Joe “Double Barrel” Biden has been shooting his mouth off again. After advising home owners to fire warning shots from a double barrel shotgun to ward off home invaders, the President’s point man on civilian disarmament told Field & Stream readers to unleash a scattergun blast through a door in an emergency.
The Veep also defended his opinion that double-barreled shotguns are better than “assault rifles” for the fairer sex. “Most people can handle a shotgun a hell of a lot better than they can a semi-automatic weapon in terms of both their aim and in terms of their ability to deter people coming.”
I guess Joe hasn’t seen the viral video of female shotgun fails racking-up the views on YouTube. Or asked anyone who actually owns an AR-style rifle why they don’t have a shotgun instead. Or, I dunno, compared firearm genres at a range.
But let’s think about this a bit more . . .
Joe is asking Americans to forgo modern sporting rifles for double barreled shotguns because shotguns are better in terms of their “aim” and their “ability to deter people coming.”
So, what does Double Barreled Biden mean by “aim”? Is he saying that a shotgun is easier to get on target than a modern sporting rifle? Then he’s wrong for [at least] three reasons.
1. Recoil
The video mentioned above is no laughing matter. OK, it is (especially if you’re German). But recoil is a big issue when it comes to accurately acquiring a target.
If a shooter is “afraid” of the gun’s recoil, if prior experience has conditioned them to flinch (in anticipation of said recoil), their aim is going to suck. Even if it doesn’t initially, it may well do for follow-up shots. Shots that could be the difference between life and death.
Generally speaking (as we will in this post), a shotgun has more recoil than an AR-style rifle. Yes, there are smaller gauge shotguns with relatively less recoil than their big-bore cousins. And ammo makers sell reduced recoil loads. And it’s also true that plenty of scattergun owners train themselves to handle their shotgun’s recoil. But plenty more don’t.
That list of shooters who don’t cope well (i.e. aim) with shotguns is not limited to women, younger shooters, older shooters, smaller shooters and handicapped shooters. But they account for a large percentage of the recoil averse. Just sayin’ . . .
In contrast, an AR-15 is a pussycat. D’uh! In most cases, the rifle fires a slightly-larger than .22 caliber round—as compared to a fusillade of lead. Modern sporting rifles make a lot of noise, but they don’t have half the kick of a double-barreled 12-guage shotgun. Ultimately, that makes them easier to aim.
2. Fit
AR-style rifles have adjustable stocks (void where prohibited by law). They can be manipulated to fit a wide variety of shooters’ sizes and body types. This adjustability makes the AR-style rifle easier to hold, manipulate and aim. As do the modern sporting rifle’s dreaded [/sarcasm] pistol grip and fore grip (void where prohibited by law).
Shotguns, by and large, do not have adjustable stocks, pistol grips or fore grips (you guessed it: void where prohibited by law). If you’re lucky/rich enough to have a custom-made double-barreled shotgun, or can afford to modify a Benelli M4 with an adjustable stock ($600) and don’t live in California, good for you!
A good, experienced, able-bodied shooter can aim any firearm quickly and efficiently. Most Americans find the AR-15 style rifle the easiest to modify and, thus, bring to bear on a target.
3. Optics
Optics or sighting systems—from scopes to red dots—make a HUGE difference in a shooter’s ability to accurately aim a long gun. Which is why the vast majority of rifle owners, millions of them, mount optics on their modern sporting rifles. It’s a relatively simple process with enormous ergonomic benefits for aimed or directed fire.
Some shotguns accept optics. Most don’t. Their recoil makes optics generally unreliable and, if not, expensive. Besides, a shotgun is (again generally) a short-range weapon. At “combat distance” it puts out a spread of lead roughly the size of a softball. While you MUST aim a shotgun, it’s not as much of an aimed weapon as a rifle.
Does that make a shotgun “easier” to aim than a rifle? Nope. But it does makes a shotgun less accurate in terms of hitting exactly what you’re aiming at—and nothing else. In other words, setting aside “over-penetration” issues, a shotgun has more potential for creating collateral damage than a rifle.
I wonder if Double Barrel Biden thought about that. At all. Ever. ‘Cause Joe also said this . . .
We can argue whether that’s true or not [that a shotgun is easier to aim and more of a deterrent], but it is no argument that, for example, a shotgun could do the same job of protecting you. Now, granted, you can come back and say, ‘Well, a machine gun could do a better job of protecting me.’ No one’s arguing we should make machine guns legal.”
