Ah, political grandstanding. Where would we be without it? More specifically, where would the civilian disarmament movement be without pandering to people’s irrational fears? [NB: The NRA’s alarmism is based on rational thinking, mostly.] One of the gun grabbers’ key tenets of terror: some firearms are WAY too dangerous for civilians. Machine guns? Certainly. (Providing you forget the fact that police are civlians, too). “Assault rifles”? Most definitely. (Providing you forget the fact that tens of millions of Americans own them without incident.) And handguns. Admit guys, you want to ban handguns. Some handguns more than others, apparently . . .
politix.topix.com reports that NY Rep. Eliott Engel has introduced legislation to ban “Five-seveN” handguns, which the website describes as “pistols capable of killing a police officer wearing a bullet-proof vest from over 200 meters away.”
According to Engel, several types of ammunition for the Five-seveN have the ability to pierce law enforcement body armor. The Five-seveN handgun is one of the most popular with Mexican Drug Trafficking Organizations who have nicknamed the gun the “mata policia” or “cop killer.”
Wait. Didn’t Engel already fight and lose this battle back in the day? Yes. Yes he did. Sherman set the Wikipedia Wayback Machine for 2005.
That’s when The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence labeled the Five-seveN a “cop killer” and called for its ban. Rep. Engel responded with H.R. 1136: PLEA Act. Even though Senator Lautenberg championed a Five-seveN ban in the Senate the push to rid America of FN’s partially plastic pistol failed.
In March 2007, Engel tried again, under the new designation H.R. 1784: PLEA Act. That didn’t fly either, although our elected representatives managed to ban civilian (non-law enforcement) sales of the Five-seveN’s hotter supposedly “armor piercing” ammo. Even though some pistol and most rifle rounds are far heavier and more powerful.
Engel tried to ban the FN again after the Islamofascist Fort Hood shooter used a Five-seveN to murder 13 people and injure 30 more. “In July 2010, legislation was introduced in the United States Congress by Rep. Engel, for a third time, under the new designation H.R. 6030: PLEA Act.” Again, no sale.
So, basically, Engel figured Newtown, WTH.
By now the career taxpayer-tit-sucker’s fed-up with that whole democratic process. In addition to banning his pet peeve through legislative recycling Engel wants the Prez to [once again] exercise his Executive Powers to git ‘er done, “assault rifles”-wise. His statement on the subject:
In addition to banning this weapon, which is designed to kill, especially our brave police officers, we have other means to stop the violence. I again call for the president to reinstate the ban on imports of assault weapons, a ban enforced during the administrations of Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. This is something he can do immediately by executive order, while Congress works on other measures to limit gun violence and increase measures to treat the mentally ill.
Isn’t one of the definitions of a mentally ill person someone who keeps doing the same thing expecting different results? Just sayin’.
Ms Engel needs to ban himself!
Lol. The weakest .22 cal centerfire ever made is too powerful for civilian use. We should all be limited to safe and friendly hunting rifles like the 7mm and .300 magnums.
LOL
lol +1000. He aught to take the angle of, “FN shouldn’t be able to rip off its fanboys with a $1200 plinker.” You know, use the consumer advocate angle.
Don’t forget the ~$1.50 per round they run now too.
Ya know I love that this idiot keeps pushing a bill to ban a gun that has not even been used in the killing of one US police officer.
“Ya know I love that this idiot keeps pushing a bill to ban a gun that has not even been used in the killing of one US police officer”
…. while whooping and wailing for a decade that it’s a police officer killer.
There are pistol rounds that are heavier and more powerful yes, but are then any PISTOL rounds that are better at piercing soft body armor than a 5.7x28mm? Rifle rounds, yes obviously, but what pistol rounds do that better?
Considering it’s already illegal for non-LEO civvies to have the 5.7 rounds that are designed to penetrate armor, soft or otherwise, I think you aren’t asking the right question.
And before someone links the YouTube video, flack jackets are not the same as body armor. One is designed to stop steel fragments, the other lead bullets. Big difference.
Illegal to purchase newly-manufactured AP ammo, not to possess.
7.62x25mm.
soooo my tokerov will be on a ban list soon eh?
Exactly. 7.62×25 is armour piercing with cheap surplus ammo. The pistols are under $300 bucks.
+1
Ladies and Gentlemen, for your consideration, the .460 Smith and Wesson.
Subtle troll is subtle.
As subtle as Robert’s straw man was. He’s saying that armor piercing 5.7x28mm bullets were banned, even though some other rounds are heavier and more powerful. The two statements were unrelated.
