In the video above, the former Mayor of Louisville, Kentucky’s St. Regis suburb reckons people shouldn’t be scared by an incident of “gun violence.” That’s because “it’s a rare thing.” You wouldn’t know that from the mainstream media, which follows ye olde dictum “if it bleeds it leads.” (That said, you don’t see automotive fatalities every day, and they’re just as common.) Anyway, have you seen a firearms-related injury or fatality? I was on the scene seconds after a neighbor in the house behind mine shot himself in the head. Not pretty. It made me [even more] sensitive to mental health issues. What have you seen shooting-wise and how did it effect you?
Didn’t see it, but an old boss was shot and killed almost 10 years ago. That and my ex’s Uncle committed suicide by cop.
If you follow at most two degrees of separation just about everybody knows someone who has been shot.
Is that the question? I read it as “did you SEE it?” Gun violence has certainly been a part of my life, but I, personally, have never seen an untreated gunshot wound.
I had my first and very nasty case of M1 Garand thumb at the range last weekend, does that count? xD
Everytime I build a new gun, they require a blood sacrifice. My M76 smashed my finger when I had a stuck case and my finger slipped off of the charging handle. Then last weekend my AK74 in 300BLK (yes, 300blk because why not?) got me when I was testing the action without the gas tube. It pinched my finger between the piston and gas block. Not a great feeling from these bloodthirsty hunks of evil metal.
Never have, now that you mention it. Have seen plenty of car wrecks, including one right across the street from my house, with the driver trying to revive his dead girl-friend passenger. BTW, “if it bleeds it leads” doesn’t seem to apply so much unless it bleeds from a gunshot wound–but you knew that, right? EDIT: I did have a co-worker, several decades ago, who was shot at a “block party” for messing with someone else’s wife or some such.
In high school a kid was worried about getting jumped after school, so he brought a pistol with him. It accidentally/negligently went off in the cafeteria. Nobody hurt, although the ricochet hit someones book bag. Assistant principle got full Superman in the air and speared the kid. Not particularly violent, but an incident.
On the civilian side of the street, I’ve only been involved in “shootings” where I was the one hit. The first was a ricochet from a .22 when I was a kid that thankfully only really broke the skin on my chest. That incident scared me off of shooting guns until I was in the Marine Corps. The second incident was an ND at an outdoor range a few years ago. That one went through two intermediate barriers and got caught by my plate carrier. My first thought was “Not again.” … My second thought is not fit to print.
Overall, it got me really paranoid about range safety and muzzle discipline. Needless to say, that the outdoor range that hosted the second incident lost my business permanently.
Holy sh*t…..
What the hell kind of muzzle discipline / lane control / RCOs / any safety measures were there at the range, for you as a shooter to stop a round?!? Very glad to hear you were wearing plates.
I mean, on live fire/manoeuvre exercises etc. anyone can see the possibility for accidents to happen. A friend of a friend was killed during an exercise when the SAW gunner never heard the order to “switch fire” as they were about to assault through the position…
But I’ve never been on a range – military, civilian or improvised – where basic safety discipline was so poor that such a risk was anything more than vanishingly small.
Once again – very glad you’re still here to tell that cautionary tale.
To be fair, it was a very FREAK accident… I’ve been going shooting at least once per week for the past ten years, so it was bound to happen eventually. I do a lot of “tactical” shooting and try to wear a plate carrier as a matter of course. (It helps to train how you plan to fight.) I’ve recently upgraded to a full wrap IIIA carrier with pates. (The one that got shot was unserviceable, so I was down to an el-cheapo AR500 setup for a few years while I scraped together the cash to replace a $1200 setup.)
The guy in question was a blatant newb who was fiddling with his gun all morning and sent a round across the firing line by finger-fuckign his Glock.
Fair one (I suppose…!) – and I certainly agree with training as you intend to fight.
In my case the majority of training, including tactical work, team and fire/manoeuvre, etc., is carried out without armour for the same reason: we do not generally wear armour in the locations we’re working as it raises the profile excessively and – no disrespect intended – makes us look “more American” to the local population…
But I’m even more keenly aware of the possibility for things to go wrong, as a result. A few weeks back I was horrendously muzzled by an ANA General not used to the heavy trigger on a Taurus 24/7 G2, who turned right across the line (squeezing repeatedly but not quite hard enough!) to ask why it wasn’t working…….!
“The guy in question was a blatant newb who was fiddling with his gun all morning and sent a round across the firing line by finger-fuckign his Glock.”
Wait, now. And he somehow did not replace your plate carrier? That seems wrong on so many levels. Do you at least own that Glock? If not, is he still breathing?
Small claims court?
I wont say worked with, because we worked in different departments in the same building. But, I work for the same company that Dante Smith worked for before he decided to do some custom masonry at a church.