Joe should know. Anyone with any experience of firearms (as Joe claims) would know that a shotgun does not do the same job as a modern sporting rifle.
A shotgun unleashes a number of projectiles at once, making it a superb not-to-say devastating short-range weapon. It’s not bad at longer ranges, but nowhere near as effective as a modern sporting rifle, which fires a single projectile with terrific accuracy.
Don’t get me wrong: either gun can be used for short or long range distances. But both have their strengths and weaknesses. Sensibly enough, many gun owners have both platforms. Denying Americans modern sporting rifles because shotguns exist is like denying ice cream lovers chocolate because vanilla exists. Or vice versa.
As for making machine guns legal, yes please. Not because machine guns are more effective for self-defense than a semi-automatic rifle or a shotgun, but because We the People have a Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear [any] arms. Just sayin’ . . .
Finally, the idea that a shotgun is a better deterrent than a modern sporting rifle is just silly. Like 90 percent of what comes out of Double Barrel Biden’s mouth on the subject of guns. If you’d like to me to ID the 10 percent that does make sense, do me a favor. Give me a minute . . .
I lose IQ points every time Uncle Joe opens his mouth…
If that’s the case then you and I are both dumber than a rock. I’m scared. I don’t want a piece of sand to be smarter than me!
Vice Presidents: Easier to replace, more of an idiot than the actual President.
This just gets better and better. Somebody get a bigger shovel for Shotgun Joe, so he can dig himself in even faster.
Maybe SJ will get a YouTube channel where he demonstrates his mastery of all things gun-ish!
La Bamba can demonstrate his talents at shooting skeets on it.
Just when I thought it couldn’t be done, I am proved wrong yet again in utter delight while this man’s stupidity serves as “words of wisdom” to the antis.
If an AR is a second rate weapon why does he rabidly want to ban it? Randy
i agree! why not ban the 2 banger if they are so much more effective? and his “more of a deterrent” argument went out the window back when meth and pcp were introduced.
Jeebus, RF, you’re way over-thinking this.
Biden thinks shotguns emit pellets in a 15-degree cone originating from the muzzle, and that the lethal range of the aforementioned cone-o’-destruction is 50 feet or more.
It has nothing to do with optics, or recoil, or anything else. Biden is portraying the shotgun as firing a cone-shaped death ray that obliterates all that stands in its way with 100% reliability.
The scary thing is that he might actually believe that’s possible, including the idea that #8 birdshot will actually do more than startle and anger a bad guy 50 feet downrange.
Joe’s mixing up shotguns with meltaguns. Easy mistake to make. I make that mistake all the time.
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Meltagun#.US_64fq9LTo)
+1 for the Warhammer 40K reference. Nerd.
Maybe he thinks that real shotguns work like the ones that Ogryns carry.
I’d prefer a stormbolter.
You know, maybe they think like Orks, so when we put scary hardware on scary black rifles, they really do think it changes a .223 round into a .75 caliber, mass reactive explosive bolt shell with a super dense metallic core and diamantine tip. Also, red and racing stripes really do make the car go faster!
…Putting the Deathwatch RPG book away now…
-1 You put ‘Biden’ and ‘thinks’ in the same sentence.
If Biden thought, then he’d have thought this: “Pres. Obama has made me the point man on the gun banning campaign. Hilary isn’t talking about guns, even though she’s free on sabbatical. Now I look like an idiot for the 2016 campaign. And they’ve got all these videos of me mouthing clueless blather. And they’ve tagged me with the cognomen ‘Shotgun Joe.’ Oh, nooooooo…..”
I didn’t say he was thinking clearly or using logical reasoning. Even my dog thinks, in a hazy “I sure would like a cheeseburger right now” sort of way. Like Biden, though, he’s not quite clear on how to go from wanting a cheeseburger to convincing me that I should make that his new standard meal.
Your comparison fully clarifies your statement!
Slow Joe needs to go hunting with Dick Cheney. I’ll bet the Secret Service has a special team that sweeps ahead of Biden for any sharp objects or any way to start fires. They put safety caps in electrical outlets and only let him eat with a spork. Wonder how many times a day they have to remind him to breath?
I hate Barry, make no mistake about it. But I sure hope he survives to compleat his term. Slow Joe as the prez is scary.
“Joe, do not take the cork off the fork.”
“Why is there a cork on the fork?”
*Joe pokes his eye patch*
at least you don’t have to worry about this VP shooting you with a shotgun like the last one.
Go wandering about downrange and you get what you get. Joe Biden is advocating shooting thru a closed door.
