After watching the live streamed video of the aftermath of the police shooting of Philander Castile [above], a man who was legally carrying a loaded gun, I had to pause and reflect. A similar situation happened to me, only I wasn’t killed.
Last January, I was driving through the bitter cold across Idaho, making my way back to my previous home in California. I’d been out to Wyoming to visit my husband for my birthday. I was speeding, which is a feat in and of itself; my Jeep doesn’t handle all that well at high speeds.
I had cruise control on; I often forget that the lift and oversized tires affect my speed. As I rocked out to my 80’s jams while my kids napped in the back seat, I noticed the flashing lights behind me as I approached the Nevada border.
I pulled over, still unaware that I was speeding, and didn’t think I was going all the fast, as the cop was about to confirm. I honestly thought I had a tail light out or there was something wrong with the rear of my Jeep.
Either way, the cop walked to the passenger side, so I had to lean over to roll down my window (Jeeps with removable doors don’t have automatic windows.) I put my hands back on the steering wheel.
He immediately told me I was speeding and asked to see my driver’s license, registration and proof of insurance. Before taking my hands off the steering wheel, I disclosed that I had a CCW permit from the state of California. I was carrying a gun on my right hip under my pink sweater.
Much like the guy in the video, I assumed disclosing the fact that I have this permit would be a good thing. To get one, your record has to be squeaky clean.
This cop wasn’t concerned. He never reached for his gun. He simply said “That’s fine. Let me see all your licenses.” He carried them back to his cruiser and returned a few minutes later with a simple warning. “Please slow down. Six miles over the speed limit isn’t enough for me to write you a ticket.” I said I appreciated it and I was off, back on my way home to California.
The point is, now, after knowing this happened to a fellow permit holder, a supposedly law-abiding citizen, I’ll be a little more concerned if I see flashing lights in my rear view. If it could happen to him in front of his child, what about the rest of us who carry all the time?
Did the fact that I’m white make a difference in how the officer treated me? I don’t know. I can’t know. And neither can anyone else in a similar situation — until there’s solid evidence suggesting it did.
I know that there’s a history of racism in America. I know that DWB (Driving While Black) was a thing. It may still be, depending on geography. And the Philander Castile shooting may have been racially charged, if not motivated.
But the police officer involved, like any other armed American, should be considered innocent until proven guilty. Once that principle’s gone, the whole system falls apart. And then none of us are safe, in our cars or out.
DWB was never a thing, the Justice Department did a study and found that blacks are just more likely to break traffic laws.
Be that as it may, it was certainly a thing in the lilly-white RI town where my parents had a summer house. One of my parents’ black friends got pulled over every time he visited.
Was he local? Same state? I too am skeptical of DWB, but the cops up here will pull you over in a heartbeat if your not local. I guess you can call it Driving while “From Away”
I agree with, “are you from here” thing. My mother once had a shop in New Canaan, CT. Because when she first opened the shop, she was short on funds and had a working but beater Buick Regal. Mechanically fine, ran great, body work was a mess.
She would constantly get stopped for zero reason. Received several parking tickets that till this day we could not figure and after the 3rd ticket, she fought it court. Long story short, she finally purchased a used Black BMW 525 coming off of a lease.
Surprise, no more tickets. She proved to us once by double parking as we all went into a local coffee shop to get coffee and other food. 20min later, still no ticket. She said, previously she would have been given a ticket.
When my brother brings his beater Ford to my house to help me take things to dump, he almost always gets stopped by the PD.
I have no doubt, this kind of thing happens all the time.
“from away”. You have to be from Maine?
Anecdotal evidence isn’t.
She said it was a thing. Not that it was a prevalent thing. It was a thing.
Statistics are, though. Contradicting your statement above, whites are more likely to speed than blacks, but blacks are substantially more likely to get pulled over. Almost 5 percent of blacks are given no reason for the traffic stop, compared to 2.6 percent of whites. Whites are also 4 times as likely to be stopped for a sobriety check, which is arguably the most productive (in terms of lives saved) type of stop after speeding.
@Blinky commie
[CITATION NEEDED]
@whitepowerserge Why is it always the morons who can’t be bothered to cite their own claims beyond “I read this study” who immediately demand references? Well, regardless, here you go – http://goo.gl/bjUJYF
Prepare to have your whole world opened up, buddy. Your learning adventure starts today!
It is definitely a thing. Chris Rock tweets out every time he gets pulled over. It is like a monthly thing for him.
Chris Rock gets pulled over because he’s Chris Rock – and an a$$.
Well, I’d be willing to bet that DWB was and still is a “thing” in many places. Don’t know for sure and can’t know as Sara points out. However, most stops (black white or other) are handled professionally by the PO-PO.
Totally – same thing with slavery. Never happened. Turns out the whole thing was just a series of poorly timed Caribbean cruises, and the failure of the guests to read the clear and concise terms and conditions of said cruises. There are tons of studies I’m misremembering or just making up that definitively prove this.
Well, perhaps they should blame the original travel agents at their port of origin? Oh, wait, that wouldn’t perpetuate the “evil white man” narrative.
I assume you’re talking about the Africans who sold other Africans into slavery, right? Neato. That’s true, and that happened. That does exactly nothing to eliminate the centuries of slavery in this country, the (legitimate) systematic racism, segregation and murder that followed for a century afterwards, and the social bias that remains to this day.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not all “let’s blame whitey”. I’m just as disgusted with BLM tactics and campus “protest” behavior as I am with people like you who just want to pretend that the problem doesn’t exist at all. The world would be a better place if we could all have a grown up discussion about where we’ve been, what’s happening now and how we can make things better for everyone.
The problem doesn’t exist to me because it has nothing to do with me. I was born in Soviet Russia. The only “black” people I ever met for the first decade of my life were miners covered in coal dust.