I would bet the .224 Boz would do it better but that’s a wildcat. I’m sure the .22 Remington Jet would be really close to 5.7×28 in velocity with the same weight bullet. 7.62×25 with .22 sabots would be too.
Or .22 TCM
Why does it matter? You troll well enough to be aware of 5.56, 7.62×39, and even .308 “pistols”. And so…what? It just makes no f***ing difference. You’re asking a pointless question to allude to a not-well-defined non-argument.
357 SIG FMJ and 9mm +p+ FMJs will penetrate vests.
357 SIG JHPs will even penetrate.
The 22 Magnum can pierce some soft body armor and so can the 7.62×25 Tokarev/30 Mauser(basically interchangeable)
Literally any thompson center rifle caliber pistol. Sure, it’s single shot, but that’s what backup guns are for.
7.62 x 25 mm, shot from a CZ52
In the same vein, are there any pistol rounds at ALL, which render the killing of police officers legal? Because if not, the killing of police officers is already against the law, no further action is necessary, right? Whatever vest he is wearing, being driven over by an 18-wheeler will kill an officer, but we outlaw driving over police officers, not 18-wheelers.
Are you asking in terms of a NATO or former warsaw country? Or the civie’s market. Because the Russians have two handgun’s with arguably better penetration characteristics because it is a larger size projectile (meaning more ability to use a special core) I know of chambered in 9x21mm not to be confused with the IMI of same designation or the similar .357 sig.
Definitely an idiot, but he’s the dangerous type- he really believes in his made-up cause. Those are the kind that tape bombs to their shoes, or so I’m told.
I just tried to buy a five seven a few weeks ago, but I couldn’t find one available without an obscenely jacked up price. Decided to go with a Smith and Wesson 500 instead thinking by the time I save up again, the gun grabbing furor would’ve died down and I’d be able to get the fn at msrp. Guess I thought wrong
Eric, still a good choice with the S&W.
The issue in getting the five seven for me is finding the ammunition!
If the ammo ever came to the realm of affordable, I’d be all over it.
That’s why I sold mine… could only find ammo for jacked up prices at gun shows, and good luck finding defensive ammo.
Loved the gun, just couldn’t afford to feed it.
My local shop has quite a bit of 5.7×28 in stock its American Eagle I think its $23 per box/50. I always thought FN was the only mfg of the ammo but I have been seeing this American Eagle around they had it at Palmetto State Armory when I was there the other day too.
Love the Five-Seven also. Gun and ammo are just too damn expensive for me to buy one.
May the hoplophobes never discover the 10mm!
shut up! nsa forwards these to those morons. as long as we stay obscure we’ll be fine
For the win… lol
“Isn’t one of the definitions of a mentally ill person someone who keeps doing the same thing expecting different results? Just sayin’.”
this line was golden!
They may be insane, but the key thing to note is that they are absolutely relentless. They will never stop pushing, no matter what happens, and they will never willingly take a step back. They will lie, cheat, bully, and threaten. You can’t reason with them. You can’t negotiate with them. Worst of all, you can’t just ignore them and leave them alone because they won’t grant you the same courtesy.
Kinda makes me tired just thinking about it. Well, price of freedom and all. Fight on.
+1
I identify strongly with being exhausted from thinking about it. I think I need some trigger therapy.
What is it with all the a-holes in NY ? It’s not the water or the air ’cause I turned out fine. It’s unreal. Dang, I need to get out of this place !
The FN Fiveseven will put fear in the hearts of cops everywhere just like nunchakus did. Outright ban nation wide in 3, 2, 1.
Or throwing stars. Thanks God those are illegal – if I’m attacked by ninjas, there’s no way they would get ahold of those.
There was a similar argument regarding bayonet lugs back in ’94. . . To date I’m aware of only one bayoneting of a police officer, ever.
Just try and figure out why it is that in Ohio a CCW permit allows one to carry a handgun of ones choice and as much spare ammo as one is capable, but state law prohibits possessing a knife over 4 inches, a baton, any spring loaded automatic knife etc. Laws need not make sense or be directed at any actual public safety concern.
Beware laws for these are fortifications behind which small minds hide. -Frank Hurbert (Dune).
Well to be fair, they should ban Bows and Arrows, because those can go through body armour like a hot knife through butter. But I bet the would call it an “Assault” Bow.
“This [an assault weapon ban] is something he can do immediately by executive order.” Can someone please explain to me the argument as to how an AWB could be accomplished by executive order?! I’m not seeing it.
