EDITORIAL: Can Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms be Trusted for the Long Haul?

1. Well I’m sorry to have to say I didn’t believe these two companies from the get-go there is no way a company this size of Springfield Armory that pays hundreds of thousands of dollars to attorneys every year didn’t know what their lobbyists were doing with the cash they were giving them give me a break Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms you are full of crap. They would have been better off to be honest about it come out and said yeah we will worried about being able to keep our business going and actually keeping our employees employed so we made a deal with the devil which we are pulling completely back from as of now. I would have had a hell of a lot more respect for the companies that were honest to the public Knowing damn well that reporters like the guys that right here we’re going to dig that crap up about them lying about what exactly they knew and when they knew it. I wouldn’t cross the street to piss on these companies if they were on fire. Never to be trusted again this is what happens when you have people running large gun manufacturing outfits that aren’t gun people they may claim to be gunned people but obviously they could care less about the Second Amendment as long as they could put another dollar in their wallets. My advice keep the boycott Full Ahead and let these companies learn their lesson for good with companies like this we don’t need anti-gunners.

   • Dumb laws like this are the inevitable result when the 2nd amendment community continues to be totally unreasonable and unwilling to compromise. When that moron Wayne L. said every school teacher should be armed, the other said clearly determined they too had to be unreasonable and never give an inch. Reasonable people can find reasonable solutions, and I’m fed up with everyone saying “the other side” is 100% wrong. Both sides have become unreasonable, arrogant, self-rightous and simply pathetic.

     • Shall not. What about the rest of the Amendments? Why bother with the rest of the U.S.Constitution? Sarcasm

     • Those are interesting points…
       Tell us, what other sorts of compromises are you willing to make on the rest of your civil rights?

     • Nope. The only reasonable solution is to not infringe. “Shall not infringe,” as Jack points out. It is very simple! No accommodations for those that would strip us of our fundamental human rights. None. Not now, not ever.

       I am willing to compromise on something like health care (even when I disagree) because I am willing to say I don’t understand all the ramifications. Or in analyzing art that I don’t understand.

       No complexity to our rights. No step on snake.

     • There is nothing unreasonable, arrogant, self righteous, or pathetic when it comes to defending the Constitution. The only side that has comprised is “our” side. And all we’ve gotten for our trouble is more infringements! Not one more inch. Regarding SA and RRA…FOAD! I cancelled my latest order and will enjoy watching you turncoats go out of business. RRA you better suck up even more to the gub’ment, ’cause uncle sugar’s misapproriated tax dollars will be the only thing keeping you afloat.

     • The last time citizens of a nation compromised on their natural, god given rights, tyranny came knocking. Simply put, you cannot compromise with people hell bent on seeking to deprive you of your constitutional rights.

       • ^^ This.

       • ^^^This, x1,000,000. Think it through, John. All. The. Way. Through.

     • With Americans such as yourself, John…who needs communist infiltrators? What an absoulute moronical thing to say. You should leave your 2A card at the door on your way to France….

     • I’ve never seen a compromise on gun law. I’ve seen plenty of half measures by both sides. The closest thing to a compromise I’ve ever seen is the FOPA which did a lot for gun owners but included the Hughes Amendment. I’d argue that the legislation wasn’t a compromise because the Hughes Amendment was added to the bill through shenanigans, not mutual consent.

     • Well….

       The other side IS 100% wrong.

       Now what?

     • John, Compromise means they are offering something in return for us to accept this law. What is it they are offering gun owns? Nothing that I can see is positive for gun owners and dealers. That’s not a compromise. Hence the reason you get very little compromise anymore from the pro gun side. We have been burned by “compromise” to many times. We have meet them halfway so many times they are now on our door step. There is no more halfway left to give. We compromised with the 1934 NFA, 1968 Gun Control act, 1986 Hughes amendment, 1993 brady bill, assault weapons ban (which was only undone because of a built in sunset). Then there are the State and local laws to numerous to list.

       The only compromise we get is when we take these laws to the courts. By then it is to late. Its better to fight them before they are law. Being uncompromising saves us a lot of problems down the road. The antis offer us nothing in return for any of these laws. When people of the gun want some protection we are expected to compromise like what happened with the 1986 Hughes and we got screwed. But when the anti-gun want a law we are expected to accept it as is. If you really want compromise then give people of the gun national reciprocity for concealed carry, remove the ban on machine guns, remove silencers from the NFA (short barreled rifles and shotguns while your at it), getting rid of gun free zones, make law enforcement carve outs illegal, and a ban on local jurisdictions passing laws that violate the 2nd amendment (treat the 2nd the same as you would the 1st). That would be a start at compromise.

       • Agreed 100%

     • I see, this is all somehow the NRA’s fault…how could I have been so blind?

       This is some classic concern trolling here man. I’ll bet I guess your voting record based on this one comment.

     • John is probably a member of Moms Demand Action……so he can get some.

       • I doubt he gets much. They strike me as ABC women.

     • Why should politicians and banks be protected by armed guards BUT NOT SCHOOLS?

       • “Why should politicians and banks be protected by armed guards BUT NOT SCHOOLS?”

         Because….children???

         Just kidding. Yours is the essential question.

     • Did some leftist website like Mother Jones link to this website? I feel like the–Soros funded– Prog trolls are out in force. Go back to your mothers’ basements where it is safe. I am sure that you will still be able to effectively play Call of Duty and choose what Batman costume​ you will wear to your next ANTIFA event.