I see nussing, nussing.
Working in the ER years ago I saw a lot of unpleasant injuries, including burns, traffic accidents, and several GSWs.
…and in answer to the original article’s question:
Yes I have “seen gun violence”: more than enough of it, in various countries…
In my opinion this is a poor question, which either encourages people to post some grim anecdote, or else gives them a platform to ogle others’ horror stories. What does the question add?
I would be more interested in a question that elicits stories like pwrserge‘s above – for example:
“Question of the Day: Seen safety failings that led to an accident with guns?”
At least that gives some learning points, rather than merely a platform for voyeurism around incidents of gun violence…..
Just my $0.02 – very rare that I dislike an article on TTAG, so otherwise thanks for a great site! 🙂
Point of clarification: If it’s a safety failing, it’s not an “accident.”
I agree – but in this case I think I was actually being accurate, my intention being to elicit examples where safety failures resulted in otherwise safe gun handling resulted in an unintended outcome.
For example:
range was designed in such a way that shooters placed others at risk, without knowing that was the case; or
tactical training, team mate crossed into somebody’s area of fire;
etc.
I didn’t mean instances where someone failed to adhere to the four rules, or behaved in a grossly unsafe manner, as these would more correctly count as instances of negligence (which I think is your point?).
The damage that can be inflicted with guns is immense. It’s part of the truth about guns, after all. People who’ve never seen that up close and personal may just acknowledge it in passing, but not have any connection to it making it real. Stories shared by familiar voices in here can bridge that gap.
What one considers voyeurism, another might call a cautionary tale. If a little blood and gore horror story telling helps people maintain perspective and redoubles their effort to avoid having to discharge their firearm in any but recreational uses, then so be it. It’s tantamount to showing auto accident films to people in driver’s ed classes.
I guess that’s a fair point. I just sometimes get fed up with people asking dumb questions like: “have you ever shot someone”, or “have you seen someone get blown up”… and I looked at the question through that lens. Unless they are idiots they can probably work out the answer for themselves.
You’re absolutely right that people should understand the harm that the tools they’re using may potentially cause. If horror stories are a (the) way to do so then fair enough.
But anyone who doesn’t appreciate that potential is probably not a gun-owner (or if they are, what the hell do they think happens when fast-moving metal connects with squishy people??)….?
If they aren’t a gun-owner, therefore, I’d suggest that questions which draw out safety lessons are a better way to go – at least initially – since it has a practical purpose, and also poses less risk of scaring them away from guns??
I would welcome the equivalent disclosure of legal ramifications from tripping one. Particularly if it smacked someone.
Yep, seen it. And I’ve seen criminals who don’t give a sh!t about any laws, much less gun laws. I think the most I’ve seen is a guy who’s been arrested 41 times.
” I think the most I’ve seen is a guy who’s been arrested 41 times.”
We had a Felony DUI (with a fatality) case where the person driving had had 19, if I recall correctly, previous DUI convictions.
Sadly this sort of thing as well as what you describe is more the rule than the exception.
Yeah, seen it plenty of times, too often. Seen people survive things they shouldn’t, and people die from what looks like a small wound.
Heard gunshots pop off around the corner, when we arrived there were two guys laying in a pile bleeding everywhere. They had been fighting with a gun and each one shot the other with it. After securing the gun and patting them down I started doing first aid on one who was shot just below his sternum. I stopped the bleeding and thought he was going to be ok, he starting saying he couldn’t breathe, and shortly afterwards he was dead. Bullet went in and shredded his lung(s)? Just saying it looked like a small wound from a 9×19 Smith and Wesson M&P that I thought he was going to be fine, but unfortunately for him this was not the case
That’s just one example of many. Also seen what a .22 can do to a person when it goes in the head, it’s not pretty.
Sure plugged up plenty of bullet holes in people. One year with in 100 yards of the firehouse we had 5 shot dead . Most I had in one night was 3 .
I have never had direct experience of gun violence in everyday life. I have, however, been victim of “airplane violence.”
WTF, over.
Sure, I’ve seen it plenty. And, I hunt, so there’s that.
How has it effected me? Well, it has made me appreciation the seriousness of carrying a firearm every day and the seriousness of possibly having to use that firearm.
My experiences have also made it to where I am not entertained by “gun violence” in movies, especially suicides. I like action movies and don’t boycott them or anything, but I usually look away or close my eyes for “certain scenes.” I can see enough of that stuff in my own memories; I don’t need some Hollywood fakery to try to show me what it’s like.
+1
I saw Tex Grubner shoot himself on YouTube. Does that count?
Good ‘ol Tex Grebner. That video never gets old.
“Good ‘ol Tex Grebner.”
