When the current ammo drought began, the gunblogosphere got its collective knickers in a twist re: Department of Homeland Security (DHS) ammo purchases. The General Accounting Office (GAO ) recently released a report which reveals that the DHS bought 84.4 million rounds for its 70k firearms-carrying employees (the most of any federal agency) in 2013. “From fiscal years 2008 to 2013, DHS purchased an average of 109 million rounds for training, qualification and operational needs, according to DHS data. DHS’s ammunition purchases of the 6-year period equates to an average of 1,200 rounds per firearm-carrying agent or officer per year.” Sounds about right to me, if not a little on the low side. You?
That’s 300 rounds per quarter… not great, but more than the average gun owner I’m sure.
I went through 450 rounds at the range today. Granted, that was a little on the high side. I generally do around 300 rounds every other weekend so a) it is very much on the low side for someone who is supposed to be trained and b) I probably shoot more than most people.
So they used 1200 rounds per year to practice and train? Isn’t that what people go through in a couple of months when they are plinking/training? No wonder they are more inaccurate than a 12 gauge barrel with a .22 chamber.
Sounds a tad low. Maybe that’s why those feds shoot themselves and others accidentally. lack of experience with their guns.
It’s low. I use 50 rounds a week for CCW practice (occasionally more – when I also do some rifle shooting for fun).
I hate to admit it, but 1200 rounds a year seems quite low to me. If you’re at the range a couple of times a week and use about 150 rounds per visit, then that’s 1200 rounds a month, multiply that times twelve and that’s 14400 rounds a year…
It’s more than what the Army and USMC get to train with.
More than the ARMY? You must be referring to Rep Jason Chaffetz’s verbal gaffe last spring. His numbers were off and his calculation assumed that every member of the army, National Guard and Army Reserve is Armed. No so! EVen if half (550,000) of the Army trains every year, their purchases of over a Billion rounds per year put the per-soldier usage at over 2,000.
More than the ARMY? You must be referring to Rep Jason Chaffetz’s verbal gaffe last spring. His numbers were off and his calculation assumed that every member of the army, National Guard and Army Reserve is Armed. No so! Even if half (550,000) of the Army trains every year, their peuchases of over a Billion rounds per year put the per-soldier usage at over 2,000.
I could not live on that amount.
That would barely last a weekend.
i want to be you.
You should probably clarify what Tom spends them on before expressing such desires. You never know, perhaps he’s holding off zombies or aliens!
damn that’s only 100 a month I’d call that way low. 100 a week should be the minimum, I think.
I’d be willing to bet that like most law enforcement these guys (70,000 of them) DO NOT go to the range once a week or even once a month.
The supposed average rounds per agent is a red herring – what is necessary is to know how many of those rounds purchased have actually been expended and under what circumstances. I do not recall seeing on the news over the last few years a lot of accounts of DHS agents being in fire-fights.
How many of those rounds are stockpiled in a warehouse somewhere and is this organization being groomed and equipped to become Obama’s “Brown Shirts?” That’s what we really need to know.
These guys carry guns because they are official agents of the government, not because they like to go out and shoot a lot.
100% agree. First, we got way too many DHS agents. Arguing over how many rounds per agent overlooks that we don’t need that fascist agency. Second, many are deskbound computer jockeys and don’t need a gun at all. This is crap.
Given that Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Coast Guard and the Secret Service all fall under DHS, it would be worth knowing how the ammunition for training/ use is allocated between them. DHS is an ungodly mess of an agency, but I think the roles of border protection and the people who do it are legitimate functions of government. How that function is executed is another matter entirely…
That’s been bothering me for years. DHS is accountable and responsive to absolutely nobody. They blow off Congress like they were some dinky state agency in a backwater. They hold the public in complete contempt. Defund them.
Defund? No. Dismantle, Disband, Declassify, and prosecute them when possible.
I’d be willing to bet your tinfoil hat is awesome.
I dunno about the Brown Shirts bit (we’re not that far gone yet), but otherwise this hits the nail on the head.
