A friend of mine had a defensive gun use (DGU) a few days ago. Not the kind you see reported in the news, but a DGU nonetheless. He’d parked a bike near the front door of his home, affixed to a metal chair with a decent cable lock. His dog started to bark at the door, in the middle of the day, during the week. There was no knock or doorbell ring.
My friend accessed his house gun, a S&W N-frame model 28 he’d converted to .45 ACP. The security door was locked. He opened the inner door with his left hand, the revolver in his right. In the entryway stood a 16 to 18-year-old young man with a shaved head and tattoos down his neck. My friend hadn’t seen him in the neighborhood before.
The young man was studying the bike, the lock, and the chair. My friend held the revolver in the attitude shown in the picture above. You do not see more of him because he wishes to remain anonymous. In the actual event, he was in the doorway, visible through the locked security door.
In fluent Spanish, he asked, “May I help you?”
The tattooed youth looked up. He didn’t say anything. My friend said that he then did a very credible 100 yard dash. My friend did not pursue. There was no reason to do so.
He never pointed the pistol at the youth. He never threatened anyone. He never reported the incident to police. What was there to report? No crime had been committed, except perhaps trespassing.
In Arizona, you are allowed to threaten deadly force to prevent trespassing. As the young man immediately left the property, it’s unlikely a judge or jury would convict him of trespassing. My friend had only asked him if he needed help.
This is a good approximation of the “typical” DGU. No shots fired. The mere presence of the firearm defused the situation. If no firearm were present, the youth might have been emboldened to further action. As it was, there was no physical confrontation. It appears that a guilty conscience (or the sight of Springfield’s finest) was sufficient to command flight.
It’s not hard to believe that such incidents occur hundreds of thousand of times a year, as noted by the CDC in 2013 (pdf):
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
There is no incentive — actually a fairly strong disincentive — to report this kind of non-newsworthy incident. In fact, there’s a small but real potential that involving authorities would bring trouble down on the homeowner. Case closed.
©2016 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Gun Watch
As in, “Ayuda te get your ass out of here?”
Correcto,
Si, el puede
or
vete a la chingada
Made my morning, amigo.
Now I’ll just go get something to wipe up my coffee.
About 30 years ago I lived in a ground floor apartment. One evening I heard some sort of strange noise behind the building. I walked into the back bedroom with my 1911 to see a teenager testing window latches. I waited until he tried mine. As he shook the latch he looked into the muzzle of my .45.
I’m pretty sure he set an unofficial.land speed record running away.
How many “DGUs” are like that?
The VAST majority, I have to assume.
I HATE to call the local po-leece. They act like I’m the criminal for bothering their donut & coffee addiction. This was handled well except I hope the wayward spanglish yout’ doesn’t come back lookin’ to boost that gat…
Only an idiot invites criminals into their home.
Look what happened to this couple when they made the mistake of dialing Criminals-R-US, I mean 9-1-1:
https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/07/23/south-carolina-deputy-threatened-to-arrest-woman-and-her-boyfriend-if-she-refused-to-perform-oral-sex-on-him/
“There is no incentive […] to report this kind of non-newsworthy incident”
What about the potential for this almost-crim to maybe call 911 himself and report ‘being threatened with a firearm’ or something like this?
In most cases whoever it is that calls 911 first is kind of assumed to be the good guy, and the other party the one that did a bad-thing. Right or wrong, it is what it is.
Wouldn’t it be better to call and report this – that you had to deploy and that you suspected this guy was looking for something to rob?
Anyway, I am not saying that this is what I would do necessarily, but I would be thinking about it.
You make a good point, except in this case there wasn’t a street confrontation where the first call wins. If the little sh!t reported anything to the cops, he would also have to ‘splain what he was doing at Dean’s friend’s house — and I don’t think he would want to have that conversation with the police.
That’s my take on it, too. Only thing I could possibly add is that anyone fitting that description and engaging in that behavior probably already has warrants out for him for something already. Could be unpaid tickets, unpaid child support, or he might have illegal materials on or in him at the time. There are a lot potential reason weighing against him initiating that call.
I’d rather have both hands free, is the burglar going to use his cell phone or ask to borrow yours.
If he sees you, with or without a gun if he does not start backing up or running immediately, you have a problem.
If I was holding a burglar at gun point I think I would toss him the phone and have him dial 911, you need 100% of your attention on him and he may very well not be alone, you need all your mental capacity focused on self preservation.
This is an excellent article to actually practice mentally what you should do in the event this does happen to you.
I would hate to shoot a Jehovah’s Witness in a panic.
There’s always the ever popular “man with a gun” call.
I don’t know officer. I was on my way to visit a friend and got a little lost. I was on my way to the door to ask for directions when this crazy guy came to the door and asked me if I wanted to die. I don’t get it officer, maybe he doesn’t like Mexicans or something, I just thank God that he didn’t shoot me.
Yes sir, next time I’ll just call my friend for help.
No, I didn’t think about using the maps on my phone, that would be even easier. Sorry, I’m just a little shaken up right now.
I’m not calling the police unless I absolutely have to (shots fired, multiple witnesses, etc.). I know many around here disagree with this, but that’s my stance and I’m sticking to it. Like Ralph said, in this case the bad guy has to explain what he was doing on the gun owner’s porch. But out in public, if you scare a criminal off and they do decide to ‘report’ you to the police, first there’s a 98% chance they’ll never figure out you are in the first place. Contrast this with calling the cops and saying, ‘some dude tried to rob me so I pulled a gun and he ran away’ and see where that gets you. If you’re lucky it gets you a good solid night of questioning. Best to get your story straight just in case, but why report yourself for ‘brandishing’ a firearm?
I totally agree, calling the po-po is almost certain to make things worse, for any value of things and more important, any value of worse, including you not being able to go home to your family at the end of your shift.
