One of the most enduring scenes in movie history to anyone over 40 at least is the one of young Texas frontier boy Travis Coates tearfully having to put his dog, Old Yeller, down due to rabies. As the dog, who got rabies after saving the family from being attacked by a rabid wolf and being bitten in the process, sits growling and foaming at the mouth in a shed. Young Travis takes the rifle from his mother saying, “He was my dog. I’ll do it.”
One of the reasons this scene has touched so many viewers over the years is because of the universal realization that sometimes, doing the right thing isn’t the thing we want to do. That’s called responsibility, something gradually becoming in short supply these days. But it also touches so many people because quite simply, our love for dogs.
An old adage in movie making is you want people to hate a villain, have him kill an innocent person, want them to really hate him, have him kill someone’s dog. At the same time, there are viewers who can gleefully watch people die by the handful in a movie but lose it if an animal is taken out. Not sure what that says about us as humans short of many of us identify innocence with our pets.
Phoenix Dog Park Tragedy
So, now it seems Phoenix, in a state with a robust gun owning population, has a full-blown controversy on its hands after a man shot two dogs off their leash in a dog park. The dogs allegedly charged the man and a friend aggressively. The man is claiming self-defense, and so far, the police investigation seems to support that. But pet owners and others are livid and want the man arrested.
The incident took place at Desert Horizon Park in north Phoenix last week. According to AZCentral, the Phoenix Police Department responded to the scene last Thursday afternoon, where two dogs were fatally shot after allegedly charging at the man and his friend. The dogs’ owner reportedly had them off-leash at the time, a violation of park rules.
Phoenix Police Sgt. Mayra Reeson confirmed that the initial investigation aligned with the shooter’s claim of self-defense, leaving the case closed pending any new evidence. The incident, oddly, is not isolated, as it follows another dog-related fatality earlier this year. In that case, a man stabbed a dog he felt was threatening him. That dog also was not on a leash as required by park rules. That man also did not face charges. Both cases have park goers and Phoenix residents pointing to a rising concern over pet safety in public spaces.
Legal Perspective
The legal framework surrounding such cases is complex.
Criminal defense attorney Dwane Cates told AZFamily News that potential charges against the shooter could take time to develop through police investigation. And charges may also never come if it remains determined he acted in a reasonable belief that he and his friend were in danger.
“Well, he could be charged with endangerment. He could be charged with discharging weapons in city limits,” said Cates. “Now again, if he’s justified in doing it by self-defense, then none of those charges will come. But there is a bevy of charges they could charge him with.”
According to Arizona Gun Law Armed & Educated by Arizona attorney Craig Rosenstein:
While there is no specific justification statute that describes when force may be used against animals, Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 13-417 does describe a “necessity” defense. In pertinent part, it says that:
“Conduct that would otherwise constitute an offense is justified if a reasonable person was compelled to engage in the proscribed conduct and the person had no reasonable alternative to avoid imminent public or private injury greater than the injury that might reasonably result from the person’s own conduct.”
That’s a lot of legalese. What it means in English is that if you have no reasonable alternative but to engage in something that would be a crime in order to prevent a greater harm than your “crime” would cause, you may be able to assert the defense of necessity.
In the book, Rosenstein offers an example, from a legal point, aligned with what the man in the park is claiming:
You are being attacked by an animal at large. Reasonably fearing death or serious physical injury, you shoot the animal.
And then offers this response:
In this example, there are two “crimes” that have (arguably) been committed. The first is discharging a firearm in city limits; the other is animal cruelty by intentionally or knowingly causing the death of an animal. However, assuming you had no reasonable alternative, the harms that result from those “crimes” are far outweighed by the risk of you dying or receiving a serious physical injury.
Pet Owners/Animal Lovers Angered
Legal reasoning aside and emotions front and center, the community response has been varied in reaction to the shooting with some residents calling for accountability of the man and expressing disbelief at the presence of a firearm in a public park. Natasha Siera and Caryle Stein, local residents, voiced concerns over safety and the appropriateness of carrying guns in such settings to AZFamily. Stein has even taken to distributing flyers with photos of the man who shot the dogs to alert park visitors about the individual, whom she deems extremely dangerous, though the shooter has not been arrested or charged.
“A dog was shot unnecessarily in the middle of a park where other people could have been injured,” Stein said on camera with AZFamily. “I don’t know anyone walking around with a gun looking to kill dogs.”