It’s not the ammunition, that’s worrisome, it’s the fact that DHS — an organization that doesn’t need to exist and does nothing better than infringe on freedom in the name of security — has 70,000 employees/agents to distribute supplies to.
it’s also worth considering that DHS includes many agencies we don’t think of as new, DHS-type agencies: INS, Customs, Coast Guard, Secret Service, FPS, FLETC, etc.
>> How many of those rounds are stockpiled in a warehouse somewhere and is this organization being groomed and equipped to become Obama’s “Brown Shirts?”
Obama will be gone in less than three years.
The questions I have are how often are they REQUIRED to train and how often do they train? (i.e. do they get in more practice then required?). I’m guessing they don’t go through 1200 rounds/year. (While not the DHS, see below article where agencies admit to once a year qualification) A previous neighbor of mine who was a local police officer and is now a State park ranger (still considered law enforcement and carries on the job in my state) said in both positions he was only required to re-qualify every OTHER year. Unfortunately I don’ think he goes out to the range much and when he does, it’s usually only once or twice a few weeks before his re-qualifying.
So, if my assumption that they don’t use 1200 rounds/person/year is correct, then where are those rounds?
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3738401-Police-firearms-training-How-often-should-you-be-shooting/
I have been in Federal Law Enforcement for over 20 years and I will tell you exactly how much training we do. We have mandatory firearms qualification 4 times a year. Between qualification and training drills I might shoot between 250 to 350 rounds per quarter, sometimes more. I am required to qualify with my Sig 229 and backup weapon as well as a shotgun and M4. I can sign for 100 rounds per quarter for practice if I want to shoot on my own. In addition to our firearms quals we also do defense tactics training such as OC spray and steel baton use and other law enforcement type training. Chicago PD goes to the range one time per year, if that, as a comparison.
DHS is just an umbrella organization made up of different agencies. I am not aware of any plans to convert my position to “FEMA death camp guard” anytime soon. I know some FEMA guys that work in my building and the thought of it is laughable.
I go through at least 50-100 rounds in every weekly shooting session, so 100 rounds per month doesn’t sound like a lot. When I go to the Tucson Rifle Club range every other Thursday, I see the Border Patrol practicing, and I’ve heard several complaining that lately they’re not getting as much practice ammo as they were a year ago.
I shoot way more than that per year just in 38 special for CC practice…
Consider that a typical gun carrying member of the Navy gets about 200 rods per year. so that’s quite a bit.
Does that include Marines and Seamen? The average of the two would make sense.
Infantry might get a good deal more than 200/year… but I was in Arty and 200/year sounds pretty close to my expenditures.
My experience pertains to sailors tasked with force protection. Not sure about marines. We shoot 100 rounds to qual, then another 100 rounds to sustain 6 months later.
Am I the only one used to quality shooting, not quantity shooting? Per week I shoot 25-50 rounds. Maybe thats because I am a student without a consistent job? I know at least to count my shots.
I would be happy with the opportunity to fire 50-100 rounds per week, if I could find reasonably priced ammo, however this also requires the trip to and from the range, paying for range time, ear protection, targets, cleaning supplies, etc.
For many of us the cost of actually visiting a range can be prohibitive and access to unsupervised wooded or quarry areas is not available. Now if the government was willing to give me the ammo and free access to a nice range, that would be different, but I wonder at what else this would cost me?
(Sorry, Tommy, I started banging the keyboard I a rush and didn’t see that you asked the same question immediately below.)
Agreed. 25rd bi-weekly.
Week 1 – 9mm
Week 3 – 22lr
Week 5 – 9mm
Week 7 – 22lr
(20ga gets a bit of fun time too, but I don’t consistently practice with it.)
In graduate school, and student teaching, I made less than $4,000 in 2013. A box of blazer brass was 5% of my monthly budget.
It depends on the range. On an indoor range, I tend to spend more ammo shooting faster, usually going to about 100-150 rounds of various calibers on average (but I did dump 8 mags of .223 downrange as fast as I could once, just for giggles; yes, that was before Newtown). On an outdoor range, I tend to go slow and take careful aimed shots, and then of course it takes some time to figure out where you’ve hit when the target is 200 yards downrange…
The question I would like answered is how many rounds does DHS actually use per year. And who uses them. That they really run dry come each Dec 31 strains credulity. I would eat my hat if it turns out to be so straight forward in the Fed bureauracy. Bet there are stockpiles in places and clerical horsetrading between organizations. Or even worse this plays a role in some black project like fast and furious.