I’m just making the point however that there are times where you ought to think defensively and while in this case I tend to agree with you that a call to 911 isn’t really needed there could be similar conditions where it is. I’m pretty sure it’s Andrew Branca who I saw make this point somewhere or other. Let’s say you are out walking on the beach and some dude comes up to you (no one else around) and has at you with a knife demanding money. You draw, dude runs off, all good.
Then the dude calls 911 and says he was threatened by a dude with a gun, gives your description and location – and you do not call. The fuzz will be out looking for an armed bandit and will find you most likely. At which point, had you not called in to 911, your story of ‘I was threatened’ won’t have much weight as they expect you to call them for help – and also to call them whenever you have to apply your second amendment. That is, whoever calls 911 first kind of becomes the winner, and you know nothing about this guy and whether or not he will call. Chances are indeed good that he will not make that call, but if he does you are screwed.
As to your beach scenario, if the bad guy has the audacity to call the cops on you and they do in fact locate you, you are probably in for a long night of questioning, but you’re hardly any more screwed than if you called and reported yourself for brandishing. A lot depends on your jurisdiction. But if you’re accusing him of robbery and he’s accusing you of brandishing and there are no witnesses, AND you’re carrying legally, it’s all a he said she said affair and a conviction is an extreme long shot (and any DA should know this). Aside from that, if there’s no witnesses you’re probably on a deserted stretch of beach, otherwise, if you’re carrying concealed how are the police going to find you. Then, in that situation I would find another place to be in the next 10 minutes, regardless of my innocence.
Like everything else in life it’s all a game of odds, but generally I like my odds better if I keep my mouth shut. But prepare for plan B just in case.
I don’t disagree with you at all – just that the ‘all depends on jurisdiction’ part ends up being highly variable. And the good/bad jurisdiction ratio is getting worser all the time. Long night of questioning, maybe a charge you have to fight, maybe loss of your gun rights… which maybe you can avoid by making that call – this is my point.
I really don’t want to be the guy that the fuzz are out looking for relying on the solution of not being there. This ends up making you look more like the guilty party. And when they look for someone, if they really want to find him, they often do.
It shouldn’t be this way.
911 is supposed to be for emergencies, and this definitely was Not. I would call the police, though. I would inform them that a criminal was in the area looking to steal a bike, then I would tell them about the interaction/confrontation between him and me. I’m sure the police officer on the phone would appreciate the heads-up, and congratulate me for the way I handled it.
yeah, you must not live in CA….
I do.
#slavestate
And that is key, location. If you are in a blue city or state, the police may likely lean toward the same anti-2nd amendment attitude of their political masters. Where I live, they respect the right of self defense. If something should happen, I consider them my backup. They often encourage carry from time to time. For example, one of our Sheriffs recently advised people not to hike in his county unless they were armed. But, as with most, police here would like people to understand the laws around the use of force and practice safe gun handling.
Yeah I’d like to know about the shithead trying to steal shit. Just call in a suspicious for his activity and leave it at that. Who knows it might help someone get their stuff back
I never reported my DGU, either.
Like this situation, the BG wasn’t looking for a fight and the presence of a smoke wagon quickly informed him a fight was highly possible…
So, he thought it best to move along. And I concurred.
Apparently a fight – to the death – wasn’t what he had in mind.
Me neither. But, it appeared I was more prepared to deal with one.
This is the one fundamental difference between a gun and say a baseball bat. It is universally understood that when you challenge a bad guy to a fight with a gun you are challenging said bad guy to a fight to the death. A fight you obviously have the upper hand in, seeing that you’re already holding a drawn gun. You are much, much more likely to have a bad guy take you up on your challenge if you’re holding a baseball bat.
Gov. Will, this is one refreshing observation I’ve not thought of. Thanks!
Gov, an old cop friend of my father’s (Chicago c. 1968) gave us this advice: If you are in a confrontation and all you have is a baton or a bat, always use the element of surprise. As you attack raise your left (or weak) arm for protection and then use your baton or bat to take out the BG’s kneecap or shin. He explained that it is amazing how many blows many people high on drugs or even adrenaline can take from a bat, even on the head, before going down or giving up, but a solid kneecap or shin hit will put them down first time every time.
Makes sense Cliff. It seems to me that it would be much harder for the bad guy to get his mitts on your bat if your holding him back with one hand and beating his legs as opposed to swinging at his upper body. Of course, if your swinging a bat at him he’s either armed with a weapon himself or you’re committing a felony.
My other observation about a bat (or golf club) as a defensive weapon is the sheer amount of physical exertion and violence you would need to muster within yourself to win that fight. Most people probably couldn’t do it.
Paranoid lunatic with a gun.
“Dgu” huh?, More like you just threatened a kid.
DGU are a MYTH!, All this guy did was threaten a child.
Too bad these morons don’t realize they’re 50x more like to off themselves or a loved one with their own gun than defend themselves with it.
Gun control works. Ask Japan, Ask Australia, Ask Europe. Mass shootings in these countries are rare; one incident in Germany or France doesn’t compare to the daily mass shootings that happen in the US everyday.
You’re not really a “free” country if you’re allowed to have a death rate higher than Somalia and a gun lobby that has control of congress.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ap-poll-support-grows-among-americans-stricter-gun-115108079.html?nhp=1
Americans support gun control.
Australia – one mass shooting and they banned assault weapons and tightened gun laws – not one mass shooting since.
But you people say criminals ignore gun laws, But where do you think they get the guns in the first place? They either buy them from someone or steal them. Limit the number of guns, and the number of guns available for criminals to either buy or steal will be sharply reduced. The NRA is opposed to gun control because they are controlled by their masters, the gun manufacturers. Every citizen should be allowed to own one gun for protection and one rifle for hunting, but only after they have passed background checks. A gun control program instituted in Australia resulted in lower homicide rates, and even more importantly, reduced accidental firearm deaths and suicide deaths.
