“Socialism is basically making the whole country a prison. In a prison, everyone is equal. They get the same cell, same food; they get the same health care, and only the government employees have guns.” – Justin Moon in Poconos gunmaker’s vision: an AR-15 for every American [via philly.com]

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

72 COMMENTS

  1. Only people who have lived under socialism realize why socialists need to be hunted like vermin.

  3. I don’t remember who said: Socialism proponents say that the system will bring everyone up. In reality, it brings (almost) everyone down.

  5. I don’t negotiate with the left anymore, we are so far apart ideologically they will not convince me to agree with them.

    when the left says the want to have a “conversation” about anything, It means they want to talk about the terms of your complete and unconditional surrender.

  6. Oh please stop with can’t have government run medical care because it is socialist. 99% of Americans are “infrastructure socialists”, and medical care is far closer to infrastructure than most ‘products’ we use. It is NOT portable like a can of soda. Much like schools roads and electricity, it is dictated by where you live than anything else.

  7. Government run healthcare will suck like every other government run service. They can’t manage to run healthcare for a small number compared to the overall population for veterans so what makes anyone think they will do better for everyone. The only thing Obamacare did for my family is quadruple costs. 3.75x for insurance, 8x for copays, 6x for Rx drugs.

  9. Parents need to teach their children that “Kill a commie for mommy” isn’t just a rhyme, its a way of life.

  10. Most people dont realize who Moon is and that his company is run by the Unification ‘church’

  11. Binder – Having government run, or even have any hand in any market is bad, not because it is socialist but because it moves the critical price information far away from the consumers and because decision made by politicians are influenced by politics more than economic science. Popularity is not a reliable measure of the wisdom of any policy. If 99% of Americans are “infrastructure socialist”, which I think is a bit of an exaggeration, then 99% of Americans are ignorant an wrong about economics.

  12. Gerard – Sun Myung Moon has been dead for five years, but I also doubt that many under 50 years old know who he was.

  14. Oh please stop with can’t have government run medical care because it is socialist.

    You’re wasting your time, here. The opposite of Socialism isn’t always freedom; throughout most of human history it has been Oligarchy. The TTAG readeship will gladly wear chains, as long as they can be convinced that their slavery was the result of “free-market capitalism”.

    Fred Reed is a former Marine who returned from Vietnam with “a Purple Heart and more shrapnel in my eyes than I really wanted”, used to write for Soldier of Fortune, has been consistently against gun-owner control, and has been living in Mexico for the pat 15 or so years, which gives him an outsider’s perspective.

    But since has also written in favor of socialized medicine, I’m sure the TTAG readership will dismiss him as some type of pinko Communist.

    Health Care Hither and Yon: An Invitation to Scream about Socialism

    posted on December 8, 2016 by Fred Reed

    Almost all advanced countries, if not all, have national medical care. It is telling that in the debate over Obamacare, few looked at systems in other countries to see how well what worked. The reason seems to have been a mixture of the classic American arrogance and lack of interest in anything beyond the borders. Characteristically, discussion usually turned on the evils of socialism – for some reason, Europe is thought to be socialist – and who was going to make money.

    The results are what one would expect. Study after study has shown that American health care is of poor quality compared with that of other First World nations, and way more expensive.

    Read the rest at https://fredoneverything.org/health-care-hither-and-yonan-invitation-to-scream-about-socialism/ . And then go read his other articles.

    It’s really sad that “our” side continues to try to link gun-owner rights to other issues. I grew up in the Cold War Era, so I understand the power of associating opposing viewpoints to Socialism; because it automatically brought to mind images of the USSR. But for anyone under 30 or 40 years old, it probably makes the speaker sound like an out-of touch dinosaur a worst, and more likely a lunatic.

  15. Thanks, wasnt aware he was dead, you’re also correct most people dont remember the rise if the Unification ‘church’ in the USA. The UC owned property in MA, my home state. Kahr makes good firearms but their ties to the Unification church keep me from buying them.

  16. So you actually paid for you own before the AHCA, Or was it a ‘benefit’ from your employer? You do know that the AHCA is NOT government ran heath care, it is just a set of guidelines for PRIVATE insurance companies so that they provide a consistent product. Yes there are insentives for people to get the coverage, but the exact same thing is going on employer provided coverage anyway.

