Over at Ammoland, action movie star turned columnist Chuck Norris responds to a USA Today article warning of increased violence in churches over the holiday period. The obvious answer: hire Chuck Norris for security! Failing that, get in touch with your inner Chuck Norris (WWCND). Nope. That’s not how the world famous Okie rolls. He’s way more serious in real life. Norris recommends boning-up on both ballistic and non-ballistic defense with a bunch of books and websites on the subject. And then, finally, makes with the bullet points . . .
* Seek out church safety seminars and training conventions, such as those offered by Chinn or the National Organization of Church Security and Safety Management (http://www.nacssm.org). Sheepdog Seminars for Churches’ first seminar is Feb. 21-22, 2014, in Denver (http://www.sheepdogseminarsforchurches.com).
* I also recommend that church leaders come together with local law enforcement — maybe even officials who are a part of their congregation — to discuss church safety. At the very least, I’m certain these public servants and trained defenders with licenses for concealed weapons would be more than willing to volunteer by manning a post discreetly at public events.
* Lastly, prepare an emergency plan. Christianity Today cited Andrew G. Mills from Building Church Leaders, who said, “If a shooter gets in:
– “Pastors or other visible leaders should draw attention away from the congregation.
– “Throw hymnals, yell from multiple directions, and attempt to tackle shooter from behind en masse.
– “Establish communication with the police as soon as possible. (Preferably, only those on the church’s crisis response team should call 911.)
– “When police arrive, stay on the ground until you are told to move. When told to get up, move slowly with no objects in your hand.”
I’m not so sure about that ‘stay on the ground’ thing; why are you on the ground in the first place? Hitting the deck when the S hits the fan is a sensible response, but GTFO is job one. I’m not sayin’ that crawling or hiding horizontally is out of the question, and attacking may be a viable indeed desirable response, but feets don’t fail me now.
No matter how you slice it or what the antis argue, you’re better off in a church attack if you have a gun. So pack heat for the holidays. And train with it, following the Chun Kuk Do Code of Honor: “I will develop myself to the maximum of my potential in all ways.” Amen.
[An earlier, more sleep-deprived version of this story suggest that Mr. Norris did not recommend concealed carry for individual congregants. That was obviously false. I apologize for a bad read.]
Also, Practice your round house kicks.
-Chuck Norris does not go hunting, hunting implies the possibility of failure. Chuck Norris goes killing.
-One day Chuck Norris hooked up with a prostitute in the back of a semi truck. A single drop of semen fell on the seat. That truck is now known as Optimus Prime.
That implies Chuck was paying for said hookup…
The prostitue was paying Chuck Norris.
once the nypd cops arrive you probably are better off getting under cover…
With NYPD on the job you’re safer downrange.
Rings of security I think is important, yes there are lots of things you can do to avoid issues, like lock doors so only folks on the inside can get out, this will focus entrance to only a few places, not every door.
At my Synagog they would have LEO’s standing guard, only a couple, but sometimes just their visibility helps.
Then of course you can have volunteers, with radio head sets. While prayer is important we would have a number of folks who would CC on site, with coms. Since it is private property they didn’t need a license either. Of course we are all ex IDF. Most of the folks were quite comfortable with this arraignment. Never an issue. During Yom Kipur, we would swap staff so everyone had time to pray, so it worked out for everyone.
All staff were introduced to the LEO’s working the parking lot so there wasn’t any confusion. Patrol areas were designated so it was pretty well organized.
Also one last thing. How many people have the balls like Chuck? Run and tackle an active shooter. While yes it is a tactic, it probably not a very sane one. People’s instinct is to drop to the floor, run in panic, scoop up their kids and hide. Turning and confronting someone is not in the cards realistically.
nice. i wish our schools were as sensible with our kids.
The one example I can think of where someone had the stones to charge an active shooter is Mr. Al Gratia formerly of Killeen, TX. As I recall that did not turn out well for Mr. Gratia.
I guess if you’re going to die you might as well try fighting…
I find this to be a particularly interesting list (possibly) coming from Chuck Norris as I attend church in the town near his ranch. When I went through my CHL class the instructor mentioned that he has had “a large number” of the pastors in the area coming through his class. Additionally, last weekend as I picked up a new handgun there were two pastors there picking up new handguns as well. It would seem even those clergy who live inside the protective halo of Chuck Norris would prefer a handgun to a hymnal when confronted with crazy and/or violent individuals.
