The District says citizens can’t build their own guns or possess firearms (they’ve built) without serial numbers.
The attorney general of the District on Wednesday filed suit against one of the largest makers of parts for “ghost guns,” which when assembled have no serial number and cannot be traced. The suit claims that the guns cannot be legally marketed or sold to D.C. residents and that more than 83 percent of the ghost guns recovered in the city were made by Polymer80, the Nevada-based defendant in the suit.
Ghost guns are becoming an increasing problem for D.C. police, as they can’t be tracked to an original manufacturer or sales point. The number of ghost guns recovered in the city has risen from 25 in 2018, to 116 last year, to 106 in the first five months of this year, according to Attorney General Karl A. Racine (D). Racine said in a news release that Polymer80 handguns have been linked to nine homicides in the District since 2017.
David Borges, the CEO and co-founder of Polymer80, did not respond to a request for comment on the suit.
Again, what part of “shall not be infringed” do you fail to understand???
And you want to be a state??? No way possible with the idiot mentality of the DC government.
Looking forward to a complete dismissal, with prejudice, of this BS case and DC ordered to pay the attorney fees of the Defendant!
Since when does any state or the federal government have the right or authority to regulate ownership of ANY product? Our governments get their authority from the people, but the people cannot give the government authority that the people themselves do not have. I’m curious what difference it makes where the gun comes from and why it is so important when deciding if a murder was committed – the only thing that matters is WHO DID IT!
“…the only thing that matters is WHO DID IT!”
That depends on two things: political agenda; contributive liability (more people to charge as a means of discouraging legal gun ownership [also political agenda]).
“Our governments get their authority from the people, but the people cannot give the government authority that the people themselves do not have.”
Regarding the latter half of the sentence, upon what do you base the assertion?
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
” “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” ”
I’m missing something here. The quote does not address the assertion that the people cannot grant rights the people don’t have. Under the founding theory, the people retain/own all rights. Some of the rights can be constrained by the central committee, but only insofar as the people intentionally, and specifically, delegate such rights (powers) to the central committee. “The people” cannot, simultaneously, hold all rights/powers, and not hold all rights/powers.
Not from the US, but from something much similar.
From ‘A Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen’
“The principle of all Government resides in the Nation itself. No group, no individual, can exercise any authority that does not expressly eminate from the People”
“The principle of all Government resides in the Nation itself. No group, no individual, can exercise any authority that does not expressly eminate from the People”
The statement, though not obscure, seems to fold in on itself: “the People” are individuals, each with sovereign authority over themselves. Thus, “the People” can have no authority except that expressly emanating from the individuals comprising “the People.”
The Federalists would have seen such a declaration you quote as also carrying the inverse proposition that government cannot extend itself into areas where “the People” (i.e. the sovereign individuals comprising the authority and power of “the People”) do not expressly permit. The Anti-Federalists would contend that unless declaration of that principle was clear, and published as a permanent admonition to government, government would eventually construe the lack of declared restraint to be permissive of government in areas not specifically constrained. Hence a BOR would be necessary, even to declaring that “the People” retain and exercise all powers not listed as permitted.
In the end, “the People” are the source of all power, and can grant all power, or a portion, to any entity they please. The absence of a declaration of what those powers are is not indicative that “the People” do not possess those powers. The original statement that “the People” cannot grant/delegate any power they do not possess is vacuous…the people possess all power, and thus cannot reach a position where they do not have power to assign/delegate/anoint.*
*This is all, or course, purely academic, as government in reality here is effectively the final arbiter of what power the people may exercise.
How can these monsters live with themselves?! DC was so peaceful befo- wait a minute……
This from the city that elected a crackhead mayor… twice.
they deserve the person they vote for!
Crackhead? I think you mean hooker banging crackhead.
A man of such strong moral fortitude, who chooses to honors his wife and family in such a manner, DESERVES to be elected to preside over the citizens of DC twice.
M Barry left such a proud legacy to be remembered by. Almost as notable as the Al Sharpton legacy. Typical leftard behavior.
Anyone ever heard of Sten guns?