    As for the high cost of American health issurance, well you think that the “market” works on non-portable goods. Ha ha ha ha ha……

  17. Wow… I think we hit a record before ‘muh roads came up. Infrastructure is not socialism.

    Go look at Venezuela for what happens when the government decides they want to nationalize entire industries…

    As for “industrialized nation” healthcare being “better”… Bullshit. Socialized healthcare puts the same priority on worthless drug addicts as it does on people who actually benefit society. Funny how nobody flies to Europe to get cutting edge treatments for diseases. The reality is that Eurocommie “healthcare” is only better when you include the patient outcomes for human vermin who aren’t worth the oxygen they consume, much less the medicine used to keep them alive.

    We need to get rid of all government cash payments and insurance schemes to individuals. No medicare, medicaid, social security, etc… it is not the government’s job to take care of you at other people’s expense.

  18. “In a prison, everyone is equal.” – said no one who’s ever been to prison.

    The struggle (experienced by everyone) is augmented by proximity and lack of Societal Agreement.

  20. So you actually paid for you own before the AHCA, Or was it a ‘benefit’ from your employer? You do know that the AHCA is NOT government ran heath care, it is just a set of guidelines for PRIVATE insurance companies so that they provide a consistent product. Yes there are insentives for people to get the coverage, but the exact same thing is going on employer provided coverage anyway.

    As for the high cost of American health issurance, well you think that the “market” works on non-portable goods. Ha ha ha ha ha……

    And yes, we are all infrastructure socialists, becouse it works. One electric network is better than a mess of them. You want private roads? Airports, fire departments, or police?

  21. I’d buy a Kahr. Where’s your proof Justin Moon is run/ controlled by the Unification “church”?!? More American than oh… pretty much every democrat.

  22. Binder… again jackass… Infrastructure is NOT socialism. Socialism is the government taking by force shit from people who earned it and giving it to people who have not.

  23. Seeing as socialism was brought up:
    “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.” — Karl Marx

    Back to the point, we need to separate Gun-Owners Rights from the right-wing package. Gun-Owners Rights should include all political, and economic opinions. We need to stay focused on the issue of Gun-Owners Rights.

    To do otherwise makes us a very small tent position. A tent where one needs to not only be concerned with Gun-Owners Rights; but also with a complete, tangentially associated, package that includes a number of economic and social issues. We need a a big tent that focuses on Gun-Owners Rights and leaves as many other issues as possible at the door.

  26. Back atcha’ Joe R.

    “Crazy” ? I was crazy once, they locked me in a round room and fed me worms.

  28. Robert Crawford

    You go compromise with the commie vermin, let me know how that works out for you. The reality is that socialists and marxists don’t respect individual rights. Expecting them to agree is pants on head retarded.

  29. Back atcha’ Joe R.

    “Crazy” ? I was crazy once, they locked me in a round room and fed me worms.

  30. You are correct about there being problems in the American health care system, BUT, comparisons to other countries is slightly off-base. If you need a CT scan or other high-tech procedure here in the USA, you will get one, almost immediately.
    Our neighbor to the north, which has excellent medical staff, routinely rations CT scans and other high-tech procedures, as these machines and procedures are far less available due to cost considerations. You might have to wait 3 months for the same CT scan in Canada. A number of years ago, Canadian hospitals were “caught” providing CT scans for veterinarians’ animals, while humans were on “waiting lists” for use of the machines. You see, veterinarians paid “cash up front” for use of the machines.
    A “dirty little secret” of Canadian health care, is that some patients are referred to American border-city hospitals for treatment if they squawk loud enough. In addition, Canadian politicians and “movers and shakers” routinely come to the United States for medical treatment.
    Look at Great Britain’s’ “National Health Service” which routinely rations health care as well as exacting “death sentences” on humans because of cost. Recently, a British “subject” (baby) was refused potentially life-saving treatment not only in Great Britain, but also in the United States. The parents had the money to pay for the treatment here in the United States, but Britain’s “National Health Service” would not allow the baby to leave. What kind of “health-care” is that?
    Socialized health care is fine for cuts, scrapes, and bruises, but when it comes to high-tech procedures, there are always cost considerations. Anyone can see that government-imposed “solutions” almost never work.
    It is interesting to note, that in Canada, Great Britain, and other “socialized medicine” countries, private supplemental health insurance is necessary in order to receive decent medical treatment.
    The problem is not “health care”, but health INSURANCE which artificially masks the true costs of “health care”.
    Going back to a “fee for services” like in the pre-HMO days of medicine would be an improvement as there would be competition for health care services.
    Two good examples of successful “fee for services” medicine are plastic surgery and laser refractive surgery (eyes). Both plastic surgeons and ophthalmologists offer discounts for their procedures. In fact, prices for these procedures are constantly dropping.
    A good distinction can be made between HMOs and automobile insurance.
    Automobile insurance pays for accidents and damage to vehicles, nothing more. If automobile insurance were run like HMOs, they would pay for vehicle maintenance,oil-changes and the like.
    Yes, the American health-care system needs improvement, but socialized medicine is not the right approach.