     • Well John, “Compromise” is a long slippery slope when Constitutional Rights are on the table. When, in your estimation, will there no longer be a need for compromise on the 2A? No need to Google it, contact some of your liberal friends and ask them.
       Are you prepared to Compromise your 1A rights away to the point, that you no longer can come on these forums and express your opinion? That is what is happening in Europe right now and with the complicity of American-based companies like Facebook and Twitter.

       • In Canada, you can be prosecuted for something you put on a website hosted in the US, while living in the US, even if you are not a Canadian. Mark Steyn can tell you all about it.
         https://www.steynonline.com

         • Maybe the solution is to make the Bill of Rights Universal across the globe. Hell, even make our Constitution the pattern all other countries need to model themselves after. If you want true globalization, that would do it. Unfortunately, the rest of world is happy putting the power of the government first and foremost and the view that those rights are God-given is not shared as well.

     • I love it how liberals and anti-freedom types always cloak themselves with the label of “reasonable” when advocating their bare-naked and morally bankrupt methods and seek to impose them on the rest of us.

       • Indeed. One person’s “reasonable” is this person’s ‘infringed’.

     • I’m pro-gun rights, and an NRA life member, but I do think the pro-gun community has a higher concentration of morons than the other side. The NRA realizes this too, which is why their statements have become more and more simple-minded over the years.

       What don’t I understand about ‘Shall Not Infringe’?

       For starters, I don’t understand how we can restrict citizens from bearing nuclear weapons if the Second Amendment cannot be interpreted in the context of reality.

     • Sorry, John, but you are wrong. Have you even read 2A?

   • The so-called exposed dirty deal of two weeks ago was a year late. Illinois last year’s attempt to pass the same bill (lost by 1 vote) was after Illinois State Government carved out RRA and SA in 2016. SA and RRA donated the same large sums of money to continue defeat of the bill again this year regardless of last years Illinois State Government exemption clause.

     Very important to recognized RRA and SA continuing support compared to promoting negative reactions among the firearm community often calling for boycott and destruction two of our own very important Firearm Manufactures with a long history of fighting against the destruction of our 2nd Amendment Rights only to increase subscriptions and advertising profits.

     The so-called exposed dirty deal when IFMA donated thousands of dollars to anti-Gun Democrats is typical lobbying practises. NRA , GOA, and local Grass Roots Lobbyist do it all the time. Lobbyist can not access politicians without donations. If a lobbying group does not donate to opposition politicians that particular lobbying group can’t express their case to persuade opposition politicians to understand full spectrum of all concerns.

     Politicians are not forced by state or federal laws to listen to opposition lobbyists or groups. Politicians reserve the right to ignore whomever they choose and only allow into their offices prefer people which 99% are donors. If you don’t donate to politicians you’ll never have an opportunity to express your concerns, bottom-line. You don’t have to like the system, but if you’re going to run with the big dogs you have to pay-to-play…!

     Using this political lobbying tactic to sham IFMA, RRA, and SA is ignorant and sort sighted promoting personal fame and commercial profit by John Boch of The Truth About GUNS. Maybe John should educate himself how politics actually works in the real world and not promote destroying Rock River Arms and Springfield Armory after they have donated $100,000s each over the years, especial when John Boch donated 0 to persuade and prevent Illinois Government Anti-Gun assault…!

     • Nice post. I’m not boycotting anyone since I’m not a hypocrite. My employer has contributed to Chris Murphy’s campaign, but I didn’t quit my job. There is a list of numerous news outlets and corporations that “anti” gun that I am knowingly or unknowingly a customer of. The worst thing we can do is eat our own and be divided. A distressingly number of us are too happy to do just that.

     • Ok brad,

       You go see a prostitute (is there a better way to think of a Demoncrap?) who has stated that she only sees men of a certain monetary value and you aren’t one of them. You pay her money for her ahem, time anyway. She laughs in your face and walks away with your money.

       Then, months or a year later you see her again and offer her more money even though you know her stance and her, well, hatred for you. She says she’ll think about it this time so you give the prostitute more money. She laughs in your face and walks away again.

       You see the same prostitute and your still thinking that you may finally get something from her if you give her some more money. At this point you haven’t realized that it’s never going to happen. You are a moron. Your throwing good money after bad is considered by anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together as being so stupid that the fact that you lived this long while being so idiotic must be an act of divine intervention.

       `You aren’t granted anything. They never do and never will. This is known by even the most brain dead lefty 16 year old from an inner city school that reads at a 3rd grade level. You can beg till you die of oxygen deprivation. These people hate your guts and only wish for your death in the most horrific and painful way possible. Oh we know exactly how “politics” work. Only a fool or turncoat would try to explain away treachery as just “being part of the game, and you just don’t understand how it works”.

       Here is what I do know. Treasurers sign the checks that go out, as specially the BIG ONES! They were well aware of what was going on. Saying that they are now against the bill and “Really going for the gold trying to kill it” is like a child molester saying that they themselves will personally give the kid they molested therapy to help them deal with the trauma. Oh, and say they are sorry of course. They didn’t know it was wrong after all. Did they remove their names from the carve out? Hell no, damn it they spent good bribe money getting it!

