In an ideal world, police de-escalate situations. They use their authority and firepower to prevent and stop violence, not create it. Which is why the militarization of America’s police is so dangerous to life and liberty. The arrival of a camo-clad SWAT team in a Lenco Bearcat at the scene of a domestic disturbance, for example, is not calculated to calm nerves and let cooler heads prevail. It’s designed to overwhelm and intimidate the “perpetrator” and “suspect.” You know: shock and awe. So what happens when the American citizen in question says “screw this I’m staying in my house”? I think you know where this is going, even if the Virginia SWAT team didn’t. Or did they? Check this out from policestateusa.com . . .
The situation began on August 29th around 2:40 p.m. when John Geer — a 46-year-old kitchen designer and installer — was told by his girlfriend that she had decided to leave him. The couple had two daughters together, ages 13 and 17. Emotionally distraught over the breakup, Geer exacerbated the situation by throwing her belongings onto the lawn of their townhouse.
This led to her calling the police. She informed the dispatcher that he owned a firearm. A SWAT team was sent to the quiet cul-du-sac.
Geer’s home was surrounded by armored vehicles and uniformed personnel. A police sniper was photographed lying prone in a neighbor’s yard aiming toward Geer’s residence. Men in helmets and military fatigues cordoned off the neighborhood. Police began making their demands. An armored truck a topside gun turret parked in his yard and prepared for a strike command. As time went on, helicopters whirred overhead and K-9 units were seen by neighbors.
“We’re just here to help you — come out with your hands up,” recounted neighbor Edith Eshleman, of the police negotiations.
What was it Ronald “Let’s Make the ATF a Federal Agency” Reagan said about the scariest words in the English language? “We’re from the government and we’re here to drive a tank through your front door and cap you ass.” Or something like that.
Around 4:30 p.m., with Geer sill “barricaded” inside his home, police used their $250,000 armored Lenco Bearcat to drive a long battering ram through the front door. SWAT team members made entry and ultimately found Geer deceased in his home.
Don Geer — the victim’s father — watched the scene unfold from the front lawn of the townhouse where officers positioned themselves with their guns trained on his son. He confirmed that his son’s hands remained empty and resting on top of a screen door throughout the confrontation with police. When John lowered his hands about six inches, according to Don Geer, one of the officers fired a shot and hit John, causing him to retreat.
Police did not immediately say whether John Geer was armed or why the officer decided to open fire, nor would they discuss the details of the conversation between the officers and Geer before the shooting. Geer’s father says that he was too far away to hear the conversation, but claims that a detective assigned to investigate the case told him that his son that his son was not holding a gun at the time of the shooting and that he did not have one on his person.
Aside from schadenfreude this incident has Newtonian (not Newtownian) implications. For every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. Every time the police came down on the populace like the hammer of God members of the populace think the police represent the forces of fascism—and not for no reason. I believe the term currently in vogue is “radicalization.”
Catch the irony? Up-armored in the name of countering terrorism, militarized police may be creating/encouraging proto-terrorists. If these disaffected Americans act, the police come down even harder, which creates more call for more militarization, which limits liberty and puts us all at risk.
In short, we need to defund these police militarization programs pronto. And incidents like this need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And the law changed to create genuine accountability. Good luck with that. [h/t Gunracer1958]
Isn’t this EXACTLY what Virginia voters approved just earlier this week?
Not all Virginia voters approved it.
Right because the “conservatives” would have rolled back the power of the cops. Unless you wrote in a vote for Elmer Fudd, your vote is part of the problem.
Exactly. Republicans drive the police state just as much, if not more so, than Democrats.
There was a third choice i believe.
Then all of those should of voted. Stop making excuses.
Your vote: a kick in the ass of the Police State! Also a pat on the back of the Police State! AT THE SAME TIME!!!
The fascist won by a quite slim margin.
Unless there is definitive evidence of the man reaching for a gun, then this is a much better incident to get pissed about, opposed to the ISU shooting. The latter was justified, this definitely appears to be a sever case of itchy trigger finger and over(kill) response.
It’s sad to see.
This looks like a mini Ruby Ridge with even less credibility.