Okay, this is going to sound controversial and maybe get some panties in a bunch, but it is a serious question-
You are in church. You are praying to the (or your) God who is all powerful and created the entire universe. This is HIS house and you are His people and believe you are doing exactly what He wants and expects you to do and being good God-fearing people. So what is this concern with protecting your church and/or congregation from attack? If all is as you say and believe it is either your church WILL NOT be attacked, or any attack that does occur is God’s will.
I just have a little trouble reconciling this dichotomy.
God helps those who pack heat. Just kidding, there probably is no god, so let’s get back to living our lives.
Cliff,
God gave me the foresite, desire and ability to own and carry a pistol. If there is a mass shooting event anywhere he may give me the opportunity to stop it, or at the very least save someone’s Bacon, maybe my own. In that instance myself or another clergy member could be a blessing, to ourselves or another.
Put another way, god may let something bad happen, but very often he gives you a way out too.
The answer to that is not that simple , God allows for some freewill , because he does not want robots, next we have evil that God allows , because WE have the devil (evil forces) and God does put a limit or stop evil as it fits his plans. And he also has set in motion all the FORCES of nature, Rain, Snow, storms , the movement of the Sun and Moon, and last only God is Holy, We his creation is here for his love and grace , If man does evil , he will answer on judgment day , and If God’s people get killed they are saved by Jesus and go with God to Glory. And YES our founders followed many of the Bible’s teaching’s like self defense is ok but murder is not . We accept this because God writes his laws in our hearts, The wild life always follows God’s rules , like the ducks that fly south for winter. They are following God’s will better than we do.
Following that line of reasoning to its conclusion, there’s no reason to get out of bed in the morning. Whatever God wills will happen.
Most churches with which I’m familiar instead teach something along the lines of “God is all-powerful, but that does not absolve us of the responsibility to act justly and sensibly.”
At the risk of misapplying a Bible text, here’s another way of thinking about it:
(5) Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple
(6) and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”
(7) Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”
-Matthew 4:5-7
what does one thing have to do with an other? and your atheistic rhetoric is worn out. like it or not God is real and creation proves it. there can be no design without a designer. this designer has laws that you have violated no matter how “moral” of a person you deem yourself to be. since you do not believe in a transcendent creator you cannot possibly know absolute truth. therefore your claim to be moral and good is arbitrary and based on subjective opinion. ultimately we are all in need of redemption after having transgressed Gods laws. and redemption is provided through Jesus Christ
But the recommendations say nothing about personal armed self defense for congregants.
The post is about organizing a defense plan. Hoping armed people show up is not a good plan. A plan requires knowing what resources will be available and deciding where to places them for optimal coverage.
Here he talks about using those CCW holders (and he does explicitly differentiate them from off duty cops) for part of the structured preparedness:
“I’m certain these … trained defenders with licenses for concealed weapons would be more than willing to volunteer by manning a post”
“Hoping armed people show up is not a good plan.”
It certainly isn’t. The armed people you hope for may not be the ones that show up. It could be uncontested bad guys.
Any active defense is better than no defense. At lease he isn’t suggesting that victims just hide and hope they don’t get massacred like Liberals do.
Luckily the church I attend has a security team and the occasional LEO at service. Some on the security team are competitive (or were) shooters, hunters, business owners (guns); all who have had some sort of training and long-term gun usage. As far as the congregation goes, there are a few that carry (concealed).
We’ve had no violent incidents during a service or during working hours.
Permit me to illustrate how important this is. My church is located a quarter mile from a firehouse with an MICU. Straight shot to the church; right, right, left, left – no lights, one stop sign.
One Sunday a parishoner passed out, completely unresponsive. We called 911 immediately; the ambulance arrived in 20 minutes!
I dread to think what would have happened with an active shooter situation.
I am actually in the process of putting together a Church Security Policy (plan) that will involve locking doors other than the main entrance to the auditorium, hand radios for children’s workers down stairs and a seating arrangement and agreement from willing CC’s to keep us all on the same page if a shooter(s) were to enter our building while a service is in process. The Pastor and deacons (myself included) will approve the plan and share the general security policies with the general congregation. Only those who carry regularly will be informed of the more detailed seating arrangements and procedures if a shooter(s) enters. Our main goal with CC’s is to agree upon when/if to draw. We of course also need to follow the law of the land (MA), which states a threat of death or great bodily harm must be present. No drawing over money, or other theft… but if shots are fired and people are likely to be harmed we will have a proactive approach to carry out.
Mr. Silverman has the right idea. Rings of defense. Not all these rings need to be armed, but an option. Each ring though should have some type of radio or quick communication.
