“When a jury gathers next week for the trial of two men charged with the murder of a U.S. federal agent, it will not hear any details of how two guns found at the murder scene were part of a U.S. government-sanctioned weapon program,” kvoa.com reports. After considering the motion from federal prosecutors, U.S. District Court Judge David Bury agreed to bury the ATF’s secret anti-gun-running gun-running op known as Fast and Furious. There is a glimmer of hope that F&F will get a look in . . .
“I agree [to the prosecution’s motion to suppress all mention of Fast and Furious] with one exception,” the Judge said. “I can’t find any relevance except if the government should open the door.”
If the government brings up the origins of the guns found, Bury ruled that defendants can then bring up Fast and Furious.
Bury ordered the defendants “not to refer to … or elicit any testimony regarding Operation Fast and Furious. Understood?”
Here’s hoping the prosecution can be tricked into opening that door. Because all hell could – finally – break loose. There is a direct link between the ATF’s Fast and Furious program and the death of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry (equipped with a beanbag-firing weapon on the night of his death). The guns used by the bad guys. AND the massive U.S. government coverup after his death.
Yes, there is that.
While I have no love for the rip crew that murdered Terry (one of whom is serving a 30-year sentence), there’s no question that the feds swung into “damage control mode” immediately after Terry’s death. The day after the world learned that Terry’s killers shot him with guns provided – albeit indirectly – by the U.S. government, no less a personage that DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano flew to Phoenix to oversee the “investigation.”
The resulting coverup of the ATF’s involvement in Terry’s murder, and the murder of dozens of other American and Mexican nationals with ATF-enabled weapons, went to the highest levels of the Obama administration. Congress still doesn’t have the F&F documentation it requested, despite citing U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder for contempt.
All of this speaks to a question directly relevant to Ivan Soto Barraza’s and Jesus Leonel Sanchez Meza’s defense: did the United States government manufacture or suppress evidence against the men charged in Terry’s murder? Uncle Sam has both the motivation to do so and a history of perfidy in that regard. Excluding Fast and Furious from this trial is nothing less than a travesty of justice.
And something more, something darker, something that needs to come into the light . . .
EVERY TIME a “gun violence” case is heard the weapons chain of ownership is discussed. I dare them to lift that rug. I dare them to show us what’s been swept under it just once.
Exactly my thoughts! The orgin of the guns purchase and every micro-movement it ever took is almost always brought into court no matter what. If F&F didn’t screw the Government they wouldn’t try and suppress the evidence. Its so relevent to the case that I have no idea how a Judge could seriously grant the request to suppress unless he’s being blackmailed or given a nice job by the Government in return.
You’re both assuming the defense won’t cut a deal with the feds to keep things under wraps.
Since when? Unless there is a charge the defendant had a stolen weapon, or there is a question as to how a defendant obtained possession of a firearm that is known to have belonged to someone else, the charge of murder requires only that the prosecution put a particular gun into the hands of the defendant (admissions, fingerprints, or arrest while in possession work just fine), and proof that that gun was used to kill the victim. Tracing the weapon’s ownership–which is rarely successful as it is–is irrelevant to a murder charge, as it is not an element of the crime committed.
That would be true If the weapon was loan to a friend for legal law abiding use, however these weapons were given to the Mexican cartel members By the ATF which had these weapons in lockdown and inventory. That is conspiracy to commit murder in any state. The Obama administration knew darn well what these weapons were going to be used for once delivered to the Mexican cartel it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out That they were going to use them to hurt kill and maim people with. This would go under conspiracy to commit murder charges by the administration. End of story!
How is that not going to be grounds for their appeal???
Depending on which District Court / Appellate circuit the case is in an appeal could be very telling. If this is say in the 5th Circuit (All federal courts in TX, LA, MS) there could be some very interested and conservative Judges. If its in the 9th Circuit (AZ, CA, etc.) then its a toss up since its a very liberal court but if its in the DC Circuit well then it will definitely get covered up. Any Judge that sits on the DC Circuit is vying for a higher appointment, its a golden ticket to SCOTUS, or top positions in the DOJ and Congress.