I, for one, stopped giving a shit when I was somehow portrayed as responsible for shit neither I nor my ancestors had anything to do with just because of my skin color.
Personally, I’d care a lot more if the “black community” quit their bitching about what whitey did to their five generations removed ancestors and fixed their own problems.
In Russia, racism reverses you!
You don’t have to “give a shit”, you should just either stop making statements that can be disproven with 9 seconds of Googling or develop a less emotional rational for your beliefs. Might want to set down that tree-trunk sized chip on your shoulder too; you’re gonna develop back problems.
“centuries of slavery in this country”
I don’t usually get involved with other people’s arguments but this is “full retard.” This country has only been around for 240 years, AKA two and almost a half centuries, and last I checked the slavery thing was abolished 150 years ago. Therefore, there couldn’t be more than… let’s see, carry the two… 90 years of slavery in this country.
Pwrserge
I agree with you that blacks should take personal responsibility for the problems they create.
Now can you just get white people to stop giving them welfare?
Can you get white people to stop interfering in the formations of traditional black two parent families?
it is interesting to see white people so happy about homosexual marriage but at the same time support government policy that keeps black father’s from marrying the girl friend raising their children.
I have been stopped for traffic violations on several occasions in the last 30 years as a black gun owner. It was all my fault. I was speeding.
Three years ago I was stopped because I did not turn my head lights on.
With my hands on the steering wheel I told the officer I hand a gun. He got scared. He said. “You have a gun!” Yes I do would you like to see my permit?
He said no, he just wanted to see my Drivers license which I gave him. A few minutes later he came back. He returned my license and gave me a verbal warning about turning on my head lights and quickly left.
I treated that white officer with respect and he did so to me as well.
I have no problems with the police. I think they are good people in general.
Police will profile and pull you over in certain areas for being black. This isn’t controversial it’s reality. I have been pulled over for being white in the wrong area – because I must have been buying drugs. Profiling happens, it is a natural response to stereotypes and stereotypes exist for a reason. If you don’t think cops will do everything they can to find a reason to pull a car full of young black males driving through a middle class neighborhood, when they would never look twice in a different neighborhood, you are living outside of reality. I say this with a family full of LEO’s. Notice I didn’t say it is a bad thing, however, driving while black is an actual thing. You may want to look at that study again. White drivers were pulled over far more often for speeding than black drivers and black drivers were pulled over more often for vehicle defects or ‘record checks’. Black drivers were also searched far more often than white drivers – when asked and permission given. I’m not saying it is racist, black people account for a significant amount of crime and homicide for their population. However, pretending that DWB isn’t a real thing and police don’t naturally profile, which can often be seen as harassment, is pure ignorance.
“I have been pulled over for being white in the wrong area – because I must have been buying drugs.”
Yep, that happened to me…
“it is a natural response to stereotypes and stereotypes exist for a reason.”
That’s something I used to say too, but have come to realize there’s a glaring flaw with, and that we in the gun community should actually be quite aware of. Namely, do you think the stereotypes liberals have about us gun owners exist for a [valid] reason?
No, they’ve made them up, whole cloth, to demonize a group they hate. So I think it would behoove us, to be more cautious of thinking other stereotypes do in fact exist for a [valid] reason.
Your reasoning may appear sound, but you are wrong. It is a thing. I have seen it. I have heard it from people who have no “attitude”. It may not happen as much as it did when I was young, but it still happens.
after reading several of your comments its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.
So …don’t speed, and as a corollary be aware of your speedometer’s calibration vs reality?
I don’t think that’s the moral of Sara’s story, but I would point out that if you have a GPS unit, it’s not hard to verify the accuracy of your speedometer. It’s also pretty easy to determine your speed by timing yourself between mile markers on an interstate.
3600/(seconds per mile)=(miles per hour)
The other moral of the story, not mentioned: When you put oversized tires on your vehicle, you not only destroy your speedometer’s calibration but you also obliterate millions of dollars worth of vehicle stability testing and engineering.
I drive about 50k miles per year. I don’t have cruise control and do have a short attention span, so I occasionally get pulled over for speeding. I don’t volunteer that I am carrying, and have never been asked. Most of the time it is by a professional and polite officer. I usually get just a warning. A couple a of times it was by a frighteningly threatening cop though. Though the minority, in my estimation, their presence in the mix still causes me much fear when I see one bearing down on me.
Some states, such as Arkansas, have a duty to inform written in the CCW law if you are in contact with an officer. That being said, I would hope that the officer in such a state is better prepared to receive such information and act without malice or panic.
Had this guy kept his hands on the wheel while informing, it would have went differently.
Instead he says he has a gun WHILE reaching down.
Yes. As was noted in a comment on TTAG yesterday, people need to be more aware of all of the unwritten and uncodified rules, the violation of which is summary execution.
I distinctly remember being taught how to behave during a traffic stop in my CCW class.
soo, he was exercising his right to carry a gun, and exercising his right to reach in his pocket, and doing as instructed to produce i.d., and was executed as a result. There is no doubt that Miss Tipton got a pass on her story above because she was a white woman, vs a black man, whom likely would have, at minimum, been hassled by LEO, right or wrong. Herein lies the problem – LEO is permitted to point a loaded gun at you and anybody else, without justification – i.e. no factual or evidence of a deadly threat presented, and you are not allowed the same, nor permitted to defend yourself – you are at the mercy of the LEO thought processes, mood, alcohol use the night before, etc.
In TN the HCP it tied to your driver’s license. Same picture, same kind of plastic card, same number, just laid out differently. The net result is that if you are in your own car, the PO knows you have a permit before he gets to the window. They typically ask, “Are you carrying right now?”