Hush you I don’t want my local hardware stores shut down.
You’re far better off with a S…. *claps hand over mouth*
Almost killed my own supply chain :/
Don’t forget solvent traps, washers and thread adapter for those pesky oil filters.
How many times has a traced gun led the DC police to a criminal conviction?
I suspect they’re unhappy because home-assembled guns get around the de-facto registry of gunnowners that exist when residents have to get permission to own a gun.
DC has a straight-up, out-and-out registry. There is no “de facto” registry. There’s just… a registry.
That’s impossible.
A state (or district) can’t legislate what you can do with a gun when you are outside that state.
If you can drive outside the district and sell it to a VA gun store, then its not real registration. Because the district still has it on the books as yours, but you no longer own it.
A national/federal government can institute a real registry because you can’t sell a gun internationally.
For example, the NFA registry.
They may not be able to regulate what you do with it out if state, but they can regulate what you as a DC resident do when you return, like requiring you to report the sale of a registered firearm and submit a registration update form, which has a ‘cancel my registration’ option for that scenario.
I live near DC in Virginia. I have built several 80% AR builds. Personally, this is a cop-out (no pun intended) because DC has more problems then that. The protesters, riots, looting, murders are the problem. Nothing can be shipped to DC. Maryland is totally screwed up and when I carry I have to go unprotected (no reciprocity). The guns are being built in VA and moved to DC. This is not the manufacturers fault as the shipping address would not be DC. Mayor Bowser should stop defunding the police and protect their people. She is a piece of work. I don’t go to DC after dark.
Now they want to change the name of our NFL team from Redskins. Northern VA is so full of extreme liberals it makes me sick. Bowser allowed so much damage in DC she should get defunded.
What happen to the politicians taking your guns by force?
I have not heard anything after, the peaceful standoff.
Skins ownership has already told these non-fans to FO. It would be one thing if the entire (pick your favorite tribal) Nation protested but it’s mostly idiot white kids, who wouldn’t know which end of the football to hit with the bat, complaining.
I’m half a mile from the bridge to cross over to D.C.. I have a polymer 80 sitting right behind me in a box with everything except for a slide and slide components. I also have a few gun kits sitting behind me that I have been sorting and cataloging what each kit needs to build before they go back to storage an hour away. I almost feel like a free man! Almost. It’s disgusting that if I were to go a half mile from where I live that I would be stripped of my rights unless I jumped through a bunch of hoops and complied with multiple asinine laws in the seat of our federal government.
Unfortunately VA will probably be similar to D.C. here in a few more years (months?). The government at the state and federal level has abdicated their duties which are to preserve the rights of the people. The Democrats openly violate our rights and Republicans silently sit there and let it happen.
the boy is following his gal out there for a couple years of her “partnership.” doesn’t seem like it will further his firearm education much, but between md., d.c. and ol’ virginny he may be able to figure something out. tricky. work in progress.
You can bet California watching this one… Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that, with the Supreme Court turning a blind eye to continuous 2A infringements all over the country, that we as citizens and gun owners will have to do our own marching and protests to finally get this issue addressed? USE your vote this November, people! It’s important!
What do you mean? It is already illegal for us to build these without first applying for a serial no. By 2025, earlier if the new budget for the CaDOJ passes, gun PARTS, even those dangerous night sights for your Glock or any of the various springs for you AR-15 has to be purchased from a registered FFL. No more going to e-bay for cheap Chinese Magpul knockofs ( well, that part is good)
Yes it is in California. Not the most of the FREE states. I lived in CA and I only have one thing to say; we are damn glad the Rockies are between us.
That is incorrect, due to our roster law you can not build ( or get a ser. #) because your new hand gun won’t be on the roster, there for it is not a “safe hand gun”.
I thought that was only for a gun to be sold commercially.
Either way, working as intended to make exercising 2A a fraught pain in the ass.
Eric in Oregon is correct. You can build a gun as long as you serialize the receiver before you start the build, with a serial number provided by the State DOJ (and with a background check before issuance). It is roster exempt because, unless you are (illegally) in the business of manufacturing firearms, the Roster does not apply.
