“Jesus Campos, a security guard at the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino (above), was shot by Paddock six minutes before he began shooting into a crowd of 22,000 people enjoying the country music festival down below, Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Sheriff Joe Lombardo said in a news conference Monday evening.” The foxnews.com report radically changes the timeline for the Las Vegas spree killing . . .
Mandalay Bay Hotel security knew about the shooter for six minutes before he started shooting. We know Stephen Paddock fired on the crowd for ten minutes. What was the Mandalay Bay hotel’s armed security doing during those 16 minutes?
Nothing. TTAG has learned that the Mandalay Bay hotel — and other large Las Vegas hotels — have a standard policy for responding to shots fired — wait for the police.
So there were good guys with guns within potential striking distance of the killer who did not strike.
In fact, at least 21 minutes expired from the moment Stephen Paddock opened fire on the Mandalay Bay unarmed security guard until the Las Vegas SWAT team’s arrival. And then another hour before the team made entry.
There may have been police officers on scene when Mr. Campos reported he was attacked. If so, they too were waiting for SWAT to arrive. If so, where were they waiting? It’s possible they were staging outside Paddock’s suite as he was firing.
If it’s like every other large hotel and casino in Las Vegas, the Mandalay Bay has security video of the lobby, elevators and 32nd floor hallway. Any such footage would provide a more complete picture of events leading up to and during Paddock’s attack on the crowd.
That video would help to answer the critical question: could Stephen Paddock have been stopped before opening fire or interrupted during his killing spree, preventing or minimizing the loss of life?
So as usual:
When seconds count, the cops are minutes away.
That of course didn’t stop them from claiming to have stopped the shooter, even though he was apparently dead before they got there.
Media and Anti’s narrative: Guns won’t save you, police will.
Reality: Even with Cops on scene… “Gotta wait for SWAT.”
Even when SWAT and Police are available, they wait for an hour or longer to breech mass shooters. There needs to be a reforendum on police in these situations. If the pigs can’t or won’t do their job, then why the hell are taxpayers money going to all those nice AR-15’s in squad cars now and why are we even bothering paying for SWAT teams ballistic vests, shields, and machine guns if they’re not going to do what they are PAID TO DO?
Because it’s loads of fun to role play John Rambo, Seal Team 0, etc?
“So there were good guys with guns within potential striking distance of the killer who did not strike.”
While the author was referring to the hotel’s security guards, that sentence applies equally to police.
We have to update that mantra, “When seconds count, the police are minutes away.” to account for the fact that it will take police upwards of an hour to actually “go in” after they arrive. Perhaps we can update it to something like, “When seconds count, police will end the attack an hour later.”
So what tipped off security to be outside his room 6 minutes or more before the mass shooting started? If security was there before he started firing on the crowd, no gunfire sound or fire alarms from smoke, why were they there in the first place?
I believe I heard on one of the press conferences that Campos went up there in a response to an alarm going off. (Windows being broken possibly)
Not likely. The video from the cab driver shows when the gun fire first started and she even looked up at the Madalay Bay hotel and there were NO WINDOWS BROKEN, Besides, in that video, the shooting started farther away. This whole story coming from “government” is absolutely BS!!!!
Why yes… yes he could have. Had Security returned fire after taking a hit the nut bag probably would’ve offed himself, not knowing exactly what was going on he may have thought that more guards or cops were on the way. The police could’ve went in and done their damn job rather than cowering in the hallway or wherever as he fired into the crowd, would they have taken casualties? Hell yes urban fighting sucks there are always casualties but better it be someone trained and paid to deal with such situations than 559+ people in the crowd below. Instead we get this pansy assed response policy of sit by let people die while we wait on SWAT to get their asses tactically in gear and ride like operators in their operator van to operate operationally in operations of operator tempo.
I can’t remember the exact details but there was a slasher incident in NYC awhile back where a guy was practically gutted and the fuzz cowered behind subway plexiglass and watched it happen. After getting out of the hospital the dude sued the PD for inaction and the court ruling basically said that cops can’t be expected to risk their lives to save others.
There’s a difference. Government police forces work the government, not the citizen. Their only obligation is to protect – and provide revenue for – the government.
The hotel’s security forces are part of the package they are selling. Unless the hotel specifies to customers that hotel security may stand idly by instead of protecting them, not protecting the customers enters the realm of breach of contract.
re: great unknown
Apply that same logic to hotel security. Their job is to protect the bottom line of their employer, not rush into danger.
The bottom line of the hotel is in alignment with the guests not getting slaughtered.
Re: Orcon
The government makes no guarantees – other than if you violate their laws or fail to pay your taxes, the police are coming after you. OTOH, when you check into a hotel, there is an implicit contract – unless you are told otherwise explicitly – that hotel security will protect you, the customer. Whatever security and hotel management actually agree between themselves, understood contracts are quite powerful in law.
Should be fascinating lawsuits coming up if this story is true.
That’s what I disagree with. You’re a f*cking cop!!! Your job is to protect and serve the good people under your jurisdiction now sometimes that may involve taking a bullet or giving your life but that comes with the badge. You can be shot at, you can be shot, you can be killed but your job is to make sure you protect the lives of the citizens you serve. They should be held accountable for each and every death that occurred while they sat wherever they were in the hotel with their thumb up their donut expulsion chute waiting for SWAT to arrive. 70 minutes is 60 minutes too long to respond to that kind of situation.
@Weskywet: its more like f*cked cop that f*cking cop… Did you ever hear about BLM and such? Unlike few decades away, now the cops are easy victims of activists and the danger tied to their job is rather from the politically correct activists than the criminals. The cop can be shot or stabbed and he would recover and work again. And he can be sued, badged racist and never find any decent job and food for his family ever again, because his superiors will be affraid to back him and will easily sacrifice him for their own careers.