It’s doubtful the man in the park was “walking around looking to kill dogs” either. And in fact, he could be just as distraught over what transpired as those who are upset over the dog’s deaths. But no one knows that for sure because the man hasn’t spoken publicly. What is known is that Stein’s actions could land her in her own legal mess, at least civilly, if the man remains uncharged by police and decides to file suit against her apparent slander and public intimidation.
That said, it is also possible the man over reacted, too. Most of us know someone who has an almost irrational fear of dogs (though why would you walk in a dog park if you had a fear of dogs) and many of us have been charged by a dog that seemed aggressive but may have only been overzealous in their excitement at seeing someone new. Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference if a dog running at you is about to bite you or wants to be petted, and you may not know until the last second. Despite that, it seems a lot of people are drawing their own conclusions without knowing all the facts.
“I think he definitely needs to be held accountable and made an example out of just because who is more threatening? A guy with a gun at the park. Why are you at the park with a gun? That’s just crazy to me,” said Siera when interviewed by AZFamily.
All Laws Need to be Enforced
Ultimately, the dog park incident raises significant legal and societal questions about the balance between self-defense rights and the responsibilities of pet owners and individuals in public spaces. The requirement for dogs to be leashed in public parks is a clear regulation intended to prevent such tragedies, yet the enforcement and awareness around these rules often go unenforced. In all of this, there is something for responsible pet owners to consider as well.
Fluffy your pit bull may cuddle warmly with you on the couch while you watch The Bachelor at night, but let him get loose in a park and run barreling toward a small child whose armed parent is only feet away and things could go sideways in a hurry for Fluffy. Even if Fluffy just wants to play.
Only time will tell if additional eye witness accounts lead to criminal charges being filed or if in the eyes of the law this remains an open and shut case of self-defense. The pet owners always have the option of attempting civil action as well. Regardless of how this plays out, the case underscores the need for a careful consideration of laws, regulations and enforcement to protect all parties involved, whether two-legged or four-legged, in public spaces.
Love me some dogs. You just dont know if you werent there. Doggies always look nice in the family pictures, never know though. If theyre big enough to damage and they act like they might attack, whatre you supposed to do
“they act like they might attack“
“Might”?
No way around it, more guns means more shooting.
“No way around it, more guns means more shooting.”
100% false
More careless dog owners mean more mauling.
minor49iq…”No way around it, more guns means more shooting.”
Are your trying to say if you had a firearm you would willy nilly shoot people, dogs, etc? If so you should red flag yourself, you are controlled by inanimate objects, no telling what a nitwit like you would do with a motor vehicle, etc.
Facts counter your lies, Mass gun violence down 48% so far this year, top criminologist says
https://www.thecentersquare.com/national/article_79c47fc0-e178-11ee-aeb8-f74c517dc1b6.html?utm_source=referral&utm_medium=offthepress&utm_campaign=home
I’m glad to see that you folks are citing the GVA as a trusted authority, we’re making progress here!
From the link you provided:
“As for crime, it’s: ‘Good news is no news.’ … mass shootings by the Gun Violence Archive definition (4+ shot, dead or survive) are down 48% so far this year,” Fox wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter.“
But…. The killings are actually up, more dead humans this year. Your use of surveys just counting the number of ‘incidents’ while ignoring the number of dead humans is intellectually dishonest.
“Though shootings are down, the number of deaths tied to this year’s mass shootings—75—is higher than most recent years. With the exception of last year—which saw 102 mass shooting deaths in the first six weeks—more people have been killed this year during that time period than any other year dating back to 2019.“
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mollybohannon/2024/02/13/us-mass-shootings-hit-3-year-low-for-first-six-weeks-of-2024-but-deaths-remain-high/amp/
As you say…
“Facts counter your lies”
Having seen the results of dog attacks on people and live stock I’m not willingto take any chances even more so with multiple dogs. You can kiss my hairy *.
No way around it, less guns means more biting.
mo’ teefus mean mo’ stitches.
I’m ok with more shooting if it protects human life or prevents serious bodily injury to humans.
“No way around it, more guns means more shooting.”
Provable lie, and Federal DOJ data verifies that.
Your chance of being killed by ‘gun violence’ today is roughly one-half as much today as it was in the early 1990s.
And back then, there were 10s of millions *less* guns in America.
Lots more guns, and one-half as much less murders.
