The way I read it, Officer Darren Wilson’s account of the Michael Brown shooting paints a picture of a pissing contest. While it looks like a good shoot, I don’t think Officer Wilson did much in the way of de-escalating the situation before it spiraled out of control. Once Brown mouthed off, Officer Wilson came down on Brown like a ton of bricks, including, by his own admission, swearing at him. I reckon Wilson’s behavior set something in motion he couldn’t control – until he could, leaving Brown dead on the pavement. One thing is for sure: the Ferguson police failed to follow protocol in the shooting’s aftermath . . .
When Ferguson, Mo., police officer Darren Wilson left the scene of the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, the officer returned to the police station unescorted, washed blood off his hands and placed his recently fired pistol into an evidence bag himself.
What’s more (or less), investigators failed to tape the first interview with Wilson. As washingtonpost.com points out – several times – that’s not the done thing for officer-involved shootings.
The bungled post-shooting forensics and unrecorded interview don’t necessarily cast doubt on Wilson’s story. But they do reveal a highly unprofessional police department. And that tells you something about the Ferguson PD’s ability to serve and protect its community in a way that engenders trust and cooperation.
Don’t get me wrong: I’m not hinting at institutional racism, or trying to remove responsibility for Brown’s death from Brown himself or Officer Wilson. A Ferguson PD that’s UN multicultural and Mayberry RFD friendly would still butt heads with some seriously bad actors. I’m simply saying that the fish stinks from the head down.
There’s no indication of that the PD’s taking disciplinary action against the officers who let Wilson drive himself to the station, wash off, dump his gun in a bag and speak to investigators without recording the conversation. If a Chief of Police lets his or her officers get away with sloppy police work then sloppy police work he or she shall have. Mistakes will be made. Some may prove fatal, for the police and the public. That is all.
It must be nice to have the armchair luxery of second guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking. I love how you guys who have never worn the uniform know all about the job.
“YOU WEREN’T THERE, MAN!”
Why even bother having a protocol? Just make it up in the heat of the moment, or not. Everyone will forgive you because, you know, stuff happens. When the S hits the fan you fall back on your training, or lack thereof.
This blog has become a bunch of wing nuts and cop block fans. Most couldn’t wear the uniform.
I certainly couldn’t wear the uniform because I am not a psychopath who shoots dogs, people, and drives recklessly with impunity.
Pretty much, Jeff.
That whole IQ ceiling thing would disqualify many. Congrats for falling into the group that “makes” the cut.
truth in the name and not in the content.
I’m getting sick of hearing that IQ cap garbage. Yes, I know it’s a real thing, and that’s ridiculous too, but it’s not an industry standard. In fact, I haven’t heard of any departments outside of the original story which have anything like that. In the Seattle area, many departments don’t want to look at applicants who don’t have a four year college degree.
This is going to sound like bragging, which is why I haven’t posted it the first hundred times I’ve seen the IQ cap brought up, but I actually took the Mensa entrance test (which is an IQ test) and passed. My ASVAB test scores were damned high, too, and I signed as infantry anyway. Does that make me better than anyone? Of course not. But it didn’t stop me from getting hired as a cop, either.
“don’t have a four year college degree.
Not taking away from your point, but having a four year college degree is no guarantee of above average IQ. It’s a bureaucratic criterion that has nothing to do with ability to be a cop.
Having been in law enforcement, I can say from personal observation that the IQ meme has some merit. Is it a global hiring practice nationwide? I have no way of knowing. But, it is a thing that exists at least somewhat.
I recall many conversations with the TO on my department (who administered the applicant testing) where he expressed frustration at the low scores that were accepted and that he was instructed to lob off the top third as “they won’t stick around.”
So, rather than “best and brightest,” the hiring trend does seem to be at least “accept mediocrity.” That’s CERTAINLY true in firearms proficiency; it would be no surprise to find it in other areas of the screening process.
@ JR in NC, except you fail to realize that IQ tests have racial biasies… Meaning IQ scoring is either complete BS or proves racial dominance theory correct. Take your pick. When examined, IQ scores prove our stereotypes about racial intelligence true. That’s right, blacks always score the lowest, followed by Latinos, followed by whites, followed by Asians, followe by Jews as being the most intelligent. Is this really true? Or is the IQ standards simply wrong?
Wow! A cop hater and a racist, you really are special.
Senator, have you ever heard the phrase “correlation does not imply causation”?
Yes, it is true that IQ correlates with race. It also correlates with income, and many other things. Ultimately, what they found out is that when all other factors are accounted for, what it correlates with is the number of calories in children nutrition. If you don’t eat enough food, or you eat crappy food, your brain doesn’t develop as much.
@19th , exactly my point. I’m not arguing that race correlates intelligence. I’m implying that the IQ standard is outdated and ineffective and therefore should not be applied to real intelligence levels. As you suggest yourself, mere caloric intake can contribute to differentauls in scores. So, would you hire personell based on caloric intake?
“@ JR in NC, except you fail to realize that IQ tests have racial biasies”
What in the ever-loving HELL are you talking about?
Nowhere in my post was I did I even mention IQ testing. I was talking about nascent intelligence, though on second thought, the paradox of trying to do that in the present context is apparent.
Senator, I did not say that IQ is meaningless. It’s certainly not – it correlates pretty well with the capacity to do challenging intellectual tasks. In that sense, if a job requires such, requiring a certain IQ level makes perfect sense.
The intent of a 4yr degree in most any business is/was to prevent hiring of immature 18yr old dumbasses (see also the dead bonehead from Ferguson). Unfortunately today most 22yr olds with a college degree got a BS in BS and are largely as immature as they were at 18.
I like how Robert Farago thinks he’s smarter than a grand jury. Interesting… He’s always arguing against statism and the “I know better than you” politicking of the Left yet he seems to employ the same set of logic at his will…..
Farago treats cops like Shannon Watts treats gun owners. “We dont want to get rid of police, we just want more common sense policing”. Which, in reality, means he wants police neutered and unable to do our jobs because of bureaucratic red tape. Anti-police agitprop, right Bob?
Wow! That is quite the arrogance!
I like facts so, could you please tell me exactly what you believe Ofc. Wilson said that was so antagonistic and confrontational as to cause citizen Brown to reach through the driver’s side window of a police car, assault and officer of the law, and attempt to remove the officer’s side arm? As I understand it, citizen Brown was in the middle of the road and was directly ordered to the sidewalk by Ofc. Wilson.
Let’s try a little exercise. If I am a sloppy LEO with distain for those in the community I patrol, driving down the road and I see a large, black, male with a handful of Swisher’s walking down the center of the road, I’m going to order the jaywalker to get to the side of the road. In my rudest voice I say, “Hey lard-ass! Get your black butt over onto the sidewalk before I arrest you for jaywalking! Do it now, douche bag!” Is this language provoking enough to make you want to kill me?
I’m going to assume you know the following facts:
1. attempting to kill someone is wrong and against the law,
2. assaulting a LEO is stupid and against the law, and
3. you would be facing the possibility of being shot to death if the LEO felt there was an imminent threat to his life or the safety of the citizens of the community.
Having these ideas in the back of your mind, are you still willing to assault a LEO by reaching into a police cruiser, start throwing punches, and try and take the gun right off of the LEOs hip just because of our conjectured example of what a piss-poor cop might have said?
If you say yes, then you think like a criminal thug and are more likely to end up dead or in prison than if you would have said no.
Stick to the facts when writing your stories. State upfront when you are stating an opinion and don’t try to pass your opinion off as fact.
Respectfully, Rich.
Really? Where, exactly, is he saying the GJ got it wrong? He is saying the procedures AFTER the shoot were piss poor, and evidence says they were. Or do you have evidence to the contrary? Lets see it. nOr is it simply that you don’t like cops and wanted to see Wilson get burned? Enlighten us.
I’m just curious (and lazy today):
Does anyone know what the toxicology results were on Brown?
Was he high on some substance, or just high on his own charismatic, invincible omnipotence?
Yes Brown was very high 0n weed , high count in his blood , and they think he had used other drugs in past too.
Ahhh…so he was charismatic, invincible, omnipotent, and delusional.
Winning!
“JR in NC, except you fail to realize that IQ tests have racial biasies”
What in the ever-loving HELL are you talking about? Nowhere in my post did I mention IQ testing. I’m talking about nascent intelligence, though it dawns on me that there is a certain paradox in trying to do that in the present context.
Save your BS for somewhat ignorant of the world enough to buy into off-topic nonsense rants about nothing.
Edit: Not sure what happened; was replying to this post:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/robert-farago/ferguson-pd-botched-brown-investigation/#comment-2010668
“Have never worn the uniform?” Seriously?
Police training – and ‘the uniform’ – do not convey any special kind of discernment or otherworldly powers. Police officers are public employees – nothing more, nothing less. There are competent ones and there are misfits. And we, as citizens, have every right to question our public employees.
BTW: your point would be more impressive if you knew how to use spell check.
+1
So you’re the spelling police? Voice to text on a phone. You get what you get. When was the last time you had someone, at work, punch you or kick you? So yeah. You don’t get it and neither do the other cop haters. The posts here are getting further and further from guns on the truth.
@dano — Spare us the sob story, pal. You’re not even the only one in harm’s way. Far from it, in fact. There are truck drivers in the Army that see more combat than the infantry grunts. Hell, I’ll even go so far as to bet my bottom dollar that I’VE probably seen more action than you as a jet mechanic in the Navy. If you don’t like the spotlight being shown on your fellow officers then I suggest that you start policing your own — FOR ONCE — and stop defending bad actors and piss-poor police work in general. Otherwise, we start doing it for you because you’ve proven yourselves wholly incapable of doing the job yourselves.
The citizens are always the first on the scene and are victimized more often and in far more horrific ways than the police are, ever have been, or ever will be. Get over yourself, please.
We regularly commend the good deeds of the police on the blog. If you don’t see that then 1.) you’re obviously not a regular reader and are simply ignorant or 2.) you’re deliberately ignoring it just so you have an excuse to piss and moan about how — as the public face of your government no less — are under the microscope which is exactly how it should be in the first place anyway. Don’t like it? Tough shit. Turn in your badger, your gun, and hang up that uniform because you obviously can’t hack it, either.
No, the only one wondering away from the truth about guns IS YOU. Dot. Period. End of story.
@Exedrine – “I’ve probably seen more action than you”-
Yes, the unending childish Who’s Dicks Bigger contest over who’s “seen more shit” continuously fought on the internet. Mature.
Well, said. Shine a bright enough light on corruption and bad or incompetent procedures and the you-couldn’t-possibly-understand apologists start singing in three-part harmony. Spare us, please.
Yes, we should never question the armed agents of the state given the power to enact deadly force upon the people. I mean, that’s what freedom is all about, right?
Well… As someone who “wears the uniform,” the mistakes that were made quite frankly shouldn’t have been. Regardless of whether the jurisdiction is NYC or Mayberry, death investigations need to be handled with the upmost thoroughness and attention to detail. Letting him wash his hands is an FTO level mistake…
As for the “cop block” comment, TTAG’s reaction to the no bill has been anything but cop blockish. I think the blog has made it pretty apparent that it was a case of self defense
I wish I’d read this before my tirade. I appreciate your insight.
@Marcus (Aurelius) Payne: Even though your previous comment might have been misdirected, it was a right and there are many to whom it should hit home.
I tend to agree. Some significant unforced errors made. These errors don’t really do much to change my opinion of what probably happened but they shouldn’t have been made.
Would someone please enlighten me what evidence may have been compromised by Wilson washing his hands and placing the gun into the evidence bag? The fact that Wilson and Brown were the only actors and that only one gun was used is not disputed.