Not a ban, but a ban on imports.
I think he’s trying to push for an import ban. Which is funny, because doesn’t FNH manufacture a fair amount of product in-country?
“reinstate the ban on imports of assault weapons.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understood this as the executive branch, via various federal agencies, having the power to limit imports and exports by bureaucratic regulation. Hence the Obama Administration’s decision to refuse the importation of the Korean M1s and M1 carbines.
Keep reading: “I again call for the president to reinstate the ban on imports of assault weapons.” This he can accomplish by executive order.
So the weakest .22cal centerfire in the world is too powerful? Best to stick with safe and friendly hunting rifles like the 7mm and .300 magnums.
well, the sheeple keep voting for the same two parties over and over again and expect different results. yea. I said it.
+1
I dont think a lot of people realise there are other parties (except maybe the green). For the ones who do, Im sure many think that no one but a Dem or Rep have a chance at getting in office.
Thats what pi&&es me off the most. So many people were rooting for Ron Paul and in the same breath saying they wont waste the vote because he dosnt have a chance. Well he didnt have a chance because no one has any fv@king integrity.
And the reality is, it won’t be an overnight rise of a third party. So when people say “oh my vote is wasted voting for X,” that’s not really the truth. The more votes a third party candidate gets in a given election, the more legitimacy and coverage the party will get in the future.
A vote for Ron Paul was anything but a waste, it was a big eff yew to the business-as-usual members of the Republican party. It’s so frustrating to hear voters beg for a candidate like Ron Paul, then he comes along and everyone walks to the voting booth with tail between legs and votes for token D and RINO candidates.
What is the rule, if they get 5% percent of the vote, they get access to federal funding next go around?
When I win a billion dollars in the mega-lotto, I’m gonna run on the “None of the Above” ticket. 😉
I’m with Ron Paul on everything except I’m pro-choice. Without freedom of choice and total ownership of one’s own body from the skin in, the word “Liberty” is just so much lipstick on the fascist pig.
But anti-choiceism comes from the old Roman and Greek and most religious cultures, which considered women to be chattel property.
I guess it’s kinda sad that the Founders didn’t explicitly guarantee self-ownership. Sigh.
I want a FiveSeven but for its cost and the fact that I cant shoot it at my local range…
This is my sad face
A ban on the gun itself is nonsense, but hopefully they will ban the ridiculous CapitalizatioN SchemE in it’s StupiD NamE.
slight problem for Mr Engel, the only ones who can legally obtain the “ARMOR PIERCING/COP KILLING” rounds are the police and military themselves.
the actual WAREHOUSE to where it is imported, and they are stored isnt just a store front…FN was very particular about that ammo.
the only FN AMMO that is for civvies is only hollow point, and either a plastic tipped varmint bullet style, or a semi soft point…
NOT A JACKETED STEEL BEARING PERPETRATOR BULLET…
but hey mr stupid liberal Engel…keep spending that political capitol for bad ideas and stupid intentions. we all know how well New York is benefiting from “great leadership, and certain gun rights for only certain people”
Well said, this is the truth. I wonder if the congressman will mention this very important fact?
You gotta hand it to Engel. He’s is willing to put his mouth where Bloomberg’s @ss is.
So, since nobody’s asked this question yet, I guess I will: How many people do YOU know that can hit a man-sized target at 200 meters with a pistol? I want to meet that guy and shake his (or her) hand. If they exist. And it wasn’t an accident. And they can do it more than once. With less than a box of ammo.
Why is this idiot talking about ammo lethality at that range being a factor in banning a pistol????
Oh, yeah, all the time. “Pistol sniper” they call me. Got the medals and everything.
Wait, in real life? Not in video games? Nevermind.
My thinking exactly….In theory killing someone that far away is possible, but actually doing it? That’s another story, (especially when the 5-7’s effective range is about 50 meters. I highly doubt quadrupling that range would make it any better at killing).
How many people do YOU know that can hit a man-sized target at 200 meters with a pistol?
According to Karl Lippard, he can do it all day long at 400 yards with his wonder 1911 and open sights.
I actually managed to hit a 3 foot x 3 foot steel target at 200 yards 5 out of 8 times with my 1911. AFTER 1 full mag to “sight in” with only the last round of that mag connecting. However, 3 of those 6 hits were within a small enough area in the center that they would have hit a person. That said, a handgun shot at that range is highly impractical, and most handgun rounds lack the energy needed to to kill at that range, barring a perfetly placed shot, which, let’s be honest, is highly unlikely at that range. It, honestly, was just a “I wonder if I can do this” kind of thing. If I really wanted to shoot someone from that range, it would be with a rifle, and not one chambered in 5.7x28mm.
