“The Coon Rapids Police Department has received a donation of M16A1 [top gun above] rifles [from the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD),” abcnewspapers.com reports. “The department applied for the weapons after becoming aware that the DOD will donate surplus military rifles to law enforcement agencies in the country, according to Police Chief Brad Wise. On making a written request, the DOD, through its defense reutilization program, shipped 60 M16A1 rifles to the police department, Wise said.” Wikipedia IDs Coons Rapids as the Minnesota’s twelfth largest city with a population of 61,476 (2010 census, 22,578 households). The Coon Rapid po-po employs 64 officers—up from four officers in 2003, when the population was 12,500. The cops are ditching 24 H&K MP5’s for the M16’s, and that’s ’cause . . .

[The M16’s] rifles shoot a .223 round, which is a considerable upgrade in ballistic power from the department’s existing .40 caliber rifles,” he said.

The department will place about 30 of the rifles into service in marked squads and detective squads, Wise said.

The extra rifles were requested for spare parts, he said.

And then . . .

According to Wise, after training officers as armorers, the department plans to upgrade these rifles with new collapsible stocks and new, shorter barrels, which will effectively convert the rifles to an A4 configuration . . .

The cost of upgrading the rifles, estimated to be $800 per weapon.

I make that $48k. No biggie. The city’s 2011 – 2012 budget: $52,517,872. In 2007, public safety accounted for 46 percent of the total. Anyway, the lion’s share comes from you (via Uncle Sam). In case you’re not up-to-date on the LEO 1033 military transfer program . . .

The National Defense Authorization Act authorizes the Secretary of Defense to transfer excess Department of Defense (DOD) personal property to federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies with special emphasis given to counter-drug and counter-terrorism initiatives . . .

If your LEA qualifies and chooses to participate, your organization will become one of over 17,646 (local, state, and federal), which have taken advantage of this unique program.

Available items include weapons, vehicles, protective clothing, night vision equipment, aircraft, and much more.  A shipping and handling fee is charged by DOD for weapons. M14’s, M16’s, and .45 caliber handguns are currently available through the 1033 program.

In 2011, the Pentagon transferred some $500m worth of military weaponry to local police. Good idea? We report, you deride.

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

122 COMMENTS

  1. I don’t think police should be entrusted with full auto weapons. There is absolutely no LEO scenario that calls for the use of full auto, and the chance of killing innocent bystanders is just too great.

    • This.

      I can see moving away from a pistol caliber sub gun or carbine to a 5.56, if your officers will need to engage at 100 to 200 yards, but… full auto? And being in CA and not subject to normal AR prices, can’t you get an A4 length upper and milspec buffer tube with stock for a lot less then $800?

      • The average AR to buy in CA is about $1200. You can buy a striped lower(registered) and build your own lower as long as you attach a ‘Bullet Button.’ The button require a tool to release the magazine, in essence making it a Fixed magazine.

        Uppers are not regulated in CA. So if a manufacturer will ship to CA, you can pretty much order any configuration from 16″ and longer. Nothing less than 16″ is allowed for civilians.

        • Thanks. Moto kinda made my point for me. I wasn’t sure the costs now, but I was positive uppers don’t cost nearly that much.

          Maybe they’re going piston driven gas systems?

        • DS Arms 300 blackout upper, New Frontier 100% polymer lower, trigger/hammer change out to steel, Parrallax Tactical complete bolt assembly $659 including tax out the door in California.

  2. Meh. A1’s? How old are those? I’ve never really been all that concerned with this particular program. I’d rather they did something remotely useful with the guns than simply destroy them. I suppose they can give them to our local cops or they can sell them to “freedom fighters” in the mid-east.

    I don’t see this as a problem. Cops having guns and gear like this isn’t the problem, how they use them and their oversight is. I’m a lot less concerned about the Coon Rapids Police getting some ancient rifles as I am about saayyy…. the Evansville SWAT team flash banging the wrong house with an unlocked front door.

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/daniel-zimmerman/annals-police-militarization-evansville-swat-raids-wrong-house-over-internet-threat/

    • Give them to citizens in the US. Much better than giving them to the thugs with jewelry.

    • I like the idea of them being given to citizens of the US. 😉 on a serious note, I would be apprehensive of taking a M16A1. I dont know anything about it, i.e., how many rounds, how well it was maintained, or if the user frequently disassembled it past his level of maintenance.

    • I’d rather they did something remotely useful with the guns than simply destroy them.