No wonder they are such bad shoots.
1200 rounds per agent sounds excessive. Even the NYPD could take out an agent with no more than 17 rounds in good light.
Heh!
17 rounds? Only if that NYPD officer’s intended target was someone else.
And if it’s the LAPD, they never fire less than 60…
Does the 70 k ” employees” include the Coast Guard (who do NOT belong in DHS, btw)?
They usually figure in the coast guard when they do the math to get rounds per person. But the last set of data I saw had the coast guard receiving a significantly smaller amount than any other agency. They’re just used to pad the average….
the last org chart I saw actually had the coast guard under DHS, as of the 2002 or so re-org that created the DHS. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the bureaucrats stiffing them on ammo, though, what with their continuing close ties to the DoD and their political unreliability.
You’d be surprised at what kind of stuff is in the DHS these days. Yes, it does include the Coast Guard. Here’s the full list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Security#Consolidated_agencies
I know the Coast Guard falls under DHS (makes just marginally more sense than them reporting to the treasury department). What I was getting at is that the rounds per person number does include Coast Guard personnel in order to lower the average round per person number and make it not look so scary. But when you look at raw numbers per agency it seems the Coast Guard gets a disproportionally small amount of total rounds.
We may not be having this discussion at all if the Coast Guard received the bulk of the ammunition, given that they actually undertake “offensive” missions.
FBI SAs shoot a minimum of 500 a quarter, so 2,000/year.
The number of rounds doesn’t show they buy too much ammo. It shows they employ too many shooters.
^^^This^^^ was my reaction, too.
Boom! there it is. Beat me to the punch. This ^^ exactly.
And who is paying for it all? You and me both.
And they buy hollow points to boot. Why not? It’s not as if it’s their money they are spending.
Yeah, right? It’s a totally bad idea to practice with the ammo you carry, just plain fucking stupid.
Many local police departments WISH they could spend that kind of money of practice ammo.
And many local citizens are glad they don’t.
Would someone PLEASE think of the puppies?
How is it that can they take out one dog with one shot, then blast a full mag at a BG and hit nine bystanders?
The BG can shoot back.
I think the bigger question is why does DHS need 70,000 armed officers?
What about the 1.6B rounds?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/
Yup the stories don’t seem to add up. Look around and you’ll see DHS says they only use 15M rounds per year in training. But the government would never lie to us, would they? LOL
This is exactly my thought. 84 million is not what we have been talking about for the past couple years. 1.6 BILLION is. And there also seem to be large purchases by other agencies like the IRS and USPS. Straw man purchases? Yes, they employ shooters, but the numbers start adding up and you have either too many shooters reported or too many bullets.
Then suddenly, its 84 million? It feels like a shell game.
The only thing I really know is that I go to the store and can’t even find 22lr, much less .308 or .357 Mag. And there’s a lot of dusty, empty space on the ammo shelves.
The thing about the 1.6 billion is (1) it was for five years, not just one, and (2) the way procurement works, the department asks for bids to supply “up to” a specified amount; it does not obligate the agency or department to purchase that amount, but it does require the vendor to provide that much if asked. So it is basically a means of reserving a supply without actually buying it until it is needed.
Understood.
So if I am a supplier, that kind of contract tells me that I need to start stockpiling enough ammo so that I can meet the demand, per the specifications of the contract. If I cannot, then I lose the contract.
Therefore, I retool the entire operation to only produce the caliber and grain ammo specified in the contract, and only release enough ammunition to maintain operations until my big buyer needs the 1.6 Billion rounds that I am actively stockpiling… enough to wage a hot war for 20 years, not 5.
This works our well for the buyer (DHS) because they have ammo on tap at a moments notice, they pay a deep discount, and they don’t have to pay for storage.
It works out well for anti’s in politics, too, because it severely restricts the ammo supply to the general public.
SO, in my mind, I don’t see the problem you are seeing. Help me out here.
If this is correct then the agencies have in fact warehoused billions of rounds of ammo but do not have to account for it because the actual rounds are being warehoused by the manufacturers, and kept out of commerce, against the day the agencies demand delivery.