  31. “the ultimate Deep State goal is worldwide Totalitarianism/Socialism but they need to do a few things first:

    1.Take away our guns so we can’t resist their abuse.
    2.Destroy the American economy to get us to agree to Socialism.
    3. Destroy the family unit/institution.”

    Tweet by James Perloff

  32. “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.” — Karl Marx

    Corporations prefer unarmed workers. They used to settle labor disputes differently back in the good old days.

  33. “Routinely rations health care as well as exacting “death sentences” on humans because of cost.”

    Another person who thinks that society should pay whatever is cost to keep one person alive while 100 more could be save for cheaper. Get over it, we always calculate cost vs lives saved. The amount of safety built into a airplane is a calculation of cost vs lives saved. Your private insurance already will let you die if it costs too much. Your lack of funds will let you die if it costs too much. Hate to tell you this, but human life does have a price. And with out system, it cost a LOT more that most places.

    Now I do agree that building in financial incentives to get the best performance for the price is something worth looking at, but the problem is out current system works the opposite way. The medical world makes more money as the costs go up (at least insurance does as long as they can keep getting the premiums)

  34. If given a choice between a society with

    1) unrestricted gun rights and socialized medicine, or

    2) gun-owner control and a purely free-market capitalist health care system

    most of the TTAG readership would vote for # 2.

  35. All of you in favor of socialized healthcare, who point to the fantastic socialist Euro trash examples of how health care should be run, would do well to research how we, as in the USA, actually pays for Europe to have such healthcare.

  36. “Only people who have lived under socialism realize why socialists need to be hunted like vermin.” -pwrserge

    That’s rich from a guy using a Dr. Evil avatar and who pushes for communist North Korea style government control over health care. Priceless.

  37. Gun Owners of America has been sounding ALARM about ” Fix-NICS ” … and Republicans are now pushing it too. — Adding it to the must pass spending bill to be passed BEFORE EASTER break ! …….. Many here and elsewhere said .. ‘ its not that bad ‘ …. we now know , it IS BAD – Very Bad. ……. Call your Reps. —> or become New Jersey. 202-224-3121.
    https://gunowners.org/alert031518.htm

    Also , we must push back on Anti’s ‘ Fear Porn ‘……. they use FEAR for gun control , while at the same time saying all gun owners are BAD ..’ for giving in to ‘ unreasonable FEAR ‘ of crime or social unrest ” ….. call ‘ EM Out …. Go on Offense.

  38. Binder… again jackass… Infrastructure is NOT socialism. Socialism is the government taking by force shit from people who earned it and giving it to people who have not.

    Flat out hand outs are “Socialism”, I agree with you. Providing government run services or regulated monopolies that help society economically, well, that is Infrastructure. Unless someone does not like it, then they slap on the label “Socialism”. A lot of what people call Socialism is just Infrastructure.

    Schools -> Socialism or Infrastructure?
    Medical Care-> Socialism or Infrastructure?
    Roads -> Socialism or Infrastructure?
    Fire Department -> Socialism or Infrastructure?

  39. Pwrserge replied to me with “Robert Crawford

    You go compromise with the commie vermin, let me know how that works out for you.”