Since I only speed going to and from work, and since I work on a military base, my answer is always no. I can’t tell you what would happen if I said yes, but the officers have always been friendly and professional.
The truth is that this should be of concern for us if we carry. The truth is there’s a lack of consistent protocol in interaction with police. This is something 50 state carry could help alleviate by stating a common protocol for both citizens and police to abide by when dealing with stops like this.
It certainly underscores the need of carriers to be extremely cautious (as they should be anyways) but also the needs of officers to be extremely cautious while not jumping the gun (literally in this case.)
I don’t own any firearms, but I’m pro 2@. I find all this conflicting. My attorney, who also does criminal /civil rights said don’t give up your rights, and never talk to the police! They are NOT your friends! Never surrender your rights…”I am I being detained…or am I free to go…No…I do not consent to searches and seizures…I am NOT surrendering, or waving any of my Constitutional rights! I have no wants, no warrants, no bolos, no AMBER alerts…I have NO criminal record of any kind ! This NOT a consensual stop! Am I under arrest ?! Am I being mirandized ! Than I can no longer answer any more questions as a good citizen! I want my attorney! ” I believe that’s how he said it……..
We already have fifty state Second Amendment, and look at the crazy quilt of firearms freedom infringement we have from sea to statist sea. And now you want the feds to get into the carry permit business?
NO federal law will ever read, in its entirety, “All states must legally recognize every other state’s license to carry as they do their own.” Never ever going to be that simple. National reciprocity would be loaded up with so many tricks, traps, hooks, and crooks that it’d turn into national denial of concealed carry.
You’re basically forfeiting state sovereignty to the feds. And that’s before any sneaky last minute amendments or back room dealings. Remember FOPA and the Hughes Amendment?
You seriously need to be careful what you wish for. If you really want reciprocity, though, then just lobby your own state government to effect unilateral or bilateral reciprocity. It’s easier, more direct and much less likely to blow uo in your face with unintended consequences.
Think of calling for federal legislation like you would calling 911: do so only as a desperate last resort, because it can cause much more trouble than it solves. It’s almost always better to solve your problems locally and legally than to summon federal assistance.
Amen, brother. Who needs enemies when we could have such good friends. (snark)
He wasn’t afraid. After all, the .40 S&W is a dead round, the Taurus won’t work, and you were wearing a pink sweater.
[snicker]
I’m going to wear a pink sweater from now on when I’m carrying
I think some of us armed citizens may need to reconsider how to handle traffic stops, no matter your color. Some police support 2A, some feel threatened by it. The facts of this latest shooting in MN will come out eventually, when they do we should pay close attention to how Castile informed the officer of his CCW.
Good idea. My suggestion for how to handle traffic stops is twofold:
First, don’t be an habitual traffic violator and scofflaw. If you routinely defy traffic laws to the point that you rack up forty or so stops like the Minn. jackwagon did, then your probability of experiencing an unpleasant encounter skyrockets.
Second, don’t be a pothead illegally in possession of drugs (and probably stoned at the time, but let’s wait for the tox screen to come back). If you are, then you’re apt to be more nervous, skittish, and imprecise in your movements and communication, which also increases your probability of experiencing an unpleasant encounter when stopped.
No, I’m not saying these factors warrant execution. I’m just saying it is what it is. Misinterpretations happen and judgment calls collide. Be smart up front and there will less likely even be a need later on to determine who was in the right or wrong.
I have been pulled over a couple times. Always got the ticket, never a warning. The only problem I ever had was some jackbooted thug asking me why I was carrying. The rest of them didn’t care
Really makes you reconsider the calculus behind carrying a gun at all.
Does it? Does it really?
I don’t want to have to be the one who says it, but there are potential circumstances where you’d want a gun to protect yourself from the police.
Oh I see what you mean there, I should take into account different variables I had not previously considered…or reconsider the calculus. If my goal is to protect myself I HAVE to consider all the risks involved, not just the ones I hope to encounter. I run into cops on a fairly regular basis. If just having a gun puts me at risk, that’s something I have to consider something I have to weigh against the riss against which I guard with a firearm. So, that I might need a gun to defend myself against a policeman, while an interesting consideration, seems much less likely than me getting pulled over. That’s why it makes me reexamine the calculus.
While you’re evaluating risk, don’t forget the other side of the equation is the reward.
If you don’t carry, the reward in any situation you’d need a gun for is almost certainly death. Kinda blows up an equation when things tend toward infinity…
so of the equation is having a gun sometimes gets you killed and not having one gets me killed at others what should I do? Weigh the risks and rewards.
There is more to this story than simply having the firearm.
Limiting your interaction with cops is a much better alternative to removing your own means to defend yourself. The issue with Castile appears he was pulled over as a suspect in an armed robbery case. This means the officer is going to be treating the person as a far more dangerous individual than a standard traffic stop.
Of course you could also alter where you keep your license so as not to be anywhere near your firearm, which negates the risk of being construed as going to your firearm.
No, no it does not.
Bullies and tyrants will try to intimidate you into not exercising your rights. If you give in to the fear they attempt to create then you might as well vote for Hillary and watch all of our Constitutionally protected rights go away. I would rather go down fighting – Die as a free man on my feet rather than live as a slave.
You are more than welcome to go down in a blaze of glory for your constitutionally protected right, or even for a simple misunderstanding that could easily be avoided, or for ISIS for all I care. But my family needs me a bit more than I need to conceal carry in my truck. So, I absolutely WILL consider every possible danger I may encounter and weigh it against the benefits of carrying a weapon. I’m not about to follow a cult like edict that exercising my 2A rights is worth more than my life. That would defeat the purpose of the gun in the first place.
Cult like edict? Nice straw man. Do you work in any other media? Balloon animals, perhaps?
The right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and an individual decision, to be made after serious reflection. There’s no edict involved and nothing unthinking about it.
