ar15 trigger AR-15 safe fire
(Dan Z. for TTAG)

I have written extensively on the subject of bump-fire stocks (or “bump-stock-type devices” (BSTD), as the ATF so charmingly refers to them), and why they matter beyond their suddenly being designated as “machineguns” or their uncompensated taking. Too extensively for some, who didn’t want “to die on Bump Stock Hill,” when we had other things to worry about.

I warned of the “semi-auto problem” of any semi-automatic firearm capable of being equipped with a BSTD magically being designated a machine because it is “easily converted” with a simple stock. I warned again when attorneys began making that very argument.

And then the family of a victim of the Mandalay Bay shooting made that very argument in Nevada state court, seeking to sue several firearm manufacturers with the claim that they had lost Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act defense by unlawfully manufacturing and selling machineguns…because AR-15s are so easily converted with BSTDs.

The defendants in Parsons v. Colt et al. asked a federal district court to dismiss the lawsuit. On April 10, 2020, US District Court judge Andrew P. Gordon (Obama appointee) refused to dismiss the plaintiffs’ wrongful death claim. The case will now move forward in Nevada state courts.

Gordon used a set of lies regarding the design and history of the AR platform to rationalize his finding that the manufacturers somehow knew they were making arms that could easily be converted to machineguns, despite the fact that even the ATF claimed otherwise, until they changed their pseudo-minds in late 2017 (and didn’t make it retroactively official until 2019).

From Gordon’s ruling on the wrongful death portion of the defense’s motion to dismiss:

The PLCAA permits “action[s] in which a manufacturer or seller of a qualified product knowingly violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought.” 15 U.S.C. § 7903(5)(A)(iii). The Parsons’ wrongful death claim is premised on the defendants’ violations of 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(4) and NRS § 202.350(1)(b), which prohibit firearms manufacturers and dealers from selling “machinegun[s].” Machine gun is defined as:

any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

26 U.S.C. § 5845. Nevada’s definition of “machine gun” mirrors the federal definition. NRS § 202.253. The ATF has defined “designed to shoot” to include “those weapons which have not previously functioned as machineguns but possess design features which facilitate full automatic fire by simple modification or elimination of existing component parts.” ATF Ruling 82-2.

In the eyes of the federal court judge, under Nevada law, any semi-auto that can be equipped with a BSTD is already a machinegun. If you live in Nevada, you might as well go all out and install drop-in autosears, lightning links, or whatever.

Always wanted a giggle switch for your GLOCK? Go for it; the penalty is the same, as Gordon sees it.

I can almost guarantee that other violence-enabling victim disarmers are scrambling to use the lawsuit’s wrongful death arguments here in similar lawsuits given the reasoning of this Constitutionally-challenged gun grabber in a black dress.

Clock midnight HANSCOB
Bigstock

Gordon just moved the clock forward a little closer to HANSOB Time.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

156 COMMENTS

      • This kind of thing is why citizens have sometimes reacted with actions like tarring and feathering of overreaching, arrogant officials. This is at least as wrong as trying to nullify a Constitutional Amendment with local court rulings. In fact, it’s almost as stupid as some California voters, as evidenced by your existence as a member of Congress.

      • Eric Swalwel is a complete idiot and only wants attention. That ding bat never received 1% of the democrat support, so even they knew what kind of a trash he is.

      • HEY SWALWEL YOUR A DISGRACE TO THIS COUNTRY AND THE AMERICAN WAY WITH YOUR CRYASS PUNK ATTITUDE ABOUT GUNS.
        I SURE HOPE TO GOD WHEN THEY DECIDE TO COME GET OUR GUNS THATSA YOU COME AND TRY TO GET MINE .OKBOY WE CLEAR+

    • Madness, indeed.

      By this logic, every passenger vehicle on the road today must therefore be deemed an illegal killing machine, since there are available accessories that allow the modification of the engine’s capabilities to exceed the speed limit by by a factor of 2 or more. If all such motors can be altered, then they are – by extension of the definition – potential killing machines and must be removed from private ownership.

      • Let’s go right off the deep end with this idea:

        Lets ban all liquids since they can be used to cause death in sufficient quantities.

        /sarc

    • Well, if this spreads I WILL convert all semis I have access to, to FULL AUTO, it won’t be easy, but with a little work machinery and parts it can be done(not easily though). Why not if the PENALTY for having an approved semi auto is now considered a Machine gun(which they are not),is the same as illegally owning one is the same, what do you have to lose?. Nothing and they are going to start a damned REVOLUTION if this sh*t is not reversed.
      I have a question, the ATF doesn’t even designate under their definition of what an AR Clone lower receiver IS,it states emphatically that IT is NOT a weapon.
      So, by their RULES right now as of this minute all AR Clones are not even classified FIREARMS,and lowers should not even have to be registered.( so we have quite the dilemma don’t we?)

      • Nothing but talk. Not reversing this will not cause a REVOLUTION, because conservatives have shown they will do nothing but complain. If allowing a muslime illegal alien into the White House wasn’t enough to start something, this will do NOTHING! This nation has been loosing ground every year no matter who is in office and it will continue to do so because we no longer have men who will “support and defend” the Constitution like our forefathers did!

        God told us in prophesy that evil will succeed in the end times under the anti-Christ, and what we are seeing is proof. No matter what happens we refuse to take up arms and remove the tyranny!

        • Conservatives take the name because we believe in the founding documents of this country. While I understand your frustration, please review this from the Declaration of Independence:

          Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.

          Such is our patient sufferance, but it HAS a limit.