Once again, every time I hear crazy Joe speak, I envy the village that lost their idiot.
Unofficial caption contest entry:
“I STILL have no idea what I’m doing!”
While laughing at Biden may make us feel smug and superior, the more time we devote attention and resources to Biden’s stupid comment, the less time and attention is being devoted to more important issues affecting our gun rights.
Here in Colorado, the state senate is going to have hearings about
* universal background checks
* fees for those background checks
* banning licensed CCW on college campuses
* restricting magazine capacity to 15 rounds
and I have yet to see any type of advertisement or public relations campaign from the major gun rights groups about these issues aimed at the general public.
Biden isn’t the idiot, we are. And the anti-gunners must be laughing at us every day.
Disagree. Gun rights advocates need to steal a page from the civilian disarmament movement and personalize their enemies. The average person won’t even pause to consider the fine print of a bill. But they will wonder why is this guy Biden in charge of this? How good can gun control be if Biden’ s behind it and HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT.
Like that.
1. “Well, I was for universal background checks. It’s just common sense.”
2. “Then I heard Biden say we should use shotguns for home defense.”
3. “It’s the same advice I’ve heard from gun stores for decades.”
4. ?????
5. “Now I’m against universal background checks.”
Bingo.
Actually, some 501(c)(4) groups are starting recall petitions against some of the Democrats from the west slope who voted for this package of legislation.
Nothing gets the attention of a political hack like a recall election.
Yes, in California, we lost the recall vote of Roberti… but it ended up forcing him out of office because he ran out of money for the regular election cycle. He ended up appointed in some hack job where he couldn’t do jack about guns again.
The message didn’t sink in until ’94, when a slew of Democrats lost their seats after the Brady and AWB bills – about 21 of them. This time, it won’t take a ’94-like election to wake them up. Their political consultants will provide the institutional memory.
The problem for these backwater dim-bulb Democrat politicians in CO is that they’ve been listening to phone calls from Vice President Hairplugs, and thinking that the Obama administration gives a rat’s rear end about anyone or anything other than themselves. Because these backwater Democrat hacks want to be seen as loyal (ie, naive) Democrats, they have failed to notice that Obama reciprocates no loyalty whatsoever to people who have done his bidding. As soon as the heat is on, they get tossed beneath the Obama campaign bus.
Check out Colorado Accountability.
I was just watching Shooting Gallery on the Outdoor recently and Michael Bane had done penetration tests… that shotgun even with buckshot will overpenetrate noticable (completely through the geletain block). 5.56 will tumble and won’t. But hey, why let a few honest facts get in the way of a perfectly fake argument.
Would somebody please show this man a semi-automatic shotgun?
Yeah a man followed his advice and is in Virginia and he is in jail now. This guy on shooting threw doors approach is past bad words for it its just…… DUMB!!!
Just for the pure tacticoolness factor
I fitted my Mossy 500 with an adjustable stock, a nice pistol grip, a totally useless heat shield, and the biggest muzzle brake you ever saw.
Damned thing looks silly, and is by now probably illegal in 9 states, but it fits great and is the softest shooting pump action ever.
Who is he even trying to convince? Gun owners know the shootability between an AR and shotgun is night and day, and non gun owners don’t give a sh*t, so who is this bogus message meant for? I get their typical anti-gun propaganda, and what they try to accomplish by telling the sheeple that an AR-15 is satan’s favorite toy, but this shotgun BS makes zero sense.
It gives the know-nothings a talking point. Biden’s not talking to gun owners, despite that being the purpose for the talk, but to the anti-gun crowd.
Those than can handle a 12 gauge shotgun can most assuredly handle a 5.56 AR, but that doesn’t go the other way around. That is a plain fact. The most effective home defense shotgun (technically) is nothing like what Biden suggests because he is suggesting incremental self-disarmament. He knows, or should know the plain fact that, a SXS 12 gauge isn’t effective, that’s the point.
Has Biden reflected upon this? I’d guess there must be more than 10 million living breathing vets, perhaps many more, who’ve gone through training with an M16 or M4a. And they vote. And each one of them knows the shotgun bit is absurd, whether as to recoil, follow-up, handling in confined space, capacity, or sighting. That can’t be good. If Obama’s gun move fails, he’ll just say “oh, Joe. You screwed up so badly!” Hilary 1, Biden 0.
He’s legitimizing the argument for anti-gunners to use that it’s perfectly OK to reduce armed citizens to 2-shots-and-done guns.
This message isn’t for us. It’s to be used AGAINST us.