If your decision calculus doesn’t recommend carrying, then you either did the math wrong or you have other priorities. Just don’t try to recast your differing decision as the only enlightened choice in a sea of benighted options.
Strawman? You just accused me of saying mine was the only enlightened decision after clearly failing to read or understand what I had written. I’m not interested in a debate with someone who can’t grasp the basic concepts which I am trying to communicate then hurls insults like a petulant little boy. I have more important things to do than explain myself to you.
Sooo….you just got schooled, as the kids say, so now you flounce off in a petulant huff, taking the time to call me names right before declaring you don’t have time for me? Seriously? You wouldn’t dare behave so boorishly in person.
Why don’t you just sit on the floor, pull your dress up over your head and delude yourself into thinking you’ve either become invisible or escaped the scene via teleportation, as a bizarre little girl with whom I went to elementary school used to do in faux resolution of her various predicaments? It’s about as mature and effective as your little name calling and ghosting approach.
Effective at what? Convincing you? Unfortunately I can’t undo your lack of class and education, nor can I remove the cowardice from your heart. I am not willing to debate you, but if you want to trade insults I’ll give it a shot. It seems to me that you are ruled entirely by fear, so that any challenge to your way of thinking sends you off on a tirade (safe behind the anonymity of the internet. You feel perfectly at home trolling a site where everyone agrees with you because you are essentially a complete p@$$&. Your insecurities and feelings of inadequacy likely drove you to seek out like minded individuals. When actually challenge me I imagine you cower, either behind your gun or anonymity. Either amounts to the same thing, a weak, pathetic excuse for a man ruled by his fears and feelings of inadequacy.
Only reinforces the proper why to handle an encounter.
Keep you hands visible (on the steering wheel), inform (that you have a permit first, then that you are carrying) and wait for further instructions.
Don’t reach for anything as you say the word GUN.
If you stopped by police you should NOT say, “I have a gun”. (instructions from an attorney)
You should say, “I have a permit and I am armed. What do you want me to do?”
Then wait for instructions. Don’t presume anything. Too much depends on the officer’s training, his attitude and maybe how bad a day he has had.
My few official interactions with officers went ok. Let them know, then do what they say. One (very aggressive and demanding) wanted the weapon so I very slowly and carefully retrieved from place of concealment and handed it to him while grasping by the barrel. He unloaded it. I eventually got it and ammunition back and was allowed to go on my way, no ticket, no warning.
Meh, I’m a ‘person of color’. I live in MN, and I carry every day. I have been pulled over while carrying. No problem. This is a problem of training both on the part of concealed carrier and cop. Sara, you did the proper thing by declaring your permit status first. Initial reports suggest Mr. Castille made the tragic mistake of saying ‘I have a gun.’ While reaching for his wallet. I don’t excuse the cop. He was a little trigger happy if he already had his weapon out. However, Mr. Castille also screwed up. When I travel with my firearm, I announce to the clerk at the check-in counter, ‘I’m traveling with my permitted firearm.’ If I was stupid enough to just say ‘I have a gun.’ I’d likely be shot by six airport cops before I could blink. The answer is better training, not just on the physical aspects of carry and not just on the legalities. People need to game out what to do when interacting with cops to make every encounter a peaceful one.
Bingo.
The statements by Ms. Reynolds at the beginning of the video imply something very different than her later comments.
“He asked him for his license and registration, which was in the back of his pocket because he keeps his wallet in his pocket. And as he went to reach he let the officer know before he was reaching that he had a firearm on him, and before he can let the officer know anything, the officer took off shots.”
http://time.com/4397189/minnesota-shooting-philando-castiles-facebook-live-transcript/
Training is key. LEO need to tell the difference between an existential threat and a going concern. He could be justified in drawing on the guy if he really just said “I have experience a gun” but pulling g the trigger is not warranted until you see a piece in the guys hand, coming at you.
That’s the standard we are held to as CCW holders and then some.
That does not excuse the officer’s complete and utter negligence here. His first response should not have been to unload four rounds into someone, particularly when that person is in a car that also contains a child. Even more appalling is that neither he nor any of the other cops provided first aid to the man who’d been shot, even after the police officer clearly recognized the gravity of the situation.
The shootings of Mike Brown and Alton Sterling leave quite a bit to be desired on the part of the deceased; in these cases they clearly behaved in a way that contributed significantly to their own deaths. I have a lot of trouble seeing much that this gentleman could have done differently. If nothing else that cop is clearly undeserving of the badge and should be fired for sheer, reckless negligence.
Most cops are not trained for first aid. There are legal liabilities for the officers and the department if they attempt to do something they are not trained for.
There’s also the issue of securing the scene and protection. Very difficult when there are more suspects than officers.
Once the female and child were safely secured, and a perimeter set and monitored, then any extra personnel might attempt aid, but EMS is probably there at that point.
In this case is that EMS arrived before the others were secured. In the video you can hear the ambulance arriving as she’s complaining that “they threw my phone” after being cuffed. That’s at the 2 minute mark in the video.
Can’t see much the guy could have done differently?
Try keeping your hands visible and still (like on the steering wheel) as you state you are a permit holder and are carrying (recommend not using the word gun either). Once informed, and the officer processes the info, then gives new instruction under the new information, then you do as told, slowly.
In many cases he’ll ask questions, like where is the weapon. If it’s near your ID say so. He might ask you to exit the vehicle in a specific manner and disarm you.
It would also be wise to know the laws regarding duty to inform in whatever state you happen to be in while carrying. I know my home state does not require you to disclose that you are armed and I wouldn’t volunteer that information unless asked or otherwise required to do so by law.
Traffic stops do not warrant introducing a firearm into the situation and informing an officer that you are armed does exactly that.
