Seattle Gun Free Zone sign courtesy washingtonceasfire.orgOver 100 Seattle businesses have now chosen to advertise that their patrons are unarmed under a voluntary program administered by Washington Ceasefire in which businesses can sign up and download signs like the one above to place in their windows. According to seattlepi.com, the restaurant Oddfellows on Capitol Hill was the first to put up the signs. You can find them and the other 100 or so businesses to avoid over at gunfreeseattle.org. A reminder: Though no-gun signs do not carry the weight of law in Washington, you can be asked to leave. You’re encouraged to find other places to do business whenever possible.

As a followup to the recent post on your favorite thing about long-range shooting, NSSF tells you to “look for the trace” to help spot your shots. Seeing the trace is pretty neat, although for .22LR it’s easier to just look for the bullet, since that little lump of lead is flying slower than a winged mallard.

 
If it wasn’t completely obvious by now that Terry McAuliffe is a card-carrying member of the Civilian Disarmament Movement, take it from him in his own words, from the final gubernatorial debate last night. Stating unequivocally that more gun control is necessary, he said “I don’t care what grade I got from the NRA. I never want to see another Newtown or Aurora or Virginia Tech again.” Well, neither do the rest of us, bucko, but none of your sugar daddy’s proposed liberty-nullifying laws would have prevented any of those.

How’d you like to try to fit “Helicopter Rope Suspension Techniques Master” as your job title on a business card?

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78 COMMENTS

  1. Fast ropin is fun till frickin Mongo lands on top of you cause you found a gopher hole the hardway.

    As for mr. McAuffle you sir are the worst kind of politician there is.

  2. If you’re ever asked to leave a restaurant while you’re eating, NEVER pay. They’re kicking you out, so make them regret it.

    • Good news about Gunfreeseattle – I’ve lived in Tacoma almost 14 years now and have NEVER visited any of the businesses on that list. Pretty sure I can go another 14 no sweat.

    • +1 on that. If they are kicking you out they have informed you that you are trespassing. Therefore you MUST, BY LAW, leave immediately. That means no stops, no bill paying, no cashiers or waiting for change, you must go. (or at least that’s how I’ve viewed it in the past.)

    • I should stop by some of those places, eat, then ‘accidentally’ start carrying openly. Who’s with me?

  4. Funny thing is, as my understanding of my state laws, these signs do not apply. If I choose to conceal carry inside their business, they can do nothing legally about it. While the city of seattle has tried and tried, the gun grabbers and liberals there can not get pased the states preemption law. Basically no city or county can have stricter gun laws then the state constitution. So basically those signs do not apply.

    • Not quite.

      They can ask you to leave, and you can refuse or go. If you refuse, then they can threaten to call the cops, and you can leave or go. If you still stay, they’ll call the cops, and you’ll get prosecuted for disturbing the peace and possibly other charges. I don’t know how Washington revokes permits, but it would get revoked if a permit holder did that in my state.

      • This is essentially correct. In Washington the signs themselves have no force of law. A private business can post its premises as a gun free zone but that sign in and of itself does not prevent you from entering, only states the position of the business. I doubt that the “…may be subject to arrest and prosecution…” has any more validity legally other than advising you of what could happen if you refuse to leave when asked.

        I visited their site to check the list of participants and saw their misleading commentary (31,000 gun deaths in one year. They didn’t mention how many of those 20,000 plus people might commit suicide with a gun in your establishment.) And also their recommendation that you (since you have no balls) should not confront the person with the gun, but immediately call the police. They also point out that the owner or manager MUST be present when the police arrive since at that time (protected behind the GUNS(!) of the LEOs) they MUST ask you specifically to leave their premises and state why. If you agree to leave there should be no further consequences, but given Seattle and the Seattle PD I would not necessarily count on that. If you refuse to leave then the police can arrest you for trespass, IF the owner and/or manager is willing to press charges. If you argue or put up a fight then all bets are off because the po-po WILL physically remove you, maybe Taser you, possibly shoot you, but at the very least press charges for disturbing the peace and confiscate your gun.

        Best bet, download the list from their website and DO NOT GO THERE. Or go there and hand them a “No guns=No money” card and move on to their competition.