“this weapon, which is designed to kill, ”
I don’t think these guys truly understand what a firearm is, as they act shocked that a weapon is designed to kill.
“This sword, which is designed to cut stuff”
“This Taser, which is designed to shock stuff”
“This printer, which is designed to print stuff”
“This politician, who is designed to bullsh1t.”
Why are people, from politicians to gun enthusiasts, so interested in this gun? It’s not a POS but it’s not a carry piece, there are more cheaper and more enjoyable caliber handguns and ammo to shoot at the range and it’s not the most accurate handgun as many claim. We got to shoot this gun at a private range last month, ammo was the 40 grain vmax bluetip and some 28 grain hps, decent grouping at 25-50 and 100 yards was doable with the right sized target but nothing special. It shoots like a dream and other than the trigger and awkward grip it’s a fun unique firearm. The guy who owned the gun paid 1200 some time back but apparently they are up to 3k now with ammo absolutely nowhere. We had to pay a premium just to shoot 60 rounds each and I can say it was fun but unless I can actually get ammo at a fair price, get ammo at all, and the price of the sold out gun comes down to realistic levels of 1k or a little less it’s not a gun that will be in my future.
It’s something new and shiny, well black, and some people just gotta have it. And along with the premium price are rareness it automatically becomes a ‘must have’ even though it’s nothing of the sorts.
As to the politician trying to specifically ban this handgun for the myth that this round can penetrate any further than others is complete bs, but not surprising. I guess it kinda reminds me of the black talon myth but I’m not sure. In this case it is the ammo, a specific load, that can cut through kevlar, it isn’t the gun or the .224 caliber itself. As far as I’ve been told there is no steel core(penetration) ammo available to the public, only military.
This is basically a AR pistol IMO, and that’s the reason it will be hounded by the left. They want some kind of victory in the gun control issue, maybe this will be one of them, although so far they have gotten nothing at the federal level.
I shot a 57 rental because my son wanted to try one. I thought it was cheap looking – too much plastic. It has a mag disconnect safety (yuck, really FN?) and the mag had a problem. You had to whack the bottom of the mag between every shot, which reduced the fun level considerably.
I don’t know about it for new shooters. It doesn’t have a lot of recoil, but is very loud and has a huge muzzle blast. Color me unimpressed. I would rather have a Keltec PMR30 for 1/3rd the price. It looks like an airsoft gun too.
Y’know, sometimes bad guys hide behind things.
For those days, there’s TT-33.
What’s funny is that it’s basically a glorified, expensive, .22 WMR. Any politician talking about the 57’s awesome cop killing mystical powers just comes across as completely retarded.
If you were a cop, which handgun would you prefer the gansters had (silly question, but just play along). A 57 with the ammo that civilians can actually find, and buy… or someone with a .45 w/the commonly available hollow point ammo? I mean, really.
It’s literally like they are saying “the .22 WMR is super dangerous, we must ban it!”
“a ban enforced during the administrations of Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton”
1994-2004 AWB? Does this tool mean George W. Bush?
Importation ban was different from AWB.
HW banned the imports of several semi auto weapons based of assault rifle designs. I know the HK 91 was one of them.
My question is has the Five-seveN actually seen ANY use with Mexican drug cartels at all? I keep reading that claim over and over, but I have trouble imagining them having Five-seveNs in any noticeable quantities (if at all), much less the corresponding ammo. Why would they bother obtaining a $1,000 pistol instead of half a dozen Tokarev clones or Hi-Points?
I actually laughed out loud at the proclamation that the 5.7 round could pierce body armor at 200 yards! Where do they come up with this shit? And, why do they regurgitate it without vetting it first? Well… the last question was rhetorical. 🙂
Love my Five-seveN pistol. Just fun to shoot. Lightweight. Low recoil. A hoot! I’ve got my little stash of ammo for it, but I’ve not been shooting it lately. I’m jonesing for a PS90 rifle.
This is an illustration of the danger of giving in on the margians.
Every time this issue comes up, it should be met head on thusly:
“The purpose of the Second Amendment is to ensure our right and ability to “alter or abolish” “any Form of Government [which has become] destructive of [the] ends” of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. In otherwords, yes, this gun would be good for killing a cop. What is your point?”