       John Boch said we should forgive them? What does he get by “Pushing this shadowy deal out into the light”? Looks like the same 100 to 200 posts and I’m willing to bet the same people that read TTAG every day. Did they have something to gain when they laid into Remington for producing crap? So what, TTAG is now anti-jobs? No, they saw a flagrant bunch of horse crap that was being kicked under the fence into the people of Illinois’ yard. What do they gain. 2 more manufacturers that won’t send them guns for T&E? It sure as heck doesn’t get them more advert money. Yeah, it’s all TTAGs fault! Evil exposers corruption, how dare they!

       I wouldn’t be surprised if Brad worked for SA or RRA. His post sounds like their sort of back-pedaling drivel designed to explain away any responsibility for their despicable actions. If they had morals they wouldn’t be getting the much deserved shaft that they’re receiving. They wish that so many free thinkers and skeptics that know bull crap when the smell it didn’t exist. We refuse to be fed that load so take it somewhere else where excuses and smelly holes are appreciated, like an antifa rally! I will boycott SA and RRA and so will all my friends and co-workers until the current owners and upper management of both companies are no longer in any way making money from either company. Sold and management fired, period. This needs to serve as a warning to all manufacturers. Screwing over the 2nd will not be tolerated and no quarter will be given. No exceptions!

     • “Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do it.”

       A quote by Jeff Goldblum’s character from the movie “Jurassic Park.”

2. NO…they can’t be trusted. Giving THOUSANDS to the likes of Cullerton/Madigan sealed it for this 64year Illinois resident…

   • If they truly wanted to repent they would pay the 5k licensing fee for all the non carve out ffls in the state. We all know thats never gonna happen….with allies like these, who needs North Korea?

3. Transparency is important, and it is good that John Boch called them out on what was going on. He deserves to be applauded for his work.

   That said, we’re in a fight and are not in a position to turn out noses up at allies. They did something that was harmful, the gun owning community in Illinois and elsewhere raised cain about it, and now, chastened, they’re…doing what we asked/demanded that they do.

   We don’t need to sow the fields with salt on this. Now that they’ve seen the light, let’s join forces and crush this bill.

   Eyes on the prize.

   • Agreed with you I can let it go but some type of safeguard has to be implemented and put into place to keep an eye on these guys and they need to turn over complete transparency of their lobbyists and who they’re getting the money from and where they’re giving the money to and this should be monitored by an independent third-party for both of these companies to make sure that some Undeclared money doesn’t find its way back into some of these liberal Democrats pockets. We gave them our trust so did the NRA so did every American gun owner they broke that trust so we no longer have a trust between Springfield and Rock River day need to provide a third-party monitorial system that keep sure that their money doesn’t find its way back to the enemies slush fund that’s only fair and they should pay for it.

   • You burn heretics, not embrace them as allies.

     • I’m with you. If these two go out of business someone else will pick up their customers. Hopefully someone who will remember not to shit where they eat.

   • The first thing they need to do, before we can even begin to trust them, is to come clean and admit the truth….which, so far, I haven’t seen them do. Then they can ASK FOR FORGIVENESS from the 2A community and lay out their plan to make this right. Right now, this looks like pure ‘oh shit, we got caught and nobody is going to buy our stuff unless we look like we’re doing something’ damage control.

   • I echo the above sentiment. Given that SB 1657 moved out of House committee yesterday; we should maintain our focus on keeping this bill from showing up on the Governor’s desk. (He’s up for re-election in 2018 – and has gone on record favoring “common-sense” gun control legislation).

     FYI – a similar piece of legislation, with the same “carve-outs” was introduced in the Il. Senate in 2016. The point? There’s nothing new here – and we’re playing into the hands of anti-gun politicians and organizations when we start fighting among ourselves as opposed to fighting those who would seek to infringe upon our constitutionally protected rights.

     • I am sure it hasn’t escaped anyone’s attention that when gun-control advocates start throwing around the phrase, “Common-Sense Gun Control”, it usually falls on the shoulders of the law abiding gun owners and rarely if ever, on the criminal gun owner. But then, us good-guy gun owners are really the problem in their minds and we have to be neutralized.

4. Scumbags gonna scumbag. It is sadly the way things are done in illinois.
   Reese and Larson only care about themselves. Did they think people wouldnt find out about this? They tried to screw over alot of businesses and got caught.
   Neither company can ever be trusted again. At least not until there is a bankruptcy and a change of ownership.
   I feel bad for the employees of these companies. They are the ones who are going to suffer because of Reese and Larsen’s treachery.
   F*ck the both of you.

5. If they are truly invested in their claim, then they should do what Magpul did: Pledge to leave the state should the bill pass. Anything short of that and I think they’re just blowing smoke up our collective backsides.

   • I think if the cost of doing business in Illinois is to continually have to “donate” money to politicians who support some pretty atrocious bills just to avoid something worse, which will have blowback in the form of anger from the very customer base they depend on, that will ultimately be the smart business decision for them.

     Not sure what impact it would have on the fight for 2A rights in Illinois, though. No matter what they look like on TV, politicians with any longevity tend to act in a rational, self-interested manner. Maybe they’d do what they could to stop those companies from leaving….or, maybe, once those companies had left and taken their tax bases with them, they’d feel less of an incentive to go along with bills that protect our civil rights?

     I don’t know the answer to that one….

     • When we look at Colorado, the short term anger did not drive longer term change for us. The recall votes unseated some long term politicians and still the magazine ban was not repealed and those flipped seats we won flopped back again to anti gun politicians. Colorado tossed out gun owners in favor of weed growers and dope smokers.