There is a bill pending that would require the same mini background check required for ammo purchases for the purchase of “precursor parts.,” with the transaction processed by a precursor parts dealer. It is not entirely clear what will fall within that category, but it does apply to barrels and receivers. the pending bill would go into effect in July 2024, but some asshole added the same language as a trailer to the budget (which avoids ALL of the committees) with an inception date of July 2022. In other words, the Democrats have found a “cute” way of passing gun control bills without committee hearings or floor debate. Ain’t that sweet?
Actually, to be precise, the bill states that anything that attaches directly to a gun’s frame will require routing through an FFL. So sights on a Glock’s slide won’t qualify.
The other bill to which you’re referring would move the effective date three years earlier, from 2025 to 2022. If that happens, everyone and their cousin here in CA will be snapping up spare barrels, trigger groups, slides, etc. just like we did for mags and ammo before their own “doors of availability” closed.
Are they cooking the books and calling the legit use of a DIY firearm murder? That’s what drama queen democrats do. You can be a “child” until 26 if the need to advance the cause arises.
Criminals will acquire guns no matter what including stealing them from the police.
If you want more and more never ending democRat Crap stay home and don’t vote.
Gotta love the magic of serial numbers. Slap one on and just like that safety is the order of the day. Like all those cars with VINs that never get into accidents or get used to mow down 70 people.
Well, now you might know where that truck came from assuming an unbroken lawful line of ownership so…….. that’s something, I guess. Might make the families of the dead happy?
Slap a PT belt on that bad boy for super safety.
They are training the little people that not having a serial number is somehow wrong. Freedom scares them…
What is interesting is how readily people have accepted government infringement of registration, taxation, and regulation for vehicles, but not guns. There is no difference! The state governments are violating the rights of the American citizen when it comes to forcing registration and regulation of their personal property – cars, boats, planes, etc. This includes requiring a Driver’s license, which need renewal (without any proof that you are still a safe driver) every few years. This fraud continues even though the Supreme Court ruled that an individual does NOT need a Driver’s license for personal travel because personal travel is a right and the government has no authority to regulate personal travel!
Sure they can. It’s called police work. Seems the police just want to sit in the office and let the computers do their job for them. News flash – worry less about the guns and more about the criminals yea.
What’s funny is that if they really wanted to go for it and chase the leads down the ATF could probably find less than half a dozen manufacturers to harass and arrest instead of harassing legit manufacturers like Stag.
If, and thats a big IF, they catch the murderer why is a gun trace all that important any way? Sure they could snag someone for a violation or something but that’s small potatoes compared to the real crimes. No matter how many process crimes around guns they pursue, or successfully convict on, they will never keep guns out of DC.
DC cares much more about traffic violations. hundreds of millions of dollars there. They shrug off everything else.
[“Sure they could snag someone for a violation or something but that’s small potatoes compared to the real crimes.”] Those “violations” are illegal laws to begin with. The government has no authority to tell me or any other American citizen, who they can sell personal property to. These laws are designed to make the seller the criminal but not the buyer/user!
“The government has no authority to tell me or any other American citizen, who they can sell personal property to.”
“Authority” comes in three flavors: Actual, apparent, presumed. As for government regulating what can/cannot/must be sold, the SC ruled long ago that you can be forced to sell your property on the open market if your product is considered part of the “market place”. Now, the SC cannot enforce that ruling, but the SC grants authority to others to enforce the decision, via regulation, lower court decisions, law suits.
All natural rights of people that are not constrained by specifically delegated powers to government are retained, although not listed, by the people. The people, being sovereign, retain the right to organize to regulate their conduct in whichever arena they choose. Such rights are manifest through elected representatives, acting as agents of “the people”. In classic theory, then, government never acts in contravention of the will of the people.
I didn’t realize how many people who break the law were such gun hobbyists in their free time. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to source their parts out. Or paying a bit of a premium over a factory gun just to get the parts they want. I would have just thought they would procure a stolen gun, or one from friends or family members instead of going through all the hassle of building one themselves. But, hey. I guess anything is possible in the minds of those in government.