        • “… go there and hand them a “No guns=No money” card and move on to their competition.”
          That’s an excellent suggestion. When they collect a set of these, business owners will get the idea that their public foolishness is losing them substantial money. They will see the light…

        • I agree, but the sad reality is that they might get 1-2 No guns = No Money signs / month from TTAG / NRA members. It likely the liberals will view that as “sacrificing for the greater good.”

          Still, I like to deny business to anti gunners whenever possible.

        • Those RCWs are about trespassing. They might as well put the same fine print on a sign requiring footwear or prohibiting dogs.
          I suspect they put it on there to make the stupid people (i.e. those who feel safer with the signs up) feel like the signs will do something.

    • If you’re carrying concealed, no one will know. It’s just a bullying tactic by the bigots. Boycott if you wish, but realize that if you do, you’re giving them exactly what they want.

      • What they want… collectively.

        What they want individually is my dolla dolla bills, which they can’t have no more.

      • The first time a criminal decides they are safer robbing a store with one of these signs, they will all disappear.

        • Unlikely. Once a crime is committed, the local talking heads and Gestap… er, Police Chief will express their relief that “further violence” was avoided because only the bad guy had a gun. Yes, they really do say and believe that kind of crap.

      • You are correct in the conceal carry part. However this state, and even the city of Seattle we are allowed to open carry. While I would recommend and personally only openly carry a pistol, again legally other then asking me to leave they have no ground to stand on.

  5. Yup. Forgot to mention bullet swirl in that previous post. That really is cool to watch.
    Going out again Sunday for some long range work.

  6. I know what I do when I see a gun free sign in a business window.. and I’m sure the other places I spend at enjoy that well enough. BTW at Taco Hell for a treat today and the free WiFi blocked TTAG…

    • Do you happen to remember the reason given, if there was one? If it’s just something like “guns” then there’s not much we can do, but sometimes we get misclassified into something like “obscene” or “adult content,” and when that happens it’s often possible to petition the filtering agency (not Taco Bell, but whoever they buy their system from) to get a review of the categorization. That review might just end up getting us reclassified from “obscene” to “guns” and still blocked, but it’s also possible that the misclassification could get lifted entirely. I know it worked at a buddy’s office like that, and he can now see TTAG.

  7. Seems Washington shares one “common sense” gun law with Iowa – ‘ no-gun signs do not carry the weight of law’.

  8. One more thing, I’m sure glad those highly educated criminal types will be helping enforce those gun free zones…

  9. I remember when I was little a gun free sign was the result of Bubba needin to get rid of an old rifle in order to buy a new one and fudgin up the sign. What the hell happened to America???

  10. These idiots just don’t get it, why attempt to persecute a portion of the population that is more law abiding than the general population. Oh that’s right, they are idiots!

  12. > “look for the trace”
    You better have a good spotting scope, many of the cheapo ones will not help you. The most impressive scope I have ever used was a OPTOLYTH with High Definition Fluorite Glass. It would be impossible not to see the trace with this glass. It was designed specifically for shooting and it is used by many forest ranger services to spot tags/rings on birds. Also, depending on where the sun is, you may not get any help either however if it is behind you, you can see the glint off the bullet.

    The video was not helpful, because the spotter must be just above and almost on line with the shooter. Depending on your shooting range, not always possible.

  13. A lot of those locations are bars. Washington State carry permits do not allow carry in bars or the over-21-only sections of restaurants.

    This isn’t nearly as big a deal as they’re making it out to be.

    • Thanks for that. I checked handgunlaw.us to see if the signs carried force of law, and they have that you can carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol (Chilis, Red Lobster, etc), but they had no information about bars specifically. Good to know.

      • Matt, Washington law reads, paraphrasing; you cannot carry in an establishment that SERVES alcohol AND prohibits persons under 21 years of age. It also states that in restaurants where persons under 21 years of age are allowed you MAY carry, but you may not enter the bar portion of the restaurant where persons under 21 are prohibited.

        • Thanks. I’m pretty sure I disagree with that rule, but at least in Washington’s case it’s pretty clear and unequivocal what they mean. Florida’s is open to interpretation:

          Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

          OK, so clearly bars are off limits, and equally clearly restaurants that serve alcohol are OK (and separately, consumption of alcohol is OK, but that’s outside the scope of this conversation), but the problem is, how do you know where to draw the line? For example, at Chili’s, at the bar is right out, but what about in what they call the “lounge,” which is all the seats inside the bar wall, but not at the bar? Outback has a similar situation: seats at the bar, and booths around the perimeter, but inside the wall?