This sounds like a slick way to get around the government procurement process where they will mess with your ammo budget next year if you don’t use all you requested last year. They get to keep 1.however many billion rounds on immediate availability without having to show them on any inventory.
So is the number from this article part of the 1.6 billion?
OK, here’s the way NTE contracts work. I contract for say a lot of not more than 100,000 rounds over a five year period (base year + four option years). I could be funded to buy 29, 000 rounds n the first year. If I like the product and I had the money, I could buy 20,000 rounds in years two through four, and 11,000 in year five. That’s the way it usually works. I can budget for however many rounds each year, and if the money comes in all is good and I buy the budgeted amount. Mix and match the 100,000 rounds or some smaller quantity spread out over the five years like an installment payment.
All I’ve agreed to is the price per round – that’s a hard number. The rest can (and probably will) vary according to my needs that year and what I foresee for the next.
The “if I had the money” part is key here – no budgeted money, no buying that year.
And if I don’t like the product, I walk away from the contract in year two or any other year after the base year and that’s the end of it.
If I hate the contractor or I want to screw the public over and I have the budget to do it, I order nothing in years one through four and wait until the last quarter of year five to order all 1000,000 rounds, thereby locking the contractor into becoming a “dedicated manufacturer” for my order and my order only. The rest of that manufacturer’s market just has to wait it out.
When I was a National Park Service (ret) Ranger we fired around 2,000 rounds per year to include 3 sessions of day and night qualification, tactical /practical decision shooting courses, and practice. That doesn’t include simunition training. Not all National Parks are the same and some are only willing to meet the minimum twice yearly qualifications. But, I worked for a Chief Ranger that expected us to be proficient in all our skills: law enforcement, EMS, search and rescue, and firefighting. I know things have changed considerably since I retired. Not sure what policies are in place today. And yes, we trained with the ammunition we carried.
Park Service Rangers are doing simunitions training? That sounds like a very practical use of tax money.
As I recall we tried to do simunition training about twice a year. Wasn’t very expensive as a whole. The weapons were just converted service duty handguns and you only fire maybe 4-6 rounds per scenario–maybe no shots if you handled the situation well. Excellent training for dealing with use of force situations.
If you check the stats, you will find that NPS Rangers get shot and shot at more than even US Marshals and FBI. You are dealing with everything from illegal marijuana cultivation to domestic disputes often by yourself in very remote locations. Amazing the number of couples that hate each other at home who think that going camping in the rain will mend their marriage. You deal with everything from poachers to lots of traffic stops and lots of drunks. As cops know, traffic stops and domestic disputes are about the most dangerous things you can stick your nose in. That’s the reason for regular qualifications and training. That takes ammo–both live and simunition. Simunitions provide the most realistic training for the dollar you can find. And, that “sting” is a good reminder of what happens when you screw up. Cheaper than funeral expenses.
And no, Park Rangers aren’t high priced government functionaries. Most have college degrees, many are vets. Starting grade is GS-7 and full performance is GS-9. Not much money for someone many of which can also fight both wildland and structural fire, rig ropes and perform high angle rescue, and start an IV at 2:00 am in freezing rain while hanging off a rope by the light of a headlamp on someone who just managed to fall off a mountain. Yea, there are a few badge heavy robo wonders, but they are few and far between.
Do ALL DHS agents carry? I really don’t know. Someone give me some numbers please. Oops. I just re read the original post where it states the number that carry.
Only 1200…??? They’re way under supplied…most, if not all, of US, have more than 1200 rounds per gun, and multiple guns at that…if there going to “bring it” they’d better pool their ammunition…
they only buy hollow point defensive ammo, does that change the story?
Nope, not in the least…I couldn’t careless what they buy, it still isn’t enough…they’d better put on their big boy underwear if the want to mess with the American people…
70k. Pretty good sized private army wouldn’t you say. Why does the DHS need 70,000 armed agents?
Definitely not to enforce the laws, protect the borders and monitor immigration. That would be outrageous.
Because of big government conservatives willing to sacrifice their freedoms. Also a Republican was in office when 9/11 happened and DHS formed so it was okay then.
Yep, it was okay then but not now. Makes me wonder why.