        • @Cliff,

          Quite right, but note the extremely important section that is often under appreciated:

          “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

          Not only are we “allowed” to challenge the petty tyrants, we are mandated the first Founding Document of our government to do it. And note it says “throw off”, and not “overthrow”. The difference is profound…if I’m acting within my authority and you don’t like it, so you attack me, you’re unlawfully attempting to “overthrow” me. But if you’re minding your own business and I exceed my authority and encroach upon you, you may act to throw me off. The latter is an ethical act of self-defense and preservation.

          The Left seeks to ignore this sentence – this command! – found in the DOI and remove our ability to throw them off.

        • Passivity does not maintain peace, freedom, and liberty. Submission leads only to enslavement. The only way to regain those invaluable rights, once again comes at loss of blood sweat and tears. All painful memories of lost friends, and loved ones lives. The scars upon civilizations the foolish chose to forget, only to be repeated, and unlearned. History intentionally made to become forgotten by the easily offended.

      • Doszap-The end of a metal coathanger can be made into a swift link, it is not that hard to convert a semiauto to full, when the 10 year fed time is no longer a deterrent.

    • Yep.

      Bumpstocks as stupid as they are, STILL REQUIRE A PULL OF THE TRIGGER FOR EACH SINGLE SHOT TO BE FIRED.

      …And do NOT therefore meet the definition, ANY definition, of an Automatic Weapon or Machine Gun.

    • This trend toward sweeping authoritarianism, effectively making law by executive fiat or judicial decree rather than by elected legislative bodies, is deeply disturbing. Coupled with the rush to print money at a rate that will soon exceed credit capacity (if it hasn’t already)…well, very bad things have usually followed when a nation follows the path which many people in the USA seem to favor at this point.

      • Only a low life bastard would put his own views this far forward o f people who voted to have him represent their views. Go to hell you evil moron.

    • The way I look at it is it’s only State Court, when all done in Nevada, it will get an appeal to the US supreme court, which should overturn anything Gordon states, he’s an idiot.

  2. this is not surprising considering everything the anti-gunners have been done and are doing but we can win in the long run

  3. And just like that machine guns are common use again and protected by the 2A as it should always have been. Strong work, grabbers

  4. nice. turn them in.
    semi autos still fire one round per trigger action (setting binary aside for the moment, and that’s still two actions) no matter what you attach to it externally.
    currently it is the bumpstock itself that is a machine gun, as dipshitty as that is.

    • Actually NOT! A bumpstock is nothing more than a device that acts as your finger making each pulling action on the trigger! It doesn’t operate anything like an auto-sear!

  5. So wait, can they sue the Federal Government since the ATF has knowingly allowed manufactures to sell millions of “machine guns” since the 1984 gun control Act?

  6. … and this is why Cocaine Mitch’s court packing spree is the most important thing accomplished during Trump’s 1st term.

    The way I see it, none of Obama’s appointees are legitimate as he was never president.

      • Why listen to an ex commie. Or should I say commie since they are still commies.
        He played Zarnitsa (Зарница) as a kid killing Americans and graduated to Orlyonok where he got to play with real weapons.

        • You know I’ve throat punched people for far less than what you just wrote? Right? You’re making about as much sense of someone accusing an Auschwitz survivor of being a nazi.

        • Typical Russian commie troll statement. How comfortable are the chairs there at the Internet Research Agency or as you are more familiar with Агентство интернет-исследований comrade?

        • I figured he would be back by now. You know he gets 85 rubles for every post he makes as a Армия троллей России. Two Post will almost buy him a half a liter of vodka. Fun times right comrade?

        • muh’ Russian trolls… cry harder SJW, cry harder. I have quite a few guns that I need to lube with your tears.

          FYI: I’m only partially slavic, not remotely Russian. But hey, I guess all us slavic types look the same to you racists? Right?

        • Part slavic , sure commie. Noticed your picture on one of the gaming sites. Thought you were on Prednisone and was going to almost feel sorry for you. I bet people try talking Spanish to you a lot don’t they? You might consider shaving the taint strip off your chin if you still have it.

          So you and vlad are buddies I take it since he supposedly springs from around the same area you claim to be from.

      • No joke, questioning the validity of right Obama administration almost 4 years removed from the election to determine his successor is absurd at best, and gives validity to the crazies who question the validity of 45’S presidency more fuel for their insane electoral college argument dumpster fire.

        While we relitigate the past few years mistakes people are moving through courts and making real legal arguments to get to their desired ends.

        Get it together.

    • Pwrserge,

      Yup. Obama held that office illegally. See the video from Sheriff Joe Arpio.

      Unfortunately, we will never see the DOJ prosecute.

  7. “Modification or elimination of existing component parts” somehow translates as “replacement with an entirely different part”???

  8. You mean I can put a battering ram on a Prius and turn it into a tank? Or I can put nails in a bat and call it a hole puncher? Or are steel toed boots really concealed weapons? Is a pressure cooker really a bomb? Or is that soda bottle really a Molotov Cocktail? Ban everything that can be used for destruction…remove hands and feet from newborns. Insane democRat Ratbassturds.
    Bottom line is the democRat Party concocted sleazy laws to deny gun rights from freed slaves throughout Jim Crow. They never cease reaching into their democRat Party ancestor’s KKK Gun Control playbook, they know they can feed anything to politically inept history illiterates. It’s a court’s play on words that would make Jim Crow Gun Control democRats proud. Good news is…It doesn’t fly.

  9. Maybe now is the right time to actually use US v. Miller decision to end the NFA restrictions on machine guns. Clearly they are of efficacy to the military and hence, as cited in Miller, are specifically protected for the People. Enough of the “weapons of war” BS.