Parking attendants – Outer ring. They can be trained to look for something out of place as vehicles drive in and out. Someone who doesn’t seem to be quite right, acting erratically, etc. The radio is to get a hold of the “inner circle.” Parking attendants also help with parking and marking sure parking flows smoothly.
Greeters – Someone to greet you at the door. Not only is this welcoming, but is also a deterrent. Walmart has found out that just having a greeter at the door cuts down on theft. Same idea. Again, they can have a radio.
Ushers – These are the people that will do offertory, communion, or whatever. This circle will be trained to spot odd behavior inside the building during a service. This might also be part of the core circle.
Core circle – CCW holders (yes, I would say concealed only). They should have some type of defensive firearms training along with emergency planning, and basic medical training. This circle will be the secondary responders. (The first responders being those at the scene.) These are the people that will run to and try to defuse the situation in case one arises. This circle should be more than just a few people.
Any of these circles can call the local PD, but it should be “approved” by the core circle. There are items that should be “auto approved” such as someone that is causing damage or is threatening a life.
The reason that the core circle should be more than a few is that there could be more than once circumstance happening at once. I remember hearing of a church that those that disagreed with the stance of the church organized themselves to cause a disturbance. The group split up, some dressing up in their “Sunday best” to go inside. Once the service was going, the other half of the group caused a disturbance in the parking lot. Once the “core circle” responded, and security was addressing the situation, another disturbance happened inside the service.
As a security team, you do not want this to happen, but you need to plan for it.
You also need to work with the local PD. If the local PD knows that inner circle of the security team and they work together to build a good relationship, if the PD responds, they will (hopefully) know who is on the team, and how they have been trained. This can also help prevent any “blue on blue” shootings.
All well and good for a large congregation. For one of fewer than 100, there’s going to be one ring of security.
I brought up security @ my church and so they made me a trustee and put me in charge. We have a number of concealed carriers and we have radios w headsets. Pastor and some deacons and trustees are aware. Some would argue at tax time to write off your cost of ammo and training as a charitable expense . . . . But you should get a tax advisor to tell you what to do.
There’s usually at least two of us that are armed in our small church. As is habit, I usually sit close to the entry door.
Given the realities of religious prejudice in the world, I would expect Rabbis have probably had to give the issue more thought than your average Episcopalian Minister. They might be good sources for suggestions based on local issues and conditions.
For myself, I haven’t set foot in a church in at least fifty years, and have no plans to “get religion” any time soon.
In my opinion, organized religion is just one more excuse to hate somebody perceived as different, whether there is any real difference or not. How different would human history be without pogroms, persecutions, crusades, inquisitions, compulsory conversions, burnings at the stake, ethnic cleansing, jihad, indices of forbidden books, and on, and on, and on? People in the Third World die of starvation in the mud, while their priests and imams are surrounded by gold, incense, silk robes and servants. The whole thing is a crime and a horror, and I’ll have none of it.
Atheists have quite the bodycount, too, ya know. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc.
Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc. weren’t exactly lacking in belief. They might not have had religious faith, but they surely did believe without regard to evidence or logic. With that kind of belief, you can justify anything.
Off-topic trolling.
Not in the least off topic. If “people of faith” weren’t so eager to convert “unbelievers” and “infidels” at the point of a sword (or gun) the entire topic of this conversation would be unnecessary. Imagine Iraq today if there were no Shiite vs. Sunni.
To expand on Carlos comment above (if he will allow) – anyone – ANYONE – whether priest, politician, philosopher, or college professor who tells you he has the one, only, and absolute truth is either deluded, or a liar, and in either case is a potential tyrant, and an enemy of liberty.
“anyone … who tells you he has the one, only, and absolute truth is [pejorative]”
If I disagree with you will you think that I’m wrong? If so, does that make you one of the terms you described? (Please don’t tell me that your statement is a rational specific thought worthy of reinforcement, but religious beliefs need not be argued; anyone trying to prove something has a just desire to do so.)
I’m amazed how many people I hear saying “Don’t go telling other people what to do.” I’m not sure if that’s hypocritical or just inconsistent.
(Yes, this is completely different from pointing a gun at someone and telling them what to do.)
In response to Patrick above (there was no reply button after his post: yes, I believe you are wrong. The difference is that I am willing to let you believe in whatever socially approved superstition you chose.
I’m not going to persecute you because you believe the earth is five thousand years old. I’m not going to stone your daughter to death because she was seen holding hands with a boy. I’m not going to pack you in a cattle car to hell because you don’t have a foreskin.
Religion is the big lie, the long scam, and a plague upon the human race.
“In response to Patrick” – No, you didn’t respond to me.