Unless getting to your ID is likely to expose the weapon.
Still don’t know where this guy had his gun, but his ID was in his pocket.
Was the gun likely to be seen as he was getting his ID?
Agreed that is a valid concern, but can be alleviated by thinking ahead. Have your ID and vehicle paperwork ready when the officer gets to the vehicle so you don’t need to go fishing in your pockets for it would solve that issue.
I have an envelope with my registration and insurance card in it that it easy to get to in the vehicle, and when I get in my truck the wallet goes in the center console. This isn’t because I get pulled over a lot, I haven’t been in a couple of years, but keeping the wallet easy to reach is helpful when going through a toll booth or drive through.
Agree completely. I usually don’t have my wallet in my pocket either (gets uncomfortable after a while). But that just makes it so the weapon won’t be seen when getting documents.
My point was if you somehow get in a situation where it could be seen, even if you don’t otherwise have to inform, you do, but do so in a manner so as not to be perceived as a threat.
As I understand it, MN does not require one to inform, but some localities do. While I can’t tell if this guy was required to or not, he chose to but did so in correctly.
I find that keeping my wallet in my shirt pocket automatically keeps me from uncovering or even reaching near my gun when accessing my license and other cards.
I’ve been pulled over by the Texas State Troopers and a County Sheriffs Deputy while carrying and my experience went exactly like this, no issues and warnings issued in both instances.
Must have been a slow day to pull someone over for 6 MPH over the limit.
I’m going to guess she still had Cali plates on her Jeep. If so, mystery solved.
I have a regular routine when I go to KY. I fly into Cincinatti airport and get a rental car. This last time I was there before daylight. Got my rental and went down I75. It was several hours before it dawned on me, sun up was about 5.30 or so, that I was in a fire engine red ford with New York plates on it.
Didn’t actually get pulled over. But i got the serious stank eye from the cops.
It sounds like there is a lot more to this story than we know so far. This morning I read there is social media info saying the guy was a known Crips gang member: tons of pics on facebook of him doing gang signs, gang related tweets and his girlfriend and him smoking weed around the child (lends to fact he may not have ccw). There is a pic of an arrest record, too, but I’m not sure what for.
Then how did he get a CCP?
My first traffick stop after getting my LTC was due to oversized tires throwing off speedo calibration. I don’t normally speed but had to get on the happy pedal to get around some guy who was trying to block me merging, after I powered past him I saw the black and white SUV on the shoulder.Call it karma or whatever, he indicated I was going almost 7mph faster than my speedometer was showing, which was already 5mph over the posted limit so I wasn’t given a warning.
I stopped, rolled my window down, killed the engine and had my hands on the steering wheel until the officer approached the car. When I told the office I was carrying he just laughed and semi sarcastically said “ok, just don’t pull it out on me and we’ll all be ok”. Gave me my ticket, lectured me about Austin traffic deaths being at an all time high, and told me to have a nice day.
My wife and I were pulled over once while she was driving. We were both carrying. The 3 cops treated me like a criminal even though I was compliant and non confrontational. They treated my wife like they treated Sara. Anecdotal? Sure. A different take on the “conversation”? Defiantly.
“I put my hands back on the steering wheel”
Did the guy in question do the same thing?
This is NOT in the video and it will come down to the cop saying he did not comply and his wife/girlfriend and her kid saying the opposite. Then the court of public opinion will probably throw the book at the cop in July of 2016.
I do every time I am pulled over. I kill the officer with kindness as well with a great attitude. I do everything they tell me to do, exactly how they tell me to do it. Attitude and behavior will save your life. You rights being violated is for another day in court.
In my state I was told in my CCW class that the police will know that I have a CCW if they run my plates and that you SHOULD tell them even if don’t have a firearm in the car with you at the time. Simply state “Office I am have a CCW permit and I am currently am or am not…..
I read that this guy had two felonies. Not sure if that is true but if so some questions come to mind.
Did the cop run his plates and get this info, and that caused him to be in a heightened state of alertness?
If he did have those felonies how did he have a CCW permit?
I think you are confusing the two cases currently in the news. The guy selling DVDs in front of a convenience store had a felony record. This guy was a passenger in a car pulled over for a broken taillight, had a record of a few minor misdemeanors only, seemed like the guy next door.
Maybe. However he was the driver not a passenger.
If that was the case we have a deadly combination of jumpy cop and someone who probably did the wrong things in front of a jumpy cop, like say “I have a gun” while reaching for his wallet, which is what is wife/girlfriend said he did. Bad or in this case deadly move on his part.
He was not a passenger. He was driving.
The video looks weird because of the front facing camera on her phone produces a mirror image (mine does the same).
Sara, without serious study of records, probabilities, etc., I would not assume that your color or gender had anything to do with your treatment by that officer. I would believe (until proven wrong) that the difference was in the officer involved. As a white male congenital speeder, I have been pulled over more than a few times, although I haven’t been ticketed in 10-15 years. Once (only once) I was hassled mercilessly by a jackass cop who acted as though I was a mass murderer on the loose when I advised (as required by law) that I was armed, after he pulled me in a grocery store parking lot, for an expired inspection sticker, in the middle of the afternoon. He even spent time muzzling me with my own gun, while attempting to unload it, eventually dropping the chamber round on the ground as I screamed and cursed at him to stop pointing my gun at me. When he told me to watch my language, I told him if he didn’t like my language he should go the fuck away! Every other time, bar none, I was treated as you describe, just as though he did not even care about my gun. Across several different states, different years, you name it. The difference, as I see it, is that there are some people who just have no business being police officers. It sounds like this apparently nice young man ran into one of them. Black or white notwithstanding, my problem is that I am nearly certain this cop will not only escape prosecution, but will be back on the street, armed, pulling people over for broken taillights, within a year.