Seems unlikely that any of the distributors are shipping Polymer 80 products (they aren’t guns) to DC. If the bad guy has his girlfriend receive the item and e turns it into a pistol frame either before or after he takes it to DC then the responsibility is his. Just like shooting someone with a gun, the trigger doesn’t pull the finger.
Lefties just can’t seem to apply logic, but there is nothing new about that.
This is simple, P80 just needs to say “we don’t ship into DC why don’t you catch the smugglers?”
Also how many of the guns recovered are ghost guns? If there are 100 ghost guns and 5,000 non ghost guns that seems to be window dressing not an actual issue.
What’s interesting is how do they establish that these guns are “ghost guns”? Any weapon can have the serial number removed and then becomes a “ghost gun”! So it is very likely that this is what these idiots are referring to, not 80% lowers being machined by low IQ criminals!
Also, there is no requirement that I know of for any manufacturer of 80% lowers to maintain or release information of shipping information because they are not regulated by the ATF, so how does DC know they are being shipped there?
From the article:
“… more than 83 percent of the ghost guns recovered in the city were made by Polymer80… ”
And:
“Ghost guns are becoming an increasing problem for D.C. police, as they can’t be tracked to an original manufacturer or sales point.”
So which is it? They can’t be traced to the original manufacturer or they are made by Polymer 80?
Journalism may in fact be dead.
It’s worse.. Loved this gem, from the article:
Manufacturers such as Polymer80 sell “gun assembly kits,” which often come with the lower 80 percent of the gun, and which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has ruled are not firearms when used as part of an AR-15 rifle.
So much fail….
Also, the article indicates that a whopping 9 homicides since 2017 have been linked to Polymer80 handguns.
DC has had 79 homicides THIS YEAR so far. Statistically, around 75% are with guns, 10% with knives. So, statistically, in 6 months, there have been approximately 8 homicides with knives – about the same as the number of homicides in 2.5 years with a so called “Ghost Gun”…. When there is a will, there is a way….
That can happen when the writer is clueless of the subject.
That jumped of the page at me. I did not have any data but intrinsically I knew it was a very small number.
Stolen guns can be traced to the initial point of sale, perhaps further, but they cannot be traced to the guy who stole it or the punk he sold it to on the street. This whole bit about tracing is entirely bogus. For some reason (yeah right) you cannot find any statistics as to how many traces result in the successful prosecution of a murderer or other shooter. It is just like the lie about how “80% of the guns traced by the ATF from guns seized in Mexico are from US sellers…” That is one of those “well duh” statements.
Whats the big obsession with traceability? By the time law enforcement gets their hands on a firearm, the crime has already been committed.
If someone murders someone else with an ax, do they care where the ax was purchased or who the manufacturer was?
2nd Amendment rights must not be infringed for the purposes government administrative convenience and/or statistical data collection.
They want to propagate fear. The idea is to make people afraid to circumvent the restrictions for fear of arrest/conviction/jail/etc to accomplish their goals. Fear of jail is the most basic tool they have. The people who follow laws and live crime free lives are fearful of consequences. Others not so much.
You know why. I’ll point it out, for the people who haven’t considered the matter. They desire unequivocally to know what, where, who, & why at every point in time. It is a push for de facto registration & traceability for one ultimate express purpose, confiscation being the carrier.
You can see this spanning many issues simultaneously, some of the more worrying developments elsewhere amongst issues in the mass collection of internet metadata, widespread use of facial recognition in guv surveillance camera’s, tag reader camera’s, retinal scanners, etc. Of even greater alarm is the push currently underway, and hold on to your seats kiddies, for real-time pheromone (scent) & touch DNA recognition. Point of fact, portable touch DNA scanners are already in use, and have been for years (laughs, not really THAT portable). That was the progenitor, & now, down-scaling and increasing speed to near instantaneous is the current focus.
Dystopian future of an Orwellian bent frightening enough yet?
What? Why? Overall, the removing of the last vestiges of power from We the People, & keeping it for themselves, that is the end game. The same old authoritarianism, totalitarianism, the tyranny our Forefathers warned us of. Right on our collective doorstep’s, and the vehicle is revving at the curbside.