    • Miller was never ruled on by the SCoTUS. It was simply remanded to the lower Appellate Court since Miller and his attorney were conveniently indisposed at the time of their hearing.

  10. When I first saw a bump stock I laughed. I thought this thing is a novelty. It was and is. Next I thought it will become a problem. It has. I just don’t get it. If you want to shoot a full auto weapon. Buy one. Hell, rent one. Dare I say it? Join the military. They’ll pay you to shoot their ammunition. Full auto just doesn’t hold a fascination for me. Fired my first one in 1979. Been shooting them since. It’s just a firearm.

      • Maggot, is the right name for you. Open my safe. Lots of Fudd guns. Also a few of those nasty assault rifles. Gasp! No ARs though. I only own real rifles.

        • To say an AR isn’t a real rifle is pissing in the face of everyone who uses it to defend their lives on a daily basis.

          The more fools like you infighting within this community the easier it is for is to get picked apart.

        • One more thing Maggot. You did see the part about me shooting full auto weapons since 1979. I expect you were not even breathing air then. If I wanted to shoot full auto today, I can be doing it in 30 minutes. It just ain’t that special.

        • AR’s aren’t real rifles? Hmm…that would be news to all the criminals and terrorists shot and killed with them. What constitutes a “real rifle” to you?

        • I called you a fudd because you seem like the type that says, “I don’t see a need for it, so I don’t care if daddy takes it from YOU.” You probably hailed the bump stock ban as a victory!
          And the problem with, “just buying one” is that they’re exorbitantly expensive for us poors, plus you get to register them with daddy so he knows where to look when he outlaws them. Full auto/ select fire should be avail at Wal-Mart (you know, if they weren’t virtue signaling sellouts).

        • Kyle, didn’t say you couldn’t kill someone with an AR. I said I think the weapon platform sucks. I worked a homicide where the weapon of choice was a cast iron skillet. You think I’m going to put this Sig P-220 at my elbow in the safe and replace it with a frying pan? Uh, no. I have a friend from upstate. We met in the 75th Infantry Regiment a very long time ago. When he retired from the fire department he moved down here to get away from draconian taxes and firearms laws. He and his four sons are all armed with H&K 91s and Fudd guns. Very well armed. You couldn’t melt Mark and pour him on an AR. Remember, we were issued them. We know.

        • Maggot, I didn’t hail the bump stock ban as a victory. I despise every firearms control law. I believe you should be able to walk into a Western Auto and buy a 1928 Thompson again. I just think the bump stock is a stupid idea. Wait, not stupid. Silly. But hey, it’s your money. BTW. I’ve used a bump stock. Yawn!

        • Nobody cares about your fudd opinion…. keep it to yourself… And there’s a name for people like you besides fudd…. it’s called SHEEPLE…. AND YOU’RE A CLASSIC EXAMPLE….
          My AR has been a DAMN FAITHFUL AND RELIABLE WEAPON..
          I will use it in combination with the many other styles of rifles I own…. including my HK91 clone…. which also works just as well as the original…. you snobby SOB

        • George, you must care about my opinion. You are sure as shit responding to it. 😆 You like an AR? Go ahead. Based on my decades of experience with them I just don’t like them. There are better rifles.

        • “I’ve been shooting full auto since 1979!” For someone who isn’t particularly impressed with full auto, you sure do shoot it a lot!
          No, I don’t have a bump stock. Never cared for one (I wasn’t a newby on the train after Vegas, I had already passed on a bump stock in favor of a binary trigger long before Vegas!), but I vehemently defended them to the president (via emails) and the ATF (via the comment period) and anyone else that would listen!

        • That you keep calling people “maggots” makes me question whether you were really in the 75th. You also never explained what a “real” rifle is to you. Having been issued M-16s and M-4s tells you nothing, because the ones the military has used have varied in quality throughout the years.

        • Scratch the first part of that last post, I didn’t realize you were responding to a person with that name, so I apologize to you. Thought you were name-calling. But you do need to explain what to you is a “real” rifle IMO.

        • “full auto aint that special”

          lol from the guy who says hes been shooting it for 40 years. Not shit it aint that special to you anymore.

      • Maggot, I was paid to shoot them. Everything from a an M-2 to a Glock 18. Once again. Yawn! What is the mystery?

        • There’s a selector switch on the side there, you didn’t HAVE to shoot full auto. Just sayin

        • Maggot. yes I did have to shoot them full auto.Well some them. It was called qualifying. Besides, the M-2, M-60, Browning BAR, FN-MAG, 1918, Bren Gun, MG-42, etc.They were fun. Free ammo and all. There wasn’t a selector switch. It was just plain full auto or nothing. Jesus, it’s tedious educating the ignorant.

    • Would it have ever occurred to you that the bump stock was legal posturing to hopefully change machine gun restrictions that has since unfortunately backfired in epic fashion?

      • Road, first the bump stock was never intended to set the stage for the repeal of the NFA. To suggest it is laughable. Next my experience with the AR platform began in 1979 and ended in 2014. I was issued one in one form or another for decades. It is a shit rifle. I understand why people buy them. 1. It’s all they know. 2. It’s available. 3. It’s inexpensive. Save your pennies. H&K, Galil, FN-FAL, etc are still out there.

        • While it’s certainly arguable that a BMW M-Series is engineered for higher performance and greater reliability than, say, a Toyota, it’s somewhat foolish to chide someone for buying a Toyota just because you tried one and you prefer the BMW. Smacks of elitism.

          If it’s reliable and goes bang when I pull the trigger when I need it to, then my AR is good enough for me.