DHS encompasses a lot now. USSS, ICE, ATF and many others of others including it’s own investigators. 70,000 is spread out over our entire country and some overseas posts. So while it seems like a big number, it isn’t. I am not advocating for more mind you, just pointing out that it’s not as much as you think it is.
Exactly. Add in the Coast Guard to the other alphabet agencies and 70,000 is really not that many considering the size of our country and the extent of our borders. If our neighbors were not two friendly countries and two oceans, that number would probably be much higher. To me, the real question is that if you figure those 70,000 armed agents are the real “doers” in the DHS, what are the other 100,000+ feds and 200,000 contractors doing?
I haven’t been issued training ammo for about six months. The supplier (limited by contract, I think) is now 18 months behind, and we may or may not have enough ammo for qualifications coming up in a few months. Before the panic, it was 100rds per month.
I’ve been supplying reloads out of pocket for people who bother to go to the range with me.
It pains me to say this, but our department shoots and trains with about 1,200 rounds / year per officer. I shoot more on my own, ’cause I like guns.
Ok, there is a whole lot with the ammo buy I don’t like, but the fact that they’re buying hollow points doesn’t bother me. Isn’t it best practice to train with the ammo you carry?
If you have infinity billion dollars, I suppose. Otherwise, train with cheap ball ammo loaded to about the same level of recoil, and qualify with the hollow point to make sure it cycles properly.
I agree with this. As long as the duty ammo cycles, practice should be with cheap bullets in a cartridge loaded to the same performance.
This IS NOT a defense of the massive ammo buy, but I have a case of hollow points that cost around the same as ball ammo (pre-drought prices, no idea what it would be now….).
Well, I believe some circles would call 1200 rounds an “arsenal.”
Well, there’s an easy solution to increase the competence of the DHS agents carrying guns and to get them more ammo with which to practice:
Fire half of them.
Here I thought we should completely eliminate the DHS and the ATF. I don’t think the EPA needs police, either. Since the NSA spies on us we should can them, too. We have way too many federal 5-0’s.
Don’t forget that they include cowboy agencies like CBP in the total. DHS has their own Police as well as the armed agents and police from all the “cats and dogs” agencies that nobody wanted that they were stuck with when they were stood up.
A little on the low side, at least if they want to [get and then] keep in shape.
That’s an average warm weather month’s worth of shooting for me.
And yet, I’m underqualified to use a firearm in defense of my own life in the minds of the hoplophobes.
Never is about the guns, it’s about people they don’t like…
Most federal agencies carry 9 millimeter parabellum or .40 Smith & Wesson side arms and usually have carbines in .223/5.56. On top of that, they typically have a contract with one or two companies, Federal Ammunition being a popular one. Why then, is there such a shortage of many popular rifle cartridges, and especially .22 long rifle? .22 long rifle used to be had for fifteen to twenty dollars for a box of around five hundred rounds. Now days, if you’re lucky enough to find it, the prices have tripled and even quadrupled in most cases. Do any federal agencies carry or practice with .22? No, it doesn’t pack enough punch to be considered a legitimate self defense round, and you don’t practice with a round that you don’t carry. Doing so would get the agents use to the low recoil and possibly different weapons systems if they did not have conversion kits.
Since I joined the United States Marine Corps in 2007, I have typically gone to the rifle range once a year and pistol range once a year, like most Marines, with a few exceptions related to deployments and special training. I’m not including crew served weapon ranges, because most federal agencies have very few people on special teams who train with anything outside of carbines and pistols. A typical range week consists of shooting approximately 1000 rounds. My point is that while 1200 rounds per year per agent is somewhat low, they probably do not shoot on a range monthly or even quarterly, and they do not shoot millions of rounds of .270 Winchester, 20 gauge, .45 ACP or .22 long rifle.
9 millimeter and .40 Smith & Wesson ammunition is still relatively easy to come by, considering it is the same stuff the federal government is buying and using. So where is all of the other ammo?
All production capacity is making ammo for the gubmint, and that leaves some for those of us what use the same stuff…?
Seriously, is is a connundrum. Even the 7.62xYY is up.
There’s a shortage of .22 ammo because ammo makers are making cartridges with higher profit margins instead of making .22s.