Being muzzled carelessly by an officer with my own gun while the dip wad tried to figure out how to unload it would be a formal complaint and if his superior had any common sense a severe ass chewing.
The Falcon Heights MN shooting: the police were on high alert because of a BOLO for an armed robbery suspect from a few days before in that same neighborhood.
A Super USA Convenience Store was robbed at gunpoint
Because we all know that armed robbers will get a CCW and inform the officer of their permit and weapon… I watched the video and from the sound of the cops voice (he sounded like he was crying), it sounded like a rookie who is scared of guns and even though the driver did everything correctly, the police academy’s training of “everyone wants to kill you” and his nervousness around guns triggered his “fight or flight” instinct and he put four rounds in the driver for simply following orders to retrieve his license. The cop knew he massively screwed up.
I’m open to evidence that exonerates or incriminates either side still but that is nearly word for word my take away.
Also I’m surprised all of these people are volunteering they carry. I would not be telling the officer I am carrying unless I reasonable suspect that it can become known or exposed, I don’t want them anymore on edge by telling them I have a permit and a gun then possibly doing a high stakes disarming.
Depends on the State. In a Duty to Inform State, failure to do so can be a crime. In some States, he already knows before he talks to you anyway if you are in a car registered in your name.
Not that any of that is “right,” of course, but, it’s the way it is right now.
And what the hell does that have to do with this situation?
Are we supposed to all now listen to the police scanner before we get into our cars and “behave” accordingly because the local cops may be on edge?
I get it – plenty of us white folks almost want to tell ourselves there’s no way this could happen to us, because “social media” alleged the guy was a “crip” (Jesus, you guys sound like my grandpa) with no facts.
No, that doesn’t make any of this ok. Cops aren’t automatically good. There are plenty of cops out there that have no business being cops, and this guy sounds like one of them. If you listen to the video, he is the farthest thing in the world from keeping his cool.
But keep trying to twist this story into this average guy being a gang banging thug to make you feel better about yourself and still keep believing that all cops are wonderful people – if it makes you sleep better at night. Just keep it to yourself.
I have had several interactions with police while legally armed in CA (significant because most CA cops have never seen a CCW permit). All have been fine, I was told to do the following by some friends who are LEOs:
Windows down, so they can see in.
Dome light on if its dark.
License and permit out before the cop gets to the car.
Hands visible.
I’m still waiting for the “not for the reason you may think” part.
Do we actually know ANYTHING other than what was on the video? In either case?
I’m waiting for the “rest of the story.”
Personally, I’ll wait to answer a question when asked. Just up and telling a cop on alert, as they all are if smart, that you have a gun likely only increases the tension. If they ask if you have any weapons, a simple “yes” will likely do. They are prepared to receive that information. Answer their questions and follow their instructions from there.
Such is my opinion.
I think that DWP is much more significant than DWB.
I my younger years, I did not always DWP (drive while polite) and thought that it was cool to be rude to the officers who stopped me for several DWW (incidentally, driving while White) infractions. Guess what? My “White Priviledge” seemed not to impress the officers who justifiably jacked me up for being a jerk.
Age has made me wiser and more polite to everyone, including the officers who continue to occasionally stop me for DWW infractions. Their far better reactions to me are, I believe, reactions to my better reactions to them.
Let’s not kid ourselves. Although many Black drivers practice DWP, many others are downright rude and confrontational to every kind of authority figure.
Trying to figure where she would have been in ID on the NV border (having some idea of both ends of her trip). Most logical would seem to be US 95 between the Boise area and Winnemuca, but that jogs for just a little bit into OR. Done it swveral times, and the ID part is a bit rough. But 95 all the way down from Coeur D’Alene is that way – pretty windy – it is actually faster to get to Boise from at least Spokane, and maybe even CdA down 395 to Hermiston, then I 84 back southeast to Bose. Then, after arching for a couple miles through OR, it feels like 95 is running pretty straight through the desert to Winnemucca, where you can pick up I 80. Took the route on occasion when driving between houses in NW MT and south of Carson City.
Sometimes I think that the ID state police must have a boring job. A year ot two ago was pulled over on I 15 just north of Idaho Falls. Seems the tint on my windows was too dark. Officer had some gizmo that he put on both sides of the windows to show it to me. He had to have had something better to do. Except that is serious Mormon country, which means very law abiding, except for the tourists driving through. We got the vehicle at a police auction, and figure that it was probably a drug dealer’s fake Escalade, so it probably does look a bit suspicious. Since then, I have tended to set cruise at exactly the speed limit in ID, even on back roads (the ID border is 20 miles away here). And, no, I didn’t mention that I had a concealed carry permit and several firearms in the vehicle at the time, and I am pretty sure he wouldn’t have cared, at least once he saw my hair color. In much of that state, most of the vehicles probably contain firearms.
Which is maybe another point. In most of ID, WY, MT, and even NV outside Las Vegas, firearms in a vehicle can almost be assumed by the police. You carry them because of the wildlife, and because the police are often a long ways away when you need them. Here in MT, the county is roughly 100 miles long, and many nights a single deputy may be working it, which means that it could take an hour or better for them to respond. If I were a police officer in ID walking up on a vehicle with WY plates at night with kids asleep in the back, I would expect a firearm in the vehicle. Probably negligence otherwise. CA plates? Maybe not. (Rereading the post, it appears Sara still has CA plates) And the concealed carry permit is really irrelevant here. Can someone really get to their concealed carry weapon on their side that much faster than they could get to one in the central console? Here in MT, you don’t need a permit at all outside city limits to carry concealed, and I think much of ID is similar.