You people are nothing but brainwashed slaves of the gun makers. It’s all about the money.
Just like the first amendment it’s open to modification. You can’t say anything you want anywhere you want. Technology has produced firearms that were not even imagined back when the Constitution was written and many of these have no business in the hands of everyday citizens. Just like you cannot own a grenade launcher or a nuclear bomb, you shouldn’t be allowed to own an assault weapon.
LOL
the survivors of several mass shooting in AUS will be surprised to learn this
Concerned American stick around for a while you might might learn something on this site
Stick around for a while? This dude has been here for years under various names; he never changes his writing style or memes.
I guess the child got the tattoos in grade school not prison.
LMAO
We fought more than a few wars to make sure we don’t have to give a crap what other countries think.
Japan and Europe don’t have a great human rights track record. Even England has been known to get a little rough with their “subjects”.
If you believe the “gun lobby” is the sole reason the 2nd amendment shines for the US and not for other countries then it is certainly money well spent on my part.
I don’t make guns, sell guns, profit from them financially. I do HAVE guns and the gun lobby represents ME. I often wish the gun lobby was a little more forward in its approach. But its certainly better than the government telling me what I NEED.
Long live the Republic. Maybe you can repatriate to one of the socialist dream cultures you mentioned. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. You will find they probably aren’t interested in having you join their little party.
Sure. Have a nice day.
I don’t usually engage trolls but do you suppose a few of the dead in Nice,Belgium or Munchen kinda’ wished they could defend their lives with something more than a rape whistle? Don’t know? Duh…
Just as a side note, I’m pretty sure that beach-front street in Nice was designated by the French government as a “Truck Free Zone”. How did that work out?
“Every citizen should be allowed to own one gun for protection and one rifle for hunting”
So much for 3 gun competitions…
Other than that you seemed to have summed up every single gun control argument in history in one post, kudos.
Now show us a pic of the gun free sign you have outside your house.
Not at all surprised that a progressive would side with the would-be bike thief. No normal “kid” is taught to steal another person’s property. Nice to know you believe in further free speech restrictions too, tyrant.
Izzat you T-rex?
Your famed Australian confiscation collected (by governments estimates) less then 20% of legal weapons. Of course it collected 0% of illegal weapons.
If you think those two numbers had an impact on mass murderers you’re an idiot.
So I was just about to comment on what the left would say in regards to the described activity, but “concerned” beat me to it. I’ll go ahead and say it though:
Dean, the left would condemn your friend for threatening another with a gun. What your friend should have done, was to not interfere with the trespasser’s activity and instead hide inside and call the police. After the bike is stolen, your friend can absorb the cost and fill out paperwork with the cops because what possibly would your friend rather do with his spare time.
And sure enough! Some weirdo chimed in and said that Dean’s friend was threatening a child, thereby aligning themselves with the tattooed shaved head trespassing individual examining the bike without permission (I.E. The would be robber).
Then begins with the usual coached talking points provided by diagrams from anti-gun organizations. Absolutely comical in a psychosis mentally ill sort of way.
Conversely, relational information may remedy and, at the same time, eliminate the requirement that branching is not tolerated within the dominance scope of a complex symbol. We have already seen that any associated supporting element is unspecified with respect to nondistinctness in the sense of distinctive feature theory. Presumably, the notion of level of grammaticalness cannot be arbitrary in a general convention regarding the forms of the grammar. This suggests that the systematic use of complex symbols is rather different from problems of phonemic and morphological analysis. It must be emphasized, once again, that a subset of English sentences interesting on quite independent grounds is not quite equivalent to the extended c-command discussed in connection with (34).
Beat me to it.
I Lol’d, JohnO. Thanks
An 18 to 20 year old with a shaven head and tattoos is a child? I’m 70 years old, 5’5″ tall and overweight at 165 pounds. A child is someone small enough for me to handle without resort to any kind of weapon. This prospective thief is no child. I suppose you think Michael Brown also was a child. Remember him? He was the 6’4″, 290 pound thug who shoplifted cigars and pushed around the diminutive store clerk for objecting to the theft.
A quick Google search reveals that Somalia has a death rate of 12 per 1,000, while the US has a death rate of 8…
Yes, but Liberal Troll of the Day was specifically referring to guns, not violent deaths in total. Also, it seems a little off to me that the U.S. death rate is 8 per 1,00. Over what time period? By what causes/means? Perhaps you meant to type 8 per 100,000? Please cite the post you found via Google for verification.
Your satirical parody of a gun control supporter is hilarious. Thank you for supporting our basic human right to own firearms.
As they say down south, bless your heart.
Because we’re too polite to say “your momma should have had an abortion”.
God bless Dixie.
Meds. You should get some, or maybe just take what you’ve already been prescribed.
You got some deep crazy going on in your melon. You’re like some kind of nut job that runs into a church to denounce God.
If you’re gonna be a troll, at least put forth some effort like 2Asux does.
Interesting post. I see you gave it some thought. Thank you for your input.
Please make sure you read some of TTAG’s other articles as well. “Charles C. W. Cooke: The AR-15 Is The “Musket of Our Time” ” is a little lengthy but is well written and an easy read. It also gives some good counterpoints to your comments.
Please keep an open mind.
The Liberal version of an open mind is actually an empty head.
I am SO using this………bumper sticker,
Thank you Cliff.
well, sooner or later, anyone willing to strip people of one the rights guaranteed by the amendments will try to strip others away as needed.
You willing to put on some shackles and go dig ditches or tend crops when the 13th goes bye bye? Pretty sure they won’t care about skin color either.
For myself, its all of them or war will be declared. I am willing to die defending our rights, you?