I find it interesting that if you try to employ a private citizen to kill someone for you, you go to jail, but if you can call the cops to do it, it gets done. And all it costs you is a front door and some yard work.
I really, REALLY wish that the New Orleans PD training video that NOPD made back in 1960 could be made required viewing for all law enforcement officers today. The video is now part of various public archives, and it’s on Youtube, of course. The video’s title says it all: “Booked for Safekeeping” (1960).
See those guys in the video? Now THOSE guys are heroes.
My oh my, how far we’ve come.
I really, REALLY wish that the New Orleans PD training video that NOPD made back in 1960 could be made required viewing for all law enforcement officers today. The video is now part of various public archives, and it’s on Youtube, of course. The video’s title says it all: “Booked for Safekeeping” (1960).
Look at those guys in the video. Now THOSE are heroes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUiMSwcIsO4
My oh my, how far we’ve come.
A ghillie suit that doesn’t even match the friggin environment. Low Speed, High Drag.
Nothing like a rag-mop on the front lawn. I think I am going to start feeding the fire ants in the future.
Great idea let nature doing the fighting for you. Maybe get a couple foxes and raccoons with rabies in cages under the house.
yes, fire ants and honey badgers! and a good sized paper wasp nest rigged for with a remote drop system. Flying things with stingers will clear a yard quicker than mustard gas.
Or a surfeit of skunk would do the trick.
A harmless little critter that instills instant fear in almost everyone.
WAIT! That’s a GHILLIE SUIT? I thought it was RAPUNZEL!!!
A Ghillie suit in the N VA suburbs needs to be green, obviously. The sniper needs to look like shrub, not a stand of dry reeds. Who paid for this item?
You. and me. well, it was a group effort really… I think they wasted our money tho….
It has always been a mystery to me why civilian police departments that patrol urban environments insist on camouflage for their SWAT teams. It serves no useful purpose other than to intimidate. Frankly, solid black or blue intimidate a bit more than camouflage. Being a retired military cop, I have definite opinions about civilian police wearing camouflage. First, if they enter a base or operate near a base, I could argue that a military cop has probable cause to apprehend or detain them. If I am not mistaken, impersonating a military member is still a federal crime, and if you tack on a weapons charge if they enter the base, it could be interesting. Second, if the US went to war, under the version of the Geneva Convention that most countries follow, they would likely be executed if captured on a battlefield wearing military style uniforms if they couldn’t prove they were legitimate military.
> It serves no useful purpose other than to intimidate.
I believe you just found your useful purpose.
Not only that but it looks to be a .50caliber rifle. What in the hell is a municipality going to need a heavy hitter like that for? Honestly if your district is so shot to shit that your officers “need” stuff like this, maybe you should be forced to callin the Nat’l Guard before being allowed to arm up your officers with stuff like this.
Can’t a land owner kick that stupid wannabe soldier off his property? I sure as hell would have tried at least! I might have been marking myself for the local po-po but I did ask the cops to take their speed-trp outta my daughters driveway before and they had to leave (second driveway that leads to the back of her rural property).
So they broke down the guy’s door with the ram on the front of their armored vehicle…I’m glad they’re starting to put those things to good use.
Back when I lived in the People’s Democratic Shithole of California (Santa Clara edition), I got to watch one in action. About 100 yds from my front door, various police agencies showed up in pursuit of some kind of wanted person… they drove their machine up to the residence, busted a hole in a front window, and lobbed a few flash-bangs (presumed, based on light and noise that I observed). They left a couple of hours later, sans wanted person.
Fun times in the PRK.
Just another case of cold blooded murder by the so called piece officers. A regular person does it and they go to prison. A “swat” officer does it and nothing real will happen. Probubly a slap on the wrist.
Militarized COS play. One of these days I hope some of these over reacting b.s. teams hook themselves a full blown Panzer Division with Luftwaffe support.
Oh, like NYC? ;P
let me get this straight, a platoon of camo dudes show up at a domestic disturbance because someone screamed “GUN!”… and we aren’t calling THEM the “terrorists”?
Well, the dude might have had a .88 magnum. Those things go straight through schools!
The sniper has a .50 cal. Because if there is one weapon that should be fired in a crowded subdivision it is one that will blow through standard home construction like wet kleenex. What did he think he was going to shoot that required him to uncase a 50 BMG chambered rifle?