My brother in law rented a trailer house. One night the woman came screaming to his house( lived next door) called cops , she reported he had bow and arrows, cops was all cluster fcked setting up perimeters, calling SWAT, my bro n law got tired of it all, kicked the door n and took the bow away..Police have protocol
Unfortunately not just the POPO. EMS/Fire is supposed to stage (stay) outside of the “hot zone” if there is fire until the POPO have “secured” the area. These multilevel plans could take hours to get all the BS set up. In the meantime, the wounded/injured are supposed to just wait (don’t bleed on the pavement please).
“Supposedly” the lesson of Columbine was that it is essential to make immediate entry by the 1st group/team that could be thrown together. This kind of happened at Sandy Hook. But as professional conferences/paid seminars have multiplied with the swamp wisdom of DC spreading, the coordination and multilevel and Incident Command etc etc etc the processes has become the achievement/goal (why are we here?).
That is why cops more often shoot unarmed suspects, because they are less of a threat. The only time they get into a “gunfight” is if a shooter opens fire on them, and then innocent bystanders usually get hit, and after hundreds of rounds are fired they MIGHT subdue the perp! It is also why they don’t want the public armed, because most gun holders will take the perp out IMMEDIATELY, without collateral damage, and that makes the cops look bad (which they are).
Although I totally disagree with Kaepernut and the NFL protest, because disrespect for the nation as a whole and the people is wrong, I don’t totally disagree with the part about out of control cops. There seem to be far more “questionable” assaults by law enforcement than not! Law enforcement spend their entire working existence enforcing ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL administrative/prohibitive “laws”, NOT protecting and serving the people!
Well, there goes the narative. The commies really stepped in it this time. The blowback will be hilarious to watch.
So we were told he offed himself after the hotel security knocks on his door, were further told they only knew which door to knock on because the gunsmoke set off the fire alarms… after several minutes of in restrained carnage…
This… is shaping up to be a total fuster cluck and the only consolation I’m feeling here is the Dems will end up with egg on their faces… again.
If by egg on their faces you mean a gun control narrative, then yes.
So I guess even if the shooter had a suppressor, it still wouldn’t have mattered it caused the smoke alarms to go off because police and hotel security already knew which room he was in.
ALRIGHT, LET’S SPAM PAUL RYAN’S EMAIL AND PHONES AND TELL HIM SHARE IS BACK ON THE MENU!
I hope you’re right, Serge.
But I’ll bet you a nickel that the truth of what happened has already ceased to matter to the process of increasing regulation; as far as the antis are concerned this incident has already served its purpose.
“Well, there goes the narative. The commies really stepped in it this time.”
Commies were involved? from? Cuba?
pwrserge thinks everyone is a commie. Rumor has it that he has a shrine to Senator McCarthy in his residence.
Hint for fools – Joe McCarthy was RIGHT. That the commie pinko progtards of the Dem party didn’t like his attention was, and is, not surprising.
If you can read, find the NSA and KGB archives. Start with the Verona Papers.
Senator McCarthy was a great man. He called out the left for what it was proven to be after the fall of the Soviet Union when classified KGB documents were released. A radical marxist infiltration of the United States.
The point is clear. The problem is that many people will not acknowledge some of the facts we unfortunately face in life. Police are generally very helpful, however assuming they will always respond accordingly is foolish. I would also say judging them may be innapropriate. I can only assume what it must feel like approaching a hotel room where the sound of an ar15 going off at high rates of fire. I can only imagine. With that said their role is to act when needed. The armed security guards may have been able to end it. Obviously we can never know. Trust and belief in most people is perfectly reasonable, total faith in strangers however…….
Police are generally very helpful
Never once so far in my life. The few times I’ve needed them and called them, they’ve been as useful as tits on a bull.
I’ll 2nd that. I’m still trying to find an instance when police ever helped me. Guy pulls a knife on me… Police only took 45 minutes to get there from .25mi away. Car broken into… Oh well good luck with that. Guy threatens me after hitting my car… they put my address on the incident report they give to him. Yes yes I feel the warm fuzzy feeling of the protected tax slave. And if someone tries to kill me I’ll get carted away with my gun in lockup till who knows when.
OK I have to put in my 2 cents on police helpfullness. In most cases I would agree but on one occasion the police were able to retrieve my stolen cell phone by recognizing the perp and tracking him down. I would chalk that down to a small town with a small crime base.
” Guy threatens me after hitting my car… they put my address on the incident report they give to him.”
Bet you won’t do *that* next time…
I was traveling on the upper level of the George Washington Bridge in New York City. Bumper to Bumper traffic at about 5 miles an hour. A lady smashed into the front of the camper I was towing with a van. Again, the front of my camper. Not the right side. Not the left side, but the front. Somehow she managed to get part of her car between my van and the camper and cause a couple of thousand dollars damage to my camper. She was trying to merge into my lane behind the van and I guess she didn’t notice the 24 ft white camper with shiny diamond plate skirt. And she didn’t get a ticket! Talk about useless!
Another time I was going back to Connecticut on I-95, 3AM at a highway rest stop. After I was approached by a flasher in the men’s room, (yeah I know, this is weird.) I left the men’s room, and found the manager on duty. I told her about the flasher and I asked her to call the police. She asked me why she should call the police and I told her because there were children in the facility. Her reply…… “Why would I call the police, the’re worse than the perverts”.
Police are not helpful or useful. They’re overpaid pigs who you cannot trust and cannot expect to be helped by.
They are their for three things: the pension, the paycheck, and the power.
Someone got too many speeding tickets.
….and evidently has no grasp of correct spelling, grammar or diction when attempting to convey thoughts into written language.
If TT’s opinions are based on observations of this event as much as the observations made on basic education, I would not be overly concerned with those opinions typed here.
Said the two “pigs”.