    Here is the problem, you insult and attempt to exile from the Gun-Owners Rights people who, in this issue, are on you side.

    I do understand that many consider those who find the Salt-Water school of economics more sustainable than the Fresh-Water model to be, as you put it, “pants on head retarded.” However, this is a issue that should be separated from Gun-Owners Rights.

    We need to focus on Gun-Owners Rights. We should not be exiling, from our community anyone who is not in lockstep with the daily marching orders. As we loose Gun-Owners Rights we should not be surprised at how many are on the other side of the imaginary fence when it is the Gun-Owners Rights community that threw them over the fence for some minor, at best tangentially related, deviation from the un-necessarily all-inclusive doctrine.

    I understand the attraction of small tent. In a small tent we can be sure of only meeting people who are in 100% agreement, thus validating our own positions. However, that is not a, long term, winning place to be. I get it, anyone that is not in 100% agreement on every issue, from national Financial and Fiscal policy to Health Care are, again to quote, “socialists and marxists.” However, if that is your standard, and the Gun-Owners Rights communities standard, 100% in or 100% out, the Gun-Owners Rights community is going to be increasingly marginalized into irrelevancy.

    Winning positions have big tents. The doors need to be open and wide. We, the Gun-Owners Rights community need to be welcoming, not surly and prone to exiling those who would gladly ally with us on the issue of Gun-Owners Rights.

  40. @Crawford…if pwrserge appears to be full of crap, it is because he is. He pretends to represent gun owners rights, yet at that same time has repeatedly called for full government control over YOUR health care decisions, to the point of forcing medical procedures YOU may not want. I’ve seen him online in other forums posting over the top statements like threatening to beat up women’s husbands who disagree with him….if he was a paid to post profile whose job it is to make gun owner look bad online, it would not surprise me.

  42. Robert Crawford: I concur that gun rights and economic policy are not and need not be closely related. Someone who advocates for socialized medicine can sincerely advocate for self defense rights. I don’t think both combinations are equally consistent philosophically though.

  43. binder

    Nobody is saying society should pay whatever it takes. We’re saying that the PERSON should pay whatever it takes. The problem is that socialized healthcare removes that option. A person is no longer allowed to purchase the healthcare they feel they need because it is rationed out by the government. This leads to the government deciding if people live or die.

  44. “Socialism is basically making the whole country a prison,” he said. “In a prison, everyone is equal. They get the same cell, same food; they get the same health care, and only the government employees have guns.”

    —–Justin Moon

    This guy is an American hero. Enough said.

  45. Vic, thank you for your reply. I do happen to think that one can advocates for socialized medicine can sincerely advocate for self defense rights. Further, that it can be done in a manner that expresses an equally consistent philosophy. I even started to express how that can be.

    Then I realized that, in doing so, I was falling to the trap that I seek to avoid. These are side-issues that are best dealt with elsewhere. Certainly this, very transient, forum is not the place. It is the place to come together, in agreement on the issue of Gun-Owners Rights.

    That is the place where we can, and should (and by the looks of it, do) come to agreement.

  46. pg2

    You REALLY need to get your head examined. If you think that requiring you not to be a Typhoid Marry is somehow an infringement of your rights… Sucks to be you. You do not have a “right” to murder thousands of people because you’re an ignorant luddite. The way I see it, anybody who refuses a vaccination and then causes an outbreak that kills people needs to be tried for murder.

  47. Obamacare was a bad bill originally written by Republicans so that employers could get out from under paying medical care(or a large percentage) for their employees. The tweaks made to cover the poor was the part that made it more expensive, but the government was on the hook for them anyway.

    You have to follow the money to figure out who profits, and you will find that employers will not offer medical plans anymore to new hires.

  48. Robert Crawford

    The problem is that collectivists of any sort cannot genuinely support an individualist right like gun ownership. At best, they can ape the argument. Why? The 2nd amendment exist to prevent exactly the sort of society the collectivists would enact. Pulling them into your “tent” is either a fantasy or an outright delusion.

  49. To quote:
    “The problem is that collectivists of any sort cannot genuinely support an individualist right like gun ownership.”

    “of any sort” So, as I see it, the claim is that if there is even a single point that a person thinks could be done better by working with another person, then they, “cannot genuinely support an individualist right like gun ownership.”