Chain of evidence was broken. According to the left that means Wilson is guilty of crucifying MLKjr, don’t you know!
“Would someone please enlighten me what evidence may have been compromised by Wilson washing his hands and placing the gun into the evidence bag?”
Gun shot residue analysis looks at ratio’s of residue on different hands and different portions of hands, not just to see if it is present.
Washing his hands pretty much destroyed that evidence, or at least its probative value. It would be really good to have physical evidence that could possible show which hand, how and where (on the gun) Wilson was holding it when it fired. As many shots as he fired…may not help much, but it is the principle that counts.
Cops are trained specifically to not allow shooting suspects to wash their hands before GSR samples can be taken. Perhaps they were taken before he washed his hands in this case; I sure don’t know. But, the implication is that perhaps he washed his hands before GSR and other possible evidence (Brown’s skin, etc…that would show a struggle).
As for bagging his own gun, that probably does not really matter at much, except that perhaps one does not know what was done to the weapon between the shooting and bagging it. It should have been taken from him immediately after the shooting (that is, after the he was “secured”). So, it’s probably the TIMING of the bagging more than that he dropped it into an evelop himself.
Hope this helps….there’s a LOT more to it than just showing if they were in the car together. The physical evidence can help paint parts of the story as to what actually happened while they were together in the car.
Are your asserting that officer Wilson did, in fact, follow protocol? Or is your point that the Ferguson P.D. gets a pass for some reason?
It doesn’t matter if we could or would wear “The Uniform™,” if a police force acts unprofessionaly they need to be called on it, and the right to criticize is not reserved solely to other officers.
I’m guessing that you are an officer yourself, based in your comments. You seem to have the belief that police are in some way elite while using that apparent premise to rebuke criticism that a P.D. broke from proper procedure, when in fact they did just that. There is something wrong with seeing a certain group of people as elite while simultaneously using that eliteness as a basis to excuse them from the obligations and duty that elite status is based on.
Police do not earn our respect by wearing a certain outfit or wearing a shiny piece of metal, or carrying a gun. They don’t even earn our respect by going willfully into dangerous situations or neighborhood where they are hated by default. The resurrect of the public is earned only by maintaining a high level of professionalism while doing the above.
” . . .There is something wrong with seeing a certain group of people as elite while simultaneously using that eliteness as a basis to excuse them from the obligations and duty that elite status is based on. . .”
Although it was usually stated in an artless and inarticulate manner, many citizens in Ferguson are saying pretty much the same thing. You had to listen for it, but amid the hands-up-don’t-shoot dissonance, were people who who felt that, regardless of what happened on that street, Wilson was going to walk away free and clear. Their complaints were about police practices and not necessarily about the shooting itself.
If only those were the voices granted a national stage.
There’s an alternative. Not being mentioned by the media, or the “civil rights leaders” or by the public. The cops could ignore thugs and criminals like Brown, the Obama Administration could turn them into heroes and victims… Oh, wait, that’s already being done. Neighborhoods are being destroyed, businesses are being burned, people are being assaulted and shot, jobs are being destroyed (to be replaced by welfare, so no big loss).
My neighbor wore the uniform when he was a male stripper in college.
Dano’s right. This blog has become a joke. The Monday morning armchair quarterbacking on here is worse than the analysists on NFL.com. Rodgers or Brady throws a few bad throws and all the sudden the season is out the window until next Sunday when they’re spot on and suddenly there’s nothing stopping them from the Super Bowl. Look, if officer Wilson had been a civilian, Farago and the rest of the cop bashers would be worshipping this guy as if he was an All American Hero. RF and everyone on here has an opinion, guess how much your opinion is worth? Jack Shit. Esspecailly comming from people with no training and experiance, and a general ignorance of reality on general.
What a curious comment. So far three LEO’s (one retired) and four attorneys have posted in this thread. At least one of the attorneys has vast experience examining LEO testimony and PD procedures. The lack of experience or knowledge you allege is a misplaced assumption. I actively support (and observe) my local PD, and they are excellent. 140 cops policing a township of 27,000. They haven’t killed anyone in years, though they have apprehended quite a few armed robbers. If I make a comment condemning police procedure, it is usually because I’m astounded by some of the PDs around the country, especially the propensity to rush their closing with the suspect, the rush to end a situation through the use of gun fire. I’m very pro good cop, and anti those that shoot too quickly because they get needlessly close to the suspect without thinking. Yes, most of that criticism is really directed at management.
I really can’t understand why a critique of after-shooting procedure flaws bothers you. If you are a supervising LEO you will have conducted the same sort of “Monday morning quarterbacking” yourself many times.
Right…. Because you should believe all these people on the internet at face value. Just like how I’m a Senator. Total logic fail.
A lot of the regular commenters and post writers here know each other out in the “world”, and several of them are rather well known from other venues. Perhaps you should buy a clue since you clearly don’t have one otherwise. And no, I am not a cop or a lawyer, though I have interacted with some of each over the years.
And fruther more if this same sort of scrutiny was applied to a civilian DGU he would be a no questions asked hero and you’d have nothing to say right? Yeah- Monday morning quarter backing.
Wow, you really do have your panties in a twist. Whats wrong? You get busted for improper procedure, or corruption?
Remember that cops are civilians too, but for regular citizen defensive shootings, the standard is lower in terms of things like de-escalation and so forth. Whereas one might be able to legitimately say a cop should have tried to de-escalate a situation when they didn’t, with a normal person who doesn’t do that, it is more understandable because they may not have that kind of training.
Wow. My department is trying to get back to 131 officers, but as of the last census our population was somewhere north of 89,000.
Yes, the ratio is good. That’s one reason why there is little violent crime, and not much robbery. Oddly, though a suburb, we have the third largest PD in PA, after Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. On the other hand, we border Philadelphia, and that is where most (nearly all) burglars and robbers here come from, so patrolling is active and the detective division is fairly deep. The residents are, on average, well-educated, affluent, and cooperative with police. I think in my neighborhood alone three households have used firearms to help apprehend would-be burglars or fleeing felons. These events discourage hoods, who seem to tell their friends “don’t go there.” The PD is supportive of armed homeowners and those who carry with licenses. Still, for the LEOs it’s a good gig, who are well-paid to police fairly civilized residents. The major push is to keep hard drugs away from the kids.
Expecting an officer to follow protocol isn’t Monday morning quarterbacking. It’s called bring a professional
Right, because shooting somebody and trying to cover their asses up means you know what it takes to “wear the uniform”. Because shooting a protester in the head and not even filing a incident report is stellar uniform performance, perfect city representation!
Give me a fvcking break, you boot licking cocksucker. Its called accountability. Learn the fvcking meaning of the word.
I hope there are more riots.
Wow, lc. You e mail your mother with those fingers?
Hahahaha!!!! Nice.
Oh did I offend your delicate sensibilities?
Welcome to adulthood, sonny.
^ Using profanity as a crutch is something adolescents do, not adults.
@ LC Yeah, adulthood means using prophaniry..,, perhaps you need an education…..
To the thin skinned sissies here,
I’m a former infantryman and scout. Profanity is a way of life for me. Dont like it, GTFO. Simple.
How do you expect to be able to stomach the idea of defending your bill of rights with force if necessary, with grueling guerrilla warfare, if you are unable to handle somebody saying “baaadddd wurds!”?
Grow up
I love how you guys who have never worn the uniform know all about the job.”
Yeah well I DID wear the uniform and I DID do the job. Loved it, best job in the world. However, I have read stuff like this on several sites. NOt everything on the Internet is true but when you see the same stuff in several non related places well, that is what is referred to as a clue by those who have worn the uniform.
If the info in the opening post is correct, it calls into question the professionalism of the entire department at all phases from hiring to retirement. I think shooting unarmed suspects should engender greater scrutiny and skepticism than armed. Don’t really see the reason for it in most of the cases. I don’t know if Wilson escalated the situation but I do know that police generally do not like their authority challenged in ANY way. It leads to bad results. Anyhow, yes I have some reservations about the investigation and Wilsons actions generally.
I find this Psycho Cop/Cop Hater debate a bit disappointing in regard to the generalities used by the extremes of both sides. Did you guys buy the broad brushes you are using to paint the other side from Bloomberg? This is nutz. I don’t know if it’s an illustration of hypocrisy or human nature. Maybe there’s no difference.
Yes, FPD did botch this, they took two months to not charge Wilson for this legit shoot. Glad the “press” figured that out.
I read that WAPO article this am. Your bbq, here, RF, and I am a big fan.
On this Day I say thank you for your unrelenting courage in expressing your opinions, on a wide range of gun culture related topics.
Me, personally, I am gonna let more experienced leos and attorneys weigh in nationally about state of the art best practices and standards in small police forces, and that will take time.
I simply dont trust WAPO to tell the truth, and those 5000 pages released by prosecutor are too much for this newb to evaluate.
Not to go too far OT, but maybe since the SRM™ won’t do it, maybe it would help if more bloggers point to root causes, and the inequalities foisted on urban black communities in selective gun rights law, and legal permitting, by their masters on the Progtard Plantations.
That both speaks to one of the Truths About Guns, and simply ignores the Narrative, that is so easy for the cool kids to regugitate, rather than be brave, and look at the facts.
Here is an example: http://www.calgunlaws.com/il-chicago-concealed-carry-gun-permit-law-disarms-poor-blacks/
With respect to Illinois’s concealed carry law, it was mind boggling watching the bill evolve in the last couple of weeks before it passed. Chicago Democrats kept pushing to increase the fee, from $40 to $80 to $150, while increasing the training hours from 8 to 16. Sure seemed like an intentional effort to disarm the poor and minorities. But, you know, big city Democrats can’t be racists.
I looked into getting an non-resident Illinois permit. Adding up the costs I stopped when I was closing in on $1,000. For a slightly younger me that would have been a month’s pay. Party of the poor my fuzzy ***.
Slightly off-topic: JeffR, did you have Greenhalgh for Criminal Procedure. As I go over the transcripts from the GJ, I can’t help but hear his voice….
they also forgot to make Wilson go and kneel in front of St Mike’s parents and allow them to dole out his punishment for killing their college student.
Robert, you are covering this from the exact same stance as your former employers. You preach at your readers, stating your opinion as gospel. You try to come off as impartial and unbiased, but react with emotion and hatred for law enforcement.
Your site has the highest readership of all the gun blogs, and you have a powerful podium from which you can spout your political half truths. The politcal post on this site have gotten so out of hand, and have turned more than a few of you regular readers away from TTAG.
I know that you may not really care what anyone thinks of your stance. However, I for one, can no longer stomach reading your posts. I truly enjoy reading this sites coverage of actual guns, gear, and training, but those have become so few and far between. I am truly dissapointed, and will no longer be a reader.
Happy Thanksgiving.
I love how you take any sort of criticism of law enforcement as outright hatred. God forbid we actually hold armed agents of the state accountable.
Agree. A lot of bad cop sand bad departments get too many free passes. Some of the local po-po have taken drugs, beaten wives, shot animals, violated numerous traffic laws, and others.
Josh, I’ve been reading here since aboug the second month TTAG started. What I like about TTAG is what the mission statement says, covering all aspects of the gun culture. The gun reviews here are best for me because they are un-biased, and from the perspective of what a relatively new user would find useful. Plus the wide range of opinion by more experienced users, that is so generously shared, gunsmiths, street cops, operators, trainers.
That is not unique, however, for as you know you can gets all.sorts of reviews, ranging from youtubers, to really specialized sites, elsewhere.
