“French police trying to stop the truck that inflicted all the carnage in Nice fired many rounds at the driver,” gun guru John Farnam writes at ammoland.com. “Many did not penetrate doors. Many did not even penetrate the windshield! Most were pistol rounds of course, but when my rifle comes out, I want to be in a position to get inside vehicles with bullets. In my 5.56×45 AR, I have a magazine filled with Cor-Bon 62gr DPX. Unlike 55gr hardball, DPX goes through car doors!” Time to change your rifle ammo?
That’s more or less what m855 ball is designed to do.
Have you considered shooting a few inches higher at the glass instead of the metal of the door?
Most police in America use 55gr in their patrol rifles as far as I know. It may not punch through commie helmets or soft vests as well, but it has better effects on soft, squishy humans.
Probably time to change caliber. I suggest having a few sharpshooters with .308 caliber rifles on standby.
Absolutely. People need to get over the weaknesses of the 5.56 and stop trying to turn it into a do it all round. You want car door and windshield penetrating power? Get a .30 caliber be it a .308, 7.62×39, .300 BLK and you’ll have a true do it all rifle.
People only gravitate to .223/5.56 because of the low price.
5.56 will go right through car doors and windshields, the problem is that they can be deflected away from the target by doing so. As serge pointed out M855 solves this problem and is currently cheaper than M193 anyway.
Thank you so much for this honesty! When I was much younger and first got into rifles, I started on .30 calibers like most people did in those days. Time came around and I got into .223 like everybody else. Thing is, I lived way out on the prairie, and unlike most people, had the range in my own backyard to test rifles regularly in ways most people can’t. I’d go to the gun shop and there’d be guys like, “When the SHTF I am going to take out my AR and…blah, blah, this or that, sniping, sniper… .” The reality of my daily shooting on the prairie (I have a 500 yard range on my own property) in real, moving wind has made the .223 laughable to me. In a 10 mph, ok, you might be fine. Let it come up just a little, though – even to 20, and those bullets, even the heavy ones, will move so far off target to make that rifle a clown show. We went to minimum of .243 for any serious distance, and that with 100 grainers. It isn’t a battle rifle, people, in real world circumstances. Your grandfather wasn’t entirely correct, but he was pretty close. Mass matters.
Reminds me of the worst range day ever (for me). Predeployment qualification at Ft. Riley KS in the winter time preparatory to OIF04 (because nothing prepares you for the desert like Kansas in December). It was 20 below with the wind chill, and the wind was really whipping across the prairie. IDK what the wind speed was, but I remember aiming with the sights off target (we were shooting a 25m battlesight zero on a 300m computer scored range) to get hits. No bueno.
It’s not exactly mass. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times Velocity squared.
Also it’s balistic coefficient that keeps the velocity up over the distance, which gives the wind less time to operate on the bullet as it travels to the target.
I agree, .30 caliber is better, but the bullet design is important for penetration. Considering that auto body thickness is only .033 per side, a lack of penetration is inexcusable.
What about the reinforcing steel in the doors required by fed safety standards?
I think a lot of police agencies switched to hollow point to reduce the number of people injured by over penetration. Funny your wife never complained.
Rekt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Quq7zmNTWs
55 grain hardball goes through car doors just fine.
I use hand loaded 200gr Hot Cor and 280 & 290gr Outlaw State .338s in my SHTF gun. They are slow but they do penetrate well. I also bought some M80A1 projectiles (for a future rifle) when they were available. Those seem like they will be particularly nice – sure wish I have bought a lot more than I did.
What kind of ammo were les flics using that couldn’t penetrate, say, 16 gauge (1/16th of an inch) sheet steel or thinner? I’m not sure how thick the steel was on that truck, but it surely wasn’t armor plated.
Probably 9mm. I don’t believe police in other countries use .40 or .45.
No other developed country in the world uses .40;-)
We switched to .40 when other countries were still of the belief that .32 ACP and .380 were perfectly acceptable manstoppers.
That was my question, too. I read recently that most centerfire pistol ammo would go right through BOTH doors on a car. Do the cops use reduced loads or something?
I plan to depend on my DPMS G2 once I get it to work (jams). .308 negates body armor as well as car doors, kills cars with one shot to the motor, could be handy, just make sure your background is clear!
Don’t count on it’s ability to penetrate body armor. If the target is wearing Level IIIA or less, a 5.56 will penetrate every bit as well as a .308. If the target is wearing Level III or IV, then both 5.56 and .308 will be stopped. Basically, there is no class of body armor out there that distinguishes between 5.56 and .308.