          A conservative reading would tell you to avoid “anything inside the wall,” but who really knows? There’s no case law to point at to make a solid call one way or the other. A wise man would use discretion and just stay outside the wall, but my friend works at Chili’s and she’s almost always in the lounge, so does that mean I can’t visit her at work? (For the record, I do, quite frequently. If it becomes necessary for my concealed weapon to become unconcealed, I figure where I’m sitting will the be the least of my worries.)

        • The exact wording is:

          That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age

          See (1)(d) here: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

          So that includes bars (but not restaurants that serve alcohol) and liquor stores. Presumably it will include the state-licensed pot stores, when those open later.

    • Correct about the law and bars, not to mention any other large gathering location as a stadium, or government offices. However I have to be in a bar that was stupid enough to put one of those signs up.

  14. I’m still waiting for a fool-proof logical explanation of how a gun-free zone sign is supposed to deter a criminal or mentally ill person from committing a crime in any establishment that posts these signs up.

    It’s the equivalent of splashing water at a shark to “scare it away”. Frankly, it’s idiotic and counter-intuitive at best.

    And I’d also like to know if businesses putting up these signs are backing up the purpose these signs represent by making themselves responsible for the safety of their patrons in the event a crime is committed on the property, they would be liable for emotional distress, bodily harm, or even death of it’s patrons. If you expect your patrons to disarm, are you then providing armed guards to make up for it? No? Then what is the point?

    Anything less, and your business is literally putting your patrons at more risk my advertising your ignorance of the fact criminals or the mentally ill, by definition, don’t follow the law or signage prohibiting firearms if they already have it in their minds to perpetrate a crime on or in your establishment…..

    I really don’t understand the point of these signs other than the fact they display the stupidity of people that really think words prevent crime.

    • Can someone point to any place in history where “gun free zone” signs did anything positive for any society?

      If these signs were actually effective, then why do the police and militiary carry firearms? Obviously, we can stop all wars and atrocities now that we have these infallible signs we can post in every warzone and battlefield and stop the bloodshed cold.

      Oh wait….

    • I wondered at one point about the potential risk of liability to the business the posted itself as gun free should patrons be injured by a criminal with a gun. It would seem that the insurance companies would be opposed to this. Then it occurred to me that the signs did have one definite benefit for the business: Since they are posted at the entrance, IF you enter it is voluntary and informed and you have essentially waived your right to sue. Same as if they put those “Floor is Slippery” signs all over the place. You walk there anyway, slip and break a hip, guess what? No damages for you. You were warned.

      That being the case a business that does NOT post a GFZ sign could be liable for damages if their patrons are injured by a gunman, but they have a “Get out of tort court free” card if they are posted as gun free and someone comes in anyway to shoot the place up.

      Any lawyers or insurance guys out there want to chime in on this view?

      • That sounds about right from a legal and technical standpoint, but it’s definitely wrong on every other level, if you get me.

    • I doubt any of these places have ever had an incident of gun crime. They all seem to be in Capitol Hill, Belltown, Queen Anne, and Magnolia.
      The criminal element rarely gets that far north. Now if they put those signs in an area like Rainier Beach, then they would be applicable as well as pointless.

  16. I went to gunfreeseattle.org, and was surprised by the number of bars on the list. It’s already illegal to carry in bars in Washington, so what’s the point of putting up a gun free zone sign?

    Edit: rosignol beat me to the punch…

    • It’s one thing for a bar to put up a sign warning CCWers that they would be breaking the law by entering with a gun. That’s customer service. But, to put up a sign from an anti-gunowner group is like giving the finger to CCWers.

    • To make it look like they are actually capable of doing something outside of bars. Trying to install fear into other business’ and the citizens of this state.

  17. I live in SeaTac and after looking over the list of businesses, there is nothing appealing enough that I would waste gas or shoe leather on to trade with, especially if I have to go unarmed in those heavily crime-ridden areas. The only ones that frequent those places are dog walkers and faggots (usually the same)……

    • WHO would benefit most from being on our side, people alone with a poodle at night and someone who has a sexual orientation that gets them persecuted and often the victim of violence. So instead of perpetuating the problem why not get over the fact your not into the same kink as the other guy/gal and extend some helpful knowledge to other citizens of our country that share and would benefit from the second amendment. This type of thinking is exactly why B.O. got his second term, a lot of GOP, and bubba’s out there not able to get over personal details of other peoples lives and alienating some voters.

