Fact Check: Shipping Firearms

1. I’m actually trying to figure this out right now. I have two AR barrels and two stripped lowers for a friend in another state, and I’m trying to figure out if/how I can ship them to him. He’s driving down here for Christmas, and could take them home with him then, but both I and he (especially he) would really like to get them into his hot little hands before then.

   This is a personal friend, 20+ years, not some random dude from Gunbroker, and it’s perfectly legal for him to purchase/own/possess these items. The parts just happen to be at my house, and he’s 700 miles away.

   • You’d have to send the lower receivers to an FFL. There’s no other legal way to do it unless you want to wait and have him take them home (AFAIK).

     • That’s correct; those lower receivers can only be transferred interstate by an FFL. Your friend cannot come and pick them up from you in person, and you cannot send them directly to him. You may send them to an FFL in his home state to be transferred to him.

   • All the above advice notwithstanding: do you live in a registration state?

     • I do not, and neither does he.

       Concerns about “straw purchasing” notwithstanding, I bought and paid for and own the stripped lowers, and therefore they are mine to do with as I please. If I choose to gift him with one (or more) for Christmas, that’s between me, him and the fencepost. He has not, nor will not directly reimburse me for their cost.

       • I’m pretty sure if you and he are residents of different states than it’s illegal to do any transfer without involving a FFL, including giving them as gifts.

       • Oh, I’m pretty sure you’re right. My statement above represented my opinion, not the reality of the situation. I could have worded it better to make that clear.

2. When you say “non-licensed dealer”, don’t you really mean a non-licensed individual? I think a non-licensed dealer is either a contradiction in terms or is describing someone who really is a dealer but who doesn’t have a license, a federal crime I believe.

   • By definition, a “dealer” is a “licensee,” an entity (person or business) with an FFL, excluding C&R. Someone who buys and sells guns as a business with an FFL, is not a “dealer” but a “criminal.” According to ATF, there is no such thing as an unlicensed dealer.

3. I thought you could ship it for repair whether or not the party you are shipping to is an FFL.

   • Whether it is going back to the original manufacturer for repair, or to a licensed gunsmith, both of these entities will have some variation of a Federal Firearms License. They can then ship the repaired gun directly back to you, unless there is a state law that prohibits this type of transfer.

   • “An individual firearm owner may ship a firearm to a FFL licensed dealer or licensed manufacturer for repairs or customization. The licensed party who does the work may then ship the firearm back to the owner’s address when repairs or customization have been completed.”

     • So with what you said, I can send my damaged glock frame to glock, then they can repair/replace it and send it back to my residence? From Georgia to South Carolina?

       • Yes, that was the procedure when I built my own G30SF, years before the factory offered it. Glock wouldn’t just sell me the slide/barrel – they had to have the frame/receiver. I used the local FedEx depot to send them the pistol and and they sent it back to to my house, with the new parts included.

4. On the subject of interstate transactions involving FFL dealers, one thing to note is that a FFL dealer is not REQUIRED to accept a firearm shipped by a non-licensee (non-dealer/private citizen). An increasing number of FFLs will only accept a firearm shipped from another FFL, as it has a more robust and verifiable paper trail. FFL dealers have to record any firearms they receive into their “bound book” (or computer equivalent) records, and a big part of that record is a full identification of who the firearm was received from. If the seller/transferror person is standing in front of you, it’s fairly easy to verify who they are using a government-issued photo ID and enter that info into the FFL book, but if a firearm shows up in a box with a photocopy of a driver’s license (or, worse yet, no identification of the previous owner at all), then the dealer has a huge potential problem that could explode during his next BATFE compliance inspection — especially if the gun turns out to be stolen, or comes up in a criminal investigation.

   Summary: verify in advance that any FFL dealer you are planning to use will accept firearm transfers from a non-licensee, if your upcoming transaction requires it. Again, they are NOT required by law to do this; they can (and often do) require the shipper to use an FFL to get a secure paper trail.

   • An excellent point. Because FFL’s names and physical addresses are a public record, there are times when the “mystery package” arrives and the FFL is left wondering “Who the (*&(* is this?!” Once the package arrives and the FFL opens it and finds that there is a “firearm” within (ie, a serial numbered part, like a receiver, or a complete firearm), guess what? The FFL is bound to enter said firearm into his bound book. All he has to go on for the source of the firearm is whatever documentation is supplied by UPS/etc or any enclosed note.