      If they gave them to the CMP, we’d all be better off.

  3. $800 per rifle for those conversion parts/work??? Another example of raping the taxpayer with inflated prices. Heck, they can buy new M4’s for that price, no?

      • Sure.

        The only differences between full and semi auto are in the bolt, sear, disconnector and trigger. Small parts. Chump change in cost(s). LEO’s don’t need to go through the same hoops you or I would to own a NFA weapon… because cops are “special.”

        • Bolt is the same, it’s the bolt carrier group that is often cut down for semi-auto only rifles.

          Also, don’t forget the lower in that list of parts, because NO off-the-shelf AR15 lower will accept a GI autosear.

      • Why did they need MP5’s? Dude, with all of the potential guy’s they come across with big firepower, they have to have something other than their issued side arm. My buddy is a Redwood City PD an has an MP5 in his cruiser. From a ballistics perspective, I’d feel a lot more comfortable with an AR myself.

        • Only 2 years on the job…not yet. Several of his close buddies on the job apparently have though. There are drug and gang issues in the city that require the potential use of the extra firepower. Whether or not he ever had to draw his gun is irrelevant – law enforcement needs to be armed with proper tools for the worst case scenario/job.

        • No reason for a cop to have anything other than a six shot revolver. Citizens are supposed to be able to outgun the government.

        • You say that Chris…what if you were in the cops shoes, doing that job day in and day out? Would you want to go up against a crack dealer with an AK, with your paltry 6 shot revolver? I think not. Cops really are people/guy’s just like you and I, BTW.

        • Would you want to go up against a crack dealer with an AK, with your paltry 6 shot revolver?

          Cause ya know there is a crack dealer with a AK on every street corner. A cops are too cowardly to go up aganst with a AK by themselves, they’ll send in SWAT.

        • @ MotoJB

          Not trying to troll, I have immediate relatives (1st cousin or closer) who are cops going back 90 years. My point is that violent crime has never been lower. Claims that the police are “outgunned” are preposterous. The number one killer of police, other than car accidents negligence, is rushing into a domestic dispute and getting killed by the husband with whatever crappy gun he has on hand.

        • MotoJB, So they need to be armed for the worst case scenario huh? So maybe you want to give em all Davy Crockett recoiless rifles?

  4. Distributing federal gear to the local level merely increases its availability to the rest of us once lines are crossed.

  5. Guess they must have a soaring crime rate there and are under constant superior firepower.

  6. Odd, growing up in the 50’s and early 60’s I don’t remember the cops using M3 grease guns, or M1 carbines left over from WWII and Korea. I believe some carbines were full auto, at least the ones the military had.

    • Growing up in the 50’s and 60’s…the cops didn’t deal with the crime, threats and firepower prevalent in today’s society. If you remember, they primarily carried 6 shot .38’s or 357’s then. Times have certainly changed.

      • Yes, they certainly have.

        Back in the 50’s and 60’s, LEO’s could shoot. I saw LEO’s from that era shoot very, very well indeed.

        Today, LEO’s don’t believe in marksmanship. But they sure do believe in volley fire.

        • In terms of numbers, sure, but thanks to the War on Drugs (as ill advised as it is) there’s a lot more firepower in the hands of certain segments of violent criminality.

          I don’t have a problem with the cops having anything I can have – so semi-auto rifles or carbines are just fine. When I can have full-auto, so can they. But seriously, there’s almost no conceivable policing scenario that requires full auto. The only military ones are room-clearing and trench/bunker-clearing.

    • Yet back in the ’20s federal and state agents were procuring Thompsons and BARs. When the criminals tool up, so do the police.

      • Funny how the criminals tooled up during Prohibition. Ah, history repeats itself.

    • Correct that some carbines were fully automatic.

      M2 Carbine (select-fire M1)
      M3 Carbine (M2 with night-vision optic)

  7. I like what my county has: patrol officers use semi-autos, SWAT and boat guys use automatic weapons.

    • I’d read somewhere that the town got it’s name due to a heavy raccoon population of the woods surrounding Coon Creek, it’s origins are not racially derived.

    • Maybe the guns are to combat the zombies after the Umbrella Corp loses control of the T-Virus?

      Oh. That was Raccoon City.

  9. From your post:

    “…with a population of 61,476 (2010 census, 22,578 households). The Coon Rapid po-po employs 64 officers—up from four officers in 2003, when the population was 12,500.”