    I was tempted to comment. However, your position does not need commentary. It only needs examination.

  50. The so called “Jewish”, self described socialist, Bernie Sanders does support a prison for all Americans so we all become the same. And if you disagree him, his supporters will murder you at the baseball field you play in, or at work, or at home.

  51. The problem is that collectivists of any sort cannot genuinely support an individualist right like gun ownership.

    Do you support “corporate personhood”; that corporations are legal persons under the the law with rights? If so, you are a ****in’ collectivist. Rationalize it however you want, if it helps you sleep at night.

    I’d bet that 99% of the TTAG readership fits into that category.

  53. “So you actually paid for you own before the AHCA…”

    Actually I did, for years and years including after getting married. I paid for my own insurance (and that of my wife) until two years ago. I’ve also lived for a few years outside the US, including under socialist medicine which is why I can tell you the following with utmost confidence.

    First the AHCA guidelines are asinine and drive up prices by forcing you to buy things that you don’t want or need. In my county we have plenty of doctors, we’re lucky in that regard, none of whom (outside the hospital) now take the ACA compliant insurance. On top of that three years ago there were 147 plans available in my area. The wife and I were both covered for about $650/month (which is way higher than we had paid before the ACA). Last year there were about 103 plans available, this year 41. This year the cheapest was $789/person ($1578/month). If I go back to pre-ACA prices then for just myself the price, for the best insurance money could buy for me at that time was about $239/month.

    Further, you can expect to see a lot of smaller and rural hospitals and clinics close, file for bankruptcy or “reorganize” this year or next. See, it used to be that when the truly indigent came to the hospital or the doctor they healthcare provider filed paperwork and was reimbursed by the feds. The law said they couldn’t turn away the poor person and so the government covered the cost of their care. That’s no longer true as of the 1st of this year. The folks that wrote the ACA assumed 99%-100% coverage under the ACA so there no longer is a reimbursement for caring for the indigent but the law still says they can’t turn that person away. So now the health care provider just has to eat the cost.

    Further yet, socialized medicine in other countries screws us here in the US and is often based on threats of a practice known as “patent busting”. This is why serge notes people come here for cutting edge and go “over there” for cheap meds. It basically works like this (numbers picked for simplicity):

    A US company creates a new drug. After getting it through R&D, FDA testing etc, building in BS lawsuit price coverage and everything else they need $1/pill to make the drug profitable. That’s too expensive for a socialist country to put into their socialized system so they tell the drug company “Screw you, we’ll give you $0.25/pill”. and the company has no choice but to sell that drug at a $0.75/pill loss in socialist countries and make up the losses here. The reason is, again, patent busting. These socialist countries generally have decent chemical industries and if they don’t India does. The patent on file for the drug tells them how to make it so the original manufacturer either sells it at the demanded price or the other countries “bust” the patent, make the drug and the drug company loses $1/pill instead of $0.75/pill and they lose it in EVERY socialist country.

    So socialist countries have the pharmaceutical companies over a barrel on drug prices and force them to sell them at a loss while you and I back here in the US pick up the tab. Nice little racket huh?

    I could go on but it would be a book. Really, all you need to know about government run healthcare or situations where the government heavily puts its thumb on the scale is to look at all the really nice new hospitals being built on Indian Reservations. The U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs sure builds ’em nice don’t they!?

  55. pg2 The reality remains that peer reviewed studies indisputably document that schools disproportionately discipline black students.

    “Research from the 1970s to the present has documented that Black students are significantly more likely than White students are to experience school discipline.”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2678799/

    Your childish and silly posts wont change this racist reality.

    Likewise the reality remains that peer reviewed studies indisputably document that police disproportionately shoot unarmed black folks

    “The results provide evidence of a significant bias in the killing of unarmed black Americans relative to unarmed white Americans…”
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854

    Keep me updated as to weather you concoct some new nonsense that magically changes this racist reality… : D

    • Is this a troll-bot post? I never made these statements, and these statements don’t even exist on this forum. Or is it pweserge-troll, getting confused on which profiles to use and which forums he’s paid to troll on?