       Without a few strong rulings from the SCOTUS, the fight in the states is going to get really nasty. The only SCOTUS light is a possible Kennedy or Ginsburg replacement.

   • Excellent point. I’ll use it for a Question of the Day!

   • I concur, a Magpul-esque “kill the bill or we leave” type pledge (then actually following through, of course) would assuage my ill thoughts and feelings toward SA and RRA. Barring that, I won’t even consider purchase of any of their products.

   • According to google maps, they are both a mere commute away from the iowa boarder. If they moved to davenport, their employees wouldn’t even have to relocate. Would be good since iowa has been getting better and better for gun rights lately.

     • My thoughts exactly….

6. Hmmmm…..S&W, Ruger come to mind……Cheaper than Dirt, Dicks…..plus the cowards, Wal-Mart and Academy…..now these two.

   • Academy, at least the one near where I live, quietly put AR’s back on their shelves.

     • I loved Academy, but after they pulled all the AR’s from their shelves, I started to look elsewhere for my needs. Turns out the only thing they are good for is ammo (free shipping/no shipping), primers and powder (crazy expensive shipping), and use as a showroom for things I want to handle (and often buy somewhere else).

       The AR’s are back, but now I know that they* aren’t good for much, and they are not loyal to the 2A.

       *Academy, not AR’s.

7. Nope, these two companies are on the no buy list.

8. These companies have placed themselves in a do or die situation. The best case scenario for them is that the bill fails and their customers forgive and forget… eventually. If the bill passes, SA and RRA brands will be irrevocably tarnished. It will take something huge to recover, like a re-branding, an ownership change, and/or a very public mea culpa followed by leaving the state. If these were publicly traded companies the stock would already be dropping and stockholders would be asking for a leadership change. I feel bad for the rank and file employees, because this was a completely avoidable suicidal move by leadership.
   As I typed this post, I received a text from a relative telling me he was listing both his XDS and XDM for sale. The XDS was his everyday carry. These companies are in very serious trouble.

9. No…hell no!

10. Lol Lets face it we can buy ARe anywhere and Springfields 1911s aren’t special. What are we looking out on overpriced Croatian carp?

    • I’m with you. The only way companies will learn not to do things like this is for the customer base to boycott.

      There is nothing Springfield offers which is so unique that I would be obligated to buy from them. The big selling point of the XD series is—-they’re cheaper than Glocks. That’s it. They’re good firearms, but they’re not BETTER than the competition. They’re par with them. I have an XDS .45, but if that wasn’t an option, I could buy a Kahr CM45 or a Glock 36 and be just as well armed. 1911s are a dime a dozen,and so are AR-15s.

      Springfield and RRA need to suffer for what they did.

      • “1911s are a dime a dozen,and so are AR-15s.”

        I would happily buy a single STI 1911 for a dime (you can keep the other 11).

      • My daughter has a Springfield xdm 4.5 9mm that I put some work into. Was her favorite pistol to shoot until this issue. Now she grabs either the sig p229 or Glock 41. For an 11 yr girl she shows more common sense and awareness than most adults. l was disappointed by the actions of these companies. My daughter shrugged her shoulders and said it’s time to find companies that care about the 2nd amendment and their customers. And show our appreciation by giving them our business and support. From the mouths of babes.

11. Stupidity strikes everyone every now and then. People want to believe that communication at the executive level, and indeed everywhere, is perfect. People believe this despite the fact they experience imperfection in communication everyday and in fact, several times a day.

    Do not throw these folks under the bus. We need all of our allies, as imperfect as they may be on any given day. Should they be put in timeout – definitely. Lets not attack within. Whatever they did and however stupid they were on that day, lets forgive and move on. They are on our side.

12. I’m glad they’re fighting this poison bill. Still, I will never buy anything from them again and will INSIST that no one I know does either. They MUST be boycotted into bankruptcy to serve as a cautionary tale to other would be future sell outs.

13. Lol Lets face it we can buy ARs anywhere and Springfields 1911s aren’t special. What are we loosing out on overpriced Croatian crap?

    • Because that “overpriced Croatian crap” is superior to that overpriced Austrian crap?

      • Well said. I will take my xdm over a glock any day.
        Even if i hate springfield now.

        • Yeah, I have 2 Springfields, an XD45 and an XD9 mod2 Subcompact, love ’em both. But not buying any more Springfields.

      • At least the overpriced Austrian crap works perfectly out of the box.

        Usually the springfield XD(whatever) gets homesick and needs to visit it’s factory a couple times before it learns to behave.

        • More likely to happen with a Glock plus you have to fix the trigger and the sights and then you will limp wrist under stress because the grip angle is wrong.

      • “Superior”? No. Cheaper and about the same quality.

    • Actually for the price their 1911’s are pretty damn awesome. Same goes for their M1A’s.

      • Boch is probably pissed off that Springfield won’t give him freebies. /sarc

        The problem with fanatics is only a few are up to their standards and they end up destroying their own cause.

    • At least you spelled crap right that time

14. The donations to politicians are nothing short of political payoffs. The carve out within the bill negotiated via “donations” and an agreement to support a bill that hurts their competitors is what most of the world calls corruption. In many countries, this would subject the officers of the company to criminal prosecution. I know that this conduct is the way business is done in Chicago, but it doesn’t make it right or legal elsewhere. No, I prefer to give my business to honest companies who do not use stealth bribes to gain political favor. What makes this situation worse is that they get caught, and then they try to spin it

    • You mean just like the political payoffs Glock gives to anti-gun politicians in California, New York and New Jersey so they can sell to the cops who enforce their draconian gun laws?