    Should be “…up from four officers in 1960…”

    From their site:

    “…4 officers and a population of 12,500 in 1960, to 64 officers and over 61,500 people in 2003.”

    Sorry, wasn’t trying to be pedantic, just trying to figure out how (as written) their population had increased by 49k people in 9 years.

    • Thanks for posting this, as I was wondering the same thing. Seemed like a HUGE expansion of the PD in 10 years, makes more sense spreading it out over 50 years.

  10. If you see some of the crap PDs have to deal with, I dont mind them having military grade weapons and armor.

    • Kinda depends. I’m okay with an M16 in the trunk just in case they run into a badguy smart enough to wear a vest (…it’s happened once or twice). But I don’t want that stuff to be the go-to gear for every situation, and that seems to be the way things are headed. There seems to be a mindset these days that establishing social dominance by being overbearing and intimidating is the ‘right’ way to deal with the public.

      Dunno if they’re actually training guys to do that or if I’ve just had the misfortune to run into jerks.

      • You are correct, situation should dictate what type of gear they use and the type of response; however I would want those military weapons as an option on the table for the police to use should the need arise.

        To be fair, some members of the public (OWS’er’s in particular) seem to be more defiant of law enforcement. While that doesnt necessitate the use of M16s on them (sadly), it shows that law enforcement may need to prepare for situations like that.

  12. I find it strange that a municipality like Coon Rapids, MN finds the need to issue that type of firepower. I would expect that more in say, Minneapolis? It would not surprise me at all to see a member of this police department in future issues of IGOTD. I just don’t think there are going to be too many opportunities to cut loose with these weapons, and sombody will do something stupid.

    • A lot of small towns are on interstate highways or other roads used by gangs and drug runners.Hometown criminals are not what that kind of weapon upgrade are aimed at.But it is still scarey to see that kind of firepower going to organizations that are unwilling to verify they are raiding the proper address until after the raid.

      • “A lot of small towns are on interstate highways or other roads used by gangs and drug runners.”

        lol wut? You need full auto weapons for some guy driving thru town in a car?

        • Having lived in a small town where a drug runner did, in fact, run through town and was making a high-speed run from the LEO’s, here’s the thrilling conclusion to an actual high-speed drug runner chase:

          Fish & game warden, a 12-ga shotgun and the suspect’s tires all met at the same place and time. Situation done and over with.

      • Coon Rapids is essentially a suburb. Nothing ever happens there. Nothing. A standard officer with his service pistol can handle pretty much anything in Coon Rapids.

        I live in the area, but not in Coon Rapids. There is a lot more interesting stuff happening in Muderopolis or Brooklyn Center (though BCPD already have their rifles, so perhaps Coon Rapids felt left out?)

  13. Serious criminals seem to be residing in their area, did they get a tank or two to go with their new rifles?

    • An even smaller NH town got “our own tank.” (Read the video description):

      http://youtu.be/xnaDQXwwzmY

      It doesn’t really bother me that law enforcement has these things. What bothers me is that Federal tax dollars invariably pay for it and that these weapons may be pointed at people suspected of victimless crimes when their homes and businesses are raided.

    • Keene got an APC? Doesn’t make sense. LA and NYC should get the next de-commissioned aircraft carrier, complete with fighters and A-10s, to make things fair.

  14. It’s a shame these rifles aren’t put in the civilian marksmanship program instead.

    • I was thinking the same thing. Maybe when the A3s get retired they’ll be put in for purchase.

  15. IN the thirties full auto Thompson’s were common because of prohibition. In the forties, fifties and sixties alcohol was legal and the gang violence diminished; so did the need for lots of firepower. Since then, the war on drugs has been the cause of most of the gang violence. LEGALIZE DRUGS and most of the need for increased firepower will go away and so will many of the problems drugs cause. Most of the federal and State cops have a vested interest in keeping the drug war going to protect their turf.

    • The diminshed firepower had nothing to do with Prohibition. The Feds outlawed automatic weapons in most private hands in the 1930s. By the 1950s they had disappeared from criminal arsenals due to seizure and attrition. Automatic weapons did not become common military items until the 1960s and did not start leaking into illegal civilian markets until after the Vietnam War.

  16. This is a great way to reduce manpower costs! Now instead of ten officers missing ten shots each when they raid the wrong house, Coon Rapids can have one officer miss 100 shots in the same amount of time. The other nine LEOs can continue to enjoy their donuts. It’s a win-win all the way.