What is unique, is how RF and staff have managed the dance of aggregation, and linking, along with content from original thinking, their own, and others. Liberal writers like Dan Baum, outside, and up-and-comer gunners like Nick, Tyler, and RF himself, to salty old dogs ho have forgotten more about guns, and life, than I even know I want to know, like Ralph, Dean, the Rabbi,, and others.
I don’t always agree with opinions here, but for sure I dont want to jam mine down anyone’s throat or delude myself into thinking there should be a “party line” on any one topic. There is WAY too much of that elsewhere in the blogosphere, and anti-gunners would like nothing better than to imagine that TTAG is some narrow group of true believers. For then we would not be so much a threat to their own thought-police state online. Nor interesting, as proven by page views.
TTAG is pretty diverse, but its all about choices, not political correct-ness. When someone says to me, “if you wont agree, then I am going to take my football and go home”, my initial reaction is, “don’t let the door hit you in thee a$$ on the way out.
In your case, Josh, I hope you wiill be back. And ideally with a well thought out point by point rebuttal to RF if you think he is wrong. Thats how we roll here.
P.S. my hunch is RF is crazy. Not because of his caliber choices, for everyone knows .40s&w is the one to rule them all, but no, I mean crazy like a fox….and doesn’t mind taking an unorthodox subject up, for sake of generating conversation…so, stick around. Have a cigar and a cold brew and dont take it so personal…
Id call that a Publius win in my book, I think some of the best discussion happens here because of the varying opinions and willingness to share them.
Don’t let the door hit you on your way out. RF’s blog-start your own pro-cop statist blog. Your hero’s are doing a bang-up job in Ferguson the last several days. I know I’m on my own in my town too. It also seems a low IQ and an inferiority complex go hand in hand with a lot of PO-leece…
When you have law enforcement act like a goddamned occupation force, you are damned right that people will find it unappealing. I am getting sick to fvcking death of people like you making excuses for police brutality and the ill treatment of your fellow american just because they have less in their bank account than you do or dont live in a 3k square foot home.
You view it as hatred? I view it as guarding the crown jewel of liberty jealously.
Go piss off. And I hope your thanksgiving is rotten.
Riddle me this, LC: Ferguson is more than 60% black. In such a case there is no reason why they should not have good citizen supervision of the PD, both through electing a mayor that keeps the force professional, and through direct citizen contact with the township administration.
Why has this not come to be? How can a minority majority be so unhappy with its PD? My experience where I live is that a good force requires active citizen participation, projection of citizen values onto the PD. Why doesn’t this work in Ferguson?
Probably because “garbage in = garbage out” applies in this situation, which is why I’ve always argued that the citizens are certainly accountable.
Of course, dont expect much citizenship in a area rife with impoverishment and crime. Which came first? the chicken or the egg?
So, you are saying blacks are incompetent to be involved in their own governance. Okey dokey, then. Who are you wanting to put in charge of them?
Poverty and crime guarentees bad govt, not race. Lack of good jobs is far more dangerous than many seem to realize, when young men feel hopeless and forgotten they tend to get violent. I think that Monday night could have turned into a bloodbath that may have ignited the country. But the question always seems to be one of race “who should be poor?” Rather than “how many should be poor”.
We have too much poverty and if we can’t come up with some decent jobs soon things could get a lot worse…high crime and rage exaggerate the effects of bad policing in my view.
You have hit on the precise formula with which islam has always perpetuated itself. Real humans tend to refuse to accept this and war against those who try to force it on them. Problem is, in America, those suffering under this anti-human ideology have been convinced to war against the people who are trying to STOP what you describe. Leftist ideology ALWAYS lies, it ALWAYS bring poverty and misery and starvation and death to those it deceives.
STOP SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING LEFTIST IDEOLOGY!!!!!!!!!!
“Leftist ideology ALWAYS lies, it ALWAYS bring poverty and misery and starvation and death to those it deceives.”
As opposed to what? right ideology? like reganomics? corporatism? fascism?
However, I for one, can no longer stomach reading your posts.
Josh, RF isn’t a gun, LEO procedure, or criminal law expert. He’s a journalist. What is unique about this site, really, is that after reading one of RF’s button-pushing posts, you get to respond, and your comment will stay up even if you vehemently disagree with his take…or mine. This may not seem like such a big deal, unless you consider the alternatives, like HuffPo, the NYT, and so forth.
When RF’s post makes you want to throw up, you are supposed to barf up text that states your take. RF’s posts, to my mind, are nothing but the equivalent of a referee dropping the puck for a hockey face-off. True, the more face-offs successfully started, the better the site does.
This site is supposed to fight the Confirmation Bias joy that is most other boards. Within this thread you’ll find comments for, against, and ambivalent, and all of them are still up, barring overt racism or obsenity. Moderation is very moderate here. No?
Well said.
+1
Say hello to Paul T. McCain for us.
I actually was in a thread PaulT was in the other day. He did not say howdy.
It’s a small town PD with limited training and experience. Not exactly Keystone Cops, but not Scotland Yard either. I’m not surprised that mistakes — bad mistakes — were made. In fact, I’d be surprised, and suspicious, if everything they did was all too neat and tidy.
Police errors probably contributed to having the Grand Jury investigate this case. GJ investigations are like landings — any one that you can walk away from is good. It was a good investigation for Darren Wilson. He got to walk away.
Could he have defused the situation before it got deadly? I don’t know, but I kinda think not. The Mike Brown that I saw on the video robbing a convenience store was looking for trouble. Bad trouble. He wanted it and he found it.
+1
Agreed. How many officer involved shootings has FPD handled? From what little I’ve seen of this situation any mistakes made in the investigation comes from lack of training and lack of experience.
This reinforces the point I’ve tried to make in so many posts here. The mayors, city councils and chiefs bear the blame for the shortcomings of their troops. Consistently punish these top people for their troops missteps and we will get cops that are the best.
It doesn’t matter what mayor x has done for you in the past. If his cops are consistently bad, vote his ass out.
Ferguson isn’t that small, and while it may not have the most generous dept budget, this is rookie error kinda stuff. Any Sgt., let alone Lt., worth his stripes should know this back-of-hand.
They aren’t the boonies, this is part of the STL metro. As much as the facts say this was a good shoot, that is verrrrryyyy sloppy police work.
It has been my experience that PDs in close proximity to major metropolitan areas tend to be more Barney Fife-ish than an out and out Podunk PD. Just my 2 cents.
Another issue here that I could see right before the RIOTS , was the Ferguson P.D. did not have the NEEDED man power to handle this, and second issue here because of ALL the BAD MEDIA press from the very start the FERGUSON P.D. , was holding back a LOT to defuse the issue , N.Y. city did not play games , but locked rioters right away…Just saying…THE BLAME game will not help America fix things … want to point fingers START with the White House and A.G. Holder and all this RACE BATING .
Yea, playing politics with people’s lives and property is a dangerous game, one which Prez Obola and his peeps seem quite comfortable playing. We have yet to get a legitimate answer from Gov Nixon on why he ordered MNG not to engage, either.
2hotel9, Fair enough, I can see how that could happen and I know of some fairly sophisticated depts in places one would not expect them. I guess I just look at it as when one lives close to a library, one has no excuse not to be educated. That, and Christ-on-a-pogo-stick, even brain-damaged meatpuppets watching some CSI nonsense would know better.
Following what should be basic procedures ought to be a given. People do some seriously screwed up things under duress, that said the other officers arriving on scene did not have that excuse. As Accur81 said earlier, some one should have taken command of the scene, and the one having just been through a physical confrontation and shooting is not the one that should have taken charge. I know this from dealing with accidents on work sites, you would think it would be ingrained by training for cops.
2hotel9, Agreed, that’s why there’s a supervisor. When the line-level personnel are reacting in the fog, it’s the job of the boss to show up and make things happen as they should in an orderly fashion in the aftermath.
When the jefe is as confused and disordered as his underlings, he has no qualification to hold the office. I’m just saying there’s no heat-of-the-moment excuse once management arrives on scene.
Yea, from what I have been reading it appears FPD supervisors were “over taken by events”. Which, sad to say, happens a lot more than people realize. May feel is they just wanted Wilson away from the scene while keeping as many other officers on scene as possible. It was already getting ugly when the first backup arrived, and the fact it took so long to get Brown’s remains off the scene speaks volumes. As a couple of the other former LEO commenters have said, a cock up all the way around.
That was the standard I was held to as an NCO, I was in charge and when my troops f**ked up “I” was held responsible. Funny, though, so many times officers got to skate when troops f**ked up due to lack of leadership and/or proper supervision. Or they passed the blame downward, quite often. The same has always been true in civilian government bureaucracy at all levels. Those further down the foodchain are the ones always taking it in the a$$ instead of those in charge.
Agreed.
Mike Brown committed strong arm robbery 10-15 minutes before his encounter with Officer Wilson. He was still carrying the stolen merchandise. I challenge anyone to give a rational explanation for why he was walking down the middle of the street.
Read that again. By EVERY witness account, Brown was walking down the middle of the street still holding the stolen merchandise. When he was approached by a police officer in a marked car, he did not take off running.
The Ferguson Police Department may have very well screwed up on the investigation. However, it is entirely unfair to place the burden on the unlucky police officer who happened upon this drug-adled criminal. If people want to fix the inherent inequity in society, you don’t win allies by suddenly making scapegoats of police officers.
I’ve been cussed out by plenty of cops and lived to tell about it. What is being suggested here? That after Brown cursed at Wilson, the officer should have just said “Oh I am sorry. I see you are having a rough day and you are so close to home that I am just going to let you proceed and maybe after a nap, you will feel much better. Sorry to have interrupted you two gentlemen. Carry on.”
I read this same topic on Salon and those commenters made TTAG commenters look like the cast of MSNBC.
BTW, if you read some of my comments, you can see I am not a boot licker, but for the love of Pete, can we move on and find another example of bad cops? If the problem is so prevalent, there has to be a better example.
Let’s be clear here: no one knows for sure how the deal went down.
We have the testimony of the main remaining actors: Officer Wilson and Brown’s partner in crime. They tell two very different stories.
For sure I don’t take Dorian Johnson’s account at face value; it conflicts with the physical evidence in many places. Call me a natural born cynic, but I don’t accept that Officer Wilson’s testimony was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If nothing else, Officer Wilson arrested someone for taking video of the police, indicating a lack of love for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
http://youtu.be/6wAkbovfTeA
As I said in the post, taken together, or, if you prefer, splitting the difference, I get the impression that an aggressive cop met an aggressive felon. A fight ensued and Wilson shot Brown in self-defense. That’s my take. I’m not a fill-time cop nor was I privy to the information seen by the Grand Jury. But I can read and read between the lines.
Again, the sloppy police response after the shooting has nothing to do with the shooting itself, except that it indicates a lack of proper discipline within the force. Which may – may – have affected Wilson’s approach to the incident. Fair enough?
Come on, RF!! Don’t go all wishy washy on us now!!!! 😉
Excellent post, RF. I agree.
A most disappointing video. More than a touch of both ignorance and arrogance on Wilson’s part. Or is it agen’ the law to video an officer on duty? Seems like quite a different person than the guy Stephanopoulos interviewed.
Agreed, but if there is room for improvement then they should improve.
Aw jeez …
Brown had the first opportunity not to escalate. He could have not stolen the cigars. He could have moved to the sidewalk when asked by Wilson.
Brown was bent of escalating. I suspect that short of never speaking to Brown, it would have escalated. When has a thug ever responded well to nice talk? To him, it would have likely been taken as a sign of weakness.