How condescending and character assassinating. Weak personal attacks and useless grammar-Nazi sidetracking. Bullies with no real substance. Pour some more Kool-aid, maybe someone will drink with you this time. Stop initiating violence over non-victim legislation breaches or go to hell. Your choice.
I asked one for directions once. He was helpful.
So, how were the doughnuts?😁
I got pulled over for speeding while lost trying to take some back roads to get around construction and resulting traffic. I hadn’t seen a single speed limit sign since jumping of the interstate. It was a paved road, so I assumed it was a 55. Anyways, right as I saw the first speed limit sign for 35 mph (apparently the land was within a state wildlife area or something), I saw a cop. His lights came on, I pulled over. I explained to him what had happened and he let me off with just a warning and I followed him back to the main road around the traffic jam. I thanked him and then teased him that he needed one of his taillights fixed. I didn’t want him to get a ticket ;).
As a teenager, we did plenty of dumb stuff including trespassing and whatnot for skating. The police were generally reasonable and just sent us on our way. A few were certainly assholes, but that wasn’t most of them. Then again, I am a white male from a mostly rural area.
The cops let you go when you were trespassing? Actually that proves the point that cops are ineffective. Consider the land owners point of view.
A bit of a funny story. I was travelling to do work in Birmingham AL. When I got there a police officer was parked in from of a store that I was walking into. I got his attention and he rolled his window down about an inch. I asked him where I should go to find a good place to stay. He looked at me, looked left and right then said “no where around here.” Gave me the name of a town 20 miles away. Laughed and said “I don’t live near here.” Needless to say I took his advice.
I have met a few polite cops….. The other 95% are unadulterated assholes, and 0% of them are helpful.
your statement holds water until you realize the police have real deal M4s or AR15s of their own in their rides and wear body armor with plates.
But from the “new” timeline the police arrived AFTER he killed himself, so no gun shots as the police approached his room, but they stil waited a loooong time before breaching. And isn’t there a lot of bragging about running towards gunfire when it comes to police? I guess reality doesn’t quite live up to the fantasy.
I don’t disagree with anything said. Your points are all reasonable. I’m merely pointing out running at a door, and hearing what they heard coming from the other side, I don’t know how many security guards wearing a Glock and a jacket would move into that room. Also with the guy dumping rounds through the front door I’m surprised so many people think the guards should be expected to move in.
Security shouldn’t have rushed the room and yeah he may not have been able to return fire not knowing if there were people in the room next door to the shooter. Still though why have armed security if you aren’t going to allow them to engage a threat? Why spend the money to buy em all pistols and train em if you’re going to make them stand around and wait for the police? Why didn’t the police move into engage sooner? They have rifles they have body armor why wait on SWAT and then wait a little longer before attempting to breech the hotel room?
Since he had already stopped firing well-before SWAT breached the room, maybe they ascertained he was already dead but were concerned about potential bomb threats. We’d all be pissed had they rushed the room where the shooter was already incapacitated and in the process they triggered a bomb that did even more damage.
I do agree, that its pretty amazing how slow police responses for a lot of these events are. Hell, apparently the SWAT is faster when people call in fake bomb threats on video gamers. Its also pretty messed up how often police officers don’t do whatever is within their means to stop the threat. Isn’t there audio of an officer located one floor below the shooter reporting the shooters location and the gunfire? How long was he there without even trying to take the guy out?
I really cant say what I would do in these situations. I certainly have a strong will to survive and go home to my family, but then again, that is one of the reasons why I am not a soldier or police officer.
whay the new timeline helps is the following theory: by the time the police had stacked up near the door the shooting had stopped so the urgency was gone. they arrived outaide the door and saw a cart with wires hanging out of it (which later turned out to be his camera system) and suspected a boobie trap of some type. since there was no urgency at that moment they waited for swat to retrieve the breaching charges.
what this does mess up is why there was a lot of confusion about his location initially (listening to scanners and such) did the hotel take so long to call police reference their own shot security guard that the dispatchers couldn’t price together the same man was likely the shooter? also the timeline for when the initial officers met the security guard as he was heading toward the stairwell? it took him six minutes to get out of the danger zone? perhaps there’s more (or less) going on… maybe after taking initial fire the guard hid it out and crawled away when he heard the shooter shooting *outside*? with an injured leg and that delay it would make sense it would take him several minutes to escape, at which point he met with police already ensure to examine the initial police report of shots fired by the hotel guard
“I can only assume what it must feel like approaching a hotel room where the sound of an ar15 going off at high rates of fire.” Tell that to the soldiers and marines who fought house to house in Fallujah. I’m sure they were equally apprehensive but they still did their jobs. I agree that we shouldn’t expect cops to go on suicide missions but we should expect them to put themselves at risk when it’s necessary to save others. We call people who do that “heroes.”
Doesn’t make sense. From what I’ve read the security guard was responding to a smoke alarm from all the smoke that accumulated in the room from the gun fire and was then shot. If he was shot before the shooting thing the reports have been wrong and begs the question why was the security guard on the 32nd floor to begin with and why has the narrative been wrong that the security guard stopped him from leaving. Which also doesn’t make sense because why would he go to the trouble of brining 20ish guns to his room just to leave them there. If our plan on hightailing it out of there you pack only what you need to travel light.
Nothing about this shooting makes sense. Everything about every piece of the narrative is fishy.
There is a saying: Don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by simple incompetence. The investigation isn’t complete. Half assed public statements, based on incomplete information, in the name of “transparency”, actually make our understanding less clear.
Tell me about it. It gets stranger and stranger as more of the information comes out. A coworker of mine did the construction of the Mandalay hotel and said those windows have alarms on them so with the smoke alarms, shooting through the door, and broken window alarms there was no confusion where the shooter was. The only thing I can possibly think of as to why the police used caution to the point of doing nothing is because they thought it was a standoff situation and he was gonna just baricade himself in the room. But then again with bodies falling with rounds raining down on the crowd that theory should have been thrown out. I said from the very beginning this just doesn’t add up. Now the note on the nightstand calculating bullet trajectory, come on man you have rifles with bump stocks not a sniper rifle trying to take a 1000 yard head shot. This shit stinks to high hell and has conspiracy written all over it.