     Fortunately, I’ve not had this “mystery gun” experience, but I know other gunsmiths who have had it, and they will tell you that they’re not pleased. The reason why is that if the BATFE shows up for a records inspection while this “mystery firearm” is on their books and there is no disposition of said firearm which requires someone coming in to their establishment to clear up the source and destination of the firearm, the ATF starts asking questions: ATF: “Do you know, on paper, with photo ID, who this source of the firearm is?” (“Uh, No, it just arrived.”) ATF: “For whom?” (“Well, it didn’t say, so I just entered it into the book under acquired guns and left it in the safe.”) ATF: “Ah. I see.”

     Getting an “I see” from an ATF inspector isn’t a good way to start or end your day.

     Our policy is that if a gun arrives “out of the blue” without any forewarning, ID or other paper trail for us with the firearm and we can’t clear this up immediately, we’re calling our friendly local ATF inspector to report it. Gunowners might think that we’re dimeing them out for no reason… well, in fact there is a very good reason. There’s no “three strikes and you’re out” policy for FFL’s. If the paperwork errors rise to a certain level for the ATF on an inspection (and they keep track of how many errors you’ve had in past years and add that to your overall total), they will present you with a choice on the day of the inspection: Surrender your FFL, or face criminal prosecution. Once you surrender your FFL for paperwork non-compliance, you will never get another FFL – ever. Getting a “mystery gun” that turns out to have a criminal source to it that arrived without ID or provenance, and you just left on your A/D book… rises to that level pretty quickly.

     One more thing which I didn’t see addressed above: If you don’t want to incur additional charges when picking up a handgun, send your handgun(s) to FFL’s with a trigger lock, action lock, or cable lock enclosed with (but not necessarily on) your handgun. Before any FFL is allowed to transfer a handgun back to a non-licensee, even the original owner, it must have a lock or disabling device that prevents the handgun from functioning without removing said device. The local ATF (Denver) tells me that a cable zip-tie is sufficient if the zip tie must be cut off before using the handgun. But if you don’t want to be charged for the FFL providing a gun lock, send in your handguns with a lock. He’ll have to put it on the gun before you walk out the door, and you can remove it right there. It doesn’t have to be on the gun when it arrives at the FFL – the Brady law reads as the device must be on the gun when it is transfered to the buyer/owner/non-licensee.

     • So what federal statute or regulation does an FFL violate by entering an incoming firearm onto their bound book absent “metaphysical certitude” of its origin?

       I think the answer is: none.

       It’s understandable why the BATFE would very much like to know the real-time coordinates for each and every firearm that has ever existed. But there simply isn’t any federal law or regulation that makes it a crime to for a licensee to receive a firearm with less-than-perfect provenance.

       So “[g]etting a ‘mystery gun’ that turns out to have a criminal source to it that arrived without ID or provenance, and you just left on your A/D book” can never rise to the level of license revocation.

       • Getting a mystery gun with a criminal provenance isn’t the issue here. It’s the lack of required information about the non-licensee transferring a gun to me. I don’t have to check for criminal provenance on acquisitions. I am required to know the name, address and contact info for someone putting a gun into my possession.

         Like the tax laws, the interpretation of the regulation and laws is subject to the ATF’s internal policy (the ATF issues ruling letters) as well as inspector on the site, conducting the examination of your records at that time. If you get five ATF inspectors in a room and ask them “What do you do about situation ‘X’?,” you will get at least seven different “authoritative” interpretations.

         The inspectors themselves joke about this.

         I noticed that in a recent informal meeting with FFL holders and prospective FFL applicants, the ATF employees were the only people laughing at this joke.

         The ATF requires that the acquisition record have the following information by the end of the day the gun is received, per 478.125(e):

         1. Date of receipt.
         2. Name and address of non-licensee or FFL # from where you received the firearm. I’ve had two ATF inspectors tell me (this year) that government-issued, photo ID with the non-licensee’s physical address (no PO boxes need apply) are what they want to see for ID. There’s no black-letter requirement for ID on the way in – that’s true. But wait… there’s more. Follow through to below.
         3. Name and manufacture of the firearm, and importer (if any).
         4. Model number/name of firearm.
         5. Serial number of firearm. There are some .22’s and shotguns prior to 1968 which do not have a serial number; for those, you enter “NSN.”
         6. Type of firearm (rifle/pistol/revolver/shotgun, frame/receiver/etc).
         7. Caliber or gauge of firearm.

         So, for a start, if a gun arrives without info and I can’t establish the name and address of the owner or person who sent it in before the close of business, I’ve got a problem.