When Brown walked away, he was a fleeing felon with a demonstrated tilt to violence.
Yes Wilson could have sat in his cruiser and waited or back up. But Wilson also did not know where Brown was going. Speculating on what could have been is a pointless and wondering what the world would be like of someone had killed Hitler before his rise to power.
As someone who has worn the badge and know how ofiicer involved shootings go, yes, this was a cock-up of the first order.
1. Wilson told his Sgt what happened. All he should have said was how many shots and direction of fire.
2. He should not have washed up until he was photographed and he shouldn’t have bagged his own gun.
3. As soon as he had to do more than just ask the guys to get out if the road, he should have got out of his car, not backed up to them.
4. Ferguson PD needed to issue Tasers.
Ferguson PD and Wilson could have done better, but the ultimate blame rests on Brown. As the saying here goes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Wilson may or may not have been a poster child for police decorum, but there’s no denying that Brown went out and got himself killed. Pure and simple, Wilson was righteous in going after Brown. I’ve not read any comments on this site that Wilson did anything other than what his job required him to do. It’s what came afterwards that raises questions. And justifiably so. There is much that needs to be said about this.
I’m currently reading the transcripts which have been released in 25 volumes of varying sizes. After finishing the first one, I’m stunned at the sloppiness shown just from that first part of the testimony. More comments when I’ve read more and have time to study it.
Brown was a thug. When you mix a thug and police ( who are trained to escalate) you get results like this.
Amazing the people with degrees in police procedure here. This has become a cop block website
I take it you’re new here.
A couple of things stand out to me:
1) He “prefers” not to carry a taser. Tough. Carry it. Should be a standard issue item just like body cameras, because it gives you an extra (needed) level in your force continuum. Maybe it would have helped, maybe not, but you should still have it as a general practice.
2) Based on his testimony he WAS aware of the call, even though he wasn’t directly responding to that call. This conflicts with the assertion that he knew nothing about the robbery.
3) Based on my understanding of the scene, Brown was found amidst the majority of the casings. Unless the shooting occurred at essentially contact range (which would leave physical evidence in the form of a lot of powder residue over much of his body), it would seem to back up Wilson’s story that he chased after Brown for a short period of time, then backpedaled when Brown turned around and came towards him.
With every year, Taser policy becomes more and more restrictive- largely due to cops who use them when it’s absolutely the wrong answer. If you work for Seattle PD, you’re probably better off shooting someone than using a Taser on them. At some point in the near future, I would not be surprised if you start seeing entire departments giving them up.
Same with body cameras, there was recently a public records request filed here in WA that has prompted many local agencies to look at giving up their cameras- someone requested all, that is every minute of every officer’s footage for the entire history of a department. They estimated it would take about three years to fill that single request, without hiring extra people. At that point, despite all the benefits to everyone involved, easier to not even bother having them.
In force continuum, the Taser always seems like a solution in search of a problem. Honestly, if you can’t subdue the subject with words, mild physical action, a good tussle, a baton, a slapjack/springjack, then you probably are probably right at the point for lethal force. Or you’re a tiny woman with no business being a cop. There *are* wonderful exceptions (like that poor nutter with a frakkin’ pen knife – Taser was the perfect tool) but the majority of Taser uses are pretty obscene in a dispassionate analysis. Too many deaths for a casually deployed weapon.
That, and Ricky Roid Ranger keeps pullin’ that trigger as long as he can. It’s ‘less lethal’, but the more data I see, the less I believe that.
I haven’t looked up the numbers myself, but in training they told us that Tasers were statistically safer not just for the officers using them, but also for the suspects being tased. This may sound ridiculous on its face, but if you think about it, the worst injury you are likely to sustain from a Taser without a heart condition is from falling on your head.
Compare this to the injuries you can get from wrestling with however many cops show up to your fight, sprains, broken bones, bruises, or the same from being struck repeatedly with a wooden baton, and it starts to make sense. Someone with a heart condition wrestling with three or four guys may well suffer the same heart attack that they would from a Taser application.
In appearance, however, the Taser looks to be a far higher level of force than fisticuffs. And yes, some guys appear to enjoy using them far too much.
600+ people have died from Taser use since 2001, starting when not everybody and their brother had them. I don’t disagree that there are scenarios where they are the best choice, I just find that looking at the data, a few of those corpses would have preferred a few broken bones.
Despite what Taser Inc has you told in training, it’s maybe less lethal than a bullet. I can’t say it should be taken away, but I can say that it is nowhere near as “less” lethal as the company makes it out to be. Especially when the operator is a cowboy.
Yeah, the problem with Tasers is not so much that they’re so unsafe (they are, but it’s not hard to recognize the fact and use them appropriately), but rather that they are too damn convenient to use as a “forced conformance” tool, or just to punish whatever cops sees as a bad behavior – and end up being used that way too often.
Actually this IS typical small town cop behavior. Clueless and inept. And I support Wilson. If he hadn’t acted like a badass(respect my authoratah’) might not have this s##t. Barney Fife all the way…and I grew up in a small city with inept racist corrupt cops (Kankakee Illinois)…
Small towns are not noted for having deep pools of talent to draw from… and when you see the f-ups that happen in big-city departments, the surprise isn’t that f-ups happen, it’s that f-ups don’t happen more often.
An overview, of Wilson’s testimony, here.
http://bearingarms.com/hands-dont-shoot-lie-testimony-evidence-suggests-textbook-self-defense-shooting/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/3/justice-dillon-taylor-after-white-utah-man-fatally/
Why did we have to hear about Michael Brown for the last few months but this never popped up on our radar? Slightly off topic, I know, but on balance…
Why did we have to hear about Michael Brown for the last few months but this never popped up on our radar?
Because Sharpton, Holder, Obama, the white college dropout left wing “community organizer” loonies running around Ferguson, the MSM and the rest of the racial arsonists can’t make any money or grab any power by exploiting it.
I unbookmarked TTAG a while ago because of the anti-cop mentality. I love cops and soldiers… it’s their (current) bosses I despise.
Communities end up with the policing they deserve. Sit on the porch and collect benefits — erode the tax base — raise the crime rate while lowering the pay…. what kinds of recruits and managers are you going to end up with? (Same goes for teachers but that’s another topic.)
That’s why there were so few brothers on the force. Thanks to affirmative action, any black cop smart enough to make the cut will opt for a nicer cushy low-crime suburban posting with higher pay. Doh.
Cops and Soldiers can be good and bad, but keep licking the boots on the way out.
Thanks for enlightening us again, Officer Farago! If only I had you as an instructor at the police academy. Instead of “command voice”, we could just say: “pretty please.”
When cops yell at me (it doesn’t happen often, but it has happened), I want to kick them in the b@lls or tell them to go fvck themselves. When they speak to me politely, I want to comply, and do. So yeah, save your “command voice” for your union meetings. Try respecting people.
What you’ve been trained to do has created lots of enemies. Some day, it may get you killed because the last guy you yelled at will turn his back on you when you need him. What goes around . . . . is your fault.
Ralph,
I could not agree with you more. I’m exceedingly polite to everyone I encounter on the street, be it upstanding citizen or turd. And as such I get into far fewer fights than most of my colleagues, generate zero complaints, and generally feel good about my interactions with people, and still get the job done. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a time and a place to yell and go hands on, but those circumstances are rare and generally can be avoided by being polite.
Good for you. A polite cop will make a lot of friends in the community and defuse potentially tense situations. A smart cop will be nice until it’s time to not be nice, and he will know the difference.
Yep, Officer Friendly can crack your skull just as effectively as Officer Dumbazz, if that is what needs done.
Politeness works for me too. Very few complaints, the occasional thanks from people getting tickets or even arriving at jail. Uniform or not, if you start by giving respect, you’re far more likely to get it in return.
“Uniform or not, if you start by giving respect, you’re far more likely to get it in return.”
+1,000,000
Exactly. Politeness, whether “deserved” or not, lubricates the gears of civilization.
When I was a kid delivering pizza, I wore a shirt and tie under my delivery t-shirt. I worked in neighborhoods more sketchy than Ferguson and made very good tip money from my clientele, because to me they were always ‘sir’ and ‘ma’am’. I only had two problems, with those who had criminal intent from jumpstreet, both solved by judicious application of a 6D Maglite, then running like hell.
The current training of “control at all costs” and rapid escalation, tends to yield really bad results when better results could have been had by just being polite. Doesn’t take skull-cracking off the table, just means that you don’t sound like you really want to do it as your first option.
As Al Capone’s better angel might put it, “A polite word and a gun will get you more than a gun alone.”
Got to say the only times a cop has done the loud&profane act on me was in Lawton, OK(if you know the town you know why I was there and why he felt the need to screech and “tune” me up with a flashlight to the head) and Atlanta. Atlanta PD officer pulled up on me in an apartment complex parking lot at night and wanted to know “What the F**k are you doing here, White Boy!” Once he knew I was answering a refrigerator repair call in my own vehicle we were copacetic. Its all in how you react, most times.
Every time a cop is polite to me during a traffic stop, I am disappointed when he says “Sit tight and I’ll be right back.” That means he is going to write a citation. On the other hand, every cop that has been a total dickhead to me has let me go after verbally belittling me. I guess I inconvenienced him by making him pull me over and he doesn’t want to be inconvenienced more by having to fill out the paper work. One jerk was tailgating me for several miles and I kept speeding up because I thought he wanted me to. Once I got 14 mph over the limit, he pulled up beside me and we stopped in the middle of the road. He yelled at me and cussed me out through the window. We were blocking both lanes of traffic. After he had his say, he drove off. I drove home thinking “what a dick”.
Lots of places nowadays require officers to issue a written warning rather than a vocal one so they’d have to go back to their car anyway…
Whoa, guys. I never advocated being an outright jerk to anyone. What I meant was that after someone is already being a threatening ass and attacking you is not the time to play nice-nice.
As Ralph said, “A smart cop will be nice until it’s time to not be nice, and he will know the difference.”
Oh, and if you are yelling it ain’t “command voice”, its just being obnoxious at the top of your lungs. And yes, I have command voice, its not something you can teach to the majority of people.
Officer Wilson is a criminal. I can say that with absolute certainty because he has been caught on video committing felony armed robbery…and no, I’m not even talking about the shooting of Brown:
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/11/ferguson-darren-wilson/
Somebody want to explain to me his legal right to grab that camera?
Seeing THAT evidence I have no grounds to believe he spoke truthfully to the grand jury in the Brown shooting.
Meh. I don’t like strongarm cops any more than I like strongarm thugs. Still, I read Wilson’s GJ testimony and saw his interview and I believe him. Let’s face it — Wilson isn’t smart enough to maintain a lie under even a mild cross-examination. He’s telling as much of the truth as he knows.
I am very familiar with that allegation. The citizen sated that he really isn’t sure if it was Wilson or not. It’s interesting that he waited so many months afterward to only now bring it up.
Been a reader for several years. Never made a comment. Have very much enjoyed the website.
As far as articles referencing law enforcement go, I have always taken them for what they are worth & left the rest.
In regards to this article, some points I might bring to bear:
You’re absolutely right that you as a citizen have the right to question armed public servants. You have your own perception as to how law enforcement should be done & comment on it regularly. If someone equally as uninformed as you are on LE were to comment on firearms or training would you not read their articles skepticism? What have you done to educate yourself in matters of statutory law, case law, law enforcement practices, or actual real world encounters of self defense? I’ve never taken the time to address my concerns on Internet forums or blogs, but I have very much enjoyed TTAG for many years. It’s a daily read for me. That said, I wouldn’t go to a bunch of amateurs to read up on firearms related info. Your opinions are noted. Your concerns are obviously valid. What have you done to educate yourself as to why certain things are done or why certain things are not? Many things are done not out of best practice, but because LE has relented to public demand in place of best practice to satisfy their tax paying employers.