Some have suggested that he was an arms dealer laundering money through the poker machines, hence all the guns. Who was the buyer? ISIS claims him. Did the ATF know? Sting gone bad? Patsy, stooge? Seems more likely than what has clearly been a BS narrative so far.
No, it doesn’t seem more likely, but the difference between the stated facts and SWAG facts is smaller. Money laundering certainly seems a non-trivial option. I lived in Vegas for a decade, and finding a pro gambler claiming $5mill, no idea if THAT report is true, a year in income playing video poker, is highly dubious. I watched a Chinese guy blow $500k in about 3 hours on high stakes video poker. I don’t think there really is a “good” slots/VP player, there is definitely an addiction though, and most of those people lose, big time. You could float a lot of cash through, especially if you didn’t actually bet to win, but bet to cover, mill in mill out, clean, since most casinos report the cash transactions, but only really report the megabucks type progressive jackpot slots.
The only pro gamblers that do well are sports betters, and on the poker tours, and they don’t really win much off the house, its against players in tournaments with prize money.
I meant, report the mega wins, not just slots transactions and cash outs.
The latest intel has Mr. Campos investigating a noise complaint from a nearby room; Mr. Paddock was drilling his camera into the floor. Or something. The smoke detector explanation has gone bye-bye.
If you got as much money as he had, leaving 20 guns in a hotel room isn’t that big a loss and if you’re looking to hightail it out of the room, all you need bring with you is yourself, the clothes on your back, and pistol to move quick and be light.
But there’s so many things that don’t add up with this narrative. Hell, there’s not even a motive, unlike with Sandy Hook (mental issues) or Pulse Nightclub (Islamic terrorism/homophobia)
The motive has become clear: he was an anti gun Californian trying to make a point.
This terrorist planned this for a very long time and spent a lot of money on it. He bought everything the anti gun people use as an argument to repeal the 2nd amendment. It’s very clear if you look at everything he has done and the brother who is actively trying to obfuscate the motive.
http://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=618136221&videoVersion=1.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6UJ5Uq7lyQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPZFN6VFFow
He never planned on escaping. They knew who he was. He sent his GF away and gave her money for a new life. He brought handguns with him. He only had one car. He stayed far too long.
Man, I never saw those interviews. The brother seems unglued himself.
Wouldn’t the shattering of the windows trigger an alarm? Or cause a lot of noise? This security guard would look a lot less like a schmuck right now if he had come forward to the public straight away. Common theme here: don’t trust the Feds
That was the first narrative. Subsequent to that it was stated that the security guard was responding to an open door alarm and I guess the shooter saw him on one of his cameras, which makes more sense as the shooting hadn’t begun yet..
How was security aware of the shooter before the shooting started???????
Security, Jesus Campos, was said to be sent to the 32nd floor because the hotel’s electronic door locks indicated one room had left its door open. He apparently went knocking on several neighboring doors. and 200 rounds came out of one of them. One of the bullets hit Campos.
The hotel’s report as to who Campos called after he was hit, and was almost immediately spotted by a maintenance worker, has been vague and confused.
It had nothing to do with smoke alarms.
Thx for that info
Standard police response policy:
Alarm is active, finish coffee before proceeding to scene.
Armed perp, order more coffee.
Shots fired, order more donuts and check chalk supply.
The original timeline was over an hour from first shot to breach of the door, seems like a hell of an error.
To be fair, we hear that the SWAT team had eyes on the broken windows. And the shooting had stopped.
If the shooter had returned to the window, the SWAT team would have made an immediate dynamic entry.
SWAT didn’t know how many shooters were inside, or whether the room was wired with explosives. Which could have taken out a huge chunk of the hotel.
run a hand around the door frame, kick door super hard, chuck flashbang, wait for bang, and enter room weapons up scanning for targets. It doesn’t have to be super complicated. Odds are if you are going to booby trap the room you’re firing from you’re not gonna set up a trap that will off you, but one that will slow the opposition down and alert you to their presence. Urban fighting sucks! Clearing rooms is always a casualty producer if you meet opposition, hitting a room with hostile people in it means someone is getting shot (usually the 2 or 3 man in the stack if the Army training is to be believed.). There is still no excuse for them to take that long to breach a room especially if the shooting has stopped.
Agree with your general POV, but I have a more extreme take as to the multi-year incompetence of the armed hotel security and/or SWAT:
There are heavy bullet-proof large shields available. Such shields (together with helmets and body armor) can allow four guards/cops to advance on the door, open it with a ram or “master key,” throw in not one but several flashbangs, and then advance behind the shield. Hotel environments do not present the difficulty with the shields that street exposure (or military speed requirements) do.
I won’t even get into the absurdity of penning in 22,000 people at ground level below thousands of windows in high rise hotels full of transients. It is impossible to secure such an event. Sorry, they’ll have to rent a more expensive or remote venue….
To be fair to Robert’s point, if the dude had dragged up a 500lb ANFO bomb, hey, tip the bellhop more to bring up some more luggage, then you kick the door, and boom, there’s a big hole on that side of the building from the 15th floor to the 40th.
That’s not what actually happened, but I suppose its a risk. Still doesn’t explain the roughly 20-30 minutes between shooting guard and the guy perforating his brain while he was still actively shooting.
I can’t remember if Mandalay Bay had floor hallway cameras, that’s the original tower, and its got to be 20-25 years old, and frankly, most security is around the casino floor, not much more than cursory in the lobbies, room floors, and elevators. Lots of problems with theft on those types of floors, and usually you throw some comps or a few grand in chips at an irate customer, and they dump it back in the casino, so it doesn’t really pay. We’ll see with the lawsuits.