No manufacturer has unlimited capacity and unlimited employees. They pick and choose which calibers they run. Right now, they’re not picking .22s. You wouldn’t either if you could make five times as much or more by making other calibers.
It’s like this — GM wouldn’t be making many Chevys if they could sell every Cadillac it could make in every plant. They’d build more Caddys and fewer Chevys.
There are a few companies that specialize mainly on .22 ammo and that ammo is hard to find as well. I think the shortage comes mostly from a component availability issue – mainly lead and brass – rather than production issues.
I still have a few bricks of .22LR in my reserves, from the late ’90’s/early 2000’s, marked $7.95. That’s 1.59 cents/round. My, how times have changed. I recently bought 2, 375 count “bricks” of loose pack CCI Mini-Mags for $39.95, 10.65 cents/round. That’s 6.7 times more expensive. ‘Tis a bummer. But for me to keep a certain level of “minimum reserves”, it might be necessary to pay the piper if you want to call the tune from time to time. I resent that, but the markets are what they are and I have to accept that Fortunately I have the financial latitude to indulge the gouging, as much as it pisses me off.
In Massachusetts, one is allowed to have on hand in their domicile 10000 rounds of centerfire, 10000 rounds of rimfire and 5000 rounds of shotgun. Why these particular quantities remains a mystery. If you want to keep more you need to contact to local fire chief or the state fire marshal, They will most likely issue you a permit/variance without a lot of drama. Or you can just do as you please and keep your pie hole shut. Totally your call. What’s your personal risk/benefit analysis?
Isn’t the Coast Guard part of DHS too?
I wouldn’t be panicking about the Coast Guard having ammo to practice and secure our shores with.
If I remember correctly, Coast Guard is part of the Treasury Department. In wartime they revert to DoD.
They go handed over from Treasury to DHS in the massive shuffle.
Sucks for them. Poor agency…
Yes, the Coast Guard is a part of DHS. But if you take a look at the ammo purchase breakdown by agency, they get fewer total rounds than any other agency in DHS. Which IS kind of scary, given that the Coast Guard is the only DHS agency that has an offensive role.
If the average is 109 million per year for 70,000 firearm carriers, that is not 1200 per agent per year. That’s about 1550. Or there are more than 70,000 agents carrying firearms.
The most recent purchase of 84 million for those 70,000 is 1200 per agent.
When this whole thing made the headlines last year I remember reading that DHS built special practice ranges where they started practicing interagency drills with other law enforcement, and DHS provided the ammo, DHS is a completely superfluous agency. We got along just fine without it for over 200 years. Might as well call it what it is DNP – Department of National Police.
Send some to my old department!
They would allot us all of 3 mags worth of ammo per Quarterly Qualifying.
33 rounds x 4 = 132
That’s what they gave us to shoot. Blue Book and the Range Masters frequently brought up that it was against policy to use our own ammo and train with our department issued weapons on our own time.
SWAT got the lion’s share of the ammo. Patrol lived off of scraps. A succession of Independent Auditors kept on telling the City to cough up more money for training ammo, but they didn’t want to listen.
1,200 rounds should be the norm.
That isn’t a lot of ammo at all.
In the army we had days where a single guy would burn through 800 or 900 rounds on the range. That wasn’t the average but it happened. Of course multiply that by 35 for the total round count on that day. I don’t think we ever bothered to go through less than a standard combat load worth of ammo on any range trip.
Even these days the wife and I go through 100 rounds each a week just in 9mm, that isn’t counting the rifles we may take out with us.
1200 rounds per employee…no biggie.
Don’t forget that the Obama WH has a Dept. of Propaganda (Thanks to Congress)
They all have. It is not just an Obama thing. It is a Government thing. Bush allowed 9-11 to happen so his buddies with defense contracts could get rich off of the death of good Americans. Also, while protecting the oil fields in the middle east.
The .gov et al has hundreds of millions, perhaps a few billion rounds on hand at any given time. The Unorganized Militia has countless Billions of rounds on hand at any given time. We’re good. We could always be better and we should strive to do so. If you’re a gun owner and you don’t have at least 10,000 rounds on hand to feed you’re collection, you really need to get with the program and up to speed. It’s you’re patriotic and self preservation duty to do so. BTW, do you have a few firearms to pass out to your most trusted neighbors? No? Get busy then.