As far as mistakes made immediately following the shooting, have you ever been involved in a deadly force incident? What people do does not always make sense. Trained or not trained it can be traumatic. People are so quick to jump on conspiracy. In this case it was more likely stress that led to these mistakes. The fact of the matter is if you need an informed opinion on plumbing or electrical or disease, you go to a CURRENT plumber, electrician, or doctor. I come to TTAG for an I formed opinion on gun related matter. I still enjoy reading your articles referencing law enforcement, but outside of your opinion I have seen no attempt to improve your knowledge relating to the field. Sorry to say, but you’re out of your depth on this matter. It is similar to me reading an author’s opinion on gun matters from uninformed writers. I still enjoy reading their prospective from a layman’s view, but it is still just an uniformed opinion.
I keep seeing all the references to increased training. Exactly how much money would you like to spend on this? Where do you want the money to come from? How many officers?…all of them? Average cost of training for a recruit from hire to completion of training at a major PD in the US is likely around $150,000 per officer. That is basic academy. By the time a peace officer reaches the 10yr mark, there’s a good chance that officer has had in the neighborhood of more than 2000 hours of training and continuing education. Show me how many other professions have similar levels of training? It the training of the month. And it is all more than fine. If the community feels that it is necessary to say educate 1000 officers in a class that provides sensitivity training to a very small subset of the population at “X” cost per officer, that’s fine. The community has made that decision. That said the community needs to understand the total cost of implementing that training. If they really understood the cost, it may not seem as important to spend many thousands to support training for a very small subset of the community rather than focusing on more general training that would focus on treating all persons respectfully. At the end of the day, the LE community is overwhelmed with complying with the demands of an uninformed citizenry. It is the job of LE to interact with their community to come to an agreement on what they need to effectively do their job balanced with what the citizens want. It can’t be just one way or the other.
Lastly, most people that comment on these matters have a lack of training, experience in similar circumstances, law knowledge, or the willingness to do the same job themselves. Officers are not government overlords. They are public servants. A stop gap or barrier between the community that citizens want and the evil that exists. That said, the minute all these people who didn’t want to be troubled with matters see an officer have to do his job, there’s immediately a professional in everybody. I may very well second guess my doctor or plumber, but at the end of the day if I don’t educate myself enough to make an informed query I’m really just making noise.
Here’s to the hope that TTAG doesn’t become an uninformed noise maker. Educate yourselves. Then speak. Or not.
I don’t understand your point, or even know if you have one. Are you suggesting that only cops can judge cops? Because that’s the same kind of arrogance that made people turn on the police, leaving us where we are today.
I guess you missed the point that you should educate yourself on the matters you’re either trying to learn from or criticize. Otherwise your opinion is no better than any other uneducated talking head that wants to yell louder so they can be heard.
It’s not arrogance. It’s fact. When you go to the doctor do you go to a health & beauty blogger for a second opinion because you’re concerned that you got bad info from the first? No…you go to another doctor, one you obviously trust more than the first. But how you get to the point of wanting a second opinion is important, you make an educated, informed decision that the doctor may be wrong. You’re not a subject matter expert, but you’re informed enough to know what feels right & what feels wrong. That said, a well informed patient still might not want to go pen an oped Monday night quarter backing their 1st doc until they are absolutely sure of what was done wrong. Otherwise you’re no different than the MSM media putting out bad or inaccurate news just so people listen to them.
When I want a well informed opinion on LE matters I don’t go to a gun blogger unless they are a well informed one. TTAG certainly offers an opinion, but it’s only slightly more well informed on matters of law than CNN & is stale on their attempts to become better informed.
My point sir, TTAG is a great place for a lot of things that I enjoy paging to multiple times per day. Why?…because I value their opinion, until the one they offer is based on uneducated views. I don’t trust everything LE…but I wouldn’t go asking an accountant if a cop was doing it right either.
Like it or not, officers are held to a higher standard than most other professions. Are there bad officers, you bet. Percentage wise within the general population, do they do more harm than good?
A store was just robbed. A call to the police goes out. An officer catches the suspect. The suspect grabs the officers gun and gets shot. Tragic. Terrible. Bad for everybody left. Citizens want good professional law enforcement. I think they deserve it. That said, it is nearly futile to discuss the topic in a culture where people value being heard or being right than they do about the honest truth. I can’t have an honest discussion about LE with someone that is unwilling to educate themselves on the topic or listen to facts than we could have a conversation with those that have zero respect for the 2nd amendment. Some people are caught up in being heard, some hate the police, some have a problem with any level of authority no matter it’s source. LE is not perfect. It’s extremely problematic on many levels. Not the least of which is an uniformed, uneducated, apathetic citizenry that only wants to yell when they see what they think is wrong. It may be wrong, it may not…they don’t care.
Me personally, I don’t feel like I need LE for me or for my family. I understand why others do. I support citizens that want LE. Some people cannot protect themselves. LE is not always bad & it’s not always good. I think there is far less corruption today then yesterday. I’m glad some people get involved. People deserve what they pay for. That said, there are very few people in this world capable of doing and willing to do the job that the citizens want them to do. A front line officer, that truly wants to follow the law and proactively intervene in true crime is attacked from all sides: citizens, criminals, administration, his fellow officers. You want all things. And yet you are amazed when things go wrong. Life isn’t fair. Things don’t always go according to training. Very few of you have done the job but know everything there is to know about it because you’re gun people that went to a few weekend training classes & know right from wrong. I’ve given first aid, been to a few classes & know when I don’t feel good…still not a doctor. You pay people to make decisions & then fault them not because they made the wrong decision, but because they didn’t get to the answer the same way as you.
My challenge to everybody that hates what LE is & feel that they know how to do it better: go do it. Me personally, I wouldn’t suggest it, because at any time you could be the next guy that had to fight for his life & then have to sit through what this guy has.
TL/DR but I will see the movie.
Sorry, but “if you aren’t one, you can’t judge” is a basic logical fallacy. If you want to go Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect, then you may have a point.
As soon as you can make a cogent argument within the bounds of D-K, then you might have an actual point. But being a cop, doing that job, and understanding the proscribed parameters are miles from rocket science. Many folks know enough about the law to provide a valid opinion. So if you want to attempt to disqualify those opinions, the onus is on you.
Tell the truth. You didn’t read that either.
No disrespect intended, but you sound like a typical police union representative schooling us members of the ‘great unwashed’ on the Way Things Really Are And Why We Can’t Possibly Understand Them. Sorry to disappoint you but there are, in fact people on this site—including people with police experience—that are far better informed than you might imagine.
We’ll sir, that’s not me. I’m a staunch 2nd amendment supporter with zero ifs ands or buts about it. I’m a religious man that believes in treating all people with respect. I’m human like every one of yall & have a bad day sometimes. I have made mistakes in my life & will make some more tomorrow probably. I also see how others have made mistakes & will make some more. I don’t look down on people but may try to help them up. People already expect more out of LE than they do out of the general population & rightly so. Those people are also extremely judgmental when many times they could not live up to that same standard. You can not expect flawless LE because at the end of the day they are just men. Mistakes will always be made. Some worse than others.
I defend no wrong. It’s a waste of time & just isn’t right.
Who would you rather have go to your elderly grandmothers house in the middle of the night when she’s scared because she heard a sound in her backyard? Me personally…I’d rather be there myself, but my grandmother lives out of state. So out of the general population who would you rather rely on? That’s going to do it no matter the weather. Do I like all officers?…nope. And I know quite a few. This ain’t a game when an officer responds. For the majority, I think all people want to do the right thing. Very very few people act out of shear maliciousness.
We generally hear people of TTAG telling people not to do stupid things, at stupid times, in stupid places, under stupid circumstances. That’s great if you’re not the guy that actually has to go to that place. Violence is extremely avoidable almost all the time. It’s different when you’re actually the one that has to go there. You’re going to think of people however you choose. Me sitting here typing it out & you sitting there typing it out even though we could be from the same city doesn’t even matter.
Me personally, I wouldn’t recommend anybody go into LE.
“Officers are not government overlords. They are public servants.”
Well tell Furgeson PD to start fvcking acting like it then.
That is the whole reason for the contention behind this issue to begin with, so, do try and follow along.
Far too much money is spent on law enforcement. All of that training and they still can’t remember that filming the police and open carry are rights in their state? They get sued. They agree to “train”. That training gets ignored and they get sued again. Among activists, especially RKBA activists, there is a common admonition to not seek legal guidance from cops because they generally don’t know jack. Again, far too much money wasted and too many innocent non-law enforcement lives are forever changed for the worse.
BTW: In reading your other comments… we agree on a lot. I would rather not involve law enforcement if I can help from it.
seems pretty normal more or less. that’s how it’s done in Chicago, and the police here shoot a LOT of people, so that means these methods must be pretty valid. used to be that there would be a closed door “round table” here where the captain, chief lieutenant, commander and supervising sergeant would talk to the officer involved in a closed door meeting with no notes taken at all and then he had up to 24 hours AFTER that to speak to anyone investigating the situation AND have a lawyer and union representative present. no bad shootings by police in Chicago have ever occurred. that means other cities should do what we do 😀
/snark
In Officer Wilson’s grand jury testimony, he says he had 72 hours to make a statement, plus the FOP union rep etc.
Because of this post, this site will no longer be bookmarked by me on any of my devices, so long.
Because of your post, I’m unfriending you.
I can understand how they need to tighten up their act. However, regardless of words exchanged, any police officer would have justification to shoot if the person came into their vehicle assaulting them (look it up: Missouri’s castle doctrine law extends to your vehicle) and/or grabbed for their gun (per Massad Ayoob). So really, this may cast some doubt as to how they do business, but it doesn’t change what matters about the case.
Farago,
FLAME DELETED You know nothing about police work or how to do the job. The fact that you dare, without a day of police training, sit here and pontificate how Officer Wilson failed to descalate the situation, or even has a shred of responsibility for it’s outcome is insulting. Had this turd, Michael Brown, been raised to respect people, (not just authority or the police, but PEOPLE in general), he wouldn’t have committed that robbery at the convenience store earlier. He wouldn’t have been walking down the middle of the street. He wouldn’t have told Officer Wilson to “fuck off”. He wouldn’t have assaulted Officer Wilson. And finally, he would have done as he was ordered and laid down in compliance and submitted to his arrest. Brown, and his parents, own this entire thing. And the fact that this officer and entire community will now be paying for it for years is saddening…
I’m done reading your uninformed musings as I’m learning you really know knowing about firearms, training or tactics and my being a subscriber actually gives your Facebook page credibility, which I’m now convinced it has none. I’m now “unsubscribed”!
Bubye!
Wow some guy named “Dave” (with no last name) thinks his presence here lent the site credibility.
Pompous, much?
I’ve been stopped by the Ferguson PD and been let go alot even St.Louis county PD. Wilson should have been photographed before leaving the scene and someone else should’ve put his weapon in the evidence bag. Hell if I shoot someone, give me 24 hours to clear my mind and let me put my weapon in the evidence bag. They are wearing body cams and they should…All police should for the safety and integrity of them and others. Ferguson PD does have tasers because I had one pointed at my face when I chose to take them on a mini chase, but even then that officer talked to me with respect and already knew why I have done it and only charged me with traffic citations. That happened a couple of years ago and I’m now a 23 year old black male and I don’t have any hatred towards the good police which I haven’t had a bad experience with police anyway
Wow, just reading comments it’s amazing how many people have a non factual opinion on the shooting.
