It’s been a rough week in the Lone Star State. Last week there was a murder-suicide at an office in Dallas. Then on Monday, a knife-wielding attacker left one person dead and three wounded at the University of Texas at Austin (perhaps stopped by a person with a concealed handgun, although the traditional media is disputing this.) Then another murder-suicide at North Lake College followed by an incident last night in Arlington, where a murderer was definitely laid low by a Texan with a Concealed Handgun License.
James Jones, 48, got into a dispute with Cesar Perez, 37, the manager of the Zona Caliente sports bar in Arlington. Words were exchanged and things escalated to the point where Jones pulled a handgun, shooting Mr. Perez.
Witnessing this, an unidentified patron presented his own concealed firearm and brought down the bad guy on the spot. Unfortunately, Mr. Perez died on the scene. Fortunately, his murderer did as well.
According to Lt. Christopher Cook of the Arlington Police, “He made the decision to engage the shooter, fearing there would be other loss of life.” Police do not plan to file charges against the unidentified good guy with a gun.
Police say they are unsure of a motive at this point, although “man losing control of his temper” sounds plausible to me at this point. It’s also worth reminding everyone that while it’s important to have a plan to defend yourself — and the means to do it — at least as much thought and effort should be put into knowing how to de-escalate a confrontation.
In his first book, In the Gravest Extreme, Massad Ayoob wrote he would often carry a bit of extra cash along with his six shooter while prowling the urban jungle on his own, as a last-ditch way out of a violent situation. Hey, here’s $20. Go buy yourself a beer on me, and let’s both walk away peacefully.
I gather he caught hell for it, with people calling him all manner of variations on “coward” and accusing him of giving aid and comfort to the worst elements of society. Still…I imagine Mr. Perez’s loved ones might wish that they could’ve gotten away from the events of last night so cheaply, no?
Hey throw a lowlife a 20. Enable an azzwhole to try to shakedown some other hapless soul. I don’t-Bernard Getz is a hero…
pronounced gurtz, with a silent “r.” spelled goe because english doesn’t have an umlaut.
i like the title of this post. can a daily be found?
“umlaut” ? You watch your language.
Goetz, Goetz. Bernard Goetz. As in:
Bernard Goetz cocktail = 5 shots and a screwdriver
Bernard Goetz them all
Bernard Goetz peace and quiet on the 2 Train . . .
Kinda sounds like box-cutters on an airplane just a little southwest of there, hmm?. . . but I digress.
whatever bernie wants…
but i digest.
you mean Guts?
My responsibilities are to look out for me and mine, so deflecting a threat is perfectly acceptable. It’s not glamorous, and doing more is certainly better, but it would be foolhardy to expect others to rise above that minimum standard.
it’s an example retard not a general rule. perez was the manager of the sports bar , this was probably something to do with the customer(jones) not happy with the bar (probably drunk). what if he had offered him a discount for another night, or knocked 10% off the night’s bill to de escalate the situation. maybe he’d be alive , maybe not.
Thought:
If you’re carrying in NYC or other urban area with leftish politicians (legally or not) and you shoot someone in perfectly legitimate self-defense, there’s still a good chance that police and prosecutors are still going to do everything in their power to make you suffer and put you behind bars.
Worth $20 for a shot at avoiding that?
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, every case is different, just that this is something to consider, and some situations leave you with a choice between two bad outcomes, and you have to pick the one that is least worst. In seconds.
It helps to have already thought through plans A, B, C, and D…..
[ETA: I’m **not** saying this would’ve worked in this situation, either, as the facts are sparse.]
Bernard got put on trial for his life and though he escaped he was then crushed by a civil litigation and left penniless.
Good luck with that ‘hero’ thing.
All options should be available. In this particular situation, Mr. Perez may or may not have benefitted from the deescalation strategy. I’m just glad someone had the foresight and courage to end the threat. It’s too bad that he claimed one victim.