I would stock up on several kits, just to have, you know, just in case. The government doesn’t need to know who owns what. Guns should be considered the same as the secret ballot. No to DC statehood, in fact the DC municipal government should be abolished.
A 80 % is a pice of material, be it plastic metal wood, whatever,only Leftards would try to bam materials that can be purchased at Home Depot or any hardware store.
To be honest it would be better for those who desire a gun to buy a manufactured one out of state. I’ve experienced and heard many stories of the unreliability of these BYO kits. They are not guns to bet your life on.
Mostly can’t buy them out of state. Handguns cannot legally be purchased outside your state of residence (which is a problem for me because I spend six months a year in each of two states). And out of state long gun purchases have to conform to the laws of your state of residence (which is fine for me, because both of my states have permissive gun laws).
Are they upset that home burglaries, home invasions and other theft known as the previous source of the weapons are no longer the main source? Or are they upset because they figured out their laws mean nothing to the lawless and they are a waste of time?
Polymer80 is not a firearms manufacturer. They don’t need a license to sell their products from the Fed’s. They don’t need a license in DC to sell anything unless they have a physical presence in DC. They also don’t ship to DC. So exactly how is this lawsuit going to move forward?
They will probably sue in Polymer80’s backyard. Standing might be a problem.
Undoubtedly they will sue in the DC federal court. Jurisdiction will be an issue IF the guns are not shipped to DC, but according to the suit, they are advertised as legal in DC and sold there.Standing will not be an issue if the parts are sold there. Several cities in California were suing the manufacturers of “repair kits” for AR mags that were successful. The difficult part for the city is that Polymer 80 does not sell unserialzed firearms, which are illegal in the city, it sells parts.
Technically they’re just a hunk of plastic or aluminum that could just as easily be turned into a planter and DC has no right to regulate the sale.
That said, Poly 80’s best bet is to say “Mea Culpa, I won’t do it again” and try to get DC to drop the suit. DC is going to get favorable decisions all the way to SCOTUS and SCOTUS will turn a blind eye as they did this year so that the lower court rulings stand. It’s really a done deal as far as DC is concerned.
That, of course, will enable other commie states to implement their own similar laws and threaten manufacturers with suits if they don’t “take a knee”.
There lawsuits are nothing but a distraction. Any good lawyer can have the case dismissed by establishing that the plaintiff cannot prove anything was shipped to DC. There is no law (legal or otherwise) that can require the manufacturer to divulge/release shipping information, especially personal information, like addresses, of customers; especially when an 80% lower isn’t even considered a “gun” part!
“There is no law (legal or otherwise) that can require the manufacturer to divulge/release shipping information, especially personal information, like addresses, of customers;”
Is there room in your mind for another person, because I would surely like to live there. However, reality bites, and bites hard; of course a business can be legally forced to divulge whatever information a court decides is pertinent to law enforcement. The actual power lies in the ruin a company would face if they do not comply with such a court order.
isn’t all this about federal laws anyway? the 80% frames are not firearms according to federal law. they are allowed to be completed/manufactured by a private individual, according to federal law. they are not required to have a serial number according to federal law, as sold as 80% kits, or after completion by the owner. if the owner wants a serial number on it, he can put one on himself! amazing! therefore if DC thinks these should have a serial number WHEN they are completed guns, isn’t that responsibility on the owner?
yes.
whereupon Polymer80 can tell DC to fuck off.
Even under federal guidelines they aren’t even considered gun parts!
No, D.C. will find a judge in Hawaii that thinks a polymer 80 is a full firearm and bend them over.
Thought about doing a ridicule comment, but the serial number thing is more complex than superficial.
Most people, including gun owners, have never been part of a government agency. Thus, the Byzantine rules are puzzling. Most “get” that governments love to create laws/regulatios for the purpose of demonstrating the value of the agency involved. What gets lost is the labrynith of companion, complementary and conflicting laws/regualtions that make those laws/regulations more entangling than the citizery thinks about.