So I’ll go ahead and start us off;
Today, on this Thanksgiving of 2014, I’m thankful I wasn’t involved in the fergeson shooting.
Ps. I’m also thankful that I am capable of independent thought, that I have family to enjoy thanksgiving with and that my keyboard doesn’t cause my head to grow
Makes you wonder if any of this would have happened if Michael Brown had been walking on the sidewalk instead of the middle of the road.
…..or in class, or at the local ymca, or at work, or at home studying, or at football practice, or at home prepping dinner, or on a date with his gf, or at church youth group, or mowing his grandpa’s grass, or volunteering at the local community center, or babysitting his siblings, or taking a nap, or painting the chipped paint on his moms house……
Maybe not…in my neighborhood south of Chicago I’ve had youngblack a##wipes lay in the middle of the STREET daring you yo to HIT them. SERIOUSLY…if I was undercover cop I’d be sorely tempted. And I have 2 IRC sons.
I wondered that from the start.
And keep in mind , we are talking about the Midwest (Mayberry) type of mind set, not a lot training in these little towns , sure bet they do NOT send the policeman to special shooting schools ETC. Had this problem when I lived in Pa. the state police were not well trained like big city police…. and it’s a money issue too , not much in the budget for police …
I personally don’t love TTAG’s editorial line on cops either, but none of the people I’ve read here criticizing this article as being anti-cop have made any substantive criticisms of this particular article.
You just don’t see them John. See, all posts must be “approved” by a moderator before the rest of us see them. It’s called censorship and apparently Mr. Farago doesn’t approve posts from those people who actually have the training and experience to provide an educated and experienced opinion on the subject and who are capable of throwing the BS flag on his uneducated writings…
That’s odd, Dave.
Unless I put a profanity in my post, it becomes visible immediately. And I *have* criticized Robert before.
NONESENSE Dave. First visit or is this just a Thanksgiving TROLL 🙂 ?
You know, Dave, on quite a few occasions I have given Robert and the other guys involved here ample reason to censor me. They have in fact removed some of my comments and contacted me directly to got certain sh*t out, and I try to comply. That all said, if your comments are being held for moderation then you damned well are giving them reason to.
Sorry, Dave, you’re all washed up on your belief about pre-moderation. Just see some of the comments in this thread alone!
From my experience here at TTAG your statement doesn’t wash, dave. I’ve been critical and argued with RF and some of the regulars here. Usually when I have a comment deleted it’s because the whole thread got out of hand and all the relevent comments went.
Things do tend to go sideways quickly when you mix strong beliefs and personalities together.
“See, all posts must be “approved” by a moderator before the rest of us see them.”
Bullsqueeze.
Replies appear after a refresh immediately following clicking “Post Comment.” Only very rarely is moderation done before a post appears.
Nice try, though. Gadzooks, I thought only the anti-gun crowd so freely posted nonsense so easily debunked.
An officer involved shooting is, by definition, a homicide scene. I’ve been to many of those scenes. It is not appropriate for the “shooter(s)” to book their own evidence, even if in uniform. Although swearing is inappropriate, I have definitely done so when things got crazy. Over the radio. On recorded lines. And I got chewed out for it. Mea Culpa.
If you can’t bring your A game to a homicide scene, don’t show up. I’ll kick people out from my scene if they are hampering the investigation or destroying evidence. It doesn’t matter their rank. That may ruffle feathers – which it has – but it needs to be done.
The responding officers, which is pretty much everyone on duty, need to properly secure all evidence ASAP once the scene is safely secured. That includes replacing the firearms from the LEO shooters with a loaded spare pistol(s) from the armory.
I don’t have time to detail the response to an officer involved shooting, but it is obviously a serious and detailed protocol. If the PD jacked up then they need to fix themselves. Taxpayers deserve that.
Clearly, you’re anti cop.
( /sarc! )
From my lengthy experience as a lurker on TTAG your responses are the ones I value the most for insight into all things LEO related. Thanks for weighing in every time you do.
you have no experience in LE robert and have no clue what your talking about. LE officers have to walk a fine line between de-escalation and maintaining control of the scene. de-escalation works against normal people who are having a bad day and need to vent or are angry. It doesn’t always work against lifelong thugs enamored in tough guy gangsta culture. You sound like the liberal idiots who ask why home defenders don’t just shoot the guy in the legs. they have no idea what their are talking about and neither do you. Until you have experience in law enforcement, please stop spewing the nonsensical crap the runs from your mouth like some kind of ruptured septic tank .
We get it — only a cop can judge a cop.
Kiss any asp recently?
Wow, how did this get through Dave’s pre-moderation filter? [/sarc]
Officer K, please meet officer Accur81 . . .
“Until you have experience in law enforcement, “
I have experience in law enforcement AND a fair amount of experience investigating homicides.
If the investigation went down as described, it was a cock-up.
Happy now?
Another reason why I like the small middle-of-nowhere Ohio town I live in is that most people know each other, so the cops aren’t unknown personally, and most are from here or the surrounding townships. Some will BS will stop to BS with you when there’s nothing pressing for them to do. One overheard my wife say we were broke and needed PineSol, so he dropped off about a gallon size jug of it. He did it when we weren’t home because he knew my wife would try to refuse it. One even offered the use of his garage, tools, and assistance if we needed to work on our vehicles. Yeah, this town has it’s share of problems (pill heads and heroin addicts mostly), but I’d rather live here than a big city.
Same here. Twenty years ago, we settled onto a farm just a few miles outside of a little Ohio town. Interactions with the local city PD and county sheriff are outstanding; no substantial complaints from me. When we get a new Ohio State Highway Patrol officer in the area, it takes only a short while to break him or her in on how things are done around here. 99.99% of the activism that I do is far away because there is little need for it locally. I like living in rural Ohio as opposed to a large Ohio city like where I was born and raised. We all tend to know each other and one can pretty much be left alone if that’s what one wants.
I read the transcript of the testimony. I don’t get the impression that Officer Wilson did anything outside the norm of his duties to escalate the situation, nor did he force Brown to initiate an assault, which is what Brown chose to do.
I think it’s also relevant to point out this whole incident was over in what 90 seconds? Yeah, it went bad fast. Because of the actions Brown chose to take.
When you say it like that, that Wilson came down on him like a ton of bricks, you make it sound like you are blaming Officer Wilson (the victim) for “making” Michael Brown punch him in the face and attempt a gun grab.
Michael Brown is dead because of the choices of Michael Brown that day.
As to whatever procedures were handled poorly after the incident, that’s grasping at straws and minutia. A good shoot is a good shoot right? Isn’t that bandied around?
Did you read Dorian Johnson’s testimony? While the evidence does not support a great deal of his timeline, I wonder about the overall tenor of the encounter.
Yep I did read it.
No doubt that there could be disagreement as to tone, tenor or exact words exchanged in the initial contact. But for me his testimony starts to get spotty once Wilson makes the second contact and things go hands on.
The evidence supported almost nothing of Dorians testimony, yet you still base your declaration that Wilson is to blame partially on Dorians BS.
Complain about poor crime scene management all you want, but your desperation to assign blame to Wilson is revolting. Businesses have been burned to the ground, more people have died, the islamo marxist scum in DC / across the country are milking this for more brainwashing points for high school and college dupes, and you appear to be helping them.
Yeah farago, Dorian Johnson is a very credible witness. Help me out, did he claim that Wilson shot Brown in the back, or was he the hood rat that claimed Wilson stood over him and shot him execution style? While he was giving his 100% accurate no shit version of events, did he mention the strong arm robbery? So hard to keep up with these things.
Yeah he copped to being present at the robbery, and that they were going to the store to get cigarillos because they planned to get high later.
I would say that he seemed pretty believable right up to when Darren Wilson made first contact with them while they were walking in the street.
From then, he gets spottier. Allowing for the fact that two people can see the same thing and recall differing versions, or focus on different things, I’d say his testimony really falls apart when he relates the final seconds of the encounter and narrates his version of Darren Wilson getting out of the truck and pursuing the running Brown while at a fast walk, and then calmly and without a word gunning him down.
It honestly kind of reminded me of a description more of a Terminator movie scene.
My take on Dorian is that he might have got caught up in this whole thing a bit by surprise. He states that he did not know Brown was going to steal cigarillos and was surprised that that went down at the store. I can see that. When I was a teen I hung out with other kids at the time who would on occasion do something really dumb without warning and I was like “WTF man?”
My impression is that Dorian just kind of went along with events that morning as he was new to the neighborhood and looking for friends. In regards to his testimony about the final moments, I can understand he would be facing tremendous pressure from the Brown family and community in general not to violate the rules of the ‘hood.
So, I think he started fibbing about the early part of the encounter, and then outright bullshitting, or filling in the blanks of what he may or may not have seen regarding the final part of the incident.
Its about time this was posted.
The amount of incompetence and obscuration on the part of Furgeson PD is the reason why there are riots. And with good reason.
If the citizens of furgeson cannot even depend on their own law enforcement, they need to recall politicians and police chiefs and orchestrate more mass protests.
The Brown incident was ONE INCIDENT! There are numerous others in Furgeson, just do a bit of cursory searching. This is a out of control, 1940s-LAPD-esque organization without rules and boundaries, free to do as they wish with no accountability. Heads need to roll, literally and figuratively.
And this is just in Furgeson….
Actually within a very short amount of time, like within an hour or two, detectives from St. Louis County came in and started handling the investigation to include interviewing Wilson at the hospital.
Then there are the FBI agents who also investigated this.
You know what they all turned up?
Nothing.
But don’t worry, I’m sure they will try to come up with something to appease the masses. Bread and circuses.
The reasons there are riots is because of race gaiters like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Holder whipping these people into a frenzy with a wink and a nod.
Your appeal to authority leaves out many facts, so lets go over this.
1.) There was no filing of a incident report by Furgeson PD or by the STLPD. In fact the STLPD wrote one in response to get the ACLU off their back. Telling.
2.) Furgeson PD has already had a history of heave handedness and outright unconscionable behavior (see protestor shot in the head, which I already mentioned). http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/20/1323386/-Ferguson-PD-Confirms-Officer-Wilson-Shot-at-Brown-as-He-Ran-Away#
3.) Furgeson PD have demonstrated that they lie through their fvcking teeth. http://www.christianpost.com/news/news-reporters-bombshell-ferguson-tweet-deemed-personal-revealed-to-be-on-leave-since-march-125348/
4.) Not to play the guilt by association card, but birds of a feather…http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html?wpmk=MK0000203
5.) Then there is the treatment of the media, https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140817/21503028236/police-ferguson-back-to-threatening-arresting-reporters-tells-them-to-get-fuck-out-here.shtml which prompted this http://blog.amnestyusa.org/us/dispatch-from-ferguson-why-we-fight/ which was the first time they operated in the US (that is saying something huge itself).
6.) The treatment of actual productive citizens https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench/status/502174776996421632 (no veiled racism there, no siree!)
7.) The FBI investigation of Furgeson PD Is ONGOING. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/27/1347956/-LATimes-FBI-Crackdown-on-Ferguson-PD-Probable
So dont try and act like it was the Zimmerman situation ,because it clearly wasn’t.
And the race baiters are going to do what they do best: appeal to the vox populi. That doesn’t vindicate Furgeson PD in the very least.
I will check out the additional info you linked.
I try to hear both sides, though like anyone I have my own biases. I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on this but I appreciate you keeping it to information and not personalizing the disagreement.
For the record: Im not trying to make excuses and justify the enormity of the problems facing black communities, on the contrary.