I’m in the Air Force and I am aircrew, so I carry an M9 on a fairly regular basis. We get to shoot 90 rounds of 9mm (frangible) at the range every other year to keep current. I got an email a while back saying due to lack of funding and ammo, they were going to let people go non-current unless they were deploying soon.
I haven’t touched an M4/M16 since basic training 10 years ago.
Now I see why, all the ammo is going to all the other federal departments.
Now that’s funny. You really think the AF is hurting for money to buy ammo?!? I think you mean it’s a priority issue rather than a lack of money. Look around you on your Air Base, which ever one you’re at and tell me the AF is hurting for $$. Lol, I had to read your comment twice.
My department’s budget is a fraction of yours but somehow we always manage to find the money for requal and training ammo because it’s a priority it’s necessary for what we do. Maybe they should close “Little America” at Ramstein or the one or two of the 10 different BX/Commissary stores in the DC area to save some money and get you some ammo, yes?
I just looked at the date of the email, it was during the government shutdown in October, maybe that had something to do with it. It reads:
“ALCON,
Due to a shortage of ammo (and funds), we are only able to schedule folks for CATM if they are deploying. All others must be put on hold for now and if already scheduled, must be removed from their training dates. We, and SFS, apologize for this inconvenience.”
I have been deployed ever since that email came out, maybe we are back to normal, I haven’t received any updates. Still 90 rounds every other year is kind of sad compared to most other gov’t departments.
I just looked at my ID card, it doesn’t say “armed forces” it says “uniformed services” because we are usually disarmed and force sounds too aggressive.
It is because of all the money wasted on those new jet fighters when all you guys need us F-16s and A-10s.
I don’t know what the real numbers are, but I don’t believe anything this government reports on any controversial subject. Billions of dollars in spending is routinely hidden throughout the federal budget for perfectly legitimate national security purposes. I don’t put it past this government, regardless of administration, to utilize that sometimes-necessary bit of budgetary subterfuge for their own partisan purposes.
Does 1,200 rounds per agent sound low? Yes, yes it does. It sounds intentionally, relaxation-inducing, move-along-nothing-to-see-here, suspiciously low.
100 rounds a month is low for me.
And who here believes any of their numbers or stats?
I’m more curious of what brand of ammo they bought for their agents. Like Gold-Dots. Federal HST or w/e, does anyone know what brand they bought?
TSA employees fall under DHS and they are NOT armed. So try to figure out how many of those employees are in that number and subtract that from the 70K number. In our local, regional airport, I bet there are 50 of them so you can imagine how many there are in a large international airport. If someone can find that info, then the math needs to be recalculated. I believe that number per “agent” will go up exponentially.
It’s low. I don’t get out every month but we try for twice a month, easily 300-350 per month. Minimum of 3,000 per year. I remember a State Trooper in NY who told me their minimum qualification per year was 25.
Most agencies don’t practice enough, it costs too much money. I think the FBI gives Leo’s credit for 18% correct hits. Others have said it’s more like 12%.
I understand what happens when you go from looking at a book in a bookstore to being in gunfire. Flee or fight, fear of getting hurt, fear of failing and letting those you love get hurt BUT even 18% is absolutely unacceptable.
They need to practice more and get involved in scenarios that are realistic. It won’t happen. A cop in Charlotte shot a guy at least 10 times (~17 shots). The circumstances leading up to the shooting were complex and from what I’ve read the cop panicked. The guy was in a car accident and acting irrational and charged the cop. Unfortunate but better training might have hel
The DHS don’t need too much accuracy when the target is only 1 foot from the muzzle.
I never worked for DHS,but when I was with INS for over 20 years we had to qualify on each handgun we carried four times a year -I was authorized to carry two different handguns for a good portion of my career-the course was 50 rds-that was 400 rds/year and we got 50 rds/month of practice ammo per firearm,so that was 1,200 rds/year right there.1,600 rds total.Nowadays I don’t think agents can carry optional privately owned guns so I don’t see why they need 1,200 rds/year unless the qualification course is longer or more frequent.
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