If it stays in the arena of the 9th circus, it has a superb chance of being overturned.
It will stay in the district where the case is tried unless and until it goes to the Supreme court.
Let’s put this in layman’s terms, Suppose I had a friend Who was going through a divorce and he wanted to get rid of his wife. I knew that that’s what he planned to do with my gun that I loaned him or her. When that person went to trial They would trace the gun back to me And as soon as the proof was proven that I had loaned the firearm to the defendant to commit the crime At the very least I would get Reckless endangerment charges and federal firearms charges. At the very most I could get murder 2 which is 25 to life. So how the elite aristocrats progressive liberals in the White House can get away with this just goes to show you how out of control our government really is. Just remember one thing vote in November.
It might well be. But then it will be someone else’s problem to worry about. Out govt has a strong track record of kicking problematic cans down the road in areas beyond the economy and interest rates.
This is the perversion of the law when administered by a Corrupt Judicial department Managed by corrupt, politicians
Yes, so was allowing crack to come from South America and Mexico into the U.S. to fund the Contras….nothing new here…carry on.
They killed people. It doesn’t really matter what they killed them with or how they got it. I’d still love to see the feds get some fire to the feet about the origin of these weapons however.
You don’t think it matters that the weapons were provided by your gov’t in an effort to drum up “evidence” that would be used to curtail, or even eliminate, your 2nd amendment protections?
To the murder charge? Not at all. The government is not on trial. For example, wold it make any difference at all to the prosecution or the defense if the defendant had bought the gun from a known gun trafficker? If the trafficker was on trial for aiding and abetting or conspiracy to commit murder, sure, but not otherwise. And if the trafficker was on trial, the odds are very high that he would be tried separately.
i for one don’t, do you think it does? in this trial because that’s what this ruling is about, and not anything else. I think this is one of the major reasons the F&F coverup is so effective, because the majority of people clamoring for accountability are completely irrational. it doesn’t make one iota of difference in the question of the shooter’s guilt where they got the weapon. do you actually think that brian terry’s murderers deserve any measure of leniency because the weapon came from the feds?
If I had illegally provided you with a weapon that you then used to kill a law enforcement officer, would you expect my part in all that not to matter?
I know it won’t win me many friends, but I’m ok with this.
Yes, this is a great opportunity to bring wrongdoing to light. Yes, tangentially related cases are a great opportunity to bring out the truth to the world. Yes, those responsible for intentionally introducing weapons into the criminal flow should be held accountable.
But. What does the source of a weapon have to do with its use in a murder? Unless it was planted on you and you are being framed, you still had a choice and chose to commit murder. You are responsible.
You’re right, and so is the judge- the source of the gun has no relevance to the murder it was used to commit. Why should the a-hole who killed Agent Terry use F&F to deflect blame for murder?
This subject should see sunshine, but not in this trial, and not to benefit the defense of this dirtbag.
So it’s the gun’s fault this time?
It seems like a reasonable ruling, it’s a murder trial.
I have to disagree with the author on this one. The judge’s decision is the right one. The question in the trial is who killed Brian Terry. It’s not who allowed weapons to go walking so that they would eventually end up in the hands of people who murdered Brian Terry. That’s a different trial that, sadly, will never take place.
Andrew and Katy:
Generally speaking I agree with you; however, two things.
As pointed out above, firearm history is often included in trial evidence so this is odd to begin with.
Also, as F&F was a gun-running operation, I can theorize that there was intelligence passed to the bad guys as well as firearms. In which case I can speculate that Brian Terry’s contact with the bad guys and subsequent murder might not have been purely by accident … perhaps not deliberately by being targeted, but perhaps because the bad guys were told the area would be clear but the patrol route or schedule changed on the fly.