With “heroes” like Sharpton, there will be no meaningful changes, just political lip service. In the meantime, while nobody wants to touch the politically incorrect problem of inner city poverty (not just black), impoverished youth will continue killing each other, robbing each other, and being thrown in prison at the age of seventeen on felonies. And its “racist” and “you need to check your privilege” to even suggest that there is a problem that needs solved…
So while I blame law enforcement for a lot, I also blame the communities because they should be held accountable. And obviously looting and pillaging the businesses of your own fellow neighbor is not a solution either. The unempoyment rate will probably not be eased any time soon.
“The amount of incompetence and obscuration on the part of Furgeson PD is the reason why there are riots. And with good reason.”
Complete BS,
Your a dupe of or a shill for the groups inciting the riots.
Yes, he is.
fvck right off, both of you.
Maybe its because I value people’s self-determination against a system that oppresses them and turns them against each other…
Im sure if those hypothetically were white people protesting against gun control, you would be joining them in lighting the molotovs, so dont feed me that bullshit.
A shill? Probably because whether they are uneducated, poor, and of a different race, I want them to have the same opportunity as me, not keep them perpetually trapped in crime and poverty because “they need to pull up their bootstraps”.
Unlike you, I provided evidence that Furgeson PD is less than credible. And there is a mountain of it.
Now go away and polish a “peace officer”s truncheon. Im sure that will soften its effects once they’re turned on you.
The protesters at the Brady Ranch, while armed, did not burn or loot anything. Perhaps you can see a difference?
“people’s self-determination” Really? And yet you keep pushing your leftist, fascist ideology(yes, fascism is from the left, stupid). You are just another leftarded moron full of hate for anyone better than you, and that list is long and varied.
“The protesters at the Brady Ranch, while armed, did not burn or loot anything. Perhaps you can see a difference?”
Not really
They pointed long guns at federal law enforcement officers wearing full battle rattle, they established armed checkpoints and harassed motorists, and held a gun on a BLM LEO in his GSA in the dead of the night.
All the while supporting a welfare cowboy who didn’t have a legal leg to stand on.
Hilariously enough, where were these militias when OWS protesters were getting maced or getting their skulls beat in? or when same sex marriage protesters were being arrested? or when DEA agents are violating your precious “states rights” by raiding medical marijuana dispenseries?
You know, actual egregious violations of individual rights rather than the “right” of bundy to decide one year to not pay his taxes?
Where did you get your education from? Conservapedia again?
Fascism is a typical far right fringe ideology, not left wing.
Before you call somebody stupid, you might want to check yourself first
Actually, fascism is a form of socialism. Socialism is defined as govenrment control of the means of production, distribution of wealth and control of consumption. Fascism is all of that. There is no substantial difference between classical socialism and fascism. The ultimate (so far) version of fascism was nazism, which stood for National Socialist Party. Socialists outside of fascist Italy and Germany like to distance themselves from their brothers by promulgating a lie that facism is a “right wing ideology;” like Stalin said, if you tell a lie that’s big enough, people will believe it.
And Amerika took in 4000 Nazis , why? BLACK arts, to work in every area to reach the forces of darkness,,, the TOTAL and ONLY reason for our space program (operation paper clip)……..America is the robot for the NEW WORLD ORDER ,,,,the reason for Ferguson is ORDER out of DISORDER……….LIBERTY died long ago ,, we are way past all forms of Socialism……….AWAKE
Wasting time and effort, lc is just another America hating leftard, spewing the same anti-human sh*t that leftards have been spewing for over 100 years now. Just kick it in it’s fecal stained teeth and laugh.
Happy Thanksgiving to all at TTAG – i enjoy this format, content, and the great posts. (More gun reviews please)
Keep shootin’ cause it is fun 😉
I have to say that if I was an LEO trying to get out of my car and the suspect I’d ordered to stop slammed my door closed twice, and then reached into the car to punch me and make a grab for my gun, I’d have a very hard time cooling down.
As for the comment (Dano?) saying RF would glorify Wilson if he’d been a civilian CCW type, I think not. I think the commentary would be “Poorly trained in situational awareness, he failed to get his sidearm in hand as the suspect approached his car.” Backing up to engage an offensive person would be nothing but Road Rage if a non-LEO did it. Once LEOs go into pursuit, there is no analogy to citizen lethal force use.
Geez… the anti-cop crowd is really active here.
Only if you’re new. What you’ll find if you read back to day one, is that most here are antibad cop.
I find Wilson’s account credible, especially in light of the forensic evidence. That doesn’t mean for a second I would sanction him bagging and tagging his gun from this shoot. Nor, him leaving the scene without being thoroughly documented photographically. That’s sloppy police work.
Im against corporate bought, elitist, blowhard, meatheaded “peace” officers…
And if you are one of the “good” cops that just stands there like a fvcking mook while your “buddy” is going Vic Mackey on someone, you are also just as bad.
Exactmundo. Good cops need some better tools than IA, and better corporate culture that will allow them to deal with the problem children in a more timely fashion.
Sorry, the FPD did not investigate the shooting, the St. Louis County Police investigated the shooting. And the initial interview was not an interview, but the initial supervisory inquiry into what happened. Such “interviews” are covered by Garrity and Kalkines, and therefore are of little investigative use. In any event, there is no evidence that what Wilson described in any of the interviews, including 4 hours before a Grand Jury had any significant contradictions. You are ganging up on him to “appear” to be unbiased. In essence, you are like CNN, etc., who want to create controversy where there is none.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalkines_warning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrity_warning
wiki. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder you are so f**ked in the head.
What? I posted two links to brief descriptions of something integral to someone’s comment for those who might be interested. I had no idea what the commenter was referring to so I figured someone else might be equally in the dark.
Seriously, something has happened to you lately. Your demeanor has markedly changed to something disturbed. Please seek professional help.
(BTW: We used Wikipedia quite often in medical school. It’s not what it once was perceived to be. Regardless, it still would give an adequate overview for those who otherwise wouldn’t know anything at all about those two rulings.)
You openly support and defend rioters and looters. That is all I need to know. From that point forward ALL you receive is derision and scorn. You are Democrat Party scum. F**k you and your anti-American ideology.
You are a bald faced LIAR. I never claimed any such thing. I am not a democrat and never have been one. Post up links to some of my quotes, liar.
Play more spin&twirl, all the while you continue to support and defend rioters and looters. Nice. Try wiki for a definition of obfuscation. You certainly have the tactic down pat.
Here is an example of evidence. This is a post from the beginning of November where you are referring to a Wikipedia quote as “facts and reality.” You have zero credibility.
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/10/31/maryland-the-nutty-progressive-state/#comment-450544
Wow, a Democrat who can’t read! Why am I not surprised?!?! As LC the communist agitator points out below the only useful part of wiki is the list of and links to references. But hey! You are all about sh*tting on America. We get it.
As opposed to what, your beloved “conservapedia”?
You lazy turds that automatically discredit somebody because they cited a wiki generalization need to quit being so fvcking lazy and search the “references” part on the bottom of the page.
And John, ohhhh snaaaap! 😀 Nicely done
YES! You finally got something right. Infukingcredible!!!! Now, just pull your head out of your a$$ and stop spewing your leftist sh*t. That will be a good start.
And, there was no pissing contest, Brown was a suspicious character by itself given his jaywalking, but in the end, he was stopped because he was a suspect in a felony. And you don’t de-escalate encounters with felons, you put them in handcuffs. You are like the black racist who said Wilson should have let Brown go and ignored his crimes.
I don’t know why, since this is the internet, but I am surprised at the defensiveness about what seems to me a perfectly level-headed pointing out of irregularities in the aftermath of the killing of an American citizen by a sworn law enforcement officer. Even if the killing was fully justified, it is still a momentous occasion that should be handled with the utmost care, so as to maintain the legitimacy of the police (not to block or undermine it). I’m just glad that TTAG didn’t suggest that there IS institutional racism in the police department. That might have broke the internet.
“. I reckon Wilson’s behavior set something in motion he couldn’t control – until he could, leaving Brown dead on the pavemen”
Nice job, Farago. Sharpton and Holder write that for you, or did your progressive BS just slip out on its own?
PS – , YOU RECKON WRONG.
Brown was wholly responsible for his own death, but wth that garbage above, you can take some responsibility for keeping the rioting and the leftist BS going.
Wow, did that guy get paid to write this steaming heap or did he just post it from his mom’s basement…. hmmm.
There is something inherently wrong with police officers being allowed to sidestep their own protocol without punishment. If Joe Blow Citizen did what officer Wilson did, they would have not been sequestered by armed personnel and the grand jury would have thrown the book at him, with quicker than a wink kangaroo court trial.
Actually, no. You should really research how these things go, before you make such a claim.
In the northeast and Kali you may get prosecuted for defending yourself with a firearm against a 300lb attacker who tries to drag you out of your vehicle through the window. In America? Not so much.
If you ever doubted how deep the irrational resentment and contempt for LE runs at TTAG, this latest drivel from Farago should remove that doubt. I find it hilarious that an allegedly pro 2nd amendment blog actually referenced a progressive liberal rag like the Washington Post to support this latest delusional TTAG hating on the police rant. If you really want to trash law enforcement why not go all out and reference Al Sharpton and his posse at MSNBC.
The new line of attack Ted. The legal analyst at CNN were doing it first I believe. After it was clear that Darren Wilson was not a racist murderer and that Michael Brown was a violent felon who earned what he got, they had to find something else. Apparently, what they have come up with is well, the shooting may have been justified, but these assholes sure did fuck up the investigation in the aftermath!! The bastards!!!
They, and St Louie PD AND FBI, did f**k it up. And you jacka$4es are defending their gross incompetence. Good job, America haters.
The FBI investigation is still continuing, you fvcking blowhard know nothing.
And St Louis PD? LOL you mean the same organization that hastly put together a incident report half assedly without proper information filled out because they were getting sued by the ACLU for obscuring the event?
LOL
Facts are stubborn things http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/aclu-of-missouri-files-suit-against-st-louis-county-for-records-related-to-michael-browns-death/
Mike Brown is dead because he had a head full of stupid, leftist crap. Just like you. And all the kabuki dance wail&gnashing of teeth will never change that. Young black men are dying in droves because of you and your sick a$$ed anti-human ideology.
LOL “leftist”.
Now that is funny.
If being opposed to a police state is “lefty”, then I guess I’m “lefty” alright. Such brilliant political insights on your part…[facepalm]
” . . . delusional TTAG hating on the police rant. . .”
And so now the blue wall appears in full cry? Looks to me like ‘ole Robert and the unintimidated police professionals, attorneys, and other TTAG informed commenters who post here are hitting a little too close for comfort.
“Al Sharpton and his posse” of which you are a dues paying, card carrying member. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule of spewing anti-American sh*t at HufPo to “enlighten” us, stupid f*ck.
The reaction to the shooting of supposedly angelic young black males in the last two years should have every PD in the nation checking and re-checking their SOP’s and protocols for officer-involved shooting, and those protocols should include a plan to get out ahead of social media and bloggers. This runs counter to the slow, ponderous process that DA’s and detectives prefer (and they prefer those slow, deliberate methods for a good reason), but the current climate (at least until January, 2017) requires it.
Part of the problem in these incidents is that in the period of time when law enforcement is investigating and the DA’s office is pondering the evidence being developed, social media is rushing to fill the void, and 24/7 news channels are vacuum that wants to be filled with some information, even if it is completely false.