I’m not above throwing a bit of cash at someone who needs to cool off – but I’m cheap, he’ll only get a ten out of me.
Mind you- passing afew bucks to a hothead is not at all the same thing as handing my wallet over to a mugger, don’t bother trying to equate the two.
There are various themes on the old trick. I know some people in DC and NYC who carry a decoy wallet with a couple of ones, some play money, and useless cards. I know another person who carries a 20 wrapped around a wad of newspaper to make it look like a fat roll. Either one, hand it or better toss it down, and bug out as soon as the robber goes for it. Of course, even better if also have pepper spray, a knife, and a firearm in case they are better in a given situation. Every situation is different, so the more options the better.
Yep, the more options one has, the greater the chance of an optimal outcome.
If you can’t end a violent confrontation violently, give them a $20 so that your dead body can later be charged with suspected solicitation.
What if they give you a $20?
Having read Ayoob’s book where he suggested that, he was clear that the money toss happens *before* the confrontation becomes violent.
If someone tossed me a $20? It’d probably take it if I could without turning my back on them. Money is useful stuff.
Yes, re: Ayoob. If that was unclear from my text, apologies.
I found it pretty clear.
Ayoob has a great point that I think we would be wise to consider. In a fight, anything can happen – as true for a gun fight as a fistfight. If you have those who care about you, are they better off if the other guy rolls a natural 20? I imagine more than a few grieving spouses would have traded $20 for the lost wager. You aren’t giving up everything, just giving them a chance to walk away.
And if they are still aggressive? You’ve already established that you’re going to pocket for money, reducing your threat to them and giving you that extra half second on the draw.
Gee, willikers, I guess people can actually make responsible decisions with firearms inside a bar. Go figure.
Well, half of the guys with guns in this story did, anyway.
Don’t stand around waiting for the NASCAR wreck of escalation, tell the derps to ‘take-it-outside’ of “get a room’ and you MIGHT trigger in their heads that the confrontation is starting to look serious to outsiders.
Don’t break up a gun-fight with a gun, that you were too scared to interject on when it was a yelling / pushing match.
You weren’t there, so you don’t know how quickly it escalated, or what all steps and when the good guy took. These things can spin out of control extremely quickly. For all you know, the guy was in the restroom or outside making a call during the altercation’s build-up.
Let’s assume it was a yelling/pushing match, for a minute. OK, that’s mutual. You can disengage from that, or attempt to do so. If you don’t, then Texas law says you consented to the exchange. That doesn’t make it legal; you’re still going down for Disorderly Conduct, at a minimum.
What it does do, though, is deprive you of the right later on to claim self-defense, because you consented to the exchange. Now, if the participants themselves are committing a crime, and neither can lawfully claim self-defense, then by what legal authority may a bystander step in and threaten/use deadly force? None.
Really, it’s probably better not to get involved at all. It isn’t your fight and you’re apt to get shot, stabbed, or popped in the mouth for butting in. Better just to call the cops, announce that you’ve done so, pay your bill, and get the hell out of there.
Uh, why? Two guys can’t decide to slug it out? It’s unwise, I wouldn’t do it, but it’s a whole different story than murder. Believe it or not, plenty of guys punch each other every day without starting shooting. If you start interfering in every low-level conflict you better bring your bat-suit.
Don t wait for goverment fight back !
So the white guy who went after the brown guy is a murderer. If the “murderer” had been another color people hear would be whining that he has to be blm or Muslim. A white asshole is just a murderer. Meanwhile in Houston a white supremacist dumpster supporter threatens to “kill a n—-r and then goes after a black man with a knife. But he’s just a murderer. Idiot bigots.
So says the bigot.
You’re the one that injected colors and races and religions into an otherwise non-specific article and string of comments. I’m pretty sure that makes you the bigot Horace. I thought the objective was to move into an era where color/race/religion/sex etc just didn’t matter and people of all kinds were treated for the person they are, not via these various labels. I guess not.