         Now, there’s a special wrinkle for gunsmiths that doesn’t apply to other FFL’s. If someone brings in a gun for repair and I can complete that repair within the business day (which the ATF doesn’t define, but the inspectors tell me “certainly ends at midnight local time”), and the same person who dropped the gun off comes in before the end of the business day to pick up the gun, I don’t have to enter anything into my A/D book. I don’t have to have them fill out a 4473 or conduct a NICS check when returning the gun to them.

         However, if Bobby Joe Jimmy John sends in his brother Jimmy Joe Jim Bob to pick up his Remington 870 that he dopped off this morning for cleaning before dove season opening tomorrow, I must complete a 4473 and NICS check – because the ATF considers that a transfer. If I didn’t have Bobby Joe Jimmy John’s address and legal name on record, I’ve got an incomplete acquisition record. ATF maintains that I should have gotten that info when it was dropped off. That I believed Bobby Joe Jimmy John when he said he’d be back before COB to pick up his 870… that’s my problem.

         Even if the same guy shows up to pick up his 870, I could be in violation. I’ve had two ATF inspectors tell me that they recommend or “strongly suggest” I have state-issued ID on all intake – because if Joe Dokes comes in, drops off a firearm for repair and tells me that he’ll be back before the end of the day and he doesn’t make it, I then have to enter it into the A/D book. If I don’t have his name and address to enter at the end of the day, I’m in violation of the regulations.

         Now, 27 CFR 178.125(e) says that I have until the end of the day following the day of acquisition to record the acquisition. All the ATF FAQ’s, coupled with face-to-face interviews with ATF inspectors, don’t agree with this when they’re talking about the gunsmithing FFL. They say for a gunsmith (which I am), that if I have possession of a gun after the close of business that was dropped off for repair, I have to enter it at the end of that day.

         The ATF considers guns shipped in to be in the same bucket as guns physically walked in my front door: If I can return it on the same day to the guy who sent it in, I don’t have to record a thing in the A/D book. Since that’s pretty unlikely, the incoming gun better have a ID-verifiable name & address attached to it. And since I better not be transferring a gun to someone who wasn’t the person who sent it in (ie, not performing a 4473 and a NICS check), I’d better know who actually sent it in if I’m going to return it to someone and not have them fill out a 4473 and a NICS check. None of that is black letter law or regulation. It’s interpretation and shading of ATF Ruling letters.

         If a customer wants to argue with the ATF? They can do it on their dime, their time and, better yet, with their FFL, not mine.

         And, BTW: If I get a trace request on a gun that’s on my books and I can’t produce at the required basic ID information about where that gun came from when I return their call? This lack of information on my part is recorded, I’m told. A licensee has 24 hours to respond to trace requests. When a licensee responds to a trace request, he’d better not have to tell them “Let me make a call to get that information.” Both inspectors have told me that, too.

5. I had a pistol shipped from my parents home in another state to an FFL in NY. My FFL said he would take it from a private individual but it had to be shipped UPS Overnight. Very expensive way to ship anything (UPS also said that it had to go overnight). If it had been taken to an FFL I assume it could have been shipped cheaper but a second FFL fee would have been incurred. It still may have been cheaper. As it was I paid about half the value of the pistol in FFL fees and shipping. Other than it was a pistol I had bough 40+ years ago new and it had sentimental value I would have been better off selling it where it was and bought something new here.

6. I thought one could ship a Long Gun to themselves from one state to another by way of the USPS. The only way to do this without an FFL is by using a private shipping company(UPS, FedEx)?

   • From the BATFE website:

     Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

     Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

     However, the laws in the receiving state must be checked. In some states, it’s illegal.

   • I hope its clear that I can ship long guns (shot guns or rifles) that I own from a state to another state. This is done all the time for hunting, but another person would have to ship them to a person who has a license, and inform the shipper and the package cannot say it has a firearm, etc. Also, maybe issues to some states, but not from Utah, Florida, Virginia, or some others, with no laws, but perhaps Cal, NY, etc do. Also, handguns may need to be shipped to an person that has a license. I don’t think the Brandy bill or has issues. Is it that simple ?

7. Regardless of the law, I have tried to ship a handgun to myself by UPS for lawful purposes in an another state. I was denied by UPS as I was not an FFL holder. They were aware of the law and simply put in place rules stricter than the law. I wrote about this in a previous thread on TTAG. Search for NoCaliban. Or check out rules at http://compass.ups.com/AskTheExpertForum.aspx?srch_pos=5&srch_phr=Handguns. Or at http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=7&srch_phr=Handguns.

   • Yep you’re right. UPS will only let a non licensee ship a handgun if its going back to the manufacturer for repairs. I’ve run into this every time I’ve tried to ship a handgun, even when I showed them the relevant federal law.