I wondered much the same thing.
And what will happen the day a news crew is filming, and the American public gets to see first hand what a 50BMG round does to the human body? It actually might shock people into realizing what police militarization means.
Unfortunately, when that inevitably happens, I imagine it will immediately be followed by calls to ban .50 BMG (or whatever weapon the LEO uses) for civilian purchase. Not because that makes any sense, of course. But because Alinksy-ite Leftists know that afterwards, they immediately need to obfuscate, shift blame, and confuse the public as much as possible. There’s a not-so-subtle level of projection that comes from the hard Left.
Sadly, true.
Thats what they use the 30 second delay for…
Geez, I didn’t catch that. Why in the world would a civilian police department need a 50 cal.? Talk about excessive use of force if they end up using that thing.
No reason for a 50 cal in a domestic dispute, terrorist situation when needing to shoot thru a wall maybe.
Only thing i would use it for is if you possibly needed to take out a engine block or such.
Are the cops trying to convince average, normal Americans citizens that in the case of a confrontation with an officer, the citizen might as well blaze away because he’s going to get killed anyway?
If so, then all they have to do is to keep on doing what they’re doing. The police war on America isn’t making cops safer, it’s making them targets.
Why are they all in OD green? Oh thats right they are milit…. Hold on a pip.
Usually i give the cops the benefit of the doubt but this one doesn’t look good for them. She told the dispatcher he owned a gun. Maybe the dispatcher thought she meant he was holding the gun. Either way this one…I don’t know.
Owning a gun (pistol) is NOT a crime. Arguing with your self-estranged wife is not a crime, nor is helping her pack by throwing her belongings on the front lawn. Was there any allegation or proof that this man threatened her with the pistol she reported him owning? Or was the mere reporting of the argument and the weapon together sufficient to call out SWAT? If they did not have probable cause for a search warrant to be issued (nothing in the post mentions a warrant) then this man denying the police entrance to his home is not illegal. This kind of police over-reaction has GOT to stop. Based on this example any woman with a beef against her husband, boyfriend or ex can cause him no end of legal grief and expense, or have him legally shot, just by showing up, starting an argument, and then reporting to police that he owns weapons. How is that justice?
It isn’t. Its conditioning.
“Based on this example any woman with a beef against her husband, boyfriend or ex can cause him no end of legal grief and expense, or have him legally shot, just by showing up, starting an argument, and then reporting to police that he owns weapons.”
Note that actually owning weapons is irrelevant. Just the phrase “he owns weapons” is enough to get you executed by the terrorist organization referred to as “the police”.
Being a realist, I don’t see much point in discussing what will happen in this case. What bothers me is this, that we spend so much money on PD’s, on firearms research (at the state and especially national level), and yet we’ve obviously moved backward in tactics, to a pure firepower and speed approach…to domestic disturbance calls. What on earth is the rush? Is there a prize for settling a domestic dispute within two hours? Even if twenty LEO’s, not four, are billable to the call? Even if it means shooting the distraught man? Because his girlfriend’s clothing was tossed? The complaining girlfriend and the children were out of the house. There was no rush. There was no reason for the LEO at the door to force the situation. With an armored car outside, the containment of the house could safely be left to them. Standing behind a screen door isn’t “barricaded.” Ordering a person out of the house isn’t “negotiating.”
Why was one of the patrolmen standing so close to the screen door with his gun up and on Geer? There were no longer any kids in the house. So what if Geer stayed in the otherwise empty house? The LEO at the door actually had no function requiring him to remain close-in, in supposed harm’s way. He was, at that point, the active creator of his own risk. There was an armored car outside whose crew certainly could maintain containment.
It is called violence by proxy, when someone gets others, even the police to commit violence for them. Many LEOs are all too happy to get an excuse to do so. This is also a case of state sanctioned and assisted domestic violence against males. There are far too many cases of violent women getting cops to commit violence for them using false claims and getting off scott free. Because domestic violence against men is perfectly okay and fully endorsed by the government and society. Both libs and consv share the blame for this since both support this for different reasons. It is pretty clear the exgirlfriend told the cops about the gun to get her ex in deep trouble, maybe she even intended murder by proxy/cop of him.