        • I haz, you left out a critical component of that analysis – what happens when you hit a goblin? Do they lie down and die, right then, or do they keep coming as they slowly bleed out??

          Now, I have become SLIGHTLY less antagonistic toward the anemic 5.56 poodleshooter round, for a variety of reasons, and I will admit that the current iteration of the AR platform (at least one of the decent ones) is a pretty solid platform (but if you like the platform, consider .300 Blackout, .450 SOCOM or 6.5 Grendel), but that doesn’t mean I think it’s a viable rifle.

          It is ADEQUATE for home defense (and, because of the low recoil, usable by noobs who don’t/won’t spend the time and effort on the range to get really good), I would much rather have an AR-10/FN-FAL/Galil, etc. than a poodleshooter. Yes, I CAN kill a goblin with a 5.56 . . . and eventually, I could paint a room with a toothbrush, too. Doesn’t mean I’d select one as my choice to repaint.

        • All 3 of your “better” rifles are antiquated weapons. Not a single one of them shoots more accurately than even a budget AR. I know because I’ve owned all of those weapons. I’ve sold all of them and you know what I have in my safe? AR-15s. You saying the fal, galil and H&K 91 are superior, is completely subjective. And you know what they say about opinions…

        • Back in ye goode olde days in the early 1990s downunder, I owned a AR15 SP1 and a SKK (SKS modified to take AK magazines). Guess which one had the most issues with jamming, feeding, or ejection failures? Hint, it wasn’t the AR15. Only 3 failures with the Colt in about 5000 rounds. All were dud primers from the cheap Chinese ammo I was using. Same rounds failed in a bolt action as well.

        • @lampofdiogenes sounds like your another person who gets his training from watching re runs of the ATeam. Do you think, your just gonna shoot someone once? With the Geissele trigger in my AR I can shoot 4-5 shots in well under a second. Do you think bullet technology is still in the 60s? Bonded projectiles today in .224 caliber are expanding to 3/8” with full weight retention! Nobody is arguing that a .308/7.62×51 is a superior round, but to say the .223/5.56 is a weak round is just from ignorance. Let me put a burst of 5 rounds in your chest, then you tell me how lame or how just “adequate” it truly is. SMH

        • George, I’m sorry, but. I believe you are the idiot. As is anyone who doesn’t own a full power .30 caliber rifle. Or a reliable .556.

        • @Lamp,

          I have both 5.56 and .300 BLK. I enjoy both. Both will effectively stop an attacker.

          But I won’t take the bait for the “but yer M4forgery ain’t no good” nonsense. It’s like a “which caliber is best” argument…never ending and unproductive. Use what you wish, and I’ll use what I wish.

          Same for you, Gadsden. And it’s not a .556

        • Warwolf, wish I had bought those rifles. And sorry for your luck. To have replaced them with ARs is a bit of misfortune.

        • How can you say the AR is a crap rifle when there are all manner of different AR’s of varying levels of quality out there?

        • @gadsen don’t apologize, there was no misfortune on my part. My ARs are significantly more accurate, mags and parts are extremely reliable and can be easily found anywhere for not much money. The AR also has the best ergos, the ability to mount optics, etc the list goes on and on and on. Not only does most everyone on this board disagree with you, 99% of all the ex spec ops guys now turned professional trainers would disagree with you. NOBODY uses those weapons anymore save for some 3rd world shithole country that doesn’t have organized militaries. And those would be better served by using AKs. You are the one who is dating yourself. You probably still shoot a rifle offhand with your firing side elbow at 90 degrees. You are FAR behind the times.

    • Full autos are expensive. The bumpstock covered a key purpose of the 2nd Amendment, and that is it gives suppressive fire capabilites for the Citizens, to use on the just following orders government enforcers. I can dump the magazine with my binary trigger 2 seconds faster than normal, and on my tripod it is an impressively accurate weapon.
      Joining the government to get rights, is not an American value. Government employees having more rights than us Citizens, is exactly the kind of tyranny many of us Citizens own guns to remove with deadly force. Many of us would never surrender our freewill for governemt employment, as that is not a moral choice for men with Honor. A male being dishonest and saying they are female, is the same dishonesty as a government employee saying they protect the Constitution. My skill and my friends’ skills behind weapons is what keeps our Liberty.

    • Yeah the Mitary hardly ever allows you to fire full auto. As other have said your Fudd is showing. Why would I need to join the Military to exercise a fundamental right anyway? With “friends” like you we certainly do not need enemies. Trump will succeed in getting all semi autos banned and as usual there will be a whole collection of morons who continue to believe it is some sort of 4 D chess.

  11. Well, the history of assembly laws, zero tolerance drug laws, RICOH n its spawn “civil asset forfeiture”, surveillance n tracking laws, red light cameras, drones, insurance, cab licensing, Jim Crow, predatory zoning, not to mention the commverce clause and the rest have amply demonstrated…

    You don’t write a vague law then depend on “discretion” and “intent” to keep it from being abused. You write a crisp law, knowing it’ll be pushed and stretched into other uses.

    /It’s Not Like This Is a Surprise

    This is why vague “firing faster” terms in proposed federal gun laws are the camel’s nose under the tent. Yeah, they only mean bump stocks, er semi-autos, er quick responsive triggers, er magazines, er clips, er lever actions, er pump actions, er bolt actions, er metal cartridges… Any device that can allow a gun to be fired faster includes all of those, plus pre-measured paper “charges”, plus in the extreme paper. (What’s that PA definition of “limited effort” allowing non-firing parts to count as functional firearms? A pile of ore is a machine gun because with enough work you can make the latter from the former.)