I asked two questions to establish two premises.
You answered the first one with the obvious answer, then went right on to fuming (or making well-reasoned comments, if you insist) about other religions.
If you want to respond, please read again. I’m not even discussing religion here; I’m discussing the legitimacy of being confident of a mutually exclusive belief/decision.
Robert , how about making your post printer friendly , so we could print and give to friends etc… Thanks Church and office security badly needed today’s world.
My post above was, obviously, somewhat rhetorical, however, if you believe you need to provide a security plane for your church you can use this one by the following procedure:
Highlight the entire post with your mouse. Press Ctrl-C to copy the text. Open a new Word document. Press Ctrl-V to paste the text into Word. With just a little further editing you should be able to print as many copies as you want.
I provide the information because historically it can be seen that prayer alone is not sufficient to protect ANY congregation from assault by criminals, crazies or bigots. And as someone may eventually point out, “God helps those who help themselves.” Be safe out ther.
I carry to Shul as do quite a few others. Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson are standing members of my Synagogue.
I didn’t know they had converted!
No need. Ger Toshav.
Along with Mr. Browning. Got a nice motley collection of odds and ends in my Shteeble. Guy next to me has a Hi-power, two benches up has a SIG. A few IDF reservists floating around too.
The Lord helps those who help themselves. In that situation, I’m GTFO Dodge. And if you’re a shooter, don’t get in my way.
Be like one of the sheeple and have faith that the cops will save you.
Chuck Norris is a staunch supporter of gun rights and has written about in Newsmax ,which he is a contributing editor.He has quoted many of the Founders words of wisdom on why Americans need to keep and bear.Because he didn’t bring it up here doesn’t mean he doesn’t believe in it.
My ex-wife loved Chuckie and used to watch Walker, Texas Ranger at every possible opportunity. If what everyone (and Chuck) says about his stand on guns is correct, why was his hit TV show so anti-gun? Why did they constantly show private use of guns as bad and dangerous? My wife finally quit watching when I pointed out immediately after someone had been shot (I believe Chuck took a 5.56 round to the left shoulder blade, where it stopped without penetrating further), “Chuck will have someone cut the bullet out with a knife and then everything will be fine.” I said this because I had seen it more than once in the show – the BULLET is the problem. Cut it out and everything will be OK. Also note how seldom Walker actually shoots anyone with his fancy pistol. He is all about kicking ass and not about guns for personal protection.
When I see him say definitively, “The Second Amendment means EVERYONE has the right to carry a firearm for self-defense,” THEN I will change my opinion of him.
Everybody run in a blind panic towards the few exits. That’s were most of the bodies will be found by the clean up people. If you’re in a pew and armed, get low and wait.
If you ain’t armed, shame on you. Unless you live in a constitution free zone. Then you avoid malls, arenas and othering gatherings as much as possible.
A man with a knife right behind you is as good as a man with a gun right in front of you.
Self Defense – A Christian Viewpoint, by the late Dr. Marshall St. John, (who was pastor of Wayside Presbyterian Church in Signal Mountain TN, and a gun blogger)
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/09/self-defense-a-christian-viewpoint/#axzz2ZbmTPmJ3
The most important item is we in America have taken security too easy, We need to return to the founders basics , and put our everything in our own care, We have too much government now , We need to learn to be more independent of all government,,, the shut down proves we need very little government , we need to rid our self’s of about 70 to 75 % of the current government, and take control and have more freedom and everyone ends up better off and stop all the special interest groups. Rich or poor… and we will have no middle east blow back, if we take care of our own house , (fix the roads would be a good start) and remove all the gun controls ……..ALL OF THEM. and be free Americans again.
Patrick – I’m not really sure I’m understanding your second question. In fact, after reading your post a few more times, I couldn’t swear there was another question in there, but I’m going to take a swing at it anyway.
No, I’m not saying I have the answer. In fact, after a lifetime of studying history, mythology, comparative religion, anthropology, etc., etc., etc., the one thing I’m sure of is that NOBODY has the one, only, pure and true secret of the ages. Certainly not me.
If someone else thinks they do know the “truth”, that’s dandy. I don’t care. The problem is, too many people who think they’ve found the “truth” become convinced that it is their DUTY to inform everyone else about it. Then, if folks ignore them, all too often the “enlightened ones” decide that they have to “educate” the infidels for their own good, even if they need to torture the “truth” into them.
If you want to believe that piece of toast is God, fine, I don’t care.
If you expect seventy-two virgins when you die, I wish you luck, but I don’t care.