These idiots don’t know the difference between a handgun and a submachinegun! They are confusing the Fiveseven with the P90. The 5.7 round has a 200m range WHEN FIRED FROM A P90!
“According to FN, the 5.7×28mm cartridge has an effective range of 200 m (219 yd) and a maximum range of 1,800 m (1,969 yd) when fired from the P90.” per Jane’s Infantry Weapons 2009/2010.
“Effective range” is a relative term. I’d bet the farm that anyone hit at 201 to 1800 yards would agree that it is “effective” to some degree.
Case in point: the military “effective range” of the 7.62 NATO/.308 round is about 800 yards max. Tell that to the poor sandcrawler that caught one from a Marine sniper at over 1,250 yards a while back.
Affirmative TSgt, I was on a shooting team in the Marines and we did practice out to 800 yards with M14’s.
I was too old and too out of shape, so it was too much work and I dropped it, but I did manage to keep my rounds in the 9 and 10 ring at 1000 yards first, at Camp Perry, with a National Match M1A and 175g Navy long range match ammo, and iron sights. And I would not like to be hit by it at that range.
It seems to me that if one intends to take on an armed target protected by ballistic armor there are better choices than any handgun, many of which are fairly concealable, others laughably simple (Molotov cocktails come to mind). The senator isn’t doing this from ignorance I suspect, but rather (as has been noted) as a foot in the door. The ‘cop-killing’ ‘armor piercing’ ‘high capacity’ ‘assault weapon’ ‘high powered’ appellations are just part of the play book and the goal is making any inroad to infringing on the 2A. These are not people who are put off by pandering to ignorance, in fact, they thrive on it. Just as simple facts and logic disprove virtually all the claims the anti 2A crowd make, a bit of logic and some simple arithmetic put lie to their social-economic plans. It requires willful ignorance of a broad variety of topics to vote for a progressive, unfortunately such ignorance abounds.
The Grendel will be next, even though it ain’t made anymore. Addressing larger issues microscopically never works. Banning a particular handgun becuase you have lost all control of certain parts of your population does nothing.
It’s like my son in High School….the admins there just crank down and restrict them so much. The other day the Principal announced that girls could no longer wear yoga pants (low waisted form fitting pants). Yup – you guessed it – a whole bunch of boys went to school the next day wearing yoga pants…..
Where can I buy one of these super guns these politicians keep talking about? I cant hit anything, let alone kill it past about 20 meters, and this guy is saying this round will pierce soft body armor at 200 meters out of a pistol? By the by, 200 meters is ~200 yards. Were talking a pistol shot at two football fields…
Hell, I’ve hit paper plates with consistency at that distance with a .45 auto. Like to give one of those a try.
The FN57 was my first handgun, still have it and adore it, though it spends most of the time in the safe these days.
Say what you will about the stopping power, ammo price, etc. Incredibly fun gun to shoot and very very forgiving. The few friends I’ve introduced to shooting over the years all loved it. At 7yd you can basically spank, yank, and jerk the trigger all you want and still keep rounds in about a dinner plate sized area.
Shhhhhhh…don’t tell them the Tokarev can do the same thing at 1/3 of the price.
“Taxpayer-tit-sucker”? I’d say about 1/2 meter lower on the male of the species would be a better definition.
It takes a steel cored bullet in the 5.7 to go through a cops vest and that’s at close range. That guy at FT Hood used it because of its high capacity mags and no muzzle rise. He needed that so he could make head shots at point blank range
Why does it seem that so many ignorant political mouth pieces keep pushing? Are they that desperate to bring tensions to a breaking point in this Country? It would give them plenty excuse to ban guns all together if SHTF, but these politicians are oblivious to the fact that they would be at the top of many people’s list….
Almost as bad as a religious nut hoping for “Armageddon”
holyshit the comments are hilarious “you dont need a fiveseven, this gun and this gun will also go through a cops vest!”
i dont know much about guns but i love smgs and the p90 is by far my favorite gun. i always heard the p90 was the matapolicia, not the handgun. i want a fiveseven now too.
this is america dude we can have our guns. some old chump in congress shouldnt have any say in what machines we own. and that bullshit about it being designed to kill, no shit, over half the guns in existence were built with the intent to kill other humans. most people i know who have weird guns like p90s or fivesevens only own them because they are passionate about guns and just like having, collecting, and firing them off.some people like to cook, some build cars, some collect, fire and build guns. just humans doing their thing.
Comments are closed.