8. “One caveat: this is not legal advise”

   http://www.learnenglish.de/mistakes/advicevsadvise.htm

9. This is probably the single most difficult issue I have with selling on gunbroker. I’ve sold several handguns on the site, and clearly listed that shipping would follow the rules you listed above. In all but one case the buyer’s pitched a fit over shipping costs. A few wanted me to ship it directly to them without using an FFL at all. When I wouldn’t they refused to complete the sale.

   Shipping a long gun is much easier. In my experience my local post office is far more professional regarding gun shipments than UPS. Fedex is so expensive I’ve never used them. Several times I’ve had UPS simply refuse the shipment. When I went back on the next shift they accepted it. For a long time you could ship next day air “saver”. It would cut about 30% off the price because delivery was guaranteed the next morning. I’m not sure if that still works or not.

   I’d like to know what kind of paperwork I would have to go through to get a FFL to service my family and friends. Can you do on article on that?

10. Good Article,

    Does anyone have any info on shipping firearms via a UPS store vs the real deal UPS hubs or having a driver pick up an item if you have an account? I had a UPS Store refuse to ship a rifle; I understand it’s not a common request so I can understand the counter girls lack of knowledge and fear of doing something wrong. Will UPS stores handle firearms?

    • No, firearms cannot be shipped via the UPS Store; they may only be shipped at an actual UPS location. UPS Stores are independent franchises, and are not UPS locations.

      • Your correct UPS won’t ship from store , you must go to hub or pickup from house rifles and blackpowder

    • According to the Corperate offices in San Diego, CA They have a policy of not take anything related to a firearm. This includes scopes, cases, etc.

11. The big question is – how do I ship the pistol in for repair without breaking the budget. And while the BATF defines the pistol as the hardware with the serial number, does UPS, USPS, etc have to follow the same rule? Example – If I have a cracked frame and I am returning just the frame, it is a controlled item, but is it legal to ship by UPS, USPS, FedEx. I was also told because it was only a frame I was shipping back, it was not a gun and therefore could be shipped via USPS. At one time I thought I remembered that if it is in for repair you don’t have to declare it a gun to the common carrier. When I shipped the my Ruger 10/22 receiver back to the mfg it was easy. Shipping a Glock style frame, a royal pain in the pocket book if I do it. Now I am looking at going thru an FFL to see if there is a significant saves because they have other means of shipping the hardware in for repair. My final option is to travel about 100 miles to a gunsmith that does specialize in this style pistol and pair for the repair out of pocket so I can save on the shipping costs.

    • If you can find an FFL who will ship it for a reasonable fee, that might be your best bet. You box it up and you pay the postage plus the FFL’s fee for logging it in and out of his book and running it to the Post Office for you.

      Since handgun frames are generally the serialized part, you cannot ship the frame via USPS; only the FFL can do that.

      • And that’s what I told the company, but I can strip the pistol to only the serialized item to save weight – and any other parts go by slow boat. If get some good hard foam, and make a fitted container I can keep the box, packing material and frame under 4lbs which will save a bunch of money if I go UPS/FedEx. (Tho some companies have business deals with UPS to allow slower methods of shipping.)

12. Very interesting topic!
    Maybe you wish to go into more detail. It will surely be of interest for your readers.

    BTW:
    Things become really fuzzy when it comes to EXPORT of even small firearm parts, such as simple replacement parts.
    Once I tried to get some binding information from US customs regarding the shipping of grip extensions and a replacement extractor for my gun to South America. The only thing I’ve got was a meaningless standard response which did not help at all. Direct contact with US customs? If you like to comply with the laws..it appears that they leave you in the lurch…

    • Should might want to contact BATF not Customs they will assess duty and may require a bonding agent but may not know all firearm laws

13. OK, I have a question – how do people ship guns for like $25 (as I see on gunbroker)? I had to ship a pistol (inside the state) back for warranty work and UPS charged me $70 for it.

    • UPS and FED EX both consider as next day service and you pay through the nose. I ship guns via USPS and runs from about 25.00 to 40.00 depending on the value of insurence and delivery conformation. I charge 50.00 to ship a firearm for a customer and about half goes to the Post Office.

      • Yes, but USPS refuses to ship pistols from non-dealers, so that leaves me screwed. I’m assuming a C&R license doesn’t count?

14. ON ANOTHER NOTE be aware of shipping guns and mags to CALIFORNIA. Unlike most states they have their own state system and you ship a gun to CA it MUST go through a FFL. Also be aware of sending mags of over 10 rounds to CA.