ANFO bomb? That’s plain silly. I’m just an old ranch lady in the west, and even I’ve heard of plastic explosives that weigh almost nothing by comparison. IF he’d wanted to blow something up, that would be the logical choice. I’m glad he didn’t.
Yes, some kind of military explosive like C-4 or RDX would be more efficient but they are pretty tough to come by. Ammonium Nitrate on the other hand is available to non-military citizens (with a license now, since the Oklahoma City bombing you need a special license for anything with a nitrogen content above a certain point) and while it has a relatively low detonation velocity and brisance that make it a poor military explosive, it will move large chunks of shit with aplomb. Like open pit quarries, federal buildings, and hotels.
if this is true the hotel is about to / going to lose its shirt, as well it should. 58 wrongful death lawsuits, hundreds of bodily harm claims, and each and every one can be directly traced to their own written policy. this is priceless
Some claim the first few seconds of this video show a security guard in the crowd opening fire on the crowd.
https://rumble.com/v3rvcf-las-vegas-shooting-video-shows-security-guard-open-fire-on-crowd.html
Some would be wrong then, or not, but that video wouldn’t tell you crap, other than audio maybe, and that didn’t sound like anything near, like a handgun. Sounds like a long range shot from a 556, where you have impact, then SS crack, then muzzle blast, then echo’s.
Plus, on streamed video, the audio sync is always fairly bad too.
I must be blind if that video is supposed to show anyone in the crowd shooting, I watched that video over and over and over and saw nothing of the sort.
So security sat on their hands when they could have prevented the entire massacre? Just distracting the shooter could have bought the victims time to escape and the casualty count would have been much lower. So did the authorities accomplish anything that night, or did the shooter just run through his ammo and killed himself right after? It’s like the police and security did not exist at all. At this point, I can’t blame the conspiracy theorists because the incompetence we are expected to believe seems so improbably ridiculous.
Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
–but there are managers (of hotel security, of the police and SWAT). Customers have the right to blame managers for laziness, dereliction of their duty to gain expertise. I think we can blame the managers. No conspiracy except for the entire Vegas Casino/Hotel industry for conspiring to offload serious security, active-shooter reaction to protect guests and events…to police who are many minutes away.
Don’t even get me started on what I can only call COSPLAY SWAT, which seems to be a very widespread phenomena in the US. They typically creep up with Benelli 1014’s, M4’s, good body armor…and then demonstrate that they (….their bosses) completely failed to test and provide the equipment that gets the SWAT team able to close that last three-to-five meters with effective (but relatively safe, for them) violence. They should design the closing hardware (mega-shields, rams, master keys, the whole final bit…..and work back from that to determine how they get the gear there fast. Just my view.
I should briefly add that my feeling of disgust comes from this: For almost no pay and with no body armor I and my buds had to fly in day after day, week after week for two months, with a machine gun in our hands, low level, over heavily occupied and armed territory, Laos from Khe Sahn to at least LZ Lolo and Sophia. We would do this to protect who? ARVNs. But LV SWAT (and the hotel crew) can’t risk moving in with excellent equipment once every few years? What is being paid for? What is the moral imperative in the minds of SWAT? Just asking….
Grey’s Corollary: “Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice”
Why do we pay taxes again?
To support a ruling class called government, part of which is providing armed bodyguards for the ruling class, these are called “Police”
Because if you don’t, you go to jail. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sadly this is how Vegas is run. We need to remember that the casinos generate tens of millions of dollars for the State and City. If any discrepancies were found, business would suffer greatly. Vegas protects their own. It’s business.
Sigh. If the security guards didn’t react there isn’t going to be any successful lawsuit against them. They might pay a small confidential amount just to end the bad press. There isn’t any requirement that they act in that scenario. We shouldn’t pretend that wrongful death lawsuits are going to do anything to make giant hotels have to take any real steps to protect people. That is what tort deform legislation has always been about.
How about instead of gun control we pass a law saying police have to respond within 10 minutes of discovering the criminal’s location. Probably just as useless in practice as banning guns but let Congress waste time debating something that would actually have made a difference.
I can’t speak to security in Nevada as my experience is in the state of Oregon but some of the same concepts apply. Note that in addition to state laws there is company level procedures and practices. Your standards for deadly force as armed security mirrors every other citizen and their is no blanket liability carve out like LEO enjoys. Until we know more specifically about what the security guard saw and when it doesn’t do any good to blame him. As a security guard if I am responding to a noise complaint and receive fire through a closed door I can almost guarentee you that I would radio for Police. 1, I have no idea what is on the other sude of that door hostages, bombs, multiple persons, suicidal person, etc. 2, my security company may only back me from a civil suit if I acted in accordance with with their security policy, that could be a multi million dollar lawsuit for someone who doesn’t make a whole lot. 3, even if from my position I can hear automatic weapons fire who am I, in all likelyhood is only carrying a pistol and maybe soft body armor, am I able to clear a room with an unknown number of assaliants, with unknown armament. No my priority is get the other people on that floor to safety for when police do move in, prepare for evacuation in event of a bomb, and coridinate all this information with the police. Does it suck, yes. Is it likely the best tactical situation I as a security personel could make, probably. Does acting like Rambo or Dan what his name actually help certianly not. Know your responsibility, help where you are profecient, stay out of the way if you can do neither.
I was going to point out this same thing. As private security, we don’t get liability immunity like cops do. We’re not allowed to kick in doors and stop bad guys, because then we get fired and sued. All we can do is call it in to the LEOs, and watch THEM sit on their hands, which is what I suspect happened here.
Is there no option to commence an evacuation or a lockdown?