    • http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/State_Agency_Investigating_Buckholts_Police_Chief__161619225.html
      http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/waltz_the_charge_officer_8jQ7kbvZwVhaU4PxNi917K?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=Manhattan
      http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/07/06/case-of-marine-veteran-killed-by-cops-may-be-worse-than-trayvon-martin/
      http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-08/news/32578409_1_police-shooting-philadelphia-police-officers-internal-affairs-review
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169051/Robert-Leone-beaten-state-police-shocking-video-posted-YouTube.html

      It isn’t THAT big a mystery, is it?

    • And you never will. They’re the mafia with uniforms and guns and a constant reminder that big brother will ruin your life when he damn well feels like it.

    • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      I wouldn’t say its cop hate, its more like distrust and disappointment.

    • exactly what don’t you get? or has the continuous amounts of TTAG posts on LEO, negligent discharges, no knock raids ON THE WRONG HOUSE, shooting dogs, etc has not shown the extreme incompetence (with zero accountability to boot) of far too may LEO’s out there running around with impunity to kick down your door, point guns at your kids, shoot your dogs and then say “sorry” and leave you to clean up the mess. giving them a :”happy switch” will add to the problem.

    • What you (and other apologists) don’t “get” is this:

      It used to be that LEO’s could count on the gun-owning public as some of their strongest supporters (back in the 60’s and early 70’s). Then the drumbeat by police chiefs in big cities began for gun control, with utterly specious reasoning and logic, including the demonization of law-abiding gun owners exercising their rights guaranteed by the US Constitution.

      The tide really started turning the 80’s, and early 90’s when calls by LEO’s, police unions and retired cops really ramped up. Law-abiding gun owners were demonized, ridiculed and belittled by these law enforcement organizations. I had California cops tell me in the early 90’s, to my face, that if they had their way, they’d seize all my guns and they would be done with it. It was only because they learned that I had considerable financial resources to employ lawyers (NB the plural) to give them a real hassle that they didn’t. What did I do to deserve this? Own guns the cops thought I shouldn’t own, but which the law said I could own.

      Now we have outrageous instances of sheer incompetence costing people their lives in police actions wherein the cops can’t be troubled to insure they are about to break down the correct door for the warrant which they are holding. It is such a simple thing to read a warrant – the address, type and owner of property that may be searched/seized is spelled out quite clearly on warrants. I’ve seen several, and there’s really no “fine print” in them. There is no excuse for getting an address wrong on a warrant service; getting it right is why we pay for cops, why they are supposed to be ‘professionals’ and why we don’t have the common citizen mob dispensing justice.

      If I wanted any random door to be broken down and people inside shot, I wouldn’t have to pay “professional” wages, nor give out a pension benefit. There’s gangs roaming the street that will perform this “service” for free.

      Then we have the multiple cases in the last few years of cops, “in hot pursuit” on foot, entering people’s yards and shooting their dogs – no warrant was in evidence. In other cases, cops serving warrants execute dogs in kennels/cages, or just shoot dogs which are wholly harmless, including in one case, a Corgi. If you’re scared of a Corgi, for chrissakes turn in your man card. You’re done. Go become a fashion model or something similarly useless.

      In case you haven’t noticed, Americans love their dogs. Love their dogs. Want to piss off Americans? Mess with their dogs.

      Want to make Americans boiling mad at you? KILL their dogs.

      This, police departments all over the country have been doing with impunity. They don’t apologize, they never accept blame, they always hide behind their sovereign immunity.

      Sorry, but police have brought this turn of events down on their own heads. The taxpayers pay their salaries and (increasingly) grossly inflated pensions… so we taxpayers are in a position to pass judgement on cops. If cops don’t like the parameters of their jobs, they can find other jobs. Most cops should find other jobs, IMO, because they’re simply lazy bums who who can’t be troubled to grow a pair and call out the corruption and incompetence in their midst. They always hide behind the “blue wall” and never clean up their own ranks. Such people are, IMO, cowards, and have no business being in control of lethal force.

      • +3

        Agree wholeheartdly (spl?) it seems that most cops involved in shootings these days get a little carried away with a high capacity semi-automatic pistol, let alone a M-16? I almost want to say lets go back to issuing them six shot revolvers, so they’re a little more deliberate, and dependent on skill instead of spray-and-pray.

    • So many cop haters on this thread…I don’t get it.