+1
Although as I’ve noted on previous threads, don’t depend on your body armour either – especially ceramic plates that have been around for a while. Even without wear and tear, environmental degradation works over time: I’ve tested high quality NIJ Level IV with IIIa soft armour behind, that has failed against standard pressure 9mm FMJ. And the same spec armour has woefully failed against 12ga. slug…
Good point about composite plates. They do have to be replaced after a period of time.
Obviously this whole story is incredibly suspicious if you ask me. How could the bullets not penetrate the friggin glass? Why was the truck not stopped by magnetic wave interruption? Answer: False friggin flag.
As I’ve been saying for what feels like forever, this terrorism nonsense is clearly wrought by hand not along this world. There was no driver of the truck, it wasn’t driven, it was being moved by a gravitational manipulator. That’s the reason it didn’t hardly slow down despite hitting so many people. Come wake up guys!
This is just the opening salvo in an interstellar conflict and we’re sitting here on our laurels arguing about bullet penetration. Our weapons will be useless against the real enemy. We need polyurethane projectiles, microwave emitters, obviously need aircraft aluminum helmets and as much magnetic tape as you can get your hands on (for keeping the buggers out)!
Stay safe and keep your eyes to the skies!
Not sure if this is satire or insanity… Either way, it makes for good reading. Keep it up, SgtSky.
‘Why was the truck not stopped by magnetic wave interruption?’
Magnetic wave interruption doesn’t work on diesels. No spark plugs.
The level of ignorance of magnetic wave interruptor’s effects is astounding. Think maybe the truck has a computer genius? What is this 1993?
Keep you head out of your butt, your eyes to the skies and stay safe!
At close range a magnetic wave interrupter can take out a truck’s computer, however it can’t engage the breaks. Probably take 300 feet to stop the truck. Sounds like a suicide mission if you ask me.
Thank goodness I’m not you! You seem to be using outdated technology if you need to get that close. Try collimating your interruptor. Or just let the big boys handle it for you.
Keep your eye to the skies and stay safe.
Bear in mind, I wasn’t there. And we’re talking about the French here. Remember the Maginot Line?
The bigger question is why didn’t Leela turn over control of the Planet Express Ship to Amy who could have easily plucked up that truck with the magnetic cargo clamp and flown it off into space?
Clearly the answer is either incompetent robot elders or the Professor was already in his pajamas.
(Oh man, I’m such a dick.)
Wow just gave yourself props there huh? Yeah th…that’s cool. Maybe your special aide can give you a high five too!
Props? No. I just fully realize and embrace the fact that I just said something terrible to someone who’s probably mentally ill and that making fun of the mentally ill pretty much makes me an asshole.
It’s kind of like saying something and then say “I’m going to hell for that one”.
You guys are so sensitive. You’re on the interwebz, lighten up.
The most common pistol is chambered in .380. Which is an improvement: they used to carry, almost exclusively, .32s. 9mm were for the military. Most of the SMGs used now are in 9 mm.
Also, considering its Europe, how old was the ammo in the carry guns? I can easily see it being years ammo sits in those guns before being fired. And Nice is a humid environment…
Generally speaking car doors are penetrated just fine by ball ammo. Certain JHP’s may be deflected from the original target, fly apart or hit the target with minimal effect due to having lost force because they lost mass and speed through the door. Generally the problem with a 5.56 rounds like the M193 will penetrate the door but they are prone to being deflected by doors and glass which is why M855 was developed way back in the Vietnam era, to achieve was flachettes had achieved with a shotgun.
Auto glass, particularly a windshield is another animal. Due to it’s “pancake” design it often does deflect bullets or cause them to fly apart. Again, M855 solves this problem. Yes, the bullet will likely deform and may lose a decent percentage of it’s mass but the core of the round will not be deflected (much) and will retain enough mass and velocity to put the hurt on someone behind that windshield.
strych9,
I would really like to see super-slow motion video of the effects that you are describing before I subscribe to your assertions about 5.56 x 45 mm bullets.
As for handgun rounds, I carry 180 grain hollowpoints in .40 S&W. I have seen super-slow motion video of those rounds hitting windshields at oblique angles and they seem to sail right on through, without any noticeable deflection, just fine. I suppose if I had an AR-15 and had to stop a truck, if the 5.56 mm bullets were not doing the job I could just pull out my handgun and dump 15 rounds of .40 S&W into the truck and stop it that way.