    • What color is your “God Hates Fags” sign, Mick? Wake the f*ck up, man. Your words seem to imply that it is acceptable to you that certain types of people fall as defenseless victims to violence because you disapprove of their lifestyle. Is that truly the case? If so, I think you missed something along the way in understanding what it means to live in a free society…

      Heed the words of The Griz and check your hate at the door. We either choose to actively include all types of people in our corner or we go down in flames as nothing more than the white, uneducated, hate-filled, rebel flag waiving, knuckle-dragging rednecks that the antis portray us as being. Or, in your case, that you seem to be.

        • You don’t have to like or accept other people’s life choices, only remember two things. 1) that the 2A applies to all Americans. 2) That anything you say can and will be used against us by the anti crowd

        • Mick, I think people are trying to politely tell you to get a clue.
          But if you can’t, then go someplace else.

    • Thank you for your comments folks, I appreciate your exercise of your 1st Amendment rights, freedom of speech, as you should accept mine. There is nothing on this blog that says we have suspended the Constitution and after rechecking it I find that “Politically Correct Speech” has not been added to it. How people think is their business seeing that decisions made are an output of life’s experiences indigenous to that person. No two people think alike, but we do reach common ground on issues that affect us and others of like mind. The anti-gunners are people of all different walks of life that also have a thought structure that comes from a series of life experiences. Whether or not they decide to join us or reject us is dependent on them and feeding and kissing them does not build loyalty to us. Their thought structure has to change them internally. They will have to get past their “Boo-Hoo” moments, sometime in life, to be able to function normally in a Constitutional society, which we are supposed to be. I was raised in an earlier time where we didn’t have to worry about what people said or thought but what you could back up. I don’t have to worry about what people think. I did not vote for the Clinton’s, I knew better, they are POS’s and their propaganda of having politically correct speech Violates our Rights! So, while I can respect what you say, since you have the right to say it under the 1st Amendment, you are not going to make me feel bad for what my opinion is and/or what I said. Get over it move on if you can’t accept it. Life’s a Bitch and everything is a test, handle it!!!

      • I feel so put in my place…or not. Your passionate take on the free speech clause is one shared by me, and I’d agree wholeheartedly that you are free to have and share your opinions – regardless of my take on them.

        Yup, you have the constitutional right to disapprove of being gay and/or use the word faggot. Nobody questions that. It isn’t my point. You don’t seem to get that it’s not helpful to use that kind of language in a forum that is trolled, then linked out via the Twittersphere as an example that we, as POTG, are what every political cartoon portrays us as: Hateful. Frightened. Potentially violent, even (especially that part…).

        Choosing to NOT use certain types of language does not equate to having to be “politically correct” – unless you’d consider racial slurs, for example, a part of polite and civil language? Speech such as yours, while again protected, is considered hateful by a huge chunk of our society – even by those who may share your disapproval of homosexuality. You could just as well have said “those places are frequented by baggy pants wearers and …” as to have shared your opinions in such a way.

        Your original point could have been well made without name calling, though you fail to see that. So, by all means continue forth with the satisfaction that you can declare your feelings about homosexuality in a forum where those opinions are completely and totally irrelevant to the pro 2A message of the site, and waive the constitution around as your justification in doing so. You’re a genius, sir. Your logic trumps mine.

        Carry on and continue make the pro 2A community proud!

        • Trying to lay a guilt trip on me by supposedly taking the higher road on your part is typical of the self-imposed conscience of humanity that you seem to feel is your role in life. I really do believe that you’re going to burn out early from all the crusades you appear to have involved yourself in. Your self righteousness is such a shining beacon for the world to look upon that everyone will need sunglasses in your presence. I applaud you, since you definitely are a force to be reckoned with, I will go now to open a vein in your honor, not…….

  18. I’ve been carrying concealed in many of those places for years, and will continue to do so. I’m tempted to start quietly documenting my carry in these places and sticking it up on tumblr or something, both for the F U factor, and for the “see, nothing happened” factor.