What do serial numbers on guns/gun parts actually do? Well, for immediate crime solving, not much (TV notwithstanding). However….serial numbers can attach an array of laws/regulations to people/entities along the way. A lost or stolen gun can point police to an owner who violated stolen gun reporting requirements, safe storage requirments, creating a public nuisance. Now, if any of those laws/regulations are a felony, the gun owner becomes a prohibited person; mission accomplished.
With the individual dealt with, those guns that cannot be traced to an individual owner can be claimed to have been introduced from a locality with lax gun laws that allow prohibited persons to make straw purchases, and illealy run those guns into the fine state where the crime occurrec. This opens the way to also attack, if not charge, every person/entity along the chain for careless handling, management and sale of the gun found used in a crime. This profits the public shaming of guns and gun owner; mission accomplished. With sufficient public shaming and accompanying outrage, potential jurors are influenced to be harsh on gun owners, FFLs, distributors, manufacturers; mission accomplished.
The following quote allegedly comes from the U.S. Army Officer Guide (1894). It is applicable more widely than that:
“Enlisted men are unintelligent, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching.”
[following quote allegedly comes from the U.S. Army Officer Guide (1894). It is applicable more widely than that:
“Enlisted men are unintelligent, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching.”]
This really made me laugh. After serving 22 years in Special Forces and having to deal with many officers during that time, I would say that I only met a handful of officers that had at least two brain cells to rub together. The military has become an organization that relies on “higher education” rather than ability to function. Higher education is nothing more than an indoctrination tool and has little to do with intelligence. The military is run as a system that relies on orders trickling down from the top, no one makes their own decisions.
“The military is run as a system that relies on orders trickling down from the top, no one makes their own decisions.”
I remember a time when the military (in its entirety) was considered to be exclusively populated by people of low intelligence, as indicated by the dearth of leadership with advanced degrees. A big push was instigated to raise the level of respect for the military in political and media circles. Then the advanced degree became a requirement for promotion. Then the feather merchants made careers out of getting advanced degrees and extended military academic training. Operations types were then relegated to the lowest cadre, below the fancy boys in “programs and analyses”.
In one headquarters unit I served in, the operations types received zero promotion during the three years I was there. The CINC was a combat pilot, and never asked any questions about the disparity. By the time I retired, we were having to gently explain to the young enlisted how it was a benefit to their self-actualization to wear a complete uniform to work each day. We were not permitted to initiate any formal corrective action.
Interesting. So is polymer80 covered by the lawful commerce in firearms law ? Can things used to make a gun be covered under that if they are not firearms or firearms parts when sold ?
“Can things used to make a gun be covered under that if they are not firearms or firearms parts when sold ?”
Wonder how the actual items were determined to have been purchased in DC, at all?
“Attorney General Karl A. Racine (D). Racine said in a news release that Polymer80 handguns have been linked to nine homicides in the District since 2017.”?
“Homicide” is a “manner of death”, what is more important is how many of these firearms were used “justifiably” in “self-defense” and how many were used in murders, those are the important numbers.
lets have a nice counter lawsuit back. the government cannot stop us from getting a piece of plastic. we can order a complete kitchen nice set over the Tv. and the lead knofe can cut through everything , and if you act now………( yeah I know they will soon come for that)
Something that DC government should long since have heard, PISS OFF!
Sadly, that is a worthless statement. Telling any government to “PISS OFF” does NOTHING! When will we as a nation stand up and remove these tyrants by force. That is why the 2nd amendment was included in the Constitution, and the Constitution further tells us that it is our responsibility to do so. Instead we sit back and whine while governments continue to create, enact, and enforce illegal/unconstitutional laws.
The people who use them are criminals by trade it’s either going to be a stolen gun or straw or these things, the crime of passion, domestic blowups etc are the times maybe when that phonecall could point to an actual perp, maybe. I got the phonecall 9 years or so ago for a pt111 pro millennium that I sold to an old class mate. I told the cop who I sold it too and with a butthurt tone the officer hung up. Turns out he never called the buyer. What? Why?
Can you say that again in english?
LOL.
Come and take them.
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