What is it with Vice Presidents and double barrel shotguns? Cheney was using an over under btw.
Biden is on a roll, this has all come out in what, a week? Maybe by the end of the month (if Obama dosnt tell him to SHTFU) Biden will have a huge meltdown. He already looks on the brink in this pic.
Anybody want to bet that if you showed Biden a 223 and 30-06 that he would pick the 30-06 as the AR round because it’s scary big?
Nice. Yep. Bet you’re right. Or say “everybody knows a bolt action 30.-’06 is easier for a woman to shoot that an AR. Nobody needs more than five rounds. I told Jill, if you hear a noise out back, just rack that Model 70 and fire a warning shot through the roof.”
Aw, hell, you could put a 50BMG next to a 5.56 and he’d probably pick the 50BMG round as the one that goes with the AR.
Biden’s logic is based on the fundamental truth that the guns themselves know who the bad guys are. If a bad guy decides to use an AR rather than a double barrel shotgun against an LEO, the gives the bad guy a morally wrong advantage over the officer.
If you use an AR rather than a double barrel shotgun against a criminal trying to murder you, you are using a less effective weapon. So apparently the firearms know who the bad guys are and behave differently depending on the morals of the nut behind the trigger.
Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle
Published on March 12th, 2012
Written by: Nick Leghorn
Rifles are, without a doubt, the worst idea. They’re cumbersome to maneuver, you need to put them down to do anything productive, and they don’t give you any additional benefits. The shotgun got you a little wiggle room in terms of accuracy, but the rifle is just as unforgiving – shooting wise – with the added benefit of having to worry about where the rounds eventually end up. Like the neighbor’s bedroom. Oh, and they’re much louder than handguns and therefor more likely to permanently harm your family members’ hearing.
The only situation where this ranking (pistols best, then shotguns, then rifles) is reversed is if you have large swaths of land and expect the bad guys to be firing at you from dozens of yards away. In that situation, a rifle would come in handy. But considering where most people in the world live (namely cities and suburbs) it doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Speaking of making NEW class III’s legal (and accessible), imagine the home defense awesomeness of a 3-shot-burst AR-15 ::drools::
3 shot burst with 5.56 would be useful defensively against a small number of targets in some situations. Given their effectiveness, they are (practically speaking) not allowed, as gun legislation is not designed to help people protect themselves, ironically.
On another note, I’d like to see Joe do a “run n gun” course, with double-barrel optional (though preferred, for the purpose of our entertainment).
The reason for the three shot burst on the M-16/M-4 is the poor lethality of the 5.56 round. The three rounds are going to the same point. It is a concession to the superiority of the 308 Winchester round. The three round setting gives you 10 trigger pulls which is not any better than a Garand and half that of an M-1A. This is what happens when you use a small animal round designed for hunting in a military weapon.
As for VP Hairplugs’ advice on shooting through doors:
The only person who could possibly get away using that advice is David Gregory. Most everyone else is going to be under lock and key within an hour of the po-po coming to that scene and hearing about how someone didn’t know or positively ID the guy on the other side of the door before lettin’ rip with a couple barrels of 12 ga.
Now the gun bunnies and self-styled experts on shooting start to realize the wisdom of my position about guns and self-defense. The best gun for your self-defense is (drum roll, Maestro): The one you’ve got in your hands at the time. They’re all better than a sharp stick, and a sharp stick is better than nothing. I’ll take a muzzle-loading, percussion cap black powder .54 cal pistol with miserable sights in my hands over a “perfect” gun that’s locked up and unloaded, 10 out of 10 times. I’ve grown beyond arguing about the “best” gun based on all this hypothetical nonsense, because I learned in the ’90’s that the gun grabbers will use “Goldilocks Gun Control” against us.
You know about “Goldilocks Gun Control,” right? “This gun is too big,” and “This other gun has too many bullets,” and “This gun is too small,” and “This gun is too accurate.”
Don’t play favorites. As we used to say on rec.guns: “Buy them all.”
I’ve as much business setting policy for the FAA as Biden does setting policy on guns.
Hey, look. You deleted my comment, but I was right. I overestimated the quantity, though. I said 60, and there’s only 40 so far.
Why do people keep claiming that machine guns are illegal?
Many (if not most) machine guns are “illegal” to most people (in the USA).
Lots of fees and paperwork for a common citizen to buy one of a limited quantity that are old and becoming older, uncommon and becoming rarer, very expensive and becoming more so, is not what I would consider “legalized”.