Go out into the left wing community and ask people if Brown was shot with his hands up. I’ll wager a nice bottle of single malt that over 50% of the serious wingnuts out there still believe that Brown was shot with his hands in the air, and even while he was on his knees. They’re going to believe this just the way these same wingnuts believe that 9-11 was an inside job by the CIA. How long did it take for the facts to emerge and what did it take to positively refute this belief that has spawned this absurd “hands up, don’t shoot!” meme that’s running throughout the wingnut communities all over the nation? It took the release of the GJ information, including witness statements. The GJ did a good job, the DA’s office did a good job here, but they took too long to refute this one idea that caused so much consternation and outrage, ie, that Wilson shot Brown while Brown was on his knees, with his hands in the air. If that one idiotic notion had been cut down early, we might have seen some very different events transpire this past week.
Now, there’s nothing we can do about the wingnuts – they’re deluded fools and will be until they die. Look at the wingnuts who are still “investigating” JFK’s killing. But the low-information public (and that’s easily over 50% of the public) needs to see the misleading and deliberate twaddle cut down before it becomes “conventional wisdom” and the cost of repudiation becomes so much higher. The cost of waiting to repudiate nonsense in Ferguson has been very, very high.
Part of doing this needs to be tightening procedures and adherence to protocols/procedures so that the wingnuts have no new meme to create of second-guessing the results of an investigation or GJ inquiry. Look at how the idiots are still doubting the Warren Commission Report all these years later – because of a few gaps in knowledge or investigation evidence recording.
I am all for the waging of electronic warfare. Problem is you have to crush the enemy. Utterly. Without warning or mercy. Americans are not real big on that. They wait until thousands are dead, energy production and agriculture are devastated and the nation is in shambles. See the problem here?
“Angelic black young men” is a strawman.
So is your puzzling rants about conspiracy theories. Wingnuts may have “the bush administration did 9/11”, but conservatives have the loving embrace of nutfiddlers like Jerome “Obama is a kenyan” Corsi and “Sandy Hook was a obama administration false flag” and any other such nonsense. Not to mention the fact that violence and bombings by right wing extremists have outpaced muslim extremists in the US by a long shot.
And the Warren commission!? LOL. Thats a parable of shining credibility right there (never mind Douglass’ book ripped its credibility to shreds)!
What stinks the most about Furgeson is a previous pattern of behavior before Brown was shot. I have already linked it above, so dont believe for one moment wilson is a knight in shining armor wearing his holy badge with pride to right all wrongs.
But what do you expect when you have the war on drugs, the justice system centered around punishing (and punishing different colors more harshly than others, not to mention socioeconomic classes), and militarized police that look for any excuse to test their new toys and obtain the budget for them?
The saddest thing is that unless it is a white, middle class gun owner getting shaken up by the cops for open carrying, or because some anti-gun fvckwit called the cops on them scared, nary a shit is given about the heavyhandedness of police and their enthusiasm to use force. Hypocrites.
“If that one idiotic notion had been cut down early, we might have seen some very different events transpire this past week.”
Though it may be idiotic, that is not the “smoking gun” sort of speak.
What pissed people off was Furgeson PDs less than forthcoming attitude, and the fact that they have been proven previously to lie through their fvcking teeth.
The fact that the ACLU had to sue for the release of a incident report from St Louis PD, not Furgeson PD albeit, and that they didn’t immediately release it because they didn’t do it either, is telling of behavior that is absolutely unacceptable for public servants.
Lets keep some perspective here.
Let me help you out LC. A violent felon attacked a police officer, tried to take his weapon, and was killed. That’s it, that’s all. All of your ranting, your internet tough guy bullshit and name-calling is meaningless. I will give you some advice for free, because you seem like a great guy. You might want to confine your blustering to sites like this one and never do it in person. It is possible you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and end up getting your mouth stomped shut for you. Michael Brown is dead because he was an idiot, not because all cops are racists.
Let me help YOU out
We live in America, where you can be a shitbag violent felon, and if you get shot, there is still legal precidence to be taken even if you deserved every bit of it. Its called due process. Look up that term sometime.
You are somehow delusional enough to believe that this shooting was a single incident in Furgeson and “everything was just fine beforehand, by golly!”.
Well, no. things werent fine before hand. As I previously linked, Furgeson has a rather lengthy pattern of misconduct and lies. What else is new. You apparently were “astute” enough to notice my swearing, but not fvcking smart enough to read the evidence I have provided. Puzzling.
And I DO talk to people here the same exact way in real life, and gladly maintain the same composure outside the internet. Tough shit. I have the bite to back up my harsh words.
“It is possible you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and end up getting your mouth stomped shut for you.”
And im the “internet tough guy”? LOL.
Im fairly certain such an endeavor would result in a outcome unfavorable for the other party…such as me, say, wearing other party’s fvcking teeth on a necklace. Afterall, the right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose, even if my words irritate you enough to want to lay hands on me. Thats not a threat. Thats my escalation of force dynamic, which is summarized as, “we both keep our hands to each other, or you see the inside of an ambulance”.
“Michael Brown is dead because he was an idiot, not because all cops are racists.”
While I was the first to say a while ago that Brown was indeed a idiot, to simply dismiss racism as a symptom is called “denial of evidence”.
The “angelic young black men” is indeed a strawman, but it is one created by the press, who want to paint their deaths in a racial agenda, rather than the simple fact that they were both thugs. I didn’t create or propagate the “gentle giant” meme, nor the trope that “he was headed to college this fall” idea as a defense against the results of his actions.
The simple evidence left behind by both Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown shows that they were both well on their way to being street thugs. In the case of Brown, the press kept repeating the idea that he was “a gentle giant.” I can think of at least one shop owner who might disagree with the first of those pejoratives.
I never asserted that Wilson was a “knight in shining armor.” I’m quite familiar with the record of the Ferguson (NB my spelling – it is the correct one) PD, as well as many other PD’s in the St. Louis area. They’re hardly paragons of public servant virtue. But the facts generated by forensics in this case are quite simple: Brown played a stupid game. He won a stupid prize as a result.
We’re not about to clean up police corruption in the US by spreading lies and misinformation, and that’s what the left loves to do: distract from actual facts to further their agenda, which usually has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
The left wing agitator groups have seized upon this incident to piggy-back their agenda, and their flags can be seen flying over more than a couple of the “protests” being staged around the country. This week, we’ve had “die-in’s” at several malls around the country, as well as other blockages of lawful commerce for Christmas shopping at shops and stores. What does this have to do with the death of Michael Brown? Nothing. It is pure left-wing agenda conflation for their own purposes. Who is doing the protesting? Some mighty spoiled looking white kids, which is the typical demographic of lefties in both Europe and the US.
And What we have is the have NOTS against the HAVES (worked for what they have) against the (you owe me)……The Bible (God says a man who will not work) will die of his own hand (causes)…………
My take on the whole Ferguson mess:
P.O.S. A-Hole Cop and a P.O.S. Thug get in to it in a P.O.S. town. One rightly killed the other. Had things turned out the other way, I don’t think that the world would really be that worse off. Social Media has proven what we all learned playing Gossip in kindergarten, a story will be twisted when passed around from 2nd, 3rd, and even further removed sources. Add to this a poor area, a corrupt PD and city hall, and a growing social awareness that a fair number of cops are little better than jack booted thugs themselves. And then you throw in the folks that are just looking to make trouble, and what do we end up with?
A even larger P.O.S.
IMHO, that sums it up.
Thats basically the sum of the entire debacle. There are no good guys, with the exception of the innocents caught in the middle of the violence.
A shit city is going to have generally shit citizens, shit leadership, and shit police officers. Surprise.
PS If anybody is from furgeson and offended, I really dont care. Stay the fvck out of my slice of heaven.
I wish reporters like this would do some research into the issue they are reporting. This article should be titled “‘RobertFarago botches article”
First, Ferguson PD did not investigate this shooting, Sf Louis Co Sheriff did. Ferguson are not going to move the body or interview Wilson.
Wilson had a right to an attorney for his interview, and police officers are never interviewed after shootings until they are out of the Hospital. Which Ferguson PD would not have conducted.
Talking to almost any police officer would have shown you this.
Here’s an example of a good cop doing an excellent job:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/28/us/officer-defused-eruptions-as-crowds-grew-volatile.html?_r=0
Lieutenant Lohr appears to be a true peace officer. We need many more like him.
Wilson never denied he shot Brown. Thus, any evidence from blood on his hands is moot. I’d wash my hands, too. I’d want to get it off my body as soon as possible. I don’t want my skin absorbing who-knows-what.
So what that he checked his own gun into evidence. It was THE gun. All this Monday-morning-quarterbacking/hindsight 20-20 analysis is for lawyers to get more $$ in a lawsuit. Nothing to do with what actually happened.
We, (the people), tend to get sidetracked into issues and “facts” that are really not relevant. Such as, mistaking a “procedure” for an absolute. Yeah, there are many studies that show we revert to our training under stress. However, like all studies and statistics, there is that “margin of error”. Doesn’t mean anyone is trying to hide/cover-up.
USMC69: We, (the people), tend to get sidetracked into issues and “facts” that are really not relevant. Such as, mistaking a “procedure” for an absolute. Yeah, there are many studies that show we revert to our training under stress. However, like all studies and statistics, there is that “margin of error”. Doesn’t mean anyone is trying to hide/cover-up.
If anything at all is to he learned from this mess, it’s that these minor details do matter. No one expected this to turn into what it has. It took days before there was really a mass outcry. It goes to show that, be you cop of everyday person, before you pull a trigger, even if you are right in doing so, make DAMN sure you are in the right. And just as importantly, after its all said and done, make DAMN sure you follow the letter of the law( or in this case procedure.)
You never know what it will turn into.
One note, why the hell do urban yutes feel obligated to walk in the middle of the street?
This is one of the most thoughtful columns I’ve read from Robert Farago, and that’s a compliment, not snark. My career as leo and leo trainer (including working in a small “ghetto” community) informed me that Wilson was probably justified in shooting Brown, but like Farago wrote, the whole process that occurred from the time Wilson’s gun cooled to the time the DA announced the GJ decision, stinks, and Wilson was hardly a model of how officers should have handled this situation from the very beginning.
I watched this in the media closely, and the way the PD chief and city govt responded and the words they used, indicates a clear institutional racism in the Ferguson govt. People must understand that racism doesn’t require that anyone “hate” black people. It can be institutional racism if the city govt/PD think black people are disposable, that they are criminal-prone and reflexively lazy, excitable, liars. The ferguson city response hinted at an attitude that they thought this was “just another killing of a young black thug, nothing to see here folks, let’s move along now.” When your constituency is 70% black, that’s a tone-deaf response, and the signal that the city govt/PD need new leadership who understand what kind of community they serve, not merely govern.
Are you suggesting, since Ferguson is 70% black, that different rules (and attitudes) apply there than in other cities or communities? If much of the town’s population consists of thieves and thugs, as seems to be evidenced by the behavior of much of the town’s residents (yes, there are many imports there, but they too seem to be welcomed by the residents), should average theft, assault and other crimes not be considered crimes, just because they are common and average? An interesting approach you have, sir. So Wilson should have addressed the thug in the middle of the street politely, being conscious of the thug’s sensitivities that forced him to be a thug? Really?
How come EVERYONE has missed the REAL PROBLEM and the ONLY REAL ANSWER for AMERICA… Black Ca. leader and pastor J.L. Peterson HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD when he said justice served in Ferguson , Mo. BROWN not raised properly , or trained to SERVED GOD… THERE is the ANSWER to EVERY problem in America , no if’s ands or BUTTs… CHRIST IS THE ONLY REAL ANSWER , two roads REPENT or BE DAMM …..
Comments are closed.