A few years back, a white man in Canton, OH was nearly executed for having a CCW and legally carrying during a BS traffic stop. A few months later was the first (and only) time I got pulled over while carrying and I was definitely nervous to tell the cop that I had a CCW. As an Ohio politician argued after the Canton incident, duty to inform laws only serve to put citizens at risk – someone intent on shooting a cop won’t inform them beforehand and non-violent people run the risk of an anti-gun cop killing them for simply obeying the law.
I applaud Sara’s reasoned approach. Instead of figuratively running around like a chicken with her head off she sits down and thinks through where we could go off the rails. This is a fine example of going beyond first order thinking.
The other day I observed a good deal of the opposite over the Alton Sterling incident. Here we have another case of a felon with a gun who violently resists arrest and ends up dead and we had a solid contingent including Robert blaming the police. If you are apprehended during the commission of a crime and violently resist the police what do you expect to happen? Maybe it was an ND but it happened because he resisted and police used every mode force including two Taser shots to subdue him. I would like to see some you cowboys wrestle with a suspect gun in hand and see how well you do.
I did not blame the police.
Robert, apologies I went back and reread the article. I have no ability to amend the text at this point if you can feel free to do it..
This officer, not all police officers, didn’t appear to call 911 or assist in stopping the man’s bleeding.
We have to stop saying or thinking, “All.” All police, women, men, children, Mexicans, Blacks, Whites, etc.
Being adversarial because some people decide to protest an injustice just increases their need to protest until you get it. Stop defending racism/classicism or poor police training. If goes both ways. The NRA lobbies for 2A rights. Hillary calls them a terrorist organization. Some Black Americans have been mistreated by some White Americans historically. Blacks were denied the right to vote. You may be about to be deprived of your gun rights. Whose side are you on?
It’s been apparent in American history that the powers that be pit one group against the other to distract the groups from realizing the the powers that be are taking all the goodies. White sharecroppers and Black sharecroppers were abused by “the Man.” Both kept down and poor. That power tells the poor White that Blacks want free stuff, and Mexicans are taking their jobs. Think about it.
You folks who keep saying you didn’t have slaves need to stop. Every person rich to homeless in America today benefits from the free and indentured labor of African slaves and poor European immigrants. Our entire economy would be different if an honest wage was paid to these people.
Don’t believe this from me. Look it up. Wake up and realize what an enemy the Waltons etc. have been to the common American. While telling you here’s the American Way they have run off with the profit. They’ve sent our sons to war in other countries for no reason except profit. Look up General Smedley.
Same thing happened to me but I’m Mexican. Kept hands on the wheel and disclosed I was concealed carrying and the officer told me to keep my hands on the wheel, I got a verbal warnings and drove off with no extra holes in my body. But the point in this case is we don’t know anything, did he make sudden and fast movements? Is the officer a super racist who wanted to kill a black guy? We don’t know anything.
I would love to share this out, but first can we spell the victim’s name correctly?
Complying with “duty to inform” should be you handing the LEO your permit along with DL and insurance card. If he/she wants talk about your heater, fine.
EXT, that works if you can get to your ID without flashing a gun.
Either because you have it somewhere away from the weapon or you get it out before the officer approaches.
This guy did neither. Instead if says he has a gun as he reaches toward his back pocket.
Correct ST. I’m not going to say to a cop: “I have a gun…”
I’ve made disclosure to local LEOs twice, even though MA is not an “immediate disclosure” state. Both times the cops did everything possible to indicate their indifference except yawn.
The cops in my MA town are down with me carrying, and why not? They’re the ones who issued my license to carry in the first place. It was the same way when I lived on Cape Cod. One of the local Cape chiefs went so far as to say that licensed carriers helped cops.
MA is about as anti-gun as anyplace could be. So when cops in pro-gun states go batshit crazy when they find out about someone legally carrying, I just don’t get it.
We don’t know what exactly happened… but we can easily imagine situations where the driver move to reach his wallet could be looked suspicious by a jumpy cop… we can imagine the driver didn’t do anything wrong but a racist cop just overreacted when knowing a black driver was armed (just after another story that was in the national news the day before), maybe it was something else, we will probably never really know.
So I think it might be more constructive to try to learn about this event and make sure it will never happen to any law abiding gun owner in future. Maybe make sure to keep hands on the wheel and then mention your wallet is in your back pocket and request, even twice if needed, if you can reach your wallet… and be sure the cop will not interpret any movements, etc… Just be sure that the traffic stop will happen smoothly for both parties to get home safely.
Let’s not fall in the dirty anti-gunners trend to divide gun owners against police officers, etc… Let’s support our police officers, let’s make sure they can do their job safely and we can live safely without infringing our rights. Let’s make sure bad police officers will be fired and put in jail for any bad actions, but let’s not make a general assumption that all cops are bad.
My 2¢
I’m a 6’2″ 400lb African-American bearded bouncer. I live in Texas and have my CHL. I have been in the same situation as both the authpr and Philando. I have always disclosed my firearms and carrying status to police officers. The harshest verbiage ever used after volunteering this info was, “Well, you don’t reach for your gun, and I won’t have to reach for mine.”… Concealed Carriers are still the good guys. Police View us as the good guys. I honestly think (according to the girlfriends account), that the officer heard hom say “I have a firearm…” and when the girlfriend started yelling, it completely obscured the “I’m a licensed carrier” and her yelling amped up the officer and he fired. It’s a shitty situation all the way around.
Were you in Wyoming? Wyoming does not honor California’s license to carry? I am surprised you were not arrested.
No offense Sara but you being a tall slim red haired white mom doesn’t mean a black woman wouldn’t get abuse from the po-leece. Racism IS a thing no matter what anyone on this blog believes…
I have to ask what you mean by this statement.
Are you suggesting that police are generally racist?
If there was or is any favoritism I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts (oh yeah I went there) that it had more to do w/ your gender than race.