Violence by proxy…. otherwise know as Democracy.
“maybe she even intended murder by proxy/cop of him.”
Doubt she intended that. it’s a real shame she can’t collect child support. Tragically, she’s going to have to get a real job and support herself and those kids. That usually isn’t part of the plan in these deals.
So THAT’S who was giving the cops all that benefit of the doubt… it was you, all along. Maybe they’ll send you something for Christmas.
We live in interesting times.
Ok, so we are judging with partial info from a biased source? Isn’t that what we yell about with the anti gun crowd?
Not saying it was a good or bad shooting, just like I reserved my judgement in zimmerman, there is more to the story than what we are hearing now.
I am not judging whether it is a justified shooting, but rather why they needed a tank and 700 cops in fatigues for a man, alone, who may or may not have a gun.
I think most of us are capable of revising our opinions in the light of any new evidence that comes along, so we’re all good. But thanks for looking out for everyone.
Comparing rendering an initial reaction and opinon to this story to the anti’s penchant for jumping to their FOREGONE conclusions and never revising their assertions in the face of ANY evidence, is disingenuous.
Now, now, there’s no need for that reasonable response here. Everyone here just wants to know if there was a dog involved so they can joke about that next…
No one finds it funny, Hannibal. What you perceive as humor is a human stress-coping mechanism. Something we humans do to be able to process things that are difficult to face as real. No one is actually amused.
Hannibal, we have video. We know that containment was maintainable by the armored car. The LEO in close with his gun up could back away, eliminating the danger to himself, without increasing danger to the community. For god’s sake, the shooter was backup up by a SWAT team, sniper, armored car. Why did he just stand there thinking “if the guy moves a hand, I’m gonna shoot”? Why? No reason why. As far is I can tell he shot because the man inside was going to close the door, making a shot impossible. No? Closing the door on a policeman is not justification to shoot. The shooter was only at risk (in his own mind) because he failed to back away when others at a distance could cover the door.
I was wondering when the police apologists would show up in this thread. You can always be counted on to excuse rape and murder by the thugs in blue.
Hey, don’t play the rape card here! They’re saving that one up for the next 20-year old woman!
New Mexico cops are using rape on guys now.
True story. Click here.
Is that really a .50 BMG rifle? Really? How far from his intended target could he possibly be in that setting? Maybe 30-50 yards max? Figuring the average muzzle energy for a .50 is somewhere around 10,000 ft pds, depending on the round used, then it’s very possible to go all .88 magnum and shoot right through the house. Not hard to imagine a round blasting right through the guy and say, out a window behind him with plenty of destructive power left. Theres just no damn good reason for that weapon to be deployed there. Whats next? Mortars?
Jim, his hold is probably 3 feet low at that range.
so we are judging with partial info from a biased source?
Two weeks after the shooting, the Washington Post and NBC reported, and the detective on the scene admitted, that John Geer was unarmed when the cops blew him away. And the Police Chief isn’t saying sh1t, falling back on the “ongoing criminal investigation” line of crap.
Satisfied with these sources, or can I bring you a few boots to lick?
I’m a cop and it looks dirty shoot and respons to me. SWAT needs to return to multiple armed bank robbers and hostage situations with multiple suspects. I don’t see any justified reason for SWAT and their armor, nor for the shooting itself. Further, every indication points to the over usage of SWAT, which might get real pretty damn quick when it happens in your neighborhood.
Agreed, this looks liike a bad shoot. Have read several articles and nothing looks like it justifies even SWAT, mainly because there was no report of a crime. Not how we do business here, if there’s no crime, we end up leaving pretty quick.
Police used to do police work. Protecting, serving, that kind of thing.
There was not a police officer in that whole absurd clusterfu*k, just a bunch of cops. *spit*
What a bunch of pussies.
“My husband has got a gun and is acting crazy, I’m scared and so are my two daughters.”
“Well, gosh ma’am, that doesn’t sound like a job for us!”
You know Mayberry wasn’t real, right?
What are you talking about? Was that even in reference to my comment, or did you hit “reply” accidentally?