What does hotel security do in the event they discover a room on fire? Do they quietly contact the fire department, then sit back and wait for pros to show up? Or do they do what they can to contain the fire and get the guests to safety, while awaiting the fire department?
“Is there no option to commence an evacuation or a lockdown?”
Evacuate people out of the hotel *into* active fields of gunfire?
What choice did the hotel realistically have, there?
It brings us back to training and serious security. Both are not realistic to expect from most private companies. Their primary goal is to avoid any confrontation at all costs, and shake off any legal responsibility if a confrontation like this is unavoidable. They would wait for police for hours if need be.
If you’re going to designate a gun-free zone and disarm the decent folks, you should at least do your best to guarantee their safety. But of course we already know that gun-free zones are a sham.
If a private property owner says you can’t be armed on their property they should be duty bound to protect your life. If they don’t provide that protection they should go to prison or lose a lot of money for each victim. If they don’t want to take on that responsibility they can’t disarm you.
I disagree. As I know that I alone bear the responsibility for my and my family’s safety, if a private-property owner declines to allow me to be armed while occupying his property, as is his right, I must make the choice between disarming and remaining on his property, or leaving but remaining armed.
I choose to leave and remain armed. It’s a simple choice. I do not deny another citizen his property rights, and he cannot deny me my right to be armed except on property that he controls. I certainly am not going to rely upon a stranger to keep me safe while I am on his property; That would be like relying upon the police, would it not? He is not demanding that I stay, nor is he forcing me to do so; I have the right to leave. If I choose to stay, the property owner has no responsibility to protect me, as my staying is completely voluntary, and I accept the risk by willingly remaining in a place wherein I can’t defend myself or others.
Therefore, suing a hotel for not protecting me from a completely unpredictable hazard when I willingly accepted their terms and conditions is not likely to be successful. Suing one for not providing protection for tens of thousands of people on an adjoining property, with no expressed or implied contract to do so, doesn’t seem to have much chance of success, either; After all, it wasn’t patrons of the hotel who got shot, now, was it? Considering that nothing like this has ever happened before in history, up until now there’s been no need for hotels to search their patrons for a dozen or so firearms and thousands of rounds, has there? If a risk is unforeseen, how could a business be expected to plan for it?
It’s always something.
If every business was a gun free zone how do you go anywhere? A lot of places proclaim their place a no gun zone.
I try to go to a gas station, it’s a no gun zone. I try to go to the mall, it’s a no gun zone. I try to go to a hotel, it’s a no gun zone. I try to go the grocery store, it’s a no gun zone. I go to a car wash, it’s a no gun zone. I go to a restaurant, it’s a no gun zone. I go to the movie theater, it’s a no gun zone. Can’t go anywhere near a school zone (there is a lot of those and they are growing).
Keep making gun free zones and you won’t be able to walk or drive almost anywhere. If the streets, toll roads, highways, freeways are private property you won’t be able to drive on them. The rich can buy huge amounts of land — Chinese are buying a lot of it.
I understand that individuals have private property rights. I also understand that gun owners are treated like lesser beings. You can’t sign a contract to become a slave, it’s not enforceable. At what point does a human loss their right to be secure in their persons and effects? When I step on corporate property? Should a person be allowed to search me, take my gun, then not transfer responsibility of protection onto their corporation? Why should a corporation not be considered an individual yet get to act like one?
This… exactly John in AK
And CZJay… I’d have to say you live in a very bad place. Come visit NE Wyoming. We don’t have any “gun free zones” except (maybe) the post office… Oh, there was a “sign” on one dentist’s office for a while. The cute little picture of a gun with a red circle and slash. No idea where that dentist came from, of course. The only other dentist in town hunts, loves to shoot and loves to talk about it. We’ve had some marvelous conversations. 🙂
The no gun sign went away… Always did wonder why, but wouldn’t go in that office even to ask. None of my business.
In the last ten years, I’ve carried – both openly and concealed – into nearly every other store, shop, courthouse, library, bank, etc. in town and all those around here. Even the hospital, clinic, sheriff’s office. Nobody gets excited… or even much notices.
You’re living in the wrong place.
@CZJay — Concealed means concealed. 😉
Just sayin’.
So security waits for police, police waits for SWAT, SWAT waits for the shooter to kill himself or starts killing a bunch of other people? Home of the brave?
I guess everyone needs to carry a gun because the wait time is deadly. I know people who attended that event. They are going to have to stay away from other public events or learn what to do during an attack and to have a gun close by.
Las Vegas doesn’t seem to have a good counter terrorist plan. No snipers for large outdoor events next to an airport? Parking lots next to fuel tanks? Armed security that doesn’t protect anyone other than themselves? Very slow SWAT response times? Not enough highly trained police with active shooter gear in their vehicles?
Government needs to remind me again why we should not have the human right to self preservation.
We’ve always had the right to self preservation. What tyrants want to take away is the ability.
I hear a lot of people arguing against the castle doctrine and wanting its removal.
Fellow gamblers claim Paddock was a non-stop drinker, even when gambling. Others assert he was dependent on Valium, which, unlike perhaps Ativan, is fairly heavy and long acting. The mix is volatile. Several people were aware of the usages and his guns, and said nothing. Hideous. The girlfriend knew all these facts. What gives her the right to trade of LV’s security just to keep her meal ticket? The hotel knew that he was in there daily for six days, not three, with a “do not disturb” sign up for days at a time.. They did not have staff enter and check which should have happened after 12 hours of DND. But no. “The Emporer’s New Clothes”? Well, The Emporer’s New Security. Nothing useful there, eh?
“They did not have staff enter and check which should have happened after 12 hours of DND”
What are you talking about? When I’m on trips I always leave the DND up, sometimes for days, and I expect it to be respected.