      • I’ve assumed from the beginning that SA and RRA weren’t the only ones doing that, but can you give me a direct example of it happening so we can hold other companies’ feet to the fire?

        • I explained this before but will do it again.

          Glock, and others who sell to police in states that repress your Second Amendment rights, are endorsing those laws. This principle was established at the post WWII war crimes trials. If you sell the oppressor you assume responsibility for the oppression. Furthermore, Glock is notorious for smoothing politicians to make a sale and that includes anti-gun politicians in places like California. I consider that worse than what Springfield and RRA dis in a politically hostile state.

        • I thought you said they were giving money to Californicators.
          If somebody would show me the proof of that via campaign financing disclosures, I’ll bring the chicken feathers and boiling tar and we can have a party.

15. The present ownership of SA and RRA stabbed us in the back, as did the former owners of S&W and Ruger. We “forgave” S&W and Ruger when they changed hands — they’re both public companies now and the leadership of both companies have changed. We will forgive SA and RRA under the same conditions. Otherwise, both SA and RRA can FOAD.

    • Pretty much what I was thinking. Otherwise, if RRA and SA pulled a Magpul they would appreciate my business. I’ve certainly got Rugers and Smiths.

16. Call me a traitor. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

    • I won’t call you a traitor but I will call you naive. Think of it this way, if you do not punish a coward in combat what keeps the other cowards from running? Examples must be made, it’s the reason we punish lawbreakers.

17. I can’t buy from the current Springfield company. They should hurry up and sell it to new owners already so second amendment supporters can buy their products again.

18. Not a psychologist, but I’d be curious what Freud would think about the positioning and font size differences of the SPRINGFIELD ARMORY above DEFEND YOUR LEGACY.

    To me, it’s STILL ALL ABOUT SA & RRA (Reese / Larson and their FU’s, really). Maybe SA (and RRA) should really stop trying to promote themselves so boldly and start acting like they want to be forgiven. I’m not an Ill’y resident, but effects from this will not just stay within the boundaries of 1 state, this will be used with results from the other effed states to push other currently neutral blue states and purples over the cliff.

    If I really could get a true gauge for the production employees of SA and RRA, I might start to feel pretty sad for them as they probably didn’t have a voice in the matter.

19. All this we need allies shit is insane.

    If Illinois gun owners were your daughters, Springfield and RRA literally just forcibly ass raped them.

    Now you still want to trust them with your women?

20. For me it’s still the lobby prick. Sleazy people running down the halls waving money at elected pricks. It’s a prick on prick dick fest. In this case it got stopped. But only because of the customers. Wish we could do more.

    • The party stops when the checks dry up.

      Seems like us customers CAN do something about it!

21. You forgave them last week and don’t trust them this week?

    You sound like a wife who is being cheated on trying to hold the marriage together for the kids. So as your BFF would tell you, no don’t trust them, let them burn, get your alimony and child support and move on.

    Until these companies feel real financial pain, to include the big box stores involved in this, then they will not learn and cannot be trusted.

22. SA and RR did me a favor. In my quest to decide on a first gun, the SA EMP4 was very attractive. Didn’t like the propriety mags for a “1911”, but the test fire trip at the range was pleasing. Price was humbling, but still the EMP4 was number two on the list. No longer.

23. I texted my query to Dennis Reese’s personal cellphone. I left a voicemail for Sarah Larson, Rock River’s General Manager Monday and again Thursday. All I’ve heard in response is crickets.

    John, they probably don’t like you. They didn’t want to deal with lobbying and focused on their company in their day to day activities, so they put together a lobbying group to take care of it for them. Whether they knew about the carve out or not, we probably won’t know. Either way, they’re doing damage control right now and are outside their comfort zone, which is where you put them.

    So, gentle readers: Do you think Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms will continue their full-throated Second Amendment advocacy after we (hopefully) beat back this omnibus gun control bill? Share your thoughts in comments.

    I would hope so. In the long run, it’s in both their best interests and gun owners best interests. The iron curtain is falling in Illinois, best it doesn’t fall and certainly not to spread to other states.

    Them settling with a carve out (if they did), means they accept a defeatist stance and a losing proposition and are just trying to milk everything they can while it lasts.

    • I don’t care if they like me or not. It was a softball question, just hanging there for them to say, “Oh, heck yes!” if that’s their true thoughts. Instead, they refuse comment.

      If they were prudent and wise, they would have already hired a PR crisis mitigation firm to do disaster remediation. Instead, both companies rely on the owners’ daughters to handle their manage damage control as they sink to the bottom of the sea.

      John

      • They’re dead to me.

        Several YouTube channels noticed what was evidently paid commenters leaving multiple similar comments on their channels that have since disappeared, all with remarkably similar comments.

        Dennis Reese is an ethically compromised individual, http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/16/Salvador-based-Army-colonel-indicted-on-bribery-charges/5406606027600/

        Unless both companies are sold to non family members, I’ll never trust them.

        • On Facebook people were also attacking anyone speaking negatively about Springfield. Anti 2nd amendment bots and paid off goons.