    Commonly understood, a machine gun fires the next shot *only* by holding a single-action activation device in a constant “on” position. You hold down a switch and it fires itself until it lets go. A machine gun doesn’t require any other interaction with the operator to keep firing. Thus the simple fact that you have to hold a bump stock right, and it fires again through interaction with the hold, means it isn’t a machine gun. If you can flip a swith in the back or the guy’s head to have the gun + operator fire continuously until turned off … that’s a machine gun. So, until we get actual cyborgs built to hold semi-auto’s “just right”, no, even Range Toy Wrangler, plus gizmo, plus semi-auto isn’t a “machine gun.”

    Somebody wrote the laws with sloppy language. Some bunch of advocates worked hard to drive their particular agenda-truck through the loopholes. Some of the people writing the sloppy lawas are sloppy, lazy, or over-booked. Since legislation gets written by advocates, then fed to the law makers, the fact that you have to think hard to find the Trojan Loophole is strictly working as designed.

    • I don’t so much care that the anti-people have different opinions; or even that they think we, and I, are bad, wrong, and evil. I get bugged that they think we’re so dumb we don’t see what they’re up to.

  12. It might be a good idea not to eletc government with contempt for the governed as they will inevitably, eventually act that way.

    If they hate you, and say so before they’re elected, what makes you think they won’t act that way once they’re in.

  13. As insane as it might be, any semiautomatic rifle with a free floating firing pin will go mag dump auto simply by forcing the pin in the forward position. This happened to an sks at a Virginia outdoor sighting range once and the ranger was all over the guy in minutes.

    • A Cook-off is much more entertaining.

      Hot, dirty AR and a lot of qualifiers waiting in line.

      Kind of like playing beer hunter with a rifle.

  14. Maybe someone should have thought of that BEFORE they manufactured and sold bump stocks. And, maybe ATF should have ruled on them when they first appeared on the scene. Fekkin’ gun grabbers will use anything we give them, after all. They may be idiots, but they aren’t entirely stupid.

  15. Although serious due to easily reinterpreted handgun laws, these issue are basically legalistic twaddle. As long as we have laws that seek to “civilize” the 2nd Amendment we will continue to have legal attacks like this which, surprise, surprise, try to make a widely popular firearm that protects millions of Americans— illegal. The obvious solution to this on-going conflict, something our political class studiously seeks to avoid, is the kind of reckoning that can only come from the supreme court.

    The intent of the 2nd Amendment is about as unambiguous as a political statement can be—It was crafted to provide armed American citizens with the ability to resist governmental tyranny. In order for that to happen, there is no question that free Americans must have access to modern weapons like AR pattern rifles. Not surprisingly it is this fundamental tenant of the 2nd that gun-controller progressive are working so hard make illegal.

    This pissin’ contest will continue to go on and on until the supreme count rules that the 2nd Amendment means exactly what it says. Although our political class may be fearful of the consequences of such a ruling, our freedom and liberty absolutely demands that the ability to keep and bear these necessary arms must be confirmed by our highest court.

    • Let’s see…Time to raid a terrorist stronghold or anthony weiner’s child dungeon. One gun rack has AR15s the other rack select fire M4s. Even though both firearms are democRat designated to be the same which one will FBI and ATF agents beeline too and why I ask you judge gordon you ignorant Ratbassturd on this day of Our Lord April 15, 2020?

  16. A well regulated militia being necessary to a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. ??? Not sure what the oath sworn to protect and defend the constitution means but I have the “ Shall not infringe “ part.

  17. According to my understanding, a machine gun is a firearm that discharges or is capable of discharging, that is actually firing, multiple rounds of ammunition with a single actuation of it’s trigger. Is that incorrect?

    • That was the definition, until the New York liberal made an ignorant decree based on emotion, that was allowed to change the law.

        • Depends. Go ask the ATF what their latest “advice” is. “Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms” should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

  18. And if Mark Wahlberg adds a “device” to his junk like in Boogie Nights, it doesn’t REALLY turn him into a John Holmes look alike. About as stupid as this argument. This is all non-sense.

  20. Dems= Nazi socialistic anti freedom controlling sabotaging idiocrats!
    Buy all the guns you can while you can! You may need to use them against the evil of this world to protect family, home, and country!
    Vote all anti gun pushers out!!!
    Carry every day!!!

  21. Now my jeans are an automatic weapon. I mean you can bump fire with a belt loop. I guess they will outlaw jeans with a belt loop now.

  23. I further maintain we should ban the manufacture, sale, tranfer, ownership, or use of any device or materials which may cause, through negligence or intent, physical injury or death. Cars, power tools, hand tools, kitchen implements, lawn tools, water, and many more items have a lethal capability and should therefore be deemed unsafe for the general public. In fact, the components of said materials should be held in the same regard, so no more hydrogen or oxygen for average citizens. Could be made it H2O, then further weaponized by freezing or boiling! Too dangerous! Not in my America!

  26. Military: Small arms
    Cops: Self defense
    Civilian: Assault Rifle

    Fuck them. Stop asking for permission.

  27. Yeah….. they can try all they want, but i’ll never tell where the boat capsized and my guns sank… I’ll never forget where that happened though… most horrible day of my life…. sucks

  28. What part of “single activation of the trigger” is ambiguous? A bump stock still requires multiple actuations of the trigger. Idiots.

  29. Now I’m confused.
    AR-15s are machine guns AND in common use for lawful purposes. Now what?
    Unless, ARs aren’t firearms at all because they don’t have a receiver that fits the letter of law.
    “Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice

    • Wouldn’t it be great if this meant ‘machine guns’ are in common use and therefore are no longer NFA items?