The entire gambling business is Nevada’s bread and butter. Pass a law giving liability protection to armed hotel security to cover a few particular situations. Let each hotel/casino train up six or eight guards in the SWAT FOR A DAY entry routine. Equip them sufficiently (hire a good engineer and a SEAL or two for design work) to actually move in fast with as much self-protection as possible. It seems simple. Or get into a rent a SWAT deal and have them able to get into the hotel in two minutes. My local PD manages that…..
No more excuses for the long wait. It will cost peanuts, compared to the take.
Am I the ONLY one who notices we don’t know ANYTHING? He had a bumpstock? Or did he?!? Maybe he had a real machine gun…we still have BS narratives about all sorts of crimes. Anyone watch the 10 part Vietnam War documentary on PBS?Beyond eye opening if loaded with leftard opinions. The brave boys in blue appear to have FAILED bigtime in LV…
We also do not know the number of people who were actually shot, killed by a bullet, or died by trampling, etc,…
I remember a while back PD’s were starting to change protocols to where beat cops were showing up and making aggressive actions once they had a few (3-5) officers on scene. I distinctly remember a push to do this and some departments adapting to this because someone actually realized that tactically speaking, confronting the rampage killer was more important than having a detailed entry and hostage rescue plan.
I really wonder what happened to that. Frankly it’s ridiculous. 9/11 told us that terrorism had changed then and there. This isn’t the 80’s anymore where the PLA will take hostages and demand Israel and the US do a prisoner exchange for their comrades and some such bullshit. I know the idea for operational operator forces started to grow out of the botched Munich episode and the highly successful SAS embassy raid, but that was a different brand of terrorism. Todays terrorists and garden variety rampage killers aren’t trying to achieve political or social goals. Todays scum cvnts are trying to stack up innocent bodies ASAP. It shouldn’t take us this long to catch up and adapt tactics and training in the age of Homeland Security and all the other BS we spend money on for apparently nothing.
That push to eliminate the “set a perimeter and wait” was post Newtown.
Orlando’s Pulse nightclub …. Similar no entry… High death count. Beginning to see a pattern… There are no coincidences.
That’s actually what happened here. The team at the door was an ad hoc team that came together on site. There was only one official SWAT guy with them. They stopped at the door because there was a room service cart with a black box that turned out to be a camera, and a wire leading to it that they thought might could be a booby trap. By the time they got there, the shooting had stopped too.
I actually think the guys at the door did a good job. I have lots of questions about the security for the event and whether the security guard got a timely call for help out.
I guess all the facts have to come out first. Hopefully those facts will be revealed to the public. It’s hard to say where mistakes were made.
I do wonder how things would have played out if something like that had occurred in Israel. Would the response have been faster and harder?
Lots of pretty extreme hatred towards law enforcement in this thread. Whatever happened to the “no flame” rules I’ve seen enforced in other articles here?
It’s not a flame if it’s the literal truth.
All the LEO HATE comes straight from the Top…Robert Farago! He and his Minions have total DISTAIN for Law Enforcement Officers…Good or Bad!! I would love to see these A-holes do a 12 hour Midnight Shift on the “Bad side of town”…..they would be wetting their pants and crying for mommy!!
I can’t say I particularly blame Paul Blart and the Mandalay Mall Cops for not charging through the Funnel of Death at Mr. Full Auto.
I’ve worked in the military, private security, and as a police officer. I’m still wondering why casino security took so long to respond to an incident in their own building. Some of the cop bashing may be justified, but why so little concerns over private security?
We don’t know the amount of time that passed from when the hotel called the police and the police got to the door. At least I can’t find that information anywhere, if anyone can I’d like to see it. Because if we believe what has come out from Clark County, SWAT arrived 10 minutes after they were called and by that time the shooter was dead. 10 minutes for SWAT is a fine response time. The fact that they waited to go in, if the shooter was dead and they had eyes on the window, is also fine. But what we don’t know is if patrol officers we’re stacked up on that door or otherwise just waiting for SWAT. If that was the case, no, that’s fine. That means security was waiting for police, and police were waiting for SWAT, and people were dying.
Officers, private security, or just a good guy with a gun, I find it unconscionable that anyone would do nothing but wait for the next person while such a massacre was ensuing.
We are missing some vital pieces of information. It may be that the cops arrived quickly, but it was a long time before they were actually called. Or it may be that they sat on their hands and waited. Frankly, I don’t think it matters. Because the takeaway here is that, like Orlando, once again we have been shown without any shadow of a doubt that we are on our own. This is another example of why we must be armed, and why we must be vigilant.
I see everyone is still drinking the Fake News Media cool-aid…Can anyone “prove WITHOUT a shadow of a doubt…” that this Multi-millionaire went completely off the rails , and did all of this…By himself…For whatever reasons known to him..Since, of course, He’s dead…And Deadmen tell no tales…[re: “Deep State.”]
They were not armed. They have a strict policy of not allowing security guards to be armed. It was a gun free zone in every sense of the word. Only the bad guy had guns.
https://www.mandalaybay.com/content/dam/MGM/mandalay-bay/meetings/documents/mandalay-bay-meetings-convention-mb-private-security-policies-as-of-10-2012.pdf
That’s private security attending not Mandalay’s own security.
Place is owned by MGM Resorts Intl”
From wikiped
Among the company’s management ranks, more than 38 percent are minorities and nearly 43 percent are women.[21] The company continues to receive wide recognition for its diversity and inclusion initiatives, such as: 40 Best Companies for Diversity (Black Enterprise Magazine),[22] Top 10 Companies for Latinos (DiversityInc Magazine),[23] Best Places to Work for LGBT Equality (Human Rights Campaign Foundation),[24] Top 10 Regional Companies(DiversityInc)[25] Top 100 Companies for MBA Students (Universum Global) and Top Corporation for Women’s Business Enterprises (Women’s Business Enterprise National Council).[26] FORTUNE magazine has named MGM Resorts one of the World’s Most Admired Companies.[27]
That sum up the politics of the joint re: firearms etc?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: “Gun Free Zones” that work on the honor system are probably the dumbest idea in the history of security.