Looks like a *lot* more guns equals a lot less crime to me..
While it can vary by area the residents of Philly who engage in dogfighting have an irritating habit of dropping their dogs off in the woods when they get to be too much to manage. Winter typically handles the issue but they do occasionally form packs and have attacked hikers over the years. While most any dog could be dangerous if big enough I only ever saw pit blends go after humans often enough to warrant being shot. Cue pitbull apologists saying their dog is fine (if so doesn’t apply here and this is a limited data set)
That’s why I’m glad it’s codified in our State Statutes:
NH RSA 466:28 Killing Dogs Legalized. – Any person may kill a dog that suddenly assaults the person while such person is peaceably walking or riding without the enclosure of its owner or keeper; and any person may kill a dog that is found out of the enclosure or immediate care of its owner or keeper worrying, wounding, or killing sheep, lambs, fowl, or other domestic animals.
That being said, I’ld rather just have the person pay me for my livestock worried, injured or killed by a dog that just got loose. If it happens more than once, well that’s an entirely different manner. A couple of chickens or a duck are pretty cheap. A calf or pig entirely different. Some dogs just want to herd sheep. I’ve seen it. I can tell the difference. I don’t want to shoot the neighbor kids dog.
“I think he definitely needs to be held accountable and made an example out of just because who is more threatening? A guy with a gun at the park. Why are you at the park with a gun? That’s just crazy to me,”
Why do you not have a gun on you in the park?
Street level violent crime is, on average, (varies with season in this range) 30% to 65% more likely to happen in or immediately adjacent city parks.
47% of seriously life-threatening injury dog attacks on humans happen by pet dogs who are unleashed.
So back to the question > “A guy with a gun at the park. Why are you at the park with a gun?”
Well, aside from the possibility of being a target of violent crime — You, you are the reason too as you let your dog roam free off leash in violation of the ordinance.
And it just so happens that Phoenix is among the top four cities in the nation with the highest incidents of city park ‘off leash’ dog attacks AND violent crime attacks.
As soon as I read the dog owner was in violation of the park rules, and the dogs were off-leash, I did not need to read any further.
“The dogs allegedly charged the man and a friend aggressively“
“charged”?
So we can shoot when we’re ‘charged aggressively’ towards us? Interesting.
So the shooter was in the dog park and a dog ‘charged’ him?
If you don’t want to interact with dogs, don’t go to the dog park.
Is it entirely impossible for you to comprehend that this man was probably doing his normal EDC routine when his friend said “Hey dude we gotta take Rusty to the dog park real quick” and that’s why he was present, he tagged along like any decent friend would when minor inconveniences pop up.
If you don’t want to interact with guns don’t go where they may legally be carried.
Miner49er, you evidently don’t comprehend what you read.
So what is your answer to my question:
‘So we can shoot when we’re ‘charged aggressively’ towards us?‘
Yes. You can shoot if charged by an aggressive dog without a leash. Of course you have to use wisdom and context. You dont go blowing a little Feefee away just for the hell of it. Any more questions
“So what is your answer to my question:
‘So we can shoot when we’re ‘charged aggressively’ towards us?‘ ”
ok, once again, learn what context is.
apply some context and define … “So we can shoot when we’re ‘charged aggressively’ towards us?‘ ”
I’ve had enough experience with you not applying context to know your questions are often baiting so you can launch into more stupid to disrupt discussion into an entirely different direction so you can eventually scream your mental health illness obsession “TRUMPPPP!”. so apply some context to your question.
do you mean an aggressive dog or an aggressive human?
Dogs can be sketchy, for the most playful behavior doesn’t include “charging”. However if you want to extinguish the threat before waiting for the animal to display more evidence of threat to make it a cleaner case of self defense that’s up to you. I can tell you now simply shooting any dog that runs towards you will get to you put in jail.
This case the man seemed to have sufficient evidence of immediate threat to appease the cops.
It was not a dog park. It is a park for families with children.
Miner, I like your question. I assume it’s genuine so I’ve provided a thoughtful response below:
I think if a person at a public park is charged by an aggressive dog, the person could reasonably deploy a legal firearm in self-defense to prevent serious bodily injury or death.
HOWEVER: if that person is unfamiliar with and untrained in the use of deadly defensive weapons, that person should not deploy because they could reasonably endanger others in the vicinity. This person is a terrific candidate for a rape whistle.