Ask and you shall receive. Various rounds against various surfaces including windshield glass shot from various angles.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/08/incredible-slow-motion-bullet-video/ ( Warning: If you really hate techno music mute the video.)
The specific problem I was talking about with M193 was noted in Vietnam through glass and thick foliage. The glass/plant material didn’t stop the bullet but rather changed it’s flight trajectory resulting in a miss or a minor wound compared to what the shooter desired. M855 was developed specifically to combat this problem.
Realistically it’s the angle the bullet impacts the glass at that will matter the most especially windshield glass. Bullet weight and design will matter as well.
The only good is that the truck wasn”t armored but i think about replacing my 10mm Glock white an 460 rowland glock conversion ………..
Even a 30-30 rifle or a shotgun with solids (Brenneke Classic) will roll through an auto body.
Faster than a bolt gun in most hands. 30-30s, 45-70s and Slug-Loaded shotguns used to be common in the south for road-block stops.
It should be obvious that we do have to worry about where those bullets that pass through will end up.
This is the reason that urban Europe used to rely on 9mm subguns.
I traded in my wood stocked Mini-14 for a Marlin 336BL because the Mini was just too tactical.
no, its time to change your CALIBER. thats why i dont like .223/5.56.
My gunsafe houses 7.62×39. I don’t think I have to worry about not penetrating ordinary car doors 🙂
So in Massachusetts switch to something like 45-70 in a lever gun? Too soon…?
” when my rifle comes out, I want to be in a position to get inside”
ROFLCOPTERRRRR
How about those spam cans of surplus ammo for my Mosin Nagant?
Those will work. And by the way, they aren’t surplus anymore.
Time to change your caliber. All the excuses for carrying 5.56 generally don’t hold for most of us. If you like your AR platform either get and AR-10 or upgrade you existing short action AR-15 to use something like 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC or 300 BLK otherwise get an M-1A or Ruger Mini-30.
At 25 yards, the 5.56 NATO round with either of the 55 or 62 grain NATO rounds will go through a car door. So will a 230 gr .45ACP FMJ or 185grHP. So will a 9mm 115gr FMJ or 124gr hollow point.
I’m really sure of that because I’ve shot all of those right through a car door.
The trick is all the stuff like window mechanism, the door handle and mechanism, cross members, etc. Anything other than that auto body seriously deflects and slows down the round.
Auto glass is a challenge that the 62gr NATO round helps fix, but there is still deflection.
What’s really a challenge is shooting from inside the vehicle through the front glass. The vertical deflection is extreme.
Re: from inside through glass: Kinda loud too?
So incredibly loud.
If you look at that windscreen it is clear that most all of the incoming rounds were fired from the passenger side at an oblique angle. 9MM is just not a reliable penetrator at those angles and 5.56 would likely be deflected as well. sometimes there just isn’t a great solution dealing with a vehicle, short of an RPG and they aren’t commonly issued to cops. A better solution would be to take out the vehicle with a car or truck, but that risks the officer inside and may not be possible in this kind of location. Prepositioned concrete barriers, or tree size planters would prevent truck or car access but are less helpful if you need to reopen the street later.
Which side of the vehicle is the steering wheel in France? I thought it was on the left side, driving on the right, like here in the U.S. But it seems that all of the bullet holes are in the passenger side of the glass. Were all of the officers on the passenger side and trying to shoot at an obtuse angle into the driver?
Or is the steering wheel on the right side of the vehicle?
Yep France drives on the same side we do. Britian is the odd man out.
And Aus.
Pretty much, if it’s an island country, they tend to lean to right-hand drive…
I noticed that too.
French drive on the right like usa last time I checked.
Its most likely a mirror image from the camera used to capture the photo. Some cameras give mirror images of the scene as opposed to the actual scene captured.
The letters visible in the image (“CE” on an open vehicle door and “POLICE” on one cop) suggest it is not a mirror image.
Not a mirror image. You can see the steering wheel through the windshield.
From a video of the final shooting, Must of the officers were coming up from the street side with the truck adjacent to a low barrier on the left side of the truck which was now on the left sidewalk from the perspective of the driver.
The driver sits a way back from the windshield which made the shot from the street angled through the passenger side of the windshield.
Pretty extreme angle through the glass for many of the shots.
Use M2AP .30/06. It will punch through 3/4″ of mild steel cleanly with its 700 Brinnell core.