If you think everything is the fault of the Jews, well I’d strongly disagree, but if you kept your madness to yourself, I wouldn’t care.
Try and understand this – I don’t know the truth – I don’t think you or anyone else does either, but I don’t care if you disagree.
As soon as you start talking about jihad, crusade, “final solutions”, and all the other forms of murderous “salesmanship” that “idealists” are prone to – I CARE.
Why waste our time and yours if the only truth is that there is no truth or answers …and no God or no nothing … that is the total problem that is and will destroy America and any or all forms of freedom or liberty… So do nothing and be nothing is a great answer … why have you not jumped off the bridge. That is just what is running and will destroy America , You just said ! think about it . only what I feel and think this second is a truth…. What do you want any GUN , if their is no truth… why ? you are LOST BIG. what do you need any weapons ,,,remember you SAID no truth!!!!
Did you read the rest of the thread, about ten or fifteen posts back, or just my last comment directly above? Do you even know what I’m talking about?
Is it your opinion that a belief in the big guy in the sky is necessary before a person can live a good and moral life?
Do you think a person HAS to have a religion to love their family, friends, and country?
Do you believe it is impossible to be a patriot and “real American” without a religion? If so, start crossing people like Thomas Jefferson and Mark Twain off your list of honored countrymen.
Your hysterical outburst is a perfect example of what I’ve been saying. You have basically dismissed, disowned, and condemned everyone who does not believe in the same gods, devils, angels, and demons that you sucked up with your mothers milk. I would wager you’ve never given a moments thought as to the truth or validity of your particular “faith”, yet you are ready to throw anyone who doesn’t share your superstition under the bus.
If I believed in a hell, I’d tell you to go there.
like I said no truth, no nothing. or what do you believe? I am always open to questions to help others. But how can you answer someone who is a VOID ? and yes GOD has the truth and it’s found in the Bible ( leave the churches out) and stop RUNNING AWAY FROM GOD… And yes he is real too. WE WILL NEVER KEEP OUR RIGHTS without GOD. America is LOST and going down the drain. And your guns will go too.
Tell you what, marine, I’m going to make one more stab at this, then I’m done.
You say I’m a “void”? I would maintain that I am, in point of fact, a kind and loving husband, a trustworthy friend, a capable musician, a scholar, and according to my friends, an all around pretty good guy.
My morals and principles are born out of a love, understanding and respect for my fellow man (and woman, and child, and animal), and I can’t see where accepting some myths created thousands of years ago by Bronze Age shepherds without question is a better way to arrive at a moral compass.
Do you only behave honorably because you fear the big guy’s wrath? That’s a pretty weak anchor for a meaningful life, if you ask me. Where would you be if you had been born into a non-religious family? Do you really believe that anyone who doesn’t share your faith is somehow doomed? What nonsense!
And , to repeat one last time, your very statements prove my point. You seem to believe that human beings who do not believe in your god or bible (a blood soaked horror of a book) are of no worth, not to be trusted or believed – certainly not worthy of equal respect. In fact, you imply that people like me are a danger to society. It’s not too long a leap from that kind of attitude to the cattle cars and the gas chambers. You, sir, and your ilk, are the danger.
Can you even articulate a reason for your opinion that someone who does not share your “faith” would find comprehensible?
I personally believe that humanity will never arrive at true peace and justice until we throw off the burden of ten thousand years of lies represented by religion.
The answer is so simple that it is hard for most to accept. The Bible (God) says all have sinned and fell short of the Glory of God. That means Me , you, everyone is a sinner because we can not keep all Gods laws. Have you never got mad or said a cuss word in your life . I killed and tried to kill people , that was my job as a Marine , DESTROY it. GOD is HOLY , so to keep from BURNING us all up in HELL on the LAST DAY. He planed a way to SAVE US and to change lives like even getting people off drugs . YOU see this is how I know God (Jesus Christ) is REAL. Only He can Change us ( me 360 %) you See I can see both sides of the coin, I was a real WILD CAT. Even the MARINES could not control me , I had such a strong will. Jesus Christ Loves you so much that He died to pay for you… WOW God came down , took on a human body to make a way. GET a Bible (KJV) the old one is best. God I see LOVES YOU , and before the foundation of all CREATION , HE KNEW all things. This is only the basic story. May GOD soften and open your heart to receive TRUTH.. GOD BLESS and KEEP YOU. the last marine out means I was the last guy out of North Viet Nam , My unit was over run many were killed and wounded , and we hid in the bush all night to stay alive… FIND JESUS , He is waiting . He has millions of Blessings for you..
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