People sure love busting Tex’s balls on that, but as far as I’m concerned, I give him credit for having the guts to post it…
IIRC, he admitted in that video that he was using a thumb release Serpa designed for a different weapon and throwing a 1911 in it.
I’ll give him credit for posting his mistake, but it was stupidity that led to it, not just a pure accident.
I saw Elmer Fudd shoot Daffy Duck several times on Looney Tunes. Does that count?
No, but’s it’s been a stone’s throw away a couple times.
I might have seen someone getting shot in the hood in CA, didn’t stick around to find out.
My Uncle has been beaten up and robbed in various places at various stages of life. He is tooled up basically 24/7 now. Understandably.
Car jacker got shot right across from my old neighborhood a few months after we moved.
Other than my brother shooting me in the FACE with a 22 blank(!) nope(I could of been blinded). I’ve certainly been near violence. And heard my fair share of gunshots(4th of July anyone?). I had an azzwhole pull a gun on me but he didn’t shoot…
I don’t count suicide, but a dude I work with shot himself a few weeks ago. Wasn’t a good friend or anything, but I knew him fairly well.
Seen the aftermath of a murder. GF shot BF in the side of the head with a small caliber gun. Of course, he didn’t die right away so she put a pillow on his face then a suitcase and sat on it until he was done. He deserved it anyway. He was a first class piece if sh–. He killed another guy because he owed him money. Chambered an incorrect rifle round into the wrong kind of rifle and shot him through the bedroom window. Blew his head all over the bedroom.
So anyway, the GF (Anal Amy) killed him and I saw him fresh from autopsy. He looked pretty good….other than the hole in the side of his head. That was July 31, 1994. Most other deaths….which have been plenty have been car accidents, drownings and drug overdoses. Lot of ODs.
My grandfather on my dads side offed himself with a shotgun to the head. Classy! I was very young then.
I’ve been around two incidents. My uncle shot himself in the knee so he wouldnt have to go on a 4th tour of Vietnam, I was 6 when that happened. When I was in my early twenties I was at a friends house when his aunt committed suicide with a 22lr zipgun made out of a ball point pen in the living room. That was a long night.
Never seen. Heard shots fired very close by a few times, but that’s it.
I guess this is as good a time as any to post this…now that the guy is serving time for what he did.
I was in a small apartment building when someone drove up, got out of his car, put multiple rounds into the building (including into the apartment I was in), nearly killing a lady in the adjacent apartment (he was a horrible shot), then drove off. Apparently he came back later that evening and fired more shots into the air. He was arrested later and ultimately pled to one (out of more than ten) counts of attempted first degree murder.
I never saw him. If I had, things could have been very different.
By the way, some of the patterns pressed into linoleum flooring are worth examining very, very closely when stuff like this happens.
Yes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObZtVDO-_g
Took 7 rounds of 10mm Critical Duty.
It was Don’s guns so.
I’ve seen every kind of deadly violence, and I assure you that all of it is ugly. All of it.
I agree 100 percent.
Seeing people that have been carved up with knives is just as, if not more, gruesome than someone with a bullet wound.
Seen the outcome of someone crashing a car on a back road and getting burned black. Happened Three houses from my in-laws house when my wife and I were visiting…you don’t ever want to smell fried human. Seen the scars that happened from a 38 spl when a 110 gr hollow point broke his humerus and ended up just under the skin of his chest (he was largely culpable in incident of idiotic gun handling by teenagers). I have a lot of stories about this guy in his short life.
“….I knew the gun was loaded, but I didn’t think it’d kill….”
Glenn Frey
“Smuggler’s Blues”
I find it odd how deaths caused by car accidents, medical malpractice, drug overdoses, and intentional self-harm are considered “acceptable” but one death caused by firearms (including suicide) is time to wave the bloody shirt.
27 years ago over 95 people were crushed to death at a soccer game in England. And the police deliberately lied and tried to white-wash and cover up their actions that caused the deaths. This hardly ranks as a blip on the radar because it doesn’t suit the narrative.
OK, but I’m minimizing factoids which could identify participants, and I still might get in trouble. *Old* friends, who used to borrow our first son to see what it would be like, enough later that their children were grown and gone, except one. He, repeatedly, got way out there on drugs, and they cashed in all their savings to send him to rehab again and again, so that he could get with another girlfriend, do more drugs, and get sent to rehab yet again. Of course, it was mom and dad who were paying for the rehabs, to keep junior out of jail. Finally, a pissing contest about him begging for a bottle of booze for tonight, to prepare for rehab tomorrow. Dad told mom to go get a bottle of booze, when she returned he had shot his son and himself to death. I suspect (don’t know) mom had repeatedly insisted on paying up to keep him out of jail, until there was no money left, he had no choices he could see. A fine man, and I miss him, love his wife, and visit from time to time. I think if he did not have a gun he would have bought one, if he could not do that he’d have used a hammer or a knife. He loved his son, and he loved his wife, but he had no way out that he could see.