Myself and the the group I work for are trying to change the way Private Security works. We have had a program in place for almost 2 years that includes Heavily Armed undercover operators that provide surveillance (profiling) and armed response to Active Shooter situations. All the under cover officers are like me, ex SWAT operators and or Trainers, backed up by uniformed armed security, some of which have recently been SWAT Trained. We have shared our program with some of the biggest venues in the US and most have shown interest. I think after the events in Los Vegas more venues will be getting on board and this will change the way we look at Large Venue security….maybe we can put a stop to some of these mentally defective murderers.
Hard to blame the security, look at it from their point of view – they knew there was a madman with a gun who shot at them. Therefore they did what was pretty racional in their situation – wait for a strike team. I think they learned what Paddock really does way too late to react. But I am not saying I am not sorry they did not manage to stop him in time…
The narrative has changed dramatically over the past 24 hours;
1) Police have “concluded” Paddock suffered from an “untreated mental illness”. He had no political, religious or societal motive.
2) Jesus Campos was shot at 9:59 PM and Paddock began firing six minutes later from 10:05 PM to 10:15 PM. The Police did not know Campos had been shot until they found him wounded in the hallway while they were looking for where the shots were coming from about 10:16 PM and Paddock had already shot himself (apparently).
There is something seriously wrong in all this.
Insofar as the Police response time and responsibility to ordinary Citizens: ALL of us are potentially “collateral damage” whether suspected perpetrator or innocent bystander. Your life only matters to you and your immediate family/friends where the State and its Agents are concerned.
Many of us ordinary folks respect and value the lives of “strangers”, which is why with so many firearms and other lethal weapons in the hands of ordinary folks there is relatively so little violent crime in the U.S. Our mistake is that we project our belief in the sanctity of others’ lives onto the State and its Agents, expecting those entities hold the same belief. Sadly, it just ain’t so.
No one can discard the ISIS connection any longer. This story has changed dramatically since the hour that the FBI wrote off that theory as not plausible. And, anyway, after the Crooked Clinton fiasco, who still in his right mind trusts anything the FBI says?
How come with 22,000 targets, a bunch of country western stars and all their roadies, managers, etc there is nothing but cell phone video of this event and all of them pretty much suck?
“… etc there is nothing but cell phone video of this event and all of them pretty much suck?”
I have the answers for you.
Why only cellphone video – It was a live music concert.
It’s common for concert tickets to have the phrase “No recorders” or similar on the ticket. Cellphones, especially smartphones, aren’t commonly considered high-quality video recorders.
Why the quality sucked – With the exception of the stage, the concert venue was darkly lit. Cellphone cameras usually have very small lenses projecting light onto tiny CCD imaging chips. The less photons that strike the imaging chip, the crappier the quality is. Some try to compensate by slowing down the frame rate to give more time for more photons to fall on the chip to register an image. This leads to a ‘jumpy’ looking video…
There is a shooter on the 32nd floor facing the concert.
Turn the lights ON and don’t begin to clear the area, wait until the shooting begins.
Better look for exits and cover unless you enjoy being a fish in a well lighted barrel.
This situation is far worse than is being described. According to the officers interviewed on 60 minutes, there never was a “SWAT Team” at the door of the room. There were 2 K9 officers, 1 detective and another officer and 1 SWAT team member who all resounded individually after the radio calls went off. The radio calls apparently started after he started shooting at the crowd. If I remember correctly, they were at the room in 9 minutes. If the guard was shot 6 minutes before that, there is a lot of time that something could have been done but wasn’t. By the time they breached the door, there were other Cops on the floor but apparently not close to the door. The SWAT member had the charges to do the breach.
The narrative now is that the cops didn’t know a guard was shot until they got there. When was 911 called about the guard being shot? Who called? or worse…Who didn’t?
Seems police as well as hotel security don’t fire at active shooters because of liability issues and law enforcement has been emasculated over the years by Issues of hiring discrimination and now the force has people/genders in it that are incapable of being in fire fights.
When there is a killing spree a police officer must charge at the attacker and kill him a fast as he can at all cost.
I don’t understand why the swat team waited. The danger was clear real and immediate.
As for the security gaurd it’s difficult to demand from him what you would a policeman.
We’re never going to see that video footage.
It seems clear the LVPD is scrambling to cover its butt about the delay in confronting the shooter.
Which means nothing they say can be trusted. They know they’re due to be sued by literally hundreds of people once the truth comes out about their incompetence.
NOT same guy. https://twitter.com/jeracam/status/917534348810874880
I can’t help but laugh at those of you who have visions of being a hero: “If I’d have been there and been armed I would have kicked in the door, guns blazing!” I’ll bet 98% of you have never been shot at or even had any serious training and more than 99% have never fired a shot at someone. You really think you’re going to charge that door when the guy is laying down suppressive fire? 200 plus rounds? You guys think having a gun makes you invincible. Have you ever opened and shut a door at a casino hotel room? They are SOLID – getting through something like that is a serious challenge without proper equipment. As for entry, you always have to make a PLAN to avoid more loss of life AND the escape of the bad guy. Many of you have not truly thought this thing out and that’s fine because you don’t know any better.
As a retired state trooper and an Army officer most of you truly are clueless about this kind of situation. Maybe you would be brave enough to charge that door and lose your life. The one thing I will say in agreement – as ANY cop with sense will say – police cannot protect everyone every minute of the day, YOU are responsible for at least the first 10 minutes of an incident, in some cases longer. So thank God most of us in this country have the option to carry a firearm and defend ourselves and families. Bash the cops if you want but they did a great job considering. It’s sure easy to talk shit on a forum.
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