I don’t know what the arrangement is between Oleg Volk and the Kel-Tec, but I find it highly a-musing. The ‘Net’s number one gun pornographer is all over the KSG, releasing dozens of snaps of the plastic fantastic 14-round shotty. Volk’s most recent photos feature a totally tricked-out 12 gauge in the hands of a young lady in a home defense situation, leaning out a door. Yoo-hoo! I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: handgun. Bullpup or not, a shotgun is a two-handed proposition in a situation where multi-tasking is the order of the day. The old saw—a handgun is for fighting your way to your long gun—is true enough. But once you get there, it’s best to assume a defensive position, get some cover and/or concealment, and let the bad guys come to you. Just sayin’ . . .

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18 COMMENTS

  2. I just don’t get it. Why complicate matters with 2 mag tubes? I thought, “cool”, at first hearing of a bullpup but assumed a simple straight,single, tube. Either way, I’m sure it’ll be quite a while before I see one on the shelf. I still haven’t seen the RFB.

    • I don’t know why someone can’t integrate that rotating extension tube into a shot gun. Even if it only added four extra shells it would be an even dozen.

    • The two mag tubes are a *simplification* compared to the traditional 7 round shotgun.

      Shotgun manipulations are delicate acts that wither under even minimal stress that folks rarely every practice to second nature. Much less second nature under full stress!

      To get the amount of firepower the KelTec offers, in comparison to the standard 7 mag tube, you would need to perform that delicate reload 7 times. With the KSG, it is one (somewhat inconvenient) switch away and the deed is done.

      As to why? I am thinking the two reasons:

      – Mechanical complexity.
      – Ban states. Right now, the KSG basically carries two independent magazines. Link them together automatically, and it now holds over 10 rounds.

      • What does this have to do with my idea of the integrated rotating mag extension? Or non-obtrusive drum mag for that matter? I can reload my 8 shot mossy quite fast and I am not really sure what you mean by ‘delicate acts’. For me it is second nature under stress. Anyone who has been hunting a couple of times with their favorite shotgun can tell you how easy it is to reload. I don’t know when they got complicated. Mine isn’t.

        As for the reload: I am asking if there was any way to integrate a drum mag or extension that rotates. This would bring up the shell count and drop the reloads. And with no switches. It would eliminate the need for this gun entirely.

  4. Pornographer? That’s a bit strong.

    Question: When a specialized police team goes into a house with the expectation of a firefight, are they using handguns as their primary weapons?

  6. Kel Tec stated at 2011 SHOT SHOW that the KSG would not be available until sometime in 2012. Give their track record over the past decade with new product introductions, I say 2014.

  8. RF,

    I’m not really sure I entirely understand your objection to long arms in a dynamic home defense scenario. Would love to hear a more in depth explanation… Maybe a dedicated post?

    Thanks,
    JSG

    • It’s pretty simple. A long gun requires two hands. In an [indoor] dynamic home defense scenario, chances are you’re going to need a hand free for any number of tasks: opening and closing doors, grabbing kids, pushing the wife, calling 911, etc. While it is possible to assign these jobs to a friendly (as we do in our family plan), as John Lennon said before he was shot, life is what happens when you’re making other plans. A handgun is a far more strategically flexible firearm than any long gun.

      It’s also much easier to retain a handgun than a long gun; a rifle or shotgun’s long barrel is relatively easy to grab or deflect. You can also aim a handgun more effectively in close quarters combat. Which, given the distances involved in most homes, is the very definition of a home defense scenario.

      As and when and if you’ve gathered your friendlies established a defensive position—preferably in a “safe room”—it’s time for the long gun. Nothing says F off or die at close quarters more decisively than a shotgun. An AR’s nice too. As are pistol-caliber rifles (easier for women and children to maneuver and shoot).

  9. Thanks for the clarification. Let me start with a quick acknowledgement, your plans are clearly well considered and likely effective, so I don’t intend anything I say as a criticism, just throwing out an alternative viewpoint.

    For full effectiveness, long arms do require two hands, in fact are more dependent on two hands than a handgun, yes. However, many long arms can be operated effectively one-handed with some practice. And such drills should be focused on returning the support hand to position as rapidly as possible to maximize effectiveness. In large part I’ll grant you this advantage without much dissent. There are numerous ways to utilize a long arm effectively doing all of the things you listed, but they all represent compromises to full utilization. That being said, I find a handgun to be a compromise from the start so there’s some give and take either way.

    I think saying a handgun is a far more strategically flexible firearm depends solely on strategy, and in some senses is allowing tools to dictate that strategy. There’s a reason professional armed organizations typically limit the handgun to a secondary role in combat strategies, it is not the optimum tool.