“So the white guy who went after the brown guy is a murderer”
What makes you think any of the people involved were white? We have Mr. Perez’s photo, and he is Hispanic, but that’s it.
“Massad Ayoob wrote he would often carry a bit of extra cash along with his six shooter while prowling the urban jungle on his own, as a last-ditch way out of a violent situation.”
This was common practice in New York City during the worst of the crime wave during the 60s and 70s.
It was called “Mugger Money,” and you were always sure to carry a double sawbuck in your wallet so the mugger wouldn’t get too pissed and cut you because you were broke.
Sounds like the CCW guy did not stop further shooting, but added to the body count by shooting the perp because it sounds like the perp only had a beef with the bar owner and not the patrons. Bad example of CCW saving the day
Apparently law enforcement actually on the scene thinks otherwise, as they did not only let him go, but did not charge him for having a gun in a bar, a crime in and of itself.
As I understand it, it was a restaurant that also had a bar in it. They’re common here in Texas.
I also understand that the restaurant had a “blue label sign” which forbade the presence of an armed CC patron who did not have a license for the weapon.
That’s how it was legal.
Maybe, maybe not. Might have started as an issue between the two, but once he flipped out no telling what else he would do, but darn sure of what he’s capable of…depending on so many variables I might or might not want to see what he’ll do next and I can’t fault the ccw for making a difficult decision.
You’re an idiot, but congratulations on having an opinion.
So… you think that if you watch someone shoot a man down in front of you- murder- he’s no longer a threat because the victim is bleeding out?
It’s a good thing we got enough lawyers in this country because you sure ain’t one of em
Very sad the victim died. I’m glad the tax payer was saved when the bad guy also died.
“(perhaps stopped by a person with a concealed handgun, although the traditional media is disputing this.)”
Probably best to let that little bit of “fake news” die. There were dozens of witnesses around during the stabbing spree, and nobody has said anything about a non-cop with a gun being involved. It would be nice if it were true, but the only evidence appears to be some anonymous screenshot that anyone could fake up in about three minutes.
The escalation of fighting words leading to violence, particularly in a public establishment where management is one of the involved parties, makes for an awfully sticky situation for innocent bystanders. Knowing nothing beyond the moment of the shooting, the legally carrying person who engaged the other had to decide the other was clearly still a threat to everyone else in the restaurant, as demonstrated by his willingness to commit murder in full view of witnesses. Details are lacking, whether the good guy had opportunity to “talk down” the shooter before firing; I’d guess the shooter was locked into his rage and his weapon was ready to take on any challengers at that moment.
As a hypothetical to ponder – suppose an off-duty armed LEO out of uniform had just entered the scene as a customer, the moment after the manager was down but while both the shooter and CCW were still armed and facing off. Who does he see as a threat, before and after the CCW takes down the shooter? How does he enter the equation, and how many milliseconds will he allow the CCW to drop his gun before shooting him?
Forgotten or conveniently overshadowed by the gunslinger tales are the numbers chalked up to murder-suicides, reflecting our failed mental health system, and particularly involving military.
“We know that the decision to end one’s life is often spontaneous — that’s why eliminating easy access to firearms during a mental health crisis is so important.” – retired Gen. Peter Chiarelli quoted in a different thread in this forum.
This is a serious issue, which sober folks of all camps need to face. Blindly espousing rights to weapons that end up in the hands of suicidal holders (fact: about 2/3 of the approx. 33,000 gun deaths each year are suicides), a great number of whom come from military ranks, is a crime to society. Even the “domestic terror” incidents here usually involve marginalized persons whose mental health seems questionable. Posers here ready to go all Rambo on street scum need to consider friends and family who might have ended up like those, especially in middle America where the new drug epidemic is ravaging God-fearing folks of all stripes. Lack of empathy for others seems to be the real new epidemic in the U.S.
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