Someone I knew shot his own testicle off. Long story short safety rules were ignored and he paid a price for it.
Saw a drug deal go bad and end in full auto. Learned to avoid the hood better to go around than pass through. Moved out of chiraqu.
Was car jacked at gun point. Learned that the system CAN work if you are insistent enough. He got 15 years instead of 3 months. Now
I carry everyday and try to stay condition yellow.
Working in a prison I saw ‘prison violence”. In the service I saw “military violence”. Working as a driver I see “vehicle violence” quite often.
I think violence should be illegal. We need Violence Free Zone signs.
I was a paramedic for 12 years. I have seen and dealt with a number of gunshot wounds, including one fellow who tried to kill himself with a .25 shot to the head. Knocked him unconscious. When he awoke, he tried again, shot himself again above and just forward of the temple area. Out again. By the time we got there he was almost dead of hypothermia (February) but the gunshots never did kill him. I had to help clean up a bathroom after a head shot that was as bad as it gets. Knew one big guy, shot 4 times with a 9mm, 2 in each leg and he was walking around in a week. Another call a older woman on her back porch. Look just like a natural death except for what looked to be a rather ragged button hole on her shirt. The smallest .22 hole with no bleeding what so ever. In the end, I think what has had the largest impact on me is what i have shot. The first deer maybe. Elbow deep in it. The smell of iron. I may be too hardened, but the gunshot is not nearly as bad as a 3rd degree burn or a terrible car crash.
Yeah, I saw someone ND and the bullet hit me. On 2 different occasions. I like to shoot alone or in much more carefully selected groups now.
As a paramedic and army combat medic, I’ve seen literally hundreds of bullet and blast injuries over the last 20 years. And from what I saw, I’ll take a bullet wound over a vehicle rollover for the treatment of injuries any day of the week. Also saw a child stuck between the wheels of a semi and drug for about a mile, that actually lived. Salvaged one partial limb. Many of the bones in his torso were ground flat. Only one like that I’ve seen.
In the early 90’s, I lived in a rough section of Boston while working for the Catholic Church. One night I heard shouting, several gun shots, and saw one man chasing another screaming “I’ll kill you!” Since there wasn’t a murder reported the next day, I guess he never did.
There was a young man in the neighborhood, Chris, who was involved in some religious group and sold incense and other items at the (Orange Line) Metro station. He was a nice guy, and always said “Good morning” to me. One day Chris heard screams from a robbery just outside the Metro station. He ran over to stop it, and was shot in the head for his trouble. He died instantly.
Six months later I was working in West Kingston, Jamaica with the Catholic Church. Our neighborhood was directly east of Trenchtown (from the Bob Marley song). The neighborhood was a war-zone divided between gangs aligned with the two major Jamaican political parties — the People’s National Party (PNP) and the Jamaica Labor Party (JLP). They fought to ensure only their party’s supporters had access to jobs and services. The neighborhood was incredibly violent.
The southern part of our neighborhood was in JLP territory and the northern half was a PNP stronghold. One day a PNP gang member walked into the southern half of the neighborhood looking for “Banana Man” – a well-known JLP gang member best known for his chrome-plated Hi-Power. He shot Banana Man five times, including the neck, then ran back north. Since he was shot a block away from Kingston Public Hospital, Banana Man survived.
A few days later, a bunch of JLP members went north looking for the guy who shot Banana Man. They couldn’t find him, so they shot an innocent guy riding past on a bicycle. The victim didn’t stop because he was deaf. [You can’t make this stuff up.] A few days after that, the PNP and JLP guys had a midnight shootout, resulting in a JLP gang member taking a shotgun blast to the chest. Once the ledger books were even, things quieted down.
Then we had a guy, also named Chris, who was in his early 20’s but severely crippled and brain damaged from an untreated case of meningitis. Chris was a complete innocent, who walked around on his hands while dragging his legs behind him. He came to church every Sunday.
Chris’s brother was a JLP gang member and drug dealer. One day, some PNP rivals came south looking for his brother. When they couldn’t find the brother, they chased after Chris. He crawled on his hands as fast as he could, and made it to the front door of our church rectory before the gang caught up with him. They shot him in the face so his mother couldn’t have an open casket wake.
One final memory was being about to walk five blocks to our church school when I got news that four men had been shot in the neighborhood an hour previously. I was supposed to teach a class, and I wasn’t ready for a bunch of thugs to stop my students from learning. I walked through neighborhood, taught my class, and made sure my students stayed away from the windows.
I know what it’s like to live in a world where only the bad guys have guns. I don’t like that world. I want the bad guys to be afraid of the good guys with the guns.
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