Not a dog park. That’s either a misrepresentation or a lie. It’s a small community park. No dog facilities.
in my part of the world, outside of your property and a designated, and fenced, leash-free dog park, your dog must be on a leash. Dog owners are by law responsible for their dog’s actions and are held accountable for any deaths or injuries inflicted to people and other dogs.
I’ve had several thousand dollar vet bills caused by someone’s “Fluffy” going from happy and playful to full-on psycho-killer in the blink of an eye. Now I check which dogs are in the dog park before going in. If I don’t know the dog, I don’t go in.
Sometimes I think not only should some dogs be neutered but so should the owners as well.
I have 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks (brothers) who are sweet dogs but I will not take them to a dog park. I’m not worried about them attacking someone/someone’s dog but if one of mine gets ‘jumped’ by another dog I figure the brother would then get involved. Most dogs run around and have fun but, as they say, it only takes one to screw up a day.
I carry a gun and a knife everyday. Do not blame the shooter in the slightest. My dogs are ‘my people’.
I don’t trust dog parks. Too many variables between untrained dogs and untrained people. I wouldn’t risk my dogs at a dog park.
Dog parks = crap that owners don’t pickup
Dogs need land and fences and Cheeto Puffs.
And little bitty cats that climb trees real good.
Plus one on the dog parks. Me and the rotty just go if theres a very very small # of people there, and leave if things arent up to snuff. Nearest park is an off leash park
when our boy was just barely walking we took him to a beachside park, not a dog park. at some pre determined time the champagne socialists i am surrounded by brought their pooches down for social hour, unleashed, which i’m always glad to see since i hate rules and they were not in compliance. a small herding breed coaxed kiddo into the pack, causing a prattfall, no tears. i was fine with letting him get comfy around canines, then karen approached. “you might want to pick up your son, we have a doggy playgroup daily at five.” animal control would have loved to write half a dozen five hondo tickets but i’m not calling. she received a piece of my mind i did not have to spare.
Maryland state parks, preserves, forests handguns are verboten (with exceptions for hunting).
And can take you hours to get a cop especially if cell phone coverage is spotty. Where is the clause in the second amendment that creates the exception for parks.
Dogs are wonderful creatures, many superior in temperament to the average human. But still, a mans life is more valuable than a dogs. So I won’t criticize the man unless rhe facts show he was in the wrong.
In my opinion, the average dog is an exemplary entity while most humans are vermin.
This guy should hand out flyers with her face on it that say “reckless dog owner.”
Seriously though, who knows if these dogs were vicious or not except the people there. The owner seems like the “we were so careful” type. Maybe the prosecutor should make some reckless endangerment charges a thing. I’d be real curious to know if these dogs had a history.
My mom had a neighbor who killed their cat and were eating it, and the neighbor was all “they’re just playing with it.” I told her to get a piece, you never know when they’ll turn on a person next.
Lol the neighbor at the cat, or the neighbor’s dogs? Thats some wacked out neighbors if its the former
* ate the cat
i’m fine with your neighbors eating cat, but she should teach her kids not to play with their food.
Pentagon Assoc. Director: Mobilize Nat’l Guard to Grab All the Guns > https://www.shootingnewsweekly.com/2024/03/14/pentagon-assoc-director-mobilize-natl-guard-to-grab-all-the-guns/
“I think we should repeal the Second Amendment and take the guns all away!’ says Jason Beck, who has a classified security clearance and works for the Department of Defense. Beck, who uses a fake name Aiden Grey in his meetings with a disguised James O’Keefe, describes his extremist policies, including ‘mobilizing the national guard’ to confiscate guns from people’s homes. Beck says he wants a ‘monopoly on state violence,’ a concept he describes as ‘We {the government), are the only ones with guns.’ ”
and now they finally come out and say it, an official of the U.S. Government, a Pentagon Associate Director … what we knew all along what Biden had in mind (remember his threat to use war making military force against law abiding American citizen gun owners and do away with the 2nd Amendment)… Once again proving, for the ‘thousandth’ time in the last three years of the Biden administration, the greatest source of violent extremism in the United States is the left wing.
Yikes
Not a fan of the proliferation of pits & vicious dogs nearby. Like next door with non-English speaking “who knows what” “newcomers” to paraphrase Dims. We have a nearby dog park & the folks who take their mutt out “seem” to watch over them well. I saw Old Yeller in the theater & I shed no tears…
this is the video of this left wing … listen to this guy, wants to do away with the senate, pack the court, all sorts of devious plans to overthrow the country and install what is a communist dictatorship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBhz_m0r1lQ
What a f*ing ******.