Cocaine is allowed by the state also, but only to some people for certain uses. I wouldn’t label it as “legalized”.
That’s how I would defend my calling full auto weapons illegal.
I agree though that it’s good to educate unknowing people that these weapons aren’t completely banned and, with a typical successful criminal’s budget, can be bought (though home made/modified is cheaper and draws less attention). Despite this, machine guns still haven’t killed off our society, as some probably imagine.
I could see your argument, but you are still confounding the terms “illegal” with “hard-and-expensive-to-get”.
Can we please drop the “modern sporting rifle” nonsense? Just say “rifle”. Because that’s all it is. By drawing a distinction between these types of rifles and more traditional “hunting” rifles, we’re playing the game on the anti-gunner’s terms. If you believe that an AR is no different than any other semi-auto rifle, and all the scary “assault weapon” features are just cosmetic, then why do we need a special term for them? They’re all rifles. Call it a semi-auto rifle if you need to differentiate it from a boltie or a lever gun, but “modern sporting rifle” is such a clumsy term.
It’s not easy being Biden(moron). First and formost a twelve guage with home defense loads are a great home defense weapon. Having said that Each situation is different. I prefer a pump with an 18″ barrel with five rounds and LOTS of PRACTICE.
“In 1964, Colt introduced a semi auto only version of the M-16, for civilian sales.”
( advertisement wording as follows )
superb hunting partner…Colt’s new AR-15 Sporter
With Colt’s new AR-15 Sporter, you’re ready for a new hunting adventure.
The AR-15 Sporter weighs only six pounds, its .223 cal., 55grain bullet has a muzzle velocity of 3,100 fps. Every AR-15 Sporter is factory targeted at 100 yards.
If you’re a hunter, camper or collector, you’ll want the AR-15 Sporter. At any Registered Colt Dealer
$189.50
Worth a look, if for no other reason than to see the pic of an original advertisement.
http://www.notpurfect.com/main/ar15.htm
Interesting to consider that the semi automatic AR and its variants, having now been available on the ‘Civilian’ market for well over 40 years, are erroneously defined as ‘Assault Weapons’ when owned privately by Citizens.
Persons advocating the necessity for more ‘gun control laws’ have referred to them in a variety of manners, including but not limited to machine guns, evil killing machines, implements of mass destruction and weapons of war to name a few.
When used by persons in Law Enforcement they’ve been referred to as ‘patrol rifles’.
Colt designated their full-auto / select-fire weapons purchased by the Military and branches of various alphabet agencies as ’defensive platforms’.
More recently, the Department of Homeland Security defined the 5.56x45mm, select-fire M4 with collapsible stock, pistol grip and flash suppressor as a “Personal Defense Weapon”.
Most people who either own or are actually familiar with them simply call them AR’s.
As for DB Joe, given the vast amount of evidence he’s so conveniently provided, as an entertainer, he’d be only mildly amusing. As a man in a position as Vice President of the United States, the best that could be said is that he’s an embarrassment to the office he holds.
From only a slightly different perspective, any rational person would have little choice other than to conclude — “Yes, he really is that stupid.”
Ol’ Plugs reminds me of an old Three Stooges quote whenever he speaks:
“Every time you think you weaken the nation” from the episode, appropriately enough, “Half Shot Shooters”, 1934.
That picture, just wow! He looks deranged, or like Russia just emptied their missle silos towards us. Or is he grasping his horns, ol 666Joe?
Varmint round versus God’s Wrath?
I’ve fired some pretty fancy AR15s, from an NFA M16 to an original ArmaLite AR15A2 HBAR, an LWRC M6, a Colt pistol-variant of some such.
There is no passion in these pathetic, soulless toys.
There is only one true weapon, and that is the Mosin-Nagant.
Politics aside, even Colonel Jeff Cooper has stated on numerous times that nothing really beats a double-barreled shotgun. He has further stated that he has never heard of any civilian or policeman needing more than two shots of 12 gauge buckshot or heavy birdshot to finish a disturbance. I had 30 insertions as a LRRP and was very glad to have an XM16E1 with the 20 round magazines we had in 1966-67 but, looking back, I would have been well served with a 12 gauge with 6 rounds in the tube: 3 AK-47 handlers and a dug-in RPD team at 15 meters in worst case.
More of a Deterrent is when dozens of rounds start going into ur body or buzzing past ur ears or blowing out the drywall ur hiding behind…Disclaimer: Don’t shoot through the door/wall etc. and kill ur neighbor warning u ur roof is on fire @ 3am always be sure of ur target and what is behind it.
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