      *Great for everyone except the people that made the big money investment in an NFA transferrable machine gun.

  30. There are definitely times when the Law (and Lawyers and Judges) is an ASS! I cannot abide ignorance and stupidity and I cannot comply with law that is based on stupidity or on ignorant and stupid rulings!

    • Maybe you not complying is the goal. Then you go to trial, where a jury decides whether you broke the law as written(not whether the law makes sense). Then, at a minimum, you get sentenced to time served. Now you’re a felon and can`t own firearms. Very tidy package.
      Unless…more people learn about jury nullification…then the show begins.

  31. Google “Fat guy bump firing Glock”.
    So is the Glock a machine gun, or is the guys belly a prohibited device?

  32. So an AR-15 lower receiver doesn’t actually meet the federal definition of a “firearm”, but now it does meet the definition of a ‘machine gun’?

    Does a ‘machine gun’ need to be a ‘firearm’?

    • A machine gun doesn’t need to be a receiver, but it is by NFA definition a firearm. For example, a drop in auto sear (DIAS) is considered a machine gun, and registered ones have their own serial number. An exception is if the receiver was registered as a machine gun, in which case the DIAS can’t be used in another receiver.

  33. To be fair, the old definition of what readily converted meant was drilling the third hole.

    Now it means the capability to drill a third hole and put in an auto sear.

    Or it means the capability to wrap a shoestring around both the trigger and the charging handle.

    Or it means readily convertible by means of applying an auto-crank to a handgun’s trigger.

    And so on.

    In other words, the definition once meant you had to cut something and install a part. Now its going to mean that as long as you can automate it by some process, its a machine gun.

    I suppose you could technically build a device that would even actuate charging handles on bolt-guns for you, thus making a machine gun out of one. I mean, why not, right?

    I hope this comes to pass. I hope pro-gunners see the ration and logic in actually supporting insane legalese like this. Civil disobedience would become the norm.

  34. The court made a un Constitutional decision and the judge needs impeaching and or……
    May the Tyrannical cork sucker choke on his pablum.

  35. Why do so many people think the 2nd amendment allows them the right to own anything that shoots.
    They aren’t going after traditional sport’s weapons, nor do they want most hand guns. They just want the Brady Bill back .
    I own and shoot guns, bows, fish……. they want to minimize carnage caused by idiots using high capacity magazines, and military grade weapons that can easily be modified to auto and designed for the purpose of killing.
    Tired of hearing the argument they are for self defense……if u need high capacity or ar type weapon to feel safe maybe u would find a safer place to live.
    A short barrel shot gun would be just as , if not more, effective for self defense.

    • The second amendment exists to allow domestic terrorists, as a government would define them, to ensure our rights are not trampled on. It doesn’t matter what weapon you use. And it’s not their place to tell you what you can and cannot own.

      So many FUDDS

    • I hope you one day see the irony of saying “designed to kill” yet saying traditional firearms will be safe. That bolt action or lever action rifle marketed for hunting (a “sporting purpose”) was expressly designed to kill things often times a lot bigger than humans. Let’s be honest here. If a firearm wasn’t capable of killing something, it would not be very effective.

    • “Why do so many people think the 2nd amendment allows them the right to own anything that shoots.
      They aren’t going after traditional sport’s weapons, nor do they want most hand guns. They just want the Brady Bill back .
      I own and shoot guns, bows, fish……. they want to minimize carnage caused by idiots using high capacity magazines, and military grade weapons that can easily be modified to auto and designed for the purpose of killing.
      Tired of hearing the argument they are for self defense……if u need high capacity or ar type weapon to feel safe maybe u would find a safer place to live.
      A short barrel shot gun would be just as , if not more, effective for self defense”

      So much stupidity in the above statement. Where to start fisking?
      1) The anti-gun mafia may not be after fudd weapons now, but give them time and your “sniper rifles and auto shotguns” will be on the table soon. Bring back the Brady Bill? No one but the anti-gun mafia desires that.
      2)”military grade weapons that can easily be modified to auto and designed for the purpose of killing.” Any person with half a brain knows that “military grade weapons” already are capable of fully auto fire. If it does not have a giggle switch, then it is not “military grade”. A “large capacity” magazine does not make a firearm any more dangerous as magazine changes are very quick.
      3) ” Tired of hearing the argument they are for self defense……if u need high capacity or ar type weapon to feel safe maybe u would find a safer place to live” Maybe they are for self defense or maybe for sport (Modern sporting rifles or even self loading pistols can be used for target shooting, competition or just plinking as well as other uses.). If you are paranoid about modern firearms then I suggest that you be the one to move someplace safer. (China or Cuba come to mind.)
      4)A short barrel shotgun may or may not be the best choice for self defense. A lot of variables involved with what, or why someone chooses any particular firearm for their defensive weapon. Not your decision as to what anyone can or can not use to defend themselves with, or any other use thereof!

    • Why do so many people think the 2nd amendment allows them the right to own anything that shoots.
      They aren’t going after traditional sport’s weapons, nor do they want most hand guns. They just want the Brady Bill back.

      They do not “just” want the Brady Bill back, they want to completely ban all guns, period. If you don’t know that, then you haven’t been following the gun control movement for very long. In addition, the Second Amendment and Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not about sporting or hunting anymore than the First Amendment and Right to Freedom of Speech and Assembly are about pool parties and Sports Illustrated magazine.

      I own and shoot guns, bows, fish……. they want to minimize carnage caused by idiots using high capacity magazines, and military grade weapons that can easily be modified to auto and designed for the purpose of killing.