#slavestate
He’ll be shackled & digging ditches soon enough in a nation where we’d only be allowed one gun for defense and one for hunting; the regs & policies to do so would be so intrusive and labyrinthine, that practically everyone could be picked up at any given instant. We’re practically there already in his beloved slave states.
Not a bad attempt.
Too long, not really focused, and – this is important – you forgot to mention gun owners’ genitals. But otherwise you hit most of the usual points.
B+.
Need some dressing for that word salad? It’s really missing something to tie it together.
This message brought to you by “Canards Я Us.”
How long did you have to study to get so stupid?
Did 2asux change their name
“Did 2asux change their name”
I *highly* doubt that is 2Asux.
This fvckwit is just annother TTAG lazy clip-n-paste wannabe.
2Asux actually puts in the time and effort to actually *debate* his position…
Not in my experience. I do agree though, he is a better class of troll. He’s like a super-troll, made up of the stuff of lesser trolls.
Except “2A” is one of us. He is a good guy, who spends far more time than I have, to craft arguments that POTG are meant to dissemble and negate. As a learning experience.
He’s a living teaching tool, performing an essential, yet rather thankless job. He’s trying to teach folks to argue better. I wish posters really understood this, and reacted accordingly, as opposed to reacting to the above silly shit-poster.
I’ve engaged 2A a few times, he’s told me what he does and why he does it. Go look for yourselves.
2A valuably pointed out where our game was weak and how to improve it.
This sucker just regurgitates tired arguments and ad-homonyms, and is not in the least worth the minor trouble to engage.
Really? Maybe I am getting my trolls mixed up because I stopped responding to 2asux after a while back engaging with him, having every point I made ignored, and with him doing nothing but calling on boilerplate talking points, distraction and changing topics, and of course the standard name calling ‘you r a murderous terroroist’.
I will give him another try… maybe I am mixing him up with one of the other idiots.
Hmmn.
It has been hypothesized that there are two different people that post under the handle 2Asux.
This sems reasonable ss the podting styles sre very different. Wish we could get ip address verification on that.
If so, one is clearly s 16V describes and the other is clearly a troll.
The second is rarer…but posts aggressively when active.
It is entirely possible/likely JR is on to something – there may, in fact, be more than one “2Asux”.
All I know is that in my conversing with the “real” one, he was truly POTG…
Near as I can tell, the (as of this writing) 3 comments here are this commenter’s first foray into this site.
There is someone that’s been going around spoofing other people’s names, but this is not him either, to the best of my knowledge.
Matt, do the people who are the controlling authority of TTAG have the ability see an originating IP addy?
Yes, that’s how I knew the guy using your name in that other post (and having a conversation with himself under the name “Today”) wasn’t you. I looked at your IP and it was pretty consistent over the last couple dozen comments, and it was different than his over his last couple dozen comments, so I knew it wasn’t you.
It’s not foolproof, because IP’s can vary due to mobile posting and such, but it’s good enough for most of the time.
These trolls make this site so much more fun!
I find troll bashing keeps us on our toes and is great entertainment. Been a reader almost daily since, oh, winter 2010? when Ole Mikey B Numbers swarmed regularly. This one is nothing more than a Copypasta Wizard. Nothing to see here..,
Compared to these new guys MikeyB was downright reasonable. And he would go toe to toe with his arguments, not just copy/paste and run.
yup, almost miss ole MikeyB numbers.
Tho, we are still here and he is not. so he either gave up the good fight, or converted and changed his name. You can fight ideals all day long but reality always wins.
Mikeb2000 was an expat throwing stones at us from Italy. He even had a website. I left a few dings on his page at the time
Yeah because anyone who posts long posts that debunk your claims and posts links that defunct your beliefs count as trolling?
Well color me blue and call me hicklicken…
I don’t think the founders had any idea their would be semi automatic and automatic weapons one day and if they’d seen what their right had become they’d change their mind real fast.
Australia has had no mass killings after PM john howard passed laws in 96 after the port arthur attack which ended the decades of gun violence Australia suffered.
I wonder if nutbars mall ninjas like you really believes that the govt is afraid of your AR15. if they wanted you dead it would be a done deal. If the govt wants you dead, it is a completely trivial matter. Your AR doesn’t change any of that.
Yeah, stupid. Every citizen should have hand grenades, grenade launchers, mortars, Howitzers, military grade explosives and detonators, anti-tank missiles, guided bombs, aircraft carriers and attack aircraft, M1 tanks, armored personnel carriers, Bangalore torpedoes, land and water mines, nuclear warheads, etcetera. Quit proving you all have all the intelligence of a cow patty and don’t post any more.
The bottom line on this is that gun idiots who believe the NRA are believing aphorisms that are meant for stupid people (the NRA demographics are that the average NRA member has less than a high school diploma, is a white working class male and largely from rural areas with poor schools). People who care so much about guns are people who have their identity and self-esteem tied up to the guns they own. Since that is a deeply pathetic basis for self-esteem, these are some of this most marginal people in the US. These are fat, stupid, nonathletic, ugly, uneducated trailer park trash raising kids that are mirror images of themselves.
The NRA is a lobbying group for gun manufacturers. They couldn’t care less about your rights. They just want to make as much money as possible for their clients the gun companies.
The NRA is at its lowest membership in history. Common sense gun laws aren’t coming to take your precious penis replacements. The NRA is for one thing and one thing only – pushing gun sales. Who do you think screams that the government is coming for your guns?? It’s the NRA. Every time. Get some facts people.
All the arguments you people place have no basis in reality.
Thanks for that burst of laughter. Debunked??? Where??
He’s just back because somebody reminded him about the penis reference he left out. Otherwise, seems like just a repeat.
How much are Shameless Tw@ts (Shannon Watts), Diane Rodham aka “Hillary Clinton”, the diminutive despot Michael Bloom-BOIG and ventriloquist’s dummy Garbly Giffords paying you to post here?