    In regards to retention, I disagree. Everything is training dependent, of course, but trying to disarm a properly trained individual with a long arm is not often a good idea. It hurts. Then you get shot. This comes down to a leverage question. With a long arm you have 4 points of solid contact with which to resist the opponents force, you are not dependent on the strength of your fingers for retention. You also have a “big stick” with which to distract and force back your opponent opening the engagement zone back up. With a handgun, if an opponent gets their hands on the firearm they can apply all of their strength to torque against your fingers and you are limited in applying your strength to resist. In regards to deflection…I could agree. IF you are adequately surprised by the attacker either system is easy to deflect and you are forced back on your retention and redeployment training. This is where the handgun has the edge, if you’ve successfully retained it, it is easier to draw a handgun in close to the body and deploy it successfully within grappling distance. With the long gun you’re required to beat the opponent back a minimal distance to redeploy effectively. However, since I think the four points of contact make it harder to deflect initially and easier to retain I think this one is closer than might be initially assumed.

    I don’t know why you say it’s easier to aim a handgun more effectively in close quarters, I’d have to see your reasoning in more detail to respond effectively. I’ll only say that those things which make long arms more accurate firearms at distance still apply in close quarters: longer sight radius, more stable “platform,” more points of consistent indexing, less reliance on fine motor function for aiming, etc. Where handguns might have an advantage in close quarters is clearance around obstacles, and this is firearm dependent.

    I think leaving your long arm deployment to established defense is losing your most powerful tool until you’ve surrendered the initiative. In the absence of an actual fortified safe room (even in the presence of the safe room, but the benefits of fortification may offset), a static defense constrains your options while giving the opponent the advantages of movement, envelopment, containment and more. Every strategy is defined by the specifics of the time and place, so I’m not ruling out the established defense. I just don’t want to limit my use of tools to a specified time that may be tactically or strategically unsound.

    So, why would I prefer a long arm (usually) over a handgun? Granting that tactics define tools, and strategy drives tactics (and logistics rule them all), various long arms give you advantages: More power, higher capacity, the ability to adjust round selection to the situation, less dependence on some fine motor skills…

    But I also think the properly deployed handgun can be devastating in home defense…

    • Thank you for taking the time to reply. I apologize for your comment getting hung-up in the spam filter.

      I think we need to make a distinction here. As we both agree, a long gun has it all over a handgun in terms of firepower. Most any long gun you can name is a real conversation stopper, whereas handguns are pretty crap in the threat cessation department. To understand my position, we need to clarify the who and what of the question.

      A well-trained defender could repulse an attacker or attackers with a pencil and a pack of gum. By the same token, if I was on a SWAT team or clearing houses in Afghanistan, I wouldn’t even think about using a handgun. (Unless I had to.) But if we’re talking about the average homeowner with average gun-handling and gun-fighting skills, which is to say practically none, a long gun is going to present a lot of challenges that they’re better off not facing.

      For example, retention. How many shotgun-wielding home owners would know or remember to shoot the bad guy off the end of the gun? How many would know to keep the muzzle well down when coming out of a doorway? How many could shoot one-handed? How many will even bother to AIM?

      Again, with proper training, a defender can choose whatever weapon he or she likes: blades, handgun, shotgun, rifle, whatever. They can maintain several alternatives. But most people are better off with a simple strategy for a home invasion. Something like: grab a handgun, get the kids behind them in a safe(ish) location, dial 911 (hopefully the alarm is already sounding), switch to a shotgun, assume a defensive position and wait.

      • No apologies necessary, it’s my own fault for lousy nesting.

        With clarification for the who and what, I think I can agree. It frustrates me no end that the average is low, but I know I have to acknowledge you’re right.

        Thanks,
        JSG

  10. “As for the reload: I am asking if there was any way to integrate a drum mag or extension that rotates. This would bring up the shell count and drop the reloads. And with no switches. It would eliminate the need for this gun entirely.”

    Rotating extensions exist, I’ve seen a couple at 3-gun matches. 5 tubes, each with 5 rounds, plus another 4 inside the standard magazine. All springloaded, so you have 29+1 rounds of 12-gauge. Big, complicated, and HEAVY. They’re so heavy that the gun doesn’t swing very well. You can just about ignore the pigeon flippers, you’re not going to swing fast enough to hit them.

    I think they’re only available for Remingtons right now, since Mossbergs use a different magazine attachment method.

    And Drum mags equal Saigas, which can be finnicky. I do not want a finnicky weapon for home defense!

    • “Rotating extensions exist, I’ve seen a couple at 3-gun matches. 5 tubes, each with 5 rounds, plus another 4 inside the standard magazine. All springloaded, so you have 29+1 rounds of 12-gauge. Big, complicated, and HEAVY. They’re so heavy that the gun doesn’t swing very well. You can just about ignore the pigeon flippers, you’re not going to swing fast enough to hit them.

      I think they’re only available for Remingtons right now, since Mossbergs use a different magazine attachment method.

      And Drum mags equal Saigas, which can be finnicky. I do not want a finnicky weapon for home defense!”

      Yes, I know the extensions exist. I was actually wondering if and when someone would go ahead and integrate the rotating extensions into the shotgun from factory. Someone tried and true like Mossberg or Benelli.

      Don’t even mention Saigas. They are the reason I would want a reliable manufacturer to be making them. Some people love them but I am not a fan and the conversion kits seem way too trashy too me. I am not looking for an AA-12 or anything but it would be nice to have a civvy version.

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