Most alphabet people think this way; they want gun control. Any one who claims otherwise is lying.
Let me qualify that. ALL of them think that way; those who say otherwise are lying.
How many times have I been to a park with my own dog, and using a leash as the bylaws demand, when someone, usually a woman, lets her dogs loose to run around and terrorize others?
Follow the law, and your dogs won’t get shot. It’s pretty simple.
Not a fan of the proliferation of pits & vicious dogs nearby. Like next door with non-English speaking “who knows what” “newcomers” to paraphrase Dims. We have a nearby dog park & the folks who take their mutt out “seem” to watch over them well. I saw Old Yeller in the theater & I shed no tears…
Of course the dogs look tame and friendly in photos; I wouldn’t expect the owner to keep photographs of them growling and snarling. Proves nothing. Just like every story about a dead hood rat includes a pic of the deceased in his choir robe.
If the park rules are pets are to be leashed, then follow the rules. No problem.
After thinking about it. I, myself, would probably almost take a bite from a dog before i mow it down. Im gonna make sure. Do i expect everyone else to do the same if they see my 90 lb Rottweiler charging them- probably not.
When I was 16 I was cornered by a dog pack in the woods in central Ohio. I had no choice but to shoot a large dog through the head to stop the attack.
When my son was a toddler a neighbors loose doberman jumped our fence into our yard and attacked my son. I destroyed that dog with a hoe.
An unleashed dog is a threat to humans and other animals.
And miner49er is continuing his descent into a parody of himself.
chickagoo has dog packs on south and west sides. i read an article that said the alpha is always a female due to the boys waiting for estrus. animal control targets her, once determined.
next month i’ll discuss the difference between flying, red, gray and black squirrels.
jwm, thanks for those stories. They are part of why I love the comments here.
A few years back I was walking at a public park on my lunch break. A German Shephard wearing a tactical vest escaped from a house across the street and sprinted right at me. It was barking like crazy and snapping its teeth. It stopped 10′ from me. I had no escape or weapon. I slowly backed up and talked calmly. A VERY long few minutes later the owner called it back and locked the door. I haven’t been that scared in a long time. Had I been carrying, that dog would have been well-ventilated. It was an experience that encouraged me to carry.
I own a black lab duck hunting dog. He is a great friend. But I go to great lengths to make sure he never gets a chance to do what that dog did.
keep your mutts under control and this wont happen
Except pitbulls who should be proactively shot on sight
I’m loving this. Except for minor it seems the consensus is that you should defend yourself from a dog attack. Up to and including deadly force. But, if LE shoots a dog that is attacking they are vilified.
I would say it matters if LE has a valid warrant on the correct address and/or is being overzealous to justify budget/existence.
Friends,
According to the website, this is NOT a dog park. The park seems to be designed for families with young children. Many of the comments mention “dog parks” as if the shooting happened in a designated dog park.
Was wondering that when reading, as dog parks seem typically intended as a place for dogs to run and play off-leash.
The suburbanites who own dogs I’ve been exposed to are shockingly ignorant of the primal nature of dogs. Of course it’s nice and friendly around you: you feed it! Assuming that your dog is going to act the same in all situations is just dumb. Keep your dog on a leash, you are not in control of it unless you are physically attached to it.
As to Gadsden’s question about LE being vilified: that’s really just about Feds. If a local police officer is forced to shoot a dog in self defense, either while doing their job or just out and about, that’s justified. The jack-booted thugs enforcing the whims of our benevolent overlords have a long history of shooting dogs in order to achieve maximum psychological damage on those they are making an example of.
Steam, when you kick in the door of a crack dealer expecting to find copious amounts of cocaine and cash it’s reasonable to assume that he’s not fostering the dogs until they can find their forever homes.
There is a reason for leash laws.
A tragedy that could have been easily prevented by following the rules, but some people don’t think the rules apply to them.
Phoenix Horizon is not a “Dog Park”. There appear to be no canine facilities. There is a playground, Basketball court, Volleyball court, twe baseball fields, and police substation.
Why would you have a gun in a park? Because plenty of dead people are found in parks.
“Stein!” “Bad Jew!, Bad Jew!”
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