Why does your party’s Presidential candidate “need” an “alias”? Does she have criminal convictions under her “real” name?
Freewill is awesome!
False.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia
> Australia has had no mass killings after PM john howard passed laws in 96
False: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia
“I don’t think the founders had any idea their would be semi automatic and automatic weapons one day…”
*WRONG*, numb-nuts.
This 20-round semi-auto Girardoni air rifle was made in *1779* and used by Lewis and Clark.
Obviously the founding fathers were apposed of a 10-round magazine limit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqFyKh-rUI
*snicker*
http://youtu.be/eeOJ9GnKgPI
When the debate is lost slander is the tool of the loser – paraphrased Plato
This guy is just looking to get us riled up so that he can feel good about him self. I’d bet he lives in one our newly minted constitutional carry states with the amount of rage he has built up in himself.
Not only were the founders intelligent men, inventors and scholars and businessmen who no doubt knew that technology would grow and could not possibly have thought that only muskets would ever be available to we-the-people, they specifically knew about semi-auto firearms as there was a dude trying to sell a design to them.
http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/heller-gun-control-debate.htm
So, you may think you are right, but you would be mistaken, as you are not. Right that is. You are wrong.
Yet the writer simultaneously advocates for civilian disarmament. Textbook example of cognitive dissonance.
Not just dissonance; he/she/it is suffering from a complete cognitive disconnect.
Stop it! You are giving me PBA here.
http://youtu.be/isRuieLDK80
Never mind the complete unsubstantiated assertion on NRA demographics which the writer couldn’t possibly know, I wonder what the average education level is of all members of the Democratic Party.
That’s going to leave a mark!
What…..Colion Noir isn’t real?
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
🙂
I very much appreciate the humour of your continued satirical parody of a gun control supporter.
False. But this is definitely repeated by commenters on blogs and opinion pieces on salon.
http://money.cnn.com/news/cnnmoney-investigates/nra-funding-donors/
The NRA is at its highest membership and financial gain in the history of the NRA. (See link above).
We know you hate us and our guns. It’s ok – we accept that. You have opinions and you want to force those on us. We are not trying to take anything away from you – it is you who are trying to take something from us. You hate us, you hate our guns, you even hate the places we live. Right?
False. See link above.
Who do you think screams that the government is coming for your guns?? It’s the NRA. Every time. Get some facts people.
You get some facts. In states like CA, MA, NY, CT, etc, people with heirlooms that you call “assault weapons” can’t pass those down to their children or family members. CO and CA have magazine bans for certain sizes. Sounds like they are taking their guns to me.
What are you talking about? Virtually everything you just said was a lie.
Wow. This one is going to blow a gasket and rid the world of one more pseudo-intellectual leftist elite.
I think recent events indicate that police agencies anD the government in general is very afraid of a man with a rifle, big truck, or bomb vest. Of the three, I’ll take the rifle but there may be just as many trucks in the US. Better get to ranting about them. Ban UHaul now.
LMAO
“Yeah, stupid. Every citizen should have hand grenades, grenade launchers, mortars, Howitzers, military grade explosives and detonators, anti-tank missiles, guided bombs, aircraft carriers and attack aircraft, M1 tanks, armored personnel carriers, Bangalore torpedoes, land and water mines, nuclear warheads, etcetera. Quit proving you all have all the intelligence of a cow patty and don’t post any more.”
Well let’s dispense with the ad hominem, since you are the one who is rather ignorant of facts – but that’s a consistent throughout your posts, so it’s not surprising.
Hand grenades, grenade launchers, mortars, Howitzers, “military-grade” (whatever the fuck that means) explosives, detonators, a whole bunch of varieties of tanks, APCs, MaDeuces, “attack aircraft” (Warbirds?) and a host of other “scary” things are ALL currently legally owned by many tens of thousands of Americans – I could complete that entire shopping list by pulling a few friends together for a BBQ.
Nukes are expensive, as is their care and feeding. ‘Bangalore Torpedoes’ are just a staged explosive designed to penetrate multiple layers. If I need one, I can build one with off-the-shelf unregulated hardware and chems.
Do try again.
We now have a counterpoint to Godwin’s Law regarding Nazis – TTAG’s Troll Law!
In any comment section where an Anti-2A Troll chimes in the Troll will ALWAYS at some point claim that all firearms owners have a small penis.
And when an anti admits that penises (penii?) frighten him, we have evidence of a disturbed mind. Men who are afraid of the adult penis tend toward pedophilia and “tea boys.”
Cliff’s law
Really? Australia is the utopia we should all dream to be. Or…
Snowtown Murders (1992-99) – 12 bodies spread over 9 years, found in acid baths and rainwater tanks
Childers Palace (2000) – 15 backpackers killed in an arson attack
Monash University (2002) – 2 killed, 5 injured during a shooting spree
Churchill Fire (2009) – 10 people killed in an arson attack
Lin Family murders (2009) – 5 people killed with a blunt instrument
Hectorville (2011) – 3 dead, 3 wounded by someone shooting into a neighboring property
Quakers Hill Nursing Home (2012) – 11 people killed in an arson attack
Hunt family murders (2014) – 5 people killed in a murder/suicide shooting
Logan family shooting (2014) – 3 people killed by their neighbor
Sydney Siege (2015) – 3 dead, 4 wounded by a lone gunman in a hostage scene
Cairns child killings (2014) – 8 (children) dead, 1 injured (perpetrator) in a stabbing spree
Not all of these happened with guns. Those that had guns used them. Those that didn’t found other ways. That sounds like an argument for gun control, for removing them, but it’s not. Because you will never be able to get rid of all of them, or even a significant enough percentage to make a difference. And even if you do, people will find other ways to act out their crazy.
I see we’re long learning path.
Never, never try to use “facts” that are both easily verifiable as false, and which aren’t easy to believe in.
You’ve lost ground, I’m afraid. C.