There’s a bit of a difference between how cops were trained in the days of mayberry and how they’re trained now. Big city cops have (almost) always been corrupt, but small town cops didn’t usually display the “us vs. them” mentality that seems so prevalent these days.
‘Us vs. them’ has been around for decades; you just hear of it more now because it has become much more evident with the militarization of law enforcement and the haste with which coppers now over respond, overreact, and use deadly force.
Police in turn have been conditioned to overreact by a perceived atmosphere of deadly violence where they are freely able to quickly up the ante in response to ANY threat without sufficient accountability and training to condition reasonable restraint.
These guys were clearly over hyped and acting out of their league despite all the costumes they wore.
Problem is, that’s a deadly trend which is becoming all too prevalent; and it’s a trend that is NOT supported by conservatives or Republicans; certainly not this one. It’s a trend supported by progressive statists, the social engineering Democrats, and the anti 2nd Amendment anti gun anti gun owner fanatics.
Think about it. Who is it that most wants to exercise dominion and control over everyone.
In what world was SWAT supposed to displace progress in developing intelligent life-preserving police methods? Did Springfield PD really think this was an active shooter situation? The serving of a warrant on a dangerous drug gang? I didn’t think so. But the SWAT team behind the shooter made him feel bolder, rather than feel he could back away because the situation was certainly contained.
The shooter at the screen door acted, in fact, exactly in the way we teach CCW people NOT to act. “Don’t act aggressively just because you have a gun. Instead, withdraw from danger when that is possible.” Certainly, in the Geer case, backing away was possible without increasing danger to the neighbors.
I don’t know what fantasy land some commentors live in but I lived in Mayberry, or close to it. In the days when cops had “sap” gloves, black jacks and routinely trained on the choke hold. When 1 of those cops showed up on scene you had a simple choice. Comply or get hurt. I never heard of or saw a cop that showed up and then just went away because the citizens locked himself in the house and wouldn’t come out.
I’ve said it before. When the cops show up at your house, comply. You can’t win the fight and they ain’t leaving just because you recite the constitution to them.
Live to call your lawyer. Anything else is just stupid.
They view these occasions as opportunities to practice, a training exercise for snipers to shoot live targets. To use all the military gear, equipment and vehicles that they have acquired . etc. America is finished, turn out the lights.
Because if you don’t use them regularly, they go stale. Like nuclear weapons. Think of all the negative press if we were to use a stale nuke against Syria!!!
It’s the natural progression of the on going war on the American people; the most recent big push was Prohibition and the growth of the welfare state; this was the first big push by criminals to control the alcohol trade and government to control everything else; it’s also the first big gun control law licensing full auto weapons; this also started what was to become the FBI.
Then we get the “great Society” in the sixties which led to medicaid and medicare, the beginning destruction of the black family with government aid and the “War on Drugs” and what do you get, a massive increase of crime as criminals fight over drug territory and the Cold War with Russia massive growth of government trying to control everyone, sounds kind of familiar.
But the war on civil rights, I mean the war on drugs continues , but now the war on us and our civil rights continues with the “war on terror”.
The Founding Fathers warned against extended wars that never end because they saw historically it led to a loss of personal freedoms and the growth of a police state.
Looks like those old dead white guys were right, again.
Well… that’s one way to permanently get rid of/get back at your boyfriend. Living alone is starting to sound ideal… and better for one’s health.
Domestic Violence = Terrorism
John Geer was not armed when he was killed.
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/09/john-geer-not-armed-after-all-according-to-investigators-93601.html
And NBC reports that “Police Chief Ed Roessler said the shooting is still an active criminal investigation so he can’t provide more information about what happened, or address neighborhood concerns just yet.”
In other words, the cover-up continues.
Just like that case in Iowa, but this one is decidedly more problematic and more difficult to excuse
more armor in the doors and walls is called for, perhaps an AT ditch in the front?
Further proof that we have far too many LEOs in this country.
Can anyone explain to me why police seem to NEVER stand down?
It seems like in situations like this, when they’ve deployed this many of their toys and men, they complely refuse to leave until someone is under arrest or dead – even when there is no evidence of a crime.