      Define “military-grade.” That is a loaded term gun controllers throw out. Technically, it just means is the weapon built to a certain quality to withstand use on the battlefield. It has little to do with the weapon’s ability to kill. There are bolt-action rifles that are military-grade, and semiautos that are not. Nor are semiautos easily converted to automatic fire. Weapons designed for killing and military use includes every single firearm in existence for the most part. You’d have to ban 99% of all guns. In addition, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is about precisely that—the right to possess weapons for killing, as self-defense, resistance to tyranny, fighting insurrections, or fighting a foreign invader all involve killing.

      And “high-capacity” is a loaded term that is completely arbitrary. This idea that anything over ten rounds is “high-capacity” is an arbitrary standard that gun control proponents made up out of thin air. What they are really seeking to do is to ban what are standard capacity magazines and limit people to what are arbitrarily-determined reduced capacity magazines.

      Tired of hearing the argument they are for self defense……if u need high capacity or ar type weapon to feel safe maybe u would find a safer place to live.
      A short barrel shot gun would be just as , if not more, effective for self defense.

      That’s one hell of an elitist statement. First of all, not everyone has the ease of moving. You think every poor person stuck in a high-crime area WANTS to be there? Secondly, what gun is appropriate for self-defense depends on the person. AR-15s are ideal because they are very ergonomic, very accurate, and have very low recoil, which makes them ideal for pregnant women, elderly people, physically disabled people, and so forth.

      Magazine capacity greater than ten rounds can be needed if dealing with multiples, a drugged up opponent, and/or the fact that if your adrenaline is pumping, you can miss much more easily. How you shoot when relaxed at a range while shooting at a fixed target can be a lot different from how you shoot at a moving target trying to harm you with your adrenaline pumping.

    • You completely missed the point of the 2nd amendment. It doesn’t mention hunting, sports, or even regular self defense. Those are only side-effects.

      “Why do so many people think the 2nd amendment allows them the right to own anything that shoots.” 2A does NOT allow us anything. On the contrary. It strictly forbids any infringement on our right to keep and bear arms (no buts or excepts) for security of FREE state. Yes, that means all and any firearms, especially those useful in militia use.

      If you believe that leftist gun grabbers push public disarmament because they care about lives lost to so called “gun violence”, I have nice ocean front property here in Illinois for you. If they did, they would aim to ban hand guns, since vast majority of “gundeaths” are inflicted with pistols.

      Btw. short barreled shotguns are heavily regulated and taxed by the same NFA that regulates machine guns. Hughes amendment to FOPA closed the registry which NFA prescribed. Together they mean no new machine guns for us, non-government people.

  36. Well perhaps it is now time to invest in a 3D printer. And then start cranking out Auto Sears for AR-15s.
    And sell them in the state of Nevada. I don’t know if Auto Sears wherever serial number as a gun part. If they’re not then I don’t see why you can’t produce these in the state of Nevada. And have everybody have a real machine gun.

  37. Well, I would expect that this loses when the defendants put up an expert that explains that there’s a technical and legal difference between FA and pulling the trigger really fast.

    On the off chance that this isnt true, Templar has a point. If they really are machineguns in hiding/waiting then they’re in common use and protected by the 2A via Heller which means that the NFA is gone in regards to FA and such rifles are still protected by the PLCAA since the death of that portion of the NFA means that machinegun or semiautomatic doesn’t matter as both were legal at the time of manufacturing because the court is de facto admitting that said portion of the NFA was always void.

    • Yeah, it rapidly turns into a “Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it” situation, much to their horror. The not-nice side of me wants to see that happen, just for the lulz… 😉

      • I think we make an error in assuming they’re all “antis” or “gun controllers”.

        Grabbers tend to be more strategic than this. This seems a lot more like tort lawyers out for a payday without considering or caring about the larger ripple effects winning or losing might create. They just want their 30% of a settlement.

        • “I think we make an error in assuming they’re all “antis” or “gun controllers”.”

          We saw examples of that in the California gun stores recently, I suppose, but while they want their option to buy a gun, they will happily vote for the ‘grabbers’.

          So, in terms of being ‘friends’, what good are they, practically-speaking?

        • I didnt say that they’re our friends. I just said I think that this is driven by tort lawyers whose agenda is money rather than anything else.

          I do think that the nuance of that has some implications in how we react but it doesn’t make them our friends, nor in this case does it necessarily make them our enemies.

          If a wolf attacks your enemy such an act doesn’t make the wolf your friend. It’s still just a wolf. That doesn’t mean you’d either assume it to be on your side nor that you’d stop the attack. You’d recognize that the wolf is it’s own agent, with an agenda related to itself, and that would inform your reaction to the wolf and it’s actions.

  38. Hmm. Imagine that. My shoelaces are BSTDs. Who’d a thunk it???

    Simple analysis, dumbshits (addressed to the ATF and the courts) – how many times does the trigger have to be pulled to fire a round??? Too complicated for you??? That’s OK, we’ll let you take your socks off if it helps doing the math to figure it out.

    Having said that, bump stocks are a novelty and/or a joke. And no one, even the military, uses “full auto” other than in an “I’m about to be overrun” scenario – God himself can’t shoot accurately on full auto.

    Since there are so MANY unanswered questions about the Las Vegas shootings, I will not comment – but if you think you’ve got a solid bead on that, you’re an idiot – but, if you look at the record of “mass shootings”, and your conclusion is “banning bump stocks will help”? Yeah, you’re a moron.