Also, to all that stuff about the NRA.
I am the NRA.
…and I am none of those things you listed in your bullshit ad hominem…
– fat (not really)
– stupid (nope)
– nonathletic (you came closest on this one, but I’m trying, OK? I’ve got a half marathon coming up in Nov., my 5th in 4 years)
– ugly (I ain’t a 10, but I don’t have a third eye)
– uneducated (wrong, details immaterial)
– trailer park trash (apartment with a view (http://prntscr.com/bwugyp))
– raising kids (none that I’m aware of, but I wave every time I pass an orphanage, just in case)
– that are mirror images of themselves (see the last point, but like most parents, I assume I’d try to keep them from making the same mistakes I made)
Anything else?
I am so relived you finally got here.
I was getting worried Hillary had forsaken me.
Explain to these people, that the faster we reinstate the Monarchy the better off we will all be.
As evil as it was to frighten that poor child with a fully automatic assault revolver purchased without a background check or waiting period.
At least that guy didn’t have any ETCETERA. I mean I do not even want to think about what could have happened to that poor suspected bike thief, if that stupid home owner had gotten any ETCETERA at a gun show!! How many imaginary crimes, do we have to dream up before they finally ban ETCETER?? It is the worst weapon of war known to man. It is a billion times more deadly than even those high powered assault weapon rounds they have in those ammunition magazine clip things with the shoulder thingy that goes up! ETCETER is what killed Petey, my best imaginary friend. Remember when Petey got killed way past dead super duper special dead? It was in Bosnia. Petey was protecting Hillary and Chelsea from the hoard of snipe shooting at them on the tarmac. Everyone of those snipe were concealed carrying AK15’s and AR 47’s with high capacity clip magazines stripes full of ETCETERA . Why don’t these silly people just submit?? Tell them to do it for all the ETCETERA victims yet to die.
No reason to try and think about anything, I mean that’s way we have Government for right?
New! From K-Tel! The Greatest Hits by the “Straw Men!”
The one thing I would have done differently would have been to keep my gun out of sight behind my back unless the trespasser tried to break in. That way, the gun wouldn’t become an issue unless it was needed for self defense.
I suppose Dean’s friend could have watched him steal the bike, videoing him as he did it, and immediately reported the theft to 911 with a complete description. That would jam up the thief, maybe preventing a loss for someone else. However, success would depend on the police making a prompt and extensive search for him. Failure would mean loss of the bike.
“However, success would depend on the police making a prompt and extensive search for him”
Ha, ha ha haa, haa ha ha, ha ha.
You’d be lucky to get them to write up a report. Hell, you’d actually be lucky to get them to even show up at all.
They wouldn’t get your bike back unless you told them it was made out of doughnuts. Or maybe that your registered handgun was stuck to it, then maybe the’yd go look for it.
They got four detectives working the case! They got us working in shifts!
This would be a good place to opt for open carry. Not sure what states ban open carry on your own front porch, but you’re certainly not brandishing if the weapon never leaves your holster. Anyway, I’m guessing the notion of getting shot is more of a deterrent than getting caught by the police. Especially for something as trivial as stealing a bicycle.
Governor gets it.
One day a man knocked on my door. I always home carry … and that particular day was “open-carry” day. Before answering the door, I quickly scanned the area through the glass. Then I answered the door and immediately scanned said stranger … and scanned the surrounding area again. All this scanning (after opening the door) took all of one second and included ignoring the identification tag hanging around his neck that he displayed for me. He immediately noticed my scanning and open-carry handgun and asked, “What police department do you work for?” I explained that I am not a cop, but rather a prepared member of my community. He went on to explain that he was booking appointments to demonstrate high-end vacuum cleaners and even showed me his list of my neighbors who had signed up for appointments. I politely declined and wished him to have a nice day, at which point he went on his way.
Guess what? Neither that man nor his crew ever showed up to our neighborhood to demonstrate any vacuum cleaners to anyone. Here is my opinion of why:
(a) In my experience only criminals and police officers promptly notice a handgun on your hip. This guy was obviously not law enforcement, which leaves …
(b) If you were a criminal and wanted to case multiple houses, demonstrating vacuum cleaners inside people’s homes would be an outstanding ruse.
(c) If you were a criminal who was using vacuum cleaner demonstrations as a ruse to case homes, and an armed neighbor obviously checked you out, checked out your panel van, and declined, you might be extremely concerned that this home owner just “made” you.
(d) If you were extremely concerned that someone “made” you, you would split and not come back.
It would be one thing if I had asked for an appointment and they never showed up to my home but showed up to all the other homes. That would lead me to believe that they were legitimately trying to demonstrate and sell vacuum cleaners and simply was afraid of my armed status. However, they bailed on all of the appointments. No rational sales person would bail on an entire neighborhood simply because one homeowner was armed.
I have a slightly different angle, but it centers around the notion that most home invasions probably start with a ruse to get you to open the door willingly. I keep a 6″ stainless GP 100 within reach at all times (unless I have company in which case I conceal carry in the same manner as I go about daily). Other weapons are available as necessary. The beauty of a handgun for home defense is that it can easily be concealed so as not to alarm an innocent caller, but in the case of a home invasion will just happen to be in your hand at the moment it’s needed. The GP also has the added intimidation value as being a big effing revolv er should it be pointed between your eyes. The only time my home carry decision has come into play is one time when a Chinese delivery guy who honestly got the wrong address rang my doorbell at about midnight one night. He kept his drawers clean and I kept the GP behind my back.
In this particular case though, walking out with a holstered weapon in plain view would have probably been the best option.
“In my experience only criminals and police officers promptly notice a handgun on your hip.”
POTG do as well. Or we BETTER, anyway.