      MotoJB, practice law for thirty days and you will get it. I’ve represented mobsters who had more integrity than the average big city cop. Falsified evidence, murder for hire, rape, beating confessions out of innocent suspects, gun running, you name it, they’ve done it.

      Still, I don’t hate cops. But I despise the culture that let’s them get away with anything — anything. It’s an abomination.

      • That explains a lot Ralph…defense attorney. A defense attorney that admits to have taken “blood money” from MOBSTERS whom you say had more “integrity” than the average policeman. The irony in your post is bleeding from my computer screen. LOL. Wow man, just wow. Is it only me that finds this post quite remarkable? 😉

  18. Cops should have access to any weapon citizens in their state can legally purchase with a NICS check. No NFA toys for you officuh. So cops in “Assault Weapon” Ban states need to watch their evil features on semi-autos, too.

  19. Perhaps the best way to deal with cops is to bypass them. Orthodox Jews and Muslims are great at this. Simply live in smaller communities with an agreed upon set of standards. Mesirah and Taqiyya will protect you. Of course sexual abuse is easy to cover up in this method. Luckily Sharia-al-إبليس allows going to authorities in such situations.

  20. I don’t care what kind of guns they use, as long as they have the proper training.
    Oh wait…

  21. Never had a problem with cops myself (aside from the tickets I deserved and a few overly angry/overzealous cops that didn’t like me blowing by them at 120mph on my Ducati)…and I now know several guy’s who work for various bay area CA PD’s. They are some of the nicest, honest and caring dudes you’ll meet. Haters will always find and focus on what they want to see/believe. Too bad the media doesn’t put a similar focus on all of the good deeds and positive things cops do. Your “bad cop” belief is not the norm, IMO/IME. Most cops are good guy’s. They are in a dangerous, thank-less job that can perhaps make some a bit angry/jaded over time. I also find that those bitching about the cops often have ample reason to fear them (alcoholics, pot-smokers, trouble-makers, etc), therefore their arguments are not only improperly biased but completely invalid. How many of you cop haters here have actually had cops beat you down, violate your rights or severly mistreat you in any way? I bet we’d hear a bunch of stories, and the truth would be somewhere far off…

    • I’ll add that one of my cop buddies was just given an award for talking down a suicidal lady in a hostage-type situation…saved her life and perhaps others. That didn’t get any air time in the media, unfortunately.

    • I can be a ardent critic of law enforcement with being a cop hater. I have several friends in law enforcement and do a fine job in some of the bay area’s worst cities.

      Not all LEOs are good guys, and some of the good guys let them get away with being un-good guys. That’s the problem many of us have, in addition to the “you vs me” mentality many of them adopt. Examine the links posted above and do a little thinking about our positions on this subject before you start with painting the commentors here with such a broad brush and dropping back handed ad-hominem attacks.

      • Dude, there is no way that there are more bad than good…just not possible. Not only is this what I want to believe, but it is my experience. Back at you; why don’t you do a little thinking about your position on the subject before you start with paiting the cops that serve our public with a broad, negative brush. Lastly, I don’t see where I dropped “back handed ad-hominem attacks” – you’re either being way too sensitive, or just ridiculously overly-defensive. Believe what you want…I’m just saying that it seems like the attitude you’re bordering on here is part of the problem, not the solution.

        • “there is no way that there are more bad than good”

          I am willing to bet that every single currently employed LEO has, on at least one occasion, ticketed a person for some “offense” that was causing no harm to any other person or thing. That makes every single currently employed LEO a thief.

          Queue “the law is the law” indignation in 3… 2… 1

        • Was that “offense” a violation of a statute? If so, spare me your disgusted outrage.

          And don’t give me any crap about “it was a bad law” or “are you saying we should obey all laws, even the unjust ones?” or anything like that. You’re not referring to social justice, and you’re not referring to mixed race couples holding hands, or the like. You’re referring to stuff like rolling a stop sign at 0330 when there’s nobody around but you and the cop sitting there waiting to catch you. Sure it wasn’t hurting anything, but it was still against the law.

          {Edit:} Either the “cue indignation” line wasn’t there when I started typing, or I completely missed it. Either way, I laughed after I hit post. Thanks.

        • Sure, their are more good then bad. But how many have “embelished” on a police report. Written a BS ticket. Lied or looked the other way when one of their brothers in blue did something terrible. How many sit on panels where they decide weather a LEO convicted of felony assault and given a suspended sentence will get to keep his job? Sure their are lots of good cops, but not all of them police themselves.