When it comes to being hassled by anyone – males (especially young males) get it worse than women all the way around. Other factors matter like attractiveness, (perceived) class, complexion, etc. but if all factors are the same I would bet on males getting hassled more often, and to a greater extent than women across the board.
Maybe so but when I was a young buck (45 or so years ago I WAS guilty of all kinds of “crimes” and misdemeanor’s. And the other guys I hung out ETH…and chicks got away with murder:)
Did you call the Medved show today?
Are you addressing ME Michael? I haven’t called any “show” since maybe 1973…(Michael Medved?)
A caller yesterday was your age identified as Brian, I missed where he was from, mentioned he was married to a black woman who was conservative. His comments sounded like your views on matters. If it was you, I wouldn’t divulge the name. I was just curious.
Well I don’t think I’m the ONLY OFWG married to a beautiful black woman in America. Who’s conservative. And who’s wife is conservative(whatever that means nowadaze). And I’m certainly not named Brian(or ever use that nom de plume). Curious if “Brian” was a “gun-guy”,,,?
Not to be that guy, but I think the term “racist” is overused and misused too much these days. I don’t think people are as racist as the salacious media would have you believe. I do think people are more predisposed to judge other people based on appearance and race is only one component of that. Yes its a vicious cycle, whites were brutally oppressive to blacks for a long time and now the black culture in america still feels that everyday to one extent or the other. Can’t blame a cop of any race for being a bit prejudice based on the profiles of people who commit more crimes in their area. It needs to be fixed from the top down. Lots of police departments and communities need overhauls, but its not just about blacks and whites its more about rich vs poor.
While I agree that many PDs need an overhaul I disagree that “profiling” people is a bad idea as long as it’s not done solely on race and the number of people who do that is pretty damn small.
When I’m walking around in downtown Denver I look at people differently and it has nearly nothing to do with race.
The black guy in a suit, like everyone, gets a casual glance. The black guy in a the tall T with his pants around his knees wearing gang colors and flashing signs is higher on my radar than the black guy in the suit. But so is the white guy dressed and acting like a thug. So is the white guy who’s homeless and clearly addicted to drugs or talking to people who aren’t there. So is the white guy who’s acting shady by the entrance to that alley over there.
It’s not racist to notice the black guy who’s sending all the “thug” signals. I’m not noticing him because of his skin color I’m noticing the fact that he’s dressed and acting like a thug. Cops see that too. The black guy can scream “racism” all he wants but he’s just trying to shift the argument to the cop or other person because he can’t actually give you a rational explanation justifying his behavior as normal. He’s acting like a thug and he fucking well knows it. He loves the extra attention it gets him from certain people like girls who are into that and white people it intimidates. When some thug gets to say to another thug or some floozy of his “You see dat shit? Scared ass cr**ka ran away like a lil bitch!” he likes that attention. He LOVES that attention. He revels in it. But when he gets attention from an unwanted source such as the Fuzz… well that’s just racist.
You don’t have to even see the person to start getting signals about the way that person does business. Black people tend to have a pretty obvious voice (Oh shit, is pointing out a fact like that racist?!). The black guy behind me who’s talking on a phone and says “No Barbara I just can’t make that we’ll have to reschedule” is exceedingly low on my radar while anyone behind me basically yelling (as thugs tend to do) “Yeah ni**a dat shit was off da fuckin’ chain fo realz! Straight up gangsta!” moves way up on the list.
If you don’t wanna get fucked with by the cops don’t act or dress like a shady criminal and 95% of your problem will go away instantly. The people who openly act like this are begging to get fucked with by the cops.
Cops profile. All people profile. This isn’t anything new. It’s how our brain functions. We have a “folder” where we keep “things that indicate a threat” and when people engage in those behaviors we notice it. The same is true when we’re looking for things. Cops have a file in their brain of things that tend to indicate criminal activity.
How they do it varies from locale to locale, person to person and with departmental guidance. Some places make a lot of revenue from ticketing people who are not locals and therefore profile people who “ain’t from around here”. When I was in high school the local Sheriff came in and gave us a talk. During that time he said the number one thing you could do in my area if you didn’t want to get pulled over was to not have four young people in a car all wearing baseball caps. In his opinion simply removing the hats reduced the chances of being pulled over by 50% because four young people all wearing hats tended to have drugs or alcohol in the car.
There was a YouTube video a few years back where a black guy was giving advice to other black people. He said that the stereotype of young black males centered around a grain of truth and that if you want to stop the DWB issue then stop riding around with people who have drugs, guns or warrants because when the cops pull over a car with four young blacks in it, it’s statistically much more likely that they will find weed, illegal guns or someone with a warrant. He reasoned that if black people stopped doing such things at a much higher rate than other people over time cops would stop harassing them because it would become much less likely that “shaking the tree” would result in something falling out of it.
Philando. Not Philander. XD
Glad you had a good experience.
Where is the evidence that Castile actually had a concealed carry permit? According to his county sheriff, Castille never applied for, and was never issued, a permit by his department.
Yep. Everybody’s basing their opinions on the after incident report given by the “girlfriend”. Including the President of the United States who is 5,000 miles away physically and light years away mentally.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/07/08/confirmed-philando-castile-was-an-armed-robbery-suspect-false-media-narrative-now-driving-cop-killings/
Oh my god. This never happened. Stop lying, you lying whore. Why would he pull you over if it’s not enough to give you a ticket? Jesus Christ. Just stop it.
Also, speed is speed. You have the cruise control set, it should stay there. STOP LYING, LIAR.
What’s wrong Frank? Do you have some sand in your vagina? Does it itch?
No. I am fine, just tired of her incessant lying. How did she get hired? I was unaware this was a fiction website and she clearly makes everything up as she goes.
Comments are closed.