I was in the mall last week, in a “gun free zone.” In CO, signs do not have the force of law. I saw a guy walking past with a janitor type key collection on his right hip. As I saw the keys, I also saw a black clip under his belt, and as I looked above the clip I could see a full size semi-auto printing under his shirt. A blind man could follow that breadcrumb trail.
Paul Blart pulled up on his Segway (God, I wish I were kidding! A Segway!), asked the guy about the city described on his shirt, waved and rode off. Never saw the print.
Simon Malls are gun free zones. http://www.simon.com/mall
But that’s where the wife wants to shop. Concealed means concealed, and obviously security is not intelligent enough to be trusted…
Dean, tell your friends to move to the Foothills. I leave stuff out all night. Haven’t locked my car since I’ve been here – ten years!
Unfortunately, this occurred in the Foothills. Nice neighborhood.
‘…a S&W N-frame model 28 he’d converted to .45 ACP.’
Why?!?
I just read about that earlier today. Since the 28 is the “utility” version of the 27, people didn’t think twice about modifying them.
Yes, being a Ruger revolver fan I had to look it up. I was assuming it was a .45LC but it seems it was in actuality an answer to the Colt Trooper – in .357 magnum. So we’re talking about both a cylinder and a barrel switch. All to change the revolv er to take a round with inferior ballistics.
Why not. Probably couldn’t afford a 25-2. Smith didn’t used to make a 45 acp revolver with less than a.six inch barrel.
Model 28s were the most converted smith in 60s and 70s.
The only conceivable reason I can think of for converting it in the first place is for decreasing recoil, but you could shoot .38 special, .38 special +p, or any of the .357 ‘carry’ loads. The only way this makes sense to me is if your uncle died and left you his stockpile of 60,000 rounds of .45acp.
45 acp HP are pretty effective and softer recoiling than full house 357. Also has less muzzle flash. Reloading with the moon clips is thought by many to be a plus
Not my cup of tea but 45 Hydra shows were rated as well as 357 125 HP back in the day. My first carry was a Model 28. I moved on to K frames. Not as comfortable but much faster on target.
I imagine his biggest reason was he liked the round and wanted to have something few others have. Good enough for me.
Good points. Hadn’t thought of the moon clips. If there’s one thing I’d change on my .357s it would be to load them with half moon clips. (Technically it can be done, but involves shaving the cylinder and using extra thin clips, so not something I actually plan on doing.) Besides flash the .45acp is probably not quite as loud as a .357, although I seem to recall them having a pretty loud bark as well. Still, it had to double the cost of the re volver so unless you just really wanted something nobody else has I’d just buy a .357 and a 1911. Personally.
I would have called the cops, given them a full description.
Of course, I live in a neighborhood where the police actually give a shit. Your mileage may vary.
However, this ex-con may have been wanted for other, more serious crimes. The police would have a better chance of catching him if you can narrow things down for them.
In this case, the gun display worked, only because the disturbance making the dog bark was a wannabe thief and not Girl Scouts selling cookies. I would not have shown a gun in hand unless/until I had reason to believe it might be needed.
Who was that troll that was around here a while ago? Wasn’t his handle something like Willie Lunchmeat? Maybe he’s back as “concernedamerican.”
I have to say, I would not have shown the gun in this situation. I think it was kind of disingenuous to say, “May I help you?” when brandishing and I also think regardless of Arizona’s laws, the kid or his parents could have still called the police with an embellished story and there could have been a hassle. Also, showing a gun through a steel mesh door is strange. How is the kid going to threaten the homeowner through the door and then what was the homeowner going to do? Was he going to shoot through the door?
I would have kept the gun hidden and taken the kid’s picture with my cell phone. When he asked why I did that, I would have said it’s in case that bike ever winds up missing.
I do not consider this a good example of a DGU. I think it was an over-reaction. There was no real threat. Just MHO.
I am leaning to agree with JohnF.
JohnF, Here’s the complication – you are thinking like a normal civilized human being, and interacting with offspring of same. Who wouldn’t be scoping out your bike, let alone on your porch.
The reality is that in a neighborhood where a 12 yo on your porch to steal a bike, just might be armed and shoot you – so you would be a complete idiot if you didn’t have your weapon in hand and ready to aim/fire. There’s plenty of black kids that will kill you at that age (facts and statistics not racism) so situational awareness dictated his response.
He didn’t shoot the kid, or even draw-down on him.
“you are thinking like a normal civilized human being, and interacting with offspring of same”
Much like our State Department believes that they are negotiating with people Just Like Us, with the same values and worldview, the same goals for Whirled Peas.
That’s because I am a normal, civilized human being and I choose to act like one. But I didn’t get to 64 by accident. I would have had cover and the gun in my hand. I just wouldn’t have shown the weapon. Brandishing in most states requires the same justification as self-defense and there was no justification here. If AZ wants to allow people to wave guns at teenagers to make them “get off my lawn” so be it. I don’t show a gun unless I am prepared and justified to use it. Even if the kid were stealing the bike, I would not have shot. If he came at me or went for a weapon, my gun would have come into play instantly.
But understand, in my state and in many states, the homeowner in the OP would have committed a felony. The kid’s word would probably be enough to get a warrant and if the kid could describe the weapon, or pick it out of photo array, there would be problems. I don’t need problems, especially not over a damn bicycle.
JohnF, Fair enough, your state my frown on such behavior. I do understand your perspective.
No witnesses – no video – a guy standing in the doorway of his own house? How much credence to do you think any 911 operator or cop would give to this tattooed punk calling in a supposed brandishing complaint? What possible chance would this charge have of sticking in a court of law?
Exactly the point I was getting at upthread. Yes a reasonable cop or judge would see the sensible thing here and nothing happens.
We all know that cops are all totally reasonable and judges even moreso.
Yes, chances are small. But the potential for them to decide to charge you with something…. greater than zero. That’s what cops do, charge people, they love to do it.