One day they are going to fuck with the wrong person and get mowed down from behind by a neighbor. They never cover their rears or flanks. I was starting to think during the Dorner incident, when he had so many sympathizers, that this was a real possibility
That was the A number one question I had…What was this man’s crime? Yes he was distraught because his girlfriend was leaving him, but were was the actual violence against another that would warrant a police intervention or arrest? If there was no crime, what authority did the police have for ordering him out of his own house? What authority did they have for entering his house without a warrant? Yeah yeah, I can hear the “exigent circumstances” ell ringing–but since there was no one else in the house, there were no exigent circumstances.
It seems to me, sadly, that we have reached the point where noncompliance with orders from police officers–whether those orders are lawful or not–is punished with extreme and immediate prejudice, from beatings to shootings. What happened to the days of the bullhorn and the phone call? All of the techniques for “talking down” a “subject”? It is truly disturbing, in a very Orwellian sense.
Yes, absolutely!
And I can already hear the anti’s shrill proclamation; if he didn’t have a gun, this never would’ve happened.
Problem is, when the police are conditioned to respond like they did here, it wouldn’t matter. The homeowner’s attitude, and the cops attitude, got him dead. But he was gunned down – unjustifiably.
As far as we know, he didn’t have a gun.
Agree completely. When an intervention even by two LEO’s is questionable under the 911 facts, call in SWAT?
It brings to mind the St. Louis PD shooting out the tire, years ago, of an out-of-control Augustus Busch IV, who was fleeing them at high speed. It worked. But when they found out who it was, they changed his tire for him and let him drive home.
If Geer had been a county politician or donor, or the neighborhood a very expensive one, would they have shot the man for moving his arm? Called talking at the screen door “barricading”? No.
We stand down all the time, at least here in WA. Just never makes the news. I’ve been on almost five years now and the only times I’ve forced entry are when we thought someone might be getting killed inside. For this? I actually had a similar call about three years ago.
Woman called about an argument with her husband, who lived in a camper in her driveway. Made some kind of vague threats and shut the door… and she said he had guns in the camper. When we got there, one guy talked to the woman while I stood next to him and watched the camper, about 20 feet away. The guy inside hated us. Started making vague threats at me, talking about his guns, about suicide by cop, about coming to find me off duty, and a bunch of other stuff I can’t remember. Said more than once how he was going to “force my hand.”
As he talked, he kept his hands out of view, below the window. Except, whenever he would say something threatening, he would raise his hands up and smirk at me. This went on for about fifteen minutes, during which I was convinced he was about to shoot me through the side of the camper, or whip his hands up into the window opening with a pistol and shoot me that way.
My gun never left the holster. We never approached the camper. Never called SWAT, we ran the call with only three guys. Why? Because there wasn’t any crime.
Of course, a few weeks later he broke some of her bones and got tackled trying to run into the woods, Convicted of felony assault, I think. Never made the news, either. I guess it would have if we had screwed up like this.
Waco II?
Just another murder-by-cop in the new Amerika. A SWAT respone for a domestic dispute? It is quite evident that the police view and treat American citizens as the enemy.
“We’re just here to help you — come out with your hands up,”
And prepare to meet your maker. Best not to be visible to the friendly SWAT team when talking to them.
SWAT teams here have looser rules of engagement than combat units in the sandbox.
I bet his family sues the heck out of the city and gets a big settlement. If the police don’t have a warrant he has every right to refuse them entry, and they can just sit outside until they obtain one. Their was no one in danger, let the guy sit inside by himself what is he going to do with all that firepower outside?
Also if they cops want to play military do it right, a .50BMG sniper rifle really? Someone watches to many movies and than goes and buys dumb toys. They need to upgrade to an RPG while they are at it, that would work about as well as a .50BMG in a subdivision!
Clearly no thought was given to how many innocent people they were going to grease if they let lose with all that firepower in a residential area. I guess they must have gotten their training from the NYPD! No one piles up bystanders like the NYPD!
Would the cops have gone in this loaded if it had been a male calling to say a female threw his clothes in the yard and “owned a gun”?
Looks like a target lying in the grass doesn’t it. Does anyone know where in Virginia this took place.
Seriously doubt that the trigger puller will be indicted/charged. It will be up to the family to seek retribution.
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