  39. Fuck goddamn Nevada. As far as the people at the concert go, they should have been carrying.

  40. “. . .by a single function of the trigger.” A fully automatic AR empties a 30 round magazine with one pull (function) of the trigger. A semi-auto AR with a bump stock empties a 30 round magazine with 30 pulls (functions) of the trigger. Now, this idiot is an Obama judge and yes, he is interested in outcome only, he is not interested in objectively applying the law. But this should not stand on appeal. The problem is that the manufacturer defendants can only get to the appeal stage by trying the case and risking a huge judgment that could bankrupt the company.

  42. Two thirds of the shots fired in the attack did not hit anybody. Think about that. All this hoopla over how many people a bump stock wielding madman could slaughter, he fired into a massive and tightly packed crowd, and he missed two thirds of the time.

    I’ll tell you what, those people in that crowd were damned fortunate the madman used a bump stock. Had he known what he was doing around firearms, he never would have used that sloppy, accuracy destroying plinker’s toy. He’d of used serious weaponry in a serious and well practiced fashion.

    And not missed two thirds of his shots into that dense crowd of innocents.

    We are often fortunate in life that many a criminal, however despicable their deeds, tends towards stupid mistakes in the commission of said evil.

  44. They simply can’t get around “in common use” in Heller.

    Even if an AR were declared a machine gun, it would still be “in common use” for over 50 years without being considered one. Bump stocks, not so much.

  45. If all ar15s are now machine guns in nevada. Could a crafty lawyer then not argue “common use” precedent set by the supreme court in heller? And possibly get our machine guns back. If ar15s are machine guns they are certainly in common use, which should make all ar15 select fire guns legal. I think that if you get the right judge and a good enough lawyer this could actually be a huge win.

  46. I recall clearly that we here had this same discussion when the first mention of the possibility of a bump stock ban came up, and how there were basically two general views. One was that a bump stock was a mere toy, an aberration, something that could readily be dispensed with while general firearm ownership remained unscathed. The other was that Government had no right to ban such things as they were NOT ‘machine guns,’ which of course they are not, and that it was anathema to even THINK that they could legally be banned.

    There was also a third viewpoint, and that was that the problem was NOT with bump stocks per se, but what they DID to an otherwise normally-functioning semi-automatic rifle, that being to make it possible to fire one with great speed and as a reasonable surrogate for an actual ‘machine gun’, which IS why bump stocks were created–otherwise, they would have no use whatsoever. That being the case, some of us noted that once Government discovered that all that it took to create a ‘ home-built machine gun’ in their minds was to attach a crude piece of plastic and a spring to an AR, it would become obvious to them that the problem lies with the gun and operating system, and not the bump stock–as without the gun, a bump stock is once again merely a crude piece of plastic with a spring. The GUN is the thing.

    Remember, historically, that machine guns came BEFORE semi-automatic weapons; It is FAR easier to build a machine gun than it is to build a reliable semi-auto, because the actual trick to doing so is to figure out a way to make a machine gun STOP being a machine gun, and to figure out how to make a semi-automatic NOT be a machine gun, which is what it really wants to be. Virtually the only difference between a ‘machine gun’ and a ‘semi-automatic’ is a component intended to interrupt the firing cycle, to re-capture the hammer or striker temporarily so as to reattach it to the sear/trigger mechanism and thus stop it from flying forward continuously–in other words, a ‘disconnector.’ Every semi-auto has one, or something similar to to the job (Glocks have ‘connectors,’ which work backwards but do the same thing); Otherwise, you’ve got a machine gun. It just can’t help itself.

    Pretty much every semi-auto CAN be ‘readily converted’ to a machine gun of sorts; It can be done as easily as by removing a part, or breaking a part, or weakening a part, and not necessarily or always by adding a part.

    For example, a 1911 can become a ‘machine pistol’ via a broken disconnector or jammed firing pin. A Browning A5 shotgun can become a ‘machine shotgun’ with a set of worn sear notches, a broken firing pin, a broken sear safety pin that no longer mechanically retracts the firing pin. An AR can become an uncontrollable, open-bolt ‘M-16’ with no trigger by jamming the firing pin forward and using the bolt release to let the bolt slam forward on a live chambered round, or by a severely weakened (or missing) disconnector spring. If it is semi-automatic, there’s a crude way to make it function as a machine gun. The trick is in making it NOT be a machine gun. . .

    Now, along comes the bump stock, a simple gadget that more-or-less bypasses, in net result, all of the internal ‘I’m not a machine gun!” bits of the rifle to which it is attached and, to the untrained-but-litigious eye of the tort attorney and, apparently, the courts, instantly screams “Hey! I’m a MACHINE GUN!” to all that are listening.

    And so it has come to pass: Just as we knew it, a judge has recognized that it is the method of operation that makes the gun ‘readily convertible,’ and not the plastic-and-spring gadget attached to it. No AR platform? No machine gun, no matter HOW many bump stocks there are at hand. The GUN is the thing.

    The floodgates are going to open; Let’s just hope that they don’t open all the way.

  47. I love how all the dumb FUDDS are literally glossing over the fact that this judge’s decision was based on Trump’s illegal bump stock executive order that literally changed the NFA definition of a machine gun and allows for this type of interpretation.

  48. This makes me nervous for when Frontsight opens back up and I want to take a rifle class. Also, it makes me ponder the day when they come to get our “machine guns”.

    They will have one hell of a fight on their hands!

  49. “Always wanted a giggle switch for your GLOCK? Go for it; the penalty is the same, as Gordon sees it.”

    Oh dear gawd, calm the f$*k down. There is not a single person reading this that actually thinks that this ruling will become a trend, let alone that it will be allowed to stand. So lefty lawyer talks lefty judge into lefty bullsh*t? Must be a day that ends in day.

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