24. well, what good would it really do me to sell off my four XD pistols? They are great shooters, accurate and reliable. SA honored three, yes three of the gear-up promos to my address all within about a month and a half. I won’t buy s&w autos ever again because they are crap, always thought block was crap, barrettas are ugly as hell, hipoint may be reliable for what they are, but still ugly. at the price point for what I get I thoroughly enjoy my xd’s, and highly considering a SA 1911. If I wanted to spend twice as much I’d have a bunch of hk’ s and sigs, but I can damn near get two SA weapons at the price of one Sig or hk, and basically have a compatible item. these companies are not who we should blame and challenge, let’s start with local governments then move on up, becoming “we the people” again, and have the government fear the people as they should.

25. the real question is, who failed to sit down, analyze the cost of buying carve outs, the cost of buying politicians, the cost of the fallout, the cost of fighting the monster they unleashed and the long term cost to business as a result of damaged reputation.. weighing all THAT against the cost of just being a staunch 2A supporter and fighting?

    Who looked at THAT spreadsheet and decided to go with the “burn money and reputation to fire the boilers of industry” option?

    • SA and RR know, absolutely know, that the public is lazy, uninterested, content and gullible. The calculus is quite simple: how many people will really impact our future negatively? The answer is always the same: few. The first law of any organism is to survive at all costs. Avoid threats to growth, defeat predators, retreat or outflank your aggressor.

      When I was a software consultant, IBM was the king of the hill – but expensive, oh so expensive. With competitors uniformly having lower prices, we used to say, “No one was ever fired for buying IBM.” Same for other products. SA and RR are confident their products will overcome any minuscule burp of objection from the gun-buying public.

      The idea the corporations are people is merely a legal fiction.

      • The idea that a corporation isn’t people is bizarre. A corporation’s independent existence is the legal fiction. A corporation does not exist independently from its owners, managers, employees, and customers. A corporation’s beliefs are those of its constituent parts. Mostly the owners and managers, but employees and customers also play a part.

        My point is that while a corporation is not in fact a person, it is in fact a group of people.

        • A corporation cannot ever be “people”. It cannot live without law making the corporation exist. There is no law to make people exist.
          A corporation has no indigenous blood supply.
          A corporation cannot eat a hotdog.
          A corporation may “represent” a collage of humans, but a corporation is not people.

          Yes, corporations are often made-up of people, persons, humans, but the vast majority cannot cause the corporation to actually do anything (but they can cause their own bodies to accomplish a task).

          The feel-good dodge “A corporation is people because people work for the corporation” is a cute political campaign slogan. Corporations cannot exist outside the law of incorporation. People can live outside the law of incorporation.

          • A corporation “is people” because it is an association of people. Without corporate law, it would be an unincorporated association of people operating under a trade name. That association of people would still have the same general beliefs and motivations. A corporation is a person because of corporate law.

            • “A corporation is a person because of corporate law.”

              Precisely. A “person” because of law. “People” existed before law, and can operate whether or not a law exists. Corporations are fictional “persons” for the purpose only of performing legal actions regarding the corporation. “People” are flesh and blood (corporations are bloodless by definition) and can perform actions whether law exists or not.

              We do not disagree that corporations are considered “persons” under law; thus the fiction. We disagree that corporations are “people”, i.e. flesh and blood.

              • Your denial that corporations are made up of people implies that they have an existence independent of man except for laws passed. If not for the people who make up a corporation, a corporation would be nothing but words on paper. If you limit the rights of a corporation, you are limiting the rights of the owners of a corporation (or employees who are given broad discretion by their employers). Property rights are human rights.

                If not for a corporate charter, the organization of people that is the corporation would still exist.

              • I think I stated quite clearly that corporation represent people, but corporations themselves are not people because they corporations can do nothing without people (well, maybe shell corporations), but people can do whatever they like without corporations existing in law. Salient point is: people can exist without corporations, but corporations cannot exist (functionally) without people. Legal “person” is the best description. “People” cannot be created with the stroke of a pen.

26. Nope. This latest effort is clearly aimed at PR damage control, not 2A support. If the bill passed into law, it’s still 100% on SA and RRA, no matter how much money they spend now to defeat it.

    While I welcome any efforts they make that support 2A rights, I will never trust anything SA or RRA says or does going forward. I like my XD9, but will never buy another product from them while the current people are in charge.

    No screaming denunciations. Just not going to buy their products again. And will encourage my family and friends to do the same.

27. No.

28. I don’t trust either of them. What I don’t understand is why they would be in favor of reducing the number of outlets available for selling their product. The aim of the bill is to force FFLs out of business. None of the three FFLs I used when I lived in Illinois will continue in the gun selling business if this passes. They just don’t have enough volume to cover the fee and they can’t pass it on and be competitive. They aren’t really competitive for new stock with online retailers. Most of their gun business volume is transfers, aside from range and accessories revenue.

29. Suggesting that SA and RRA relocate out of Illinois to another State is like encouraging your cockroaches to exit your kitchen and move next door to the neighbors kitchen.

    I am a very long time supporter of SA and have even posted an article here on TTAG that very favorably mentions SA’s custom shop but they are dead to me.

    I may not have stressed that last enough because I have traced their contributions to rabidly anti-gun IL Senate President Cullerton and other anti-gun democrats for YEARS so please change the “dead to me” to FOAD.