15. Proof that gun laws are stupid and purposely over-complicated.

16. My son wants to return a hand gun to me. He is in another state and works for a FFL dealer. Can he ship it directly to me, as I am the registered owner, or must he ship to a FFL in my state? Confusing…
    Thanks for your help.

    • No he can not it must go dealer to dealer

      • Thank you. It is interesting as I stopped at the local post office this morning and the clerk said it would be okay as long as it ships from a FFL. To be safe, I will follow your advise and have him ship to a local FFL dealer.
        Kevin

    • As louringe said, it must go to an FFL. FFLs can only ship direct to a non-FFL person in cases like repair work. For instance, I can send my SIG to SIG Sauer for repair without involving an FFL on my end, and they can return it directly to me without going through an on my end FFL. That is the extreme and sole exception to the standard rule that any handgun-related transaction must go through an FFL on the receiving end, especially across state lines.

    • Oh, also. I don’t know if he intends to ship it himself or ship it from “work,” but if he intends to do it himself, make sure your local FFL will take it. Many FFLs will not receive firearms shipments from individuals. Some won’t even give their FFL information to an individual (e.g. you), but will insist on sending it directly to the originating shipper.

      • Thanks for your comments. I believe we have it figured out.
        Kevin

17. When I have a dealer ship a gun I purchased (from their website) to an FFL dealer, what prohibits the FFL dealer from saying, “I never received your gun,” or some other excuse, in order to keep the gun you had shipped there. In other words, what keeps them from stealing your gun? I imagine it’s incarceration in federal prison and losing their FFL license. That’d be it, right?

18. When my dad died, in Utah, he had guns, and in the probate, that went to me, shot guns and 2 rifles, and antique black-powder pistol. I life in Virginia, and both have good gun law. Have looked at all law and so confused. No problem with black powder even pistol, but do wonder about long guns. Some ATF has FAQs, and some sites say I can ship my guns if I go to Utah, but another person would have to ship to the FFL, and pay for that, and maybe background. Is OK for hunting or other “legal purposes,” and sounds fine. One said put c/o to me, just like direct and all use, and seem OK. Maybe the bottom line is that I can fly to Utah, other that have to use FFL for each gun, even and screw the cost. Why do I have to use 4473 background check, which is just a pain?

    Can I go to Utah and ship my shot guns home?

    • If you can legally take possession of the long guns in Utah, you can ship them to yourself in Virginia. They are your property. I know this is true for long guns; I do not know if it also applies to handguns.

19. I have two questions regarding my situation. I have two residences, one in Florida and one in Colorado. I want to bring my AK 47 and my Mosin M44 to Colorado. What would be the easiest way to send it without violating any laws.

    Also, Colorado is a 15 round magazine state. My AK magazines are all 30 to 45 round ones. Should I ship the magazines separately through the USPS or FED EX/UPS? Keep in mind, I had the magazines before the new 15 round magazines law went to the books but will not have receipts to prove it.

    • From the ATF FAQ:

      6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
      Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

      I have no advice on the magazine question. Consult an attorney familiar with firearms law in Colorado.

20. So i am a bit confused about your article because on the ATF site they say that you can ship rifles and shotguns through contract carriers and USPS, but you cant ship hand guns through USPS. You have a article that says it is verified through these sites for legality but but your article is completely different, what am i missing? did i miss read your meaning?

21. My question is, would a gunsmith need to verify a person with a government agency? whom sends a rifle bolt body to another state to have a larger bolt knob installed before returning the item back to the original sender?

    Thanks for any information

22. I have shipped my gun into a MFG for repair. They have had it for over 15 months. They cannot/will not tell me what the status of the repair is, where my gun is in the process, ship back my gun or prove to me that they still have my firearm.

    I believe the MFG has lost or had my gun stolen from them. It is a hand gun. How do I report it lost/stolen? I live in PA the MFG is in FLA.

    Thank you
    Joe

23. Can I ship my pistol that is being gifted to a friend in-state,(Texas), I think that is legal, is it? Which carriers will accept it? Do they screw you on the ship fees? I’ve heard some won’t ship pistols. Who should I send this through???

24. Queston: shipping from CO to NY do you need FFL on both ends?

25. Ffl on both ends of shipping a long gun from CO to NY ?

26. So I have a buddy in another state and and his mag capacity rull is no more than 30 rounds mine is 10 Rounds I was wondering if he can send me the 32rd magazine and I chop it to a 10rd here in CA cd he dosent have the tools thanks

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