I’m not usually a tinfoil-hat type but this just feels wrong. If it’s not relevant somehow, why not let the defense present the F&F matetial and the relevance come out in the trial?
Basic and universal rule of evidence: only relevant evidence is admissible. And the judge gets to decide what is relevant.
“And something more, something darker, something that needs to come into the light . . .”
As a young man I worked for a sister agency that was riddled from top to bottom by Mafia dirt. By the time I left most of the area exec guys had been arrested for criminal activity of one sort or the other. With regard to F&F you can smell the corruption. Scurrying about like cockroaches when the light shines upon them. IMHO the Federal gubberment guys have been tainted. Too much money. Too much temptation. And too much fear also. I believe it goes right up to the highest levels in Washington DC in both the Executive and Judicial branches. And as such, NO ONE IS GOING TO REALLY INVESTIGATE AND TELL THE WHOLE STORY. NOBODY.
How about you? TTAG is willing to pursue this story as far as it goes, as long as it takes. If there’s anyone (well armed) out there who wants to keep digging, it’s game on. [email protected]
What a remarkable reversal of the usual emphasis on “How did the murderer get his hands on the gun?” Where there is apparent guilt of the Federal Government, the rules have to change. I advise having appeals prepared early.
What emphasis would that be? The gun didn’t kill anybody. The only time such evidence is relevant is when physical evidence is lacking and circumstantial evidence is necessary to connect the defendant to the gun.
What about the additional, related charges such as illegal possession of a weapon, possession of a stolen gun, possession of a weapon by a forbidden person, etc.? Or are those administrative violations customarily dropped in a “real crime” trial, and are only enforced against the Shaneen Allen type of “criminal”?
How convenient for the Government to not prosecute these “gun-control” violations where their hands are bloody.
I’m at a point where I just don’t care anymore. First who in their right mind, badge or otherwise, regardless what management directs, brings a beanbag armament to a cartel gun fight? Followed by a management so devoid of leadership, one wonders how they are employable. Finally when a stooge parachutes in to explain the incompetence of the government and why it should not be disclosed…that’s really all you need to know.
This is addressed to the people that think it is great stuff to have someone tell you that you can’t mention something. This particular something isn’t random, it could end up being important to the case.
Firearm manufacturers and gun store owners are routinely “mentioned” in cases involving firearms. Why is it okay to mention the source of guns in those cases but not when it could protect corrupt feds? Yeah we all know the answer.
No it is not the fault of any of the guns and it should not turn into a trial specifically about F&F. The issue is that it can’t even be mentioned when it may or may not have relevance to the case as well as the blatant hypocrisy of showing the lack accountability for federal agents committing crimes.
If it was not a government agency behind F&F you can bet not only would it be mentioned it would become a focal point of the case and many would end up in jail for it.
If and when members of the ATF are charged with a crime, it will most certainly be relevant. Until then, not so much.
Judge Bury.
Really?
What irony.
Oh, my. Well, once again they hand out fodder to lose their broader argument. (It doesn’t hurt that they have a losing argument.)
Ever time the ATF or judicial decisions are used as fodder, just go full Church Lady…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm3zV1pCTQ8
Because these positions are not truth or law, but …. convenience. Every time. Don’t give an inch.
So, when the anti-gun folk talk about how guns move around, leading to violence and death… “… you mean like the guns that those drug-running whack-jobs used to kill Brian Terry?”
And when the ATF talks about how it’s job is to keep guns out of the wrong hands… “… you mean like the guns that were used to kill Brian Terry? The ones from Fast and Furious, that you moved to keep out of the trail of his killers? Not so interested then…” (Same move for any third party that refers to the ATF as responsible, uses their numbers, or so on. “Oh, those guys? Not so interested in your agenda when it points to them…”)
And when they point to any judge or decision… “…you mean like the decision to keep the origin of the guns that were used to kill Brian Terry out of that murder trial? Unlike very other gun use trial ever? Not sure these decisions are balanced, or based in law.”