30. RRA and SA got the politicians in office that they wanted. And then they got their carve out, screwing every other FFL dealer in the state.
    They are dead to me.
    If they get sold off or go bankrupt and get different leaders, then, and only then, would I consider buying from them.

31. They dead to me

32. This question is so full of nope… Both RRA and SA sold out the rights of Americans in their home state. If the companies can demonstrably prove that their actions after the fact stop the bill from going through than I could forgive and forget IF the CEO of both organizations step down, along with any upper management that was directly responsible for the actions of their own lobbyist organization. If the deal does go down and this law gets enacted RRA and SA need to be held accountable and each business forced to shutter… In any case the CEOs must go…

33. You mean “our civil rights “. This little punk seems eager to negotiate away my rights. I’ll remind him that there are folks out there like myself who believe it’s no longer enough to be willing to fight and die to preserve these rights. We are willing to kill for them, too.

34. Help out and file a witness as an OPPONENT.
    http://my.ilga.gov/WitnessSlip/Create/104404?committeeHearingId=14949&LegislationId=104404&CommitteeHearings-page=1&_=1494374141576

35. Has anyone found out if they made similar deals in other states?

    We all have to think of it like this. These companies are Anti-Gun gun companies. The owners are democrats that don’t believe in us. It’s just a job for them and not who they are. They have been scamming us with “Defending Legacies” and all that. I’m sure someone else will make affordable M-14 rifles and Springfield and RRA will be taught about like New Coke. Don’t upset your base.

36. Let’s say we can. What message does that send to every other gun business? You can stab us in the back as much as you want until we catch you, then you’ll be fine if you apologize?

37. When this news broke I posted that I passed on an EMP 3″ 9mm and purchased a Sig P938 instead. Very happy with it as I would have gotten one eventually regardless. Thereafter, I spent some time thinking about this SA/RRA deal and it occurred to me that one partner in this deal we haven’t given enough thought to are the retailers who are sitting on SA stock which they purchased in good faith before this debacle occurred.

    An immediate boycott of SA products hurts these retailers who are in no way responsible for any of this. Our LGS’s as well as on line retailers are innocent victims in this fiasco.

    The only fair and prudent response to this situation IMO is to wait a bit on any boycott until time is given to allow them to relieve their inventory of these products. Once they have done so they restock SA/RRA at their own peril and of their own valition. My guess is that the smart ones will not do so.

    This approach doesn’t put any more dollars in the SA/RRA coffers and relieves pressure on our true allies, the reatailers we count on every day.

    How long that will take is an unknown but 30 days should give them enough time to recover from this situation. After that they will know not to restock. All I am recommending is to support the innocent victims in this deal, our true allies, the gun retailers.

    I’ll probably take some heat from this opinion but a reasoned alternative that doesn’t hurt our allies has not been postulated to the best of my knowledge.

    • You bypass SA and RRA to buy a Sig. Funny, German based company in the European Union that bans civilian gun ownership. What a hypocrite prefers to do business with pure socialist liberal progressives…! Perfect example of firearm manufacture exempt in Germany to provide and sale firearms in the US.

      • You sound pretty dumb Brad. Those sigs are now made on amer soil. Employing Americans, and both company and workers paying American taxes. And that’s not to mention that Sig will now be arming ALL branches of military.

38. Given the history of the IMFA, that’s $800,000 Springfield and RRA have dumped out of their respective pockets to fight for gun rights in Illinois alone. If only a few thousand of that ended up on the wrong side after being channeled through lobbyists I’d say that’s pretty darn good. And if they’re willing to spend $50k each on gun rights in just Illinois each year, would they really sell out 2a supporters and their dealer base for a carve out that would save them $5k a year? Something smells like sh*t here, but I’m not sure it is what everybody is making it out to be.

    • Complying with the law probably would cost much more than just paying the licensing fee.

    • “Something smells like sh*t here, but I’m not sure it is what everybody is making it out to be.”

      Agree. We do not have the whole story. SA/RR didn’t blunder. What were they really after? Doubt we will ever know, and that is the s***t that stinks.

39. Being it is the corrupt state of IL it is very difficult to draw certain conclusions. I like both companies and I also know from work in trade organizations over the years that sometimes lobby groups do the wrong thing thinking they are doing their job and taking care of the big boys of the organization. Given all that I’m not ready to write off either one at this point nor defend either one.

40. Only thing that would save them, in my eyes, would be new ownership. S&W was forgiven after they were sold, just before bankruptcy due to the boycott, and Ruger was forgiven after Big Bill died.

    Until then they can both go out of business for all I care.

41. After a lot of thought I have decided to sell my XDs 9mm. This may save a sale SA might make, or it may not, but I can’t keep it knowing that is an endorsement of Springfield on my part. I do talk to people coming into shooting quite a lot and don’t want to have to admit, even if just to myself, that I own a gun that I won’t recommend. I won’t be in the camp of “do as I say, not as I do.”

42. Springfield will have to do a lot to earn POTG’s trust.

    My question is can they do it before HS Produkt (the company that actually makes and owns the patents on the XD) can and decides to get out of their licensing agreement with Springfield. Does Springfield have any other products that are at least a little unique?