          Implying that people with issues with LEOs are pot smokers, degenerates or some other kind of petty criminal is a back handed insult. That may not be how you meant it but that is how it reads. And as far as attitudes being the problem I beg to differ. I have never had a cross word with the police, volunteer at a few charitable organizations with some and play airsoft with several others. I have friends in law enforcement that agree with me and are part of the Oath-keepers.

          The founders of this nation knew that people had the capacity to be real cruel to one another. They built check and balances into our system to limit that. Not every department has a similar approach to equal justice; which is the problem many of us have.

        • Mr. Bowman has a big mouth here. I bet when he gets caught in a revenue stop going 15 mph over the limit he is a yes sir, no sir kind of guy.

          As for me I never dispute speeding ticket charges because when I get stopped (once in the last seven years) I am going faster than our elected representives said I go. If you don’t like the speed limit elect somebody who will raise it. Until then stop whining.

        • tddinva,
          The fact that you recognize that it is a “revenue stop” and has nothing to do with public safety is encouraging.

          However, the fact that you also think it’s perfectly legitimate for an “elected representative” to dictate how you exercise your right to travel outside the bounds of malice, recklessness, or public safety is deeply troubling.

          BTW, I do my very best to avoid interactions with police. On the occasions that I’ve been forced to interact with them, I say as little as possible and “Am I free to go?” is my mantra. Maybe your “yes, massa” insult attempt is merely projection.

        • I look at it like this. The elected representives set the limits. The cops are told to do a combination of keep the roads safe and collect revenue. I decide to drive a certain speed and once in a while I get caught. It’s a game. Most of the time I win but once every seven year I lose. Why should deny the officer the pleasure of his victory? Sounds to me like you strike an attitude because it makes you feel manly. Pity you.

    • Most police are good people, I entirely agree. So do you really want your LE friends risking their lives to raid homes in the search of intoxicating plant matter? Is the problem of drug abuse really worth the risks entailed by that kind of response?

      Also, it’s not just pot-smokers and trouble-makers who get their doors knocked down. If it happened to a Maryland Mayor, do you really think it couldn’t happen to you? http://youtu.be/B9Com08ILgQ

      And if it did happen to you (God forbid) the only people who would care are the folks you call “cop haters.”

  22. Again, we’re well on our way to becoming a police state. Making our civilian police into storm troopers. Again, I’m a trained storm trooper (well, paratrooper anyway) and I’ve been in a firefight or two in an urban setting. The only place I’ve ever fired an M16 or M4 on full auto (or three round burst) is on a range. Well aimed single shots are far more effective than spray and pray on full auto. I wonder who is teaching that lesson to Coon Rapids PD?

    For that matter, when are they going to get their armored vehicles? If you have the M16s you might as well get an M113 or two. If you’ve got the M113, of course you’re going to need the M2 to mount on it. Don’t forget the helicopters for air support.

    I’m not anti-cop. I used to be a cop. A lot of my friends are cops. What I am is anti-militarization of the police. That includes Federal, State, and Local Law Enforcement. When you dress people like soldiers, and arm people like soldiers, they start to treat civilians as the enemy.

    I’m more concerned that in 9 years the population of Coon Rapids is five times larger, but they have a 16 times larger police force. Typical of politicians, when times are good (tax revenue wise) increase everything, more cops, more firemen, more teachers, more, more, more. When times are bad and revenues go down, God forbid we cut back, we just raise taxes.

    • I agree. Full auto sounds nice on a movie sound track, but is of little real value unless you are using a belt fed gun, preferably with a T&E mechanism.

    • Full agreement.

      Were I on a cop’s beat, I’d rather have a handy bolt-action rifle in something like .260 Rem, 7mm08, with quality optics. It would put an end to a lot of situations with one shot.

    • A friend of mine in a SWAT guy in Arlington County VA. He told me that the longest shot in Arlington was under 60 yards (I think 57 yards was the number). That sounds about right for your average built up area. Your regular cop operating in a city does not need a battle or assault rifle in his arsenal. A pistol caliber carbine chanbered in the jurisdiction’s hand gun caliber will give the officer the range advantage and accuracy to deal with almost all armed encounters he may find himself in. In few cases where more firepower is needed he can call in the SWAT team. That is what they were originally used for and not serving warrants. Even in the case where SWAT will be needed to finish the job a pistol caliber carbine will still give the officers enough firepower to hold their positions until SWAT arrives.