  19. From the Seattle Times article:

    Supporters acknowledge that businesses posting a gun-free zone sticker won’t stop a determined killer, but they hope that removing guns from local bars and stores could help ensure that “an argument doesn’t turn into a funeral,” said Ralph Fascitelli, board president of Washington CeaseFire.

    I’ve lived in Seattle almost my whole life and I can’t recall ever seeing an argument in public. I certainly can’t recall seeing any arguments that actually escalated to physical contact. I know they happen, but culturally we’re a bunch of Scandinavian Asians, so big public displays of emotion aren’t really a thing here.

    This is just about harassing gun owners, nothing else.

    • Well as stated before it is illegal to carry into bars to begin with. As for the Seattle times, they wouldn’t know how to tell the whole truth and both sides of a story if their business depended on it.

    • I was going to point that out. Many civilian disarmament advocates think armed citizens are seething cauldrons of rage that will explode at the slightest provocation. Others believe that armed citizens have Napoleon complexes or are compensating for small penises (why else would someone carry a gun around?) which means they are sure to whip out a handgun for no other reason than to “show the other person who’s boss” if someone is rude.

      Thus they believe that everyone is much safer if armed citizens leave their guns behind. It demonstrates that they have the emotional and intellectual maturity of toddlers.

  20. I would carry concealed if I felt inclined to patronize these businesses.

    If done properly, they would never know anyway. The joke is still on them, and it always will be. 😉

    • I would rather talk to the owners and give them a reality check.

      I would ask them the following questions:

      1) Are you liable for damage and loss of life if your business and patrons are attacked?
      2) What are your security measures and how effective are they at stopping a criminal?
      3) Do you have an armed guard on hand that is competent with their method of crime deterrent?

      If you answer “NO” to any of these, then what gives you the right to attempt to deny the natural right of self-defense of responsible law abiding citizens that are responsible for their own safety, competent and trained for self-defense, and that may save your ass in the event of a crime?

      As point of fact, because you are willing to attempt to deny the natural right of self-defense to your patrons by posting such a sign, if I see you or your store in distress or you are the victim of a crime, I’m tempted to let you all be the victims of your own ignorance and not assist. You’ll find out the hard way why self-defense is a natural right and something that never should be denied another person.

      In effect, by posting that sign, in my mind, it effectively strips you of the right of self-defense and aid of those of us you’re trying to deny that right to.

      Enjoy the bed you’ve made for yourself.

  22. So I’ve thought about these signs some more and realized a few things…. that give me a headache.

    Anti-gunners take the stance that the average Joe or Jane, no matter how old, is one gun away from being the next mass shooter on the news. In their minds, a gun has the ability to corrupt people — it can turn anyone from a law abiding citizen into a mass murderer just by being accessible. Essentially, anti-gunners believe that people will succumb to their most base “evil” urges when / if they chose to own a firearm. It’s 100% projection (they don’t trust themselves with guns so they don’t trust others with guns). They believe that people are inherently evil and will act out on their primal instincts when given the chance, when that’s clearly not the case with millions of peaceful gun owners out there….

    Anti-gun folks choose to believe that they live in a world where they know there are hundreds of thousands of criminals with guns (and other tools) already roam the streets and alleys, waiting to prey on the good people of society. These criminals are people that have already gone down the evil rabbit hole. Further, anti-gun folks believe any “good guy” with a gun is just one bad day away from joining the ranks of the criminals, mentally unstable, and the mass shooters. And there are millions of good guys with guns.

    So… in light of that logic train, there are millions of potential school and mass shooters just one decision away from committing mass murder in the US. Following that logic, we’re one step away from Armageddon right now. Right?

    And their solution to counter Armageddon, “Wild West syndrome” and blood in the streets is… a gun free sign?

    REALLY? Are you f*cking serious?

    That’s the most asinine solution in the history of solutions. That’s something a child, with no knowledge of how people and the world works would come up with.

    That logic alone should disqualify them from ever speaking about crime, crime prevention, violence, domestic violence, etc. Because they are idiots of the first order and understand nothing. Anyone that signs off on gun free zone signs is willfully admitting they know NOTHING about violence, crime, or prevention of either.

    Now I have a headache just knowing how stupid people are in our current govt. and it makes me embarrassed and ashamed to live here.

    • And they will definitely think twice about bringing a gun, because that sign clearly says no guns are allowed!

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