  56. The $0.75 is the cost of everything outside the incremental cost of making one more dose. The incremental cost must be less than $0.25 else the copycats wouldn’t try. Americans pay the R&D costs for socialist countries.

  57. @pwrserge, always entertaining you pretend to champion gun rights while supporting FULL government control over other aspects of our lives. You’re a troll, and not a very good one. Threaten to beat up any women’s husbands who disagree with you lately? If someone wanted to make gun owners look ignorant and irrationally aggressive online, they couldn’t come up with a better profile than yourself to accomplish that.

  58. As Joe R. alluded to above, there’s no presumed equality in prison. There, the biggest, toughest guy, or the guy with the most connections rules, and there’s no equalizer for the smaller, weaker inmate.

    So in a backhanded sort of way, the “equality” of prison would be very much like a disarmed populace. The crims would rule because they don’t care about laws, and would have the strength and/or numbers to intimidate, injure or kill from a wide selection of unarmed victims.

  59. The Unification ‘church’ was a family run organization. They diversified a lot of their assets one if which was Kahr firearms. Justin Moon is a ‘moonie’. He’s a lot of other things, some positive. But his family ties are a matter of record.

  60. well, the ability to acquire an ar.
    back when there were payphones everywhere, we’d use the moonies corporate card digits (among others) published for all in the yipster times for all of our calls.
    employers should be required to supply some base health insurance. don’t like lines? get to work.

  61. “Socialism is basically making the whole country a prison. In a prison, everyone is equal. They get the same cell, same food; they get the same health care, and only the government employees have guns.”
    Finally, a statement I can somewhat agree with.
    Take it one step further with Animal Farm.
    All animals are equal, just some animals are more equal than others.

  62. Works in Australia, Canada, and most of the rest of the free world. Propaganda statments like this show that Americans seem to hate each other deep down and dont want their brothers and sisters to succeed – just themselves. Just saying…

  63. As the very happy owner of an Auto Ordnance 1911, I can tell you Mr. Moon knows how to make a product that is excellent value, and made by someone who truly appreciates the 2A. If I didn’t live in MA, I can guarantee you one of those Thompson AR’s would soon be joining it.

  64. CMAC, Im glad your happy with your auto ordinance 1911. I dont question the quality of auto ordinance only the philosophy of its owner.

  65. If this survival by thuggery capitalism is freedom, I’ll take the prison where everybody at least gets to eat and gets an education, thank you.

  66. FromA Socialist…’yes its working just fine in Venezuela…they’re one step away from resorting to canibalism.

  68. FromASocialist

    Ah… the wonderful socialized state of Canada… which has fewer MRI machines than most US states with a fraction of the population.

  69. FromASocialist i am australian and our health care system certainly does not work for me. i pay for treatment of everyone else through my tax dollars and refuse the sickcare system for most everything. i treat myself for most things and end up sick less than many do too.

    PWSerge if you think vaccines are that great then think about this. A) they confer at best a temporary immunity. B) they are loaded with toxins that if you gave those same toxins to your kids in any amount you would be charged with child abuse or worse. C) they have killed many thousands and injured many hundreds of thousands of recipients of them which tends to get covered up most of the time (think of the rising rates of mental illness (there are several neurotoxins in them) caused many cases of cancer even in kids (there are also several known carcinogens in them) and cause many allergies that were almost unheard of before they were used. D) they are injected into your system bypassing about 90% of your immune system and in doing so dont teach your immune system to fight jack shit. E) look at the time line of santitation coming into different countries and look at the disease rates of the diseases these vaccines are supposed to help….. that timeline matches the vaccines come a few years later…. therefore the vaccines have done jack shit. F) most of the new cases of these diseases in western countries tend to be among the highly vaccinated not those that refuse to vaccinate. G) for a month after getting a vaccine you should be in quarantine yourself as you are indeed more infectious to those around you than if you had gotten the vaccine itself. you have been sold a damn lie….. stats lie and so do salesmen and politicians. you want to geta vaccine in me you better bring a lot of guns because the one trying to give me the vaccine will get the whole bottle of vaccine all to themselves

    • Don’t expect a rational or even honest attempt of a reponse the pwrserge profile. He’s a troll, a pretender, a fake. His job is to make gun owners look ignorant, irrational and angry online.

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