What the heck is M2AP 700brinell is damn hard 66 rockwell “C” scale
It’s the armor piercing variant of .30/06 with the black tip and it’s amazing stuff. It is quite common actually. You can also find pull-down projectiles for reloading or sold by ammo remanufacturers in both .30/06 and .308. I know a guy who loads them into .300 Win Mag. The cores also make great center punches.
The specs say it’s 785 HV, not Brinnell. Converts to 63.4 on the Rockwell scale.
http://www.ammochannel.com/30-06-30-cal-m2-ap-armor-piercing/
So a bullet can’t penetrate a windshield but a shit rock from a tire can crack that sucker wide open? I’m not buying the story
Everyone should be using bonded ammo in their defensive weapons by now. Even a good bonded 5.56 will penetrate well and expand. Full copper will penetrate the glass, but the petals can be removed by the glass leaving a smaller projectile. Spend the money. I use Winchester 64 grain bonded solid base 5.56. It’s what the FBI uses, but it’s nuts expensive. In my 6.8spc 90 grain fed gold dot. .308 federal 150 grain bonded similar to gold dot. In 7.62×39 Hornady steel case plastic tip. Tho there is better 7.62×39 ammo that is bonded out there. I refuse to run brass in my AK.
Federal has a whole line of decent bonded ammo that is not nuts expensive.
Handguns same thing bonded ammo! It’s 2016.
I keep several mags full of Federal Tactical Bonded .223 62gr, I think I’m good.
I love how the bulk of the comments here are about how poor 5.56 is for stopping vehicles when it wasn’t even used in this case. All of the shots on this truck were taken by French patrol officers, who carry Sig 2022’s. All of those shots are 9mm, at a truck on the move. If you think shooting a driver through the windshield of a moving vehicle is easy or that the truck will stop when the driver is hit, you have been watching too many movies. Even if the first shot fired had killed the driver instantly, think how far a loaded truck moving at a good clip will travel on momentum alone. I think these guys did pretty well given the situation and the gear at hand.
Solid analysis Hobbez.
Fyi guys, French cops are using some kind of underpowered 9mm rounds which cannot even penetrate a regular tire. It is mostly due to the fear of overpenetration and lack of training (they shoot less than 70 rounds every 6 months). If you only knew how low the overall French police marksmanship skills are, you’d be astounded. Their elite swat teams are among the world best though.
Is it possible that Le Francais would be using a Fraunch round: 5.7x28mm?
Zat would be a little weak on ze follow up energy, non?
I thought 5.7 was Belgium.
And the Rory Award for “Most Gratuitous Use of the Word ‘Belgium’ in a Serious Screenplay” goes to…
NorincoJay!
Unless terrorists attack the gun range (not smart) or our cul-de-sac (even less smart), I don’t see me even having a rifle readily available. So penetration of a vehicle would have to depend on 9mm. I’ve shot my ammo through junk cars before. Anything can happen any time, but those rudimentary experiments worked out fine, so I’m confident enough in the equipment.
I got a whole bunch of SSA 64gr bonded soft point for about .55/rd back when they got bought by Nosler and everything was in clearance. My experience from hunting is that it is pretty nasty inside 100yds. I keep two 30rd mags joined by a mag link next to the HD rifle for if things ever go completely upside down in the middle of the night.
I have shot through vehicles and windshields with 9mm and .223. I have seen first hand how easily cars are defeated as cover. In fact I would go as far to say that cars are concealment. I had the opportunity to shoot a target that was meant to simulate a bad guy in the “urban prone” position using the wheel and axle of a SUV as cover. My .223 rounds went though the brake rotor and wheel to find their mark. The target was hit and covered in brake dust. Obviously the engine block would offer some protection, but that is it, based on my experience. Those were even .223 55 gr ball rounds out of a 10.5″ barrel. That being said I keep 62 gr Fusion MSR’s in a couple mags for enhanced barrier defeating capabilities. Bottom line is guns vs cars…guns win.
Im 99% sure this was a sponsored post, which is totally fine. Pretty sure google got more 62gn dpx searches today.
My Gawd! That is some pretty bad shooting! On the wrong side and spread all over the place. Looks like the driver was chasing down the cops and they were running away shooting over their shoulder.
Desert, not all officers can end an encouter at over 100 yards with a single shot like SGT. Adam Johnson did in Austin, TX . But then again SGT. Johnson is a Texas lawman.
So cut the gendarmes a little slack.
Would your tactics be different with a truck when shooting up from street level?
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