters, how does he know when, or if, he supports ANYTHING? If you represent the Chicago Board of Education and IFMA, just what are your thoughts on 2A issues anyway?)

  67. Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms have simultaneously released statements on the legislation, absolving each other of anu wrongdoing, accepting zero responsibility and claiming, Sgt. Schulz-like, “vee knew nothink”

    http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/RRA_Stmt17.pdf

    http://blog.springfield-armory.com/springfield-armory-statement-regarding-gun-dealer-licensing-act-sb1657

    Total collusion before and after. They both waited and worked on a joint boilerplate la de da we did nothing wrong pile of excrement.

    PR FAIL.

  68. As far as I’m concerned, they’re both in my dog house for the foreseeable future.

  69. Ruger and S&W survived because there were not as many options… Even so imagine what they could be today had they not pulled that stunt in 1994.

    Springfield is dead, we do not need them. We have so many good manufactures to chose from now that they will not be missed.

  70. Stop this bill first and foremost. Second off, if it passes be the bank rollers that get it thrown out. Third, threaten to move out of state (and do such) if this bill passes. Fourth, fire their lobbyist agency and RRA/SA better hope that they don’t leak the incriminating emails when they get fired.

    Bill Ruger’s dead, and S&W is in new ownership. I’m not going to say that’s a make up for past sins, but at the same time it’s a good start; Perhaps Smith can ditch the Hillary Hole and a lot of people would rejoice.

  71. I have forgiven Ruger and S&W. Ever since their imprudent actions, they have straightened up and flew right. Rock River and Springfield need to apologize, sack the lobbyist and make amends. I think some large donations to state level gun rights groups over the next few years at a minimum. Probably at in the low millions would be a good start. Groups in Illinois, California, New York and Massachusetts need it most.

    • Pretty much this.

      And, if some can’t see past the mistake, then maybe that will free up room in the Springfield custom shop so I can actually order a pistol.

      Seriously, they’ve backpedaled, now they need to make amends.

      What ever happen to Sheriff Wilson’s remarks about not needing more than 10 rounds? That guy needs to be Zumbo’d if he doesn’t do some backpedaling himself.

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