43. They sold us down the river to line their own pockets. Eff them. They can burn in hell.

44. One possible way to look at this is to ask, “what would Bloomberg want me to do?”, and then do the opposite.
    – Would Bloomberg want raise fees to price gun shops out of business? Yes.
    – Would he be happy to skim some money from gun corporations to do this? Yes.
    – Would he be happy for that to be exposed and become well known? No.
    – Would he be happy if some gun corporations started spending money opposing an anti-gun bill? No.
    – Would he be happy for those corporations to lose money or go out of business? Yes.
    – Would he be happy that gun owners and manufacturers increase fighting and verbally attacking each other? Yes
    There are some libertarian/conservative folks who not only were opposed to Trump in the primaries (I am one), but continued to oppose him in the general election (I supported him), and even now make Pelosi and Schumer happy by extreme criticism of Trump. We are seeing that same phenomenon on this thread.

45. If it looks like a duck, water rolls off its back, quacks like a duck, swims in water with web feet, what is it?

    All the bs from SA and RRA does not change the ducks heritage. Soooooo, goodbye Ruger S&W SA and RRA.

46. Question. The first version of the bill exempted manufacturers. The second version of the bill exempted specific manufacturer FFL license types – specifically 06, 07 and 10. The “carve out” seems to benefit all FFL’s with those license types, so I’m not sure exactly how SAI and RRA benefit from the amendments, when they should have been exempted from the get go.

    • Uuuhhhhhmmmm, like, you know, MANUFACTURER FFL carve-out? How many FFL holders qualify as a manufacturer?

      The whole piece of legislation makes no sense, except to restrict sales of guns. We still do not know what SA and DD were really trying to do. I do not ascribe incompetence (corporate officers) to what is easily explained as unscrupulous intent.

47. Truth about guns is now my go to. And am leaving another site “firearms U.S.A.”, no that’s not it. Guns U.S.A., no, America. Found it absolutely disgusting that Paul censored comments, 3 of mine to be correct, bringing up the fact that Springfield Armory had backed this bill until the public caught on. Then midstep changed and started spreading awareness. Shame on Springfield and Rock River. Neither will get a penny more from me. But for GA website to block comments voicing the truth, that is on Hillary and Obama’s level. It’s good to see people unwilling to drop their morals and continue to speak the truth. Thank you for being an honest and truthful site.

48. As a gun generation 2.0 guy I don’t have any money invested in these two arms companies. And the money I’ve saved to purchase guns will not go to Rock River or Springfield Armory.

    If, and if it comes to it, any Firearms industry company who cuts a deal with an anti-liberty state government, Illinois, California, New Jersey, etc., that company should be given a DEATH SENTENCE.

    You guys need to learn about Moral Capitalism.

49. What? You don’t believe them?!?! Lol me either. This is the response I got from them. There is zero believability, they are against it now because they got caught. It’s like the democrates and the Iraq war, They voted for it before they voted against it.
    They are worse than that guy on tv from the 90s, Steve Eurkle, at least he asked did I do that?
    These shiester refuse and offering that they were complacent.i guess the higher ups don’t want to be terminated so refuse to accept cop-ability. Plain and simple.
    This was the repose I got from them.

    Thanks for the message. I understand your concerns, but I’m hoping this latest statement will clear up some of your questions regarding IFMA, particularly as it relates to us terminating our Executive Director/lobbyist:

    http://blog.springfield-armory.com/springfield-armory-statement-regarding-gun-dealer-licensing-act-sb1657-0

    I can assure you that we at Springfield Armory are wholeheartedly against this bill, and we have never been knowingly in support of anything anti-Second Amendment. Our family has built our whole life around the Second Amendment, so doing anything that would endanger that right is just not what we stand for as a brand.

    I would also be happy to discuss over the phone if you prefer at (309) 944-8994.

    Thanks again and I hope you have a great day.

    Sincerely,

    Stefany

50. I know for a fact that springfield and Rock River are in fact quality for what they done here in Illinois, the company was formed by Springfield Armory and Rock River , the only lobbyist day hired was under their instruction.

51. I haven’t and still don’t believe a single word stated or written by anyone in mgmt at SA or RRA.(Since the SB1657 news was broken to us) As far as I’m concerned, neither company even exists to me. Easy peezee!!!! If you still love em and want to buy their wares, good on ya. I’m fine with that, after all, it’s your money, not mine.

    I am concentrating my efforts on stopping this bill. Call your rep, write your rep, and do the same with Gov. Rauner.
    Fill out your witness slips. Spread the word to every Pro2A person you know. We need to remain very PROACTIVE and let our reps and our governor know how we feel. Remember friends, be clear, be concise, but most of all, be courteous. That goes a long way in making sure your voice is heard. No one wants to read or hear an angry person ranting.

52. I’m from the right coast, but I see the craziness coming across the country from the left coast. Why would anyone want to starve the goose that feeds them? I don’t understand the left. Thanks

53. I’m wondering why nobody is saying a thing anymore. All quiet on all fronts. Wonder if it’s quiet because​ everyone has been paid to shut their mouths.

    • We are all waiting for an announcement for the date this comes up in the Illinois House. Meanwhile, call Governor Rauner and tell him to veto this POS if/when it gets to his desk. Remind him that he doesn’t just represent the gangbanging thugs, welfare criminals and Liberal Terrorists™ That vote D in Chicago, but first and foremost, he represents those that voted for him statewide.

54. I would say for everyone to not do business with either company and chalk them up as a loss. Shift your 2nd Amendment needs elsewhere. A gun company advocating for gun control only translates into trying knock out competition to control more of the market with their own pockets. They are conducting devious and dirty business selling out consumer’s Constitutional Rights for $$$.

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