I had a dgu similar to this. The guy was a salesman that had just gotten into an argument with my father where it got very close to physical contact. This guy just wouldn’t take no for an answer. My wife didn’t know about this when he started talking to her and when he got her outside our door and shut it I decided to see who it was. Not wanting a physical confrontation with my wife involved I stepped outside with my fns9 sticking out of my basketball shorts and firmly said “leave”. The punk left and there was no need for any further action. This same guy wouldn’t leave my father alone and almost got a fight for his efforts. All I had to do was say leave and reinforce what the gadsden flag in my front yard should have told him.
Dear concernedamerican,
Thanks for trolling this site. It is entertaining. You stated ” if they wanted you dead it would be a done deal. If the govt wants you dead, it is a completely trivial matter. Your AR doesn’t change any of that.”
(1) do you read the news? Didn’t one bad guy with an AR15 last week kill 5 police officers and badly wounded 6 others? One. Not 2 or 3. Not a team. One.
(2) the 2nd Amendment is not about self defense, it was first and foremost created for that very possible scenario: if one day, a tyrannical government wanted to send death squads to kill its citizens, then it would think about all these little rednecks with ARs who may actually defend themselves.
You should study the us constitution and its history , it is truly a beautiful document that you may fall in love with.
Troll of the Day is absolutely correct that the government is not afraid of my Ruger SR556. But they most certainly are afraid of 30 million or so AR15 pattern rifles (not to mention AKs), otherwise why would so many fascist state governments and Progressives in Congress and running for president be trying so hard to take them away from us?
Concernedamerican (CA) is interested in reality….. Here is some “reality.” The laws regulating fully automatic weapons, grenades, mortars, explosives, etc… are in place and effective. So the long winded emotion has no place in the argument. Take any firearm, load it and place it on a table. Fact, it will not move for eternity until someone picks it up and either mishandles it or uses it with malice intentionally. The problem I have with CA and his ilk is once a firearm is engaged irresponsibly they don’t hold the individual responsible for their actions. They blame the firearm vice the individual. CA lumps everyone with a weapon into the same “evil” category instead of exercising judgment. He holds everyone responsible for the actions of a relatively few number of people who carry out crimes with firearms. This “zero accountability” approach is a sickness, has permeated our society and is a major contributor to the problems we have today. CA says “get some facts” and yet I see no facts in his post that support his position, only emotion and insults. The facts stipulate black weapons are responsible for a fraction of deaths in this country compared to numerous other implements of death and destruction such as automobiles. Unfortunately I don’t think statistical facts mean anything to CA. I refer to people like him as a jumbo shrimp or a semi boneless ham. An oxymoron or just plan………….
“Will somebody P-L-E-A-S-E, PLEASE dox our new Liberal propagandist …”
DOXing reads as intimidation to many people – just wrong. Also, not worth the blow-back.
Anybody as deranged, poorly informed, and ideologically inferior as “concernedamerican” out to have their picture on a poster plastered to telephone poles throughout their community.
Concernedamerican is definitely *not* 2Asux. 2Asux can spell better and formulate his thoughts, however misguided, much better than this clown.
ahh, comparing internet trolls.
Like drinking from the bottom shelf, seeing which ones you can get drunk on BEFORE they make you vomit.
I suspect the details of the incident recounted by Dean’s friend (if it actually occurred) might be a tad bit self serving. The more likely chain of events is that Dean’s friend lost his cool and initiated a “get off my lawn” moment by threatening the use of deadly force on a turd who was standing on the front porch trying to figure out how he was going to steal the bicycle. The reason Dean’s friend failed to report a potential burglar and thief to police is because he knew he’d overreacted by unjustifiably drawing down on a punk for the crime of being up to no good. A sober and rational response of a lawfully armed homeowner would have been to investigate the commotion with the firearm held down until it became necessary to use or threaten deadly force. The failure of Dean’s friend to report a likely burglar and thief certainly didn’t help out the neighbors because once the punk who ran away figured out the police weren’t coming, he no doubt resumed is search for property to steal. Had Dean’s friend reported the punk to police, they might have identified and had probable cause to arrest and take him off the streets as a suspect in other burglaries and thefts or on outstanding warrants.
“Minority Report” is a work of fiction, written by a schizophrenic. Your attempt to be a psychic Batman is laughably ridiculous.
Ted is some cop that routinely violates people’s rights, or a mall cop who didn’t make the grade.
As I pointed out above, if you are in a hood where there is a 12 year old, on your porch, attempting to steal your bike, you had best assume that “kid” is armed. He didn’t brandish or point, he merely had the gun in hand. Which was the smart tactical play. Perhaps he straightened that kid’s life out, right there. (Doubtful, but still…)
No Ted, the AZ cops are not gonna think this is some “over-reaction” or anything else. Kid was trespassing and attempting burglary. The homeowner was well within the realm of plain old common-sense to be armed when confronting him. If you think the cops are gonna go somehow find (or care) about tracking the kid down, you are completely unaware of how things work in a major metro. Nothing was actually taken, so the chances of the cops even showing up are just about zero.
“..they might have identified and had probable cause to arrest and take him off the streets as a suspect in other burglaries and thefts or on outstanding warrants.”
And they might not, in fact they may not have even tried! Whatever, it is your responsibility to protect your life and property, the police have little interest and less responsibility.
Aw heck, just fire a couple of shotgun blasts through the screen door like Tactical Joe told ya to do so.
THERE WAS A CRIME COMMITTED ON THE PART OF THE HOMEOWNER! Did anybody else catch it? He converted a .357 N-frame Model 28 to a 45. May his chains rest lightly upon him.
I had NO idea this would turn into an endless thread about “concerned”. FWIW I believe he/she/it is ” new”. I don’t see 2asux,willy or anyone else. I see it mired in its own mediocrity. A regurgitator as it were.. my 2¢.
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