The prospect that they can seat a jury of 12 presumably intelligent adults from the general area, who do NOT ALREADY know that these guns came from the ATF is scary beyond words.
Well isn’t that a load of s*** crap BS! Our president laid to Weapons in the hands of the cartel members who killed this fella, and now there’s going to be no repercussions for what President Obama or President Obama as I like to call him That’s a travesty of justice is what that is There should be charges brought up against the ATF for funding an illicit illegal gun transfer program known to the public as fast and furious they couldn’t even come up with their own damn name they had to copy it from some bull crap TV program! We the people are so tired of this president and his ability To not be tried on any kind of charges for criminal negligence! I serious change ladies and gentleman has to happen in this country come November We all have to vote and make sure our voices are heard so we are not sitting in another 8 year Stu of crap misbelief and lies! I’m really getting tired Of hearing how innocent people have been killed by these guns that President Obama shipped over to Mexico and yet he doesn’t get any type of criminal charges against him or the administration that he runs, ridiculous!
Maybe y’all could stop signing your lives away to the government and thinking it’s not just flat out suicidal. If you haven’t noticed, they don’t care, you’re expendable. More over, in that I don’t ask for your “service”, and your expendability being so glaringly obvious and yet you continue to expose yourselves, I have no sympathy for you. I’m forced to contribute my earnings at a point of a gun, no one forces you to sign up. Willing slaves.
Iran-Contra anyone?
Obviously sir you have never served your country And had friends and family of yours died on the battlefield for this constitution for we the people Not you the rich and privileged such as Obama would have you believe I take great Record in your statement and find that it’s just plain Sucks as an attitude of an American citizen and for you to come on here this site and leave that propaganda BS is amazing A US Navy SEAL retired got a job as a US Border Patrol agent and gave His life defending our country against hundreds of thousands of who knows who pouring into our country and was murdered by our President of the United States that is enough you should be quaking in your fricking boots boy! You need to learn to respect people Obviously you weren’t taught right when you were growing up That’s the problem with today’s kids in this country retards from the get go!
I think you are misreading/misunderstanding thx855. He’s pointing out that our government doesn’t care about you, about the Border Patrol, about the military, and I think he’s right. They’ll throw anyone under the bus or turn their backs on anyone. Ask Jay Dobyns or other ATF whistleblowers. There were some in F&F.
I agree with the judge’s ruling. The defense, not being able to blame the victim for causing his own death, would love to blame the Feds and thereby deflect guilt from the Mexican murderers so they can walk or get a lighter sentence. No judge should let that happen.
All the ATF dickwads who walked the guns to Mexico should be called to account for their crimes, but not in this forum.
One of the guys pleaded guilty to first degree murder and gets 30 years followed by supervised release while the founder of Silk Road gets life? Where is the justice there?
Another crime committed by the White House’s “just us” department.
So you think a judge in a murder trial is going to go out of there way to investigate government scandal and subsequent cover up? How cute.
It’s not pertinent to the trial, I’d probably wouldn’t allow it either.
There is a little thing called Corruption.
That kill the messenger movie was a good true crime flick about what our government has done to get what they want, u.s. citizens and other humans on earth be damned. This is such a similar story to me, epic coverup, and no good investigative reporter to dig up the truth about the infamous f and f operation gone bad. I hope a hero steps up and digs up 10% of what happened during f and f.
Nixon wasn’t this target rich with scandal and abuse of power. Woodward and Bernstein didn’t have this kind of open trail to follow, and it was only when a federal employee violated his security oath that they got anything. Corruption at the White House and DoJ, and BATF, not to mention the illegal arms dealing. You can throw a stone at this administration and not hit something corrupt. The corrupted media snoozes.
Woodward and Bernstein were liberal hacks…
The REAL reason Nixon was brought down was a grudge against him by “deep throat”–Mark Felt. You see, Mark Felt expected to be appointed FBI director. When Nixon appointed Patrick Gray instead, the vendetta was on…
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