  23. What a great way to get the local Police tooled-up on your side when the eventual order comes down that all firearms are to be confiscated pursuant to the new UN treaty…

  24. basically, i support the police. the anarchy some preach here doesn’t work so well in the real world. think somalia. but i’m in agreement with not militarizing the cops. as a veteran i recognize that these tactics and hardware have no business in american cities. this has mostly come about, i believe, because of our failed war on drugs. if we legalized drugs and treated addicts as medical cases it would save society billions and do away with most of the reasons for providing this gear to cops.

  25. Law enforcement should be forbidden from using any equipment not available to citizens. After all they are simply citizens hired to enforce the law.

    • I’ve always been of the mind that given proper training, cops should have the fastest cars and the best weapons. BUT…..

  27. How about we open up the machine gun registry and I will fork over $3k for an M16A1? I would personally pay that much for a weapon that’s 40 years old. But snowballs and hell and so forth…

    And what kind of overhead is included in their SBR? a new barrel = $300. Even a top of the line collapsible stock is no more than $250 for one with all the bells and whistles.

  28. The real question here is when these rifles were manufactured. If they were manufactured and accepted by the military BEFORE May 19th, 1986, then they could arguably be transferable guns. Then, when the local yokels realize how much it will cost them to refurb the rifles into usable condition, they can sell them off for 5,000-10,000 grand a pop to us normal people. The PoPo can then turn around and get brand new post-86 M16A4’s and/or M4’s, for under 1,000 each.

    Everyone wins.

  29. We can’t win the argument that the AR/M16 is perfectly OK for civilian use if we simultaneously bitch about cops using them. It’s either America’s Modern Sporting Rifle or a Scary Black Assault Weapon. Pick one and apply the same arguments for use/ownership to both situations. Let the cops have the low cost worn out military guns to use as patrol rifles.

    The arguments in favor of the AR platform in .223 as a better choice than a pump shotgun as a lethal long arm for law enforcement are many: reduced recoil, increased capacity, one kind of ammo works at all ranges, ability to penetrate (some) body armor, re-tasking of pump shotgun for less lethal reduces likelihood lethal will be used when less lethal intended, just to list a few.

    • Yes we can. Our military uses those to destroy governments and kill people offensively. Our police are not supposed to be able to do those things. Police should have primarily defensive weapons.

      Civilians should have the means to overthrow the government, which is the entire purpose of the 2d Amendment. The more open that power is, the less likely it will be needed.

  30. militarizing the police is bad. a lot of this comes from our failed war on drugs. legalize drugs and remove the profit motive from the gangs and corrupt politicians and cops can go back to getting stuck kittens out of trees. and i agree that cops should not have weapons that aren’t available to all law abiding citizens. but i also see that we need cops on the street, anarchy looks better in video games than in real life.

  32. I don’t care if they issue the police old M-60s and AT-4s. It’s the how they use them that matter. Give them some ROE and that make sense and make sure they are TRAINED, most of the crap I see in the news and on this website involving police appear to be related to poor training and bad habits..

  33. It has never been easier for civilians, law abiding or not, to run and gun with military grade hardware. There is no reason law enforcement officers shouldn’t be tooled up just as much as I am…

    If the issue is that the antique rifles that they are being given are full auto than thats just silly. They aren’t going to all the sudden be spraying and praying. It will take one time at the range for the officers to figure out that semi is the name of the game. If you think that that in your world of martial law that somehow you will be going toe to toe with LE on the streets and will have a disadvantage because they have an extra mode of fire… well it just shows that you don’t know much about urban combat.

    The “all cops should have is a revolver” people on here blow my mind routinely. A gun is a tool of their job. You wouldn’t expect them to drive around in cars from the 60s anymore… Or use antique radios. A sidearm is no different.

    In a time when I can legally walk around with 17+1 hollow points on my hip being cautious and avoiding danger. You expect people who’s job it is to put their lives in danger on a routine basis to be carrying something less effective than me? That is unbelievable.

  34. The citizens are supposed to be as well armed as the govt.Any excuse that “the man”needs fullauto while we sheeple-taxslaves are forbidden is morally&constitutionally wrong.George Washington said “Necessity is the creed of slaves and the excuse of tyrants”. I like the idea of the rifles going to the C.M.P. and we throw out all 20,000+ unconstitutional gun laws!KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY,SEMPER FI!

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